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Thursday, October 11, 2007
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
SCHIP: The Mad Hatter Matter
by Ken Blackwell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


In “Alice in Wonderland,” during the tea party, the Mad Hatter sat down to a beautiful white linen tablecloth. He proceeded to make a mess in front of himself, but instead of cleaning up, he just moved to another spot and made another mess. And so on down the table.

The other day, I realized that parable was applicable to the government-run State Children’s Health Insurance Program.

If Lewis Carroll were writing today, he might include members of Congress along with the fantastically unusual beings on the other end of the looking glass. Carroll’s narratives seem to peg the essence of big government. His characters certainly embody government run amok. They often worked mindlessly, creating messes that others had to clean up.

Congress’s free-spending majority is nudging the nation toward government-run universal health care. Its SCHIP expansion is a case in point.

Government has proven itself an inferior provider of health care coverage. Medicaid’s budget busting waste and poor quality of care are the prime examples. Still, liberals in Congress believe the best way to address the waste and inadequate care provided to many Americans of low income is to make the program a middle-class entitlement.

Most conservatives support helping the children of low-income families get health care. And because they support helping them, they opposed the current SCHIP bill that Congress passed and that President Bush vetoed.

This bill was not about helping children of low-income families. It was about growing state-controlled single-payer health care coverage and political gamesmanship. Such coverage will damage the health care system all children need.

Medicaid already provides free health care for children living in poverty. Most of those children are in families making less than $20,000 a year.

SCHIP applies to families making too much to qualify for Medicaid. Presently, most of the program’s recipients are in families making between $20,000 and $40,000 a year.

But, many recipients under the bill passed by Congress would be children in families making $60,000 or more.

That’s not a program to assist those of low income. That’s the expansion of middle-class reliance on government-controlled health care. It creates a new government entitlement.

Our nation’s concern for the poor should not be exploited for the purpose of government expansion.

Creating a new entitlement would hurt our economy, waste resources, reduce quality care, and deprive children of the health care they need. The question here is: Should the federal government provide free health care to middle-class families, transferring millions of children, now covered by private insurance, to a government plan funded by taxpayers? The answer is no.

The challenge is to change health care. The system is enormously expensive, and needs improvement. We need lower cost, more efficiency, and better options. The disagreement is on how to change it.

There are two approaches.

The private approach says we should move away from employer-provided health care to a system where individuals control their health care choices, carry their coverage with them if they change jobs or work at home, and that gives them the flexibility to choose the best provider for their needs.

This would reduce the cost of health care, so that more people of low income could afford coverage. Then, fewer people need SCHIP, and SCHIP could do more yet cost less.

The big-government approach would abolish private insurance. This approach would have citizens pay more taxes to the government, which then becomes the sole source of income for health care providers. The government would then have all the leverage needed to tell those working in health care what to do and how to do it.

Government-run systems waste countless of billions of dollars and take decisions away from patients and doctors, putting them in the hands of government bureaucrats. Medical careers then pay less and attract less-talented people. Lack of incentives hurt research and development of new medicines and techniques. And, lack of accountability means lower quality of care and fewer choices for patients. The whole system suffers.

The bill President Bush vetoed was a step in that direction. With SCHIP expansion into the middle class, government’s role increases. A critical mass of middle-class voters, dependent upon SCHIP for care, would demand broader coverage for more people. Within a generation, enough voters would be on it that popular support would be there for government-run health care. That’s the political game plan.

This could happen because the free health care comes right away. It takes more time to exhaust private resources, drive talented people from the health care field, and build an established bureaucratic mindset. Aside from immediate delays, the quality of care might be acceptable at first. But, after the system is federalized and becomes run down, it may be too late to reverse. Think Canada and Great Britain.

In the meantime, the ones who suffer the most are children of low-income families.

The thought of those children lacking good care is unacceptable. The original SCHIP was designed to help them. It should not be transformed into a middle-class entitlement that would eventually degrade our entire health care system. It must remain focused on helping children of low-income working families.

The last bill Congress passed failed to keep that focus. Congress must now pass a bill that does. The children are waiting … while the Mad Hatters of big government just keep moving.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Health care solution
It is incredibly easy to solve the health care crisis. Everyone must move to New Jersey (and I’m sure, most other places in the U.S.) and become a public parasite, i.e. a teacher, cop, etc. Bingo, not only do you quickly "earn" near, at or over $100,000.00 per year but as part of the plundering horde of over-pampered, overpaid, over-perked, over-pensioned leaches you receive free or nearly free health care for life with nearly total coverage from everything from a finger splinter to a heart transplant. And just think, I only pay $9,000.00 per year in property taxes on a modest three bedroom split to support these fine dedicated public "servants."

Health Care Solution
It is incredibly easy to solve the health care crisis. Everyone must move to New Jersey (and I’m sure, most other places in the U.S.) and become a public parasite, i.e. a teacher, cop, etc. Bingo, not only do you quickly "earn" near, at or over $100,000.00 per year but as part of the plundering horde of over-pampered, overpaid, over-perked, over-pensioned leaches you receive free or nearly free health care for life with nearly total coverage from everything from a finger splinter to a heart transplant. And just think, I only pay $9,000.00 per year in property taxes on a modest three bedroom split to support these fine dedicated public "servants."

How bad is it really?
< < Think Canada and Great Britain. > >

Yeah. Imagine:

http://www.euro.who.int/Document/E87954.pdf

Canada not perfect, but better than US
The surveys from Canada show an 80% preference for their healthcare system to ours, in spite of the wait times.

Their problem is not systemic, it is funding. If they'd increase their funding by just 10% (to 11% of GDP), they'd eliminate their wait times and still be less costly than our 16% of GDP. And 64% of US doctors support a single-payer system.

31% of our healthcare dollars are wasted on insurance industry bureaucracy. A Medicare-for-all system would allow that 31% to be spent on health care instead.

jlohman
Did you see Canada is sending their people to the U.S. because of the wait?
I often wonder what the founding fathers would thing of the congress who covers themselves with the best of everything, health care, better retirement, then these same people claim to be lowly public servants serving the people.

"All animals are equal, just some animals are more equal then others." Animal Farm.

US Heath care system
Conservatives selectively cite weaknesses in the public heathcare system to make an ideological arguement. The fact is that the current system is broken, but conservatives gloss over that. The employer support health care system is collasping costs are rising at a rate that is four times inflation. This is putting companies at a competitive disadvantage internationally, discouraging small business formation and placing many people at risk or in fear of losing their converage. This is also plenty of waste and fraud in the private sector system and the government does in directly fund that system throough employer tax deductions. Conservatives believe in free trade except of course when the consumer wants to reimport their drugs.

A single payer system is not socialism. Germany has a single payer private sector program that is working well.

Conservative simply cannot admit that their ideaology does not work in every circumstance and situation. Capitalism is a great system but it is not perfect and sometimes the government can do it better.


purplestater
http://www.euro.who.int/Document/E87954.pdf

"Now Canada is well served by a clear and extremely thorough description of its
health system in this monograph authored by Professor Gregory Marchildon, a
careful and thoughtful academic and former senior public servant."
A bureucrat examining a bureuracracy.

I will be reading the entire document but I must say ,Purplestater, that you need to research the sources before blathering about how wonderful this document is. The WHO information discussed in the preface is based not so much on quality of care but the "fairness" of care. In other words, everyone should be able to access the same crappy hospitals without regard to the ability to pay.
In case you have forgotten (or never learned), the work ethic of this country exists in order that the citizens can to afford to pay for the better things in life. Thus our system abolishes the "caste" system found elsewhere. You can be born at any strata of the economic ladder, but by the application of hard work and good decision making one can make it to the very top tier of wealth.
To berate someone for wanting a better life is to buy into the socialist/communist mindset of equality, but based on the Animal Farm version. "Some animals are more equal than others." Lest you disbelieve me, I suggest you look into what happened in Russia (aka the Soviet Union) during the first half of the 20th century. If you want me to read your document with an open mind, I suggest you do the same with your research into how wonderful governments micro-managing the citizens do it to the detriment of those being governed. You will NEVER find a politician or member of the royalty living as the average citizen does, no matter what the political system. And that is just another part of the issue that shows the resistance to national health care makes sense.

