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Thursday, July 10, 2008
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
McCain and Post-Racial Politics
by Ken Blackwell
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On July 16 Senator McCain will address the NAACP at its national convention in Cincinnati, Ohio. It will give him a historic opportunity to lay out his vision for individual empowerment, and offer concrete solutions for solving the challenges facing many African-Americans today.

For all the talk of post-racial politics, the Obama camp tries to make his campaign all about race when he speaks to African-American audiences.

When campaigning for Rep. Harold Ford of Tennessee for a U.S. Senate seat in 2006, Senator Obama off-handedly told an audience of African-Americans at a rally that they needed to vote for Mr. Ford because Mr. Obama was lonely in the U.S. Senate. There already were 45 Democrats in the U.S. Senate. Mr. Obama claimed to be lonely because he was the only African-American in the Senate. He was asking those voters to cast their votes in large measure on the basis of racial pride.

Mr. Obamas surrogates will attempt to do the same thing at the NAACP convention. They will urge NAACP members and others to vote for an African-American for president largely out of racial pride. But is that sufficient reason alone to cast this important vote?

Mr. McCains challenge is to redefine that choice. He must make the case that every Americans vote, regardless of their skin color, should be based on who is the better candidate. He must challenge them to rise above racial politics. He must urge the attendees to cast their votes from a forward-looking perspective of what is best for all Americans.

There are several policies he can advocate that would make that challenge.

The first is school choice. Many public schools have failed our children. Unfortunately most of those schools are inner-city ones filled with African-American children, where standards are low, discipline is lax, and the dropout rate is high. School choice enables parents to choose a school that will best educate their child. The key to economic prosperity and a brighter future is through giving children a first-rate education, not mindlessly throwing money at an ineffective public school system that fails to deliver. The success of Washington, D.C.s school voucher program proves this.

The second is energy independence. High fuel prices hit lower-income minority communities hard because they feel the price increases more than many. Mr. McCain must press his full-spectrum energy agenda, including everything from domestic exploration and refining to nuclear power to wind and solar to cars that do not use gasoline. He must make the case that this will drastically reduce fuel prices, and create millions of new jobs.

The third is health care. Mr. McCain must make the case for tort reform, empowering doctors and overhauling the health care industry to focus on families and individuals, and how this will provide better and less expensive medical care than government run health care.

Fourth is retirement security. Mr. McCain should make the case that expanding health care savings accounts and reforming Social Security will enable every African-American to own their own retirement as private property. By adding stocks, bonds, and other investments a comfortable retirement plan can be established, and the remaining assets can be passed to their children to build family wealth across generations.

And finally is national security. Mr. McCain must make the case that the chief task of the president is to protect this nation, and all Americans must vote for the person most capable of protecting their children and giving them a safer world to inherit.

These all work to empower African-American families. By strengthening families to responsibly raise their children and look to their own future, Mr. McCain can make the case that he should be the next president.

Although Mr. McCain cannot win the African-American vote in this election, he can get a respectable percentage. He first will receive points for showing up in Cincinnati, and if he makes the case that his agenda is what will best address African-Americans concerns and safeguard the nation he can close the deal with some.

The presidency is far too important to allow insufficient considerations to determine our vote. We must vote for the person who is best qualified to lead our country. We must vote for the leader who has the strength and the wisdom to keep our nation safe and the vision to successfully deal with the challenges we face.

The NAACP convention provides Mr. McCain the opportunity to demonstrate he is the candidate of post-racial politics in America.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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and not only a speech
but McCain is likely to take questions, if he's allowed the time, until the last hand is raised. It was John McCain talking face to face with College men and women in New Hampshire that convinced me he was the candidate who should be our next President. Besides other good qualities, he's willing to get right in amongst people and listen.

African-American men
so frequently die before ever collecting Social Security; they work and pay into it for the benefit of old white ladies who outlive everybody.

I hope not so many black men have dropped out of school, nor have received lousy educations, nor believe that owning stocks is "white" as to be unable to see the benefit of changing SS. Unfortunately, McCain is about as articulate as Bush on the subject.

Vote conservative Republicans down the ticket, and give McCain a Congress that will change SS to individual ownership.

naacp
maccain is a veteran, he's used to speaking in from on all groups of people. that is a part of his military background. i'm sure he will do a great job. not all blacks or people of color are monolithic. you must remember historically, prior to the late 60's and 70's most of the black population was republican. we had some great examples in the party, abe,ike, and even nixon and reagan. they had their faults, but they were sincere in their republican ideas. maybe mccain can stir some back to the repub party way of doing things. i look forward to hearing his speech. i just hope he can deliver it with a great sincerity and credibility. i love politics.

If its a good reason
for a black person to vote for Obama because he is black, it is certainly ok for a white person to vote for McCain because he is white. Blacks are a minority, and becoming a smaller one as Hispanics increase. Racial politics are a loser for them. Blacks succeed where merit is paramount, which is as it should be. Oprah is a great entertainer, Tiger is a great athlete. If racism is in control and white folks are excluded from consideration of their merits because of color, the continuation of racism BY whites will be prolonged. Many white people are not charmed when they learn Obama is asking blacks to vote for him because he is black. It fuels any propensity to vote against him because he is black.

The problem with McCain's ...
energy policy is that he doesn't want to allow for more domestic production. How the heck is he going to sell that?

On a side note, since I was a kid in the early 70's, I've wanted to end anti-social in-security. I'd never thought about the inability to pass on wealth because you don't own it. Now I hate SSI even more!

Being called a racist
gets very old and tiresome within a very short time. I think a lot of people in other parts of the country are beginning to understand what we in the South have understood since the 1970s -- that there is a large core of activist Blacks who have convinced people of hue that all White people are racists and no matter what we do, we cannot change. Someone has to start putting together a 527 ad quoting all the Black and Black Surrogate supporters of the Obamanation using the words Racist and Racism --including the Obamanation himself. Start and end it with that famous quote from Dr. King about his children (who are very racist actually) being judged by the content of their character and not merely their pigment. Then ask the rhetorical question, *Want four more years of being judged by the colour of your skin?*

So Cultural Pride Is For Whites Only?
African Americans have worked hard and long to fully participate in the American electorial process, and to attain at least part of "the American Dream." Whites have always made African peoples color an issue, not black people. African Americans come from a culture - not a color. Color comes along with belonging to that specific cultural group. When you think of an Irish-catholic, you don't generally envision a black person. Their color comes along with their culture. 80% of Catholics voted for John Kennedy - was it racism or was it catholic cultural pride that motivated that vote? Yet when it comes to African Americans, whites seem only to think of this specific cultral group in terms of color only- and they harp on that annoying description "the color of their skin." Black cultural is criticasl to American culture. African American popular culture is the skeletal framework for American popular culture. Black Americans created The Spiritual, The popular ballad, The Charleston: both dance and music, New Orleans Jazz, The Blues, The Big Band Sound, Swing, Gospel Music, BeBop, Contemporary Jazz, Progressive Jazz, Rock and Roll, Rhythm and Blues, the Motown Sound, DoWop, Funk, Disco,and to our dismay Hip Hop. Cultural pride is what is driving African Americans. Did people tell the Catholics not to be proud of John Kennedy, not to make this "breakthrough" for Catholics; and to vote for a protestant because he was the "better" candidate? Kennedy's "breakthrough" election, in part, has led to the Supreme Court being 50% Catholic today. Cultural pride is admirable.

Obama 7, McCain 2
Interesting article. Although I disagree that McCain can get any substantial % of black voters, he can be commended for at least showing up and trying, as he did in Selma earlier this year.
Once again there are more articles about Obama than McCain. I would really like to hear more about why McCain would be so much better than Obama BESIDES the typical liberal/conservative labels that have been used ad nauseum throughout the primaries until now.

So Cultural Pride Is For Whites Only?
@Leslie

I appereciated your posts but I will forwarn you of the onslaught that is sure to follow from many here on TH. Any conversation about race here is largely dismiss as "racism, race-baiting or even Anti- American. I for one commend you and hope you continue with such insightful posts.

Leslie
Who said cultural pride is for whites only? Certainly not me. I am 2 generations away from my German heritage and i still take pride in German achievements and deplore German screwups like Hitler. Couple months ago i vigorously defended Honus Wagner as a better ball player than Joe Dimaggio as proposed by a deluded Italian acquaintance. But cultural pride is a poor criteria for selecting the members of an athletic team, or electing a politician. As for cultural impact, The Tuskeegee Airmen had more impact than the pleasant, but superficial people you mentioned. No one can replace Satchmo, possibly the most influential musician of the 20th century, a marvel of a person. But you open a can of beans unflattering to blacks. Black folks have advanced themselves here and abroad only so far as they have abandoned black culture and accepted white Eurocentric Judeo/Christian values so many blacks profess to denigrate. It is not generally a pretty picture where black culture rules.

It was Richard Nixon..
...that motivated 80% of Catholics to vote for John Kennedy in 1960 - it was not racism or catholic cultural pride that motivated that vote.

RealBlackMan
Good morning. I see you passing on my remark that it is best to be prepared for some disagreement when posting on this site. Could be worse. They won't even let me on Moveon. Freedom of speech carries responsibilities not easily implemented. I find that starting from the position that any poster has good reasons for their opinions helps me keep level. There is never a good reason to sneer. My particlar peeve is seeing expressins like LOL or ROTFLMAO at someone else's view.

Leslie
Nice post.
I would say a couple of things in response. Celebration of cultural heritage is a great thing. I would like to see a country where we consider ourselves Americans. Where we acknowledge that our Irish bretheren gave us stew and the St Paddie's Day Parade (and much besides), our German bretheren gave us streudel (and much besides), our Italian bretheren gave us Pizza (and much besides), our African culture gave us all that you mentioned (and much besides), and so on.

The government, the Supreme Court, and the president, however, should make policy and decisions based not on a segment of our society, not on cultural pride, but on the national interests. Their job is to keep the nation free and prosperous, the laws fair to all, so that as Americans we can all succeed. It would be wrong for policy decisions to be made to favor Irish, German or African.
A rising tide lifts all boats.

Mike Pitzler
Good point. Sen McCain is known for not being afraid to show up and answer questions in venues where most politicians would not go.
He is known for staying til all questions have been asked and answered.

It's one of the sharpest personal distinctions between him and Sen Obama, who tightly controls where he speaks, how many questions he'll answer. For good reason (!).

Right now, Sen Obama has evaded the townhall invitations, and is trying to avoid any sort of debate venue.
He wants to continue pushing his message in speeches (that's getting tiresome).
He is keeping the press at bay by giving them morsels and soundbites, so they are not likely to challenge him.

Does the press realize they are but dupes sitting there taking notes. Meanwhile, the voting public is denied the opportunity to see a debate or a townhall meeting or to ask some tough questions.
We may have an election without debates.

@pistol
You are one of the few that do not fit the description in my post #9. I have also found it very hard for my post to appear on sites like Fox news and Red State. Do be discouraged.

