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Thursday, January 03, 2008
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Ballot Box Integrity v. Voters without Borders
by Ken Blackwell
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On January 9, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear arguments for one of the biggest election law cases in years. This case might decide who becomes president of the United States in a close election, and shape the future of the country.

The Court will hear arguments in the consolidated cases of Crawford v. Marion County and Indiana Democratic Party v. Rokita. At issue in the case is Indiana’s new voter ID law.

This law requires people showing up on Election Day to show government-issued picture identification. It only applies to people voting in person. It does not apply to absentee ballots, so the elderly or disabled who cannot vote in person are unaffected. More than 99% of Indiana’s voting age population has acceptable ID. But if a person does not have a driver’s license, passport or other government ID, Indiana will allow them to get a state picture ID at their local DMV, free of charge.

Finally, if there is some unforeseen problem with casting a ballot on Election Day, a person can still cast a provisional ballot, and then has up to ten days to have that ballot authenticated and counted in the tally.

This law is designed to stop instances of dead people voting, living people voting twice, or fictitious persons using names like Daffy Duck or James Bond to vote. Yet some oppose this law, and it will now be decided by the Supreme Court.

There are two different ways to look at this case. The first is it burdens poor people and racial minorities more than others because they people are statistically less likely to have licenses or passports. The other way of looking at this case is that it’s about protecting our democratic system from being usurped by those perpetrating fraud to steal elections.

These come from two different ways of looking at voting rights. One outlook is that the system should do everything possible to facilitate people voting. This would mean making voter registration and casting votes as easy and fast as we can. The other is that voting is an important civic duty, with the emphasis on personal responsibility to properly register, go to their appointed locations, and fulfill whatever reasonable requirements are necessary to keep fraudulent votes from undermining the process.

In other words, the first approach focuses on getting people to vote, while the second focuses on making sure that only eligible voters have their votes counted.

This Indiana ID law is about civil rights. Every eligible adult citizen has a constitutional right to vote. Each citizen also has the right to not have their legitimate vote diluted by fraud.

As this case shows, voter fraud is always a danger to democracy. Briefs in the case show that the number of votes cast in Wisconsin in 2004 exceeded the number of registered voters by over 4,600. Since you can’t have more votes than you have voters, there was clearly fraud going on there. And since that amounted to about two percent of the total state vote, in a close election that could determine who takes the governorship, a Senate seat, or even the White House.

Election law cases like this balance the burden a law puts on the right to vote with the state’s important interest in ensuring that free and fair elections result in the people’s chosen candidate being elected. Every voter registration law is a burden; there’s no way around that. Every requirement you put on the voting system makes it harder to vote, but each effective requirement also makes our voting system more secure and makes it more likely that the candidate chosen by the people will be the one to lead them in office.

America is rare in its ability to maintain integrity in the voting booth. In many nations around the world ballot boxes are stuffed, voters are beaten, opposition candidates are thrown in jail, and thieves and criminals steal elections to seize power. While our system has its flaws, it is nonetheless among the most secure and honest in the world.

But, the stakes could not be higher. America has the largest economy and the most powerful military in the world. Over 300 million people live under America’s direct governance, and all six billion people on the planet are impacted by who sits in our Congress and the Oval Office.

The question before the justices of the Supreme Court is whether, given these stakes, this Indiana law appropriately protects the integrity of the ballot box while not harming the right of Indiana’s people to vote. This case will be closely watched by election officials all over America, and will shape how we safeguard our precious right to vote in America.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Beware the Huckster, etc.on ILLEGALS
I simply do not trust the Huckster on the CRITICAL issue of stanching ILLEGALS, who will destroy America if not stopped and reversed. We can do this by enforcing EXISTING laws and requiring REAL I.D. to function in America-- to work, rent, get licenses, seek services, attend college, pass go, etc. When they cannot get jobs and bennies ILLEGALLY, they will repatriate attritively the same ways they came.

ILLEGALS are EASILY the most serious threat to America's socio-economic well-being because today's modern service economy CANNOT benefit on balance from importing the ignorant indigent, who inevitably become HUGE net users of tax $ and social welfare services. The left wants them to vote ASAP to assure a permanent entitlement welfare state; hence, the drivers license motor voter fraud scheme rejected by 75% of New Yorkers. Here is an excellent summary of where the candidates stand on ILLEGALS (Mitt and Fred are best among front-runners) including actions while in office:

http://www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2006/prez08_gop 1.html

The Huckster has favored tuition for ILLEGALS and said that he does not understand resentment toward them. What about "ILLEGAL" does he not get?! Understand that some 22% of ILLEGAL aliens overstayed visas-- they need to be sent back also. America should only welcome educated, skilled immigrants who come here LEGALLY! Sen. Juan McQuisling deserves no 2nd chance for finally "getting the message," and Sanctuary City Regularization Rudy is a no-go also.

Democrats love voter fraud
I'm not surprised that one of the plaintiffs in the case is the Democratic Party of Indiana. Statistics continually show that many times more fraudulent votes are cast for Democratic candidates than Republican.

Also, as I recall, Wisconsin further loosened its voting requirements just before the 2004 election. Wisconsinites were permitted to show up at the polls and vote without prior registration. It's interesting that 4,600 more votes were cast in Wisconsin in 2004, than the number of registered voters.

Yes, voter fraud has been the Democrats' favorite dirty trick a very long time. It's no wonder they're going all the way to the Supreme Court in order to keep it.

I predict a win here
When more voters show up than there are registered voters there are more than that number of fraudulent votes, since typically only 60 percent of the registered voters normally show up.

I predict that this case will be a huge defeat for the voter fraud pushers as State court after State court has ruled that voter ID is NOT discrimination. In actuality, there are no constitutional grounds for the feds to get involved in this case to begin with. Until the 24th Amendment the eligibility to vote was strictly controlled by the States. The 24th amendment only prevents poll and other taxes.

Lodestar
A quick comment about the selection of those given the right to immigrate into the United States: your position, as it seemed, was that only the educated and skilled should be allowed to enter America. Well, honestly, when my mother came from Canada she had only a 7th grade education and no skills beyond reading. When my dad entered came to America from Italy, he had a 6th grade education and no particular skills either. They were legal immigrants, who were not easily welcomed by the American population, feeling that they would threaten the employment situation for all. I would guess, this has something to do with the limited immigration quotas, while we have only just so many mimimum jobs available, and we shouold keep these jobs open to US citizens, whomay or may not take these crummy jobs anyway.

Just remember Our Statue of Liberty and what she stands for. When it comes to the day she no longer stands for opening our borders to the "tired, your poor, your huddled massese yearning to breathe free, the wreched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift the lamp beside the golden door!" Also, my husband was a Vietnamese refugee, and my son is mixed. My husband had become a legal citizen and voted in all election, considered it his right and duty. Well, I guess that's all I wanted to say...

Vic and Fight4rights
Dear Vic,

I live in Florida, that great state that knew soooo many flaws in the presidential election against Gore, it had to go to the Supreme Court to decide, and even then The Supreme Court washed it's hands of it, it was a Bush after all. What can I say about entire districts votes being tossed due to some illegal workings,like the voting machine hadn't worked right, like ballot boxes missing from some of the polling stations, up north were reported by newsmen dozens of police in front of the polls checking and rechecking black voters id car registrations, etc, in order to inhibit them from voting, and it worked, and lots of otheres just watching this happening to t heir neighbors just turned away as the white officers harrangued the black voteres until they finally went away. There had been redistricting before the election, and the whole fiasco down in Dade county. Absentee ballotts were suddenly absent, or at least the Democratic ones. All these poll manipulating, and Bush won by only a few hundred votes. Well, in Florida, we all knew what happened, and we were well ashamed to have been so manipulated, so duped, that in the end our own votes didn't count. Is that not Republican fraud to the ultimate...

Jeanne Marie
I have two words to describe what I think of your "Republican Fraud" blathering. BULL SCHEIST!!

Who was it that only wanted the votes in two or three HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC dsitricts recounted, ad nauseum until the result came out the way THEY wanted.
THEN, who was it that wanted the votes of the WHOLE STATE recounted, ONCE.

Those two factors alone show you who was behind voter fraud, and cheating to win, and who wasn't.

Jeanne-marie
Gore lost Florida because the lames cold not cheat good enough. They tried to put too many ballots in the machine at the same time when stuffing the boxes and this is what caused the "hanging and dimpled" chads.

The supreme court only had to step in and prevent the lamocrat Florida court from violating it's own laws and stealing the election for Gore.

My only word for you is GO BACK TO CANADA. From your many posts here at TH you are obviously a communist.

