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Monday, November 26, 2007
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gun Rights and Presidential Politics
by Ken Blackwell
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The debate over individual gun rights just has become a front line issue in the 2008 presidential campaign. The United States Supreme Court decision to hear arguments on District of Columbia v. Heller, the D.C. gun ban case, guarantees it.

In the District of Columbia, it is a crime to have a handgun. It also is a crime to have shotguns or rifles unless they are unloaded and disabled. Ordinary people cannot have a gun, even in their own homes.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia struck down the law as unconstitutional. The court said the Second Amendment does not allow a law like it because it keeps Americans living in D.C. from exercising their Second Amendment rights.

Now the Supreme Court will weigh in on whether or not the framers of the Constitution actually bestowed a right to government over the people in the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

The answer seems obvious.

The Bill of Rights details individual rights that government cannot take away. When the framers referred to the people, they meant the individual, not the government. Most Americans get it. Even liberal legal scholars like Alan Dershowitz and Laurence Tribe get it when it comes to the individual rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment. They believe the clear wording of the document favors the individual’s gun rights.

Though it seems to escape the mayor of D.C., Adrian Fenty, who thinks Constitutional rights can be legislated away. “It’s the will of the people of the District of Columbia that has to be respected,” Mr. Fenty recently said at a news conference. “We should have the right to make our own decisions.”

With nearly 100 million American gun owners and a fluid nominating process in both primaries, Second Amendment voters matter. In fact, their votes could be the deciding factor in the volatile Iowa and New Hampshire contests propelling the winner into the pivotal South Carolina and Florida primaries.

Second Amendment voters are strict constitutionalists and will be closely watching how the presidential candidates address the gun issue.

The president is sworn to uphold “the right of the people to keep and bear arms.” The duty to protect the Constitution and uphold the law requires a firm, clear belief one way or the other on the rights of Americans to buy and own a gun.

Mitt Romney, Fred Thompson, John McCain, and Mike Huckabee are staunch Second Amendment advocates and all oppose most restrictions on gun rights including D.C.’s. Rudy Giuliani favors some restrictions but opposes the D.C. gun ban. He thinks the Supreme Court should strike it down permanently.

Now let’s hear what Hillary Clinton, Barrack Obama, and John Edwards have to say. What do they believe the framers meant by the “people”? The answers will speak volumes about their views on a wide range of issues.

Over the past few years, a heated national debate has raged over what the Constitution says about presidential power, war, the environment, education, health care, the reach of federal power, affirmative action, abortion, and immigration.

The American people have the right to know how a presidential candidate would interpret the Constitution’s most basic tenet — the rights of individuals over government.

The former president of the National Riffle Association, Sandy Froman, recently explained the importance of the case and how it could impact Americans nationwide. The first Jewish-American to hold that office in the 136-year history of the NRA, and a respected colleague, Ms. Froman has a very personal reason for her unwavering advocacy of individual gun rights. Nearly 25 years ago, she was the victim of a home invasion. In a recent column, Ms. Froman explained, “I learned first hand that the right of self-defense means nothing unless you also have the means of self-defense.”

Anti-Second Amendment advocates also understand the importance of the case. They hope the court guts the gun rights allowed in the Bill of Rights.

“We’re nervous,” president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Paul Helmke, told the Washington Post. “Anytime you go to the Supreme Court, you could end up with all sorts of gun laws being called into question.”

Presidential candidates whose views on the Second Amendment have been questioned should step up and detail their position on this issue. Mrs. Clinton, and Messrs. Obama and Edwards should explain their views. Mr. Giuliani should explain more fully why he opposes the D.C. gun ban but supports other restrictions on Second Amendment rights.

The American people expect leadership. Part of being a leader is answering the tough questions openly and forthrightly. On this issue, the court will do the heavy lifting. The candidates’ views, however, will certainly leave a mark.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Excellent, and covers many bases
First of all, Giuliani's no friend of the Second Amendment, make no mistake about it. His performance as Mayor, which he touts until you examine his record closely, is proof positive of that, regardless of how he tries to spin it.

Secondly, Blackwell's right that gun owners who vote their guns determine elections. Clinton himself credited Gore's defeat to gun owners. Why do you think we saw Kerry and Edwards looking so foolish in brand-new cammies with borrowed shotguns trying to fool people into believing they actually supported gun rights?

If the GOP wants to win next year's election, they'd better wake up and smell the roses when deciding who to nominate, or they can just get used to being a minority party until they do.

Many Dems in Congress from the South are a lot better on the gun issue than some of the GOP Presidential candidates.

The GOP better not try to take us for granted.

i'm the NRA and i vote
As an NRA member, I will not vote for any presidential candidate who does not call for the Supreme Court to strike down the DC gun ban. That gun ban is the worst gun law in the country.

The Constitution means what it says.


The Constitution is Blushing
The Constituion may feel a bit shy these days considering it is probably not used to all the attention. I think it has been mentioned more times this year in the political arena than the last 30 all combined. This is in stark contrast to many previous elections where, by some unknown cosmic circumstance, a reporter mentioned how a particular political position had to do with one of those amendment thingies.

You could almost call it Patriotic if you discounted the setting that has pushed it to the forefront. We have witnessed large reductions in civil liberties, undeclared and hugely costing wars(I say wars not war, because less we forget we are not just enganged in Iraq) and a host of legislation and Executive Directives that is relegating the grand old document to second rate status.

Americans though are waking up in large part to the campaign of Ron Paul. He has made the defending of the Consitution his trade mark. He repeatedly mentions it in his speeches and articles. If you want a candidate that will defend the Constitution to his last dying breath he is your man.

I guess we can thank him for getting many Americans to feel, well, American again.

The Dems
Don't look for a position to come out of any of the Democrat candidates. They know advocating gun control is a big negative for a substantial portion of the country. Through the primaries they hope to avoid any mention of the subject. If they are pinned down one way or the other they risk enflaming someone's base. Look for whoever the eventual nominee is to suddenly find that they in fact don't believe that everyone's guns should be taken away.

What would be really interesting would be a scenario that has SCOTUS ruling against an individual right and the Democrat nominee having to run against that ruling. While the Leftnuts support gun confiscation the majority of Americans would crush a politician that said there was no right to the tools of self defense. The powers that be in the Democrat party know that.

Re:
Romney and McCain are no more friendly to second amendment rights than Giuliani or the Democratic candidates. If you look at their records, you'll find that in some cases they are probably worse. Just because they claim to be republicans doesn't mean that they actually support conservative values except at election time.

Ron Paul
has a perfect record of defending the rights of gun owners. Why no mention of him, Mr. Blackwell?

JACOBIN/NEOCON STRATEGY FOR THA WIN???
JACOBIN/NEOCONS like Blackwell are dancing to the beat of the Jacobin/Neocon drummers!

The Neocon Candidate is Rudy Guiliani and the strategy is to break up the vote so Rudy gets a majority. They have pushed Huckabee to the front of the line since Thompson could not do it. Do what? Get the Evangelical vote. Their plan is to use Huckabee to break up the Evangelical vote because he seems to be attracting those who do not know that he is a Liberal.

As far as Ron Paul goes. Well, this is their biggest nightmare because Ron Paul exposes their maneauvering and Jacobin traitor modus operandi!

It is inevitable that Ron Paul...
is the only candidate to save the Republic, I know this because he has more signs on the corner and more posters (spammers) on the Net.
I bow to the Power of the Paulettes!

Handsome
You post a pessimistic scenario. You could very well be all too accurate. All i know is that this is the first primary i am EAGER to vote in. With luck, the anti-amnesty folks (a mile wide, an inch deep) and the Ron Paul folks (an inch wide and a mile deep) will shake up the dismal trends. Throw the rascals out.

Till DEATH do us part.
WHOEVER tries to take my weapons from me will have to kill me to do it. And, I will take out as many as I can before I die. Is that CLEAR enough. This would start a full fledged civil war.

SAY NO to billary light!
All the candidates had better wake up and realize Americans are more about keeping their rights under the constitution than ever before! How we vote in this next primary will tell us what Americans are really about. We are either freedom loving people or there are just kool aid drinkers who want to be spoon fed and led around like kids in a supermarket. I for one will vote for Hunter and will NEVER vote mittary or rudary. To do so would be like saying I want communist light, and if I wanted to be one in any way shape or form, I would move in with hugo because I hear gas is cheaper there.

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

Ditto to UncleB
Molan Labe.

bluejacket
Thanks for the support..........Molan Labe????

Molan Labe
Who sez townhall aint educational. Molan Labe....Greek for come and get 'em. Thanks bluejacket for the education. Google is a great thing.

Nominate Carefully

There are millions of us who usually vote GOP who WILL NOT vote for Rudy, for a variety of reasons. For me it's the amnesty issue, for others it's life, still others, homosexuality or gun rights. Whatever the issue is, it is a bright line we will not cross. No amount of Hillaryscare, intimidation, name-calling or cajoling will get us to vote for Rudy. He's in the wrong party. He is a liberal. I don't vote for liberals. When he loses, don't blame us, we tried to warn you. Flipping off half your voters is not a winning strategy.

Interesting Quote
We’re nervous,” president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Paul Helmke, told the Washington Post. “Anytime you go to the Supreme Court, you could end up with all sorts of gun laws being called into question"

Could it be that their views and the laws they have sponsored can not pass constitutional muster?

Guns
I hope they don't actually think they can pull this off?? We have had one Civil War I would hate to see another one. The Gov. already has more trouble than it can take care of. Americans should NOT have to fight to keep the rights that Americans have had for many, many, years.
When guns out outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

Support for the 2nd
is my litmus test and ought to be for every American who considers themselves a patriot. Whether or not you want to won a firearm yourself, the constitution makes it a legal option. If you support the constitution, the only principled opposition is to amend the constitution. If you don't support the constitution, you are not a conservative. Secondly, those who wish to confiscate firearms from the general law-abiding public display a rooted contempt and disregard for us. The right to self-defense is at the very base of self worth and the equality of man. Those who would deny one the right to self defense show they consider themselves an elite, above the common man. Any voter who votes for a pol illustrating his true colors this way deserves all the grief that results. The pity is that many good and wise folks suffer too.

UncleB 8:12am
It is also important to remember to whom the words "Molon Labe" are attributed. The Spartan King, Leonidas, supposively gave this answer to the Persian King when ordered to put down his weapons and surrender.