I agree in part with your post about black people abandoning our African heritage but I venture to say that is largely impart to the lack of education on that issue. It starts in the home and sadly many black parents either don't know about their heritage or worse don't care. I think it is a deeper issue that goes beyond home training and education. It goes to the idea that one must assimilate to the dominant culture in order to be successful. Any percieved threat by that dominant culture is look at as radical or extreme and will likely be marginalized.

Leslie
You mention Catholics, but that is not even close to comparable.

Catholics are a group of people for what reason? Their beliefs and morals. Supposedly, they ALL believe in God, they all follow the moral code of the Catholic Church etc etc.

African Americans follow what universal code? Do they all have the same moral compass? There is not a single thing that binds them together, other than their color.

You mention culture, but how many blacks in today's society have lived in a culture other than any other average American?

Your comparison does not compare for those reasons.

What it would compare to, would be:
Everyone with white hair voting for McCain.
Everyone 6'1" voting for Obama.
Everyone born in Hawaii voting for Obama.
etc etc.

None of those have to do with beliefs or policy and neither does voting for Obama because he is black.

RealBlackMan
I would like to ask why you find it so demeaning to assimilate? My heritage is from many parts of Europe, more prominently Germany. I can't think of a single thing in my everyday life that is attributed to my specific heritage. We are each our own person to make our own choices. Does it matter that your ancestors were from Africa or Europe? I don't see how that should affect any decisions you make today.

I would just like your opinion on the matter.

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

CUSTER AT LITTLE BIG HORN

.....Please Ken ...

.....McCain has as much chance of gleaning a black vote at the "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People" as George Custer had of convincing Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, at a Tribal War Counsil, that the white man just wanted to be friends ...

.....I give McCain credit for courage for entering the Bull Ring and hope that he won't be spat upon, as Julian Bond spat upon Bush (figuratively of course) when Bush offered himself up as a pinada for the group ...

.....I used to have youthful hopes that MLK's message would make a difference in race relations ...but those hopes died a long time ago ...I am older, wiser, more jaded and more cynical today ...

.....When will the NAACP decide that their black constituents have reached parity and need no further advancement through quotas and other perks? ...In my opinion never ...or at least ...not until whites get down on their bellies and lick their black feet .....COLOSSUS

Obama Supports Infanticide
This is according to Jill Stanek:

"Barack Obama is so radically pro-abortion he supports infanticide, as evidenced by his active opposition to the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. This makes him further left than any U.S. senator and even NARAL."

It really doesn't matter what he says this week, Obama voted for infanticide when he opposed the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act. No pro-lifer should be fooled into thinking that Obama has changed his position on abortion in general and late-term abortion specifically. No pro-lifer should vote for Obama.

RealBlackMan
About you finding articles on why McCain would be better: You will find none here, for the most part. Many people here aren't even going to be voting for McCain because he is such a bad candidate for conservatives. So, if your looking for that, you should find a more moderate site.

Sunthe1 of 9:31
Obama is just acting like a politician. He is in the lead (or thinks he is, Bradley effect may apply) so why take a chance? LBJ did it to Goldwater, Nixon did it to McGovern and why not Obama. He's a professional politician, through and through. His agenda is get elected. Idealistic folks, bland and white, who vote for him will get a disillusioning lesson. Someone brought uf JFK. My Catholic friends were exstatic when he got elected. "Now we'll see some decent govt by a decent Catholic boy". Inside 2 years, every one of them admitted disappointment. Few remember his Dallas trip was an attempt to bolster his plummeting approval rating which was so low there was talk he would not be the '64 candidate. Maybe Obama will do good, but i doubt it. I don't even blame him entirely. I doubt the congress or the voters would support the things he would have to do to put this country back on its feet.

Oops
Ecstatic, not exstatic. I usually ignore my mistrikes and misspellings as most of the tolerant posters do, but that one looked just awful.

Sdeakins
Sir, i don't think 80% of Catholics could agree on anything except being Catholic. Not that i voted for Nixon, either, so you could be right.

WHY NOT ASSIMILATE?

.....CKHUSTLER ...You asked REALBLACKMAN ...

....."I would like to ask why you find it so demeaning to assimilate?" ....

.....Could it be that he is a racist? ...a racist defined as one who prefers his race above all others ...

.....Actually I don't think that RBM is black at all ...that's why I call him REALWHITEMAN ...I think he is a white Leftist troll who comes to TH to agitate and stir up dissent among conservatives .....COLOSSUS

Tiresome
I find the race issue and Obama very tiring. It continues to be talked to death. Frankly most intelligent and fair minded people could care less what color he is.
What we care about is he's unqualified to be president. Community organizer ? I got a guy who is our block club president. He's a real smart guy. But I wouldn't vote for him to be president.

McCain at the NAACP
I guess McCain will follow Ken Melhman's lead at the NAACP Convention. Last year, Mehlman, the head of the Republican National Party at the time, went before the group and apologized for the Republican Party's Southern Strategy in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s.

That was the strategy to appeal to white southerners, and led to the Republican ascendancy and triumph of conservatives in ecend decaded. Melhman's apology is one of the symbols of the unravelling of the Republican Party under the George Bush, Carl Rove, and Ralph Reed Republican Party, but McCain will probably outdo Mehlman in his appearance.

Hell,he'll probably embrace reparations. But it won't get him any black votes. It will just further alienate McCain from the base of the party and conservatives.

There are no legal grounds for reparations, and quotas, and other racial preferences are unconstitutional. Even the Bakke decision, which ok'd them, admitted that.

If I vote, I'll vote for my fellow Georgian, Bob Barr.

Randy
Yea, lol, by the time McCain leaves, An off the top 10% of your taxes will be reparations.

Randy
and, I do hope you vote. Even if you only vote for Barr. Do not stay home.

RealBlackMan of 9:40
True. Some members of the dominant culture will see any deviation as a threat. This is good and bad, as it is what holds a culture together. Indeed it is what creates a culture. And the bad part is that it also is an obstacle to growth and progress. Once again we are at what i see as the classic liberal/conservative dialog, namely, where do we draw the line? In this case, where is it most productive for black folks to put their efforts? Playing the game, joining the system and putting it to work for them, or trumpeting black culture and demanding it be accorded equal presence and respect? For instance, ebonics. There are no more chauvinistic peoples than the Germans (my background), the Chinese, and the Japanese. We maintain our culture, but at home, and by our life style. The American economy rewards education. We do not insist so-called street smarts is just as good? Japanese do not insist all Americans marry within their race, but their culture maintains a lot of pressure for them to do so. Those folks whose mindset is getting even, rarely get ahead.

"Post racial politics"? Ha!
"Post-racial politics"? Not as long as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and assorted other demagogues are alive and kicking. I fully expect Mr. Obama to play the race card if he gets desparate enough.

Pistol You Are Profoundly Misinformed
Black people have not advanced themselves by "abandoning black culture." It is that very culture that has given them the spiritual impetus to go forward. There are no more Christian people in the western world than African Americans 89-93% of black Americans profess to be Christian. Black America is a church-bsased culture. There is no separation between secular and Christian identity in our culture. Black people have made Gospel music a popular culture art form. Black Americans produce more music about Jesus Christ than any other identifiable ethnic group. The modern day Penecostal movement was spearheaded by a black man. Black America is America-- it's music, it's Christian beliefs, it's perspective. Black Americans have more in common with the Anglo-Saxon Protestants than any other group in America. We have their names, their blood, their DNA. We are Afro/Anglo-Saxon Protestants, and together, despite the circumstances, both groups laid the foundation for this great nation. There is virtually no diffence in our respective cultural way of life. There are more churches per capita in Black American than in other ethnic community. There are also more black mega churches. The civil rights movement was the manisfestation of the collective black churches belief in God and that "God was on our side." that got black people off the back of the bus. It is Eurocentrics who have adopted the African American style(the feminist movement, the gay rights movement), techniques and methodology. Black America is a powerful source of strength,talent and virillity to the rest of the nation - and is fully aware of it.

@ck Hustler
I would like to ask why you find it so demeaning to assimilate?

Assimilating into a culture that has longly held the position that white=good and black=bad is not in our best interest in my opinion. Many steps have been taken to reverse the consequenses of this history (Affirmative Action, Voting Rights Act) and that is to be commended but it always takes a big event before substantial changes are made. Thats my point of view on assimilation.
-----------------------------
Does it matter that your ancestors were from Africa or Europe? I don't see how that should affect any decisions you make today.

To me it shouldn't matter where your ancestors are from. But that is not what American (which evolved from European) culture has taught us. There are inherited advantages to being from that dominant culture whether you'd like to admit it or not. We are all lucky to be in America since it's the greatest country in the world. But in the words of Chris Rock, to Black people America is like the uncle that paid your way through college, but molested you.

Just one man's opinion.

Good morning to you king lib
I'll give pistol and a few others credit for at least trying to have a respectful debate but you are right in your assessment in general. I like to give each person a chance until they prove they don't deserve it (baseballdoc, carlos, and a host of others). I have noticed the rampant close-mindedness of those on these threads but I am no longer surprised. I guess it comes with the territory.

RealBlackMan
I do not see anything pointing to white=good and black=bad. That is you claiming the victim. So far in our American culture blacks have a leg up on the whites, simply for being black. I don't see how our culture portrays blacks = bad and whites = good. The only people I see spouting that off is people like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

If you think Affirmative Action helped black people, you are grossly mistaken. Blacks actually had a higher rate of employment before the law went into place. They had a higher employment rate than the whites even.

I look to the Chinese in America. They had it just as bad as the Africans coming over. The Chinese in California had it very bad, but you know what? They made it. The average Asian in America makes more than the average white in America.

This take on America that we are somehow racist, is simply wrong and an excuse for the blacks in America. The person that sits back and makes excuses for their people will never succeed.

Maggie at 10:04
You couldn't be more right. The race thing is getting so old and so tired. "Empowerment" is a throwback term reminding me of the 1970s and 80s.

I also agree with Ken above -- to me, there appears to be no such thing as post-racial politics. If race doesn't get injected into the debate every week or two, Barack himself brings it up in one of his many traveling campaign speeches. Plus, with Al and Jesse forever trying to grab publicity and spotlight, who is ever allowed to put race aside?

I wouldn't vote for Barack Obama if he were white. Or Asian, or Latino or Swedish. I think he is totally unqualified to be the President of the United States and, in fact, should be compelled to repeat his first term in the Senate since he is hardly ever there anymore.

Leslie
Cultural pride is not something to be ignored or cast aside, it is however a poor choice as the primary reason for casting a vote for a person.

If your views are generally reflected by Mr. Obama, then he should be your candidate regardless of skin color. But if the only reason a person can justify voting for him is skin color it is a poor reflection on both the candidate and the voter.

