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Wednesday, June 27, 2007
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Sicko Guides Liberals' Health care Agenda
by Ken Blackwell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


“Once it is fully established, bureaucracy is among those

social structures which are the hardest to destroy.”

- -Max Weber

Michael Moore got slammed by Larry King. The outlandish documentarian was bumped from the “The Larry King Show” by none other than an ex-con, Paris Hilton.

Moore’s film “Sicko,” though, is certainly abuzz among liberal pundits. Moore offers a solution to millions of Americans without health insurance — government-run health care, just like Cuba.

Moore correctly identifies health care reform as a pivotal issue for this country, but he dives off the liberal deep-end by claiming the Cuban health care system is somehow superior to ours.

Let’s put it this way. While Major League Baseball scouts may dream of free access to Cuban pitchers, shortstops, and clean-up hitters, few Americans would consider drafting a Cuban doctor for a critical surgery.

It’s easy to discount Moore as just another half-baked Hollywood activist on a misinformed, politically fashionable tirade. That is, until you tune in to what the Democrat presidential candidates are saying. They, like Moore, believe a federal government-run health care system is the solution to our health care challenges.

While they may vary on specifics, all of them call for the federal government to take over medicine, controlling what doctor you can see and for what reason you can see them, and dictating what treatment you’ll receive.

Republicans strongly disagree with this approach. All 11 Republicans running for president, now that we can include Fred Thompson, believe whenever government takes over a program, it gets more expensive, leads to terrible waste, declines in quality of service, and endures countless delays and mistakes.

Think of the hassles you face at the department of motor vehicles. Now picture dealing with those hassles when you take a child to the doctor: Take a number to wait in line for countless hours, or days, for the wrong test, or to correct a prescription for the wrong medicine. Stand in one line for x-rays, then another for medication.

At each stage the person you’re dealing with has to consult thick rulebooks written by bureaucrats hundreds of miles away. As mistakes are inevitably made, the nurse will be unable to get through to someone with the authority to fix the record or authorize the procedure.

Or worse, think of the absolute meltdown after Hurricane Katrina. Then consider dealing with that level of chaos at the hospital during an emergency. Imagine being in a dire condition and having a doctor at your side unable to get through to the right person to authorize what you need done, or finding out that you can only be treated at another hospital on the other side of town.

Government cannot overcome the laws of economics. All resources are limited. Supply and demand set price, quantity, and quality. When you promise something for free, you run out of supply as people consume resources regardless of need.

Also, the smaller an organization is, the better administrators are able to handle unusual or emergency situations. The opposite is true for government because it is immense.

For all these reasons, a national government takeover of medicine, promising unlimited treatment for 300 million people cannot possibly work half as well as the system we have today. We need to improve the system, not make it an endless bureaucracy.

Instead of a big-government takeover, the candidates should support allowing competitive markets to fix health care. Patients need providers and researchers competing against each other to provide better services and medicine. This only occurs when patients have a choice among providers and are free to go elsewhere if dissatisfied.

They must understand the superiority of the free market when it comes to bringing down prices. Government wastes countless of billions of dollars because it does not have to compete, so prices soar and you pay for all of it through higher taxes.

Private sector personnel keep searching for ways to do it faster and cheaper, so that they can offer a lower price to attract business. They work long hours to innovate, improve, eliminate waste, fix problems, develop new products and services, and offer solutions.

When that happens, consumers win. In a medical context, that means more lives are saved and people are healthier.

Finally, all of the candidates must talk about prevention. We can prevent many emergencies that result in hospital stays. Problems like childhood obesity and overuse of alcohol and tobacco result in terrible injuries that are either deadly or force a person into decades of constant discomfort with the need for extremely expensive care.

There will always be those with special needs. Government is needed to help people, but government must be the last resort, not the first. It should be a safety net for those who suddenly fall out of the system, not become the system. If we empower people to take care of themselves, it will free up the government resources necessary to help them.

The Democrats enjoy an advantage in the polls in health policy because they promise everyone will get care for free from an all-knowing, all-powerful government, as if government can ever get it right.

Republicans believe in enhancing a system focused on individuals and families that will keep everyone healthier and save lives. They must make that case to the people.

As the debate over health care reform continues, Americans should remember Dr. Jose Luis Garcia Sabrido. He was the Spanish surgeon flown to Cuba to operate on Fidel Castro. It seemed that Cuban doctors botched the job on el presidente and needed outside help. I wonder if they made Dr. Garcia Sabrido available to other Cubans during his visit? I must have missed that part in “Sicko.”

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Mr. Blackwell
Yet again Mr. Blackwell shows me why i voted for him. This man is one of the greatest minds in Ohio and i am glad he has found his way to townhall.

Now if we could only get him to run for President. :)

All this would do
is give the welfare hounds yet another reason not to get a job. " I got medical, i get a government check every month..man im good to go, no need to get a job". How about this one? " School sucks, if i don't make it in sports ill be ok, i got medical and a government check guaranteed." The only people that should get guaranteed medical are kids. Able bodied adults who choose not to work are out of luck....

The Dems
The Democrats in whole and the Republicans in part seem to be bound and determined to turn this country into a socialist, third-world hell-hole.

Between the amnesty immigration bill and this fixation on inflicting federal bureaucracy onto our health care system, I can only conclude that these people are either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil.

One can understand the motives of Micky Moore: money and the satisfaction that he's put another one over on the morons who buy tickets to his little movies.

But what of the motives of the politicians who're selling the taxpaying CITIZENS of America down the river for their own political gain? The overwhelming majority (75%) of Americans do not want this amnesty bill passed nor do they want socialized medicine, yet our wishes are being ignored.

questions
1) I wonder how many votes the dums lost when they gave fatso a seat of honor at their convention?

2) All you democratic candidates - all of you who actually believe IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS that more government can actually provide the solution to the health care crisis - please raise your hands.

I thought so.

(This is the clincher)

All of you no matter your stripe who believe that fatso has any end in mind other than his own aggrandizement please raise your hands.

I thought so

bt - he'll be signing autographs tonight at paris hilton's release party

Liberals? How about everyone
You would think all americans could get together for better health care and being our brothers keepers. I thought conservatives cared about life and where the more holier than thou with out sin God fearing people, unlike the heathen secular progressive which is code for all "God Less" liberals and democratic.


If you think the health care system and the cozy relationship with government and the pharmaceuticals, HMO's and the Health Care, Doctor Lobby, than you are a Sick-o.


No one is say public health welfare or socialized medicine, but the DEBATE to make it better and stop the fraud and corporate greed would be a start.

Now THIS IS BY PARTISAN RANT. Both the Dems and GOP do it. Have you heard Hilliary talk about socialized medicine? No because she is on the take like all the other crooks on capital hill, including all your beloved Republicans.

It is crazy that people go to emergency rooms for routine health care. It's crazy a lady dies in an emergency room who was there for many many many hours and was ignored. Lawsuits are expensive and we all pay for that.

I have wealth now and I'm young and very healthy right now. But when I retire and don't have the income and my work insurance goes away, than it will be a different story.

When I was a teen, I went to socialized medicine for care; I went to Veterans Hospital (VA) hospital and even had surgery in one. My Dad was retired military (Bird Col 30 years), but Mom and Dad divorced so the kids (me) had no health care except for the VA hospital. Dad lived across the country and Mom went back to school to get her nurse degree. Thank God at least as a minor, I was still covered. Later as a very poor college student, paying my own way, insurance was out of the question. I was uncovered and lucky.


IN NO WAY DOES ANYONE WANT THE GOV TO GET INTO MEDICAL CARE!!!!!! However the Gov better start getting involved in caring for the PEOPLE. They better get involved in the medical industry which is doing some MAJOR stealing, cheating and lying with our boys and girls in Washington protecting them.

BTW the "ward" at the VA hospital had beds lined up in what seemed like a football long room. Must have been 40-60 beds in one room or hall. I remember waiting in the emergency room for hours when I had a serious infection. I remember after surgery the guy in the next bed was Chinese. He was pulled off an international ship for medical care. He would go into fits and rages because he did not want to be there (he spoke no english so who knows). In the other bed was a Nam Vet, nice guy but not really someone I should have been around at age 16 years old. I lived.


************************************************
I went to college (paid for all of it my self), grad school and built my work experience so I can afford medical care and deluxe care in my old age after I retire, as long as God willing I don't get super ill. I go to private doctors now. I like it. I should have better care because I pay for it and worked for it. However the whole system needs to be looked at and safety nets need to be put up. I do believe we can do it better (care for the poor) with OUT adding cost, while cutting some of the RAPE the health care extorts out of all of us.
************************************************


There should be some BETTER WAYS TO DO IT, other than whine, cry, pee and moan about Michael Moore or the evil Liberals.