Whether he did or didn't say this is not important. His actions to this demand were.

I hope all Americans realize that the 2nd Amendment is perhaps the most important in the entire Bill of Rights. It protects all the others.

If the USA elects someone who wants the 2nd Amendment revoked, then our actions must be the same as those of the Spartans at the Pass of Thermopylae (i.e., Come and Get Them!).

Political Correctness?
I like Mr. Blackwell's take, which I interpret as "rights come from God---and the Constitution limits the power of government to interfere with the exercise of those rights". That having been said, I fear that he has been overexposed to the interminable din from P.C. Central, such that he now believes it necessary to describe Sandy Froman as a "Jewish-American", complete with hyphen! What's next, Justice Clarence Thomas being described as a "Catholic-American"? (Hint: "Jew" is a perfectly-acceptable appellation---it doesn't need to be gussied-up with hyphens and appended by "American".)

Milita
When the constitution was written, and the subsequent bill of rights, we were not at war.We
had experienced first hand what can happen when a government uses force against it's citizens and wrote the second amendment as a safe guard. The word militia did not refer to a group of citizen soldiers controlled by a government such as the national Guard.
Rather it referred to private citizens taking up arms to protect there homes and property against a government gone amuck and waring against her own citizens.

I reiterate
my previous post on this subject:

I don't care what the Supreme Court decides. The only way anyone will get my gun is to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. This is one issue that inflames my passion even more than abortion on demand. If my government wants to throw me in jail for owning a gun, then so be it! In fact, I think there are many others who feel as I do, and if the Supreme Court wants to push the issue, they may end up with way more than they bargained for.

I am a woman and the only way I feel safe at home alone at night is because there is a loaded gun under my bed, and by god, I'm not afraid to use it!

communism is near
Since the days of FDR, the social-fascist pigs have been attempting to destroy our constitutional republic. Unless there is a civil war against the social-fascist pigs who have no respect for our constitution, by 2025 the USA will be a copy of the USSR and, there will be more civilians murdered by the "Democrat" party than were murdered in the social-fascist nation of Russia (Stalin) (which surpassed Germany (Hitler) in the murder of civilians).

Laughable.
Adrian Fenty says that "the people of the District (of Columbia) have the right to decide for themselves."

The District's anti-self-defense laws were passed by the D.C. City Council and signed by the Mayor (all Democrats) thirty-two years ago (1974)-without any public comment or objections allowed. Since then, D.C.'s violent crime rate has skyrocketed (it is usually the annual-rated Murder Capital of the nation; only New Orleans manages to occasionally de-throne it), prosecutions and convictions for actual offenses are almost non-existent, the Washington and Prince Georges Co. police and sheriff's departments are considered some of the most corrupt and incompetent in the country (even worse than NO, or even Chicago)- and in case no one has noticed, they have a former mayor (Marion Barry) who lost his job due to a jail term on their City Council.

And in all this, the people of D.C. have consistently said in polls that they do not agree with the District's "gun law"- and the local government has consistently said, "tough s**t, peasants."

The local Democratic Party government, that is. Run by the DNC, which views D.C. as the model for how they wish they could run the entire country.

I think this tells you all you need to know about how much the Democrats care about "what the people think".

And what they'd love to do to the rest of us.


cheers

eon

Let's hope
the next person to interview Hillary asks about her views on gun ownership and the second amendment.

We can all chuckle at the spectacle as she trips over her own tongue again.

Oops
Thirty-THREE years ago.

Need coffee- now.

cheers

eon

M Sederoff
GOOD FOR YOU!! Keep your weapon close. At least you will have a fighting chance IF the need arises. I find it very difficult to imagine the SCOTUS would not know the firestorm they would ignite if they ruled such that the gov't could TRY to confiscate our weapons.

Re: Hillary

I've seen her views on all three sides of any issue, so I am still ABV ( Anyone But Clinton)

OOPS
ABV= ABC

Grey Ghost
Those pesky Persians are raising their heads again. Maybe that is what they will say about their nukes WHEN they get them (which aint far away)

Gray Ghost
Aw, you put a pin in my balloon. I was going to give in to my usual childish penchant to show off and translate. Your point is well taken. Right now i would choose a middle ground, and take advange of a couple waterproof containers that happen to be sitting in my garage. No use to duke it out with law enforcement underlings when i might need to take action higher up, later.

M Sederoff
Good for you. You may be interested to know that about 1987, armed civilians passed up law enforcement agencies in killing felons during the commission of a crime. The score was about 2850 to 2500 (memory) and last time i checked, the gap was widening every year, as more and more cops take note of such items as the fate of Compos and Ramos. There are just so many easy ways to avoid a shooting scrape that will always hurt ones career, even if found to be a righteous shooting. An example was the action of the police chief at the Columbia shootings that forbade intervention as victims bled to death.

UncleB
But, that was the whole point, wasn't it, of getting conservative judges on the Supreme Court? So they would interpret laws and the Constitution in a manner pleasing to conservatives? Makes perfect sense.

JD's son
Enjoyed your post. The most common liberal arguments I hear are that the populace no longer need to own guns since we have a military and do no rely on militia. The idea that an armed populace is one of the checks and balances built into our system to keep our OWN government in check is an odd idea to them (trusting as they are of govt I guess).
Another of their concerns is crime of course. I recently asked one if she would be willing to post a sign in front of her house: "I don't believe in guns". If not, why not?
Haven't seen the sign....

Lilly
You're correct. And you would like more liberal judges for exactly the same reason. But your reasons would be pure, and a conservative's just out to screw society. Right?

Bumper Sticker
I love the bumper sticker that says:
"Protected by Smith and Wesson".

Lilly
Don't make it any more complicated than it has to be. I don't go out after folks with my weapons. They are kept at my home. You come in and/or try to take them away I'll kill you or die trying. Straightforward and simple enough for even a liberal to understand.

PEOPLE
Chief Ten Bears said it best, in the movie Josie Whales. There is IRON in your words for all men to see! Well most of you people anyways. I always smile at people like lilly who want us disarmed. Ain’t going to happen lilly, you might have to move in with hugo, danny glover, kevin spacey, and your fellow travelers! Count me in the cold dead fingers deparment!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

Good article and good comments.
__We all will stand together Armed with our God given rights, our Constitutional rights, and the protective Arms provided to every law abiding person. Without those Arms of protection, and the individual behavior that results, you have the left attempting to regulate behavior, has if individual behavior was a right! We have seen the results of this liberal left policy, along with its detriment to this Republics society. With their speculative efforts to protect Americans they have removed the Arms that protect America. In incremental steps they have blinded Americans of their responsibility to this nation, has they have allowed passions of personal behavior to become the guiding light. In turn, personal passions of factions, ideology, have been guiding our various branches of government, has the true majorities voice has been limited. Of coarse the left, and their factions want an unarmed society, has it is a major obstacle in their attempt to destroy this Republic.

Do we need the supreme court....
....to interpret the 2nd amendment for us?

This is truly scary....these are the same guys who interpreted "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." to mean that a copy of the 10 commandments in a court house is illegal and saying a prayer before a high school football game is illegal.

Excellent Article
Except for the statement that McCain is a staunch Second Amendment supporter. He's already severely damaged the First Amendment, and he's tried to damage the Second as well.

Dems. are afraid of gun issues
They've lost huge numbers of races being on the wrong side of gun ownership.

Doc
Good morning!!

It's people like lilly who have motivated me into getting a beautiful Sig .380* for my Christmas present. Isn't THAT romantic??!!

*Maybe I'll get a Glock 17, instead!

Parsing the Language
People on both sides of the aisle like to parse the first phrase in the Second Amendment to try to make it either irrelevant or all powerful.

To me, on the other hand, it has always seemed that what happened at Lexington and Concord is a clear enough example of how the founding fathers felt about the government attempting to disarm the people.

YLG
I mean what could be more romantic than providing for your protection. The .380 is great size for a lady to have for protection. Once you get your carry permit, the .380 will fit in your purse a lot better than the Glock.

Individual "gun" rights
Please read the history in the Parker v. DC majority opinion.

The debate is about "gun" rights, but the 2A is not about guns but the inalienable human right of self-defense. Firearms, then and now, are the best means to secure such a goal, but 2A would be as vital as now after firearms have been obsoleted.

Statists like Clinton or Bloomberg don't like the idea of a population that might curb their authority. Statists have proven without doubt that the state cannot protect individuals on that basis, which is why US law prevents police from being sued for such failure.

The only way for an individual to defend themself is by passive or active means. Carrying and using a firearm is an active means of self-defense not suited for all, but an option that must be allowed by government.

If there were no violent crime, you could say we have outgrown the need for individual self-defense. Manifestly, there is considerable violent crime, the state cannot prevent it and therefore morally has to allow the people to take reasonable measures of their own as the people, not elitists, choose.

Bloomberg and Clinton have millions in personal wealth to hire all the armed security they want, in addition to what taxpayers provide. Their hypocrisy in trying to disarm those not so endowed (who also pay for the armed details that protect these worthies through taxation) is incredible.

Look at the UK if you want to see the results of individual disarmament. Crime "control" is criminal control, and the police cannot do it all.

It is time to stop worrying about the millions of responsible gun owners and dealing harshly with criminals.

another victory...for now
Pa. Governor Rendell just attempted to push through new gun laws in my state...and they failed.

The things he wanted to do were three fold:
First, requiring anyone who has a gun stolen or lost, to report it as such. Fine.

Second: limit handgun buys to one per month. Now to most gun owners including myself this would not be a problem...on the surface. The problem is, once you grant the government the ability to make such restrictions you set a precedent. Why not one a year? Or one a lifetime?

Third: This is the worst; Rendell wanted to allow each municipality to pass their own gun laws. This would almost certainly make a carry permit a useless document. One would have to have a map of all the towns where carrying was legal and make certain to avoid the ones where it is against the law. To the best of my knowledge, such a law has no precedent. I am glad it failed.

But the fight continues. We must be vigilent, if we are to keep one of the most important rights we have as citizens.

94
In August of 94 the Clinton administration, along with the dem congress, passed the most intrusive, far reaching gun control laws ever.

That November, democrats lost control of congress for the first time in 40 years. Coincidence? I hardly think so.

UncleB
That's pretty much what I have determined. I will be taking 'Concealed' class for Valentine's Day....Sigh...I'm soooo lucky to have found this man!!