Likewise as the article pointed out, for a candidate or their supporters to ask for your vote simply based on skin color either says that candidate has little else to offer or they think the voter is too uninformed to understand the issues. Or both.

It is a hazardous path we layout if we justify voting by "cultural identity". If you can justify it then Mr. Obama would stand no chance of being elected. I personally believe he will be elected, he is not my choice but that has nothing to do with him being black, white, green or purple although I still think he wins in November.

@Leslie: Please define 'black culture'.
Technically, I think you may have done so already, at least your view of it. However, that isn't necessarily what is meant by others posting about that. I think they're referring to what might loosely be called 'ghetto' culture (my choice of terms, and now that I've said that, I'll no doubt be accused of being both racist and an anti-semite).

This is a view, perhaps inaccurate but reinforced in popular culture, that the proper 'black' culture is one which refutes and negates anything which smacks of 'white' culture - including, at least as far as some can see, the use of proper english grammer as opposed to 'black english' (I've seen that one before), which I presume, perhaps falsely, would be related to the whole 'ebonics' issue. The 'ghetto culture' mentality is one which also apparently teaches that attempts to pursue higher education, and a solid career, are 'acting white', a group of actions which are generally portrayed as being tabu, and the performing of which is shown as a valid reason for ridicule and ostracism.

Please note that I do not think of this as a purely black/white phenomenon. From what I've read, other countries have the same problems with a 'have' ethnic group and a 'have not' ethnic group - for a member of the 'have not' to behave in the manner of the 'have' always seems to bring down disdain upon the one working to improve himself, unless the culture in question values that kind of improvement. In a predominantly neoliberal culture such as our own, this generally does not appear to be the case.

A Rational Discussion
It's hard to find, but this is a pretty rational discussion. In that spirit, let me add my two cents.

First, repeating unfounded talking points doesn't help anything. If we fail to rise above ingrained, mindless responses, no progress will ever be possible.

Second, it is perfectly possible to have a significant cultural identification (I sing Irish folk songs in March and drink a good deal of Guinness) and still have a tremendous affinity to American culture. Doing so means seeing one's ethnic or racial culture as a part of the overall American culture.

Making progress on racial issues in America requires finding a way to reconcile two mutually exclusive points of view. The first is that black culture in America has some serious pathologies. African Americans have to accept this. The second is that white America still harbors a great deal of racism and is unwilling to accept the validity of black anger and frustration.

If you come to TH, you can easily see evidence of the latter. Go to a liberal site and you see the opposite. Thus far, no one has been willing to make the resolution of this conundrum a significant, public issue.








RealBlackMan: Really?
"I have noticed the rampant close-mindedness of those on these threads but I am no longer surprised. I guess it comes with the territory."

Really? And hue of your skin gives you the "esoteric" insight to judge anyone else? So anyone who doesn't agree with your self-serving devotion to "group-identity" politics (i.e., racial group-debts verses racial group entitlements) in perpetuity is of course "close minded"?

It might dawn on a marginally-intelligent anthropoid like you that trully intellignet individuals see you for what you are- a typical insecure "hyphenated_American" individual who wears his group-identity on his shoulder like a badge of honor IOT compensate for his own personal foibles & failures.

How long have you been inimidated by uppity white people who don't share your sense of entitlement?

RealBlackMan: Really?
"I have noticed the rampant close-mindedness of those on these threads but I am no longer surprised. I guess it comes with the territory."

Really? And hue of your skin gives you the esoteric insight to judge anyone else? So anyone who doesn't agree with your self-serving devotion to "group-identity" politics (i.e., racial group-debts verses racial group entitlements) in perpetuity is of course "close minded"?

It might dawn on a marginally-intelligent anthropoid like you that trully intellignet individuals see you for what you are- a typical insecure "hyphenated_American" individual who wears his group-identity on his shoulder like a badge of honor IOT compensate for his own personal foibles & failures.

How long have you been inimidated by uppity white people who don't share your sense of entitlement?

500 years
If two people develop a deep and/or intimate friendship they discover that they have more in comon than they thought. Afterall, we have been sharing America for 500 years. Many mixtures over time defy the easy stereortypes, and people define their race as they choose, as Obama has done.
That said, many blacks are feeling and will vote their race pride. It is obvious and understandable even though Ken is correct, rationally.

BHO= Empty Suit
BHO is an platitude-spouting “empty suit” marketing package provided by the MSM. BHO used the term “typical white person” as I recall in describing his grandmother’s rational mental connection between certain individuals and their cultural preponderance towards violent crime. How about “bitter, gun toting bible thumpers”? Please understand that BHO first played the race card by using the “Hating Whitey” wing (i.e., Rev Wright) of the Chicago Progressive Political machine to usher his inevitable entrance onto the national political scene. Any individual w/ half-a-brain knows how inner city “victim group identity” politics work. That included “kissing the ring” of the leader (Bill Ayers) of the “Mad Bomber” wing of said progressive political machine. He than had the temerity & arrogance to remain under the personal influence of a bigot for the following 20 years without a clue that it would come back to haunt him.

But don’t worry, "Hating Whitey" is not only deemed socially acceptable by the "Obama-gasmic" MSM, but also quite lucrative as a profession- just ask Rev. Wright and other hyphenated-American poverty pimps who cling to the myth of "black liberation theology." If fact, Rev Wright is in the process of writing a book. This is just conjecture but I would guess that the title is "Hating Whitey for Dummies."

BHO= Empty Suit
BHO is an platitude-spouting “empty suit” marketing package provided by the MSM. BHO used the term “typical white person” as I recall in describing his grandmother’s rational mental connection between certain individuals and their cultural preponderance towards violent crime. How about “bitter, gun toting bible thumpers”? Please understand that BHO first played the race card by using the “Hating Whitey” wing (i.e., Rev Wright) of the Chicago Progressive Political machine to usher his inevitable entrance onto the national political scene. Any individual w/ half-a-brain knows how inner city “victim group identity” politics work. That included “kissing the ring” of the leader (Bill Ayers) of the “Mad Bomber” wing of said progressive political machine. He than had the temerity & arrogance to remain under the personal influence of a bigot for the following 20 years without a clue that it would come back to haunt him.

But don’t worry, "Hating Whitey" is not only deemed socially acceptable by the "Obama-gasmic" MSM, but also quite lucrative as a profession- just ask Rev. Wright and other hyphenated-American poverty pimps who cling to the myth of "black liberation theology." If fact, Rev Wright is in the process of writing a book. This is just conjecture but I would guess that the title is "Hating Whitey for Dummies."

Jack
What solution is possible? We already have hate crimes and Affirmative Action, both of which increase racism. To me a solution would be as such:

Remove any laws pertaining to a race or sex of a person. Meaning affirmative action or the such.

Remove any crime laws that take race above the crime itself. The crime itself should be the punishment, not who the victim was.

Remove the question of male/female and ethnicity from all applications of any kind. That shouldn't factor into hiring, so why have it on there. In fact you could remove all but a very few bits of info for a job, such as resume, #, SS #(if needed for background checks once chosen), possibly address if the job requires a person to live close by or something. Keep only the things that are needed by the employer when they make their decision.

There are some others, but they aren't on the tip of my tongue at the moment and you get my point.

@ck hustler
So in your opinion, the Chinese experience in America is comparable to that of African Americans and that the white people are actually the one's that have a disadvantage?

I learn something new everyday in these posts.

I'll just agree to disagree with you on this occasion.

RBM
You should research how Chinese were treated in America...its pretty close. They were basically slave labor that built our railroads to the west coast, for example. I want to hear of this major racism affecting your life. Because slavery clearly has not affected your life today. So why dwell on the past?

Jack in PA #40
POST OF THE DAY!!

Leslie
Not so much misinformed as misunderstood. I worked in Washington DC for 10 years, i am a member of a church that is about 50% black. The man i most often sat next to was the head of the Pharmacy Department at Howard University. He was a Christian inspiration to me. But my perception is that folks like he and his wife and all the folks i knew at church had assimilated their public life to the dominant American culture which is predominantly Eurocentric. When i speak of black culture i mean that exclusively black set of values which rejects the predominant Christian values of American religion and selects Black Liberation Theology. I mean the culture that rejects scholarship as being white, that for whatever reason looks to govt as the source of goodies rather than merit and application. In so far as black folks embrace those virtues you catalog, my view is that they are embracing the values of American culture. I agree in many cases they lead the way. But American Christianity predates American blacks, for instance. I am not criticizing the black version of American culture, i am criticizing those who reject it.

RealBlackman:Really vs KBlackwell
You too cousins or what?
If the NAACP holds any alliance with the dreams an convictions of the late Dr. Martin Luther King, they well openly greet McCain and his stance on the percieved notion Black Americans' can achieve under their own ability the goal of every American.
Only the trash of Black society, those AFRICAN American's who have no clue who they are but invission where they are going is to the top and lordial rule over America as a despot of so backwater African state.
Mr Blackwell please refer to the true Black leadership as Blackmen of worth and idealism and not AFRICAN Americans.
And what sort of entitlement do you believe the pale colour Americans you so derogitorialy call white owe you and your people. I for one do not owe you anything more than the right to live and succeed under your own merits.
No prefference, no push to the top of a list, no hire because of limits. Let us demand that these limits be applies to the sports your race claims is your only salvation. On an NBA team that means eight of you are out of work.

Jack
"The second is that white America still harbors a great deal of racism and is unwilling to accept the validity of black anger and frustration."

Spare us! I'm forty-one years old and I never went to a segregated school in my life. Thanks to forced busing, I even attended predominantly black schools for a few years. I was the only white boy in my sixth-grade class. Believe me, whites do NOT have a monopoly on racism.

Racial healing has to be a two-way street. If African-Americans want to see whites put aside their prejudices, they'll have to put aside a few prejudices of their own.

King Liberal
"But I sure as heck would like an explanation if not an appology."

I wasn't even born in 1965. Do you expect me to pay for the sins of my ancestors in perpetuity?

CK, Because you are Young
there is still hope. You can still learn. But only if you try.

For example, one thing which you wrote to Realblackman is a great example of what I am trying to say. You wrote: "Because slavery clearly has not affected your life today."

You simply have no basis whatsoever to make this judgement. It is true that YOU don't think it has, but you are not in any position to judge. I would suggest that slavery has dramatically affected the lives of every black American.

If you can't grasp that, you are one of those who can never reconcile those two mutually exclusive view points.

Furthermore, your claim that the Chinese in California had it worse than American slaves is preposterous. It merely shows that you do not grasp the nature of this issue.





Jack
"The second is that white America still harbors a great deal of racism and is unwilling to accept the validity of black anger and frustration."

Jack:
Really? "If you give a mouse a cookie..."


KL
Really? An Apology for what? Either way you are living in the past! What you just described has not been American Culture for nearly 50 years! Are you that stuck that an event 50 years ago is holding you back today?

