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Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
America Will Regret High Court's Decision
by Ken Blackwell
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Note: This piece was co-written by Kenneth A. Klukowski

The Supreme Court’s 5-4 opinion in Boumediene v. Bush will go down as one of the most egregiously-wrong decisions in history. Breaking 200 years of settled precedent, the Court has rewritten the Constitution’s allocation of national security powers. In essence, the narrow majority attacked the actions of a Commander-in-Chief in time of war. It attacked the law as rewritten by Congress in response to a prior decision of this very Court. And. it attacked the Court by aggressively ignoring its own prior decisions. The "logic" of this case sets up a bare majority of the Justices as supreme over the President, the Congress, and even other decisions of the Court itself.

The four dissenters were Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia, Thomas and Alito. Roberts and Scalia wrote dissents, with all four justices signing both.

The Court, in an opinion written by Justice Kennedy, held that the writ of habeas corpus—the right of a detainee to contest their detention’s legality—applies to enemies who are not American citizens and are incarcerated abroad by the U.S. military. Yet, the Supreme Court has always held that habeas does not apply to noncitizens that are not on American soil. So, to rule as it did without overturning more than 200 years of precedent, the Court devised a brand-new rule that a location can be de-facto under U.S. sovereign control even though it is legally part of a foreign nation.

The majority held that the writ applies to Guantanamo Bay (Gitmo) because it deems it to be the equivalent of U.S. soil. It expressly allows that if prisoners were held somewhere outside U.S. control, then the writ would not apply, as has historically been the case.

In his dissent, Justice Scalia noted that the effect of Thursday’s ruling is that detainees will now be less safe, because the military will now keep detainees in foreign locations under foreign control, to avoid the question of habeas corpus. The military may even have to allow foreign governments custody of the prisoners, where prisoners will doubtless find less respect for their human rights.

Habeas corpus is a procedural right. For those covered, Chief Justice Roberts noted the legal test is, “whether the system [Congress] designed protects whatever rights the detainees may possess.” After Gitmo detainees go through the military process, they can still appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit—the second-highest court in America.

Roberts began his dissent by saying that the Court has struck down the most generous procedural protections ever afforded to detainees in the history of warfare, and did so before a single detainee even appealed his detainment. Had the Court allowed at least one detainee’s case to go through appeal, it may have found their rights fully protected.

Roberts laments, “All today’s opinion has done is shift responsibility for those sensitive foreign policy and national security decisions from the elected branches to the Federal Judiciary.” He concluded that Congress’ balancing “the security of the American people” with detainees’ rights has been “brushed aside,” and that the American people have lost control of foreign policy to unelected and politically-unaccountable judges.

Scalia made Roberts look tame by comparison, beginning, “for the first time in our Nation’s history, the Court confers a constitutional right to habeas corpus on alien enemies detained abroad by our military forces in the course of an ongoing war.”

Central to his dissent is that in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, the Court had said the president could ask Congress to create military tribunals if he thought them necessary. In what Scalia called a “bait and switch,” Congress did exactly what the Court required, and when the Court struck it down as unconstitutional, Scalia quipped, “Turns out they were just kidding.”

The dissent’s critical point was that habeas does not apply to noncitizens in Cuba, therefore suspending it at Gitmo is unnecessary.

The Wall Street Journal correctly observed that this is the first time in American history that the Supreme Court, which is ill-suited to conduct military matters, interfered not only in the president’s prosecution of a war, but also overrode Congress’ policy judgments.

Justice Scalia ominously concluded, “The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today.”

We agree.

Kenneth A. Klukowski is a D.C. area consultant and published writer on constitutional issues.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Another Step Back in Line for America
First, our govt. gives better healthcare to illegal aliens than OUR Veterans. Now this. I keep on saying to myself that you have more benefits in America if you're not a citizen



"Your Country is Dying from Political Correctness"
http://www.FightPC.net

Call them what they are....and it is ove
Call them POW's and they are covered under the Geneva Convention.

Message to George Will
Mr. Blackwell has done an eminently better job than you of analysis and support of his position.

You, Mr. Will, should read his article and thoroughly consider his points.

It's over anyway
Unless we get a truly conservative majority in Congress, as Obama will only appoint liberal justices, and McCain will not be able to get any conservatives justices through a Democratic-controlled Congress.

Ken
The statement made by Justice Scalia and quoted by you,"America will living to regret",shows a willingness to "Politicize" the court.All the lawyers, I know have lost some respect for Justice Scalia.Why?Because Justice John Marshall would never have made such a statement in public.Scalia knows the power of his position and naivete of most American citizens.There is some "Frameworking", that must be done by Congress and the President,which will be "Graded" by the Supremes during their reviews.The responsible people in this government should be busily trying to accomplish that,as oppose to trying to "Scare" the VOTING public.Remember;"Fools Rush in Where Wise Men Never Go"...

Supremes
Firstly, M. Sederoff, the article is fine - it gives us the necessary information. Why so critical. Picky, picky.

Anyway, this is nothing new. The Supremes have been legislating from the bench for a long time. Gee, remember when they found a right to abortion?

Our gutless Congress has the right under the Constitution to disregard the Court and make a law ASAP giving them what they want, but they won't do anything about it.

COMMANDR IN CHIEF
DO YOU MEAN THAT THE COMMCNDR IN CHIEF IS NOT RESTRICTED BY ANYTHING OR ANYBIODY WHEN WE ARE AT WAR, THIS IIS WHAT YOU SAY WHEN YOU express surprise THAT one branch of IOUR government WILL DO THEIR job B AND Restrict the powers of the executiver in time of war . who else is there. certainly there has to bne some chceck on him, you cant really mean that he if free to do whatever he will without worrying about fear of punishment if thats the case how in the world could we find the justification for executing saddham husseein. he was nothing butthe leader of his country defending it the very best he knew how against foreign aggression. .that makes bush a what???

Much ado about nothing
This ruling does not provide that those at Guantanamo should be released, or even that they must get habeas hearings, simply that they must be able to apply for a hearing. Courts have a great deal of discretion in such matters. And given that there are only 270 detainees at Guantanamo, and the federal courts are operating at whatever degree of efficiency is normal for them, this will hardly overburden the system.


States Rights ,Majority Rules
I would like to see the entire constitution rewritten or amended to state,each state shall be over seen by one elected offical whose only job is to run a computer which is to count votes on any and all issues.This plan is much easier and cheaper.Why pretend we have a three branch system of checks and balances ??Just let the majority rule.If each state is sovereign,then eventually the country will have states completely conservative or completely liberal.If you want to sleep with the enemy then you could live in a state with no rules.

MRCMRC
I don't know about Commander in Chief, but you Sir, might have been born mentally defficient or perhaps it was your sub-par public schooling, either way, the judgement and execution of Saddam Hussein was strictly an Iraqui business. Our military's involvement was strictly security for Saddam, to avoid lynching by his own peers.

American Emperor
The Conservative lie that they defend smaller government is continually exposed by conservatives unabated demands for unaccountable centralized executive government.

For conservatives the soul obligation of an executive to take unilateral, totalitarian control of a nation is his own decision to declare war without legislative approval.

What Conservatives yearn for in their hearts is a War King, who will lead "his people" (read white kinsman) in a glorified conquest of the globe.

Conservatism in their essence yarn for a new Hitler and a new Thousand year Reich.

Egon: Apparently "BOTH."

"... born mentally defficient" AND "sub-par public schooling...."

Liberal Robinhoods
This is just another example of the merry men giving something to those who do not deserve it. The socialist left is at work in every facet of our government to tear apart the country we lovew so much.
The 0 death reports in Iraq for Monday was 2 lines in the corner on page 3. Disgraceful. Talk about whiners they bashed Bush and the war,but make no mention of the huge turn around in Iraq. Disgraceful. We are winning the war and losing more of ouwn government everyday.

Since The
Supreme Court has NO policing powers to ENFORCE its' own ruling, the EXECUTIVE branch can just ignore it completely and be within its constitutional authority. But since this is a "time of war" in this country, declared or undeclared, perhaps President Bush should order a platoon of the Presidential Unit to go knock on the Supreme Courts doors and let them interpret what aiding and abetting the enemy in time of war truly means. See if the SCOTUS gets the message that judicial activism by fiat will NOT be tolerated in a government of checks and balances. Where have all the statesmen gone?

By the way Mr. Blackwell, here in Ohio, you did a great job as AG. Well done sir!

Another point of view

Perhaps a different approach should have been what happen to civilians who took up arms against uniformed soldiers (both sides in WWII).
That would have been summary execution.

Second thought. What is the term used to describe one who destroys military installations while in civilian attire ( Saboteur)? What is the usual punishment? (death or imprisonment)
How are they tried? (military tribunal).

Packrat
"
Perhaps a different approach should have been what happen to civilians who took up arms against uniformed soldiers (both sides in WWII).
That would have been summary execution."

I'm pretty sure their where no "summary" executions, but hey had a court marshall first. Also, isn't a bit much to ask goat herders, who weren't even involved in the war, to put on an uniform?



Commander45ACP
Law is precidence and this sets a bad precidence.

A lie
“for the first time in our Nation’s history, the Court confers a constitutional right to habeas corpus on alien enemies detained abroad by our military forces in the course of an ongoing war.”