JMO51
The government does only two things better than private entities: make war and take the money of its citizens.

Too much insurance
is the problem, not lack of insurance. Has no one noticed that the 'health care crisis' began life with the (unconstitutional) intervention of the feds in what should be a transaction between consumer and provider? We didn't have a health care crisis in 1948, when I was born. But the fed's wage controls during the war led to employers providing health insurance to attract good labor.

Auto insurance can be bought with different degrees of coverage. The cheapest is to carry only liability, if you have a fender-bender you pay to fix it yourself, or drive the car with a dent. Imagine how your driving habits would change if your car insurance covered gasoline and oil changes. Think there's a possibility that your driving habits would change? Of course they would, and gas prices would rise accordingly.

Where do liberals get the ideas that 1) we have a "right " to health care (it's not in the Constitution) and 2) the health care industry is not affected by the same laws of supply and demand that affect every other business? Neither idea is valid.

Just as with education, the more the federal government tries to 'fix' the health care problem, the worse it gets. The solution to the 'crisis' is simple: read and follow the Constitution. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson were a lot smarter than Hillary and Nancy Pelosi will ever be.

The Biggest Loss
Blackwell writes: "But, after the system is federalized and becomes run down, it may be too late to reverse." Tell me please. Are the better doctors currently working at Veteran hospitals or in private practice? Why are the better doctors and better hospitals not government owned. A recently publish list of the best 100 hospitals didn't include the VA hospitals. Something terribly wrong with that list? Could that survey have been done by "conservatives" or was it done by the likes of Al Gore, Hillary, Reid, Pelosi, Soros, ..........? Free is not free. When will people learn? If the govmint were to assume health care, how long before the number of good health care people would quickly disappear?

The REAL beauty of the new SCHIP bill
is that it allows the Dem majority to beat the President over the head for "denying healthcare to the most needy of our citizens." No responsible president could have signed this thing, and Harry, Nancy & Co. knew it. This is political gamesmanship at its best/worst. Meanwhile, the kids who actually need help are held hostage. Adams and the other founders would be appalled.

GOP Provides Corporate Welfare
Without blinking an eye!! Save the Estate tax that benefits only those in the top 1% (Soros, Gates and Buffet all have signed on to keep the Estate Tax while the likes of Murdoch revile it), infuse $ into the markets to save Wall Street, fabricate facts to invade a Country that has resulted in hundreds of billions of $ in wasted money being handed out to GOP friends. $8B in TAX DOLLAR cash, on pallets no less, has just disappeared in Iraq!!

Iraq...Spending $3B a week in Iraq...Hundreds of billions of additional U.S. TAX dollars allocated to build infrastructure and healtchare...By end of year we'll have wasted nearly ONE TRILLION DOLLARS in Iraq...

All that is fine! But to give assistance to an American child that is one of 5 in a family with $60K in income, no way!!

Briansnotrhetoric is simply rhetoric
We can do comparisons of government waste all day long, but you won't like it. Welfare waste and fraud, Medicaid waste and fraud, Social Security waste and fraud all cost WAY more than the war on Iraq, yet you refuse to think about that. These are all prime examples of the Government give-a-ways and terrible policy that are bankrupting this country. Think about it. The US Government's job is to protect us from foreign foes, and keep us on an even keel with foreign trade.
Next time you to think, imagine going through a bureaucracy with the likes of the Post office to get a medical check-up. Think also how you can then be told that if you eat donuts you are living unhealthily and cannot be treated because you are living and eating right. Think also about being able to prove you do sufficient excersize to maintain a healthy lifestyle and are thereby not eligable for the healthcare you already pay for by way of forced taxes....
Think!

The basics
One of the fundamentals of economics is that any product or service that is subsidized increases in cost. The SCHIP is one example of this sort of subsidy which also includes medicare and medicaid. I would love to see a well-qualified person (Sowell/Williams?) do a study of medical costs with reference to the increasing role of "low-cost" government assisted health care. I suspect we would see a spike in costs after the onset of every such governmental intervention.

On the legal front, not one of these federal programs is legal. There is nothing in the Constitution to authorize any such programs on the part of the federal government. If the various states wish to establish such programs in spite of the economic problems, that is their perogative.

As others have mentioned, the best way to reduce medical care costs is to reduce the role of both government and insurance.


and another thing
The Estate Tax is in no way a benefit to the top 1%. How ignorant of you.
Imagine, if you will, that your parents die (god forbid) and leave you their farm. The farm is worth 200k. Now you think, well I'll just keep the farm and continue my father's legacy..... No Way! Government in the form of Estate Tax now wants you to pay them 120k for the right to keep the farm that your parents have already paid for, just because they want it more than you deserve it.... How is that fair?
Estate Tax is just one more way for the Federal Government to dip into your pocket to fund their pet projects to buy votes.
It's NOT THEIR MONEY!!!!

the ny city dogg
Why - for instance, should a son inherit millions tax free based merely on DNA? that is easy you soicialistic fool BECAUSE IT IS THE PARENTS MONEY TO DO WITH WHAT THEY WILL.

oh yeah and if you notice laser eye sugury has accually been going down in price because it is in most cases not covered by insurence thus these surgens have to find ways to keep the prices down while keeping the quality up.
Also i heard of a Doctor in Tennese who could price doctor visits as low as 40 dollars because he doesn't accpt insurence thus lowering his price because he does have to have a staff for insurence filing, and doesnt have to fight insurence companies to get paid. WE DONT NEED INSURENCE TO HAVE MEDICAL CARE and the cost of said medical care would be much cheaper if we only used insurence for emergancies such as broken bones or having fingers cut off instead of a sore throat or a strong cough.

Riddle Me This
Why, ALL OF A SUDDEN is the party of “Abortion on Demand” worried about the Health of Children that they would have no problem aborting for any reason whatsoever?

Buffet Signs on..
to the Estate Tax but has such a high opinion of how the government spends money that he has ensured that almost NONE of his fortune will go to the govt.

Remember, he gave away his fortune through charitable trusts.

But he is all for an Estate tax on YOUR estate.

chr3354
You are correct on estate tax. Why work your butt off to take care of your family when you're gone? Welcome to the Democrat party.

"Champions of mediocrity."


Gates
will give away his fortune too before he lets the gov't get his estate.

And Soros is a criminal looking for a safe harbor.

See the way the mega wealty do it
They "give" there money away to a charity they control, and then these same trusts pay their heirs VERY well so they can live as in the manner they have become accustomed too.

But if you only have 3 million it doesn't work so Gates, Buffet and friends don't really give a da*n about the estate tax.

The NY City Dogg
You asked why a, "slacker" should be allowed to inherit a ton of money, merely because of his DNA.

Here is a concept you need to wrap your mind around. It isn't your money. Nor is it mine. The real question is, why do you think "need" trumps everything else? If my neighbor does not have a car, and I have two, should he be given one of mine? In your world view, that would be just.

Most of us, when we were children would point to our friends and siblings, lamenting to our parents that, "He got more than me!". Apparently you, and those like you, never grew up. You are constantly bitching about who has too much and who has not enough, all the while forgetting, that none of it is yours.

Oh and for the record, Bill Gates has stated that his children will not get most of his fortune. That will go to his various foundations and charities. Am I angry about that? Not a bit. In fact, if Bill decided to leave his kids nothing, and give every dime to the government, I would be cool with it. And why? Because it is HIS money.