Voter fraud
is the only reason for not requiring photo id at the voting booth. There can be no other logical objection. There is literally nothing I can do, in any legal sense, without producing my photo id. I just purchased $17 at CVS, and had to produce my drivers license to pay by credit card. I always thought Louisiana was the worst voter fraud state. And nothing was done in Wisconsin.

In Nevada they challenge voter petitions
to be sure the signatures are correct, not duplicated, or made up. (this is when the petition is something the pols don't like, such as accountability, or spending cuts) 10 years ago, I seem to remember that I needed to show my proof of identity, to vote. Is this some recent trend that all you need is a name?

Why?
Why are the Democrats so opposed to voter identification laws?

Simple. Two reasons;

1. Jimmy Carter, 1980.

2. Walter Mondale, 1984.

Even before the attempted "legal coup d'etat" by Gore in 2000, the DNC was perfectly well aware that when a Democratic Presidential candidate openly runs on anything even close to the core beliefs of the party's "core constituencies", he (or she)will be rejected by the electorate like an anti-drug-abuse skit would be ditched by the producers at "Saturday Night Live". From this, they (correctly) concluded that to win, they had two courses of action open to them.

They could lie and/or cheat.

They had great success doing just that in 1992 and 1996. The first time, Bill Clinton claimed he was a "moderate". The second time, he claimed he'd "learned his lesson". Of course, we now know he lied both times.

As for cheating, Google "Samuel Tilden" and "1876 Presidential Campaign Scandal". Gore was not the first Dem to try to buy, steal, or cheat his way into the Oval Office, and I guarantee you he won't be the last, either.

Since the Dems believe that "nothing succeeds like success", look for them to oppose anything that would impede their lying and cheating, from now unto infinity.

Oh, BTW- the other thing they could have done after the two debacles' in the 1980s would have been to take an honest, hard look at their "core beliefs", and ask themselves if those beliefs were still valid, or if in fact they ever had been.

Needless to say, this course was not considered seriously for even three shakes. (The amount of time needed for the initiation of a multistage fission/fusion bomb-type reaction- see "The Sum Of All Fears" by Tom Clancy.)


cheers

eon

I'm Rolling on the floor LMAO
Ken Blackwell on fraudulent voting...

well he should know.

I shouldn't laugh this hard so early!
Ken Blackwell weighing in on the potential for voter fraud. ken blackwell....

i have to stop. i can't keep from laughing.

I.D.
I walk into my polling place picture ID in hand. To SHOW to my neighbors, relatives and friends that have known me for more than twenty years. In Twenty-two years I have only missed one election. I am not alone it is expected accepted and done.

Marine's Dad and Vic
No, I don't come from Canada, I was born here and lived in Boston for 36 years. Without getting hostile, I thought I expressed what actually happened, at least some of what happened, very well, just for the record. I certainly didn't mean to excite hostile responses. It happened, we knew it happened, Gore did win the popular vote, that was the truth, so, ok Bush is president, that's all I wanted to point out.

Well, let's all hope that we have a successful, and Peaceful New Year, beginning with each individual, and the parties, too...a novel idea.

Immigration is the new affirmative actio
Will this split the Dems?

Politico-Immigration is becoming for the 2008 election what affirmative action/racial preferences was 15 years ago — the kind of emotional wedge issue that offers Republicans a way to split rank-and-file Democrats from their leaders.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the battle over programs aimed at helping minorities was a major factor in many political campaigns. The election results often appeared to contradict what seemed to be the public’s opinion on the issue.

Looking back, much of the confusion stemmed from the wording of many poll questions on the subject. They tended to show strong support for “affirmative action,” which was how the programs were described by supporters and, often, the media.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/immigration-is-new -affirmative-action

Jeanne-Marie
No, it DIDN'T happen!! Any photos of "white" police keeping high-melanin content men and woman away from the polls?? No? In this day and age of cameras on cell phones etc.?? There would most DEFINITELY been photos if the allegations (which is ALL they were) were true. Now, as for Gore/Dems trying to discount the military/overseas vote, as well as trying to only get heavily democratic districs recounted (until they came out for Gore) this is all documentable FACT!!. And the dreaded "butterfly ballot" b.s -- well, it was designed/implemented by DEMOCRATS!! What? you all too stupid down there to figure out a ballot?? You do realize that was a huge joke in the rest of the country, don't you? The FACTS are, even after much independant investigation, there was NO fraud! Other than what the Dems tried to pull - and were stopped. YOu say "we know this, down here" - well, no, SOME of you only THINK that - because you were TOLD that. Again, where's the photos!! ROTFL!!! THere are none, because there were NO policemen keeping high-melanin content people away -- THAT is the lie that you seem to have eaten up.

Jeanne-Marie
No, it DIDN'T happen!! Any photos of "white" police keeping high-melanin content men and woman away from the polls?? No? In this day and age of cameras on cell phones etc.?? There would most DEFINITELY been photos if the allegations (which is ALL they were) were true. Now, as for Gore/Dems trying to discount the military/overseas vote, as well as trying to only get heavily democratic districs recounted (until they came out for Gore) this is all documentable FACT!!. And the dreaded "butterfly ballot" b.s -- well, it was designed/implemented by DEMOCRATS!! What? you all too stupid down there to figure out a ballot?? You do realize that was a huge joke in the rest of the country, don't you? The FACTS are, even after much independant investigation, there was NO fraud! Other than what the Dems tried to pull - and were stopped. YOu say "we know this, down here" - well, no, SOME of you only THINK that - because you were TOLD that. Again, where's the photos!! ROTFL!!! THere are none, because there were NO policemen keeping high-melanin content people away -- THAT is the lie that you seem to have eaten up.

oops
sorry bout the double-post! I can see what people mean about the crappines of this site!!

Jean-Marie
Your saying it doesn't make it so. If any of your allegations are correct, where is the evidence? Not a single case has been documented, despite the partisian press' best efforts to unearth one. NOT A SINGLE CASE! Add to that the media's own recount confirmed GWB won and you seem incapable of absorbing reality.

"Facts are stubborn things" -- Sam Adams

"You are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts" -- DP Moynahan (D - NY)

OH, but I DO agree on one thing, Jeanne
I Do agree with you on the redistricting b.s -- unfortunately it's BOTH sides that pull that crap to create districts in each of their favor. But that's not a repub thing - BOTH sides do that to ensure as much as possible a pre-determined outcome for their RE-election. It really should be illegal, but "We, the sheeple" allow it to be, and keep voting them all in. And by the way -- district gerrymandering started out by Dems so they could create districts to ensure minority representation. On the surface, a "good" idea/ "good" intention that, as usual, got taken too far and backfired on us sheeple.

JoJoJams writes: "the crappines of

this site!!"

Ummm? But gee, you're here, aren't you?



Voter ID is death to Dumb-O-Craps
As Blackwell pointed out "Each citizen also has the right to not have their legitimate vote diluted by fraud".

And for Jeanne-Marie and her bogus claims of what "everyone knew about Florida" JoJoJams points out correctly - where's the visual proof given the highly visual medium available today? That's right Jeanne-Marie; it doesn't exist because it was made-up. Just as the 2004 vote had Dumb-O-Crap lawyers prefile lawsuits and put out calls for agrieved voters before the polls even opened the claim of supression is a red herring to stop their ability to have the dead vote.

Read anything involving the Dumb-O-Craps favorite group ACORN. It's all fraud, but of course that doesn't matter.

Hey, Jeanne-Marie...while you contine to hold onto your "stolen election" fantasies of 2000 why don't you rehash the "cannible" stories from Lousianna. -feh-

For Fightr4right @ 01:49
Not surprising, considering that dhimicrats have a proven record of stealing an election (1960). Eh, this was also an example of voter fraud--a lot of dead Chicago voters gave JFK a narrow victory over Nixon.

Eon, I didn't know that election-stealing was a well-tried dhimicrud strategy even prior to 1960. Another detail that dhimis hate to admit is that Carter's victory in 1976 was rather narrow (even WITH Ford getting tarred due to association with TrickyD!ck and thus Watergate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1976-Lar ge.png

Jean-Marie
I live in Fla and you are full of it. You LIBS tried to throw all of the MILITARY absentee ballots away because you knew the Military backed the REPS more than DEMS. What was really a JOKE was that ONE PERSON from PALM BEACH and a IMMIGRANT at that wasnt sure who she voted for and that caused all the CRAP that you LIBS scream VOTER FRAUD. By the way why didnt you mention the DEMS who had DEAD PEOPLE and their PETS registored to VOTE in Fla, also all the Northerners who came down from up north that own property in FLA and Voted TWICE once in their Northern states and Once in FLA for DEMS. I know you are a racist because the incidents you claimed that happened in Northern Fla never OCCURRED because we all know here in FLA that the Northern sectors of Fla have always VOTED REP. Its people like yopu who are the Problem with RACISM because everything is the WHITE MANS FAULT. WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOUR CANADIAN ARSE back to where you belong.