Get over it and lets talk about some of the FACTS. I did not see the movie yet (but will). MM was on Jay Leno and talked about some of the evil that is built into the system. He glows about the UK and so on but that is BS. However there are some GOOD things for the people that could be done, even though the health care industry does not want it. Airlines have to put on new tires when the old ones are worn, because the government MAKES THEM. Our private health care system needs some new tires and the government can make them (but don't because of all the money they give politicians, that is the EVIL).


I do think some people make their own problems. People that "save money" and don't get medical insurance of any kind are inviting financial disaster. Of course big business wants those cheep immigrants for workers. Guess where they get their health care? Emergency rooms. Who pays for it? You and me.

I don't have a family and could out right buy insurance for less than $150 a month (last I check a few years ago). It's the family FOLKS that have kids and one bread winner who have the problem.

As a single guy, I could say screw the families, if they can't afford insurance or can't get a job with insurance, TOO BAD, don't have kids. However the "liberal" christian part of me says take care of my brother, especially kids, the ones that suffer the most. We can spend 300,000 million a day to "protect iraq" we can spend some on health care. When they get real sick due to no earlier care, they cost more later, fact.

I thought you all where about family values?


Health care (preferably preventative first and foremost) should be made available to all people for a fair price. Call me crazy. How to do it? Well we are all paying for it NOW, with insurance premiums and high health care cost.


STOP HATING: the poor, democrat's, liberals, the media (that is not Fox news or right wing talk radio), any Clinton or Kennedy........For once be an American that cares about Americans in America for no other reason than its the RIGHT THING TO DO, and stop just holding the party line in lock step.

I heard Moore on TV and he was NOT Partisan AT ALL. Yea he made the Bush movie. It was good and NEWS FLASH...the Bush family? They are OIL PEOPLE in bed with the Saudis and Energy industry. WOW no kidding. Look who he picked for VP (actually Cheney picked him self). Cheney is an oil man and made sweet love to the energy industry to draft energy legislation "in secret". Now gas is headed for $4.00/gal. President Cheney, not VP, but President of a shadow government, the 4th branch of government, the secret one that runs everything with no accountability. Brother, AND conservatives ARE OK WITH THAT? Unbelievable. We have problems PEOPLE! We better work together AGAINST the politicians because NEITHER party is FOR US.

Moore's the pity
We are going to have to start looking behind motivators. Putting Gov't in charge of most anything will eat itself up. Why do the so called "Elites" and in their minds "The ruling class" want all to have socialized medicine.? We who have medical now pay a hefty premium. Under Gov't control ,when the workers pay for all on a must basis, todays medical premium will seem very cheap. Why would anyone want this? # 1 REASON: The ruling class and those with inherited fortunes can opt out, not passing go or collecting a number. By eliminating all of us who has insurance, putting us in waiting lines while even paying more premiums opens the way for a two class system putting themselves always at the head of the line.

RE: YouDeserveToBeLaughedAt
"Get the facts for yourselves."

Folow your own advice, kiddo. Ask any Canadian how long it takes for them to get a needed MRI to treat their cancer. I could get one TODAY, if needed. Canadians either need to wait MONTHS, whereupon many die before they are able to be treated, or must travel to the "bad health care system" in Michigan to get their MRI. Yeah, THAT is EXACTLY what we need here!

Morons like you should be deported to Cuba since you like them so much.

pathetic arguments
There wasn't one strong argument in this entire column. I guess Blackwell drew the short straw and got the assignment of trying to find some way to defend our messed up health care system; admittedly an impossible job.

The whole argument Blackwell presents here basically comes down to "government bad, free-market good".

You shills for the insurance companies are going to have to do better than that. People are waking up to the fact that the argument isn't that simple. They know that other countries with government run systems are providing higher quality health care at lower costs.

The people are also waking up to the fact that people who think that government is the source of all of our problems, should not be trusted to run government.

Phylo out.

pathetic arguments
Phylo, I am more than willing to be informed about the other countries who have "government run systems with higher quality care at lower costs". I would like to study their system. Would you name one or two of these countries please ??

Fair and Balanced
"Film Guts US Health Care System" by Clarence Page, online today Wednesday at chicagotribune.com, presents another point of view. Just in case anyone here is interested in a "fair and balanced" presentation.

I absolutely love ....
posters who tell us that people are waking up and they know that government health care in other countries is known to be superior to our system. How do they KNOW this. As every service is provided by another human, I guess those folks in other countries are just Better People. Thir secular humanist values exudes the best of humanity.
In the end it's about human nature, it has always been about human nature.
It's about Men who want to Free withstanding the evil forces of others who are meddlesome, quarrelsome, decietful and envious.
Rather than to do the positive thing for themselves .. these people build alliances with government. They will forever be in your face and always have someones else's hands in the aire for the pugalism, but individually, know them for what they are.
I think that it is that simple.

Potential Anti-Hillary campaign in Sicko
Sicko would make a great anti-Hillary presidential campaign by showing Americans how only sick, Castro loving, left wing liberals like Michael Limousine Liberal Moore could stand for Hillary's brand of socialized medicine. With a sponsorship like that what straight thingking human being could vote for Hillary.

Socialized medicine
Socialized medicine-HA! You really don't want that. Unless you have lots of money. Then you will get whatever you need. The rest of us will get in line, after line, after line. Behind all the illegals also. Don't forget, the Illegals are here now keeping us paying American citizens in line already. Go socialized and you will not see the end of the line.

To jwslin
Although your challenge is directed to someone else I would like to give a couple of anecdotal answers.

1) A few years ago on a business trip to Denmark my husband became very ill with a severe infection. He was taken from his hotel by ambulance to a hospital where he was kept on strict bedrest for two weeks while being treated around the clock with antibiotics. His care was excellent and he recovered well. When he left he was given apologies that the national health care system could not completely cover the cost of his treatment because he was a foreigner. He was then presented with the part of the bill for which he was responsible: the equivalent of forty US dollars. Compare and contrast: he was recently hospitalized here for a total of ten days (eight plus two in two separate stays within a month) and the bill was close to four hundred thousand dollars.

2) Recently I happened to watch a Norwegian movie that turned up at Blockbusters. The plot involved a mentally ill man who went to pieces after his mother died as he had lived with her and she had done everything for him. He was collected by ambulance, kept in a hospital until he was stabilized and properly medicated, then helped by a young male social worker to settle in a supervised apartment where he learned to cope for himself and get along with roommates. This adult male also had his first girlfriend and was taught about contraception. Meanwhile he began a supervised job suitable to his abilities. (In Norway all of these services are associated with the government health care system.)

That's all there was to the story, but as I watched it I kept thinking of the mentally ill homeless men who live in my local park. Not only does our health care system not help them at all, but the current Zeitgeist is that government services to help them would be counterproductive for society. Thus they go untreated, sleep on the ground, and eat whatever they can find in garbage cans. "If this is as it ought to be/ My God, I leave it unto thee.".

RE: lilly liar
"Compare and contrast: he was recently hospitalized here for a total of ten days (eight plus two in two separate stays within a month) and the bill was close to four hundred thousand dollars."

If this is true, then you forgot to mention that he had extremely complex open heart surjery that required 7 specialists in a 14 hour procedure and several days in the ICU. Oh, and he never bothered to get health insurance.

My uncle has had multiple heart valves replaced and a kidney transplant. He spent LITTERALLY the first eleven years of his life in the hospital because he was born with 1 1/2 kidneys and the one whole one had to be removed. After he came home from the hospital, he needed regular dialisis until he finally received his transplant at about the age of 30. If you added up ALL of his bills that he had to pay out of pocket, they might add up to $400,000, but that is over a 30-year period after several complex surjeries.

In short, you are a liar, which shouldn't surprise anyone since you have a LOOOOONG history of doing so on these boards.

SFASU7392 ...
few other things you might mention .....
I always do in face to face situations ...
1) If you feel so strongly about helping others, why don't you put your hands in your pocket?
2) As a person who believes in government and feels that government knows what it is best to do with their money ... do you take tax deduductions? Why aren't you paying your fair share instead of following the lead of the evil rich and seeking loop holes to avoid your civic responsibility?

Guy named Bob Grant who absolutely nailed it ... 'Fakes, Phonies and Frauds ......'

Canada 30 million vs. US 300 million!
Just look at the numbers! Look at how much our Canadian neighbors are taxed and then think about what nationalized health care would mean to this country. I totally agree that fixing the current system is the way to go. Free markets really do work, given the chance to do so with limited involvement from the Government. Our government can't even run our Social Security System, so you want to entrust your healt care? The Republican candidates really need to drill this point home.

education
use the same points for getting gov out of education. aloha

Isn't it amusing?
Isn't it amusing that the kooky commies like YouDeserveToBeLaughedAt and lillyliar put so much faith into a person whom even those on their own side have OPENLY ADMITTED is a habitual liar? That really tells every just how utterly brainwashed those freaks really are. Like I said, if they really believe Michael "I cannot tell a truth" Moore and think that Cuba is superior to the US, I say we deport them all to the loving arms of their lover Fidel.