We have never denied an enemy rights. They were either a POW or given a court marshall. We are not the USSR or China and take people and put them away for ever, not yet anyway.


uber
Since you are so good at telling us what conservatives yearn for ,maybe you could enlighten us as what liberals 'yearn for'.Since I know about as much about you as you do me,we may be at a standstill.

If we get Barack Hussein Obama as our leader this fall,we conservatives should be satisfied,since he will be the next'best thing' to the Hitler you say we 'yarn' for.

Actually,if you just inject liberals where you say conservatives in your inane post , you will have it just right.

If it had been Bill Clinton ...
... instead of George Bush, and all other things were equal, everything would have been just hunky-dory and peachy keen with liberals.

Let me see
if I have this right. If we are in a state of war, declared or undeclared, and an American institution aids and abets the enemy, is that not grounds for treason? Usually it would be if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps President Bush should order a platoon of the Presidential Guard Unit to knock on the SCOTUS doors and have them explain this ruling.

Where have all the leaders gone?

Taft
Check your history as to what the Nazis did to French "Resistance Fighters (Civilians) ,when they caught them.

Check what Saddam Hussein did to Kurds who opposed him. I know that's more recent than WWII

I said both sides

And the goat herders if they are not in the war are non combatants under the Geneva Convention. If they are going to fight , then their "army" needs to provide uniforms or expose them to the consequences.

Uber
I think that if you took the time to go back and check the record, the President did indeed have Congressional approval to go to war. Of course, such an effort un Uber's part would result in learning that, contrary to the Left's arguments, their assertion that it never happened is an undefendable claim. They then fall back on the fallacy that the Administration "lied" in taking us to war, which, if true, would support the theory that members of Congress can be easily duped. That doesn't say much for Congress now, does it?

But there is a bright side to all of this as well. If the recent action by the Supremes results in terrorists being set free and returning to the field of battle, our troops will get the chance to once again confront them, but will be far less likely to take prisoners this time.

uber: (#13) regurgitates pretty much
every lie, falsehood, and misrepresentation the lunatic, limited lib-idiots have come up with.... and ALL in one post.

But, uber is obviously suffering from an acute case of BDS. And, as we ALL KNOW, BDS renders those afflicted completely incapable of any rational and reasonable thought.

uber's post may or may not be "Offensive" but we could sure use and "Insufferably Stupid" button for uber's posts...




Not even trying
You sometimes get the sense that conservatives (unfortunately including those on the court) are sometimes not even trying to give serious arguments.

The current decision by the Supreme Court concerned procedural protections due to people under US control. It is hard to imagine an issue that is more clearly under the purview of the judicial system. That does not mean that they made the right decision. It means that people who claim that they are trying to make foreign policy deserve to be laughed at.

And how silly to pretend that Gitmo is under Cuban sovereignty as if Cuba has any say about anything that happens there.

In this case we have 4 judicial activists who don't think the Constitution allows for their favored policies and so want to ignore it, being outvoted by 5 justices who think that even now the Constitution deserves to be taken seriously.

I doubt we will come to regret having 5 justices stand up for the constitution. The 4 justices who consider the constitution antiquated could turn out to be another matter.

Keep repeating this nonsense and...
eventually lots of folks will believe it.

But what Blackwell, Bush et al are arguing for is the abandonment of decency.

As Benjamine Wittes of the Brookings Institute recently noted, significant facts justifying the detention of about 60 percent of the Guantanamo inmates are in dispute.

The court's ruling simply means those disputes should be heard by an independent arbiter.

Strip away all the legalese, and this is an argument about simple human decency and fairness.

A country that habitually pounds its chest proclaiming how "good and just" it is should do no less than ensure the people it locks away in secret torture prison truly deserve to be there.

CLUB GITMO WAS A BAD JOKE

.....That led to a bad SCOTUS decision ...

.....This does not excuse the decision but there never should have been a Club Gitmo in the first place ...it was just another poor decision by the Bush Administration on how to conduct a PC war .....COLOSSUS

shilohbus29
I will tell you the same thing I told the RNC when they called asking for my money. You would have to have proof McCain would be conservative in his pick of judges, IF any of the scumbags would retire. He has shown his self so far left on everything else, why would he buck the dems and not cross the aisle now?
Otherwise, this part of your post is a straw man argument.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

I regret....
....our Supreme Court's decision to choose Bush to be our President.

Taft sayz
America is so evil we went and rounded up goat herders.
Have to run, kool aid to make and places to see.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

PEOPLE
Think ahead. Are they getting us ready for the future?
The MOST IMPORTANT ruling could bring much worse consequences for this great nation. I give you Parker v. District of Columbia.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Doc
Many of the detainees are guilty and should be behind bars, but..
".. 125 or so that I would call general detainees. If there really are any goat herders who were scooped up, sold to the Americans, and ended up at Gitmo they would be in this third group. The decision has the greatest impact on them. This will afford them their day in court to show their detention is arbitrary."


A GREAT Decision
Thank goodness there are 5 justices left on the court who are protecting our freedom from a government that wants the ability to imprison anyone they care to on the basis of show trials and tribunals with no real chance to defend themselves.

The sanity of this decision is obvious. No doubt there are very dangerous individuals being held a Guantanamo. All the government has to do is produce the evidence they have to show this in court and the debate is over. If they have no evidence then why are they holding them?

Truly frightening...
to hear some folks calling on the President to ignore the SCOTUS ruling, or to actually arrest the members of the court.

Are you listening to yourselves?

All bench laws
Should require mandatory affirmation by Congress before decisions can have the power of law. Why do we even have a congressional or executive forms of governance?

Doc, heal thyself....
Doc writes (repetitively): "“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist."

PW: What if Durant was right but you and fellow totalitarians are the destructive force he predicted would prompt the country's demise?

slacker seems to think that the "rights"

of the detainees are more important than the safety and well being of those living in the US.

slacker's typlically fatuous posts leaves no question just whose side he's on.


Anne
Do you not believe that all persons are vested with certain inaliable rights by our Creator?

"Released Detainees Rejoining The Fight"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52670-2004Oc t21.html

"At least 10 detainees released from the Guantanamo Bay prison after U.S. officials concluded they posed little threat have been recaptured or killed fighting U.S. or coalition forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan, according to Pentagon officials.

"One of the repatriated prisoners is still at large after taking leadership of a militant faction in Pakistan and aligning himself with al Qaeda, Pakistani officials said. In telephone calls to Pakistani reporters, he has bragged that he tricked his U.S. interrogators into believing he was someone else. "

And there have been others...........

I'd just like to see all these "Enemy Sympathizers" explain their point of idiocy to the families of the soldiers killed by "former detainees." That ought to be good!

Re "Egregious Decisions"

Dear Mr. Blackwell:

In your column today, you write: "The Supreme Court’s 5-4 opinion in Boumediene v. Bush will go down as one of the most egregiously-wrong decisions in history."

Substitute "Gore v Bush" for Boumediene v Bush and you have THE most egregiously wrong decision in history.

You will recall that on Dec. 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court by that decision, in essence, usurped the vote from the hands of American citizens and imposed their will to elect the Court's President, George W. Bush.

Underscoring the egregiousness is the conveniently overlooked fact that certification for the Presidency of Mr. Bush was effected by Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris in violation of Florida Statute 112.311, which forbids Florida officials from decision-making where a conflict of interest exists.

And certainly Ms. Harris, a staunch Republican who co-chaired Mr. Bush's Florida effort and who campaigned tirelessly for Mr. Bush, had an obvious conflict of interest in the 2000 election.

Had the Supreme Court resisted efforts to select their President in 2000, Boumediene v Bush in 2008 would have been moot.

Commander45ACP: I bet that someone once

told you that "there is no such thing as a stupid question" and you believed them.

Sorry, they lied to you!

Anne
These rights you so gleefully disdain are ones supported by many in our military and is a fundamental part of what being an American is. We don't like giving bad people rights, but we do, because we are a civilized Christian nation. If you want to live in a totalitarian society move to China.

nmi suffers from acute BDS!

First thing to go is the ability to form cogent and intelligent thought.

My pet goat

The "supreme court chose Bush" is so tired.

Remember, if Gore could have carried his HOME state, Florida would not have mattered, but he could not do it.

Taft
Since when did those people have rights?

Did the Nazi war criminals held in the American occupation zone in Germany have the right to habeas corpus?

Taft writes: "These rights you so
gleefully disdain are ones supported by many in our military and is a fundamental part of what being an American is."


Aaah, there you go again, making statements that are just not true!

I "gleefully disdain" these rights? Not true!

But, I refer you to my 11:33AM post. That might provide some insight into why these "detainees" should NOT be freed. Very logical!

Yeah, "because we are a civilized Christian nation" and would like to STAY that way!

The problem is, these "detainees" along with their "friends" want the US wiped off the face of the earth. Or, haven't you heard that? It's been in all the papers and on the news.

Oh wait, maybe you didn't, since it's not in the MSM.

I'll give you some links if you're interested in what's really happening....

Taft
I do think they can tell the difference and the “goat herders” have been or will be released.
How ever, if we keep letting a bunch of idiots wearing robes change the rules when ever it suits them, well let’s just say this is why the left goes all BDS on peso george. Can’t have it both ways.