Here is what I suggest: when you one day become a millionaire, don't leave the money to your kids. That way, you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside when the government pisses the funds away on more meaningless feel good programs. And if some billionaire decides to leave his good for nothing slacker kid a huge check when he dies, just remember...It is none of your business.

freetothink
There are so many Canadian myths, that is just another over-bloated one. In a survey of 18,000 Canadians, only 20 -- TWENTY -- had ever come to the US for healthcare.

See http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php

Besides, Canadians coming to the US would never happen if, as I said above, they properly funded their system with a 10% increase in funding.

Our problem is much greater than funding, it is systemic. Increasing the funding would only put more funds into the pockets of the insurance industry.

Regretfully,
My two adult children are so busy with jobs, school and children, they seldom read in depth about the news. Therefore like too many others, they catch the headlines of the driveby media who support the left agenda. Headlines right now are about the cruelty of republicans in being against a program for poor CHILDREN. This is how politics is run nowadays. Get a bumper sticker slogan that defames the other party and run with it.

health care
if you were to ask your local hospital administrator, how much money, percentage wise, does medicare/ medicade bring into the hospital? their answer would be somewhere between 40-60%. that is a national average. that is socialized medicine folks. we are half way there already. i acknowledge that there is fraud and waste in the medicare system and it needs to be corrected. fine.
we need to start thinking of the greater good for all aspects of society. we just had an increase here in michigan of state tax of .7%. i will pay it happily and do my part. i am paying for the sins of past poor government, but what are the real alternatives? less cops on the streets? less fire fighters and first responders? we still have a smaller state tax than half of the other states in the country.

yes, canada and other socialized health care countries have problems. but does that mean that we need to repeat those mistakes if we make our own uniquely american health care system? of course not!! if you like paying for your own health care and want to see your own doctor, don't participate. we can do that. we can do anything. we are starting with a blank slate, not with the canadian system.

how screwed up are we as a whole if we are willing to devote 190 billion dollars to iraq this year, but not enough money to help out american families and children? there were 72 votes in the senate for theschip program. that is bipartisanship. let's hope that anyone who is for this veto, never has to face the challenges of a sick child who needs care, and cannot afford it.

could someone answer me this question: companies like gm, chrysler, magna corp, lear, all say that health care costs are their biggest financial drains on their bottom line. wouldn't aleviating this burden from them be a great thing for business? just wondering


i also wonder
because so many of the posts here are concerned with bill gates and soros, ect... how many of you here fall into the category of having estates or will inherit estate of more that 5 million dollars?
why are so concerned with multibillion-airs estates?
how about what is happening to the person who earns 45,000-70,000?
are you able to afford college, weddings, savings, retirement, ect on 45k a year? of course not.

Hospitals and Medicare
There is no legal obligation for for-profit hospitals to take Medicare patients. Why do they do it? Because Medicare is not as bad as they want you to believe. If they let on to that, they would have to stop asking for more.

ronsch and jlohman
i am grateful for your comments

Bah HUMBUG
Just another DEM ploy before the elections get here. If you have any brains at all which by some of your comments that is very hard to accept., this is all about politics not about taking care of the poor chiuldren. There is a reason that this is for poor children not for able adults. This is the way the DUMBOCRAPS get the people riled up before elections. Look how they pressed Michael J Fox and his illness before the 06 Elections. Boy you sure dont hear nothing about him now do you? This is just another ploy to make the American People feel guilty. My brother in Law is Canadian and he moved to America because with the Medical set up in Canada he had to wait 6 Months for an MRI boy I can just see the American people and the ACLU suing everyone in the MEDICAL field because thaT WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE. When you create this UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE there will be lines out the doors and mark my word the People will not be happy. Boy MR 2 AMericas (EDWARDS) will be back to Ambulance chasing and making big BUCKS again. Nice try DUMBOCRAPS but we are watching UUUUUUUU.

What, then?
Yes, what Ronsch said...

What would those of you against any sort of government help for lower-middle-class families with healthcare costs... what would you have people do, then? People like the Frost family, who live on less than $50k/year in a family of four, who are too "rich" to qualify for Medicaid, but who either get rejected from private insurance companies or are quoted prices that amount to half their income? So they have a house they bought in 1990, and some equity. Do they have to sell it, really? Does a family have to be dirt poor and bankrupt before taxpayer money can help them?

Like it or not, and no matter what you believe the cause is, healthcare and health insurance costs are out of control in this country. Let's say we DID all move to a private, non-employment-based, HSA-centered system. What should happen to those people, then? If profit-driven insurance companies are still allowed to routinely deny any pain to their bottom line (which means denying the services we pay them for), are sick people too "rich" for Medicaid just supposed to bankrupt themselves?

I would be all for a fully-private, non-employment-based system, if I believed insurance companies would be held accountable, and if I believed that insurance would magically become affordable for everyone. Just ask a self-employed person with, say, diabetes what he pays for a high-deductible individual policy. You really think those prices would just come on down? Riiiiight.

chuck
mike j fox was attacked by rush oxycotin about "faking" his illness.
how about attempting spell check before you post.

Selmo
Selmo,
It's 'OxyContin' not 'oxycotin'. And, it's 'Michael J. Fox', not 'Mike J. Fox'.
Good article by Mr. Blackwell. Le'Chaim.

The Actual Subject is History
"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."

The USSR, and other Communist countries, tried the socialist/communist method. How many times does it take to prove it doesn't work?

Part of the problem with the US medical system is that it too in going down the path to a socialistic system.

Canada has long wait times. That is the truth. It is going to get worse in Canada. The US costs are high; but see the above paragraph.

The US government needs completely out of the medical system. I include in that statement: Medicare, Medicaid, and any monetary control whatsoever.

Please spare me the comments that I am a "mean-spirited" person. But look at the past.

From 1790 thru 1900, none of the problems were occuring in the US medical system that are happening now. However, during this time the US government had nothing to do with the US medical system. Levels of professional knowledge, rates, etc. were regulated by the states and the local governments.


yep
i stand corrected.

Selmo
if you like paying for your own health care and want to see your own doctor, don't participate
========================
So if I want to self insure I don't need to contribute to the government run healthcare? I think many here would like that.

Of course I don't think that is what you mean't.

I am Australian and the Australian system is not as restrictive as the Canadian system, but the wait for government funded treatment is just as bad. So bad that the government is moving away from the socialized medicine model to an insurance based model.

You say we can "make our own uniquely american health care system" which is what we have today. It is a mix of government and private insurance and it has our own uniquely american problems.

Moving further towards a socialized system will not fix the problems.

How to catch wild pigs:
To catch wild pigs:

First clear a patch of ground in the forest. Every day spread some corn in the cleared patch.

When the wild pigs get comfortable eating the corn in the cleared patch, build a straight fence on one side of the cleared patch.

When the pigs become comfortable with the straight fence, build a second fence connecting to the first fence around the edge of the cleared patch.

Don't forget to keep putting corn on the ground every day!

When the pigs become comfortable with the two parts of the fence and the corn, build a third side of fence connected to the first two sides.

When the pigs are comfortable with the three-sided fence, build a fourth side with a gate, connected to the other three sides. Leave the gate open, and be sure to put corn on the ground every day.

When the pigs become comfortable going in the gate to eat the corn and coming back out of the gate to the rest of the forest, come by one day while the pigs are eating the corn and close the gate. You have caught the wild pigs.

If you don't understand the analogy you are not a conservative.

skittles
keeping our health care system the way it is now won't solve the problems either. if we do make our own unique health care system, it won't be what we have today. we would strive to make it the best in the world, not average are below average.
just because your country can't get it right, doesn't mean ours can't. we also have many more people who would participate in the system than yours.
moving more towards privitization won't fix our problems either. we have tried that, with the results being what we have today .
if you wanted to keep your private insurance, you could. but you would still have to invest in your country and it citizens.