Anne
Ummm yes, I'm here. And only recently started posting. It can be a pain ending in double posts sometimes. On nearly every thread I've read, I see double-posts and apologies about them, so I don't think I'm alone. Look, if all I had was a rusty old Yugo to drive, I'd drive it - but I'd still say it was a "piece". :-)
I alos have problems with the site crashing my computer every now an then. Maybe it's because I use IE and should use a different browser, as well as not open up a gazillion windows. But it does seem to do with each page snagging the resources and wanting to refresh (because of all the advertising content?) Let me rephrase what I said so as not to offend you (*sigh*) ~ I can see what people mean about the crappiness of the utility and function of this site. Better?

A factoid to add
I analysed the 2000 results in FL, using the filter of a 1997 Parliamentary-constituency election in India (specifically, the constituency was in Bihar). The MP-elect there defeated his closest opponent by a total of NINE votes.

Just making corrections for conditions prevailing in non-Bihar Indian vs. US elections shows that BoarGore's claim was fraudulent (in point-of-fact, many of the African-Americans whom Bore claimed were disenfranchised had actually voted for Patrick Buchanan--which showed that they understood "if choice between known enemy and pretend-friend, vote for the foe").

Well Jeanne-Marie.....
I guess it would benefit all of us to investigate the entire matter and what really is true. I hate getting slapped down, don't you? Now I know I will be sure to know what I am talking about!

The key point about this column
is to decide if legitimate americans can vote in the election or is it to be turned over to foreign voters. Everything else is just fluff.
Remember this famous quote, "it is not who votes but who counts the votes that is important. Uncle Joe Stalin said that but if the machines are counting, then who gets to vote is just as important because those are the people who are really doing the counting.

I have a front row seat...
...to the fraud in Wisconsin. The powers that be in this state are ALL DEM, and even when confronted with fraudulent voter addresses that ended up being vacant lots and parking garages -- with pictures taken by journalists -- the case was thrown out for insufficient evidence. Yes, fraud is rampant in Wisconsin, I'm sorry to say, and the DEMS WANT IT THAT WAY.

Mom in Wisconsin

Jeanne-Marie
You are indeed courteous and articulate and i wish we all could maintain this level. Passion is not the best producer of moderation though.

Re Immigration
My grandparents came without any money too. The big difference with current day practice, is that they and millions like them came in LEGALLY under laws established for the good of the citizens already here. They fit right in to the economy of the day. Illegal aliens now in the country are just that..illegal and criminals by definition. Our economy now runs on trained and educated citizens. Our immigration laws accordingly, as established for the benefit of our citizens and recognizing our ability to pick and choose from hordes, establishes limits and admission standards. So what is wrong about that?

Gore in Florida 2000
I live and vote in Florida. The major factor in Gore's defeat was the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County. It confused a lot of barely literate and uninformed voters by having the names of presidential candidates on two pages. They voted (mostly for Gore) on 1 page, and then voted again for another presidential candidate on the second page, thus nullifying the ballot. My memory was that there were about 18,000 of these. Given the big pro-Dem vote in Palm Beach County, these would doubtless have been enough to elect Gore. Instant charges of Repulican chicanery were made, until it was seen that the entire voter process in Palm Beach County was under Dem control, including the design of the ballot. If you remember, the FBI invstigated your charges of voter intimidation and harassmnent. They found nothing, not that that means a great deal. :-D. Then a recount financed by a group of newspapers was conducted. Remember all those tv programs of bi-partisan teams trying to evaluate hanging chads? In every case the conclusion was Bush won Florida's electoral votes.

Jeanne-Marie
Now back to the column. What is your reaction to all those votes in Wisconscin which have to be voter fraud? Are you for or against solid Voter ID?

When Ever A Socialist Accuses
Someone else of fraud and treachery, you my be sure that they have been engaged in that activity, usually before anyone else thought of it. That's because most other people are honest and decent and wouldn't engage in such activities because it is wrong, dishonorable and dishonest.

But socialists don't concern themselves with such arcane and antiquated concepts, no victory using any means to achieve it is always acceptable even preferred, because socialists cannot withstand an honest examination of their beliefs and principles, nor even an unfettered general knowledge of them by the public.

The Democratic party is the socialist party in the United States, and they need three things to survive, propaganda and indoctrination, deception and obfuscation and voter fraud. Socialist judges also are a great help!

Jim Bowie
Counting is crucial. After all the controversy in 00/04, some idiots said we have to buy new "touch" machines. Talk about easy to cheat? I am a retired coder and i predicted then the flap i read about the other day where the idiots who wanted to spend millions on machines with no paper trail realize they want to go back. Naturally, people are getting rich on the taxpayer buck, as millions of dollars worth of hardwhere sits and rots somewhere.

ID okay to drink and drive
We all know why Hillary and Spitzer wanted drivers licenses for ILLEGALS...They want to import even more potential voters and citizenship be damned. You need an ID to drink , and to drive ...yet not to vote?? How ludicrous is that? Yep, it seems every day proves that commen sense is dead.

need ID to do anything of consequence
If obtaining proper ID is too much to ask to vote then how can the advocates for the poor claim that the poor actually even exist in out society?

The claim that obtaining ID is a burden is utterly indefensible and quite insincere. Please show me an individual that spends 364 days on the fringe, yet feels duty-bound to cast a ballot in the light of day, and I'll show you some lovely swamp land and a nice bridge I've got for sale.

To Jeanne-marie
at the risk of a double-post...

Please don't pretend to be a person of principle, when you studiously avoid mentioning the way the Democrats tried to disenfranchise folks like me:

http://www.nationalreview.com/babbin/babbin200408190823.asp

http://www.uhuh.com/laws/milivote.htm

Your way of viewing voter fraud is the epitome of the Progressive take: any method that promises to reduce Democrat votes (legitimate or unlawful) is a foul infringement of rights; any method (legitimate or unlawful) that promises to reduce Republican votes is acceptable and quietly encouraged.

I have yet to find ONE self-professed Democrat or progressive who could find the dedication to principle to stand up and condemn that nasty business.

rightmindedmom
I also remember the young man(wisc. bragging about voting for gore 4 times, but changed his story upon learning about federal laws.

The Socialist party have always had dead people voting in many large cities across the country.
*there is no democrat party*
And if a Socialist gets in the whitehouse, first on their agenda will be to legalize illegals.
It will be done early so people will forget by the next election.
MARK those words!!

Blackwell is SO right!
In my e-mail to him I wrote:

Wisconsin allows people to register on the day of election and I believe that they do not have to show proof of residence at the polling place. In 2000, there were reports of Univ. of Wis. students being bussed around to vote repeatedly. If I remember correctly, Gore won by about 10,000 votes in Wisconsin.

If you consider that all registered voters do not vote due to illness, emergencies, working late, etc., the actual number of fraudent votes is much higher than the statistics show.

If you must show a driver's license to cash a check, why not to vote, a much more important function?

Can anyone look at any "Democratic"
.... potty holder of any "elected" office and not wonder if he is not the beneficiary of the form of "quota-electing," AKA electoral fraud, that has for decades been the "Democrats" modus operandi?

Surely that my question is reasonable, is Black and White?

CTYankee
I have previously posted my strong objection to any requirement to "carry ID" and I continue to refuse. This does not imply that I am unwilling, at my sole election, provide positive identification. If I decide to vote, it seems reasonable that I be asked to provide acceptable ID.

Savage99 writes
"The major factor in Gore's defeat was the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County which confused a lot of barely literate and uninformed voters by having the names of presidential candidates on two pages; they voted (mostly for Gore) on 1 page, and then voted again for another presidential candidate on the second page, thus nullifying the ballot"

Eh, even totally-ILLITERATE voters (ubiquitous in Indian electoral constituencies) seem to know enough to mark only one symbol (or name) on the ballot; so why would US voters NOT know this?

Voter fraud!
__Without a proper ID process voter fraud becomes more extreme in its reality. When individual states impliment voting regulations for local elections, these same implimentations can greatly effect the process when nation elections coinside with federal elections. I witnessed this in Vermont when they allowed out of state students vote as residence of Vt. They could file an absentee ballot from their state of residence, along with voting at Vermont polling stations. I wonder how many more states allow such a fraudulent election process?

svpallava
Illiterate Voters, you ask i will tell you, its because DEAD PEOPLE and LIBS PETS dont know no BETTER.