PeeWee: I dunno what you are squawking about, a SOCIALIST wrote it.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Constitutional crisis…


‘The Wall Street Journal correctly observed that this is the first time in American history that the Supreme Court, which is ill-suited to conduct military matters, interfered not only in the president’s prosecution of a war, but also overrode Congress’ policy judgments.’ –Ken Blackwell


So it is past time for the co-equal branches of federal government to send a message to the Supremes…

This ruling is outside your review and a violation of the fundamental principle of separation of powers. Your activism has created a Constitution crisis. We are bound by our oath of office to uphold the Constitution. This ruling is an offense to the people of the United States. As elected representatives of the people we cannot in good conscience submit to it. If this remains your policy, then you will have to enforce it.

A Constitutional crisis of this sort would go a long way towards resetting the court to its original boundaries and reestablishing the power of the people over the court. If the current trends remain, how long will it be before the court sits in review of election outcomes? Oh yes, they have already done that and continue to do so.

dbz77
No, and if were to classify them as POWs then I'm fine with the whole thing. At some point though, as this war is going to last maybe centuries, we might give them some sort of hearing.

Anne
My question was serious, and asked in a respectful manner.
I had hoped you were capable of carrying on an intelligent debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks.
I see I was mistaken.

OMIGOSH!
The stupidity posted here is beyond belief. It is apparent that far too many slurp the Kool Aid around here then espouse their pseudo intellectualism. Apparently people not only exhibit a total lack of understanding of the WOT but a total lack of understanding of what this decision means and how it does or doesn't apply to them. Here is a clue. It doesn't apply to you but the SCOTUS has just managed to usurp your POTUS and Congress and virtually neutered the Constitution.

As to enemy combatants, that is a term that needs to be done away with completely. They are wearing a uniform. A turban, a beard, a Koran, and an automatic weapon.

dbz77
Did the Nazi war criminals held in the American occupation zone in Germany have the right to habeas corpus?

How unfair you are asking a valid question. They deserve the same American citizens rights we gave the nazi’s. NONE

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Nice try, Taft, but Anne is...
impervious to reasoned argument.

Anne writes: "I refer you to my 11:33AM post. That might provide some insight into why these "detainees" should NOT be freed. Very logical!"

PW: the ruling only gives the detainees a chance to challenge the case supporting their detention.

Whether they should be freed is a separate matter to be decided after it is first determined whether they should continue to be held without charge.

Anne states:
"I'd just like to see all these "Enemy Sympathizers" explain their point of idiocy to the families of the soldiers killed by "former detainees.""

First, your strawman argument has no merit. The desire that anyone detained by the government be afforded the basic and ancient right of habeus corpus is not equivalant to "sympathizing" with the enemy.
Second, the "former detainees" of which you speak, were released BEFORE the SCOTUS decision.

My 2 cents (Part 1)

I see the same people debating the same issues of a couple days ago on the same topic, different columnist. So I guess I'll restate my same arguments, too.

First, we're not in a declared war. Congress has the power "to declare War", and hasn't bothered doing so. The right of Habeus Corpus may be suspended in time of invasion or insurrection, but not just at the whim of the President. Neither condition pertains.

Congress and Bush had the opportunity to declare a war and didn't do so, all while trying to finesse the issue. Well, this is the result.

Further, some of those "combatants" and "detainees" are American citizens. On that basis alone, all must have access to the system if only to merely ascertain their status.

The idea that the government has the power to imprison people for any length of time without access to any type of legal system is anathema to a free society. Hell, that's what the Germans did to the Jews. They were called concentration camps.

Part 2
In past undeclared "wars" we avoided this whole problem by not maintaing possession of captives; we turned them over to our ally host government; the ARVN, the Koreans, whatever. Bush's mistake this time was in not following that precedent.

The solution is simple: open a Federal Court branch on Gitmo to handle these cases. As Will wrote, a court hearing in no ways equates to releasing these people. It simply assures them access to Due Process, to which they're entitled, since they are most definitely NOT POWs. Can't be a Prisoner Of War when no "war" has been declared. If we'd bothered to declare war, then this issue again wouldn't have arisen, because at that point the Geneva Conventions would have applied. This is a classic case of trying to have a cake and eating it, too.

As others have written, that will entail costs. Yep, sure will. So what?

And don't bother trying to smear me by calling me a liberal. The assertion's simply laughable on its face.

Taft
They are neither. They are a bunch of murderous scumbags that have no idea of any civilized rules of war fare. They would as soon kill babies and women as anyone. I really do not want them brought here. That was the whole idea on the WOT, to keep them out.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Anne
Your missing the whole point. The SCOTUS doesn't want to let anyone one dangerous go, it just wants them classified as POWs, and then subject to the GC, or classified as something els. We can't have a class of people outside the law. We have, you know, a hundred times more prisoners in Afghanistan, and who the SCOTUS leaves alone. We are a nation of laws and its served us pretty damn well so far.

BrianR
Very, very well said! Your 2 cents is worth much more.

BrianR
While I agree with charge them or dump them, I will say just not here. I do not want innocents of any kind sitting in jail. But I see nothing wrong in forcing a military tribunal or they should have to let them go if they have no case. But they are not American citizens and they should not share in our rights. I still want to know who will be paying for this. Taft? PeeWee? MRCMRC or TR for short, come on pony up if you think they deserve access to our courts.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”
W. Durant. Socialist.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

PeeWee: Wouldn’t know reasoned argument

if it came up and smacked him right in the middle of his forehead.

In fact, PeeWee probably wouldn’t know THAT he’d been smacked at all.

Actually, based on PeeWee’s posts, he doesn’t even know what “reasoned” means.

Why don't we
just get on with the trials and hang the guilty ones?
What are we waiting for?

quote:
"the Court has rewritten the Constitution’s allocation of national security powers. In essence, the narrow majority attacked the actions of a Commander-in-Chief in time of war"


And if GW Bush will not stand against it, he is for it himself.

The Court has no authority or standing to decide a single thing concerning the detainees in Gitmo.
No standing whatsoever on any legal or constitutional basis.

So why would GW Bush allow them to take his authority is the real question.
If he was true to the law and constitution he will begin impeachment proceedings.
I do not believe the wimp will do that, simply because he has no respect for the US Constitution himself, no more than the dingbats on this court does.

There is a line drawn in this issue, admitted to or not, like it or not, the line is an indelible one that separates a legal order from an illegal order.
No man is obligated to obey illegal orders.

GW Bush should begin impeachment proceedings, and show himself a man of honor.



Taft and Doc

Thanks, first of all.

But guys, it sounds to me like both of you are essentially saying the same thing. I don't think you disagree, other than on some details.

Doc, one thing to consider, as you're the one who thinks military tribunals should maintain jurisdiction. Courts-martial have authority over military personnel, but not civilians. Now, as these detainees haven't been determined to be military combatants and since there's no declared war they're not POWs, it seems to me that then they're civilians, and a civilian authority obtains, which would be the Federal Court system.

Now, Habeus Corpus simply means the detainee must be brought before a court. Should that court then determine that they are, in fact, legitimate military combatants, even if ununiformed, they can simply remand them back into the military chain of authority.

I just don't see this as being a big problem, and I think it's the correct decision.

Blackwell, you're making me sorry...
...that I sent you money when you were running for governor of Ohio. You need to read George Will's piece on this subject and consider it carefully. He, like you, is a conservative. But he appears to have a bit more sense about limiting the powers of the president to do whatever the president wants, whenever, wherever, just by saying the word "war."

Brian is wrong, as to Declaration of War
The President followed this procedure to introduce the Military in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
By authority of Law, the Military and the President have Jurisdiction to decide the status of the detainees, not the Civil Courts.



The War Powers Act of 1973
50 USC S.1541-1548, 1973
The War Powers Resolution, generally known as the War Powers Act, was passed by Congress over President Nixon's veto to increase congressional control over the executive branch in foreign policy matters, specifically in regard to military actions short of formally declared war. Its central provision prohibited the President from engaging in military actions for more than sixty days, unless Congress voted approval.

The House of Representatives having proceeded to reconsider the resolution (H. J. Res 542) entitled "Joint resolution concerning the war powers of Congress and the President", returned by the President of the United States with his objections, to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, it was Resolved, That the said resolution pass, two-thirds of the House of Representatives agreeing to pass the same.

Sorry, Talent Scout

That in no way negates what I wrote.

Further, the War Powers Act doesn't in any way address the constitutional issues involved.


To 'slacker' . . .
. . . you must be a "one world" internationalist who believes foreign laws should: a) trump our own Constitution, and b) be used as a guide for stuff like this. At least three of the "majority" in this case - Stephen Breyer, Anthony Kennedy and ex-ACLU lawyer Ruth Bader Ginsburg - certainly believe "international law" should be used as a template for making judicial decisions.

It is a disgrace that so many on the Left would rather see one or more U.S. cities be annihilated in a nuclear/"dirty" bomb attack from al Qaeda than see such plots stopped because of this "BDS" with which they're incurably afflicted.

chips
"I think that if you took the time to go back and check the record, the President did indeed have Congressional approval to go to war."

I think if you check the constitution it is clear that the president requires a declaration of war in order to wage war.

If you want to make your argument, you must first begin by saying that we are not at war. Then you can say that congress gave approval to take military action.

"Of course, such an effort un Uber's part would result in learning that, contrary to the Left's arguments, their assertion that it never happened is an undefendable claim."