JLohman
Proof please - show us links to the surveys. No offense but unless I can see your sources - I will consider this an opinion and not fact.

Many of my extended family (20+) lives in Canada and most of them despise the Canadian healthcare system.

Folks
We pay far too much and get too little now. What some of you call socialism is really smart economics and cooperation.

Josey Wales
"Many of my extended family (20+) lives in Canada and most of them despise the Canadian healthcare system."

Ahh would they trade it for ours or someone elses? Have you tried to find a citizen of an industrialised country who would trade theirs for ours even if unhappy with theirs

Ronsch
What quality of life standards are you useing to say that the Scandinavian countries are better off then ours.

and socialism doesnt work i believe that orwell said it best "socialism will never work because the working class smells". and your right on paper socialism and communism are different but only in severity socialism is just a milder form of communism.

the reason why there are wait times in countries with socialism medicine is because people are trying to get medical care they don't need becasue they dont have to pay for it they can get every little ache and pain looked at.

But in fact waiting times are becoming more prevalent even here in the U.S. When I needed an MRI a year ago I had to wait for six weeks. More and more people are going to realize that our system isn't working either.


so your solution is to fix a broken system with another broken system. and about this MRI wait didnt you schedule it at the earliest convenient time, in canada you dont make an appointment that works for you they tell you when it might be avaiable and you have to hope you can make it.

Well, Gray Ghost--

"From 1790 thru 1900, none of the problems were occuring in the US medical system that are happening now. However, during this time the US government had nothing to do with the US medical system."

If, indeed, the "actual subject is history", maybe you should point out that 1790 thru 1900 was the era of the two minute amputation capped off with a red hot iron applied to cauterize the stump and usually done without the benefit of anesthesia.

So by extension, your solution to the current health care crisis would be what? More barbers with bigger leeches?

chr3354
"so your solution is to fix a broken system with another broken system..."

A better question is do you want to replace our collapsing system with one that works? The answer is obvious

Dewey Kneadleeders
"So by extension, your solution to the current health care crisis would be what? More barbers with bigger leeches? "

That is EXACTLY what his solution would be LOL

hal
We pay far too much and get too little now. What some of you call socialism is really smart economics and cooperation.

we pay to much because of goverment involvment.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/printpage/?url=http://www. realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/10/medical_competition_ works_for.html
this article shows how competition can be used to keep cost down in medical care.

just remmeber folks insurence should only be used for unexpected expenses just imagine how much car insurence would cost if we used it to pay for oil changes and tire rotations. and 40 years ago no one needed insurence to pay for medical bills why now.

Selmo
I wasn't proposing keeping the system unchanged.

My opinion is that the current system is overburdened with government regulation at every level. Changing who mails the check to the doctor will not change much.

What is needed is:

1. Tax reform to level the playing field between employer and non-employer based insurance.

2. Move towards an HSA / Catastrophic insurance model, while retaining the availability of comprehensive insurance.

3. Federally controlled lisencing of MDs to weed out incompetent doctors - so they can't move around from state to state.

4. Tort reform.

5. Malpractice insurance reform

6. Foster reciprocity provisions so that insurance companies in Delaware can compete with companies in Florida for patients in Texas.

7. Allow for any self identifying groups to negotiate premiums with insurance companies - Churches, MADD, professional organisations.

8. Legislate that lawmakers lifetime medical needs can only be provided by VA/Medicare while they exist. The poor can't opt out.

9. Remove artificial limits on Med School positions.

10. Seperate the selling arm of insurance company from the claims arm.

11. Limit the factors that can be considered in determining premiums to age, general health, and lifestyle choices.

This is just a start, but there are lots of reasons why the current system has its own unique problems.

hal
yeah as long as it is a free market fix i am all for it.

chr3354
"just remmeber folks insurence should only be used for unexpected expenses just imagine how much car insurence would cost if we used it to pay for oil changes and tire rotations. and 40 years ago no one needed insurence to pay for medical bills why now."

40 years ago people were covered through their employment and had reliable medical care. Now few are covered through their employment and the cost of medicine is extremely high if uninsured. My insurance will pay say 300 but if you self pay you will pay over a thousand. Cancer will really be unexpected expenses and your assets will be gone if you have no insurance. Soon I the taxpayer will be paying for your treatment. Walmart's strategy for a long time was we pay for their employees coverage because most were on some type of state assistance.

chr3354
"yeah as long as it is a free market fix i am all for it. "

What is a "free" market fix that works? 40 years ago the doctor's union the AMA had a strangle hold on doctor supply.

Hal
What do you think is going to happen to the cost of healthcare when the gov't takes over. It'll be great at first, but when people start going to the doctor for every little sniffle and ache and pain because it's free watch what happens. Your medical coverage tax will overtake your income tax withholding and care will be rationed regardless of how sick you are.

Universal healthcare will crush the middle class in taxes.

elong
"What do you think is going to happen to the cost of healthcare when the gov't takes over. It'll be great at first, but when people start going to the doctor for every little sniffle and ache and pain because it's free watch what happens."

I don't think it should be "free" but right now that is exactly what is happening it is "free" for many. Remember Bush saying just go to the ER? They do that now... Guess who pays for most of those visits?

" Your medical coverage tax will overtake your income tax withholding and care will be rationed regardless of how sick you are."

Care is rationed now. It always has been. The question is not if it is rationed it is how.

"Universal healthcare will crush the middle class in taxes. "

Versus now they are being crushed under insurmontable medical debt

Health care
Many hospitals and health care plans in Ca are closing because they cannot keep up with the cost of the free care they give to illegals. Hillary wants universal health plan so illegals are covered. Stop the illegals and clean up the corrupt med health plans. If they didn't have so much power with politicians it would have already happened. It soon won't matter because Hillary/Bush/Kennedy/Reid will get their amnesty and NAU thru and they will be sitting in their lavish homes on the hill looking down on povery just as the leaders of Mexico and India do. They are both rich countries and could afford to supply their people with jobs that would support their family but they won't.And that is what Hillary is pushing for. So when we are overrun with illegals and no jobs and living 16 to a house like the illegals and no decent health care thank Hillary for it.

Hal / elong
Hal
Have you tried to find a citizen of an industrialised country who would trade theirs for ours even if unhappy with theirs
============
How about Belinda Stronach.
How about Me, I am Australian.

How many do you need?
Or should I only ask those who DON'T want the US system?




elong
It'll be great at first, but when people start going to the doctor for every little sniffle and ache and pain because it's free watch what happens. Your medical coverage tax will overtake your income tax withholding and care will be rationed regardless of how sick you are.
=============
Exactly how it developed in Australia.

Belinda Stronach
Promotes equal access for all, except her.

freetothink
"All animals are equal, just some animals are more equal then others." Animal Farm.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/2007091 4/belinda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=Health

Myke
"Many hospitals and health care plans in Ca are closing because they cannot keep up with the cost of the free care they give to illegals. "

Not just illegals uninsured too because 99% cannot pay massive healthcare bills and do not

"Hillary wants universal health plan so illegals are covered."

Not true at all but do you want citizens turned away or not treated in the ER because they cannot prove they are citizens? If you don't have that then the hospitals wind up paying the bills for illegals. Illegals are not a medical problem. This is just another Bush failure we must fix. Hillary didn't cause the problem but she will fix it. Stop employers from hiring illegals the problem goes away

skiddles
I said I did not find but I only know the German, English and French systems. I have government heqalthcare so it isn't a problem for me

skiddles
That's like the fourth time I've seen the Animal Farm quote today.

Is your son/daughter reading it in English class or something. it's a great quote. I just wanted to give someone a hard time about it.