However, I have PLENTY of purses where a Glock wouldn't be noticed...;-)

Lilly
As usual, your post makes a whole lot of NONsense.
It is a well established fact that the vast majority of activist judges--SCOTUS on down--are liberals. After all, convervatives by the very definition agree with the constitution the way it was written, so all conservative judges have to do is interpret it the way is was meant. It is the liberals, who don't want to go along with the constitution the way it is, but would CHANGE it to suit their own personal "progresive" philosophies, that have to come up with obscure arguments to say that the constitution means something other than what it actually says.

YLG writes:
Maybe I'll get a Glock 17, instead!

Morning m'dear! delete instead and insert TOO! I am firm in my way of thinking that you can never have to many!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

Insidious plot of SCOTUS………
In my opinion this case now to be decided by the SCOTUS is , indeed, insidious.
The Justices chose to write out for themselves the constitutional question they will undertake to answer in Heller. It is as follows:
--------------------------------------------------
“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”
The first listed section bars registration of pistols if not registered before Sept. 24, 1976; the second bars carrying an unlicensed pistol, and the third requires that any gun kept at home must be unloaded and disassembled or bound by a lock, such as one that prevents the trigger from operating.
This can be found at the following link:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/court-agrees-to- rule-on-gun-case/
--------------------------------------------------

Since the SCOTUS has decided to write the question to be resolved as above, then, the SCOTUS has ALREADY stated that the 2nd Amendment is, in fact, an individual right! They (SCOTUS) will be deciding ONLY whether or not the D.C. "Code provisions" (-- i.e. law) violates that "individual right!

This is, IMHO, much more of an insidious approach to the situation. For if the SCOTUS says the D.C. "Code provisions" DO NOT violate the 2nd Amendments (assumed?) guarantees, the door (or more rightly Pandora's Box) will have been opened for all kinds of "Code provisions" everywhere to be written that do not violate same.

This SCOTUS is NOT ruling on the 2nd Amendment per say, it is ruling on what is (or is not) allowed in restricting it.

!!!!!!!READ THE WORDS CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!

TBC :>(

bob
Glad to hear the people of your state are not asleep at the "trigger". You are right about the "slippery slope" of gun purchases per whatever. The libs speak of the slippery slope of intellegence gathering. What works on one slope also works on another.
You are also right about those of lots of money hiring their security while wanting to deny those of modest means any way to protect themselves. Rosie O is another example of that.

Doc
Hmmmmmmm.....

BOTH instead of one or the other......

I LIKE IT!!!

I think my hubby would just fall to his knees in ecstasy if I told him to get both!

YLG
Oh how you ladies love to accesorize (sp?). The Glock for the gym bag and larger purse. And the .380 for the slim evening bag/clutch. Guys just love this variety thing.

YLG
Please remember dear that with the smaller caliber guns, you want to tap center mass three times instead of twice, just to be safe. I keep my Ruger 9 with a 16 round mag under my pillow in case it is not Santa coming around in the house in the wee hours of the night! Also, lighting is important in that you want them silhouetted and not your self! Be safe!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

UncleB
I'm glad that SOMEBODY appreciates my attempt at accessorizing my bag to my gun of choice. BTW, I wouldn't be caught dead with a gym bag. I have a backpack for that sort of thing! ;-)

Never Forget the Arcadians....

They lived peacefully in a land called Arcadia (now Nova Scotia, from "New Scotland:, in the tradition of "New Hampshire", "New Jersey", "New Brunswick", etc...).

The Acadians were peaceful French farmers who were viewed as a threat by the English crown. So they built forts and the Arcadians simply moved 3 miles away from the forts (3 miles being the range of cannon back then).

The British demanded they turn in thier guns and most of the Acadians peacefully did. Then the British rounded them up and deported them to the swamps of Louisania where they became the 'Cagins.

Now some didn't: some kept their guns and went into the woods and settled what is now Northern Maine (and a good chunk of the Canadian province of New Brunswick although didn't officially live there).

And then during the American Revolution there were the "Committees of Public Safety" that confiscated the guns (and later the property) of those felt not loyal enough to the Revolution.

All of this happened in the lifetimes of those who wrote the 2nd Amendment. Somehow, I think this was what they were worrying about...

Doc
Thanks for the advice, but I would like to add that I would rather do two rounds center mass, and one to the head while the perp writhes at my feet.

Why stop at the 2nd Amemdment?
If there is no more need for guns, why stop at the 2nd amendment? "Everyone" knows that religion is outdated and free speech is too dangerous because it might offend. While we are at it, we could save money and shut down military bases by housing troops in private homes. I'm sure a certain political party would drool at the chance to seize documents and individuals after removing the 4th amendment. That same political party has done its best to eliminate the 9th and 10th ones.....

Something to think about.

The Second Protects The Other Nine
Would the "Bill of Rights" still be in existence if there were no 2ND Amendment?

Pirate/YLG
Pirate...Great example.
YLG...Guess it shows I aint been to the gym since the 80's when gym "bags" were in vogue. Sorry for the faux pas. Hmmm... I wonder where my gym bag is. I think I left my sweaty gym clothes in it....EEEEEWWWWWWW

WOW!!!
I'd like you to know that as a non-packing liberal, I agree with your pursuit to retain the rights afforded by the second amendment (honest). Buy as many weapons as you'd like (truthfully).

Defend yourself to the hilt, hopefully it will actually work for you if the need ever arises.
I do respect your right to choose to "bear arms", just stay out of my face and I will do the same.

Naturally, I would be happy to sit over a cup of java and talk about some of the reasons that led to people thinking that gun control could keep a few folks from being needlessly blown away (not defending gun control, just interested in the factors that led to the "buzz").

But seriously, do you think all the testosterone touting (female as well) is really necessary? "Cold dead finger" prying, getting as many as you can before they get you?

That would be like me wondering (through accusation) if you have more teeth than fingers, or a waist size smaller than your IQ (or vice versa). But hey...I'm not saying that...honest!

I love you guys, just disagree with your style. And after reading the posts, want you on my side.

By the way, being from Ohio, I would like to say, seriously, that I am so happy that Ken Blackwell is harmlessly spewing conservative jibberish for the right to read.

He was an amazing train wreck running for Governor here, even in a predominantly conservative state. You go Ken...away!

Hmmm
Sounds like to me that they are trying to scrap our Constitution one piece at a time. When you try to take away American's right to self defense when terrorists and hostile foreign powers are trying to invade us, you're walking on the fighting side of me. See who put this bill up there to debate, and you'll find our domestic enemies. Sounds like a bloodless coup attempt to me.

Its a FREAKING HOBBY!
Anyone have a problem getting a gun?

Go to Walmart, no background or waiting period & buy a 10 gauge, 20" pump action shotgun & "00" dear shot, today! It would harm many humans @ 50 yard range, messy, 15 yrds, kill many. Believe me, a shotgun is plenty to protect your home.


>2nd Amend voters are strict constitutionalists
>& will be closely watching how the presidential
>candidates address the gun issue.

BULL! NRA, gun hobbyist, enthusiast, hunters are not super American patriots. They're watching out for their HOBBY. GOP just panders for votes. THATS ALL.

They're selfish individuals protecting their hobby, regardless how ridiculous their position may be on individual restrictions. "Guns don't kill, people kill". Whatever, guns do kill.

ITS A HOBBY. No one is making money w/ their guns; wild west days are over. If Billy Bob wants 10 AK47's, by-golly Billy-Bob should have them, right?

Virginia TECH, mentally ill person got guns legally & several high capacity clips from the web. (50 bullets ready to go). I'm sorry but if you want a deadly weapon, health records get checked. Get a shot gun while you wait for your gun.

Crazy PEOPLE should NOT have GUNS! I know, call me crazy.


>The American people have the right to know how
>a presidential candidate would interpret the
>Constitution’s most basic tenet

None of the crooks, I mean politicians are going to do anything FOR or AGAINST Guns.

MITT ROMNEY, the quintessential politician, not in a good way, is a LIFE TIME NRA member. He joined last this year, JOKE. He said he’s a hunter. He never had a hunting licence. Turns out he's a "Varmint Hunter". What ever. ITS JUST PANDERING, NOTHING ELSE.

Stop the 2nd amend, bill of rights bull. If you cared you'd rage against Bush ignoring the law, constitution, bal of pwr, checks & bal & geneva convention.

For the record - A better defense
I prefer cold hard steel, sharpened along one edge for my defense - 48" of it. My sword collection is not just for show. For the lady, I find the aluminum Louisville Slugger an excellent choice. It never needs loading.

My shotguns and rifle stay safely locked away and would take too long to retrieve to use as defense.

Of course, a would be invader would have to get through my first line of defense - 2 Labs and a tough as nails Terrior mutt. My old black lab doesn't take kindly to strangers.

Paranoia is a terrible thing
> Zena P writes: Monday, Nov 11:18 AM

>Hmmm
>Sounds like to me that they are trying to scrap
>our Constitution one piece at a time. When you
>try to take away American's right to self
>defense when terrorists and hostile foreign
>powers are trying to invade us, you're walking
>on the fighting side of me. See who put this
>bill up there to debate, and you'll find our
>domestic enemies. Sounds like a bloodless coup
>attempt to me.

Wow paranoia is a terrible mental illness. I hope therapy and medication can help you. I hope you are kidding. There are like 12 million guns imported and bought every year. We are sick with guns.

I do agree Bush has tried to dismantle the Constitution with his imperial Presidency. He's ignored international and domestic law, has corrupted the white house with pure politics and run rough shot over the other branches of gov in some kind of ideological orgy.

Talk about the "Rights of the American People". That right will be to vote the GOP / Neo-Cons out of office, punish them and reject their Un-AMERICAN ONE PARTY RULE DOMINATION. Sorry Karl Rove you lost, but its good for the American Democracy.

VOTE DEM IN '08 AND STOP THE MADNESS

SEND A MESSAGE, GET BACK TO REAL TRADITIONAL CONSERVATISM AND BI-PARTISAN COOPERATION THAT LISTENS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NOT IGNORES THEM AND LIES TO THEM. Clinton is criticised for taking polls. Well since 75% people disapprove of Bush, may be listening to the people is a good idea.

Deornwulf
As a fellow sword collector who has trained to use them, I must still note that the man who brings a sword to a gun fight had better be really fast on his feet. The same goes for the Louisville slugger.