Libs/Dems Steal
Democrats have been stealing elections for years. JFK stole the presidency in 1960 with dead people voting in Cook Co. Illinois. Glendenning in MD, Gregoire in WA, Sanchez in CA, etc, etc... That's why they like motorvoter--more opportunity for fraud.

An idea
What about issuing a card (no, I don't mean the letter-size certificate with picture on it, but a wallet-sized ID) to newly-naturalised citizens (optional for those born in US) which can be used as voter ID?

Note: obviously, I'm pilfering this idea from Canada where this has been done for over a quarter-century.

No one has mentioned
the extensive investigation conducted by all the major newspapers in which they were looking for evidence of the rumors and lies floating as to republican wrongdoing and a Gore win. They were not successful. Bush still came out with a win.

No one mentioned also the impact of the MSM on voting. For instance, in declaring a Gore win, many voters in the panhandle on a different time zone, stayed home. This area is more republican then down state.

The point is, democrats are supporting a no ID because they benefit from it, clear and simple. They could care less about those of us who vote legitimately and have our vote cancelled by illegitimate voters (some who are dead or felons.)

Why don't we get it over with and let
the whole dang world vote for our President?!!! Isn't that what the Globalists want anyway, to have a one-world system?

This death by a thousand cuts is like a slow motion train wreck!!!

Either put on the friggin' brakes, or speed up and head over the cliff! This waiting for the demise of my country is killing me!!!

Some of you
seem to hint Blackwell was quilty of voter fraud. Proof?????

Voter I.D.
The argument that this imposes a hardship on the poor, as they are the most likely segment of society to not have I.D., is bogus and disingenuous on the part of the liberal detractors to this law. The fact is any poor person or person of need, receiving any form of government subsidy, has to have a state issued photo I.D. to get their benefits be they Food Stamps,Medicaid,Social Services, Etc Therefore the majority of these people already have acceptable photo I.D. and the law as written has the necessary safeguards in place to accommodate those, who for some reason, do not. End of argument

loco
everyone has learned to disbelieve anything the MSM says.

For example, ABC has George Porgie Stephanie-opolis as a commentator for the presidential campaign, when he used to be a frontman for the Clinton machine.

Can you imagine if FOX hired Karl Rove as a political commentator... can you imagine the outrage from the Leftie Losers?

CBS was caught making up false stories about President Bush and falsifying documents. Can you imagine the uproar if Rush Limbaugh was caught falsifying documents about the Shrillster?

There is a double standard, but at least it is out in the open.

Forewarned is forearmed

To ctyankee
Something like 76% of Americans living below the poverty line can afford air conditioning. Around 75% have a car; 30% own more than one. 97% have a color TV and approximately 62% watch cable or satellite. Yet Democrats would have us believe that a driver's license or other form of official ID is beyond the financial reach of many millions.

It depends on the individual's sense of priority. Anybody who finds an extra five cable TV channels or an extra case of beer per month more important than voting isn't worthy of sympathy, in my humble opinion. He's made his choice.

Case in point, though the issue is unrelated: my mother-in-law in southern Louisiana can't afford a reliable auto, air-conditioning OR cable TV. Yet when Katrina came, she had enough money saved to evacuate herself, her invalid father, and her mentally-troubled brother by bus. Of course, she did it by making their survival in event of hurricane a priority; she set aside a small handful of dollars every month over a period of years in preparation for the obviously inevitable emergency.
Since her wisdom spared her and her dependents from being miserably trapped at the Superdome, they missed out on the publicity and sympathy poured on the can't-call-them-refugees who could never be bothered to proactively help themselves.

The difference in these two situations is that voting is not a matter of survival. While we have an obligation to help those in harm's way (while not pretending they aren't to blame for their own failure to act), we are under NO obligation to ensure that people can vote despite their own folly and misplaced priority.

By the bye, my mother-in-law ALSO makes certain she is able to cast her ballot every election -- usually for the Democrat candidate. She might vote differently this time, though -- she's still pretty disgusted at how years of mismanagement by Democrat leadership left New Orleans in the lurch.

Voter Fraud is Great!!!
How else can the Democrats get enough votes to win? They want no voter I.D. and to allow all illegal immigrants to vote. Every person ought to be able to vote as many times as possible by abseentee ballots and then go to every voting poll they can get to to cast a vote. Democrats also need the residents of the cemeteries to cast their ballot as often as possible. So why have any rules when they are not going to be enforced anyway?

RR

Mountain Rose
Unfortunately, perpetually cynical people are always waiting for the nation to collapse. People were expecting it to collapse a few short years after its founding.

Worry not. It will collapse, like all nations eventually do but it likely wont be in your lifetime, or even your grandchildrens. But the nature of government specifically, and nature in general, is that things change. Even when we dont want them to

The cancer within.

Three simple words for the Democratic Party of Indiana... shame on you.

It is absolutely unbelievable how many dishonest politicians we still have in power, on both sides. But even (much) worse... is that so many of us are still willing to support them.

Integrity does count, and so does character.

Maybe one day, perhaps a few more Americans will come to their senses. And maybe they'll see that what's good for America... is good for all.

Maybe.




VOTER FRAUD = POLITICAL COUP

.....Voter fraud is the equivalent of a political coup and any Party that engages in this deceit should be tried for Treason for trying to overthrow the Government .....COLOSSUS

To Retro Ranger
The question that ought to trouble Democrats is: WHY do illegal immigrants, NAMBLA members, and convicted felons find their party so attractive?

It seems to me that if one's candidates or platforms are irresistable to lawbreakers and perverts, that ought to be a matter for concern.

Jeanne-Marie
is Exhibit A as to why we should not allow uneducated and unskilled immigrants into this country legally or otherwise. Poor, uneducated, and unskilled people and their desendents simply don't vote for freedom, liberty, and small government. They vote for hand outs, big government, welfare, and entitlements. We have enough native born that want something for nothing -- why should we import more?

Jeanne-Marie, if I were Emperor of the United States the first act I would undertake is to have that Marxist inscription under the Statue of Liberty removed. In a welfare state such as the modern day United States, that inscription is nothing more than an ode to the redistribution of wealth.

Ex-Wyomingite
Your last post was one of the best I have read in quite some time. It's amazing how some people fail to recognize modern day realities while comforting themselves in idealistic poetry of long ago.

Don't mean to be a killjoy
But the fact is that there is absolutely no right to vote in federal elections contained in the Constitution. As noted, the Constitution was amended to prevent disenfranchisement WHEN a state provides voters with a voice in the election of that state's representatives to the Electoral College.

The states, through their Legislatures, have the right to determine how the electors for President and Vice President will be determined. In theory a legislature could hold a mud wrestling contest and it would be constitutionally valid.

In fact, until the 17th Amendment was ratified, Senators were not elected by the people. That's why there are two houses of Congress -- The House of Represtatives is the house of the people; the Senate was originally intended to represent the states as individual entities.

Unfortunately, too few understand the intent or reasoning behind our representative form of government and too many have been working diligently to change it to a pure democracy, which our founders were very much against.

OK -- back to the mudslinging.

the costs of voter fraud
Voter fraud has cost voters House seats, Senate seats, governorships, and maybe even the White House.

We need to fix this problem.

Si se puede (yes we can)
What illegal aliens chant at their marches

Si se puede (Yes We Can)
Yes we can:
Ignore your laws.
Enter your country any time we feel like it.
Collect benefits to which we are not entitled.
Tell you what your immigration policies should be.
File thousands of lawsuits to prevent you from enforcing your laws.
Vote in your elections fradulently.
Take your country.

Liberals
Have fought any sort of voter IDs'.Over and over they do this, trying to say the poor will be hurt in this. Even when the State said they would send people to homes of the sick, and elderly, and poor people with no transportation, and make them identification in their homes. Still the liberals fought it.
Makes you go HMMMMMM!!!!

voter integrity
it never ceases to amaze that the dims stand against voter integrity. They can always find transportation to get voters to the polls. In iowa they are providing babysitters for those attending the caucuses. But still they claim that at the precinct level they can't make sure their constituents are legal voters. In today's society various forms of id are required to conduct life. Are we to believe that the alledged 1% of the voters in indiana are lving a life so far out of society they don't require the same things the rest of us need. But as typical the dims can always find another victim class to enable. Howewver in this case there is a solution that will cost the 1% absolutely nothing but a small amount of time. But isn't voting the one thing we should automatically understand is honest at all times. It seems the dims want the votes vcounted even if they are not cast legally.

My Dad
said in 2000, and he was 75 at the time, said that if a person was too weak to punch out a chad, too dumb to read the ballot correctly, or needed someone to show them how to vote and who to vote for, maybe they should not be allowed to vote.