Hal
Actually, you asked a question, which I quoted.

But more to the point, I would be totally OK with government run medicine so long as I don't have to contribute to the system.

If Hillary wants to set the government up in competition to the private insurers and NOT fund it with taxes, I am OK with that. Let the government charge a premium for coverage and compete. I would even go as far as saying that anyone below the poverty line could get covered at the same premium rate out of taxes up to a reasonable maximum of say $1 billion a year.

Hal
elong-"Universal healthcare will crush the middle class in taxes. "

hal- "Versus now they are being crushed under insurmontable medical debt"

I'm not talking about the folks in the middle class that actually does go bankrupt as a result of medical costs (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and is a brutal situation). I'm talking about THE MIDDLE CLASS. The whole shootin' match. The whole nine yards. The whole meguila. So long as everyone's in the same boat it's ok by you?

my lifelong Republican parents...
... are now bankrupt.

< < Why are so many families being driven into bankruptcy because of medical problems? 50% of all bankruptcies are due to families with medical problems.

I am totally mystified with conservatives who doen't seem to care about the bankruptcies. > >

Last year my father had a stroke. He almost never drank. He never smoked. He carefully watched his diet (he was at his ideal body weight). He did all the right things.

And he was still jogging ten miles a week in the days before he had a devastating stroke at the age of 71. His mind is nearly completely intact, but he can hardly move his entire left side.

Now both my parents' pensions and their Social Security is sucked away to pay for the long-term care he requires (home care, which we would prefer, is even more expensive than convalescent care).

My father is in a nice facility, but my mother is now living on about a thousand dollars a month.

In Germany, they would have this care for free (in a good facility). In Canada, it would cost a few thousand dollars a year instead of $5000 per month (also in a good facility). In Canada they pay $3500 per capita for health care; in the US we pay $7000 per capita. For what?

Our system is broken, but most people don't realize just how broken it is until it's too late. We can discuss and argue how to fix it, but you have to first acknowledge that it is seriously broken.

Here's the scary part: It *can* happen to you.


purple
You make too much sence.

skiddles
"But more to the point, I would be totally OK with government run medicine so long as I don't have to contribute to the system."

You pay now for government healthcare you will probably pay then but a lot less

"If Hillary wants to set the government up in competition to the private insurers and NOT fund it with taxes, I am OK with that."

The private insurers are living off government money now

"Let the government charge a premium for coverage and compete. I would even go as far as saying that anyone below the poverty line could get covered at the same premium rate out of taxes up to a reasonable maximum of say $1 billion a year. "

Oh no not the insurer of last resort I want seperate system to compete and if insurance companies play they accept risk which they no longer do now

Blathering?
< < I will be reading the entire document but I must say ,Purplestater, that you need to research the sources before blathering about how wonderful this document is. > >

I wrote ONE LINE and provided a link. How is that "blathering"?

People go on and on and on about the Canada's federal health care system, but few no any details. Hence, the document (which mentions criticisms, too).

elong writes:
Is your son/daughter reading it in English class or something. it's a great quote. I just wanted to give someone a hard time about it.
===

No, my oldest is 3. freetothink was quoting it earlier, and it seemed to fit for Stronach.

hal
the american system is the best in the world just look at the survival rates for various forms of cancer here compaired to gremany, france, the uk, and canada. It is much higher here.

my idea of change for the current system is to take use off these insurence turned healthcare payment plans. free market soluitons always trump govement solutions just look at cosmetic sugery at how the price of that has gone down.

elong
"I'm not talking about the folks in the middle class that actually does go bankrupt as a result of medical costs (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and is a brutal situation)."

I guess you are missing the point here that will be everyone in the middle class who has no insurance as we age we are one medical emergency away from
I'm talking about THE MIDDLE CLASS. The whole shootin' match. The whole nine yards. The whole meguila. So long as everyone's in the same boat it's ok by you?


purplestater
Thank you you said it far better than I ever could

purplestater
with new advance in medical care he could have had caught the warning sighs of a stroke with a few simple ultra sound tests and proably prevented the whole thing.

the question is why should i pay to bail your parents out?

chr3354
"the american system is the best in the world just look at the survival rates for various forms of cancer here compaired to gremany, france, the uk, and canada. It is much higher here."

Cherry pick away but know our medical system is in collapse

"free market soluitons always trump govement solutions just look at cosmetic sugery at how the price of that has gone down."

Cheaper still in Beunos Aires is cheaper and I hear better yet. But nonsense, free markets would not have one WWII, built the transcontinental railroad or put a man on the moon. You say free market like it is a talisman it isn't

chr3354
"the question is why should i pay to bail your parents out? "

Are you willing to throw him on the street? Are you willing to remove medical care so he dies?

SCHIP and you "conservatives" are nuts
Despite bipartisan support for the expansion of this program. Sen. Grassley would not be called a lib on this site. I see that you right wing whacko's continue to spew on the Frost family and anyone, dem or gop affiliated, with whom you disagree. Most of the time, it's not even issues based. You all are just going off the deep end. Must be that you see the end in sight. You (the GOP and those who live in "radio fantasy land) had 6 yrs to prove you could govern. How'd that work for us? Not very well as every single opinion poll shows. So since you cant govern, Dont have Bill to smack around much, and have a motley crew to pick for 2008, it;s no wonder that you all continue to spew Coulter/Orally/Limbaugh garbage. You've got nothing left in the arsenal. Ah well, it was good while it lasted. Maybe in 2024 you'll get a shot at one of the branches of government. By the way, for you all down below the mason dixon,, which is most of you...... there are 3 THREE branches of government. Go to a library and do some research. King George is only an illusion.

elong
Ignore HalD. He is nothing but a liberal troll.

HalD: Where are the concentration camps in the US? When did Teddy Roosevelt protest WW1 and give the quote?

He also showed his true colors on his 3:50pm post: "This is just another Bush failure we must fix. Hillary didn't cause the problem but she will fix it."

Just like she fixed it in the first 2 terms of the Clintons!?!

Who deserves taxpayer help?
fotini901 asks: Does a family have to be dirt poor and bankrupt before taxpayer money can help them?

Why not, considering that dirt poor and bankrupt families are paying taxes? You asked about the Frost family: $50K/year for four and some equity in a house. You want taxpayer money to help them with medical expenses, even though that money comes in part from families of six living on $35K/year in an apartment?

How would you explain to Mr. and Mrs. Smith -- who don't own a home and who have more kids and less income than the Frosts -- that their taxes are going up because it wouldn't be fair to ask the Frosts to take care of themselves?

Hal
Oh no not the insurer of last resort I want seperate system to compete and if insurance companies play they accept risk which they no longer do now
==========
From my earlier post.

10. Seperate the selling arm of insurance company from the claims arm.
11. Limit the factors that can be considered in determining premiums to age, general health, and lifestyle choices.
========
These types of provisions would make insurance companies compete for your premiums and limit their ability to drop high-risk policy holders.

It forces InsCos to pool risk, not look at each policy holder as P&L statement.


hal
I'm not missing the point. You seem to think it's ok to raise the taxes necessary to keep up with a gov't run health program because everyone will be in the same boat. Middle class folks will be broken by the taxes it will take to run this thing by our ever efficient federal gov't.

That's ok with the dems because that just means that they'll have a little more control of our lives.

It'll be the equivalent of a burgular coming into your home and taking half of everything you own while you're in the house! Then they'll tell you that it's ok because they did the same thing to everyone else in the neighborhood.

Gray Ghost
Hi little man

Dewey Kneadleeders 2:53pm
That was a pretty good answer, if you want to be sarcastic.

Technology changes. You know that. The answer is the system. With more Federal Government rules and regulations, entitlements, and bureaucrats (like Hal D.), the system "bogs" down. Costs and waiting time rise.