In the history of the world there has never been a civilization that freed their slaves and have repeatedly apologized like western culture did for the blacks. Do you think Israel should demand reparations from Egypt from what happened in the bible? Or how about throughout history all the trials Israel has had as a people.

If you constantly live in the past, it only holds you back.

Now you mention social conservatives...really...The democratic policies have done more to harm the blacks than any other. You should be complaining about LBJ today instead of the conservatives. The reason racism even exists at the individual level is because of his policies.

King Liberal
In the past, your posts have shown intelligence, education and a decent amount of openness. Since the Obama candidacy you have been as giddy as a 13 year old girl at a rock concert. Get a grip, Sir. I admit i am a fine one to point to mis-strikes, but for mercy's sakes, you don't want to join MRC do you?

Jack
"I would suggest that slavery has dramatically affected the lives of every black American. "

please explain how then...since your extensive experience proves you know.

"Furthermore, your claim that the Chinese in California had it worse than American slaves is preposterous. It merely shows that you do not grasp the nature of this issue."

You should really learn to read my friend, you constantly do this. I claimed they had a very similar experience, meaning about the same...even as recent as WW2 we had internment camps for Japanese. You have no idea of our western history apparently. You should read up on the slave labor done by our Chinese friends in America though.

REALWHITEMAN & QUEEN LIBERAL

.....Are you two going together or just coming together? ....your mutual hand job is embarrassing ...

BTW ...Obama has as much chance of becoming President as I have of breaking the 4 minute mile ...take it to the bank .....COLOSSUS

Ken
The premise of the discussion was that ideas would be presented rationally.

Your exasperated claim, "Believe me, whites do NOT have a monopoly on racism." is just frustration. No here said they did.

Your closing remark is heading in the right direciton. "Racial healing has to be a two-way street. If African-Americans want to see whites put aside their prejudices, they'll have to put aside a few prejudices of their own."

Its true that changes will be required of all. But your phrasing suggests that you are more interested in expressing your anger and frustration than in finding a solution.





Jack: Reality
What would any black PERSONALLY know of what transpired over 400+ years ago? Stop interpreting contemporary society via a Marxist-prism. Ironically, Swahili-speaking Black Muslims in the 11th century invented the modern version of slavery still practiced by modern-day Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa. Additionally, the ASHANTI tribe (the only tribe ruthless enough to stop the northern progression of the ZULU nation) that generally monopolized the slave trade in West Africa had the charming habit of either eating their captives or selling them in slavery. That being said, not a black alive today was a slave; their fathers were never slaves; their grandfathers were never slaves, etc. Get over it. The hue of their skin does not grant them special gravitas or an “esoteric insight” into the nature of reality in general and the human condition in particular. Try going through life w/ a "bill of attainder" hanging over your head in the form of “institutionalized racism”, e.g., anti-white male Affirmative Action/quotas. Additionally, you might be interested to know that Caribbean/West-Indian (YES, of AFRICAN decent) immigrants, sharing the same cultural precepts of hard work, discipline and education as their Asian counterparts, do extremely well in our supposedly “racist” society. General Colin Powell is a fine example.

Reality: Today’s Hyphenated-American’s are victims of the pathologies endemic to radical feminism, the welfare industrial complex & a violent, xenophobic subculture (70% illegitimacy rate, 50% school drop out rate, 25% prison incarceration rate for males, blacks responsible for 90% of all inter-racial violence, etc) more often than they are victims of residual racism.

Jack
"I would suggest that slavery has dramatically affected the lives of every black American."

Many of the black Americans who actually experienced slavery were able to rise above it once they were freed. Are their descendants incapable of doing the same?

Jack: Reality
What would any black PERSONALLY know of what transpired over 400+ years ago? Stop interpreting contemporary society via a Marxist-prism. Ironically, Swahili-speaking Black Muslims in the 11th century invented the modern version of slavery still practiced by modern-day Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa. Additionally, the ASHANTI tribe (the only tribe ruthless enough to stop the northern progression of the ZULU nation) that generally monopolized the slave trade in West Africa had the charming habit of either eating their captives or selling them in slavery. That being said, not a black alive today was a slave; their fathers were never slaves; their grandfathers were never slaves, etc. Get over it. The hue of their skin does not grant them special gravitas or an “esoteric insight” into the nature of reality in general and the human condition in particular. Try going through life w/ a "bill of attainder" hanging over your head in the form of “institutionalized racism”, e.g., anti-white male Affirmative Action/quotas. Additionally, you might be interested to know that Caribbean/West-Indian (YES, of AFRICAN decent) immigrants, sharing the same cultural precepts of hard work, discipline and education as their Asian counterparts, do extremely well in our supposedly “racist” society. General Colin Powell is a fine example.

Reality: Today’s Hyphenated-American’s are victims of the pathologies endemic to radical feminism, the welfare industrial complex & a violent, xenophobic subculture (70% illegitimacy rate, 50% school drop out rate, 25% prison incarceration rate for males, blacks responsible for 90% of all inter-racial violence, etc) more often than they are victims of residual racism.

RealBlackMan
Commendable restrain in yours of 11:30. Quite British, as they say.
But in connection with learning something new, i agree. A person's opinions and perceptions are real. My world works best as i maintain contact with reality. It is not always easy to find what a person really thinks. Perceptions are real, even if based on faulty interpretations or false information. I work with and get along with black folks. Reading some of the bitter comments on TH, it is tempting to wonder what they really think. I lean towards authenticity. My game is basketball. I have received too many obvious heart-felt compliments from black folks who have merely come into my life on a playground, and who could have no ulterior motives. Nevertheless, i am also certain a lot of bitter duplicity takes place.

@ck
The reason racism even exists at the individual level is because of his policies.
------------------
So LBJ is the cause of an individual's false belief that they are superior to another?

I personally do not care to share the many instances of racism that I have faced in my 26 years on this earth. You can call it "victimization" or whatever term you choose but I strongly disagree. I can't claim to know what a white person feels in their heart and you cannot do the same vise versa. I will continue to engage those like Jack and pistol who seem to strive for a solution to our racial problems rather than continue to perpetuate the many stereotypes that are placed on both races. You learn more communicating with an open mind and a agenda of understanding rather than one that is judgmental. Downplaying one person's experience is a symptom that many are guilty of here in these thread but i refuse to respond in kind.

Jack
"Your exasperated claim, "Believe me, whites do NOT have a monopoly on racism." is just frustration."

No, it's just fact. However, I was pretty frustrated when I was the only white boy in my sixth grade class. I tried to be friends with the black kids, but most of them were not interested.

"Its true that changes will be required of all. But your phrasing suggests that you are more interested in expressing your anger and frustration than in finding a solution."

You're the one who's putting all the blame on "whitey." Maybe you're just a racist.

RBM
Really...since I don't agree Im close minded. Well thats a conversation ender ain't it. You seem very close minded to me on the reverse. You claim victim at every turn while blaming whitey for blacks problems.

There is no institutionalized racism against black, but there is against whites. You simply cannot refute that, because it is 100% true and factual. But you can claim victim. I know many blacks who do not claim victim and work hard. Its too bad you have to use a crutch.

Jack: The solution?
Its true that changes will be required of all. But your phrasing suggests that you are more interested in expressing your anger and frustration than in finding a solution.

Really? ADULTS take responsibility for their own personal actions. ADULTS clean up their own respective HOUSE before pointing the finger at any other group. Unfortunately, it's easier to blame "Whitey" in perpetuity.

Perhaps the "solution" is to remove an individual's franchise if they receive some kind of public assistance or entitlement since they have proved that they are incapable of behaving as a self-sufficient ADULT & should therefore not be allowed to vote until they change said behavior.

CK
You write:

I believe I can address two of your quesiotns at once.

You ask how slavery affects black Americans today and you don't seem much difference between the experience of black American and CHinese Americans.

The most obvious point is that black Americans were brought to the US as slaves in chains and the Chinese were not. Hundreds of years of slavery in the New World, something Chinese Americans did not experience, led to decades and decades of exclusions, bias, Jim Crow laws, miscegenation laws, lynchings, political suppression, economic suppression, and cultural suppression. And that's just the start.

Slavery established the very existence of the black culture in America. It has a strong influence in who black people are, what they do, and where they live.

But my point is that you, as a non-black American, are unwilling to recognize this and to make the changes that are under your control to make.





Jack
Lets pick apart some of those things

Brought on ships...sold by Africa
Hundreds of years of slavery...how does that affect them more than a generation of it from the Chinese?
Then you move forward from that...and I won't speak against those as they did happen.

My point is that the Chinese did have it just as bad. Both were slaves. So they started at the same point upon coming to America, yet the Chinese have risen above.

Everything you named happened about 50 years ago or more...so how does that affect them today?

And what changes are under my control to make? You haven't mentioned one solution yet.

RealBalck: Courageous Intellectual
I will continue to engage those like Jack and pistol who seem to strive for a solution to our racial problems rather than continue to perpetuate the many stereotypes that are placed on both races.

So you will only dialogue with those individuals who subscribe to your self-serving sense of entitlement in perpetuity as a hyphenated-American? How intellectually courageous- enjoy your "echo-chamber."

Do you actually know any white people who aren't busy validating your sense of victimhood? It's no wonder that there so few of your ilk in the Science, Technology Engineering & Mathematics (STEM) professions- a sense of entitlement & analytical thinking are mutually exclusive capabilities.

CKHustler 11:13am Post
Your post said:

"I don't see how our culture portrays blacks = bad and whites = good. The only people I see spouting that off is people like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton."

I suggest you read more carefully the characterizations of African Americans posted daily right here on TH. A few are positive but the majority are the "blacks=bad" variety.

"If you think Affirmative Action helped black people, you are grossly mistaken."

AA is not needed as much now but was beneficial and very successful back in the day when hiring managers and higher education officials still practiced racism and bigotry and was necessary in breaking down solid barriers that prevented progress for African Americans.

"Blacks actually had a higher rate of employment before the law went into place. They had a higher employment rate than the whites even."

Yeah, but employed doing what? Making a couple of dollars a day in the field? Washing and ironing clothes? Working the bottom factory jobs that nobody else wanted? AA specifically addressed the need to improve the quality of employment (and educational) opportunities for African Americans.

"I look to the Chinese in America. They had it just as bad as the Africans coming over."

Republicans must stop ignoring blacks
Good article, but it failed to address one topic McCain can and should capitalize on; abortion. Obama is a radical pro-abortion Senator who opposed parental notification laws, bans on partial birth abortion and while in Illinois, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which would require doctors to provide medical assistance to babies who survive abortion. McCain should focus on the fact that a disproportionate number of abortions are on black women. In other words, a disproportionate number of black babies are being aborted. Clearly, those black women are responsible for their "choice", but abortions are targeted toward the poor and those in the inner cities.

Bobbie
Right here on TH? Almost all of the posts from TH conservatives towards blacks are that they should be treated the same as whites. Is that racism?

Im going to need to see extensive examples from your black=bad variety to change my mind. I have read TH for over a year now and you are grossly mistaken.