What was even stranger was that a psychologist in Georgia took the Florida butterfly ballot, and replaced the names with pictures of cartoon characters, then had school students vote for Mickey Mouse. Strangely enough all those second graders voted correctly. Seems 7-8 year olds could read the ballot and the instructions better than some adults.

Why would anyone not want
Why would anyone not want to know the true voice of the people? Free speech moves us closer to truth, reveals truth from error, and ultimately preserves freedom. Why would anyone prefer lies to truth? Lies result in bondage.

We each have our own divinely bestowed right to see as we will, and to speak. Honorable statesmen have done this in a civilized manner in free societies, including our own. The majority rules because the majority is usually right in a righteous society, but not always. History teaches that when the majority is consistently wrong, they fall out of divine favor, and walk down the path to self-destruction.

People are free to disagree in a nice way or in a mean way. Many have been enlightened by the teaching of the greatest philosopher of all, who taught: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," an idea that is simple to the understanding of even small children, and has the capacity to change the world.

One of our current presidential candidates embraces the teachings of a religious leader from the past, who taught: "I teach them [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves." That candidate is Mitt Romney. The religious leader was Joseph Smith. As for me, governing myself, according to correct principles, meaning, principles that have been time-tested and their consequences are evident, translates to freedom from the notion that we need someone else to rule over us.

The secret ballot cast into the box by each individual soul at the election poll to choose our public servants, and to pass laws, is the purest and surest expression and preserver of freedom. Those who seek to pervert it by falsification are enemies of the people and of freedom and of truth. Ensuring the integrity of the vote is paramount to preserving our liberty as individuals and as a nation.

No one mentioned my favorite
In my lovely home state of MD we had a court ruling in a gubernatorial election that "yes there was fraud" but "not enough to matter". Oddly enough this went in favor of the Democrats who have run this state as their private domain for quite some time... Strange how that works. (It is also interesting how in the same election some districts had votes in excess of the signed voter cards. Also interesting how the judge throwing out the challenge moved up to the state supreme court very soon after... Ah, the joys of living in a blue state. -- I had forgotten some of the better details, but did a bit of online checking to make sure I remembered correctly and some nice writer actually reminded me of the even m ore scandalous details.)

Then again, maybe the ruling meant that there was less fraud than usual, so it shouldn't beheld against him. After all the dead people only voted once each, so it was what passes for a fair election here.

Democrat Policy
Vote early.
Vote often.

Voter ID negates this policy.

To bob
I'm certain there were people who recognized and declared the decline of the Roman Empire decades before its fall. They were probably called cynics, too.
Don't be in too great a hurry to discount accusations of decay off-hand.

On the other hand, one musn't sweat what one can't change. The great thing is to be neither unseeing, nor yet disquieted. One does what one can to improve the situation and entrusts the rest to God.

Be kind to immigrants
Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are not taking jobs away from residents. The economic truth is that the more people there are, the greater production there is.

The 1990 census showed that the fertility rate in the U.S. was below replacement rate, at 1.7 births per woman. It has continued to decline, and has been declining since Roe vs. Wade legalized abortion in 1973. With 1.5 million abortions per year over a period of 44 years, we would not have enough working people to sustain the U.S. economy, let alone a standing army, without immigration. Europe is facing the same problem, and has imported 11,000,000 Muslims to compensate. The U.S. has allowed over 15,000,000 immigrants to cross our southern border, beginning in the early 90's, in order to compensate for a non-replacement birth rate. Russia and China are losing population, and their future is in jeopardy, looking forward fifteen to twenty years.

We need the immigrants, but for national security reasons they should only be allowed to enter the country according to the rule of law. Work visas should be issued liberally, under the law, in order to sustain our growth-based economy. But illegals should be sent home and should be required to abide by the law in order to return, for the order and preservation of our nation.

Absentee voting
Where I live (WA)the Dems have eliminated any concern about showing ID - all but one county in the state now has absentee voting ONLY. Ensuring citizenship when a person registers to vote (or gets a driver's license) is now the only way to keep non-citizens, dead people, pets, etc. from casting a ballot. I don't hold out much hope for voter integrity, when the Governor (elected by Dem voter fraud) continually pushes for benefits for immigrants (without differentiating between legal or illegal). When she proposes that they be given drivers' licenses to "make us all safer" (a la NY's attempt), and the bleeding hearts in this state acquiesce, then voter fraud in this state (and permanent control by the Dems) is guaranteed.

Loco

I heard for years, years ago about the voter fraud in west Texas and Panhandle area. They would, for instance, drive up to the back of a voter location during off hours and unload a truck load of Mexican wetterbacks(can't say that other word at TH) to go in and vote, with instruction of course. The Democrats have practiced this for many, many years. In many cities they go house to house registering voters who may or may not ever vote, but somebody does vote for them at election time.

You know in Mexico all voters have to have a voter ID card which is good for about 5 years. Heck, they ask for that for just about anything you do with the government, ie., go get your baby's birth certificate, get a driver's license, arrange almost anything with some official office. Even the banks insist on that plus two or three receipts from your home residence like phone bill and electric bill to PROVE your residence.

All their ID's have their picture and their signature impressed and under plastic so as not to alter easily. Then when you vote or ID yourself for any reason they look at you and your signature for positive ID.

Don't tell me it' is less important for us to ID our people than it is for Mexico, la, la land. It's time we got off our duff and figured out who is who. They also have a representative or two from every party present at all booths. They have printed voter registration sheets that include the picture of each voter allowed to vote there. No ID or no match and you go home without voting.

Voting is not only a right, it's also a privilege and should be treated as such.

I have always bragged overseas about our great liberties. It is time we caught up with the rest of the world, at least as regards identification, which we give away like it had no value. It would be a lot harder for someone to use your credit card or your stolen checks to screw yo if they had to show true official registration, picture and all with signature.


The real cost of voter fraud
Eventually, if there is known, significant fraud occurring, the real cost will be our democracy. People will simply stop voting. Even now, one of the reasons people don't vote is that "it doesn't make a difference". Well, imagine how much more prevalent that attitude will become over time with fraud occurring.

Voter Fraud

The case mentioned in the column is epic. Wisconsin with more votes than voters. Latin America has suffered for years with this problem, but they put voter controls of all kinds into place.

Now think about the "Wisconsin case".

They were only over by "two(2) percent" the author says. So how many actually were false, not two percent, anyone knows many people do not vote for many reasons. Therefor the actual voter fraud was probably on the order of "Ten(10) percent", or more.

That's enough to make or break any election. Now I wonder why the Demoncrats are always the ones to contest stricter laws. There's no wonder to it. Their's is the primary voter fraud. let's get some sense and put a stop to this larceny.

They hung guys in the old west for stealing a horse or cattle. What should we do today to those who are stealing elections.??. 30 years hard labor at least. Reichers Island at least or send them to that sheriff in Arizona who has them in tent camps. yea, that sounds about right.

We can't send them to Mexico. It's too easy to get back.


Lumberjack
They didn't misdvote because of stupidity. Those bad ballots were the result of trying to stuff too many ballots at the same time. They got sloppy.

the dims and lyndon johnson
the ideal the dims still look to is when in one election lyndon johnson not only received 100% of the vote but they voted alphabetically.

reply to: Jeanne-marie
re:
Jeanne-marie writes: Thursday, January, 03, 2008 5:45 AM
*************************************************
(please reference my initial, first post for context)
I fully understand that America has taken in many undereducated LEGAL immigrants in the past, but we live in a different America today. I teach economics and business to college students... we have comparatively few manual labor jobs created in America today, and we devolved into an advanced service economy versus the agrarian-based economy of the 19th century. it is also a myth that "they do jobs Americans won't do"... when the govt. stages show-raids, Americans line up to get their jobs back.

Other advanced economies accept ONLY educated, skilled immigrants because they KNOW that the madding crowd of the ignorant, e.g., the 78% of ILLEGALS who have flooded across our border, will ineluctably be HUGE net users of tax $ and government services-- this is a metaphysical certainty.

ONLY educated immigrants will be net positive contributors, who also learn the language and assimilate much more surely. As Pat Buchanan notes, the sheer number of ILLEGALS is unprecedented, bilingual education is a disaster, and the PC ilk is hard at work trying to allow Hispanics to cling to Spanish, which is a formula for assured poverty and barrio balkanization if they are allowed to stay.

To marjay
Agreed. If we could turn off the tap of illegal immigration, we could greatly increase the permitted rate of *legal* immigration.

And with legal immigrants we get people who do not need to hide away in closed, secretive and socially 'indigestible' communities.
We can't turn immigrants into Americans if they hunker down and avoid interaction with the larger society. Per my experiences in Texas, this is what happens with illegals.