I think I defended my claim adequately. So much for your credibility.

"They then fall back on the fallacy that the Administration "lied" in taking us to war, which, if true, would support the theory that members of Congress can be easily duped."

True, so much for Republicans credibility.

"That doesn't say much for Congress now, does it?"

True... It doesn't say much for the Republican congress which abandoned it's constitutional author

"But there is a bright side to all of this as well. If the recent action by the Supremes results in terrorists being set free and returning to the field of battle, our troops will get the chance to once again confront them, but will be far less likely to take prisoners this time."

Exactly... In fact can anyone here tell me why we didn't just implant tracking chips into them and then monitor their movements. I think we could have gotten a lot more actionable intelligence than torturing them into telling any lie we want to here.

I am right Brian
If the President was/is acting on his own decision to send the Military to Iraq and Afghanistan, over 60 days, the Congress could stop the War right now.

Why haven't they stopped it if the President does not have Legal Authority to send our Military into those Countries?

Who has jurisdiction is the question

Based in Set law, and Precedent?


Brian, You write:
one thing to consider....Courts-martial have authority over military personnel, but not civilians.

Now, as these detainees haven't been determined to be military combatants and since there's no declared war they're not POWs, it seems to me that then they're civilians, and a civilian authority obtains, which would be the Federal Court system.
-----
These statements do not allow for Martial Law, as all Civilians fall under in a Combat Zone.

All Civilians are subject to Martial Law in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Under Martial Law, Civil Courts have no jurisdiction.

The people detained in Gitmo were not arrested by any civilian authorities, they were captured on a field of combat.
That fact makes them subject to Military Law, regardless of their clothing issues.




The Silver Lining
At first, I was concerned with what message it sends to our troops in the Middle East who are now going to be asked to become policemen, and in the middle of a firefight, hold up a card and read them their Miranda rights in farsi.
But then I realized that unlike the police in this country, they have better things to do. I predict that the message they are getting is "take no prisoners" for dead men tell no tales.
Once the word is out, terrorists will find no aide and comfort mixing with the locals to hide from the full power and might of the US military.
Civilian goat herders will do well to run as fast as they can from any would be terrorist, or to turn them in when they move into the apartment upstairs lest both incur the detonation of the next smart bomb.

It has been done
uber - 1:00 PM EST


I think if you check the constitution it is clear that the president requires a declaration of war in order to wage war.

----
War has been declared, by Congress.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2. html




Whereas Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the President "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677";

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1)," that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and "constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region," and that Congress, "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688";


TalScout, here's where your

assertions fail.

First of all, the requirement in the Constitution that wars be declared still has priority over everything else, even poorly written laws like the War Powers Act (WPA). Now, the WPA can be considered enabling legislation to be utilized in a time of war, but using it for "funding" or "deployment" authorizations lacking a formal war declaration means they're being used unconstitutionally to enable entering war without formally declaring a state of war.

I know this sounds like simple quibbling, but this is essential to the whole Gitmo debate.

If these "detainees" had been captured in a declared war, their status would be that of POWs, and as such would fall under the purview of the Geneva Conventions. They'd have no legal rights in our judicial system under established American and International law.

The very fact that they've been "detained" lacking that declaration is what puts them in a position to demand and receive legal protection under another authority, in this case the federal Courts.

Our military can't just be transformed into a bunch of international kidnappers free to go into foreign countries and scoop up people and take them away forever.

Ther's a reason wars are "declared". That declaration puts a specific and clear set of rules in place for defining and treating captives. As a matter of fact, if the war were declared, these captives, none of whom were wearing uniforms, could be summarily shot as spies.

Instead, we have the mess we're now discussing.


My very words

Eight years too late, Ken Blackwell writes:

"Justice Scalia ominously concluded, 'The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today.'"

My very words, spoken in grief on December 12, 2000, when Judge Scalia and his U.S. Supreme Court conspirators, ignoring the electorate, decided, in essence, to install George W. Bush as President.

Which brings us to the prophetic words of the New York Post's John Podhoretz, who, on Nov. 14, 2000, while the battle for the White House was still raging, wrote:

"The Final Winner Is a Sure Loser."

Reviewing the presidency of George W. Bush, it's amazing how right Podhoretz was.







steve
an undeclared or declared war? really where is that in the conmstitution. so the president evidently , at least according to you,has the authority to proclaim an undeclared or declared war. if he declares that we are in a undeclared war then he willhave to assume certain powers because of this undeclared war which he just declared. on the other hand he might decide to declare a dclared war in which case he would have to assume certain powers whih would be necessry to fight this declared war which he didnt quite have in his undeclared war. but after all we are either in a state of declared war or undeclared war, since the president has , according to your reasoning, complete ppwer in either a declard war or a undeclared war there is no reason to keep calling him president . he has the power to declare war, or undeclare war ], and to do whatever he has to do to insure our security therfore he is an emperor. silly
tell me, would you , under the comditionm=
ive outrlined above, would you rather be president during a declared war or during an undeclared war. tough decision,

americans will regret...
wrong we wont. i have proof.

America Regrets this administration
Ken; OOOPs you boo boo'd again, again and again.
The WPA, was authorized by Congress and the Courts, only to allow our nations CinC. The right to get our armed forces off their butts and onto a war footing rapidly. He still has to go to both Houses and get a DofW to continue.
It was not carte blanche, go do what ever you want to get out of jail free card. It was to prevent another Pearl Harbour.
Well 9/11 was PHII, because we do not respond to threats for fear of being labeled the aggressor.
Guess what, Ol GWB just blow that notion clear out of the water with Iraq and Gitmo.
We as a `Free society of peoples,' have the enalienable rights to persue peacefully, those persuits which the creator has granted to all mankind. Without the fear of unprovoked assault or harm.
Like wise, we have the same rights as others to be pre-emptive in our persuits. If we can `see a clear and potential threat to our society as a whole. And provide good solid evidance that we would be most greaveiously harmed by not acting first, can rightfully continue to espouse to the claim of non provication.
In otherwords, had the Bush administration done it right, Bin Laden, Al Qaida and Saddam would all be dust in the wind now and this conversation would not be taking place.

Declared v. undeclared war

Once Congress passes a war declaration, the President -- as Commander in Chief -- assumes sole and unchallengeable authority over the conduct of the war, including troop dispositions and conduct of operations, including treatment of POWs (who at that point receive that status).

Congress's role is limited to appropriating funds to conduct the war.


When war is prosecuted using Congressional "deployment" and "funding" authorizations, Congress has retained control over the conduct of the war, and the President's role is therefore limited to carrying out the will of Congress.


THAT is the essence of the Bemoudierre decision. Bush was refusing to treat the "detainees" as mandated by Congress in two separate acts, and the "detainees" thus petitioned for -- and received -- Habeus Corpus on that basis.

Next Time
Terrorist prisoners should be questioned aggressively (by any means necessary), and when it appears that they no longer have any useful information, they should be turned over to a friendly foreign government with a stronger stomach for self-preservation, to be disposed of however they choose.

Talent Scout we agree on one thing
I also feel that these cases should ideally be decided by military tribunal. The problem is that the laws creating the Bush tribunals included language which specifically suspeneded habeus, which is strictly unconstitutional. Also the Bush tribunals did not jibe with the UCMJ in their allowance of hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercion.

say no to Obama Yes To Patriotism
This Supreme Court or no other court has a right to grant Constitutional Rights and Guarantees to Non Citizens, and especially to Terrorists. President Bush needs to use an Andrew Jackson statement that he used in the early nineteenty century when the Supreme Court ruled that some wartime action that he was taking was unconstitutional. Jacks said, (paraphrased) "The Supreme Court Ruled on the law, now let the Supreme Court enforce their ruling." Then, old Andy Jackson went ahead and did whatever was necessary to achieve his military and security goal. It is time we had a Frontier Cowboy run the government for awhile. The mealy mouthed bleeding heart intellectuals have all but destroyed the country. Look at this bunch in the Supreme Court, The Democrat Congress, and all the rest of the Metropolitan USA where Crime, welfare, pollution, filth and disease reside. The same areas that are voting for Obama and these other idiotic Senators and Congressmen come from these same crime infested, disease infested areas. A point made recently proves the point. 26 percent of all New Yorkers have Herpes for example. What other diseases reside there besides the obvious disease of Mental Illness. Why would anybody voluntarily live there? Vote McCain and Vote No To Obama and To anybody else that supports this Idiot.

From: Patriot--Jerome Ennis in Tuscaloosa, Alabama

Read it, again bryce
bryce 2:54 PM EST
Subject: Talent Scout
The problem is that the laws creating the Bush tribunals included language which specifically suspeneded habeus, which is strictly unconstitutional.
-----

The real problem in all of this is the terminology is the original problem.
War on Terror.
War on a word?
Yes
So now anyone who the government decides fits the description can be arrested.

This is the basis for all the confusion to begin with.
But you are wrong about what the Constitution has to day about Habeas Corpus.


Article 1
Section 9
Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

NOTE THIS PART:
"the public Safety may require it."

No war is possible w/o funding
BrianR writes: 2:45 PM EST
Declared v. undeclared war



When war is prosecuted using Congressional "deployment" and "funding" authorizations, Congress has retained control over the conduct of the war, and the President's role is therefore limited to carrying out the will of Congress.
----
ts:
With that standard, the Congress is the Commander in Chief of the US Military.