Ronsch
become a private activist and operate a fund drive for these people. Most of the people in TH will give as they are able. We don't need rich thieves in government who contribute nothing to life but what might be gained by acting this way or that ... mandating how we should behave.
My garbage man and my doctor contribute insurmountably more to humanity in a few minutes of their day than all the sacks of effluvium in all the worlds capitols do in their entire lives.

SFASU7392 Dude ...
I get the impression that you read this as opposing you ... I'm verbally challenged. I meant that you should ask this of the folks you encounter. As a member of our armed forces, my hat is off to you ... you and yours are probably the only Americans remaining and the powers that be are doing their very best to disembowel you.

Health Care costs
We already have universal health care in this country. My roommate, who is uninsured, recently had a heart blockage and went to the hospital where they did an angioplasty on him. The bill was for $20k. He probably won't pay anything. Those of us that have insurance pay for those that don't. As I see it there are 2 things that need to happen in the health care arena. One is to get rid of dishonest lawyers(that would be like 90%) like John Edwards, who drive the prices of everything up with their frivolous lawsuits. That will ease the problems doctors have with malpractice insurance. Many pay tens of thousands of dollars to practice. The second is to make health insurance affordable by giving us a straight off the top deduction for our health insurance so that we can buy it ourselves and not have to go through our employers to get health insurance. As I see it we are already straddled with one bloated unworkable mess that the government created in Social Security, we need not to let the bureaucrats and socialists destroy another one.

Hahahahaha!!
YouDeserveToBeLaughedAt has gone from the innane to just cut-and-pasting the same garbage from a week ago. Didn't your beloved Moore forward a new set of talking points? Maybe he ought to.

Do us all a favor and move to Cuba, which you OBVIOUSLY find more comfortable.

ThighMaster
it is of no importance whether these people believe this or not. It is important to realize that they are an internal enemy who allie themselves with government as they cannot be hammers themselves.
Meddlesome, quarrelsome and envious .....
that is who you confront.

Jet Pilot
I have to say that you are extremely uninformed about the "health care system". First of all, there is no set system. The only "system" that has central control is Medicare. That system pay pennies on the dollar and places nearly insurmountable preconditions on physicians to actually qualify to collect their "fees". You may be surprised that physicians are forced by govt. mandate to participate in this program. Sound familiar? If you want to talk about govt. regulation, forget about it. Medicine is heavily regulated at both the state and federal levels. You wonder why it is so expensive? My hospital pays at least 5 people full time to collect and report different metrics to the state. That number spirals upward every time that there is some inspection.
You say that you checked into health insurance and it was $150 per month? What, 20 years ago? My employees cost me about $380 per month with a $1,000 deductible, which I pay the first half of. My family plan was running close to $22,000 per year before I left blue cross. It is now about $15,000 per annum.
You go on to blather about "stop the hating" and "you hate poor people". What a load of cr*p. Conservatives do not hate poor people; we hate liberal demagogues that propose program after program designed to keep those poor people on handouts and dependent on the govt. We value hard work and self-reliance over "being our brother's keeper". I have never met a conservative that wants to remove the safety net that provides a hand up when times are bad. No thank you to cradle-to-grave welfare, though. You also whine about healthcare "for the children"; this is a typical liberal ploy, to make something about "the children" to dress it up for popular consumption. "The children" are the targets of many fed and state initiatives to keep them healthy. In my home state, the poor kids get healthcare, dental, glasses, educational support and even get their braces paid for. This goes well beyond the basics of needing an ER for primary care.
Lastly, check out any modern VA hospital- they are usually quite nice and open wards have gone the way of the Edsel.
I am a surgeon and a Navy veteran, so I am eminently qualified to make these comments. What are your qualifications?

Lilly
Just wanted to make a few comments. Lilly you have confused Price with Cost. The price you paid for your husbands hospital stay may have been 40$ but you can't seriously believe that was the cost of his care. If in fact here in the states you paid 400K that no doubt more accurately reflects the true cost of his care. the question you need to ask yourself is who paid the $399,060 balance (the true cost) of your husbands care in Denmark.
It is also interesting to me that a while back the New York Times printed an article that talked about how expensive the Canadian system was. The costs continue to rise and they have had to sacrifice parts of their education and defense budgets in order to keep up. That is from the NY times NOT Fox news.
Finally, I do not think I am going to see the movie, but that doesn't preclude me from discussing the issue. The arguments have not changed.

thighmaster
Hey! cut cliff some slack, there,s little left in is budget for health care after his piercing and new tatoo.

CVN65
Awesome ... but don't confuse 'em with the facts, their mind is already made up. And besides, thinking as hard as you do and putting together coherent sentence structures has got to hurt and be difficult.
Democracy in action ... the great dark mass leading the way by virtue of government sponsored terrorism.

Sicko is a Great Movie???Surely you Jest
You Libs Make me Laugh! What a bunch of children! "Oh Big Government, save me, save me from evil capitalism and make all my decisions for me. I'll give you all my money...just don't make me take responsibility for myself. You decide how to spend the money I earn! You, oh great wise government...you determine what is important to me....just take care of me....Oh wise one...make health care available to all...I want to pay for everyone!!! Even those who CHOOSE NOT to budget money they have to pay for their own medical care. It's only fair. Health care is a right!"

Do a little research on the NHS in England, or Canada's health care system. For that matter, look at the prototype of nationalized health care by looking at the health care provided to our US military! I'm not saying that nationalized care will necessarily result in the worst care...but it will certainly be degraded from the current EXCELLENT Medical establishment we have in the USA. It's only expensive because it is State of the Art AND medical providers have to cover themselves from malpractice suits. We need Tort reform...NOT Nationalized Health Care.

SFASU7392
totally criminal how people who have served and are serving have been treated and are presently treated.
Betcha the service our plenipotentiaries recieve at Walter Reed is top of the line.

thunderbolt .. ThighMaster
my family came here before the Revolution and made sport of anything wearing Red. I was not afforded the privalege of serving. Goodly chunk of the rest of my group did.
My dad would tell you that he was afforded the privalege of serving America with the Corp from '42 to '52.
My uncle lost a lung and kidney in Italy ...

I'm not like the doctor .. he has the ability to develop cohesive sentence structures.
I am extremely disappointed with the members of my Howdy Doody generation ... looking at themselves in the mirror is it any wonder they are pro-abortion?
So ... you tell me where I stand.


That should say ..
made sport of shooting anything wearing Red.

Can't spell, can't type, bad sentence structure ... product of the vaunted educational industry.

thighmaster
Heck, even cliff doesn't know that the new talking points from the DNC won,t be out until 6pm.

YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh
also spend a bunch more on education ......

Really big government program ...

phylo- shill for socialism
Your words, "You shills for the insurance companies are going to have to do better than that. People are waking up to the fact that the argument isn't that simple. They know that other countries with government run systems are providing higher quality health care at lower costs. "

No one is a shill for the insurance companies, but I guess pointing out the problems w/ socialized medicine is above your head. I guess that makes you a shill for socialism, or just big gov't. You are right about 1 thing, the problem isn't very simple and by making a new gov't progrma to "fix" the problem isn't the answer either. The article along w/ the others written recently has pointed out that socialized medicine is not the great utopia you liberals think it is. As long as we have people wanting something for free, expecting gov't to pay for everything and an endless supply of people not paying taxes, the problem will never get fixed. You and all the other liberals need to wake up to the fact that the gov't can't take care of you for the rest of your life; that is your responsibility. You claim other countries are providing better care at lower costs, name them. If you want rock bottom care, that's what you're get when the gov't is running it. Remember, that's the same body that can't solve the social security, medicare, border security, education, and yet you people think it will magically solve the healthcare problem. Right.

SADDEST moment of the film..............
five cents ... where is it made? What is it's actual cost? How is it paid for? Ans ia it a good product?
And since you love government so much, who is responsible for making peoples savings, if they have any, absolutely worthless?

If I had a crimminal nature I'd run for government office.

yrmml
We didn't need another Moore propaganda piece to debate healthcare. In fact, the issue has been brought many times and it still is a bad idea. The fact that you are so easily duped by Moore and his "movie" shows how foolish you are. If you believe everything you see in a movie, then don't watch "War of the Worlds".

Laughingboy
"An American woman crying because she has about bankrupted herself in the States paying $120 per breather medication device, needed twice a month on disability income. When told in CUBA each is only 5 CENTS she loses it."