A disclaimer, here: I have no desire to turn immigrants into clones of myself; only to inculcate American principles of open, democratic rule of law. I've been to Mexico and found the people generally wonderful, but the system of government and law to which they have been habituated is a very, very poor one.

hdhouse
You stay down there on the floor laughing, buddy! Ken Blackwell effectively defended and executed the voting laws and regulations of the Great State of Ohio that have been in place the majority of my voting life. Here's another funny for you: the laws and regulations, ( including bi-partisan poll operation ), were the same in 2004 as they were all those years dems like Metzenbaum and Glenn won term after term. The voting procedures were the same under Rhodes as Gilligan, Ford as Carter, Nixon as Clinton, . . long before Blackwell, we followed the same voting procedure and NEVER did anyone question the system. It wasn't till Ohio became crucial to Kerry that any democrat ever cried foul. How come?! All those years, no fraud, no change, yet somehow Ken oversaw the most successful and un-prosecuted, ( not un-investigated, mind you ), election fraud in history. Even the reports that softened the investigative results with statements of " wrong-doing on both sides", were devoid of actual factual incidents of republican abuse. Funny how the facts of fraud on behalf on dems were clear and prosecuted publicly, ( crack for registration, dead and fictional names on registration forms ), yet no republican ended up in court as a defendant.

Yep, funny stuff!! You just keep rolling around on the floor laughing your a** off. Maybe once you free yourself of that particular bit of anatomy, you will find the logic and vision to see reality!

marjay
"The economic truth is that the more people there are, the greater production there is."

So you're saying that you would rather be the average citizen in China or India than the average citizen of Monaco or Switzerland? What you open borders types fail to recognize is that growth and production tied strictly to demographic growth does nothing to improve the lives of citizens. Per capita growth is what is important and that has nothing to do with adding more people.

I wish I had the link but the Drudge Report had a link about a week ago that reported that the fertility rate in America had now reached replacement level. I just don't get you depopluation scaremongers. The United States has grown it's population at 3rd World rates as we allow in the 3rd world at unprecedented rates both legally and illegally. We are set to add more people to this country in little more than 50 years than what we had in this country in totality in 1960. Seriously, please tell me why I should be concerned about depopulation in this country while we are under assault from a wave of 3rd world humanity blowing through our borders and filling up our maternity wards?

svpavalla of 10:28
My guess: There is a difference between being illiterate and being stupid and/or ignorant.

Unreal
Liberals are STILL crying about Al Snore. No problem, just nominate another effeminate moron. Shrillary should do :)!

To Sammy
Many Americans are choosing to either have one child, or none at all. We don't want to all grow old with noone aroud to make the wealth to pay the bills; we also don't want to be inundated with people who are not, and have no desire to become, Americans.

Nor do we want to ossify into a slowly-dying group like the Western Europeans, forced to import immigrants who hate their very social beliefs, in order to do the work and generate the money to pay the Europeanss geriatric health-care bills.
The French desperately hope their immigrants will Understand Their Place, and remain in the slums the French have set aside for them... and preferably stop burning expensive cars. The Germans just hope individual Turks will Go Away before they get old enough to start using the socialized medical system themselves -- indeed, the Germans even tried bribing them to go home before they get old and unproductive.

Those methods aren't working very well.
No, what we want are more Americans who have a loyal view of the nation and its good that more or less coincides with our own. Doesn't really matter if an increasing number of citizens have black hair and brown eyes, as long as they regard themselves as citizens of the United States and feel entwined with its collective well-being, instead of with Mexico's. The best way to do that is with managed, LEGAL immigration.

Or you could try convincing millions of young Americans that marriage and family is better than whooping it up in a state of perpetual, progeny-less adolescence.

Bring On the ID Mobile
If this country can arrange a service which has trucks filled with books trolling inner city neighborhoods in order to provide reading opportunities to underprivileged children, it can certainly afford to do the same to provide government issued photo IDs to anyone who needs them in order to vote.

That the Democrats, who are always in favor of spending more money on programs for the poor, have not thought of this is ample proof that they are not really concerned with the ability of poor people to vote.

Definitely Needs Some Hard and Fast Rule
The pathetic argument that demanding voter ID is discriminatory is---just pathetic. "Poor people" have no problem affording NIKES and WALKMEN and whole lot of other crap. In NY I am sure they can afford the $15 or less to get a non-driver ID (that's what I have, and got one when I was temporarily on assistance). The problem is this, a person (poor or otherwise defined) needs to get off their butt and get themselves together so they can go down to the DMV and get the ID. Some people are just so clueless that they don't know how to get it together. BTW, when one needs to apply for assistance, you have to practically bare your backside before any benefits come through--so going down to the DMV should be a cinch.

Tallil2long
Perhaps you missed the comment about the drudge report link. We now have a fertility rate that is at replacement level -- in other words we no longer need to import people to stave off depopulation. If the level decreases I wouldn't be against a very small level of legal immigration that draws from the best and the brightest the world offers such that it makes up any shortfall. However, our current system goes waaaaaaaaay beyond trying to make up any real or perceived shortfall in our fertility level. It gives us a 3rd world rate of growth that is a future ecological burden and potential disaster that threatens to seriously harm our comfortable and abundant way of life.

If not for the welfare state, Europe wouldn't have a problem with a little depopulation. Of course without the welfare state they could probably afford to have more children. Whatever the case too many people is a much greater threat than too few -- in this country, Europe, and throughout the world. Don't take my word, check out the numbers.

voter fraud
In 2004, PA had the most voter fraud in the country. That is why the Viet Cong candidate got PA's Electoral College votes.
The PA Legislature passed a bill to require ID to vote, preventing voter fraud. Governor Rendell vetoed it and the democrats sustained the veto.
FRAUDULENT VOTING, BEING AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE LAWFULLY-ELECTED GOVERNMENT, IS TREASON!!!
This means that Rendell and the democrats have committed aiding and abetting treason thousands of times.
The SCOTUS should rule in favor of requiring that voters have ID to vote.


absentee voting
In my humble opinion alot of people that use absentee voting are just to damn lazy.I know I have two sisters that won't get off their fat azzes to vote but have no problem going to a casino to gamble.This is not meant to disparage people that can't get around to vote,but to tell of abuses of voting rules.

N. Jersey
has to be the most corrupt "voter" h*llhole in the world. I used to be an election judge at polling sites and usually caught the third time someone showed up as a vote ringer, but I didn't always catch them the second time.
No one ever argued or complained, because they just went down the block to the next polling site and voted as someone else there.

We know in CA a Congressional vote was skewed by illegals brought out to vote by La Raza to beat Rep candidate Robert Dorman by 984 votes. Up to 5000 votes in that election were disputed.

La Raza, ACORN, the raft of special interest Dem./lib. org.'s register millions of questionable voters who are allowed to cast a vote and then be "challenged" later. How likely is that?

Consider the last governor's race in Washington where the Rep. won with two recounts, but on the third, a closet-full of discarded ballors that weren't correctly signed or dated were discovered, and altho' tossed by election officials as voided, a JUDGE ALLOWED THEIR INCLUSION IN THE LAST RECOUNT, AND LO! AND BEHOLD! the Dem. candidate won, the state immediately certified the vote (remember when it was a crime for FL to certify the 2000 pres. vote without going to the Sup. Ct.?)and installed a Dem. gov. Surprise.

Libs. cannot get enough elected officials to endorse their leftwing programs without fraud. Even with fraud, they still need to have courts intervene constantly because leg.'s won't vote for their idiot ideas. Cong. is 0-40 for their votes on Iraq since Jsn.

But cons. have to get fired up about voter ID and see that ringers and the dead and the never living don't get to elect another pres.

To Sammy
Okay, I'll take a look. Thanks.

How do we fight?
What do we do to legitimize our elections? If judges throw out legit concerns and invent votes out of thin air (which was the case in FLA till the SCOTUS stepped in) what can we do? Shame these people? They have no shame.

To Sammy
I took a look at the linked report. I note that one of the factors quoted for the increase in fertility in the U.S. is 'a growing Hispanic population'. I wonder which has the greater role in driving that Hispanic population growth: legal or illegal immigration?
If illegal, then your point is undone and we need to staunch illegal immigration and significantly increase legal immigration.

Perhaps I'll look into the relative rates of legal and illegal Hispanic immigration and the probable birth rates of each group, tomorrow. For now, it's late here and I need to crash.

Good night all, and God bless. It's snowing in Sharana!