As for your dogs: You're as likely to get them killed asking them to defend you as you are to be protected. The home invaders in my area tend to carry handguns and have shown a willingness to use them.

Individual or Militia Rights?
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Can someone tell me what the founders meant by "militia" and "well regulated". Who regulates? What can they regulate?

Also, isn't the right to bear arms already regulated? You cannot own military weapons such as RPG's, Howitzers, buy an F15 aircraft, Abrams tank or put SAM's in your backyard. Why isn't this an infrigment on your 2A rights?

It seems to me the founders were concerned with public defense rather than individual protetction. If this is so, then since each state already has a National Guard, why is the Second Admendment relevant or neccessary today?

I ask becasue I honestly do not know and I am really curious on how you distinguish...



jetpilot
If Billy Bob wants 10 AK47's, by-golly Billy-Bob should have them, right?


Same old tired lib argument. The framers had no way of knowing about modern firearms and it would make no difference to them anyway! Plain fact is they wanted us to have a way to defend our GOD GIVEN rights acknowledged in the constitution! To protect us from people just like king george or peso george! Here is an ideal, if you don’t want one don’t buy one! But please do not interfere with my GOD GIVEN right to buy 1 or 10 OR 50!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!



stedes writes:
the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Shall NOT be infringed, says it all!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

jetpilot
"Wow paranoia is a terrible mental illness."

Then

"He's ignored international and domestic law, has corrupted the white house with pure politics and run rough shot over the other branches of gov in some kind of ideological orgy."

You are so RIGHT. I hope you are seeking treatment.

jetpilot writes:
reject their Un-AMERICAN ONE PARTY RULE DOMINATION

we feel the same about the dims, so whats your point? Also, just because someone is paranoid, does not mean people are not out to get them!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

Max Power
We purchased a Winchester about two months ago. I went to the range with my hubby to try it out. After trying it at the shoulder, I tried it at the hip, and felt as if it had been made for me.

for jetpilot
jetpilot writes: "VOTE DEM IN '08 AND STOP THE MADNESS"

Which Democrat other than Hillary do you want us to vote for?

Because we're not voting for HER.

Get it? We don't have a parliamentary system in America. We're not "voting Dem" or "voting GOP." We vote for specific candidates.

And we're not voting for HER.

for stedes
stedes asks: "Can someone tell me what the founders meant by "militia" and "well regulated". Who regulates? What can they regulate?"

That's what the Supreme Court is going to rule on--the intent of the Framers when they wrote that thing.

Ask a whole bunch of people about exactly what the 2nd Amendment says and you are liable to get a whole bunch of different, conflicting opinions.

But in the end, the opinion of the Supremes is the one that counts.

BlueBuckeye73
As a former anti-gun person, I would love to sit down with you for a cup of joe (just not Starbucks; they have lousy coffee) and discuss this thread. I was so anti-guns, my boyfriend-now-hubby almost left me because he couldn't have a conversation without me screaming at him over it. After his aunt was shot by an intruder, and she unable to defend herself because she didn't like guns in the house, I started to change my mind.

As for the testosterone bit, I don't particularly have an excessive amount of it, but compared to some libs on this site, I might come off as having more that their share.

stedes
Too many Americans to not understand the Bill of Rights. They do not give us the rights they outline; they merely acknowledge certain rights afforded to Americans which cannot be infringed upon the the government. In other words, if the Bill of Rights did not exist, the rights they outline still would be valid.

I encourage you to read some of the excellent books that have been written about the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. You will find quotes from many of the Constitutions framers which indicate that they will understood the necessity for an armed populace to prevent overreaching by governments.

Let me give you something ponder. In Switzerland, all able-bodied men must have a firearm (I believe the government will even provide one). They are also required to learn to use those firearms. There is no standing army (to my knowledge). But guess which nation Hitler was afraid to invade? Guess which nation consistently has some of the lowest crime rates? And most violent crimes in Switzerland are committed by foreign nationals. Now, do you feel safer in America or Switzerland?

2nd amendment, true or false
It has always been a wonder to me why Americans send their young people off to some God forsaken country to fight and sometimes die to make that country like ours, while at the same time the same Americans sit on their asses here at home and watch our own government strip away our liberties, crap on our Constitution, and take our money away from us through oppressive taxation.
The NRA, of which I am a very long time member, boast somewhere between 3 to 4 million members. Anyone want to make a guess as how many of we members would actually stand on the front porch with our trusty Colt and that ol Remington shotgun and tell the UN troops to come on up if ya dare and take my guns from "my cold dead fingers", and after the soldiers do exactly that they will proceed to the next place.
I fear that this battle will be fought in the courts with rhetoric and of course at our expense.
Now for myself I will stand on my porch with my trusty ol Colt and my ol Remington shotgun and fight out and out gun confiscation.

YLG

You, anti gun. I do not believe that a woman with your brand of justice written all over her could ever, no I mean, now be an anti justice person. A gun equates you and me, therefor it equals justice.

A lot of women carry peashooters in their purse. Thank heavens they do. I may need them.

The big problem is that only a few know how and when to use their armament, and worse still can't find it when they need it. But the simple truth is people, crooks, leave you alone more often if they think or believe you are armed.


If Hillary is elected
The First, Second and Fourth Amendments will be repealed

Or at the very least a 90 day waiting period on the publishing of any anti-Clinton article.

Taking your gun, Tiger..

I watched as Nicaraguan rebels ran through yards, including mine, and using all kinds of guns with many different calibers laid ambushes for the well armed federal or national troops and won the war.

The difference is in tactics and guts. Enough armed people can take down a superior army, at least some times. So keep your Winchester oiled and plenty of ammo. Ammo is what gives out before you do.



Spinners and twisters
Y'all can spin, twist, turn, interpret and/or condem all you want. If ANYONE comes to my home and tries to remove my weapons as I have already said, I will kill them or die trying. Save the last 2 shells for my dog and me.
My dog is not for forceful protection but just to alert me there is someone there. Also, my companion.

onceamarine
Yes, full disclosure: I was a (GASP!!) liberal in my youth. I was given a crash course in life after college while living in a not-so-savory part of Dallas. My boyfriend-now-hubby was patient with me, and was able to cure me of my dementia. Now, I'm looking forward to my beautiful Sig this Christmas, along with 'concealed' class for Valentine's Day. He's soooo romantic...Sigh...

YLG
If I were to meet you for a cup of joe, would I have to fear for my safety? ;-)

I'm open for any coffee you prefer. I will say that my wife is more of a weapon carrying supporter than I (although neither of us own a weapon).

I do keep a genuine lumber Cleveland Indian's, Travis Hafner bat in reach in the bedroom (just in case), but fortunately have never been in a situation where I needed to use it.

There are a lot of folks that have the belief that a problem can be addressed by suppressing the means to the end (the "guns kill people" mentality).

I surely don't buy that, and absolutely believe that the government has enough trouble just trying to spend our tax dollars in Iraq, let alone figure out how to keep people from owning guns.

So, on this issue, I'm with the 'right' minded folks.

btw - my testosterone level for a lib is quite good thank you.

Onceamarine and Tiger
If/when the civil war starts, the liberals will be the good little bureaucrats sucking up to the invaders/ones taking our weapons. We will be the ones hiding behind trees and rocks fighting them. I would rather die free than live in dhimmitude or under socalled government protection

BlueBuckeye73
You sound like a fun person with whom to debate! You shouldn't fear for your safety while in my company, though. I don't aim for liberals, just perps!!

As for your testosterone level, I was not impugning yours, I was impugning people like MLD, jetpilot, and traitorous republicans. They run very low on testosterone, trust me.

Sounds to me that your level is quite good!!

UncleB
Can you say, "Red Dawn"?

YLG
I would bet you a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that my wife WAS more liberal than you ever thought about being. You see she was originally from Boston! Now she lives here in Indiana with me and although she still thinks like a lib in some ways, she owns a small seven shot 9 mm (a first for her whole family) and she knows how to use it! She even voted for our new Republican mayor, and after a short discussion on the issues and most of all, security for our country, she is whole heartily behind Duncan Hunter in the primaries! How’s that for life changing attitude?

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

"YLG..wouldn't be
noticed." Great Scott, Woman, how would you find it in time to use it? :-D. Wait, i see. You hit the footpad with the purse and the Glock, doing its bit with the accumulation of other vital articles, flattens the foolish fellow with non-recoverable injury.

Actually, an unfamiliar, and therefore unpredictable, woman with a gun in her hand strikes fear into any male criminal's bones.

Savage99
You smooth talker, you!

(Insert big grin here).

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

YLG
Seen it a couple of times. We all need the occasional "refresher course". One of the reasons I live in the warmer climates of Florida. If I am gonna have to fight the bad guys, I would rather do it in a tank top and shorts rather than a parka. I spent 13 years in the DFW area myself. Home base was Lewisville. Drove all over the metroplex for my job.

Max Power
I believe he's leaning towards a .380, but he wishes to keep it a surprise! ;-)

He hasn't shown me a catalog or anything like that, but he is planning on taking me to the gun show this weekend.

UncleB
I lived in Dallas, Irving, and North Richland Hills. I hated Central Expressway, which is still an oxymoron, and they still haven't finished the Loop (635?).

I'm in South Texas, and will probably retire here, as well. As far as I'm concerned, 'snow' is a four letter word!

jetpilot
Are you saying it is only President Bush that has corrupted the very principles of self government? The truth is both parties have ignored the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people, saving responses in favor of those ideals as TV sound bites. The two parties have rigged the election process to allow themselves to stay in power by duping us into thinking we have no other choice, nowhere else to go. That shouldn't surprise anyone. Seventyfive percent don't like Bush, but 90% don't like congress.