Let the States and local governments control this, with the Feds perhaps giving "levels of performance" regulations.

Hal D 4:38pm
One USAF general (ret.) and two USAF cols. (ret.) told me to tell you to GTH. They all 3 said you were a paddlefoot of the highest order.

The 3 of them have a combined: 2 silver stars, 3 bronze stars (1 with cluster), and 2 purple hearts. I will believe them not you.

Grumpy
"How would you explain to Mr. and Mrs. Smith -- who don't own a home and who have more kids and less income than the Frosts -- that their taxes are going up because it wouldn't be fair to ask the Frosts to take care of themselves? "

Because they cannot do so and Mr. and Mrs. Smith pay taxes too. We are all in this together and we help each other and watch each others backs. Like the greatest generation did, like our frontier ancestors did

skiddles
writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 4:35 PM

That could work and isn't that close to the German system?

Gray Ghost
liar LMAO They would have the courage to use their names and tell me themselves little guy

HalD
HalD: Where are the concentration camps in the US? When did Teddy Roosevelt protest WW1 and give the quote?

HalD
Name the place and time. Who are your seconds?

elong
"I'm not missing the point. You seem to think it's ok to raise the taxes necessary to keep up with a gov't run health program because everyone will be in the same boat. Middle class folks will be broken by the taxes it will take to run this thing by our ever efficient federal gov't."

Actually no I don't. Right now we pay orders of magnitude more for healthcare which produces far less. It is about saving money andf being more efficient something fundamentalist conservatives would not recognise. I want a better system staying the course is consuming too much

"That's ok with the dems because that just means that they'll have a little more control of our lives."

Not true and it isn't them who want into our bedrooms




Further HalD
The choice of weapons is yours.

Hal
For crying out loud. The greatest generation and frontier ancestors? Are you kidding me? You're right they watched EACH OTHER'S BACK. Guess what they did it because it was the neighborly thing to do. They didn't do it because the federal gov't made them do it.

Do you not understand the concept of gov't coersion (sp?)?

And another thing. Guess who they took care of first before they watched their neighbor's back? They took care of their own! It's called self-determination. MY family comes first. After I do that, then I can be the good neighbor.

Hal - That could work
I don't know much about the German system other than the German (and Japanese) baby boom is about fifteen to twenty years behind the Allies.

There baby boomer Tsunami is probaby 15 years away so I would not look to them as an example due to the differences in demographics.

My point is that we know what lies in the socialized medicine direction. We know our current system is sinking. We need look at our current system and figure out what is going to improve the system as a whole. It is not just a matter of "InsCos bad! Gov't good!" It will take a nuanced solution.


No Hal
The dems don't want into our bedrooms. They want to control our behavior through the redistribution of wealth. The more they take of what I EARN the more they can manipulate my behavior. They're just as guilty as the morons that pushed through the national ID legislation.

You see Hal,I don't believe in blind loyalty. I call 'em as I see 'em. It doesn't matter who steals my freedom. The parties just have different ways of going about it.

elong
"... They didn't do it because the federal gov't made them do it.

Do you not understand the concept of gov't coersion (sp?)?"

WWII yes the Feds, the frontier not so much but local government sure did. Oh yes they control the means of violence they make the rules

"And another thing. Guess who they took care of first before they watched their neighbor's back? They took care of their own! It's called self-determination. MY family comes first. After I do that, then I can be the good neighbor. "

Often times taking care of your family meant helping your neighbor first i.e. joining the military. The lone wolf has never successfully existed for at least the last 2,000 years

HalD
Do you have the g*ts?

skiddles
You are now one grey ghost's enemy list sorry about that.

"My point is that we know what lies in the socialized medicine direction. We know our current system is sinking. We need look at our current system and figure out what is going to improve the system as a whole. It is not just a matter of "InsCos bad! Gov't good!" It will take a nuanced solution."

We agree completely 100%. Now let's get moving on changing the darn thing...

elong
"The dems don't want into our bedrooms. They want to control our behavior through the redistribution of wealth. The more they take of what I EARN the more they can manipulate my behavior. They're just as guilty as the morons that pushed through the national ID legislation."

Well as I see it unles you are a naturalized citizen you owe this country for educating you, for making sure you are healthy, for making sure you were free from crime and invaders. Shall I go on? I have been incredibly lucky in life and I tell you what - I owe the community that raised me and I owe futuer generations.

"You see Hal,I don't believe in blind loyalty. I call 'em as I see 'em. It doesn't matter who steals my freedom. The parties just have different ways of going about it."

Same here if you had not noticed

Hal
We agree on ONE thing. The gov't is there to keep me safe from crime and invaders. I gladly pay my fair share of taxes for this.

But unless your family didn't pay property taxes, there's no such thing as a free education! NOTHING IS FREE! My dad busted his butt to pay property taxes and every other tax. Not free. I owe the gov't NOTHING for keeping me healthy. Nothing. My parents did a fine job of that with no help from the gov't.

And as I see it, luck had nothing to do with it. My father busted his a-- to give me the opportunity to have a better life than he did. I took this opportunty to bust my butt and get to where I am. This isn't a lottery Hal. It's life. Luck's got nothing to do with it.


Hal
"Often times taking care of your family meant helping your neighbor first i.e. joining the military. The lone wolf has never successfully existed for at least the last 2,000 years"

Now you're gonna play semantics? Huh? I'm talking about being a lone wolf here. The only way you can be a good neighbor is by taking care of your world first. By doing so you will never be a burden on anyone else's family. In turn, you can then help those around you. Everyone benefits. See that....no gov't intervention.

skiddles
You are not on my enemy list.

Really, neither is HalD. He is just a g*tless wonder of a Paddlefoot. He is no more important to me than a piece of manure in a cow field.

If I were you I would really ignore HalD. He is just a Liberal Troll, who couldn't make it in the USAF and is now trying to use his bureaucratic time in the service to endow his "illusions of grandeur".

He is not a professional (i.e., doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect, etc.); but he will use today's liberal talking points to push the Left's agenda. He doesn't even understand the difference any more between "being neighborly" and the Federal Government forcing something down our throats.

elong
"Now you're gonna play semantics? Huh? I'm talking about being a lone wolf here. The only way you can be a good neighbor is by taking care of your world first. By doing so you will never be a burden on anyone else's family. In turn, you can then help those around you. Everyone benefits. See that....no gov't intervention."

See THAT last bit "By doing so you will never be a burden on anyone else's family. In turn, you can then help those around you. " is a PERFECT definition of government and how it works. The you can help is the basis of government.

no play was meant honestly.

elong
"But unless your family didn't pay property taxes, there's no such thing as a free education! NOTHING IS FREE! My dad busted his butt to pay property taxes and every other tax. Not free. I owe the gov't NOTHING for keeping me healthy. Nothing. My parents did a fine job of that with no help from the gov't."

You underestimate your independence. A safe food supply? Safe water? Your parents taxes didn't pay enough to educate you unless they had a very large estate all the childless and old also paid to educate you.

"And as I see it, luck had nothing to do with it. My father busted his a-- to give me the opportunity to have a better life than he did. I took this opportunty to bust my butt and get to where I am. This isn't a lottery Hal. It's life. Luck's got nothing to do with it. "

Sir that last statement needs a real look. No divine spirit helped, no chance helped? Me? I know luck, fate or god plays a part far better men than I are dead simply due to fate. I busted and I was lucky too anmd yes the harder I worked the luckier I got. But that just maybe due to the fact I was an aviator... who knows

Hal
That is not the definition of gov't and how it works. You've lost your mind. That "last bit" is how community works. Not gov't. There's a difference. And once again it boils down to one thing. Free choice vs. gov't coercion.