To Sammy
I took a look at the linked report. I note that one of the factors quoted for the increase in fertility in the U.S. is 'a growing Hispanic population'. I wonder which has the greater role in driving that Hispanic population growth: legal or illegal immigration?
If illegal, then your point is undone since the very 'tide of third world immigration' is what is sustaining our replacement birth-rate. If illegal immigration itself is harmful, yet we need 'a growing Hispanic population' to keep up our numbers, then we need to staunch illegal immigration and significantly increase legal immigration.

Perhaps I'll look into the relative rates of legal and illegal Hispanic immigration and the probable birth rates of each group, tomorrow. For now, it's late here and I need to crash.

Good night all, and God bless. It's snowing in Sharana!

Oops
Sorry for the double-post. The second one is slightly modified and makes fuller sense, anyway.

Rep. prob. aren't angels.
but to the person who wrote about black voter suppression in FL in 2000, let me remind everyone that the creators and enforcers of poll taxes and literacy tests for blacks' voting were DEMOCRATS.

In 2004, there were all kinds of allegations of voter intimidation in OH in the cities. On the face of it (prima facie), no city in OH is Rep. They are all run by Dem. machines.

So, what Rep. precinct somehow surviving in Cinncinati or Columbus could ever plunk itself into a black neighborhood and disrupt voting?

If there were long lines and voting machine probs. in OH, they were DEMOCRATIC problems. And for news org.'s that reported the "allegations" that were never pursued to court(s), what Rep. election people did they think they would ever see in a minority district that had some kind of election power to interfere with voting? There would be a riot.

FL in 2000 has made the Dems. angry for years because even though they only recounted 4 Dem. counties led by Dem. election commissions with Dem. supervisors using a Dem.-designed ballot and re-tallied by Dem. hacks who got paid by the local Dems. for election work still couldn't produce a vote that elected Gore. Had they recounted 4 counties in the panhandle, the vote for Bush would've been much higher.

And I will remind everyone here, that in 2000, at 8 pm EST, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, and Peter Jennings all parroted the closing of the polls in FL, BUT THE PANHANDLE WAS NOT CLOSED FOR ANOTHER HOUR. Was that a lib. media attempt to suppress the cons. areas' vote? It was Britt Hume and Tony Snow on Fox that correcte the other stations' error.

Fertility - not raw population growth
Tallil2long wrote:
"I took a look at the linked report. I note that one of the factors quoted for the increase in fertility in the U.S. is 'a growing Hispanic population'. I wonder which has the greater role in driving that Hispanic population growth: legal or illegal immigration?"

You've misread the statistic. The issue was not population growth, but Fertility.

Frankly, you don't need ANY of the Illegal Immigrants to grow the Hispanic population of the US. Between legalized immigration and strong Catholic family values, the Hispanic population will continue to rise. The tradition of emphasis on "Mi Familia" is the single greatest gift the Hispanic community of the United States is going to give to our futures.

The ideas of "I'm entitled to it," and "La Raza," in contrast, are the most poisonous sort of toxin being fed to the United States by some Illegal Immigration participants and advocates.

Caucasians Vs. Non-Caucasian Beliefs
Most caucasians link the value of life to a specific economic standard of living, most non-caucasian values do not link the value of life to a specific economic standard of living. As a result, there a fewer caucasian babies being born and non-caucasian families average 3-4 children. It is projected that in another 15-20 years, caucasians will no longer be a majority but a plurarity. Given the history of this country, this may not be a bad thing. Whether legal or illegal, once the child is born here he or she is an american - that is the most stupid law we have on our books. No other country in the world grants those rights to non-citizens but we do. As long as we do so,immigration laws will be compromised as policy makers figure out how to make laws that punish parents who are not citizens but have children who are citizens.

Voter fraud...
...or the next great hope for Democrats. As a moderate Republican I can understand how President Bush infuriates the liberal democrats. I am upset that the Bush administration spent so much money and am really upset at his amnesty agenda.

I just cannot figure out why the democratic voters hate America. This entire voter fraud issue is being used as a race issue to further divide the country.

Look, if you're not here legally, or you don't have legal documents to prove who you are, then you should not be able to vote, drive or get on an airplane.

Whats so difficult to understand about that?

Some way must be found;
A way must be found to prevent posthumous voting and people stuffing ballot boxes by trying to punch so many ballots at once they end up with "hanging chads & dimples.

We need a far more serious penalty for tampering with our election process in any way.

Like the people who slash bus tires to prevent the elderly from voting or anyone casting a bogus ballot should be stripped of all civil rights for life.

JEANNE-MARIE

.....Since France sent us the Statue of Liberty ...I recommend that we send all our illegal immigrants to France .....COLOSUS

hdhouse
I live in Indiana and we need this law to keep the dead, and the moved out of state from voting. It has been going on here for only God knows how long. And dead people voting is just like your post, as well as others here at TH,
M T
Like the man said, you need a driver's license or ID of some kind to do the things we all do in life, why should the right we hold most fundamental, be any different? It should not!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just won’t matter!
http://fred08.com/
http://vets4fred.net/
NO MORE HOLDING OUR NOSE AND PULLING THAT LEVER!!
VOTE FOR A REAL REPUBLICAN!! NO MORE RINO’s!!!

marjay writes:
Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are not taking jobs away from residents. The economic truth is that the more people there are, the greater production there is.

Two things here, first, there are just so many jobs to go around and second, can they stay with you and you support them until they get a job or decide to go home? We do have “legal” immigration and that is the way they should come in!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just won’t matter!
http://fred08.com/
http://vets4fred.net/
NO MORE HOLDING OUR NOSE AND PULLING THAT LEVER!!
VOTE FOR A REAL REPUBLICAN!! NO MORE RINO’s!!!

voter ID in Indiana
About 2 years ago, post cards were sent out to registered voters so we could correct any errors. The Dems objected to that, too. I don't see anything wrong with having a government issued ID with you when you vote. It seems reasonable to me. Everyone has at least 2 years in which to get such ID or 4 years if you vote only in presidential elections. The BMV will issue a free photo ID.

When I was a kid in TX, there was a $2 poll tax in my town. That was a real deterrent to being able to vote. If I recall correctly, my mom could get someone to clean the house for $2. That was the only time we earned enough to consider having anyone else in to clean.

If a political party really wants to facilitate voting, let them provide transportation and get enough workers so that the polls can open on time.

Let each vote count. The Constitution of the United States was amended so that could happen. One person 18 and over = one vote.

Help Me Out
This guy is so mindful of his civic duty that he wants to vote but is also a person who lives his life without any form of identification. Thats ludicrous. People who dont have identification in this society should be rejected at the polls as being too mentally defective to vote.

SCOTUS Must Vote for ID
Without upholding a picture-voter ID the SCOTUS will end all hope of any true elections. My question to anyone in any party is why would you not want this, is winning the election more important then destroying our nations' foundation by having people voting when they should not?

Absentee voting DOES have use
For citizens who ARE NOT PRESENT in the country, and want to vote, this is an option.

FYI, Canada does have it (at least since 1997), where an expat Canadian (including in US) can go to the Consulate and vote on "their" MP.

TALLYING THE VOTES
Dead people don't vote. However, dead people have probably been voting ever since there were ballot boxes.

Fake people don't vote. However, fake people, people with someone else's identity, have probably been voting ever since there were ballot boxes.

There are most likely more people voting now than ever before because of the ease with which an identity can be stolen. Note cases in Wisconsin described in the column. And that's just Wisconsin. How about the other states?

There has to be a way of verifying your identity. It should not be a problem if you have proper identification. I'll be pleased to present mine.

There should be a way of providing state IDs for people not capable of running off to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles to obtain one. And that way should be put into place before next November.

It could be paid for out of the kazillions of money being thrown around by presidential campaigners.

For all the sore loser
whiney libs, I said it before and I'll say it again - The 2000 election was particularly historic (and enjoyable). It was the first time in history that a party lost an election not just once, but 5 times! I guess this is what we'll expect from them whenever they lose. In 2004, they cited fraud in Ohio even though they had 10,000 lawyers watching for said fraud. However, in the 2006 Congressional elections, when they happened to win, there was no peep from them. I guess everything worked just right that time, right? I'd like to note that Republicans didn't make an issue out of that, did they? Class - liberals lack it.

keikosmom
You said:

""Let each vote count. The Constitution of the United States was amended so that could happen. One person 18 and over = one vote.""

Now probably we know what you meant. One person, one vote. But too many people screw words around.

Do you mean, one person who is 18 or over, a citizen of the U.S.A. and in normal control of his faculties may vote once per election on the same candidates and do so either by absentee vote or by voting in his assigned precinct at the time and place specified to the public.

Because that is a whole mouthful more that makes a genuine election and not a rigged and faithless process.


wrong address? is this person voting?
I have been getting a lot of wrong address mail lately. I get that normally, but it is more than usual.