Jack
"Slavery established the very existence of the black culture in America. It has a strong influence in who black people are, what they do, and where they live."

You never answered my question. Many of those who actually experienced slavery and Jim Crow were able to rise above those factors. Are their descendants incapable of doing the same?

Jack
I'm not sure that your assertion that "white America" still harbors a great deal of racism is accurate. If that were the case I believe you would find us discussing Hillary or John Edwards as the Democrat's nominee. That is not to say racism no longer exists, it always will as long as there are at least two races in the world, simply that racism is not nearly what it was even 40 years ago.

As to an unwillingness to accept the validity of "black" anger and frustration, is this anger and frustration something that is inherently "black" and cannot be felt by others? Is it something that literally all "blacks" feel, or is it reserved for only some? And at what point has enough time passed that this "black" anger and frustration can no longer be justified, or should society as a whole be expected to accept it indefinately?

The statement you made could indicate a person has little respect for either "white America" or "black America". It says whites are racist, but they can't help themselves, it's just the way they are, and blacks are angry and frustrated but they can't help themselves either, it's just the way they are. Now I don't believe these to be true and I honestly don't think you do either.

@ck
I will refrain from calling you close minded in the future as it does seem you are trying to understand where I am coming from but in my opinion you take my positions to the extreme. I have never blamed "whitey" for any problem I have come across in my life. I have simply pointed out my experiences and the history of discrimination in this country. It is your perogative to call that "being the victim" but that doesn't register in my book. I can no more downplay your experience than you can mine.

I agree that many people do use race as a crutch but I do not fall into that category. I have succeeded in every aspect of life IN SPITE of the obstacles I have personally faced. I do not blame the white man for every ill in the black community but to deny that fact that the dominant culture has had a substantial negative affect on my community is not an intelligent position to me. That does NOT absolve the fact that the my community has fallen short in the responsibility department on many occasions.

Bobbie
"The ratio of the average black workers' earnings to the average white workers' earnings increased significantly in the 1940s, increased slightly if at all in the 1950s, increased significantly between 1960 and the mid 1970s, and declined somewhat since the late 1970s. (13)"

There is your earnings gap for it as well then.

http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa03.html

LeRoy - African American Culture Is...
Part I --African American culture is almost a mirror of Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture, but influenced by the African origins of it's peoples, and shaped by it's experiences because it's peoples were/are black. Enslaved Africans, many of whom set aside the practice of witchcraft and pagan worship, were consciously aware of what they were doing by becoming Christian. Though separate, black culture was led by the white Anglo-Saxon Protestant in the formation of it's cultural folkways, cultural worldview, and the devolpment of it's church denominations. Yet also, because of segregation,it kept it's African influence and rhythm of expression. American Black culture is a fusion of the two worlds. Nevertheless, being the only entity fully owned and supported by black people, the church became the center of black life and culture. Since the sixties, politics and popular culture have negatively impacted both black and white America. Simultaneously, there sprung up a black middle class. This was largely due to the efforts of the black church. Education has always been encouraged, fostered, and underwritten by black churches. Today you can clearly see the success of those efforts. It is overwhelming the children of the churched who hold BA, MA, and Ph.d. degrees in black America.

LeRoy : African American Culture Part 2
Over the course of the past 45 years around 53% African Americans have joined the middle class. There are now two black Americas--one middle class; the other a combination of working class and underclass. The old Christian cultural way is still practiced in middle class black America, and much of the working and underclass communities. However, middle class black America considers itself and it's folkways to be the legitimate definitive cultural authority for all of black America - not entertainers, sports stars, movies nor TV sitcoms. It considers misogynous Hip Hop to be a counter culture and politicians "a necessary evil." Did you notice, not once did I mention Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrahkan nor the term "ghetto." Black American culture vigorously feels that it should not be filtered through three career activists nor ascribed stereotypic terminology.

Bobbie
Seperate schools until 1970? Where in 1970 was segregation still enforced?

And yes, in the mid-late 1800's they were abused because of their skin color and the "funny way" they dressed, talked and acted. If the Anglos in America had been so tolerant of these people there would not be a China Town in nearly every large city on both the West and East coasts.

RBM
The reason I frown upon how many blacks look upon racism is because they are never looking at current events. It always goes back to slavery and civil rights. 80% of the blacks today weren't even alive for the civil rights movement. In todays society blacks have just the same opportunity as any other race in America. I look to middle-easterns for this example. Currently, I can't think of another race that is affected more by racism than them right now since 9/11, yet they are still here succeeding. Getting a higher education, starting companies etc etc. They probably make more than the average white man as well, but that I do not know for sure. In America today it is all up to what you personally want to do, yet whenever I hear of racism it is always going back to before 1965 and never today. How are we supposed to move forward as a society if many blacks are still living in 1965?

This is Bobbie.....
CKHustler, you asked....
"Right here on TH? Almost all of the posts from TH conservatives towards blacks are that they should be treated the same as whites. Is that racism? Im going to need to see extensive examples from your black=bad variety to change my mind. I have read TH for over a year now and you are grossly mistaken."

As per your request, I just happened to have saved a post by Skip(??)that I thought was one of the most offensive I've seen on TH. However, there have been several others that can compare with this nitwit in venom.

Skip
“With the exception of those that have gone to Iraq to fight all we have is a nation of cowards that would try to talk an enemy to death and I beleive that this half-breed n----r will be the first to run”.

True racist to his confederate flag-waving heart.




“With the exception of those that have gone to Iraq to fight all we have is a nation of cowards that would try to talk an enemy to death and I beleive that this half- breed n----r will be the first to run”

MsDiva
That is one...I never said racism didn't occur here, but to say that that majority of us are racist, or even a large minority. There are racists on both sides of the political isle. I know of a couple liberals that won't vote for Obama simply because he is black. That still doesn't make your statement true. I have read here long enough to know that racism does not happen very often on TH. This gotcha ploy will not work.

LeRoy-African American Culture Is Part 2
Over the course of the past 45 years around 53% African Americans have joined the middle class. There are now two black Americas--one middle class; the other a combination of working class and underclass. The old Christian cultural way is still practiced in middle class black America, and much of the working and underclass communities. However, middle class black America considers itself and it's folkways to be the legitimate definitive cultural authority for all of black America - not entertainers, sports stars, movies nor TV sitcoms. It considers misogynous Hip Hop to be a counter culture and politicians "a necessary evil." Did you notice, not once did I mention Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrahkan nor the term "ghetto." Black American culture vigorously feels that it should not be filtered through three career activists nor ascribed stereotypic terminology.

KL
Really? Why? Because there was racism for those 100 years! obviously! Are you that stupid?

But in the last 50 years can you explain then why all that was removed...since I answered yours, its your turn.

Why were those things removed and in the past 50 years there has been no racist laws except against whites.

Pride?
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the fall.

@ck
The reason I frown upon how many blacks look upon racism is because they are never looking at current events. It always goes back to slavery and civil rights. How are we supposed to move forward as a society if many blacks are still living in 1965?
--------------------------------
I disagree with your line of thought. The problem is many incidents that happen today (Diallo murder by NYPD, uncounted number of blacks released from prison by DNA, Jena 6 to name a few) are very similar to how things were in 1965. Back then racism was easily spotted and on display. Now it is more behind the scenes and demonstrated in the form of police brutality, discrimination in the housing market and the like.

Dont get me wrong, things are MUCH better than they were 40 years ago for black people but there still is not an equal playing field in my book. Discussions like this help to heal the divide and im actually pleasant surprised that its been able to take place in a respectful manner, for the most part.



RBM
Discrimination in the housing market and police brutality?

See, I don't agree with either. There are many times that a white person gets beat by policemen, but you don't hear people claiming it was because he was white. Police must handle people as if they are armed and dangerous, or that one that is will attack. I haven't researched those specific examples above, but I do know it is not widespread that police brutality happens to any race, including white.

Housing discrimination, I don't see it at all. The housing market is a private sector and not owned by any business, but owned by people. Im going to need some explaining on how that is occuring.

You are taking some examples and basing them on race, when I don't believe the outcome was affected by race in the least. Just because a person gets shot by the police and happens to be black, doesn't mean its racism. Im sure I could find a similar case, except the person was white that was killed. Why blame it on race first?

RBM
"uncounted number of blacks released from prison by DNA"

I take something like that to prove that we aren't racist. We found that they were innocent and let them free.

I applaud McCain
As a black man in the military and one who holds a gradute degree, I respect McCain and I hold conservative views on some issues. The problem is not with McCain, it is with the Republican Party. Blacks are not elected to office as Republicans and although Bush selected blacks to important positions, they really have had no significant impact on policy. The Republicans threw Gen Powell under the bus, and Ms. Rice has been insignificant as NSA and SOS. The hostility toward blacks by the Republicans (consistently displayed in these townhall post)is another reason blacks don't support Republican candidates. I am from Columbus, OH Mr. Blackwell and black folks out there are still bitter about the 2004 election and they blame you first and foremost. I respect McCain, his service to this nation and his effort to reach out to black voters, but blacks just can't relate to the Republican Party. Mr. Blackwell, your failed governatorial campaign and Micheal Steele's failed Senate campaign show that white Republicans will not vote for black candidates. If blacks would have crossed over and voted Republican for you or Mr. Steele in masses and put you gentlemen over the top, they would be considered racist by white democrats. So blacks are not in a favorable position either way.

Man, Get Lunch and Look What Happens
CK, you indicate you are a somewhat active reader of history. Yet, you seem to think that History for black men and women should only go back to 1965.

Try the Tuskegee Airmen on for size. Many They had to fight their way into the service. They were trained in segregated facilities. But ultimately, they performed very, very well and saved the lives of thousands of their fellow fliers, mostly white men.

Yet when they returned to the US, they couldn't get into the restaurants they wanted to; they couldn't stay at the hotels and motels they wanted to. They couldn't even drink from the same waterfountains as white folk. They could be attacked with relative impunity for daring to approach a white woman.

Here's the catch. Many of those men are still alive, and most of their children are still alive today. Yet you, a 21 year old, dare to tell them how they should feel about America?

That 50 year mark you keep using probably seems like a long time to you. But that isn't because 50 years is a long time. It is because you are so young. You get some slack for being so young: you get no slack for refusing to expand your worldview.

CKHustler
"I never said racism didn't occur here, but to say that that majority of us are racist, or even a large minority."

Read your discussion with MsDiva and thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in.

You are correct that the majority of the cons who post on TH don't appear to be racists. Quite the contrary, some offer very frank discussions designed to increase the understanding and knowledge of our two cultures that have joined to form the American culture and produced the greatest country on earth.

But the fact remains that TH does have an abundance of posters who seem to relish the opportunity to denigrate African Americans whenever possible and do so routinely.