All Wars are Funded by Congress.
That is NOT the basis of authority.

The basis is the US Constitution, the President is Commander in Chief.
I see Bush is aiding an undermining of the US Constitution to give this opportunity to the Courts to begin with.
I do not trust this man any longer, but we must not allow the Civil Courts to take over Executive Powers, as they are taking over who issues Rights and who does not.
This Country says Rights come from God, not the Court.









Declaration of war
Would someone explain to me why a Congressional authorization of force is qualitatively different from a declaration of war? Is there some reason the law must include the words, "We declare war."? The U.S. Constitution does not say those exact words must be included in the law. It does say Congress has the power "To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water".

nmi
you say:My very words, spoken in grief on December 12, 2000, when Judge Scalia and his U.S. Supreme Court conspirators, ignoring the electorate, decided, in essence, to install George W. Bush as President.

What do you mean ignoring the electorate? The president is elected by the electoral, not the popular vote.

Talent Scout not worthy of you
You are being disingenuous. As you are well the Constitution only allows supension of habeus in two distinct cases, rebellion or invasion.

Anyone want to explain
How giving foreign combatants, in uniform or not the right to Civil Courts seen as "protecting the public safety'?


Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Someone explain how Civil Law takes jurisdiction from Martial Law?
These detainees were NOT arrested by Civil Authorities, but by the Military.

NO Civil Court has now or in the past ever took jurisdiction over the US Military Authority during War or Peace.

Military Law is to deal with the issue of National Defense, a Military AO.
The Civil Courts have NO SAY by law or Constitution to decide the STATUS of a COMBATANT, arrested by the US Military.

This is NEW GROUND, and illegal and unconstitutional.
The President is the one ELECTED TO BE IN CHARGE OF THE MILITARY, NOT the Civil Court house.


Thou are the man
bryce - 3:29 PM EST
Subject: Talent Scout not worthy of you
You are being disingenuous. As you are well the Constitution only allows supension of habeus in two distinct cases, rebellion or invasion.
------
I offer nothing but the TEXT itself, and you are the man who is disingenuous, stubbornly.
Here it is , word for word as it was written and ratified into law in 1789.
No changes.


Article 1
Section 9
Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

"The PUBLIC SAFETY MAY REQUIRE IT" Is not my words.
Its the Words of the Founders

So be stubbornly disingenuous all you want, and say its me, ha ha.
Thou are the man.


Sorry, TalScout

That makes no sense, and you're simply making the same mistake Bush and Congress did in not declaring war in the first place.

I clearly delineated the difference in the two states of conducting a war. You're now taking the Bush position: Congressional "authorozations" allow me to conduct the war, but I don't have to pay any attention to anything further Congress has to say on the subject.

Sounds like a dictatorship to me. That's how Caesar took power from the Roman Senate.


Further, you completely misinterpreted the "public safety" clause of Habeus Corpus in the Constitution, because the public safety words are clearly and distinctly limited to public safety in time of "invasion or insurrection", neither of which are currently applicable.

As to your 3:33PM post, the "public safety" is protected by keeping the guards in place against intrusive power of our own government. I'm not interested in losing the rights guaranteed by our Constitution, to either the terrorists OR the government.


Lestat, see my

2:45PM post for the answer to your question.

BrianR, 2:02 PM EST
The problem is that the GC differentiate between POWs and non-POWs. Your post seemed to assume that either the GC apply or they do not, and if they do, then anyone captured is a POW.

As far as I can tell, there's no legal difference between Soviet Cold War spies (who were not captured in a declared war) and terrorists. Both can be shot on site because they do not qualify for GC protections and are outside the jurisdiction of our courts. An American citizen would be an exception, but that doesn't mean every military detainee deserves habeas corpus. It just means the executive branch must weed out the U.S. citizens from the non-citizens. The citizens will then have habeas corpus rights and the non-citizens will not.

I think the common misconception is that judges are somehow more honorable or in a better position to protect rights than the elected branches are. Or that judicial oversight serves as a double-check that would not otherwise exist. But there are chains of command in the military and several layers of civilian control that serve the same purpose.

First they came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller


That's the point, Lestat

During a time of formal, declared war, the Geneva Conventions clearly govern. The situation is crystal clear.

In an undeclared war, there is no clarity.

As to Cold War Soviet spies, FYI we didn't shoot ANY Soviet spies; not a single one.


BrianR
I saw your post after I had already made my comment. talent scout answered your post at 3:19 PM EST.

talent scout wrote:
"All Wars are Funded by Congress.
That is NOT the basis of authority.

The basis is the US Constitution, the President is Commander in Chief."

BrianR
I think talent scout is saying Congress has two powers in war: to declare it and to fund it. He's not saying the CIC is a dictator.

I would call 19 *foreign* terrorists flying planes into our buildings an invasion.

BrianR
I should add that the Congress also has the power to "grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water".


You wrote:
"As to Cold War Soviet spies, FYI we didn't shoot ANY Soviet spies; not a single one."

But the point is that we could have. We did shoot German spies during WWII. They were not protected by the GC or the U.S. Constitution, even though we clearly controlled certain areas of Europe in which they were captured.

The President, the Elected Rep.
Of the people.
His first duty is the Protection of the Nation.
This Duty is not any part of the Court's Duty.
Never has been not only here, but in the entire world.

The Court House was Created to Judge LAW, and Criminals.
This is the EXTENT of their Duty.
They have no say in making any decision as to National Safety.
That is the Sole Duty of the ONE man the Nation Elects to MAKE these decisions.

The President of the United States ALONE is the man CHARGED WITH PROTECTING THIS NATION.

From ALL ENEMIES, Foreign and Domestic.
This Court is a greater threat to our liberties than 10,000 Osama Bin Ladens.

They are USURPING AUTHORITY OVER THE US MILITARY, AND THE PRESIDENT.
Taking unto themselves to decide the Status of Foreign Combatants, captured on the field of battle.

Never seen before in the history of the world before today.
Its nothing more than a power grab by the Court

I disagree, Lestat, on both counts

Flying planes into those buildings constitutes a terrorist act or an attack, but it's not an "invasion" which is defined as an "incursion of an army for conquest or plunder". according to Webster's.

And to say that simply being CIC grants unlimited powers to the President to do whatever he wants sounds an awful lot to me like dictatorial powers in a time of undeclared war.


Lestat, on your secong post

You yourself have raised the salient point: "Congress also has the power to 'grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water'".

That was the entire basis of Boumediene, as you'll see if you read the actual decision. Congress had passed into law TWO acts clearly delineating how the "detainees" were supposed to be treated, and Bush refused to follow those directions.

That was the basis of the case, and SCOTUS found that the pertaining issue, ruling for Congress against Bush.

Don't forget, this isn't a case of deciding FOR the terrorists AGAINST us as the good guys.

This is a case that revolves around Bush ignoring the clear direction from Congress on how the "detainees" were to be treated.

This is a ruling FOR Congress AGAINST Bush.

It doesn't set anyone free.

Public Safety
Cannot be narrowly defined as just saying it is about an Invasion or insurrection.

But I will accept insurrection covers the point very well in what the Court itself is doing.

in·sur·rec·tion

The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government.


This Court is in open revolt against the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.
If I was the CinC, I would have them arrested for insurrection against the Lawful Chain of Command, eliminating the Powers of the Execcutive Branch to Incorporate its powers to be subservient to the Civil Court in the area of Public Safety.

Strictly a power of the Oval Office to decide when, where and how to use the US Military.
After receiving the Declaration of war by Congress.
Which has been done.

SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq".

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS

The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--

(a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and

(b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions.

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
more....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2. html

The Court is dividing the nation, NOT Uniting it


BrianR
My position would not give the president dictatorial powers. He is accountable to the people, via election, and to the Congress, via impeachment/removal and the threat of defunding any war. My point is that there are constitutional controls on his power, but that does not include judicial oversight of non-citizens captured on the battlefield. That includes those who qualify for GC protections and those who do not because they disobey the "rules of war."

Congress does have the power to set up the rules (tribunals in this case) for handling prisoners, but it is ultimately the executive branch that tried the detainees according to those rules. My understanding is that Bush has not been refusing to follow those rules. Instead, his efforts have been delayed by the litigation in federal courts that led to the Boumediene decision.

The Court has issued
A no confidence vote to the US Military and the Office of the President.

This court is dividing the nation with a power grab.
Usurping unto itself as the only ones who can decide the status of a captured enemy combatant.

Abolishing the Office of the President as the one to decide how to protect the Public.

There is no precedence on law in the entire history of America that this Court is following to overthrow the Constitutional Duty of the President and the US Military to decide these issues.

The Court itself is in contempt of Law and Constitution

Well, TalScout, that's an interesting

premise. "Public Safety cannot be narrowly defined as just saying it is about an Invasion or insurrection."

The problem for YOU is that that's EXACTLY what the Constitution does, very narrowly define it to those two circumstances.

The Framers held Habeus Corpus as "The Great Writ", and did so for a reason, as they considered it the cornerstone of just jurisprudence.

If it could be suspended any time any President decided unilaterally that "public safety" was threatened for any old reason at all... well, it would be a meaningless right.