What we need to do is stop the elites in both perties from gaining anymore power than they already have. The best way to do that is to deny them the Presidency! If we do that in 2008, we will be able to reclaim the birthright these elites have stolen from us and begin the restoration of our founding principles as the way in which we govern ourselves as a free people! If you are interested in seeing how that can be done, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Check it out, why not? The elites have refused to hear what the people have been saying and they have stolen our inheritance, hiding behind the phony liberal/conservative policy fight that does nothing but serve their interests in holding onto power. Thanks, Joe

Really not an honest question
stedes writes: 11:44 AM
Individual or Militia Rights?
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
---------
ts:
The People are the Militia
--------
stedes writes:
Can someone tell me what the founders meant by "militia" and "well regulated". Who regulates? What can they regulate?
---------
ts:
Having a Chain of Command in place at all times.
With known leaders who would call the Militia out if and when needed.
Just takes looking at the Militia then in existence, it was the people themselves.
There was no National Guard.
-------------
stedes writes:
Also, isn't the right to bear arms already regulated? You cannot own military weapons such as RPG's, Howitzers, buy an F15 aircraft, Abrams tank or put SAM's in your backyard. Why isn't this an infrigment on your 2A rights?
-------
ts:
Those are all crew weapons.
None of it needed for personal defense and is over and above the subjects of Rights the Bill of Rights concerned itself with.
------------
stedes writes:

It seems to me the founders were concerned with public defense rather than individual protetction. If this is so, then since each state already has a National Guard, why is the Second Admendment relevant or neccessary today?
---------
ts:
We have elected representatives to speak for us(supposedly), lets just give up our rights to speech and let them do all the talking
-------
stedes writes:
I ask becasue I honestly do not know and I am really curious on how you distinguish..
----
ts:
If indeed anyone is honest
Read the history of why and how the Bill of Rights was added to the US Constitution.
They were added for one reason only.
To protect the Right of Individuals from Government.(Read the history of George Mason and the Bill of Rights)
Individuals have rights
Governments have duties, and called our servant, not our rulers which they have now become.
Government is instituted to Protect Rights.


Max Power
A while back, GunnyG had a column on his blog about gun rights and the state senators of New York trying to curtail ownership of guns by veterans who had had psychiatric help. His description of his enjoyment while shooting his gun ended with, "Only sex is better".

I felt I needed a cigarette after that, and I don't smoke....

"libs"
aren't against guns. many anti-gun advocates are democrats but as a liberal who is registered to vote "unaffilliated" i will state for the record that the second amendment is unambiguous. this is an issue that the republicans will make as partisan as possible.

YLG
Sig makes a great .380. There is none better. Its a good choice for a carry gun. Shoot it lots, first to get used to it, second because as a gun wears in it becomes more reliable, third, if there should be a problem, best it show up on the range.
My experience is that most anti-gun females are merely unfamiliar with them. As soon as they burn a little powder and realize they can very quickly compete with men in marksmanship, the challenge, the level playing field, and the sense of accomplishment convert a very high proportion to pro-gunners. My sister in law was the victim of a home invasion while visiting a friend. Her immediate reaction was to have me get her a gun. I gave her a Walther .380 i had lying around from a lucky evening at poker. The Walther is the Sig's major competitor. Don't feel undergunned with a .380. Just HAVING a gun stops almost all attacks. The difference in stopping power between a .380 and something big like a .45 is like 70% to 90% one shot stops. But the .380 is much easier to practice with and shoot straight and often. Only the hits count in that 70/90 comparison.

How about
12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot, for home defense.

A "Well Regulated" stedes.
stedes, the word "regulated" in the 2nd. Amendment is not the same definition as the word "regulation" in modern conversation. "Well Regulated" is a term of military art meaning that it is defined within the context of the military vocabulary with a specific definition. It means "of relating to the standards of a "regular" soldier. A regular soldier is considered to be trained, equipped and disciplined and are superior to "militia" and "volunteers". In the movie "Patriot", the British Generals want to know if they have been attacked by American "Regulars", "Militia" or "volunteers". Militia can become "Regulars" and volunteers can become either depending upon equipment and training.

IOW's, "Well regulated", in the 2A has has nothing to do with "regulation" but derives its meaning from its root word "Regis" as in King. "Regulars" are the "Kings Troops". The better regulated one is, in the 17th. Century military sense, the better trained, equipped and organized a soldier, or group of soldiers were.

"Well regulated" is like the word "Gay". It's meaning depends upon time, text and context, intent and fashion. What "gay" meant in 1890 is not what gay meant in 1990.
Now, how do you interpret a document from the 1890's that uses the word "gay" extensively, with the popular definition of "gay" from 1990. So it is with "regulated". Those who think it means gun regulation would be as wrong as those who think that the "Gay '90's" is all about homosexuality.

traitorous republicans
you say "i will state for the record that the second amendment is unambiguous. this is an issue that the republicans will make as partisan as possible."

Are you a lib and do you support the 2nd amendment. You were so unambiguous I could not tell where you stood except against the Republicans

Typical obfuscation
NO... Not all libs are anti-second amendment (examples given in article) HOWEVER, the huge majority of anti-second amendment people ARE LIBS.

Its similar to terrorists and Muslims.

Savage99
If I do get a .380, I will be going to the range a lot, just to have some time with my hubby without little eyes around.

Wow, you won a Walther in a poker game?? You should come down here and try your luck in San Antonio!

Geneva convention, Jet Pilot
The Geneva and Hague Conventions require a blindfold and a clean bullet for unlawful combatants, out of uniform, hiding among civilians no command structure, all that. Instead, we intern them in Cuba. The Red Cross has visited the detainees in Guantanamo many times. The guy who complained about his under-inflated soccer ball was making a torture allegation. This and more serious allegations are constantly reiterated, and conflated, but that does not make them true. Nor does it mean we are violating Geneva and Hague. There is currently a debate over whether water boarding constitutes torture. American military trainees are water boarded. We do not electro shock them or any of the other stuff of real real torture, so I would be inclined to say water boarding is not torture. Three halal meals a day in Guantanamo, such that the detainees are gaining weight, does not sound much like Stalag 17. (13, maybe)The Left is simply factually challenged. This makes rational discourse very difficult.Please forgive me if I sometimes appear to lose patience.

bluebuckeye73
Since you agree with American Patriot Party on the second amendment, you are a conservative thinker----don't call yourself nasty names---like Liberal. Be a proud AMERICAN!!!!!!

Rebellion is needed today against
The over bearing oppressive good and bad intentions of self important people, using government to force their will on others.
I do not care how well intentioned any idea is if it takes away a single persons right to decide an issue of standing lawfully recognized rights.


If all citizens would actually obey the law then we could do away with any need for self protection.
No one exists in the world who can make a reasonable argument that some law will stop crime.

The law is for once thing and one thing only.
To take vengeance on criminals.

If the world did not have people in it that will kill you, steal from you, or rape your wife and your daughters, or take your rights to decide where and how you live and believe, no law is needed.

When Justice was the intent of the Law as it used to be in America, no one ever thought about making any law against a citizens right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Today, the Law itself is being suborned to the will of oppressors and Justice is denied.

If just one person in Washington DC was murdered by a criminal due to the oppressive injustice of taking away the right to defend oneself, we have the Law makers joining in with the criminals to make crime pay.

I alone will decide for myself if I give up my God Given Right to protect myself.
No Politician, no Judge has the right to decide it for me.

Law is only good if its used Lawfully.
When the State is given the power to say what the law is by the "rule of law" then the State is the enemy of the People as seen all through out the history of the world by oppressive rulers.

The age old battle over power seekers who desire to have their own will over all the citizens of their kingdoms.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro and the entire history of the world is how evil men use the powers of State to TAKE Rights, not PROTECT RIGHTS as the American System is Founded

Mak Power
What do you expect from someone who is 'unaffiliated'? He can't even make up his mind to jump off the fence and choose a side.

max power- concerning bloomburg
i think bloomburg used to be a democrat and has been a very moderate republican. also fred thompson is right when he says not everyone in nyc is like the rest of america. i live in rural nc and my "neighbors" (about a half mile away) shoot all the time. for me to sit in my room and hear thirty rounds go off means nothing more than they are shooting various broken down household appliances that litter there yard.

traitorous republicans writes:
aren't against guns. many anti-gun advocates are democrats but as a liberal who is registered to vote "unaffilliated" i will state for the record that the second amendment is unambiguous. this is an issue that the republicans will make as partisan as possible.


You may be right about that, and maybe we should all get behind this and fight for that right. I think anyone, regardless of wanting to own a firearm or not, should stand up and be counted on this issue! No way should any of us give up this constitutional right for any reason!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!



jetpilot
As a Liberal & a communist party backer you are mentally insane, and -- threfore should not be able to buy a gun, or - any OTHER weapon for self defense.
YOUR communist party people are intent on destroying this nation & by GOD they will have to come through people like me to get it done.

Max Power
You are correct: even his moniker gives away his need to project unto others...

ylg
maybe i won't tow a party line. the truth is, if there were any decent republican candidates i would vote for them.
all of them today are still trying to kill the middle class we had until reagan came along and said that giving money to the rich will make poor people better off. despite the obvious oxymoronic nature of the argument many republicans bought it because it came packaged with a bible and wrapped in a flag. republicans, the party of deficit spending and tax breaks for the rich and incorporated, have voted against their best interests since reagan. and he is hailed in the msm as some sort of conservative hero when he was nothing more than an actor suffering from alzheimers during his tenure in office.

Max Power
BTW, Bloomberg was a Democrat, until he decided to run for mayor, then he switched parties to Republican, and now is a registered independent.

You're wrong, Doc
There are lies for Libs. Its just that Libs can't lie. However, any fact that does not fit into their agenda is a lie, and the messenger is a liar.

t r
Why are you invoking Reagan here?

BTW, before Reagan, my family was on welfare, and fighting to get out of it. When Reagan became president, we became part of the middle class you think started to disappear.

Feel free to disparrage a man's dehabilitating disease here. It only shows your utter contempt and your lack of intelligence.

max
i could have lied

Some Interesting Facts....
that I am surprised I don't see being put out there. Anti gun nuts like to say that banning guns lowers crime, yet here we are with Washington DC and a total gun ban and this city end in, end out has one of the highest crime rates in the country. Now on the other end of the coin, take Kennesaw, GA, where city law mandates that every house hold within city limits must have a fire arm on the premise. The result...Kennesaw has the second lowest crime rate of any city in the country.

Connection?...I'd say so.

ylg
i don't think it is crass of me to point out that the president was likely suffering from a very serious neurological disorder in which the memories disappear and it is likely he and others around him knew it. in the beginning of his presidency he was coherant, near the end he was known for napping in cabinet meetings.

YLG
Dont even bother with trash like treasonous. He simply comes in and baits and changes the subject and is just "against" anything put forward by the rest of us. AKA troll.

t r
Read Max's post above.

As for taking naps, I would rather have a president sleeping at a cabinet meeting, than one being 'serviced' while on a call to the middle east.

See how easy it is to deviate from the topic? I'll help you get back on track:

I'M PRO GUNS, HOW ABOUT YOU?