@ck
Discrimination in the housing market and police brutality?
---------------------
There have been numerous studies proving that many minorities with similar credit ratings as their white counterparts have been denied access to majority white neighborhoods.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2007/09/minorities-face-mort gages.html
http://www.realestatejournal.com/buysell/markettrends/20060 918-mcmullen.html


http://www.sunsonline.org/trade/process/followup/1998/07090 798.htm
http://media.www.dailycampus.com/media/storage/paper340/new s/2003/10/16/Commentary/Police.Brutality.Strikes.Minority.C ommunity-530543.shtml

I agree that the police have a very difficult job and most of them are stand-up people. But there is a wide gap in cases of brutality against minorities compared to whites. It seems that you are trying to dismiss any claim of racism brought to the forefront and instead make excuses for why it happens. I don't think everything is about race but when the facts line up to suggest racism is an issue, you seem unable to admit that is the case.

Ken
you arite: "You're the one who's putting all the blame on "whitey." Maybe you're just a racist."

This is a perfect example of what I am saying. I am not putting all the blame on whitey. In fact, I specifically said that black culture has some serious pathologies. But despite what I actually said, you interpret anything that suggests majority American still has some racial animosity to mean I am "putting all the blame on whitey."

My point all along has been that both sides need to abandon their knee jerk reactions and talking points. Your response is a knee jerk reaction.

Leslie
I appreciate your analysis of "black" American culture.

I believe if you talked to people in "white" America you would also find that they believe Hollywood and atheletes do not represent them either.

This does not address the issue of voting for someone based solely on skin color.

I believe that Mr. Obama will recieve the "black" vote in even higher proportions than would be seen only by him being Democrat. When this polling data comes out it will be refered to as identity politics. If McCain were to receive the "white" vote in the same percentages, (he won't, but if), it would be called something else and that term wouldn't be at all flattering.

And for what it's worth the "r" is lower case in the name, Leroy. Also thanks for the civil tone.

Big Fred77
Vote Obama because he is black. How can republicans have a black candidate when as a black republican the attacks from the left is the candidate is not representative of the black experience.

Powell was suspect for his STANCE on abortion. Not the color of his skin but the content of his political philosophy.

Ms. Rice is not respected???????

Republicans are not the only ones who vote in campaigns Mr. Steele had a smear campaign run just before the voting.

Take a look further back in your history and find the courage and dignity the people had for themselves. There are so many inspiring stories yet democrats want blacks to focus on how much they need government for progress.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jackie Robinson and George Washington Carver are examples for all of us white and black for overcoming what others want to do for us.

Real Black, Leslie, ETAL, if you want to
understand what "American Black Culture" really means, read Dr. Thomas Sowell's book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals". You may have to re-think what you thought you knew about where "Black Culture" comes from.

Are there racists in America, certainly! But they are not all white, they are from every race and are racist against every other race. It is the history of the human race to be racist until rational thought is allowed to override emotions.

As for police brutality, do you know that the attitude of black officers towards other blacks is very similar to the attitude of thier white coworkers? Do you know why that is? Please don't say it because they are "Uncle Toms", that is simply a copout.

CKHustler
RBM
"uncounted number of blacks released from prison by DNA"

"I take something like that to prove that we aren't racist. We found that they were innocent and let them free."
____________

The fact of the matter is that most of these unfortunate black folk released were wrongly incarcerated in the first place due to racial injustice, the color of their skin.

We'd have to dissect each case for proof but remember Lenell Jeter? A professional black man arrested in a Dallas suburb for robbing a fast food restuarant and served two years in prison although his employer verified he was at work during the time of the robbery.

Legal injustice aimed at blacks have occurred frequently through the years with numerous examples available.






@ck
I take something like that to prove that we aren't racist. We found that they were innocent and let them free.
----------------------
You may be a lost cause but I'll still try one last time to see if you can be sensible. The point Im making is they should never had been arrested much less convicted. The fact that they don't even keep the stats on wrongful convictions is more evidence to support my argument. DNA evidence leaves no doubt and anything less than a release would be criminal. That goes to my point that little is done in regards to race relations until a tragedy strike.

Most of those cases were brought forth with little or no evidence and were black males convicted of crimes against whites in argely white areas. Dallas county is a prime example.

It seems by your posts that you are not capable of admitting any wrongdoing on the part of our legal system and governments policies. I am not saying you are the guilty one but the policies and activities of many of our tax-backed organizations are. Don't take it so personal and try to be objective.

Rich Not Wealthy
"As for police brutality, do you know that the attitude of black officers towards other blacks is very similar to the attitude of thier white coworkers? Do you know why that is? Please don't say it because they are "Uncle Toms", that is simply a copout."

You may be somewhat correct in your assertion above when black cops are dealing with violent black criminals (i.e., gang members, etc).

Where I believe the line is drawn is that black cops do not view the ordinary black citizen as a criminal first and citizen second as a number of white cops routinely do. To protect yourself does not mean you have to degrade a person because of his economic status or race.

ck
I do not agree with the idea that since Obama recieved a large majority of the black vote that equals racism on the part of those blacks voting for him. It is true that blacks have historically supported (D) since the 60's regardless of the race of the candidate. I know some people will simply vote based solely on race but that goes both ways and are in the minority.
The larger issue to me is why the (R) party is viewed the way that it is. You can blame it on leftwing smear campaigns or black people's deeply held racism but that simply is not the case. Black people as a whole are a prideful people and the possibility of someone like Obama could become POTUS is exciting and not expected by the majority in our community.

I suspect I will recieve many remarks about it's ok for blacks to be racists but not ok for whites and nothing could be further from the truth. The racial issue in America cannot be simplified into "gotcha" moments and simple minded ideologies.

adding to lionhearts point...
As for police brutality, do you know that the attitude of black officers towards other blacks is very similar to the attitude of thier white coworkers? Do you know why that is? Please don't say it because they are "Uncle Toms", that is simply a copout."
------------------

There also is a widely known policy known as the "police code of silence" that is rampant among police departments all over the nation. That policy does not just apply to white cops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence

Thank You Allen
for informing me of my history (although, I didn't need it). You failed to address why white republicans won't vote for black candidates. As far as your beef with democrats on this issue, I won't dispute that, but the fact remains that blacks have to vote in masses to achieve anything within the political process. As far as Gen Powell being thrown under the bus, he was made to look foolish as he made the case for war with faulty intelligence. He disagreed with the administration on several issues and if he wouldn't stepped down, he would have been forced out. As far as the abortion thing goes, I guess thats just conservative justification. White conservative pro abortion candidates have been elected and selected to office within the Republican Party. As far as Ms. Rice goes, she is by all accounts the least relevant NSA and SOS ever, plain and simple.

Obama the Race-Baiter
If Obama were anything other than a race-baiter in the tradition of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, he never would have said the following: “They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?”
So, if he walks like a race-baiter, and talks like a race-baiter, then...
Because with rabbit ears like his, he sure ain't no Jackie Robinson.
In fact, Mr. Obama could not carry J-Robs jock strap. Besides once Jesse is done with him he won't need a j-strap anyhow!

How about addressing the points
made by the columnist, Ken Blackwell? I haven't read one post that addresses the five suggestions that John McCain should focus on in order to help black families. School choice for failing blacks in innercity schools anyone? How about energy independence for America since the rising prices hurt the poor and black families disporportionately. Do we need tort reform as a way of lowering the cost of Healthcare as well as other free market incentatives that would encourage more accessibility to blacks? How about a secure retirement and turning SS into a private account that blacks could pass on to their children? Would a good National Security policy help out the black population?
The comments on this thread are pretty decent, but they are going nowhere and have hardly broken any new ground let alone shed any new light on a ongoing unacceptable situation that prevails all to freqauently among the black population. Let's discuss some viable solutions for a change.

Jack
Its ok to remember, but to live their lives as if it is happening does not rub right.


RBM: We are going to have to agree to disagree. To you mortage point, I think I know why. They get rates based on their risk. If more blacks are higher risks based on their population as a whole, then the mortage company has financial right to deny them or give them higher rates. You see it with car insurance. People with a higher credit scores have lower insurance costs, even though your credit score has nothing to do with driving itself. They have proven that people with higher scores are a lower risk.

Lionheart, what about the uncounted whites that were let out as well? See...its uncounted. If you gave me a stat that said 1 in 3 blacks in prison were let out and 1 in 20 whites were let out, then I would see racism. But even then, when were they convicted? We have had DNA for quite some time now.

I know there is some racism, but to equate everything against the race test is not fair to anyone and will never allow the blacks to succeed as a people.

gayle
Whats good for America is good for the black population. The problem is, I don't think McCain is good for America. He can talk about energy independence all he wants, but until he gets us drilling in ANWR or the oil shale in the Dakotas and Rockies...im not buying and many aren't either.

Republicans
I see some here complaining about black candidates for the Republicans.

Think about how few blacks are Republicans. A small percentage of them will want to be politicians, based on say the average person wanting to be a politician being low. This means that there are a very few number of blacks wanting to be in the senate for example. Very few make it that even try and we start with few that try. The whole argument is null since we already have no support from the black population as a whole. I don't think anything the Republicans do would change that...if you think there is, I would love to hear it.

Lionheart:"But the fact remains that TH does have an abundance of posters who seem to relish the opportunity to denigrate African Americans whenever possible and do so routinely. "

I want to hear names of who does that, not examples...and we'll keep an eye out. Sound good?

bigfred77
Having seen Ms. Rice representing the administration of several occasions I fail to understand how she is not relavent. I am glad to see her before the cameras rather than listening to people with your opinion of her.

That you consider black history your alone. That is truly sad. Anyone who can not admire Jackie Robinson as a true American icon hasn't the values I was brought up with.

Republicans
And keep in mind.

That black man that does happen to make it, doesn't have the support of his fellow black man. That is a distinct disadvantage compared to the democratic black man up for election. The black man on the Republican side is known as an Uncle Tom trying to be white.

I just don't understand why many blacks equation successful with acting white, or being Republican as acting white

gayle
The black population is a minority. But a minority with real power when used as Martin Luther King had tried. He focused the energy on using buying power to get change.

The democrats have removed the focus of what individual blacks can do when the move together to what the government should be doing for them.

These are of course broad generalities but I wish I could see more celebration of the black middle class than the rantings of a Maxine Waters.


Hey Allen
I did not consider black history just relevant to black people. In your first post responding to me you told me to take a look back at MY history. I agree black history is American history and all Americans should respect all great people of any race or gender or have contributed positively to our great nation. As far as Ms. Rice, I respect her accomplishments and intellect. I obviously don't agree with her politics, and am not impressed with her role in this administration, so I will concede the we have a difference of opinion on her current role as SOS.

What McCain can't run on
Is the GOP record on giving blacks access to the power of elected office. Many will point to Powell and Rice, but those are appointments made by a President devoted to race neutrality. Unfortunately the party has not followed his lead. As we speak, there has not been a black Republican on the Hill since 2002, and since the GOP is not forwarding a single black candidate for any of the 500 national races this fall, there will not one for at least two more years.