The "public safety" is at risk because people are driving too fast on the freeways; no more Habeus Corpus, no more traffic trials, take 'em out and shoot 'em! Drunk drivers are a "risk" to "public safety"; fail the field sobriety test and you go to prison for life, no trial required.

Obviously, extreme examples, but I think they make my point.




No, Lestat

If Congress makes the rules, they do NOT necessarily fall to the Executive to carry out. In this case Congress clearly made other rules, to be carried out by the Judiciary, and Bush chose to flip Congress off.

Further, your premise that elections are somehow the great check on his power falls to the same argument. If the President can arbitrarily suspend Habeus Corpus, what's to prevent him from arbitrarily suspending elections?

As I wrote earlier, this is exactly how Caesar seized power from the Roman Senate and ebcame Emperor.



talent scout
Once again, you said it best (4:36 PM EST). This all boils down to who has the authority to decide the issue, and it certainly is not, and never has been, the judiciary's. There are Constitutional checks on this power, but it is not the courts.

Ah, lestat, but you miss

the essence of the ruling.

There are checks on presidential power, those checks being the other two branches of government, all of which are co-equal.

By ignoring the laws passed by Congress, Bush exceeded his powers, and the other two branches called him on it.

Again, read the opinion.

2006 Military Commissions, by Congress
Fulfilling the Constitutional prescription that Lestat has brought up


The Military Commissions Authorized By This Legislation Are Lawful, Fair, And Necessary

With The Military Commissions Act, The Legislative And Executive Branches Have Agreed On A System That Meets Our National Security Needs. In the months after 9/11, the President authorized a system of military commissions to try foreign terrorists accused of war crimes. These commissions were similar to those used for trying enemy combatants in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and World War II. After the legality of this system was challenged and the Supreme Court ruled that military commissions need explicit authorization by Congress, the President asked Congress for that authority - and Congress provided it.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=1 09_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf


TalScout

That legislation has been supeseded by two subsequesnt acts, both of which are the basis of the ruling.

Again, read the actual decision.

Half a truth
BrianR
Well, TalScout, that's an interesting

premise. "Public Safety cannot be narrowly defined as just saying it is about an Invasion or insurrection."

The problem for YOU is that that's EXACTLY what the Constitution does, very narrowly define it to those two circumstances.
---

So define insurrection, is that is your own power to decide?
I do not accept that is the case.

I see this Court is creating an insurrection against the Constitutional Duties of the President and the US Military.
The Court is the one in Rebellion against Law and Order and Separation of Powers.
Not the President

And is what I said

Here ya go, TalScout

Per Webster's dictionary, "insurrection":

"an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"

A good example is the Civil War, where the South rose in insurrection against the Union. The Whisky Rebellion. The LA Riots. The Birmingham Riots.

The idea that SCOTUS is somehow in a state of insurrection is, frankly, very bizarre. I'm not even sure how to respond to such an astounding idea.

I'll sure give you points for originality on that one.


BrianR
I never said "the President can arbitrarily suspend Habeus Corpus". (You might be confusing that with my statement that we could legitimately be considered to have been invaded - I think you have applied that very term to Mexican illegal aliens. And the jihadists want to conquer us and institute Sharia law here.)

My position is that the executive has the power to determine if people captured on the battlefield are citizens and therefore entitled to habeas. If they are not U.S. citizens, then they are either entitled to GC protections or they are not.

Not only did you twist my argument to say that the president can do whatever he wants, but you completely ignored my mention of the impeachment/removal check.

You seem to want to extend the Constitution to protect people it was never designed to protect just because it seems distasteful to you that anyone would have no Constitutional or GC protections. If you want that, then you should push for a Constitutional amendment, not yet another judicial fiat power grab.

What Rights will a Civil Court Protect?
Habeas corpus is a procedural right. For those covered, Chief Justice Roberts noted the legal test is, “whether the system [Congress] designed protects whatever rights the detainees may possess.”


What procedural right to a Civil Court does an enemy combatant have?

What a joke it is to see this court create rights out of thin air.
With no law, no Constitutional protection is offered to an enemy soldier, in Uniform or out.

These men cannot be called POW's and judged by the GC's rule cause they are not signatory, not a legal entity as a nation is.

Leaving them in the hands of the US Military alone to determine their status.
Not a civil court

Very basic stufff here for you who has yet to understand the principles involved.
Or
The Duties of a Court v. the Office of the Presidential and Congressional Powers.
This court is in insurrection against the Constitutional Separation of Powers.

lestat
Most of American law is based on Common Law.In English Common Law you have an element of "Parliamentary Procedure",which guards against the making of insane decisions.Congress must make an "Open Declaration of War".This Constitutional requirement serves as a "Second" in Parliamentary Procedures.Congress knows; that the war in Iraq is an illegal war and it does not want to be attached to it's outcome...

Show it then
BrianR - 4:52 PM EST


the essence of the ruling.

There are checks on presidential power, those checks being the other two branches of government, all of which are co-equal.

By ignoring the laws passed by Congress, Bush exceeded his powers, and the other two branches called him on it.
-----

Show the Law Congress passed and the President has not followed.

By ignoring or contempt.
There is lots of ignoring the law and contempt for law, all coming from the court is all I see.

When did you decide to see the Court as King?

Obama: Give Rights to Bin-Laden
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Barack Obama's foreign policy advisers said Tuesday that Osama bin Laden, if captured, should be allowed to appeal his case to U.S. civilian courts, a privilege opposed by John McCain.

Responding to questions from The Examiner, Sen. John Kerry and former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke said bin Laden would benefit from last week's Supreme Court decision giving terrorism suspects habeas corpus, the right to appeal their military detention to civilian courts.

“If he were to be brought back,” Clarke said of bin Laden, “the Supreme Court ruling holds on the right of habeas corpus.”

Kerry, who applauded the Supreme Court ruling, said it will be carried out by whichever candidate wins the presidency.


Concerned American: Excellent Point!

"At least three of the "majority" in this case - Stephen Breyer, Anthony Kennedy and ex-ACLU lawyer Ruth Bader Ginsburg - certainly believe "international law" should be used as a template for making judicial decisions."

Stunning, isn't it? "International law" before the Constitution.

"It is a disgrace that so many on the Left would rather see one or more U.S. cities be annihilated in a nuclear/"dirty" bomb attack from al Qaeda than see such plots stopped because of this "BDS" with which they're incurably afflicted."

Could not have said it better myself!!!!

Lestat, that's not accurate

What I wrote was that barring a state of declared war, invasion or insurrection, Habeus Corpus can't be suspended. If it's done short of those circumstances as clearly defined in the Constitution, it is by definition arbitrary.

Habeus Corpus is NOT limited to citizens; where in the Constitution does it say that? Habeus Corpus is allowed to anyone under the control or authority of the US Government, be they citizens or not. Are you saying that if an illegal alien commits a crime in this country, he's not entitled to a trial on the issue? He has no right of Habeus Corpus?

Whether or not Jihadists want to overthrow our government is also irrelevant. There are a lot of people in the world who hate us. So what? We don't have them locked up in our prisons, and that's what's at issue.

As to the "check" on the President, I don't necessarily respond to every single point every person makes, especially when I find myself repeating myself so often here. I responded to what you wrote as to elections, because it raised another point in illustration of my thesis.

Lastly, I have indeed referred to the influx of illegal aliens as an invasion, and do consider it such. However, it's not an armed invasion, and note in the Webster's definition of incursion, the pertinent limitation is the word "army" as the incursor.



TalScout

I've already referred you to the decision itself... TWICE.

The laws at issue are referred to there repeatedly. If YOU don't want to take the time to do the research, that's your problem.

I'm not wasting my time going through there copying and pasting just because YOU'RE lazy.


Here's the link for you

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07slipopinion.html

Scroll down to Bemoudiere, and read it for yourself.

OUTSTANDING!!!

Having just returned and reading through the debate this afternoon, I was really very impressed.

GREAT discussion! GREAT debate! We could MORE like this!!



Here is my point Brian
You say:

"The idea that SCOTUS is somehow in a state of insurrection is, frankly, very bizarre. I'm not even sure how to respond to such an astounding idea.

I'll sure give you points for originality on that one."
---
What I am pointing out is how much the Court is responsible to follow the Constitution itself, as they are made to swear alleigence to it as it reads, not how they want it to read.


I consider Judge Taney's decision in the Dred Scott Case to be the Under pining decision that brought this nation to a Civil War.

The issue of Rights and who was to have rights is what caused all the arguments over States Rights to be Free or to be Slave States.
And began in Kansas.
Better know at that time as "Bloody Kansas".
Became bloody over rights issues.

I am saying this Court has no Jurisdiction to grant unknown before today RIGHTS to enemy combatants.

This is what they are doing, without Congressional input, overthrowing Executive Branch Authority.


TalScout, whether or not a decision

is a good one, and whether or not one agrees or disagrees with it, SCOTUS cannot -- by definition -- be in a state of "insurrection" as they are a part of the "government" and "civil authority" used in the definition of the term itself.

And yet again, read the decision. They did not "grant" any rights; they merely held that Bush had wrongfully failed to carry out the laws duly passed by Congress as to the treatment of the "detainees".

Those laws, passed by Congress, placed the status of the detainees under civil, rather than military, authority. They were within their powers to do so. Once that happened, Habeus Corpus automatically attached.

It's really that simple.