Yeah, and the average wage in Cuba is about $10 a month. Does the movie say precisely what her medication is so the cost after medicaid insurance could be verified?

not that different
"At each stage the person you’re dealing with has to consult thick rulebooks written by bureaucrats hundreds of miles away."

With HMOs and capitation, you have a fixed amount per patient paid to health care providers. (I'm not talking about meds, though.) Large private HMOs and providers are also bureacracies and also have thick rulebooks. The difference between private rationing (HMO) and government rationing (single payer) is important but not the night and day vision pushed in many conservative corners. Having the government pay for medical care is not the same as having the government provide it in some sort of NHS nightmare.

Look at the experience of Medicaid and Medicare in the USA as examples of single payer systems. Look at the experience of employer provided insurance. Look at the price of prescriptions. Talk choice, fairness, etc. Not bogeymen.

Laugher
Also, if the woman in the movie is on disability, then she is already on a gov't healthcare program. Doesn't sound like it's all that great for her now does it?

"Lilly the Loony Lib" is back
Re: “Lilly the Looney Lib”.
This ubiquitous pest keeps showing up on Town Hall despite the fact that she gets destroyed when ever she posts a comment. She’s obviously a masochist who loves looking like an idiot and being humiliated. This Looney Lib posts irrational rants which have neither logic, nor proof. Her comments to other posts are rarely to the point, and often contain half truths, distortions, total lies, or lies by omission. Her typical tactic is known as “Hit & Run”. She drops her BS bombs and leaves. She never responds to criticism, as she has no ammunition with which to respond. So it’s a waste of time responding to her. My advice is to just ignore this idiot. Or to put it another way: Refuse to engage in a battle of wits with the mentally disarmed. Perhaps then she’ll eventually go away.

Laughingstock
Can't answer the questions? Maybe you should go watch your precious propaganda piece again.

Did anyone notice?
How YRMML, Phylo, Lilly and SpaceCadet ignored this paragraph?

As the debate over health care reform continues, Americans should remember Dr. Jose Luis Garcia Sabrido. He was the Spanish surgeon flown to Cuba to operate on Fidel Castro. It seemed that Cuban doctors botched the job on el presidente and needed outside help. I wonder if they made Dr. Garcia Sabrido available to other Cubans during his visit? I must have missed that part in “Sicko.”

Liberal Debating Skills: Lies, Obfuscation, Shrill Repetitiveness

ThighMaster
That's the truly sad part. There are millions just like laughingboy who are to dim to see that socialism has failed every time it has been attempted. Competition breeds greatness. Socialism stifles competition thereby preventing greatness.

Trading headaches
Why would anyone want to get rid of one flawed system for another flawed system.

The U.S. health care system even with its flaws works well for the vast majority of people that use it. Why would anyone want to go through all that expense for a new maybe even more flawed system?

Only wanting to increase government control in our lives could be reason to switch. We sure wouldn't be getting improved care!!

..
I would not have a problem with a government-run, voluntary health care plan, funded ONLY by the participants.

The problem is, proponents of socialized health care seem to have an obsession with making government health care mandatory.

Universal health care is the answer.
Our current health care system is corrupt, expensive, and inefficient.
*WARNING: SARCASM AHEAD*
We should urge our wise and benevolent government fathers to institute a system that is every bit as beneficial, cost-effective, and efficient as the other shining successes we have heretofore placed in their care: Social Security, public education, the tax code, Amtrak, etc.
I would go on, but I'm being inundated by messages of support and encouragement from Brits, Frenchmen, Canadians, and Cubans who are singing the praises of THEIR state-run healthcare systems.
*END OF SARCASM*



lilly and jetpilot's misconceptions
as a former canadian now a us citizen for 20 years I must comment. Cost controls and other government interference have crippled Canada's health system with shortages and poor quality.Doctors flee to the us upon board cerification, mri's and ct scan equipment are rare, and modern non-invasive surgical techniques such as laparoscopy are almost unknown.Rationing is the inevitable result of removing market incentives from the equation. To avoid this, americans must restore capitalism to the mixture via the price mechanism. By incentivizing rational tradeoffs in supply and demand, prices apportion finite resources amongst competing consumers. Currently there is no motivation for consumers to price-shop as the cost of a service is immaterial if someone else is paying for it.I suggest 1) remove all government mandates from insurance policies, allowing consumers, not nanny-state politicians, to decide which coverages and features they wish to pay for, 2) tax employer-provided health insurance as regular income, while allowing dollar-for-dollar income tax credits for individually purchased plans, and 3) keep medicaid and medicare around, but in drastically reduced fashion, comparable to the public defender system in our courts.Most consumers would purchase inexpensive catastrophic care medical insurance and pay other costs out of pocket.If consumers shopped for healthcare like they do televisions or vacations, competition would restore price equilibrium to the marketplace.Recall the advent of laser eye surgery-Expensive at first, now much lower in price. Why? because insurance usually didn't cover it.Imagine doctors and hospitals advertising prices and competing for your x-rays or other business.Also, the higher costs and premiums associated with irresponsible behaviours like smoking, obesity, drug and alcohol abuse or high-risk sex and out-of-wedlock childbirth would eventually result in less of these conditions.Market incentives work. The liberal tactic of penalizing hard work , self-reliance and responsibility through tax-funded transfers to in turn reward / subsidize indolence and irresponsibility is counter-productive and leads to societal breakdown.Of course it does ensure increased power and employment for government bureaucrats, most of whom(imagine this!) turn out to be liberals.

YouRepubsMML; Phylo
Michael Moore has no credibility to intelligent, analytical people. Any one who considers Michael Moore a solid source for supporting their beliefs and arguments doesn't even merit an intelligent person's passing interest. 'Roger & Me', 'Bowling for Columbine' and especially 'Fictionhype 911' are all fraught with easily refutable lies, half truths and embellishments. Incidentally, Michael Moore did not start the national debate about the health care industry. Do you really believe (YRMML) no one was considering ways to improve it before his latest POS movie? This is exactly the reason you are not to be taken seriously. Its scary (but just) that you are allowed to vote.

YouLibsStillMakeMeLaugh
YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh writes:

Choice of "free market" depends on the freedom to choose, which doesn't exist without money and/or power. That logic shouldn't apply to healthcare.

Why Not Free Market? Why is healthcare an entitlement? The poor already have access to health care in this country. We don't need to subsidize everyone. It's called choice. You libs are all about "choice." Choose to insure, or pay as you go, or join an HMO, or gamble on your health remaining good. Take responsibility for your own health care. If we could get the artificial price controls out of the way, eliminate frivolous law suits, etc., it would improve health care and costs would go down as competition increased.

Everyone knows that a poor diet is bad for you, smoking is not a good idea, playing in traffic is dangerous, but our country is founded on the belief in freedom. That includes the freedom to do any number of unhealthy things, to not save money for retirement, or plan for your own medical care. It's called personal accountability. It's called FREEDOM.

Universal Healthcare
One key factor the proponents of Universal Healthcare forget - you take the ability for healthcare professionals (drugmakers, doc's, hospitals, nurses etc)to make money innovation will die. This why the rest of the world relys on the US for practically all the technological leaps from MRI's, stents, drugs and etc. Government control of competition will drive the smartest innovators into other fields of work and capital investment.

In America no one having a real emergency is ever denied treatment. I believe Jet Pilot referenced a woman dying in a ER above - that was a King/Drew hospital in LA a county government facility that should have been shut down years ago. You want some real ammo on government health at work take a hard look at this facility:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-kingdrewpulitzer-sg,1,4721261.storygallery



ex-canuck
You are on to something but need to get to the next step. The elimination of health insurance companies would go a long way towards cost containment and choice in the field. If HSAs were promoted, people would manage their own health care money and would be much more cost-conscious when choosing providers for medicine, diagnostic tests, hospital care, etc. Eliminating the middle man would also ensure that more than 90% of the health care money paid into the system actually went to providing care and services. Further, my staff spends several hours each day (plus I have to employ two additional people full-time) checking insurance coverage, precertifications, fighting with the companies and actually submitting and collecting claims. These companies will "pre-approve" a procedure then later deny payment. I have been told by one company that "pre-approval" means that it is ok to do the procedure but not a guarantee that I will be paid by them. And I can't then bill the patient, either.
Thighmaster-Thanks. Imagine a medical system in which one needs to contact their Congress-critter for help getting moved up on a transplant or cardiac cath list. The economy of being "connected" at work. At least the pols are honest and will not take party loyalty or campaign contributions into account. I can see this happening with a one-payer universal government health care system. BTW the WHO, while good for some things, is hopelessly political and their conclusions need to be taken with a grain of salt. Not too many people leave this country for another to seek advanced medical care.

re: YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh
YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh apparently doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion. Not surprising - he's obviously a product of modern public education.