Bottom line, the Dems have demonstrated their commitment to the proposition that race and/or gender are no longer an impediment to becoming the party's nominee.

The GOP, eh...not so much.

bryce
Read my response to that above

CKHustler and BLack Politicians
As the number of learned Blacks break free from the fears of being called names by their race and alot of our trash. They see that being loyal to ones skin is as costly to them as it to us who support Ayrian superiority.
Black success comes at the cost of being libeled by both sides and the truth is I envy them for their determination to tell everybody else I made it on my own.
My favorite saying to all is,
'I'm Independently Poor and Need No-Ones help getting there!' So go about getting yours and leave me alone.

bigfred77
What do you say to Gayle? The choice is really yours as to which direction the black community moves, as a voting member of the group that is.

To many blackmen and women are being told they can't by their government. You may not like her politics but who would you want your child to emmulate Condi Rice or Maxine Waters?

Dems being open Vs GOP
bryce: nice Democrat Name as compared to Bright, insightful and being of oh any number of things but honest.
I bet you where so open minded in MI that you voted out of turn, voted for Obama a Man over Hillary and when told only half would be accepted as a count thought hey that is fair also.
Fix your own house before saying Ours is broken.

Allen I would want my child
To have a shot at being my party's nominee for Prez if that was their desire.

With that as an issue, my support would hardly be for a party whose stance on race is to lecture to blacks while failing to put forth any black candidates who can speak for themselves.

CKHustler @ 11:13
Lionheart:"But the fact remains that TH does have an abundance of posters who seem to relish the opportunity to denigrate African Americans whenever possible and do so routinely. "

I want to hear names of who does that, not examples...and we'll keep an eye out. Sound good?

______

You've got a deal, my brother!!

Black People Do No Call Whites "Whitey"!
Whitey is a term created by white writers to put in the mouthes of black characters so that they won't use the colloquialisms that black people use when negatively referring to whites.
Whites cannot stand to hear the names that black people call them. So they create mocking terminology. A perfect example of this white weakness is the movie White Men Can't Jump. Now America, what was the real name of that movie? Yeah, that's right White BOYS Can't Jump. But the idea of black men having detracting definitive authority of white men was too repugnant for the producers to take, so they gave that movie that stupid name. White writers put the term "whitey" in the character George Jefferson's mouth. It was corny then, and just plan stupid now. The chief slur used by black people against whites is the term Honkey - which is associated with donkey - which is jackass. Or "cracker" - meaning whites "break early"(lots of wrinkles), and low-life whites who do not wash have dirt in their cracks - ergo "cracker." Or the roughest "white m____f___." Please stop with the "whitey" business. It is not indegenous to black Americans. When used, it immediately deligitimatizes any critical analysis of black behavior. All black people knew emphatically that Michelle Obama did not use that slur, because black people don't use it yall!

bryce
Clearly can't read...He should be ignored

Being a colour is not as good...........
As being an American. I find it very difficult to believe anyone that puts his former national idenity before his American home.
And to say I am a Fleshy American really now, it sounds stupid as stupiod as White American vs gray or olive or pink?
In thirdworld nations being one race or one faction over another is fine for there. NOT Here.
We need to be one nation, one people. Stop that then we as a free nation stop.

Butcher
You know what gets me mad:

This story was a couple months ago, maybe longer, but a group of mexican students in Los Angeles took down the American flag, put up the Mexican flag and then proceeded to put the American flag under the Mexican one and upside down.

That shows no respect for our country, who is giving them a public education and opportunity.

Those instances are the things that really get me going.

CkHustler, I agree
"What's good for America is good for the black population." And, I like the five proposals Ken Blackwell made and long for them to be enacted. I am unsure about McCains energy policy too. In Colorado, we have a liberal governor who wants to suspend Oil and Gas exploration for three mounths out of the year in order to accomodate wildlife migration, including prarie dogs. This would leave workers and their families without work and a paycheck for three months. I am waitintg for a liberal to propose that we simply pay the workers for those three months rather than continue to explore in an intellegent way that would accomodate people and wildlife...mostly people though. It can be done, but I will expecting the liberals to shoot for the most expensive and disfunctional process imaginable. You know, their usual MO with most economic policies.

CK Hustler
Your advice is in line with that of the GOP, which as I have stated previously has not had a black voice on the hill since 2002.

gayle, Location: CO
How about what blacks need Vs what many want!
Reply # 108
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 2:40 PM EST How about addressing the points
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Go to McCains websight or mine and read what the Senator and I would like to see happen for America.

All of you take a peak and let me know if we need more and say what it is you think we need.

RealBlackMan says
that "to Black people America is like the uncle that paid your way through college, but molested you."

I reckon we're done then.

Your words seem to be an accurate reflection of how some substantial number of blacks feel toward America.

It is misplaced anger to hate your country and all white people living today rather than the actual people (black and white) who perpetrated the injustices.
But there it is. Misplaced, but real. I reckon most of the rest of us just have to throw up our hands and quit caring about it.
For my part, I will continue to try to love my fellow man (which is difficult in some cases, having nothing to do with race, as anyone who is honest will admit).
Where I cannot achieve that, I behave respectfully toward my fellow man as encountered on an INDIVIDUAL basis.
But I'm finished caring about the woes of the collective "black American". I used to care about it quite a bit. I'll leave the collective hating to you.

bryce
I am only a good republican if I vote a black person?

I should oppose vouchers? I should support candidates who keep the school system under the thumb of the unions? I should want government to run hospitals so that the poor wait longer for major operations while there is no change for the elite? College education for free? Who will be paid better a person who gets a cheap degree or the professor who does not show up to teach?

With the democrats you'll get lip service. If lip service from a black man makes it more appealing then you'll get what you want.


I believe that-
Yes, I believe that as long as there are people in a society of different racial, ethnic, religious, and cultural backgrounds that there will be some level of prejudice.

How does one equalize this? I don't know. But in some instances sports, music, and teamwork all people bond for a while. So as far as the candidates go, I just wish they would pander to all legal Americans and exclude the special interest groups. Any chance that will ever happen???

bryce
You clearly cannot read...should I repost?

I see some here complaining about black candidates for the Republicans.

Think about how few blacks are Republicans. A small percentage of them will want to be politicians, based on say the average person wanting to be a politician being low. This means that there are a very few number of blacks wanting to be in the senate for example. Very few make it that even try and we start with few that try. The whole argument is null since we already have no support from the black population as a whole. I don't think anything the Republicans do would change that...if you think there is, I would love to hear it.

And keep in mind.

That black man that does happen to make it, doesn't have the support of his fellow black man. That is a distinct disadvantage compared to the democratic black man up for election. The black man on the Republican side is known as an Uncle Tom trying to be white.

I would like a response if you are going to stick to your story on the GOP

CKHustler@2:40pm
"Lionheart, what about the uncounted whites that were let out as well? See...its uncounted. If you gave me a stat that said 1 in 3 blacks in prison were let out and 1 in 20 whites were let out, then I would see racism. But even then, when were they convicted? We have had DNA for quite some time now."

Didn't want to respond because it is off the subject but the info is important. Below are stats regarding DNA exonerations:

Races of the 218 exonerees:

134 African Americans
59 Caucasians
19 Latinos
1 Asian American
5 whose race is unknown

Source:http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php

CK, would you admit that where there is smoke, there is fire meaning that for each person exonerated, how many more are innocent but DNA is not available to prove their innocence?


CKHustler and the Mexicano Americanos
I full heartedly agree with you, I greatly dislike disrespect to our Nation, to our Flag, to our Veterans and to another persions Right to Gripe.
That is exactly what I am saying. If you asked those young perperTRAITORS what they where they would respond I am a Mexican American and not as a American of Latin origin.
No respect for where they live or who we are.

Ck Hustler
Black Dems are a presence on the Hill because the Democratic has made recruiting black candidates a priority.

Okay and when does ol George yell ......
Leslie
Location: IL

Reply # 123
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 3:40 PM EST Subject: Black People Do No Call Whites "Whitey"!

Leslie, dear I really must beg to disagree with you. Apparently you have lived a sheltered life and not ever confronted a black person on the issue of AFRICAN American Freedoms at the expense of everyone elses rights.
I love it when they say honkie at me, I am German with some Hungarian in me and Hunky is a norm for me so I just laugh at them.

CKHustler & Butcher Regarding Black
republicans, there are some who are well respected throughout black America. Colin Powell, for example, is deeply admired and respected with the only scar being his role in attempting to convince the UN that WMD were in Iraq. However, he ultimately displayed the morals and principles that he has always been revered for in the black community and is still given the utmost of respect to this day.

J.C. Watts may not have the same level of respect in the black community as Powell but he is well respected and highly thought of.

Your Larry Elders, Thomas Sowells, and Clarence Thomases are the black republicans whose opinions are not very well respected and as such, cannot get very much support from the black community.

lionheart
With those we have to compare that to the population in the cells. After that is proven to be lopsided against, then Ill say there was some racism involved. So if there is twice as many blacks in prison, then the stats above make perfect sense and fit almost perfectly with random chance.

bryce
How did democrats draw the blacks to their party?

Don't for him because...
If Obama can use his skin color as an argument to vote for him, then he and other black Americans shouldn't complain when someone uses the same argument to vote against him.

I won't vote for Obama because he's an elitist socialist snob.

"The color of his skin doesn't concern me, it's the thinness of it." Dennis Miller, on his radio show.


bryce
"Black Dems are a presence on the Hill because the Democratic has made recruiting black candidates a priority. "

See, this is what conservatives are against.

Priority to recruit blacks. It has nothing to do with their smarts or skills. They recruit them because they are black. Conservatives want the best regardless of race. You want to put the blacks up on a pedestal. I believe that is wrong

AFRICAN American Dems on the hill.......
bryce
Location: MI

Reply # 136
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 4:03 PM EST Subject: Ck Hustler
Black Dems are a presence on the Hill because the Democratic has made recruiting black candidates a priority.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please please bryce, do not use the term Black men, man or Black Politician in the same reference to the Democratic choices for office,
You will be expelled from their party as fast as you blink.
Trust me on this, 2/3 of my in-laws are Dems and I get it daily and especially when I wont do a job for free. They would rather pay to much than pay me cost?
AFRICAN Americans take pride in you not knowing what true part of Africa they come from. Part is they do not know and part they cannot make wild claimes to being princes and kings etc.
Black American work hard and study hard. They support their church, family and business in that order. They do not give away to those that can work, those that do drugs or those that just chatter chatter chatter and demand we owe them aliving. We, meaning those that are not of their colour or thinking.
And if your going to continue to push your rediculous metaphors about Dems being better than Reps. There is nothing to discuss.