Anne
I did not say the rights of detainees trump the rights of Americans or our responsibility to defend ourselves. Stop putting words in my mouth.

The court decision does not free anyone in Guantanamo. All I am asking the government to do when they want to imprison someone for an indeterminate time is to give an objective reason based on real evidence for doing so. If they can't do that, then the government has no right to detain the person.

There are plenty of bad guys in Guantanom I am sure. Show the evidence and they will stay imprisoned.

I have to split for a couple of hours

Time for a haircut, and some other errands.

But I'll be back if y'all want to continue.


Brian R
A question....How does Congress declare war on terrorists not affiliated with any country?

Okay another....Do you realize what would happen if we did declare war openly, other than the enormous financial costs, what is the ripple effect of this?

Yep, Slacker

Exactly right.

Okay. Gotta go. I'll be back (to quote Dugout Doug).

Lolo

As to declaring war on terrorists, I actually addressed that up a little bit.

As to "ripple effect": if we were actually in a declared war, there'd be none, as the "detainees" would legally be POWs, with no rights at all.

Okay, this time for sure, I'm really gone.


I have to stop hitting the "refresh" button....


a Concerned American
Why would you leap to the conclusion that I think international laws trump all of ours?

Your assumption that I "would rather see one or more U.S. cities be annihilated in a nuclear/"dirty" bomb attack from al Qaeda than see such plots stopped" makes no sense.

How do you get there from my simple statement that if the government has evidence that a person needs to be imprisoned or killed because they want to do such a thing, it should be required to present that evidence and back it up?

There is no one who would argue that if the government has credible evidence that a specific individual is going to attack us with a "dirty" bomb they should be stopped and imprisoned. However, I would argue that if the government has no credible evidence against an individual or there is counter evidence that proves they are innocent, the government should free them. Do you really disagree?

Here is the Law governing Hamden

Brian
Also the Law the Court did not follow and the President did.
The Court is in contempt of Law,and Insurrection against the Executive Branch.



Detainee Treatment Act (DTA) (effective December 30, 2005) that states "[N]o court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." §1005(e)(1), 119 Stat. 2742.


Kudos BrianR
EOM

109TH CONGRESS


The President has followed the Law and the Law is from Congress.
Its the Court not following the Law.



HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SEC. 1005. PROCEDURES FOR STATUS REVIEW OF DETAINEES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

(a) Submittal of Procedures for Status Review of Detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan and Iraq-

(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate and the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives a report setting forth--

(A) the procedures of the Combatant Status Review Tribunals and the Administrative Review Boards established by direction of the Secretary of Defense that are in operation at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for determining the status of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay or to provide an annual review to determine the need to continue to detain an alien who is a detainee; and

(B) the procedures in operation in Afghanistan and Iraq for a determination of the status of aliens detained in the custody or under the physical control of the Department of Defense in those countries.

(2) DESIGNATED CIVILIAN OFFICIAL- The procedures submitted to Congress pursuant to paragraph (1)(A) shall ensure that the official of the Department of Defense who is designated by the President or Secretary of Defense to be the final review authority within the Department of Defense with respect to decisions of any such tribunal or board (referred to as the 'Designated Civilian Official') shall be a civilian officer of the Department of Defense holding an office to which appointments are required by law to be made by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

slacker: I don't believe that I put

any words in your mouth...

A little touchie, are we?

Office is Above the man
BrianR writes:- 5:49 PM EST
Subject: TalScout, whether or not a decision

is a good one, and whether or not one agrees or disagrees with it, SCOTUS cannot -- by definition -- be in a state of "insurrection" as they are a part of the "government" and "civil authority" used in the definition of the term itself.

And yet again, read the decision. They did not "grant" any rights; they merely held that Bush had wrongfully failed to carry out the laws duly passed by Congress as to the treatment of the "detainees".

Those laws, passed by Congress, placed the status of the detainees under civil, rather than military, authority. They were within their powers to do so. Once that happened, Habeus Corpus automatically attached.

It's really that simple.
----

This is from Congress Brian
Not the President.

Detainee Treatment Act (DTA) (effective December 30, 2005) that states "[N]o court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." §1005(e)(1), 119 Stat. 2742.

How come you and the Supreme Court ignore this yet accuse the President of ignoring Congress?

He is not the one who has ignored Congress.
The 5 Supreme Court members have done that, which you accuse the President of, falsely.

The Office is above the man, and the SC is attacking the Office


Anne
I am objecting to your comment that

"slacker seems to think that the "rights"
of the detainees are more important than the safety and well being of those living in the US."

I never said any such thing. Nothing I said implies that either.

I simply said the government needs to show it has credible evidence before it should imprison people forever. That's all the decision says in a nutshell. The court did not free anyone. It just requires the government to show they have real evidence against people they are holding and to give those poeple a chance to refute the evidence if they can.

What is your problem with that?

Well, TalScout

For the last time, I'll refer you to the decision itself, which you can read, and for which I've posted the link.

You keep quoting law that's inapplicable to this case. The decision itself refers to the specific acts of Congress which apply.

The plaintiffs appealed under other extant (and more recent) laws. It's not all that unusual for laws to conflict with other laws. That's one of the issues that SCOTUS has to wade through, and in the case of legislative/legal conflicts, make a determination of the law based on the grounds of the appeal.

That's what's been done here. Read the case, that'll refer you to the applicable laws used in this decision.


slacker: What I said was..

"slacker seems to think..." and based on your posts, that's the impression you left.

I stand by my post. If you don't think that, then you'd best be a little more clear and specific.

Detainee Act is the Law
http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

When the Court will not abide by the Law, and then accuse this very crime of another, they will generate all the confusion we now see.

The President has followed all lawful Orders, and the Court is not following the Law itself.
But pointing their finger at the President.

Typical of all guilty of a crime, they blame it on someone else.

This Court has no power to be above the law, even as it makes the claim it does by its actions.
No more than Judge Taney had in the Dred Scott Case.
The Court can be wrong and when wrong, their orders of mandamus are illegal, and do not destroy whats legal and what is illegal.

They have succeeded in dividing the nation more and more is all, and will live to regret it I am predicting.

Their issue of mandamus is no more legal than the ones the Founders rejected by King George the III, and tossed him out of America.

Okay, TalScout (Part 1)

Out of frustration, I've done some of your research for you. From the decision:

"The MCA does not purport to be a formal suspension of the writ; and theG overnment, in its submissions to us, has not argued that it is. Petitioners, therefore, are entitled to the privilege of habeas corpus to challenge the legality of their detention."

"The gravity of the separation-of-powers issues raised by these cases and the fact that these detainees have been denied meaningful access to a judicial forum for a period of years render these cases exceptional. The parties before us have addressed the adequacy issue. While we would have found it informative to consider the reasoning of the Court of Appeals on this point, we must weigh that against the harms petitioners may endure from additional delay. And, given there are few precedents addressing what features an adequate substitute for habeas corpusmust contain, in all likelihood a remand simply would delay ultimate resolution of the issue by this Court."

"Although the Court of Appeals has yet to complete a DTA review proceeding, the three-judge panel in Bismullah has issued an interim order giving guidance as to what evidence can be made part of the record on review and what access the detainees can have to counsel and to classified information."

"The Court of Appeals has jurisdiction not to inquire into the legality of the detention generally but only to assess whether the CSRT complied with the 'standards and procedures specified by the Secretary of Defense' and whether those standards and procedures are lawful. DTA §1005(e)(2)(C), 119 Stat. 2742. If Congress had envisioned DTA review as coextensive with traditional habeas corpus, it would not have drafted the statute in this manner. Instead, it would have used language similar to what it used in the statutes at issue in Hayman and Swain."

Free the Gitmo detainees!
I say free the Gitmo detainees. Then charter a plane and send them back to Afghanistan, where they will be greeted by a firing squad.

Part 2


"Under the DTA the Court of Appeals has the power to review CSRT determinations by assessing the legality of standards and procedures. This implies the power to inquire into what happened at the CSRT hearing and,perhaps, to remedy certain deficiencies in that proceeding. But should the Court of Appeals determine that the CSRT followed appropriate and lawful standards and procedures,
it will have reached the limits of its jurisdiction. There is no language in the DTA that can be construed to allow the Court of Appeals to admit and consider newly discovered evidence that could not have been made part ofthe CSRT record because it was unavailable to either the Government or the detainee when the CSRT made its findings. This evidence, however, may be critical to the detainee’s argument that he is not an enemy combatant and there is no cause to detain him."

"The role of an Article III court in the exercise of its habeas corpus function cannot be circumscribed in this manner."

"By foreclosing consideration of evidence not presented or reasonably available to the detainee at the CSRT proceedings,
the DTA disadvantages the detainee by limiting the scope of collateral review to a record that may not be accurate or complete."


This is as it should be, otherwise the government, as I wrote earlier, has the power to essentially become international kidnappers lacking a formal war declaration.


The Pueblo Incident

We are in an undeclared war with N. Korea that is in a state of cease-fire, and has been for over 50 years.

In January 1968, the USS Pueblo was seized by the N. Koreans, stating the Pueblo was within their claimed territorial waters.

We certainly can be considered a military force hostile to the N. Koreans.

We raised holy hell about our sailors and ship being seized by the N. Koreans.