Michael Moore has a track record of making silly little movies designed to dupe morons like YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh into plunking down their ten bucks, thus catering to the lowest common denominator in society, much the same way that Jerry Springer gathers his audience. The lowest common denominator of both offerings is the utter stupidity of those who watch them. All of Moore's previous movies have been proven to be fiction - rife with lies, half truths and hyperbole. Does this matter to idiots like YouRepubsMakeMeLaugh. Of course not. That would require him to exercise a process of thought and do some research, a process lost to drooler such as YRMML.

southerncon
You hit on something there. The reason why Castro can provide a breathing treatment for $.05 per dose is that his system neither developed nor patented the drug nor will they honor those patents. The amount of time and money required to bring a drug to market is astronomical. The drug companies have every right to expect a large return not only for their investment and risk-taking but also for the benefits their product provides. Add in govt price controls and we will have a front row seat to the end of innovation and new drugs being brought to market. What will the rest of the world do once they are forced to develop their own drugs and medical technology? Blame us as usual?

to ex-canuck
Excellent post, but maybe a bit over the heads of your average Michael Moore fan.

Besides, beyond the obvious flaws of the USA's already semi-socialized healthcare system, responsibility for our own health should begin with our own lifestyles: eating habits and exercise. One look at Michael Moore's physique, and it becomes difficult to take him seriously in any discussion of healthcare, no matter what your perspective!
Come on, all you libs, tell me it's a "glandular" problem!

Complex problem
There is no doubt the American health care system needs work.

But as someone once said: 'You think its expensive now - just wait until its free'.

I believe the big attraction of government health care is the perception by many that it will be free. To them at least.

And out first step in addressing problems needs to be getting past that perception. Everyone needs to pay, at least something.

Everyone wants immediate, unlimited, top-quality health care at no cost to themselves. And that is a totally unrealistic desire.

We need to first face reality.

beowulfe
You’re right on target re: “Lilly Liar”.

I refer to her as “Lilly The Lonny Lib”, and post a prewritten response when ever I see one of her all too frequent lying BS rants on TH. [See my post of 11:53 AM.]
Yes, her alleged $400,000 hospital bill makes her out to be the lying idiot she is. If she had come up with a more believable number she might actually have fooled some of us: except for the fact that she’s well known for spreading outrageous lies on most of the TH blogs where she posts; which unfortunately, is on most of them.

Note: My neighbor had open heart surgery with 3 days in an ICU. Total cost $40,000 versus the $400,000 claimed by Lilly. Yes, I know. It was an honest mistake. She just misplaced a decimal point. LMAO

Problem
The only problem with all of these MM articles is they keep posting pictures of his ugly face. YUK!

Facts
You guys are assuming the loony libs want facts. They don't. For one they are incapable of intepreting them. Secondly it doesn't fit their limited IQ agenda. Wonder exactly what they are smoking and what color the sun is on their planet, if they have a sun, because it seems to me they live in darkness.

Government Health Care
I used government health care exclusively for 22 years and they generally did a lousy job. I found that many of the so-called health care professionals had the attitude that no matter how good or bad a job they did they got the same pay check.

I was given an 8:30am appointment on one occasions and when I showed up in a clinic I found out that 40 people in the clinic also had an 8:30 appointment. I was not seen until the next day. I also had a doctor that told me that she did not feel like treating me so she didn't.

There are serious problems with government run health care. For those that say it is free and therefore good keep in mind that the money has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is taxes on working America.

Idea
I think it would be a good idea to stop responding to YRMML. Let's be proud that he figured out Ctrl-V so he could paste this over and over again:

"Mike has played you Repub's well in advancing the call for Universal Healthcare.

GOOD WORK MIKE!"

I was in grad school a few years ago, after working for five years. one of my friends was arguing with a guy about 26 who had been in school since kindergarten. He later gave me some of the best advice ever: "Never argue with someone who's never paid a dime in taxes".

You make me laugh, if you had anything to say, I'd respond. Why don't you go stock up no Clearasil and let the adults talk?


Ragnar Danneskjold
That sounds like a Scandinavian Rodney dangerfield, but you have my respect. Try to ignore Lilly. She reminds me a lot of someone named Kimberly (maybe it's the same person). Kimberly would fly in, drop a load of meaningless rhetoric, and fly away again. I used to call her the seagull. And YRMML seems like a new offshoot of this breed; he takes time off from his PlayStation2 to fling insults at adults. Must be his rebellious years.

lib posters don't get it
YRMML keeps insisting we cons would understand how much better government-run health care is if we would just watch this movie. That's like one of us telling YRMML that he will think GWB is a great president if he'll just listen to his next speech. We know who MM is and we don't agree with his politics and we don't trust him to tell us the truth.

And BTW YRMML, Nixon was a KEYNESIAN (liberal) on economics. He was the first Prez to give us arbitrary "price-wage" freezes and their inevitable shortages. The economy stalled under Nixon and "malaised" under Carter, who also imposed price controls. Nixon was not a conservative on either health care or the economy, so your shots at him have no relevance in this debate.

Jetpilot complains that we need government-run health care because the health care in this country is awful and offers the VA as an example of what's wrong. But the VA IS government health care. If the government runs the rest of health care it will all be as bad as the VA. The LOGICAL correction to the VA would be to examine how/if it could be privatized.

lilly tells us that a column authored by Clarence Page is "fair and balanced" ('nuff said on that one).

And Phylo has never gotten anything right so why should he get this?

Meanwhile, con posters have intuitively made the connection to education.

Right now something like 90% of our kids go to public schools, which do a lousy job. We are ranked something 24th out of 29 developed nations in education. On the other hand, something like 90% of us have private health care, where we rank first.

If the feds take over health care, like they have education, the health care for 90% of us will be just as lousy as the education our kids are getting. The only ones who will get good health care will the ones who can afford to pay for both the taxes to support public health care and premiums for their own private medical care. Just like the best educated kids are the ones with parents who can afford to pay the property taxes that support public schools AND private school tuition.

One last thought, and this was already mentioned by a previous poster. Blackwell writes:

"Moore offers a solution to millions of Americans without health insurance — government-run health care, just like Cuba."

But we already HAVE a solution. It's called free care. Hospitals are not allowed to turn away people who can't pay. And the free care indigents get in this country is BETTER than the typical care citizens who pay taxes get in Europe or Cuba.

What is really at the heart of this BS is this. Libs CAN'T STAND to see anyone make a profit. And they can't stand letting anything go uncontrolled. Mark my words. If we give 'em national health care they'll just go after some other industry next.

Imagine
Government-run health care.

Your kidney transplant is postponed indefinitely when the shop steward calls a wildcat strike of the surgical staff because the custodians mismarked all of their reserved parking places and doesn't have enough money in his budget for the paint needed to redo it correctly.

Instead of having your triple by-pass performed by the surgeon of your choice you learn at the last minute that a government bureaucrat has decided it will be performed by a third-year medical student who is borderline to flunking out (of a government-run medical school) and needs to training for extra credit.

The rubber gloves needed to prevent you from contracting a previous patient's infection are not available because the Department of Homeland Security mistakenly shipped tham all to New Orleans because Mayor Ray "schoolbus" Nagin still hasn't stopped whining about how the rest of the country didn't send enough help before, during, or after Katrina.

And the worst part (for liberals and their attorneys, like John Edwards), after all of these calamities cause death, disease, and general mayhem, there is no legal recourse because there is no private health care provider or insurer to sue. I notice that Edwards didn't start his push for national health care until AFTER he made his $50 million suing the private sector.

yourepubsmakemelaugh
Did you mickeee moron come out from under the
same rock?

Thru fraud, waste(people getting unneeded services) & governments take, the extra cost to
tax payers(you & me) is nearly 500 billion dollars.
THINK for gods sake!!!!!!!!!!

AZPhill
If you do a Google search on the “real” Ragnar Danneskjold, you’ll get some info on him.
He’s an interesting character.

Yes, I seem to remember Kimberly “The Seagull”: She's another Lib Loser like her Socialist fellow travelers; “Lilly the Lying Loony Lib”; “YRMML”, “Religiouslib” and “JetPilot”. (Yea, he flies jets – IN HIS DREAMS). It’s best to just ignore these losers. They never respond to constructive criticism. It’s like trying to teach a pig to whistle. At best, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.... LMAO

It is imperative
that the 2008 Republican presidential candidate be able to articulate the points of this piece clearly and convincingly to the electorate. Americans may very well go for universal, government run health care based on Hillary's (yes, it will be Hillary) campaign speeches and a supportive, biased media. These days we certainly can't count on congressional RINOs) to effectively defend a privatized system. A strong Republican candidate (an effective communicator) may be our last hope for fending off this nightmare.