UncleB
Oh, I know he's a troll. I'm just feeling frisky after all the gun talk! ;-)

YLG
Do you have any single sisters say in their mid 50's.......

UncleB
Ooooooh, shame on you!!

Nope, no single sisters, and I'm 41, and the eldest. But there are many women here in San Antonio that would consider going to the gun range as a romantic overture!

There is no honesty
In any person alive who questions if any man has a right to protect himself.

It is the very basics between good and evil.

Ken writes:
'The American people have the right to know how a presidential candidate would interpret the Constitution’s most basic tenet — the rights of individuals over government.'


To question the idea that an individual has a God Given Right to Self Protection comes from evil.
Its a wicked man who would even question this Right.
It's as dishonest as questioning a persons right to breathe air, another God Given Right.

The Court of World history was tried by the Founders of America and the Judgment has been made.

Dishonest men are the only people who from ulterior motives to take rights would dare question a settled issue.
There is nothing to question over an individuals rights to keep and bear arms for his own reasons.
Let alone his right to defend himself from the criminals that now rule the streets because the Justice System itself has been hi-jacked by ambitious men who use it for their own enrichment.

All who will question the 2nd Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and seek to INFRINGE upon this Right comes from dishonest crime supporting evil men.
I do not care if they carry a badge or hold high office.
None of them are my ruler.
I am a Free Born Independent American Citizen that will die before I give up my God Given Rights to the dishonest abusers of the Justice System.

The Line is drawn over this question by the Founders of this Nation in easy understood language USED in the CONTEXT of the day it was WRITTEN.

The Bill of Rights is not up for personal interpretations of any man, as all who can read the English Language understand it with perfect understanding.
Questions come from evil and confused minds not from Honest Men.

YLG
Hmmmm...lets see....Southwest Airlines. Been a while since I/ve been to the riverwalk.
Does Texas recognize Florida's concealed carry permit....8^)

Sorry for the length. (My hot button)
The 2nd amendment is written in clear mandatory language.
It preempts ALL firearms legislation and related subjects.

Just like all predators, criminals tend to gather and prosper wherever easy prey is abundant. Easy human prey was not abundant in America prior to the epidemic of anti-gun laws that disarmed many honest citizens. When men often went armed our parks, highways, city streets and homes were safe.
Your grandmother could safely go for a cool evening stroll, your daughter could sleep safely with a bedroom window open to catch a cool breeze, people left homes unlocked and keys in cars, bank robbery and murder were so rare they made Coast to Coast headline news. Only cowards and criminals feared guns in the hands of honest men.

Today, after 22,000+ anti-gun laws have disarmed only honest citizens we have localities where only criminals own firearms and protecting your home and family is now unlawful. If you left your home unlocked you would be lucky to still have wall paper when you returned. Bank robbery & murder are so common they barely make page 3 of local papers. If your grandmother went for a cool evening stroll you would expect to find her in the city morgue and if your daughter failed to lock a window at night she might get her picture on milk cartons.
___________Continued__________________

Part two of my rant.
_____________Part 2______________________

Police can't prevent crime and Courts have ruled Police have no obligation to protect anyone. Police arrive after the fact and fill out forms. Only someone at the scene, at the time and armed can prevent a crime from happening. Otherwise you pay the price for being a helpless victim.
Home Invaders often rape and torture a family to discover where valuables are located without bothering to search. Care to guess when they are certain they have everything of value and no one is holding something back?

Several States have removed restrictions on private firearms owners and been rewarded with drastic reductions in violent crime, safer streets and neighborhoods.

This proves beyond any doubt that presumptuous anti-gun laws based upon some coward's aversion to firearms actually create criminals by providing easy victims.
The people responsible for anti-gun laws are responsible for every one of the additional crimes that result. They are just as guilty as if they helped to hold a girl who is being raped or pulled the trigger to shoot a store clerk because they increased the number of times such criminal incidents occur. Increased crime raises taxes & insurance rates, escalates inflation and causes fear of crime to permeate our cities.
For today's excessive crime you can blame Gunophobes who disarm honest citizens.

UncleB
Yes, they do!!

Be right back; going to play 'mom taxi' after school!

stedes et al
It's contemptably dishonest the manner in which liberals choose to read 'the People' as referred in the Second Amendment as being different from 'the People' referred to in all the other amendments. If guns can be outlawed - not AK47's or flamethrowers - then so can free speech, the right to peacably assemble, etc. ad nauseum.

What did the Framers mean?
stedes and others choose to interpret the meaning of the words of the Constitution to suit their own prejudices. There is no shortage of material to learn exactly what the Framers meant. I suggest the Federalist Papers.

ylg max power 1:34 1:40
you deviated from the topic. check the scroll at the times listed above, one right after another.

jworley - apples and oranges
"Anti gun nuts like to say that banning guns lowers crime, yet here we are with Washington DC and a total gun ban and this city end in, end out has one of the highest crime rates in the country. Now on the other end of the coin, take Kennesaw, GA, where city law mandates that every house hold within city limits must have a fire arm on the premise. The result...Kennesaw has the second lowest crime rate of any city in the country."

Kennesaw
population: 21,675
2,568 per sq. mile
$60,404 Median income per household

DC
population: 581,000+
over 17,000 unemployed

Fair to compare the two?

But, out of curiosity, what's the difference between mandating NOT being able to own a weapon and;
Mandating HAVING to own a weapon?

And YLG, if you're ever up north (ohio), give me a holler for some caffeine. I'd love to spar with you (btw, you can "carry" in these parts, sos you won't have to worry.

there ya go again TR buh bye
MyOpine, I agree, but how will the poor soul's ever take over, if we don't lay down our arms without a fight?
Answer-they can NOT!

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

traitorous
See what I mean y'all. I rained on his little parade.

max power
"traitorous republicans writes: Monday, November, 26, 2007 1:18 PM
"libs"
aren't against guns. many anti-gun advocates are democrats but as a liberal who is registered to vote "unaffilliated" i will state for the record that the second amendment is unambiguous. this is an issue that the republicans will make as partisan as possible."


-noting that rupblicans are going to exploit this is not a cheap shot. in a presidential debate where republicans have no issues what better than a "democrats want to take away your guns, republicans will protect you from them"
do you disagree?

uncleb
"See what I mean y'all. I rained on his little parade."

-yes, now my day is ruined because you... you... well you must have done something.
hey i just heard cheney is back in the hospital for his bum ticker. let's hope this is the last time he has to go there.

traitorous
There u go changing the subject again to the veep.

t r
I merely deviated from the topic to point out your stupidity.

I brought the topic back to you with my 2:30 PM post. I see you didn't bother answering it.

2nd amendment
is the most important of the bill of rights as it gives us the people a way to defend ourselves against an ll powerful federal government, the other amendments arent worth the paper they are written on without the 2nd

ylg
did you read my first post? of course i think the 2nd amendment is important-it is very near the top. as i understand the supreme court is hearing a case concerning handguns in a very small but densely populated area. now i live in a small town which is the largest in this county. i can but handguns at many stores. there is even a convenience store down the road that sells gas, pork rinds, bait and all sorts of firearms. but if i lived in a city full of crazies i have to admit i would want it to be hard to get any weapon.
background checks and licenses should be sufficient. i think we already have enough gun laws on the books and it is high time they were enforced.

bluebuckeye
i have to know- are you a michigan fan in ohio?
you're handle suggests that could be the case.

max
some dems. not all dems by far. things have changed a bit. no one in the anti-gun movement (i try not to use the term "gun" unless refering to the anti-2nd amendment crowd) would be considered mainstream outside of large cities.
my hippiest friends introduced me to rifles and shotguns in college.

max
guns and abortion.
they are both wedge issues used in campaigns even though nothing will change in regard to either. do you think that repugs politicians want to lose abortion as a campaign issue? do you think the inner city representatives in the house want to lose the handgun issue.
we're all being played.

2nd Admendment
I am A Former Marine Whom thinks everyone should carry. I believe the 2nd admendment is MY Right to carry a weapon and to kill you if you try to hurt me or mine. I was also a policeman and a lot of times people may have been better off if they had a weapon. But you know being an exmarine
shucks we were taught how to blow up things and kill people. Nuff Said. Lambat

lambat
some people don't like guns. your idea that everyone should carry is similar to a drunkards idea that everyone should drink.
former marine? they need you now. and you aren't there. Nuff said.

t r
I saw your post, but was confused when you threw in the 'republicans will make it as partisan as possible' bit.

Every liberal (notice I didn't say 'democrat') I know wants to curtail the right to own and bear arms. I am not joking, or exagerating. Every one! Most democrats I know do not even want to mess with the 2nd amendment. This alone tells me all I need to know about liberals.

YLG
Bersa makes a terrific .380, 15 rounds, unless you are in CA, and then you can't have one. Link below. Very reasonably priced. Rubber grips, compact. I keep mine loaded with Remington Golden Saber personal defense rounds, best thing available in that caliber IMHO.
Sig makes great guns as well, I have a couple of them in larger calibers.


http://www.galleryofguns.com/gungallery/PowerSearch/Product .asp?item_num=THUN380PDT15&index=3&max=20&start=20&instock= None&manufact_combo=Bersa&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo =None&model=None&g_type=None&act_type=None&finish_type=None &calib_combo=None&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&q PromoID=&EZ=&left_handed=&youth=&item_only=0&oldsql=WHERE+m anuf+like+%27%25Bersa%25%27++ORDER+by+manuf%2C+unk2%2C+unk3

t r
That last comment about Lambat being a former marine was cheap in the extreme. Do you know his or her age? If they are disabled? Perhaps he did serve and cannot do so now. Why attack him? It only serves to undermine your arguement and makes you look like a complete moron.

Virginia Patriot
Thanks for the link. I will have to delete your post so my hubby doesn't become enamored of you!! ;-)

tr - blasphemy
Buckeye fan tried and true - Alumnus as well!!
If I was a gun toter I'd call you out for a remark like that....kidding of course, since the Bucks whooped on the Wolverines already!

Citizen Disarmament Redux
You may recall that some 12 - 15 yrs ago, during the 1st siege - I mean, Clinton term, there was a HUGE full-court press to enact all sorts of gun restrictions, incl'g the infamous "assault weapons ban."