CKHustler
The below is a quickie search obtained from WikiP but it does show that for violent crimes, the percentages of white vs black are no where near the 2-1 ration identified in the DNA exoneration table shown in my above post. When looking at violent crime in the US, the ethnic breakdown of the offenders appear to be very similar.
_____________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime

"A February 1997 report on rape and sexual-based crime published by the United States Department of Justice stated that of the crimes surveyed, 56% of arrestees were "white", 42% were "black", and 2% were of other races. The report additionally noted that "[v]ictims of rape were about evenly divided between whites and blacks; in about 88% of forcible rapes, the victim and offender were of the same race."[5]

A subsequent United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.1% of the offenders were black, 45.9% were white, and 2% were "Other Races." Of the victims in those same crimes, 51% were white, 46.9% were black, and 2.1% were "Other Races." The report further noted that, "most murders are intraracial", with 86% of white murders committed by whites, and 94% of black murders committed by blacks.[6] It should be noted that the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "white", "black", or "Other Races".

A 2005 United States Department of Justice report on violent crimes stated that of the "perceived race" of the offenders in single-offender violent crimes, 43.3% were white, 21.0% were black, and 9.6% were "Other", with the remaining 26.0% of offenders of unknown

My blacks are not supported>>>>>>>>>>>>>
LionHeart
Location: TX
Reply # 138
Date: Jul 10, 2008 - 4:08 PM EST Subject: CKHustler & Butcher Regarding Black
republicans, there are some who are well respected throughout black America. Colin Powell, for example, is deeply admired and respected with the only scar being his role in attempting to convince the UN that WMD were in Iraq. However, he ultimately displayed the morals and principles that he has always been revered for in the black community and is still given the utmost of respect to this day.

J.C. Watts may not have the same level of respect in the black community as Powell but he is well respected and highly thought of.

Your Larry Elders, Thomas Sowells, and Clarence Thomases are the black republicans whose opinions are not very well respected and as such, cannot get very much support from the black community.
...............................................
Really! WOW and all this time I though I did not own any.
The later three you mentioned are all highly thopught of and respected men in their fields and to say they are not respected in the Black community must mean you can safely speak for an entire community of Black Americans who are not social/Economically connected to the AFRICAN American black community because they went on top be someone and left the trash back besides the curb.
It is no wonder you live in Texas, your not bright enough to find the interstate and move to Mississippi.

LionHeart
So...in conclusion.

between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.1% of the offenders were black, 45.9% were white, and 2% were "Other Races."

That is most telling because it is not a single year, but covers a broad span of years.

Ill admit then...from 74-2004 there was racism somewhere during that period. I cannot say that during the mid-90s there was if most of those arrests of blacks occurred during the 70's. But, somewhere in that time period, more blacks were falsely getting arrested than whites.

I still don't see those numbers making a huge difference if we are talking 139 blacks getting out. That seems like a very low number to me.

@sunthe1
It is misplaced anger to hate your country and all white people living today rather than the actual people (black and white) who perpetrated the injustices.
-------------------------
Hate my country? Thats a stretch in the true sense of the word. Voicing concern on the racial isses in this country hardly constitues hatred in my book.

The quote about the uncle that molested you comes from a Chris Rock stand-up. Loosen up a lil bit man. My attempt at humor obviously was lost on you (how surprising)

I will mourn the loss of your care for the "woes of the collective "black American";-)

Also LMAO at Leslie #123.

bryce
democrat acceptable toadies won't get our children a good education.

LionHeart
This is assuming that homicides is a good sample. We would have to get the actual numbers of people in prison to make a definitive conclusion

LionHeart
For example, I could have used this fact.

Of the 249,400 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses at yearend 2004, 112,500 (45.1%) were black, 51,800 (20.8%) were Hispanic, and 65,900 (26.4%) were white.

Source: Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, and Harrison, Paige M., Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2006 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2007), NCJ219416, p. 24, Appendix Table 9.

That would show the total amount in state prisons instead of the actual crimes per year. And that would match my 2-1 ratio...so we would have to do more research on the issue to get all crimes involved.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime
Lionheart, or is that Lyin'heart.
I really hate doing this since I believe you have a right to show everyone the ignorance of your ways but to us Wikipedia as a source????
AHHHHHHH
Your wrong and quote, 'A 2005 United States Department of Justice report on violent crimes stated that of the "perceived race" of the offenders in single-offender violent crimes, 43.3% were white, 21.0% were black, and 9.6% were "Other", with the remaining 26.0% of offenders of unknown . Victims now donot know who attacked them, any way you say according to wiki 1/2 of the white population committed violent crimes and 1/5 of blacks commited violent crimes. Or something like that, yet the HRW.org, ie human rights world.org states that of the confinded population in US prisons Black and Mexicans commit 63% of the population and comprize only 25% of the population.
Who are we to believe?

If you really want facts................
About how many people did what and are apt to do more go here.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm


FAUXBLACKMAN

.....What is worse than being born black in America? ...

...A. Being born black anywhere else ...

.....You have been whining and crying all day about racist treatment from whites ...you are the biggest pussywimp I have ever run across ...black or white you are a fool and not worthy of response except to mock and demean ...just shut up and go away ...no sensible person wants to read your drivel .....COLOSSUS

Butcher
Based on those stats on that last site, Id have to say that the stats of people let out would probably fall within random error. We are talking less than 1 in 1000 people, meaning it would be incredibly hard to be racist on 70 people of hundreds of thousands.

I have to go
It was nice debating with you all. See ya on another thread some other time! haha

FAUXBLACKMAN

.....I won't call you real because I have known real black men and believe me you don't measure up ...

.....If you want respect you have to earn it and from what you have shown me ...you are deeply in debt .....COLOSSUS

LOL
you are the biggest pussywimp I have ever run across ...black or white you are a fool and not worthy of response except to mock and demean ...just shut up and go away ...no sensible person wants to read your drivel
-------------------------
Your high level of intelligence and reasoning is on display for all to see.

CKHustler
Pistol
King Liberal
Lionheart
Demostheses
Rich not wealthy

A few sensible people who have read and responded to my "drivel", whether negatively or positively.

NEXT!!

My Home Town
...is small and 98% white, BUT has a BLACK mayor...there are numerous examples. I sick of white will not vote for blacks. As far as Mr. Steele goes, his district was a majority black district, SO it was BLACKS who wouldn't vote for Mr. Steele.

The black youth are destroying the culture. I, working as a deliveryman, have been called every filthy name in the book while working in the black areas, and once physically assaulted by a group of 7 teens. I was 50 yrs old at the time. There is so much HATRED inside them people it was screaming out of them. The black community keeps perpetuating this onto the young people, to hate whitey. The community and culture is in disarray. Listen to most any black talk shows. It's hard to discuss anything for all the "juvenile" interruption by callers who lack basic communication skills.

My great, great grandparents were Indians on the "Trail of Tears", but I somehow manage to never think about it, maybe 6 times in my whole life. It's of no consequence to the present or future.

CKHustler & Butcher
The DNA exonerations that we are talking about are for violent criminal offenses, not drug-related offenses so the stats I provided from WikiP (although it combines years 1974-2004)is best for use rather than stats of the total of inmates incarcerated.

When including non-violent crimes such as drug-related offenses in the equation, of course the percentage of blacks vs whites will show a 2-1 or better margin of black incarceration. You may be surprised at the sentences blacks received for drug-related offenses versus comparable crimes and sentencing awarded to whites. But that is another story.

BTW, Butcher, I've been to Mississippi a couple of times and prefer Texas any day.

Thanks for the civil debate, CK.

Butcher
"The later three you mentioned are all highly thopught of and respected men in their fields and to say they are not respected in the Black community must mean you can safely speak for an entire community of Black Americans who are not social/Economically connected to the AFRICAN American black community because they went on top be someone and left the trash back besides the curb."

You are correct in that I should have said, "In my opnion, the Larry Elders, Thomas Sowells, and Clarence Thomases are the black republicans whose opinions are not very well respected and as such, cannot get very much support from the black community."

I am no where close to being the voice of the black community and the above is my opinion only. With that being said, what does .."community of Black Americans who are not social/Economically connected to the AFRICAN American black community because they went on top be someone and left the trash back besides the curb" mean? Couldn't quite grasp what you are trying to say here? Maybe that Elders, Sowell, and Thomas went on to be successful and left the unsuccessful blacks to fend for themselves back in the ghetto?

I don't have a problem with their successful careers and they are all very successful professionals. What I do have a problem with is the fact that each of these gentlemen have a propensity to denigrate their own African American brethren while not using their influence and intelligence to be sources for assisting in the improvement of the very lives they speak of. It's like the preacher who walks straight past the prostitute on the corner without saying a word to get to church to preach the Sunday sermon regarding the evils of prostitution.

I don't expect you to understand but other African Americans reading this will.

Both Wrong
Has anyone considered that maybe both Liberals and Conservatives are wrong when it comes to race in America. The first step to racial harmony is to stop thinking you have all the answers and are without fault in regards to race.

Too Bad
That Senator McCain won't do that. For that matter, even if he said he would today, he would not follow through if elected. Only a conservative would follow through on those things, and Senator McCain is not a conservative.

wizzyg
very nice post, couldn't agree more.

Blah! Blah! Blah!

Race isn't, and never was, the issue. The issue is, and always was, Arrogance.

No social ill can be solved until American place three simple things Above them...

God, Country, and Family.

The first two will cure most ills. The third can be a real Bear :)




Jack
"Your response is a knee jerk reaction."

That's because I'm reacting to a jerk.

Ken
You forgot to add any content to your post.

Jack (aka Jerk)
"You forgot to add any content to your post."

I didn't forget. You've not made any substantive responses to anything I've said in previous posts. All you've done is attack my motives. Those are the tactics of a jerk, and I've got better things to do than argue with jerks.

So long, jerk.

LionHeart
"Below are stats regarding DNA exonerations:"

Are you saying that these out-of-context stats are evidence of something? Even the website where you got them did not put them in any context based on availablilty of DNA, types of crimes, rate per population, either jail or total, etc. Neither did they give their review selection criteria, review rejection rate, or conviction confirmation rate.

A statistics teacher would clobber them and you. For a good example of how to do it correctly, read this:

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/DP.htm

My highschool algebra teacher used to say, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."




Rich
I checked out the website you referenced and failed to see the immediate correlation to the subject CKHustler and I were discussing. Your website is an attempt to counter statements made by Jesse Jackson and others regarding the fact that the number of black men on death row are unjustifiably high. For sure, that is a debate for another time and remember, stats and numbers can be used in many different schemes to show what the user wants to be shown.

CK's issue with me was that twice as many blacks were convicted for committing violent crimes, therefore, the 2-1 ratio for blacks being exonerated from death row was a fair representation. The data I presented showed that violent crimes were being committed nearly on the same percentage for both races (black 52.1%, white 45.9%), therefore, a 2-1 ration of blacks being exonerated signaled a problem in the system.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Homicide Offenders by Race, 1976-2005
White 45.8%
Black 52.2%
Other 2.0%
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