Wiseone
I saw your dissertation, and yuo only made one mistake:

"Libs CAN'T STAND to see anyone make a profit."

That isn't true - no matter what Babs charges for concert tix, or Clooney to make the same movie over and over, of if their hero Bubba charges $10M per speech, they can stand that.

But if oil companies or drug companies (or Wall St. brokers) make a dime, it's because they're greedy. In fact, I think Oliver "I'm totally useless" Stone made an unintentional parody of the Wall Street greed ethic. That was shortly before his fantasy about the JFK killing, which to this day I have not seen.

Anyway, good writing...

Ragnar Danneskjold
It's an interesting name. I know enough to figure you're either Scandinavian or possibly Icelandic? Sorry; I can't tell which.

AZPhil
You're right. You explained that to me yesterday and I failed to incorporate it. I'll keep working on it.

Michael Moore is an expert
at self-promotion and how to make money by making movies in which he demonstrates no expertise (and actually, a tad of bafoonery). As far as I can tell, he has no other credentials and no other skills. If Michael Moore were willing to move to Cuba for the rest of his life -- I would be willing to pay for his first-class, one-way ticket. It would be worth twice the cost just to get him out of here.

Ex-canuck described at length living with the Canadian health care system. Not a pretty picture. Others have described at length living with our own VA system. Those people ARE NOT encouraging the rest of us to leave the U.S. because a government-run health care system anywhere else is so outstanding, nor to immediately adopt a similar system here. It is worth paying attention to these people, because they DO have direct experience. That's a little different than seeing (or making) a movie. (Well, no, maybe no everyone feels that there is any difference.)

On the other hand, I genuinely hope that the 10 or 20 people posting here who think Michael Moore is God's gift to health care will consider chartering a boat and moving to Cuba for all the health care advantages. Let us know how you like the wage levels there. And also the living conditions. And the Internet access. And of course -- that magnificent immediate access to the globe's most comprehensive and technologically advanced health care, and all at a price you can afford. Don't forget to write. (Or maybe scramble onto a raft and pray to God you can survive till it floats into Miami.)

Government
Before the libs get too excited about this, can we review the government's past successes?

Department of Defense (this one is essential): $500 toilet seats. They do win wars, though.

Public schools: Crappy compared to every industrialized nation.

Social (in)Security: The perpetrator of this would be in prison if he was a civilian.

Amtrak: No comment necessary.

War on Poverty: There's no more poverty, right?

War on Drugs: See above

Transportation (in)Security Administration: Making sure 85-year-old women get frisked a lot

Medicaid/Medicare: These are just dandy.

IRS: User-friendly forms plus very efficient

Post Office: Friendly and efficient

DMV: Does this require comment? They have METAL DETECTORS, and in my opinion, that is very prudent.

Aside from the great success rate, in virtually every case, you can assume if the "estimated cost" is a dollar, the actual cost will be at least $4.


Wiseone/Arby
Wiseone: Sorry to nitpick.

Arby: That is ironic, your name and a Michael Moore column together.

I guess YRMML had to go clean his room or something.

AZPhil, wiseone, Ragner
I could explain all day long the stupidity of socialized medicine. I could explain it with stats, and eyewitness testimony. I could make a case for court against it. the only thing we really need to know though is if the libtards are for it I'm against it!

Remember they're smarter than everybody. They know absolutely everything there is to know. So why bother? At what point in time are we wasting our collective breath? Maybe it is time to start boycotting and ignoring them altogether.

AZPhill
Actually Ragnar Danneskjold is a fictional character who dealt with Socialist governments and individuals in a way that would be considered in the real world by Libs as “politically incorrect”; but I would gladly do if I thought I could get away with it.

Lolo
I've posted factual material on my blog in regards to Socialized Medicine, from the governments of Can/UK as well as organizations that watch them. It is apparent to anyone with a working brain (that excludes liberals) that taking away financial incentive (getting paid MORE for BEING BETTER) is going to result in us getting screwed with thousands of Doctor Nick's running around.

I wonder if we deported 11 million illegals, who use our ER's WITHOUT paying, would drop the costof health care dramatically. And if we stop Ambulance Chaser's like The Breck Girl from making zillions by channeling dead kids for stupid juries, the cost would drop even more.

H*LL, just cut out the middleman and deport both the illegals, lawyers, and ALL LIBERALS. We'd be better off overnight.

AZPhil
Your post at 5:08PM was excellent. You forgot to mention the CIA (Chuckleheads in Action) more concerned with looking good than doing good.

The IRS note was funny and true. I've called them for help and gotten three different answers to the same question!

Any fool who thinks that the government can do it better than private enterprise needs a p*ss test ASAP!


It's simple, really
There are three groups of Americans pertinent to this nationalized health care discussion:
1. The "Haves"
2. The "Have-Nots"
3. The "ELITE Haves" who want to HAVE even more by exploitation of the "Have-Nots," arguing that everyone deserve "free" lifetime healthcare. It's "free" because the "government" takes care of it.

The deception, as has been previously stated by other posters, lies in the fact that the "Have-Nots ALREADY get free health care; it's just not (mis)managed by the government to the same extent yet...

bjimmy5757
Also, it should be noted that many of us who PLAN AHEAD already have medical through the VA, Tricare, and work, which we PAY FOR. Why the h*ll should I have to be TAXED MORE for someone who had probably made poor choices from his/her teeens onward?

They have the ER and County Hospitals to serve their needs. If they don't like it, they can upgrade their job skills and get a better job that PAYS for health care. Or join the military, get some frigging self-discipline as well as free health care.

Lolo, Ragnar, GunnyG
Lolo - ignoring these idiots is easy enough, but the ones in Congress actually have the power to make this nightmare come true.

Ragnar - That was dumb of me not to catch the word 'fictional' the first time. Oops.

Gunny - Thanks! Since the government can't do things as well as the private sector (hint - there's no profit motive), why don't we just let the gov't do the things it MUST do, like basically running the military.

What's happened to our health?
Among the reasons health care is so expensive, these days a $250,000 heart operation is used to delay a $5,000 funeral.

If you want insurance for a mistake during your operation, you buy it. Don’t leave it to the doctor. If he makes a mistake, tough, if he does something on purpose, he is a criminal for the government to punish. Any money you get is between you and your liability insurance company, with nothing to do with health care.

Why doesn't someone look into what has happened to the health of our nation. Seventy years ago I remember going to the doctor maybe 3 times from a few years old to when I left home, and it cost about $1 each visit.

My sister had an appendix operation that cost $25.

Just remember, in those days 100% of the people DID NOT have health insurance. Today’s problems started because health insurance came into existence, not because insurance is lacking for some people.

Fifty-five years ago I spent two days in a hospital. I had no insurance, and that cost me about $100.

Twenty years ago my wife cracked a rib, and her night in the hospital cost $1,500, insurance paid most of that.


How about this????

1. Everyone who thinks "Sicko" was a good and truthful movie, raise your hand!

Okay, you folks pack your bags and move to Cuba!

2. Everybody who thinks universal health care is a good idea, raise your hands.

Okay, you folks pack your bags and move to Cuba or Canada or England or Sweden!

Get it? If you think univeral (socialized) health care is SUCH a great deal, then by all means, MOVE to a country that provides it!

3. Everybody who thinks universal health care would be a disaster, and would rather work within one of the BEST HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD, raise your hand.

You folks anti up some money to buy the homes of those who will be moving to Cuba, Canada, or England, and help pay for their plane fare... (believe me, it WILL be worth it...) LOL












AZPhil
I hear your frustration. there is no logic in which they base their socialism. Now we have them re-writing history and definitions of words. Just look at lilly, Hal, and tanabear posts! That's just for starters! Go all over this forum and you will not believe it, or you might but I don't want you to stroke!

YRMML
YMML says: "The true power of a representative democracy should be about meeting the needs of you and your community."

WRONG!!

The true power of a constitutional representative Republic, such as ours was intended to be, is FREEDOM. It is only a coincidence that a free society also happens to provide the highest standard of living to its' citizens. If you approach this equation backwards, by trying to engineer the end result with increased government, you inevitably end up limiting freedom, making things worse rather than better.

Anne
I would pony up some money, but all of the places your sending them to do not allow private ownership of almost anything. What are ya gonna do?

Doctor Amanda "a doctor's perspective"

posted on Fred Thompson's column yesterday....

"As an ER doctor, I couldn't agree more with the senator.

"We see approximately 70% uninsured at our hospital, yet they are still provided the best medicine the world has to offer. While we definitely need reform in our health care system, government run medicine is not the answer.

"We need medical liability reform for starters.

"I'm so glad to see a presidential candidate who clearly understands this issue. "
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Amanda was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

We could start by not letting insurance companies manage health care, and put it back in the doctors' hands.