Not only that, it comes from leftist organisations, like "CHIP." So since I am on the border between two states, I was very concerned that someone else might use my address to register in my state.

Is that way off? I would like the right to make sure that my address does not have a lot of unknown, mail-in ballots coming from it. Is that too much to ask?

It may be class
but these idiots who run the GOP have lost critical votes because of their failure to fight
for the rightful candidate, instead they ceded
to Mary Landrieu; Loretta Sanchez; to mention just two. Look at the other questionable elections..Wis., Maryland etc..and the Republicans rolled over on their backs like submissive dogs and piddled all overthemselves when the Democrats barked instead of standing up
and going for the throat like alpha dogs would.

Fuming in San Diego...
I arrived at my polling place a few years ago, with my driver's license in hand, EXPECTING to show proof of ID prior to signing the book and receiving my ballot, and was told by the volunteer at the table, "Oh no! -- Put that away! We're not allowed to ask for identification!" I was absolutely STUNNED! I responded, "So, ANYONE can come through here, sign on any blank line in the book, and receive a ballot using that person's name?" She "assured" me that, if anyone was CAUGHT doing so, they would be prosecuted; unfortunately, there would be NO WAY to prosecute the offender, because the "problem" wouldn't be noticed until a registered voter showed up and found that someone else had already signed next to his/her name! By that time, the "fraud" would be LONG GONE! The volunteers told me, "We don't make the laws! Write to your congressmen." I DID so -- but, years later, nothing has changed... and with our proximity to Mexico, I'm sure that our lax policy is being fully taken advantage of by the many illegals who are being organized and encouraged to vote by groups sympathetic to their cause, resulting in votes for candidates who will further the "rights" of, and entitlements for, illegals in this country.
If anyone still thinks that unchecked illegal immigration is not going to drastically alter the fabric of this nation, take a drive through the heart of Los Angeles -- you'll swear you are driving through a barrio in Tijuana!

A STANDING OVATION!!!
... to ex-Wyomingite for post of 1/3 at 11:33 a.m. -- EXCELLENT POST!

To mlund
"You've misread the statistic. The issue was not population growth, but Fertility."

No, reread the report. The reason for the higher fertility rate overall (which only reaches replacement rate on average) is the growth of the Hispanic population. In other words, as the fertility rate declines among other groups, the ever-increasing Hispanic population with its higher fertility rate, makes up the difference and keeps the overall birth rate at replacement levels. If the Hispanic population stopped growing today, the fertility rate of the existing group would not be large enough to keep up. This is particularly true since second and third generation immigrants tend to change their habits and start having fewer children.

...one more thing...
I also happen to be an emergency room nurse, and personally witness the STEADY influx of uninsured illegals who show up REPEATEDLY at our hospitals to give birth -- all at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers. By law, we CANNOT turn them away, so all care rendered is FREE to THEM, and they can then tap into the public welfare system, to help them provide for their newborn "American citizens." These people make NO attempt at assimilation to our culture or language -- WE are required by law to provide translators for them during their stay at the hospital. Their cultural tendency is to have multiple children per family, and those numbers WILL change the environment in this country -- if not during our generation, then surely in the next. If you are concerned about the state of the nation we will be leaving to our children and grandchildren, the time to get involved and vocal is NOW, before it is too late.

Jeanne-Marie says:
"Just remember Our Statue of Liberty and what she stands for. "


I am well aware of what the Statue of Liberty stands for. It honors the system of institutions created by the founders of the United States, and encourages other countries to achieve freedom and prosperity by creating similar institutions.


The Statue of Liberty has NOTHING to do with immigration, other than that the open-borders lobby has attempted to hijack it for their own political agenda.

Marjay
"We need the immigrants, but for national security reasons they should only be allowed to enter the country according to the rule of law. Work visas should be issued liberally, under the law, in order to sustain our growth-based economy."


The reason we have had millions of unskilled illegal aliens enter the country and take jobs without causing a wage catastrophe for America's working class is that we have a bubble economy.

That is our, as you call it "growth" economy. It is built on an ever spiraling mountain of debt and consumption.

It cannot be sustained.

We had the tech bubble. Millions of fictitious jobs were created in the tech business to meet demand projections for tech products that would have implied that every mom and pop small tech outfit was going to grow to the size of Microsoft.

Well, the bubble burst, and all those ficticious jobs went away. At least the tech workers had some skills of value in a modern economy, though.


So then the Fed saw to it that the house of cards didn't collapse by lowering interest rates to near zero and creating a massive housing bubble based on millions of mortgages being created for people to buy homes they couldn't afford. Much of the illegal immigration wave has been to fill construction and related jobs associated with the housing bubble, which is a pathological form of economic "growth".

Well, now the game is about over and the economy has begun its spiral to oblivion.

But those millions of surplus illegal aliens workers we now have in our country are of much less general use to a modern economy than the tech workers that had to find new jobs after the phony bubble jobs evaporated did.

(continued)

economic collapse part 2
Fortunately, we don't have to keep the illegals here. Many are returning to their home countries, since there is no longer opportunity in the US. The one and only big mistake we can make is if we provide them with enough taxpayer-provided incentives that they would rather stay in the US unemployed than return home.

It is absolutely insane for the taxpayers of the United States to be spending tens of billions of dollars to subsidize people who came here without legal authorization.

You say we should have more work visas. I would say if there really is enough work and it does not simply glut the job market and depress wages, then I am supportive of that too.

But that is going to be such a totally moot point within a couple of years, as the economic collapse that has begun as the "subprime mortgage problem" but is actually a much deeper economic cancer that is eating away at the US economy (and to some degree that of the rest of the developed world as well), and is going to lead to a severe economic depression in short order, unfolds.

Within a couple years the notion of granting legal status to illegal aliens will be an utter absurdity, and even radical leftists and neocons will no longer be attempting to push through such policies.

Instead, our nation will be in the midst of a political battle as to whether the freedoms that we have enjoyed since the founding of our nation are all stripped away under "emergency decrees" created in response to our economic apocalypse

No Unqualified Voters!!!!
To vote is a priviledge, not a right. It should not be the equivalent of falling off of a turnip truck. Instead, to vote you should be identified so you can't vote multiple times, or, like in California, be an illegal alien and be a voter.

I'm just surprised that an absentee ballot doesn't really have to be verified. Talk about voter fraud waiting to happen!

Voter fraud in Washington State
We have Christine Gregoire as governor due to the fact that 1800 ballots somehow got lost until she was done with the recount. First count, Dino Rossi won by something like 386 votes; after the recount (which my husband and I were official observers for)he was still ahead by 242; one more count found her the fraudulent "winner" by 42 or so, and she said, "OK, we can stop counting."

Now, we all vote by mail. No more Republican anything in this left coast state.So much easier that way. Our only hope is for voter identification. Of course, who identifies the mailed-in ballots?

Look up Alaska's Voting Rules
Available on our state website alaska.state.gov and you will see that it is not impossible to require ID for every registered voter and to also allow voter registration by mail or on-line. Nothing is validated until all paperwork is completed.

A couple of years ago, someone tried to claim voter registration fraud when Tony Knowles (former 2-term disaster, I mean democrat, governor) lost the senate election to incumbant (and not particularly beloved) Lisa Murkowski, but the claim was dropped when the voter registration and voter ID requirements were explained. It wasn't even worth pursuing because -- well, voter fraud is hard in this state. My "personal" poll worker (she was a teacher of mine in another century) even asks me for ID (truth be told, she can't remember my married name) because that's the rule.

We also use physical mark scanning technology (that's not a technical name, I don't know the tech name). We use a paper ballot, fill in the oval and scan it (voters do this ourselves) into a reader which retains the ballot. If there's a recount required (as there was with Tony and Lisa), the physical ballots are counted by hand and compared to the reader counts. In that case, the votes were found to be exactly the same. I admit to distrusting touch-screen voting as there is no physical ballot to authenicate that your vote was counted as you gave it. I think the system we have is extremely simple and effective. We used to have the punch-card type ballots and we never had any problems with those either.

Voting
Illegals are voting. They have voted before and there will be more of them this time. Going to be a big difference in who comes out on top in different states.

Voting
Half of Mexicos people are now in the United States. The candidates say they will build the fence and secure the borders. If they started in earnest, today it would take ten years before enough was done to prevent illegals from coming across the border. With the rate they are coming across the border and the rate they have babies, there will be no America. When amnesty passes we will be standing in line for low paying jobs along with the illegals who thru amnesty will have every right we have plus still get free med, welfare, etc. Why do you think the government is allowing this? Because they want the North American Union and one World Order.
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