I don't see much substantive difference in the two issues, though. Do we somehow have "rights" to seize foreign nationals without affording them access to a legal process that other nations don't have?


My word
but there are an awful ot of idiots in the first 20 or so comments. Couldn't take much more.

Who is lazy here Brian?
This is the part in expressed language you left out, too lazy?

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

'(e) Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

'(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or

'(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who--

'(A) is currently in military custody; or

'(B) has been determined by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in accordance with the procedures set forth in section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant.'.

----
We have not heard anything from an Appeals Court Brian.
Plain as can be said


no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

'(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba;

Oh, please, TalScout

I could have cut and pasted the whole decision in there. I limited myself to the salient parts, and you're still trying to quote issues that aren't even a part of the decision.

Enough. I don;t have the time or the patience for this nonsense.

Take a look at my "Pueblo Incident" post, a few up.

Better yet, watch what I'm about to post.


The Fifth Amendment

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

I draw your attention to a few things. The 5th Amendment does not confine itself to citizens; it says "no person".

Further, it declares limits "in time of War". Hence the need for a legally declared "War".

Further, in the Constitution, the word "War" is capitalized EVERY SINGLE TIME IT'S USED. That's why the Congress has the power "to declare War".

The ONLY exceptions are directed toward military personnel serving "in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger", which folks are covered currently under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

These "detainees" are still civilians under restraint by the government without being presented with formal charges. That clearly violates the Fifth Amendment as quoted above.

NO law that contravenes that protection under the Fifth Amendment is valid. THAT'S the issue that should have been cited in the appeal.

Rather, the USSC has upheld
around 800 years of English law.

Habeas corpus is for everyone, including "them danged ragheads". I don't care if you are xenophobic or racist: everyone has the right to find out why they are being held. Deny that and you step into the world of the Gestapo and the KGB.

Yep, Knight/baawa

Exactly the point I've been trying repeatedly to make for the last two days.

I DO NOT want a government with unlimited powers to detain or otherwise punish ANYONE under the guise -- particularly -- of an undeclared war, simply on its own determination, without recourse to and protection of constitutional protections.

Jeez, didn't anyone read "1984"?


I have read it all Brian
And have access to it just as you do, so no need to copy and paste it all.

But this is in direct and plain English.
Directly concerning Gitmo Detainees

http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

'(e) Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

'(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or

'(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who--
----



Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005


SEC. 1005. PROCEDURES FOR STATUS REVIEW OF DETAINEES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

(a) Submittal of Procedures for Status Review of Detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan and Iraq-




No need for opinions, read that section

5th Amendment is Civil Law
Has no place in this subject.
The detainees are under Military Law.
Not Civil Law.
They were not arrested by Civil Authority, but Military.
A totally different Law.
They are being tried under the Military Code of Justice.
The 5th Amendment is Civil Code

Big difference

I'm done with you, TalScout

I refer you to my posts "Pueblo Incident" and "Fifth Amendment".

I'm not going to sit here and parse a 20+ page document.


HAhahahaha, TalScout!

The Fifth Amendment is "civil law" and hence not applicable?????


That is totally absurd.

The Constitution is the ONLY universally-applicable law there is in this country. EVERY other law is subservient to it, on all matters, civil, military, or on any other basis.

That is an ESPECIALLY absurd assertion, as the Amendment itself refers to "War" conditions.


PS, TalScout

Under your reasoning, I have to assume that you'd have no objection to the N. Koreans keeping Lloyd Bucher and the rest of his crew under "detainment" up to and including this very day, right?


You say you are a Vet?

Now I have doubts.
Name for me an illegal search of your person or property the United States Military makes on any and every person in the Military.


BrianR 9:53 PM EST
Subject: HAhahahaha, TalScout!

The Fifth Amendment is "civil law" and hence not applicable?????


That is totally absurd.

-----

If you are going to make the silly remarks you do here, then lets take it along for a ride.
If they have the 5th Amendment Right to Habeus, then they also have 2nd Amendment Rights as well.
Give them back their weapons.

Now that is absurd.
There is a difference even if you do not understand it.
These people do not have 5th Amendment Civil Rights.
No more than they have 2nd Amendment Rights

TalScout

I really don't much care whether or not you believe I'm a vet, but here's the link to my Military.com profile: http://profile.military.com/member/view.do?memberId=165996 77

I post that more because I'm proud of my service than whether or not I give a damn if you believe me, because rest assured, I don't.

As to trying to equate the 2nd Amendment with the 1st, you're actually wrong again -- as usual, it seems. Because citizenship is NOT required in order to purchase a gun. As a matter of fact, if those "detainees" were to be cleared of any charges -- which is in itself interesting, because being "charged" with something seems to be the issue -- and they were able to enter our country legally, they'd be perfectly entitled to buy firearms absolutely legally.




Apples and Oranges
BrianR 9:56 PM EST
Subject: PS, TalScout

Under your reasoning, I have to assume that you'd have no objection to the N. Koreans keeping Lloyd Bucher and the rest of his crew under "detainment" up to and including this very day, right?
----
The North Koreans tried Lloyd as a POW.
Due to his being in a Uniform and having the Geneva Conventions as the Relevant Law he was held and tried under.

You drinking tonight?

There is no comparison to the Bucher situation and the terrorists.
NONE

Really, TalScout?

Bucher was "tried"????


Never happened. In any form at all.

Do you just make up... history?

Very weird post, dude, and historically inaccurate in every way. That simply.... never happened.

And when you have to ultimately resort to simple ad homina -- "drinking tonight", totally pathetic -- that simply tells me you're clueless and out of intellectual ammo.

I think we're done here.

I do not care if you don't care Brian
You take everything so personal anyway.
I do believe you are a Vet, not that I care if you care I believe that or not, I do not care.

I was just saying that to point you to your ownm experience with the Military, and think about if you were given 5th amendment rights. YOU were NOT.
Nor was I or any other person who served.

Anyone imagine the US Army or the Marine Corp giving the terrorists dressed as civilians 5th Amendment rights and knocking on their doors with a search warrant?
Instead of what they do, and kick down the doors and enter and search or destroy.


Hilarious



Brian's blowing a lot of liberal smoke
up my kilt.

Sorry, I've read the decision and the dissent, and I'll side with Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas. As well,your blogged opinion on the non- crucial nature of the SCOTUS appointments in the upcoming POTUS term is nonsense.

Like many of the Town Hall clowns, you seem to be a man without a party, and your pre-emptory denial of being liberal flies in the face of your above posts as well. Enjoy your kinship with Obama, Kerry et al with regard to this latest court decision.

Maybe you and some others here can form a new party..the "Neo-Nihilists" sounds catchy, and appropriate.

Bucher was tried by both the Koreans
And the US Military.

The Navy court of inquiry

Following the release, Commander Bucher was subjected to a court of inquiry by the Navy. A court martial was recommended. However the Secretary of the Navy, John H. Chafee, intervened on Bucher's behalf and no action was taken against Commander Bucher. Many believe that Bucher was treated badly by the government. Bucher followed his orders to not start any international incidents, and he felt that while a ship could be replaced, lives could not. Bucher succeeded in his task, as war did not result from the unprovoked attack on Pueblo. The US Government finally recognized the crew's sacrifice and granted Prisoner of War medals to the crew in 1989.

Goodbye, TalScout

We're done.

Is there no end
to these ridiculous indignant opinions? The conservative mind has become so accustomed, it seems, to an "end justifies the means" mentality that it's lost sight of principles and justice. The US government has taken citizens of foreign countries, forced them into confinement in Cuba, and insists it answers to no one in explaining why it is doing so. Except for "the war on terror." No charges, no due process, a kangaroo court. It's hard to imagine just which aspect of Bush's war of adventure is going to be judged most harshly by history; it's all been a nightmare. He thought a war would make a man out of him (since he skipped out on Vietnam). I don't think it has worked. And the price paid in life and treasure. Shocking.

Robear, you're right about one thing

I am, indeed, a man without a party.

No way am I voting for a liberal clown and Lieberman clone like McRINO.

Further, I guess it doesn't really matter who you and TalScout side with, because you guys are on the losing side, and in the final accounting, that's really all that matters isn't it?

As, in your case, I'm sure will be the case in November, too.



G'night, all. I'm done here.


Oh, TalScout

Your last post just appeared.

I didn't say Bucher wasn't "tried" by OUR Navy.

You asserted the N. Koreans "tried" him. It never happened.

Nice try on changing subjects, though, but no cigar.

Now I'm outta here.


Thanks for making my point Talent Scout
As you show in your post, #150 I believe, the law establishing the Bush military tribunals contains language which expressly suspends the writ, that is strictly unConsitutional. Also, the measure allows hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercive techniques, in violtion of the Uniform of Military Justice.

Brian, Neo-Nihilist Nominee Sez:
"Further, I guess it doesn't really matter who you and TalScout side with, because you guys are on the losing side, and in the final accounting, that's really all that matters isn't it?"

No my misguided friend. I sided with the "losing side" in the Kelo decision too. It does matter, and will continue to do so.

And I'm glad the word "clown" stuck in your mind, to the point you repeated it in your reply.

If Obambi squeaks by with a win in November, I'm gonna rub you and all the TH Clowns red, bulbous noses in it for 4 years. Unless, of course, the Fairness Doctrine shuts down this website.

Count on it. Loser.
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