And we could also mandate that hospitals STOP over charging everything... For example... hospitals charging $25 per pill that cost pennies.

But, government run healthcare is the kiss of death!

How ironic is that???





yrmml, HMOs
I just skimmed a bunch of the posts here, and the biggest laugher is yrmml trying to pretend (per Moore's movie, apparently) that HMOs were foisted on us by Republicans.

yrmml must be pretty young, or he would know that HMOs were simply a market choice until jammed down every employer's throat by the legislative action of Ted Kennedy. Last time I looked, he was a Democrat, which is a good thing for him, 'cause if he was Republican, he'd have been forced out of his seat shortly after July 19, 1969, when it became clear he used his privileged position to avoid prosecution for a felony.

By the way, Nixon's alleged devious declaration, "less health care, more profit," was the EXPLICIT POINT of the HMO plan; by creating incentives to emphasize prevention over treatment, HMOs would improve the overall health of the nation while keeping costs down and profits up. How DEVIOUS. How EVIL.

Moore is a dolt. yrmml is a bigger one.

The real problems
If you examine the real problems that have evolved in health care over the last 40 years or so you will find that government has had its fingers in all of them.

The single biggest factor in rising health care costs has been the blossoming of a make-work litigation industry that has literally sued many insurers and providers out of business or into hiding.

This litigation has had ripple effects which include defensive medicine, doctors refusing certain kinds of patients, and an ever-increasing difficulty to get insurers to accept patients with "pre-existing conditions".

Other major contributors to rising health care costs are:

Higher costs for doctors in medical school.

Higher costs for nurses in college.

Unionization of the nursing and other med-tech professions.

Advances in medical technology, which brings with it expensive new equipment.

Advances in pharmaceuticals, which treat and/or cure problems that previously were chronic or terminal, which results in longer life, but with it more health maintenance costs.

All of this has been made possible because of the overwhelming general prosperity of American society.

Whenever I hear/read/see some lib bragging about how cheap drugs or treatment is in Canada or Europe or some "worker's paradise" I ask them if they have any idea how expensive that treatment would be if the Canadians, the Europeans, or the Commies they are bragging about had to invent the drug themselves instead of "borrowing" the technology from the US firm that actually did research it and develop it.

To give you an idea, when Pfizer, who invented Viagra, had their latest potential wonder drug fail its trials, the effect of not being able to put this single drug on the market forced them to close their ENTIRE R&D OPERATIONS in the state of Michigan (three sites, including Ann Arbor, which had operated there under Warner-Lambert and then Parke-Davis since the 1970's).

When the US health care system finally goes national THERE WON'T BE ANY FREE MARKET INVENTORS TO STEAL ADVANCES FROM.

That means you won't have to worry about paying outrageously high prices for the latest treatment or wonder drug because there won't be any new treatments or wonder drugs. With the government in charge, keeping prices controlled, there won't be nearly as much research money and what little there is will be given to the same kinds of clods who invented global warming and they will waste it trying to make something useful out of dead ends like embryonic stem cell research that have a big political motivation but no practical use.

Anne
Wrote: "We could start by not letting insurance companies manage health care, and put it back in the doctors' hands."

This sounds like a DNC talking point; did you intend that?

Back in 2000, Al Gore defended the DNC's plan for national health insurance using the same talking point. Of course, what he meant -- and what I assume you mean -- was "Let's put management of health care in the GOVERNMENT's hands." If he'd actually said that, the average man in the street would have rejected it as loony on its face, but in fact, that's what he meant.

Is that what you mean?

The reason insurance companies have such a large profile in the health business is that health care costs have spiraled out of control. There are a few reasons why they're out of control:

1) Government intervention in the form of price controls through medicare, which is fully half of the entire medical industry;

2) Overly litigious patients and overly generous juries forcing malpractice insurance through the roof;

3) Duplication of sexy but expensive facilities.

So if you TRULY want the insurance companies to have a smaller footprint on the industry, you should advocate medical liability reform, and the demolition of the medicare system in favor of, say, medical savings accounts.

But that doesn't leave the entire system in the hands of you Democrats, who truly know best for the rest of us who simply aren't able to think as clearly as you, does it?

Lolo: Well, those who moved to Eng.

or Canada could buy homes??? No?

I say, we've got to be fair... but most of the money we collected amongst ourselves would go toward plane fare anyway! LOL

The only other thing I forgot was, once they go, there's no coming back! (That's the part I like the best! LOL)

Did you happen the video clip of Michael-The-Mooron blubbering and almost speechless when someone asked him why HE didn't move to Cuba since they had such a great health care program?

It was great! LOL



wiseone
Just fyi:

The reason drugs cost so little in Canada and Europe is that drug prices are fixed by government fiat. The governments of those countries tell the drug companies what they'll be permitted to charge for any particular medication, with no necessary relationship between that price and actual production costs.

The US does not have similar price controls (except within Medicaid, which is another story), so the pharmaceutical companies make up the shortfalls on European drug sales by charging more in the US.

Next time you hear someone complain about the high cost of drugs in the US, tell them to thank the nearest liberal.

anne, sorry...
...about the "you Democrats" shot. I think perhaps you didn't mean what it sounded like you meant.

I loved your plan for those who raised their hands for socialized medicine...

Anne
Having lived under the HORRORS of Socialized Medicine in both the UK and Australia, and spend time in Canada and Cuba, I’d invite “Lilly The Lying Loony Lib”, YRMML”, “Religiouslib” and “Jet Pilot”, (who’s NOT); et al, to emigrate to the Socialist Paradise of their choice, where they can enjoy the “benefits” of Socialized Medicine. The rest of us “ignorant” conservatives will just have to suffer here.




inkling_revival

"We could start by not letting insurance companies manage health care, and put it back in the doctors' hands."

"...a DNC talking point; did you intend that?"

No, what I meant was "put health care back in the hands of the doctors..." certainly NOT the government.

But, part of the problem IS the health care facilities themselves... Did you ever look at a hospital bill? There is no reason why, for example, any health care faclility should charge upwards of $12-25 for a pill that would cost us a matter of pennies were we to buy it in the pharmacy.

And, of course, the insurance companies pass that along to us premium payers. Etc., etc., etc.

Just a few days ago, Fred Thompson wrote a TH article about tort reform that has had a very positive impact on mal-practice insurance, which in turn brough doctors back to Texas.

My point was, there are probably many things that can be done to bring health care costs back to "reasonable" WITHOUT jumping into the big black hole of socialized medicine.

And, I looked back to my previous posts to see where I might have written "you democrats...." Are you sure it was me? I'm usually very careful not to use that term, unless it's humorously or generically, such as "you folks.."

If I did, I'm sorry.

Now, "dumbocrats" I am guilty! :-)



To Jim
You may be right -- there are A LOT of people who think that insurance companies are a huge part of the country's health care problem, not the solution.

Keep in mind that insurance companies go hand-in-hand with employer sponsored insurance plans. Most of the charge for greater and greater involvement in managing care (and controlling costs) has come from employers, who don't want to incur higher costs. It wasn't the government, it was employers who wanted not to have double digit premium increase.

So, employers avoid higher costs. Insurance companies do too. But as for you and me -- well, that's another matter.

Ragnar: Right! I forgot! LOL

All us ignorant Conservatives who want to suffer here under the best health care system in the world... problems and all, the best, raise your hands.

I just raised my hand!!!! :-)

In fact, I've considered myself very fortunate that I never needed any health care while overseas.


Keep Your Grubby Mits OFF MY MONEY
I'm already paying ENOUGH income tax already...for the love of God...DON'T TAKE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED WAGE TO PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S HEALTHCARE!

Or for that matter, don't take my money to pay for MY healthcare!!
I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions regarding health insurance and doctor selection, thank you very much.

Managed health care has enough problems when it is in the hands of PRIVATE administrators...can you imagine the chaos once the FEDS get involved?

And if that fat hypocrite MM is so concerned, let him donate proceeds from his agitprop "film" to his favorite health care charity.
FAT CHANCE

Cal Bear
But that's how the libturd's think. Everyone should be equal! Equally miserable that is. Except of course, the pigs who are MORE EQUAL than the rest of us.

ON MY BLOG:

Check out how the Dhimmicrat Governerd of Va is f**king his citizens. A $1050.00 TAX per moving violation/ticket. A law passed without the people's knowledge going into effect 1 july.

And the law was written by a scumbag RINO lawyer who is a senior partner in a...TRAFFIC LAW FIRM!

The same process is at work
... when the pain pill administered in a hospital is insurance- and regulation-approved as when a toilet seat or a faucet handle becomes Department of Defense-approved.

Bureaucracy, and the distorting of a simple transaction by a mandated "process."