I'd love to keep doing this for another few hours, but my baby and wife probably would like me to leave work at a decent hour. Thanks for the debate Hal.

You're still lost your mind.

HalD
Accept the challenge or withdraw the "liar LMAO".

Gray Ghost
Ok OK I have to ask is that paddlefoot term a bomber or transport thing? I never ever heard it before LMAO

HalD 5:51pm
The USAF has pilots. The Navy has aviators. Which are you now?

Gray Ghost @ 4:40 PM

"Let the States and local governments control this, with the Feds perhaps giving "levels of performance" regulations."

So GG, let me get this straight-- you want our medical system to emulate our crackerjack public education system? That'd be super!

Just please tell me we can call the federal component "No Surgical Instruments Left Behind".

HalD 5:54pm
Accept the challenge or withdraw the "liar LMAO".

The term "paddlefoot" has been in the USAF since before it was the USAF, back when it was the Army Air Corps.

elong
LMAO enjoy and be well - these are the good times

Gray Ghost
"Accept the challenge or withdraw the "liar LMAO". "

LMAO no way child you are not worth wearing cheap nickel or plastic jewelry LOL geesh

Our faith
may put us in a position to succeed, but it is still free choice. God doesn't "allow" some to succeed and others not to.

And there is a difference between fate and luck. Like I said, if I were lucky I'd win the lottery.

"Your parents taxes didn't pay enough to educate you unless they had a very large estate all the childless and old also paid to educate you."

So because they didn't pay enough to educate me with their tax dollars, somehow that translates to free. I'll let my parents know. They'll be interested to here that.

Oh and that bit about water and food. Good point. Technically, that comes with protecting me from crime. You said the gov't kept me healthy. Sorry, parents job still.
I gladly pay taxes for clean water. Every month. See gov't does have a role.

Negative DK 5:56pm
I want the Feds out of both systems, educational and medical. Before the Feds started really controlling the public schools (pre 1970), they were the envy of the world (perhaps not the best, but in the Top 10).

More Federal programs and control in both systems has done nothing but mess them up.

By the way, the crack "No Surgical...." was pretty funny. Sarcastic but funny.

HalD
So you are a g*tless wonder of a Paddlefoot. I told one of my 3 friends this by telephone just a few minutes ago. He agreed you would not accept. He also said you would not act as a man and withdraw the "liar LMAO" remark.

By the way, I know plenty of places outside the USA where this can be handled.

Why America can't have single-payer
Single-payer has the same problem today that it had the last 10,000 times somebody suggested it:

In America, we already have a drastically UNEQUAL system of health care. Some folks have no health insurance whereas other folks have generous health care plans from their employers. The most generous (and expensive) health care plans offer such additions as acupuncture, psychological counseling, and even membership in health clubs.

And the "haves" like what they have and don't want to give up any part of their existing coverage to help the "have-nots."

Single-payer would establish a uniform national standard of what is and is not covered by the policy. It's inconceivable that we're going to give every American a Government-provided membership in a health club or Government-paid acupuncture.

So what that means is that those with generous health care plans now will have to accept less generous coverage under single payer.

I have REPEATEDLY asked the advocates of single-payer if they can guarantee that those with generous private plans today won't see any reductions in their coverage if they are moved to single-payer. They can't guarantee that, because they know it won't happen.

America doesn't do leveling. Our values are that we don't want to restrict our freedom to mandate forced leveling.

elong
"So because they didn't pay enough to educate me with their tax dollars, somehow that translates to free. I'll let my parents know. They'll be interested to here that."

Like it or not you are part of a community. Accept the responsibility or not - that says a lot about you as a person

"Oh and that bit about water and food. Good point. Technically, that comes with protecting me from crime. You said the gov't kept me healthy. Sorry, parents job still.
I gladly pay taxes for clean water. Every month. See gov't does have a role. "

If you some how really believe what you say may I suggest that you move to several third world countries where that situation really does exist?


Gray Ghost "liar LMAO"
"So you are a g*tless wonder of a Paddlefoot. I told one of my 3 friends this by telephone just a few minutes ago. He agreed you would not accept. He also said you would not act as a man and withdraw the "liar LMAO" remark.

By the way, I know plenty of places outside the USA where this can be handled."

First I would never honor you by combat and if I wanted you dead I would just slit your throat but you dear are an idiot and must be treated as such - be careful those guys with the tasers and nets are for you

Gray Ghost "Liar LMAO"
BOO!

HalD
"We are all in this together and we help each other and watch each others backs." Who's got my back, Hal? I've got the backs of illegals, sub-prime bozos, pork loving congress critters, animals who spend decades on death row, schools that don't teach, etc., etc., etc., but who's got my back? It ain't the Frosts, that's for sure.

So much for all being in this together...

Gray Ghost
Did Bert P ever make it over to your blog, do you suppose? Its hardly unheard of for the pros to cruise amateur sites for ideas. Some of the posters on TH come up with some clever stuff.

Grumpy
" It ain't the Frosts, that's for sure."

Reality is a terrible thing perhaps a sibling or child can hold your hand as reality sinks in? The Frosts are real

Are you real, HalD?
I didn't say the Frosts weren't "real" (whatever you mean by that). I said they didn't have my back in the sense you want me to have theirs.

Is there a particular reason you're being snotty to me, by the way?

Folks
I Suggest you are right. It is a very good time to hide.

Are you real, HalD?
I didn't say the Frosts weren't "real" (whatever you mean by that). I said they didn't have my back in the sense you want me to have theirs.

Is there a particular reason you're being snotty to me, by the way?

thought most of you won't understand
Life is too short for drama and petty things,
so Kiss slowly, Laugh insanely,
Love truly, and Forgive quickly.

Name the Time HalD
Since you said "slit my throat", obviously you have THREATENED to do this in a non-gentleman fashion. The weapon you selected was knives, via the "slit my throat" comment. You did not mention seconds, so I gather you do not want or can find men who would stand up with you in this type of event.

Fine by me.

Gray Ghost
Sissy far better men than you have tried.

Gray Ghost
Sissy, it is time to say good nite. You "thing" have a great evening!

Folks be well and enjoy the evening

Let Me Guess
My words mean exactly what I say they mean, nothing more nothing less.

Skiddles
I appreciate your thoughts on this, mainly because they are "thoughts" and not an attack on others that also have "thoughts." (I'm as riled at the left wing wackos on alternet as I am the right wing wackos here, so forgive the lecture.)

But more specifically, let me comment on some items…..

>>> 1,2. Tax reform and HSA/Catastrophic

.... This seems "fair," but it perpetuates the ineffective insurance bureaucracy that consumes 31% of healthcare costs without ever laying hands on the patient. We should be seeking ways to eliminate this waste, and neither Hillary's nor McCain's plan does it. Implementing a simpler system is better than putting more complexity into the one we have. Being a Medicare patient with 35 years in the health care industry, I prefer Medicare-for-all.

>>> 3. Federally controlled lisencing of MDs

.... We already have that and it doesn't work. See my blog entry at http://www.moneyedpoliticians.net, which will provide transparency and send the inept docs to Wal-mart to treat colds and flues.

4. Tort reform.

4, 5. Malpractice insurance reform

.... Agreed. We need a three medical judge panel headed by retired doctors with no conflicts of interest and a "loser pays" policy.

6. Foster reciprocity provisions so that insurance companies in Delaware can compete with companies in Florida for patients in Texas.

.... I hate this. First, it not only keeps the insurance industry in the loop, it means that hospitals and clinics no longer have to deal with the 500 in their state they now have to deal with the 1500 nationwide. This will drive their costs up, not down.

7. Allow for any self identifying groups to negotiate premiums with insurance companies - Churches, MADD, professional organisations.

.... See answer 6


Skiddles continuation
8. Legislate that lawmakers lifetime medical needs can only be provided by VA/Medicare while they exist. The poor can't opt out.