One disgusting feature of that time was this steaming mound of idiotic "scientific" & "medical" studies being grunted out by various researchers, purporting to prove guns cause killings & don't defend against violent assault. They were being funded by tax $$$, e.g. the CDC, & published in reputable journals like the JAMA & New England J of M.

Then John Lott et al discredited them totally. Pow.

(Same sort of thing happening w/ "global warming" exc fewer people realize where this is taking us, & the 'warmies' & their allies are much more persistent & devious.)

T'wasn't long afterwards both houses of Congress went to the Republicans. Not a coincidence. Unfortunately, we since learned that having a GOP-run Congress and a conservative Congress are 2 different things.

Now, as with "global warming," the Demmies want to "stealth" if not lie about their positions on the citizen disarmament issue. They don't want to address it; they want to get in power anyway they can so they can give some regulatory agency & compliant judges the power to de facto ban guns.

They can't give this up permanently. Citizen disarmament is a fundamental prerequisite to most of their schemes. Once everyone is disarmed, to bully the population, all they would have to do is just fail to enforce the law & let the hoodlums & gangsters run amuck, as has happened in Britain.

BlueBuckeye73
I wouldn't carry out of respect for company ;-)

As to Ohio, I was just there for a road trip to the Longaberger Homestead. With a bunch of 'basket cases' in tow. In the freezing rain. Next time I go, it better be SUMMER!!!

ylg-lambat
i said the republicans will make it partisan because they know that while few democrats support "taking guns away" while their entire base can be whipped up into a fervor over the issue.
if lambat can type he can go to iraq. only a small percentage fight. he could even go as a civilian contractor and support the troops by feeding them. but no, he is a washout.

BlueBuckeye73
I was there for the Ohio State vs. Michigan game. I was very sorry they lost. If it's any consolation, my alma mater lost that day, too!

btw - tr
You sure aren't making many friends in here.
What's up?
My motto:
Communicate without offending;
listen to everyone and everything;
believe in nothing you hear until you verify in your gut what you know to be true (and facts kinda help that cause);
once you've established an informed belief, don't back down to anyone and maintain your integrity;
have the guts to openly admit to your mistakes;
and finally, if you have to...
get your 9mm and sound off :-)
(for my weapon toting believer friends...if I have any in here)

bluebuckeye
i'm glad you can laugh. i am a lifelong michigan fan and have to admit we have been nothing but humbled under tressell.
the funniest thing is i am an alumni of appalachian state unversity, the 1aa team that beat michigan in the season opener, so i don't mind the toilet season that ensued for michigan.

t r
I see you can type, as well.

So now you know what the requisites for being a contractor are?

I can't go as a contractor, and I can type. Your logic seems to be faulty.

Once again, you show yourself to be nothing but a vile, contemptible excuse for a poster.

Sorry to Hear that YLG
Not that your a UM alum, but that you were sad.
Sorry to stray off topic with this football talk.
And your right (which you knew since you were at UM), next time, make it summer.

gotta run...but will be back...

bluebuckeye
i am here for debate. there are two types- high road and low road. i will not hesitate to take either.
some people here will engage in a good argument but many will scurry off or put me on the "ignore list". i don't think these people realize the "ignore list" is a white flag.
right now i need to order and pick up a sub but i will be back if you would like more on a libs gun perspective.

In a lighter tone
IF Hillary was elected President and some General decided to take over by military coup and Hillary called upon Irregulars to form up a Millitia;

Would you;
A: Grab your gun and report to the General?
B: Laugh so hard you crack a rib?
C: Recognize this as a scam to grab your gun and run to hide your rifle?

BlueBuckeye73 "gun toting friends"
__Pretty much said my piece, and what insures peace, earlier on this thread. Facts are always a good thing, along with a fully loaded magazine, and backups. I always like reading comments from the armed, and the scared to death of those being armed. The armed seemed to always fully loaded, and the unarmed scrambling to find the powder. Baby powder to soothe the chafed areas.

ylg
"I see you can type, as well.

So now you know what the requisites for being a contractor are?

I can't go as a contractor, and I can type. Your logic seems to be faulty."

-can you serve food? welcome to halliburton.

BlueBuckeye73
Sorry, you misunderstand me: I'm not from the Michigan area either. My alma mater is Texas A&M, which redeemed itself against University of Texas on Friday.

As for t r, it's par for the course with him.

2ND AMNEDMENT
WHEN ONE READS THE SECONND AMENDMENT, THE COMMA THAT COMES AFTER THE WORD MILITIA, SEPARATES TWO SEPARATE THOUGHTS. THEREFORE THE RIGHT FOR CITIZENS TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, CANNOT BE SEEN AS NOTHING LESS BY THE SUPREME COURT. THEY CANNOT BAN THE LAWFUL OWNERSHIP OF FIREARMS.

MOTAS

t r
Still not "listening", are you?

Do you know why I can't be a contractor?

Do you know in what capacity I would have served?

Do you have two brain cells to rub together?

The answer to all three would be "No".

ylg
Do you know why I can't be a contractor?

-i believe that you are physically able to be a contractor

Do you know in what capacity I would have served?


-contractors launder clothes and cook food. you could work at taco bell in the green zone unless you aren't mentally up to it.

Do you have two brain cells to rub together?


-my brain cells don't "rub together"

traitorous republicans writes:
-my brain cells don't "rub together"

They just don't work the way they are supposed to.

t r
Thank you for your brilliant assessment of my capabilities.

If I recall, I didn't start this fight with you; you did, when you attacked a poster for being a former Marine. I came to his defense, because you had just typed to BlueBuckeye73 that you are "here for debate". That was far from debate. It was a partisan attack, showing you are not here for debate but for disruption.

You don't know me, or care. And that's fine, since I don't know you, or care to know you. But if the post above is your idea of debate, then you have nailed your coffin shut with your stupidity.

As to what contractors do, look it up. You are in need of an education.

Lumberjack7392
You may be right in that his cells don't work the way they should. I happen to think in retrospect that I gave him waaaay too much credit by saying he had two brain cells.

MyOpine: Re your post of 5:19 PM
I'd chose "D"
As present commander of my own "irregular" militia, I'd take advantage of the chaos caused by a military coup and attempt to capture Hillary. If successful, I'd convene a court martial, and after a fair trial lasting 5 minutes, find her guilty of treason and have her immediately executed. A Military coup is preferable to a Communist Dictatorship under Hillary


2nd Amendment
Obviously the Constitution protects an individual's right to bear arms. Any interpretation otherwise is dishonest. However, we live in a country today where many of our individual liberties are being taken away or have been lost. Here's my bet on the Supreme Court's decision on the 2nd amendment. The "people" has to mean an individual right because throughout the Bill of Rights, people is used for an individual right and State is used where a collective right is guaranteed. They can't take a position that threatens all other individual rights. However, I think the justices (remember they are just lawyers with connections)will grant the individual right and still allow the States to restrict gun ownership to some degree. In certain instances (felons, mentally ill, etc) such restrictions are necessary. The key will be how narrowly they define "restrictions". The restrictions could be draconian even if an individual right is granted. All people who believe in freedom must keep voting those who restrict our rights out of office. The Supreme Court decision can't do that for us.

Ragnar
Man, I love saying your name! Rolls off the tongue...

I wish to be part of this militia, and the jury, as well. I feel like Horshack saying "Ooh, ooh!!", while raising my hand...

MyOpine
B FIRST then A

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

traitorous republicans writes:
was a bit overwhelmed by the police presence in s.c. over the holiday weekend. none of your boys got me

Too bad!!!!!!

Ragnar
To do it "by the Book" we need to grab 1/2 the Democrats in Congress.

U.S Constitution, Article III, Sect. 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainer of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attained.

myopine
hasn't bush "adhered to our enemies" by ruining our economy by placing our troops halfway around the world in an area that is a breeding ground for contempt towards occupiers.
where is osama?

TR scribbles:
where is osama?

you said that like a kid hiding something. Is he in your basement?

Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

My Opine
Your comment re: Art lll sect 3 US Constitution is well understood. My answer "D", was meant in keeping with the humorous mood of your questionnaire and of course meant in jest. As we all know, Seriously suggesting the execution of a President or Presidential candidate is NO NO. LOL

Ragnar
I understood your jest.
As a WW2 Vet I tend to judge the conduct of our Democrats rather harshly.
In a different era they would be held to account for encouraging the enemy and trying to demoralize our own military.
I guess that makes me "judgemental".

.The Supreme Court ...
(back on the subject), will most definitely rule in favor of the right to bear arms. There really is no other decision for the court to make.

The real question, how can a society address the level of violence that has evolved. It's clearly not a matter of banning weapons.

Drugs are ilegal to possess; prostitution is illegal, and the list goes on. It just doesn't work.

We, as a free and independent society must have the right to personal choice and, as well, be held accountable for our actions.

It's a matter of instilling a level of responsibility among individuals. Learn to live without infringement could help somewhat. But, hey, what do I know...

BlueBuckeye73
Picture in your mind millions of people with a need for personal protection, who have been denied the use of firearms for decades, suddenly given the right to own firearms when all they know about them is what they see on TV!

BlueBuckeye73
Hey there!!

Glad to see you returned. To go back to a different post, no, I didn't attend Michigan, I went to Texas A&M. As to t r, he always manages to trash himself into idiocy. I thought there was a chance at debate with him, but things degenerated to the point of him telling " f them" to mercenaries... As far as he goes, I will ignore most of his posts, and no, it doesn't mean a "white flag" from me. It means, "I know better people with whom to engage". This, of course, includes you!

Target practice is fun.
Taurus

I can't hit much, but I make up for
it in #'s of shots. :D

Some of us are not great shots, so get us the nicer ones.

MyOpine
Dude...you have that now...millions of people with the right to decide if they need a weapon to defend themselves. And what percentage of our highly enlightened society know much of anything without referencing t.v.?
And who has been denied the use of firearms? I thought, worst case scenario, one need to register to own.
Maybe I'm missing your point.

Tratorous rep
Are you able to type? are you able to carry a weapon? That man already has for his country and probably more. What have you done for your country to partly quote one of your more famous dems. I know, you've lived off the fat of the land, reaped the benefits of being an American and done nothing in return. Am I getting close?
That Marine said nothing to disparage you and you attacked him without provocation. Typical man, typical.

Hunter/Tancredo "08" The Dream Team!!!!!

YLG
So your an Aggie! And y'all "hooked" them horns, good job! It certainly has been one roller coaster season for college football (damn, I love the game). Don't know how closely you follow the sport, but there has been one thing consistent...there has been no consistency...maybe lots of parity.