.... Agreed. Lawmakers should be mandated the same coverage as everyone else, and cannot get free coverage outside of the system.

9. Remove artificial limits on Med School positions.

.... I don't think they exist. My grandson got in on the basis of high grades. I would propose a 100% med school rebate for anyone in the top 10%, a discount for those in the next 10%, and Wal-mart for the lower 70%.

10. Seperate the selling arm of insurance company from the claims arm.

.... or get rid of them completely. The 31% administrative waste that's consumed by the massive insurance bureaucracy includes the unnecessary administrative and billing personnel at insurers, hospitals and clinics, plus the insurer's costs for marketing, broker sales commissions, actuarial costs, gatekeepers, high executive salaries and ever-increasing shareholder profits. Even their high costs of lobbying and campaign contributions are passed to the patient. The public should not be forced to eat these costs.

11. Limit the factors that can be considered in determining premiums to age, general health, and lifestyle choices.

.... Under a Medicare-for-all system I would adjust co-pays upward on smokers and obese patients, but the rest takes care of itself.

http://www.MoneyedPoliticians.com

Correct blog address
Sorry, the blog address is: http://MoneyedPoliticians.net

jlohman
8. Legislate that lawmakers lifetime medical needs can only be provided by VA/Medicare while they exist. The poor can't opt out.

.... Agreed. Lawmakers should be mandated the same coverage as everyone else, and cannot get free coverage outside of the system.
=======================
Politicians should not even be allowed to PAY for treatment outside of the lowest quality system which they perpetuate.

If a Senator was going to be required to use Medicare ONLY for the rest of his/her life, he/she would dump it in a heartbeat. What Belinda Stonarch did recently is the height of criminallity in my opinion.


Skiddles
Well, being on Medicare I'd probably not agree. I do think the lawmakers would soon close the gaps in Medicare, but it is already a pretty good system. I see the same doctor and go to the same hospitals as before.

It is more costly than the norm because it covers only seniors and end-of-lifers. But fold the youngsters in and the average would be less than we are paying today.

I don't know about the Stonarch case, but if she indeed had a special king of cancer it may have been justified.

But remember that Canada spends only 10% of GDP on health care. If they'd increase it to 11% or 12% their care would be identical to ours (at 16%).

Here's a comparison, for what it's worth: http://tinyurl.com/23m9ol

Jack Lohman
http://MoneyedPoliticians.net

Dem doing a endrun to Socialized med.
The Dems are pushing this "for the children" in an attempt to bring socialized medicine in the back door. I will have to say I just became eligible for medicare. Social Security and Medicare alone will bankrupt this country.

Docwaters
I agree, but only partially. The Dems are both trying to move the system not towards socialized medicine (like the VA and armed forces systems), but toward a Medicare-for-all system. But it is the R's that are trying to drown it in the bathtub with the likes of the $780 billion drug industry giveaway and blocking Medicare from negotiating drug prices.

The truth is, we ALL have to pay for health care anyway, either directly or in product prices. But by paying through a Medicare-for-all system we can reduce our costs by 31% and cover 100% of the public. The 16% who have no insurance at all are getting their care at the emergency room at a cost 10 times higher than if we simply did it right from the start.

You may have seen me say this before, but it never ceases to amaze me, the amount of energy that can go into a project just to avoid doing the right thing.

The best, simplest, least costly, most effective thing we could do is expand what has been working so well for 50 years, Medicare. You get sick, you get care, and the caregiver gets paid. Guaranteed. Nothing could be simpler. Simple is inexpensive and simple doesn't break. Complexity is very costly.

Churchill had it right when he said "Americans will always do the right thing, but only after everything else has failed."

Docwaters
And I would add, if you think our current health care system is going to bankrupt the country at 16% of GDP, what are you going to think when it reaches 20% in 2015? And oil and energy and pharmaceuticals take their bigger chunk? And we have a few more wars and hire a few more Blackwaters and Halliburton's.

The truth of the matter is that if we eliminated the corruption in the political system I think they'd make a decision that was right for the country, rather than their pocketbooks. And we'd then be okay with whoever was in power because they'd be working for us rather than their contributors.

Here's another site you may find interesting: http://www.WiCleanElections.org




jlohman writes
If they'd increase it to 11% or 12% their care would be identical to ours (at 16%).
=========
And how do you know that if there were no delays for cancer treatments etc, then the cost of treating cancer would not push their cost to 18%? There is no way to REALLY know until you do it.

And obviously the Canadians are not buying into that argument since if they were then the politicians could just pass a tax hike and pay the difference.

Maybe the people of Canada don't think that they will get their moneys worth for the additional taxes?

Again, coming from Australia I have lived UHC and since I left the situation has gone from bad to worse.

As I said earlier, I don't mind the Gov't paying for medical care as long as it is not from general taxes. If I opt out I should be able to pay taxes that don't go towards paying someone elses medical bills. If I am in then I pay a higher tax rate to cover my "premium".

But you do not seem to want me to have that choice do you?

So
You get sick, you get care, and the caregiver gets paid. Guaranteed.
==================
That is fine until the doctor will not just take the rate that the government wants to pay. Then you have to come up with more money to get your care.

That IS what happened in Australia. So then you needed to have supplemental insurance as well as UHC.

How do I know?
For one, their costs are currently 10% of GDP and they have a longer life expectancy rate, though part of that has to do with lifestyles. But we are at 16% of GDP and out of the 5 most common perilous diseases lead the rest of the world in only one. And we are spending double the dollars as everybody else.

The Canadians ARE buying the argument and 80% prefer their system to ours. But so-called think tanks (Fraser, Pacific Research) funded by the right-wing are lobbying parliament to open it up like the US so they can undermine their Medicare. See the links section at http://moneyedpoliticians.wordpress.com/resources/

And if all we had was an appropriately run Medicare-for-all, the doctors would accept Medicare rates. They are generally fair now, though Bush is trying to cut them to force Medicare out and private coverage in, but that will change as the Dems gain control. (And for the record I am a McCain supporter).

jlohman writes
It is more costly than the norm because it covers only seniors and end-of-lifers. But fold the youngsters in and the average would be less than we are paying today.
==========================
If you force the Young into any system it will lower the average of any system. But the cost to the young goes up assuming that they are healthy.

jlohman
You have never committed one way or the other whether I can opt in/ out.

And you discount ACTUAL experience in UHC for your IF ONLY propositions.


And another thing
The Canadians ARE buying the argument and 80%
===============
So if the system is working for 80% does that mean that we should leave it alone?

Last I saw the US sytem works for 85% of Americans.

Maybe the 20% of Canadians who do not like there system are the ones that their system does not work for.

skiddles
>>> "But the cost to the young goes up assuming that they are healthy."

Not by much, if at all, and that will be offset by expanded coverage and a better US economy. And they may be healthy "today," but people invariably need health care. Your solution is high deductible plans, which is great as long as they remain employed and their families remain healthy.

No, you wouldn't be able to opt out here any more than you could opt out for fire and police protection. You seem to want YOYO ("You're On Your Own") and I prefer WITT ("we're In This Together"). That's the way fire and police work and it works well.

>>> "So if the system is working for 80% does that mean that we should leave it alone?"

Well, I suppose they could bastardize it like the US system and cover only 85% of the people at double the costs. But really, the reason it has only 80% support is that they underfund it and have wait times. If they would properly fund it they'd have 95% support. There's still 5% that want to be in the profit-taking loop.

Contradiction
It seems like Ken Blackwell is contradicting himself. At the beginning of the article he comments on how government has "proven itself inferior" for health care but then comments about the health care provided for low-income children. By his own words- this system isn't adequate for our children.

An Idea so Dumb...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qcypRnDcCo
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