And for tr, I haven't followed his line of posts in this stream (and am fairly new to the townhall scene), but he went to the same college, Appalachian state, as my nephew. And he claims to be a liberal.

I'll cut him some slack until I figure out his gig (naturally, he has one strike against him, being a Michigan fan).

aDNA
Look around you, where you set right now and try to find a target about the size of a door knob, about 14 to 20 feet away.
Study the target location.
Close your eyes and RAISE your finger to point at the target.
Open your eyes and see how close you are.
You will come closer each time you try.

Then try with your pistol;
Use a "Snap Shell" so you don't ruin the firing pin;
Practice trigger control, squeezing the trigger as you raise the gun. The object is for the gun to fire just as it raises level with the target.

From this point it is just practice to attain speed.

BlueBuckeye73
D.C. Has been denied the right to own.
That is what this Court case is about.

Limbaugh complained about not being able to take possession of a shotgun the NRA gave him while he lived in New York City because citizens there were not allowed to own firearms.

Those are both BIG cities!

Do you know if New Orleans ever returned the firearms they confiscated during the flood?

practice, practice, practice
Close my eyes and aim for your door knob. Got it.



YLG
Lady you just cut me to the bone. OUCH! I might live in Ohio now, but I'm born and raised in Michigan. I root for the Browns, Indians, and the Cavs but I just can't drop my Wolverines. I hope you don't think too badly of me now. Tears are runnin'.


Hunter/Tancredo "08" The Dream Team!!!!

No Clue about New Orleans MyOpine
I have to admit, I am not well versed on the weapons scene. I find no use for them myself, but I do support your right to own and carry.

I must also admit, it's a little scary reading some of the posts relating to the use of weapons. Perhaps tongue in cheek, but there seems to be rather flippant regard for the use of their weapons.

Regarding the DC law, I did not think it had been enacted as yet, given the appeals. Not aware of what happened to Limbaugh (mainly because I choose not to listen to the dude).

But, ultimately, I don't think that you have anything to worry about with gun control.

Ain't gonna happen.

YLG
Don't shoot,but I made a mistake. It wasn't you but Bluebuckeye73 who cut me while posting to you. Blue cut me some slack will ya'? I might be a Wolverine fan but I'm a conservative,pro-gun and I love my country.
Guess it's time for me to hit the sheets before I make too many mistakes.Take care all.


Hunter/Tancredo "08" The Dream Team!!!

eastlake joe
I'm not a fan of Louisville, LSU, Arkansas, Auburn, or anything out of Florida.

So, if you like Michigan, dry your tears. They are a great team!

eastlake joe
and where is this poor helpless (is he really a) marine?

ylg
woohoo! vindication from ylg

rather flippant regard for the use of
their weapons.



BANG! Bang bang!

I am learning. :D

Bought mine after that guy tied up the parents, told the kids to get a hammer for him, and killed them with it. Then he went to campgrounds around the area, where they found the boy's remains, abused. Found the girl alive, but this perpetrator lives in a prison awaiting a US funded appeal.




BlueBuckeye73
You are right to support firearms ownership for those who are willing and able.

While it is lawful to own firearms, criminals have no idea who does and does not own guns.

A group of criminals could easily overpower you at your front door but they have no way to be sure someone in your family will not produce a pistol.

They can't be sure whether your teenage daughter with a .22 pistol will give them an option of laying on the floor to wait for police or falling on the floor to wait for the Coroner or if she will just start shooting.

Every firearm in the home of an honest citizen makes every man's home just a little bit safer.

Yo Joe
To a fellow NE Ohioan, it could have been worse..you could have been a Steelers AND Yankee fan (along with the Wolverines).

Maybe the Maize and Blue will do better without Carr (God, I hope not).

And, for the record, I love this country, am (sort of) pro gun, support our troops (but not the whackos that sent them there), and happen to be a liberal in a conservative state.

BlueBuckeye73
Af for college football, I agree: it has turned into a free-for-all. I was so happy to see the Aggies win this past Friday!! One more year of bragging rights, and my friends in Austin haven't called me to congratulate my team...sniff...

Just a word about some of the posters here, though. There are some, like you, sophia/Devout Agnostic, Taft, and others who lean left and are above the cheap shots. WE LOVE YOU GUYS!!! You keep the debate open and fun. Others, like Robert/jetpilot/Rocky Jones, t r, Touj., Military Lovin Dogg (or whatever name he is using this week), and Hal Donahue are not here to debate, but to disrupt. This is something I learned early on. Mostly, we scroll by troll, troll being our name for the disruptors.

There are a few right leaning disruptors, too, and you will find them soon enough!

And no, New Orleans hasn't given the guns back yet.

bluebuckeye
BlueBuckeye73 writes: Monday, November, 26, 2007 10:59 PM
No Clue about New Orleans MyOpine
I have to admit, I am not well versed on the weapons scene. I find no use for them myself, but I do support your right to own and carry.

I must also admit, it's a little scary reading some of the posts relating to the use of weapons. Perhaps tongue in cheek, but there seems to be rather flippant regard for the use of their weapons.

Regarding the DC law, I did not think it had been enacted as yet, given the appeals. Not aware of what happened to Limbaugh (mainly because I choose not to listen to the dude).

But, ultimately, I don't think that you have anything to worry about with gun control.

Ain't gonna happen"



-we agreeeee!!!!! now just admit that u.m is a superior football program.heh,heh

MyOpine
As I type my last post for the evening (early 4:45 AM rise for strength training...I told you I could hold my own), I agree with you. You're right, and I can only say it's sad that one of the main reasons to own firearms is to have them to defend the sanctity of your own home.

Have a great night!

OK...can't sleep without responding TR
NO WAY!!

You said it...Tressel has been your demise, and he's only getting stronger (with his recruiting).

The man is a dedicated, committed genius, and a class act that few universities will ever have an opportunity to experience (with their coach).

OK, BO was up there, but he's gone now (God bless).

Good night and Go Bucks!!!

"flippant regard for the use of arms"
their weapons.



BANG! Bang bang!

I am learning. :D

Bought mine after that guy tied up the parents, told the kids to get a hammer for him, and killed them with it. Then he went to campgrounds around the area, where they found the boy's remains, abused. Found the girl alive, but this perpetrator lives in a prison awaiting a US funded appeal.

aDNA
The instructions I gave you that you found so humorous just happen to be the way to start learning the most lethal form of combat shooting there is.

You may have heard of men who can draw from a concealed holster and kill you before your brain can tell your finger to shoot the gun you are pointing at them?

Those instructions are the beginning of how you learn to shoot like that.

BANG bang bang?
If you miss that first shot you may not live for the second and third shot.
If you are too slow you may not even get a first shot.

I was just trying to be helpful not humorous.
Gun fights are not very funny.

I took you wrong.
I appologize for that, and I will take your sound
advice.

There is an excellent class here also.

Your post just before that left me in great doubt of your support of the 2nd Amendment: "suddenly given the right to own firearms when all they know about them is what they see on TV!" My fault.

Regards, aDNA







aDNA
What I intended to point out is the cost of training so many who must start by UNLEARNING everything they have seen on TV.

Almost every TV hero you see will do something utterly stupid with a firearm in every movie.

My favorite is standing right next to a lock and shooting down at it to break it.
Yep! that will break the lock.
It will also splatter your leg with bullet fragments that penetrate up to 1/2".(Yes OUCH!)

You have a fair idea of what will happen if you fire a pistol while the bore is obstructed?
Well pushing the barrel tight against someone obstructs the bore!

I could go on like this all night.
As you learn, you will notice these TV boo-boos too.

And on the subject of watching TV;
I think I shall go do that right now.
Night ALL

MyOpine
Having faith (after reading your 12:11 AM post) that the majority of firearm owners (do you think I can refer to you as the majority?) are of your ilk helps to defend an individual's right to own firearms.

Although my personal choice is not to own a firearm, and believe that they ultimately cause more harm than good, I do respect an individual's right to own a weapon (bear arms as the 2nd amendment states).

Reading your words gives me faith in the maturity and responsibility of firearm owners (I sure hope you represent the majority).

Fritz and "collective right".
Quote Fritz: "The "people" has to mean an individual right because throughout the Bill of Rights, people is used for an individual right and State is used where a collective right is guaranteed."

Nowhere in the entire text of the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights and all subsequent amendments can the word "collective" be found in the document. Only "people" and "person" have "rights", and only "states" and "United States" have "POWERS" and NEVER ANY RIGHTS OF ANY KIND!

Rights are individual and are considered to have existed before the document of the Constitution. The Constitution "delegates" specific "Powers" upon the United States (Federal Government) and the separate states and were created by the Constitution. Delegated powers may be withdrawn by "the people". Rights are off limits to government by the Constitution.

The bogus legal oxymoron of "collective rights" was an evil invention of the Nixon Administration in an attempt to disarm the Black Panthers in the 1970's. It is a term meant to disarm. To continue its use is to give credibility to that which does not exist, except to the left, and to endorse a concept that is antithetical to the Constitution and our liberty. "Collective rights" indeed, (spit)!

no expert
on guns...but i believe i have read many factual articles on how many lives are saved by gun owners! that is good enough for me! i dont own a
gun...but i believe america is better of by having many gun owners! the bad guys will get them anyway, so the good guys who own guns are
a must! hollywood finally got it right, sorta, with the movie "red dawn"! gun contol? no way!
a friend of mine ,from germany , said when hitler took over he promised complete safety...so they collected as many guns as they could.....then it was too late to fight hitler within the country it self!russia controlled the population by taking the guns away from the people! elvis

Uncke B
I quite agree with you sir, about any proposed legislation pertaining to the confiscation of American's firearms, would be just and legal cause for a Civil War. Why would any party wish to confiscate firearms, except to subdue the public with legislation, while they took over our Liberty and Freedom. As a famous American once said, "firearms are the very teeth of Liberty!"

Gun Rights and the Presidential race
I would trust John McCain And Rudy Giuliani with
gun rights as much as I would trust Hillary
Clinton. Don't forget that McCain stomped on
our Constitutional right of free speech in order
to silence the NRA, and that Giuliani brought
frivolous lawsuits against gun makers.
Huckabee is flaky on too many issues to be a viable candidate, which leaves only Fred Thompson
or,in a real pinch, Mitt Romney.
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