What such a process does is always -- always -- ALWAYS -- separate the purchase decision from any considerations of cost by the end-user, and insert the extraneous considerations of third parties in the transaction.

If a patient were asked directly to pay a hospital $12 for 800 mg of Motrin, he'd laugh hysterically and send his wife to Wal-Mart for an economy-size bottle of generic ibuprofen.

It's only when he is nominally shielded from the ridiculous $12 on the bill by his health insurance that it becomes possible for the hospital to levy this absurd charge. How many of us, faced with literally having to fork over $12 for something we could have a family member buy for us for less than 30 cents, would even let the nurse's aid leave it on the night table?

Hospitals attempt to recoup costs through OTC meds, bed linens, and so forth that they are prohibited from recouping in their charges for the actual medical procedures. The $12 Motrin isn't priced at $12 because of procedural excesses related to the inspection or approval of Motrin, but to the overall cost of operating a hospital, which includes compliance with extensive regulation and astronomical premiums for liability insurance.

Moreover, as communities in southern California are routinely made aware of, keeping ERs open depends heavily on hospitals attracting enough paying customers of higher-end, non-emergency procedures. Americans who think any of us are paying only for the care we, personally, get, are badly misinformed. Our network of insurance premiums and co-pays is already paying for others to have medical care, even without the official label "nationalized health care" on our health care market.

There's nothing wrong with the fact that our payments for medical care go to maintaining the fiscal health of hospitals that operate FROM that fiscal health to treat those who can't pay. The problem arises when constituencies unrelated to the doctor and the patient arise to distort the value of the service to those principal parties.

Government bureaucracy ensures this outcome. When DOD proposes to buy a toilet seat, it turns out that the seat must not only meet a set of battle-hardening specifications that extra people get employed to come up with, and even more are employed to supervise through production -- it must also meet the requirement of Senator Snickelfritz to be manufactured in Georgia, and of Congressman Bagadonuts to be purchased through a defense contractor in Richmond. Forty percent of its content must come from minority-owned businesses or Lawyers With Attitude will sue, and the whole procurement cycle will be enlivened by certifications from the EPA, EEOC, and every other shopkeeper on Planet Alphabet.

It takes a good five years to "procure" something as simple as a toilet seat when the government has to express opinions about it, and it's no wonder we end up paying $600 for it. A similar overhead of bureaucracy -- employees, regulations, and political constituencies you've never heard of and wouldn't have imagined were involved -- make 30 cents' worth of ibuprofen cost $12, if it happens to come to you in the hospital.

More of this in our health care is NOT what we need.

Health care fix
As a physician, I am fed up with the current system, where the value for my time and expertise is determined by outside forces that have nothing to do with medicine. For example, the most recognised system for determining the value of a service or procedure is the RVU system from Medicare. It plugs in values for time, complexity, practice expenses and the like, and derives a value for the work for each procedure code. Every few years, codes are updated. This past year, a number of codes were found to be undervalued, so they were updated positively. However, because these positive updates would have caused an increase in medicare expenditures, a "budget neutrality factor" was added, and Voila, the reimbursement for these undervalued codes went DOWN (i.e., I am paid LESS this year than last year for the codes that were undervalued last year).

In the meantime, my rent, utilities, payroll, supplies and capital expenses keep rising, and in the absence of any last minute congressional action to stop it, medicare rates for my services will go down another 10% on January 1st, 2008.

Do NOT put medicine further under the control of beaurocrats. I long for the ability to set my own reasonable fees, not to have fee schedules that make no sense from every different carrier and Medicare rammed down my throat , requiring me to try to make up the diffference from any higher paying client who uses my services. My family has Health Savings Acccount / catastrophic coverage, and it is the best answer to solving health care.

For those concerned about the "safety net", the accounts and premiums can be subsidised for the lowest incomes. Everybody else gets to write off their premiums. Doctors have the freedom so set their own fees, and would have to compete with each other so the charges would have to be reasonable to survive. Patients have the freedom to choose their doctor. Information about doctors and hospitals- complaints, malpractice settlements and awards, surgical success and complication rates would be sought after, and so would become more readily available. This is the only solution that truly "cuts out the middleman."

GCS Brian
Did you actually suggest that health insurance premiums should be tax deductible?

You actually are suggesting that the feds will legislate themselves out of all that revenue?

Next you'll be suggesting that they should vote themselves a pay cut or (horrors) term limits.

BTW - I have a "catastrophic" policy. It has a $2,500 deductible and costs me $1,300/year in premiums. For everything else I pay as I go.

wiseone
Empowering, isn't it?

BTW, Despite their claims at the time, the Health Care System was NOT in a crisis when Hillarycare was being conceived. I would say we are very close to crisis mode now. I don't think it would be a stretch to predict, in the absense of any significant change, there will be virtually no primary care providers who will accept Medicare within 5 to 10 years.

yourepubsmakemelaugh vs. wiseone, et.al.
Excellent posts by wiseone, and southern con. The rest of world has piggybacked/ free ridden on u.s. drug companies r&d costs too long now. If a foreign govt. says a $10 drug can only be sold for fifty cents, I say that country doesn't really need ANY of our "miracle drugs".YRMML- like many liberals, unable to win a rational debate, resorts to name-calling(reich-wing spew)Mr. cvn65, we still need insur. cos. to lay off the big risks, like fires, earthquakes, or organ transplants-I doubt average folks can pay $200k bills out of pocket.Lilly, yrmml, etc.-name for me the new drugs or medical procedures cuba, denmark, or late twentieth century britain have given the world(at least it WAS canadians who discovered insulin-banting and best)If hillary rodham stalin gets her way new drug/medical r&d will go the way of the dodo bird. Also, price controls-been tried all over the world in many countries, over hundreds of years-always led to poor quality and shortages.When will ostensibly well meaning folks learn ? Or do liberals care about results over power and posing-see t. sowell's "quest for cosmic justice" or "the vision of the anointed"

The real questions...
Over the past 20 years we have seen an explosion of new medical technologies, and boy are they expensive. The crisis in healthcare is largely the result of being able to keep people alive who would've simply died in the old days.

We need to ask the real questions:

Is everyone entitled to equal healthcare?

Is there a cap on how much you can expect others to spend to keep you alive?

What is your responsibility in terms of keeping yourself alive?

If we found a way to cure AIDS, but it the cost of the procedure was a million dollars, would every AIDS patient be entitled to it?

One more question...
If the US implements socialized medicine, where will Canadians go for emergency surgery?

Cuban Medical Care
I'm certain that Mr. Moore does not enlighten his audience by explaining that Cuba can offer "free" medical care to their citizens because the government took possession of all the homes, industries and private businesses back in 1959. The non exitant Cuban "economy" was propped up by subsidies from the USSR until that socialist government fell apart in '89. The USA has the finest medical institutions and practitioners, and everyone has access to care. The real problem is that no one wants to pay for it -- not business, not the government, not individual citizens. No other service in our economy faces this conundrum. We need serious dialog on the issue, but I don't think snarky docudramas like Sicko contribute to a solution.

Whatever the problems are with our

health care, and whatever the solutions may be, the government is NOT THE SOLUTION!

We have no alternative but to start with that premis! The Government Is Not The Solution!

Okay, let's start from there.......Discuss!




Did anyone ask fatso Moore?
If Cuba's health care is so much better, why are all those people fleeing aboard unseaworthy boats?

Please spare me from calling Mr. Moore, "nonpartisan." Had he been in the movie business in the 1930s, I am sure he would have done one on the joys of farming in the Ukraine.

Universal Health Care-SICKO
I would like to submit my comment letter to Dr. Gupta’s Blog and review of SICKO to you.
CNN did not publish the comment and appears to have stopped reprinting any comments sent
on the first day of publication of “My conversation with Michael Moore”

Dear Dr. Gupta,

I have seen both Michael Moore's recent interview with Wolf Blitzer and later with Larry King and yourself and I feel that your review on CNN was quite unfair and it would serve you well to admit its shortcomings. You have nowhere made a convincing argument that Michael Moore indeed "fudged the facts" as you claim. If your presentation about mildly different health care cost estimates in the USA or CUBA that you and Moore have found should justify "fudged facts", it would only be one more of the trivial nit pickings that hardly matter in comparison to your own distortions (like calling universal health care as it exists elsewhere a "Utopia" and "not truly free") and omissions (Not to talk about the humane and financial benefits of Universal Health Care ) . Instead, your "fact check" parades a conservative hit man for the health for profit industry as an "expert - only associated with Vanderbilt University" and allows him to make unreferenced claims against the film that are hilariously misleading or plain false. I have grown up in Germany under the universal health care system there and worked and studied medicine in Great Britain for many years and can well confirm that Michael Moore's film presents no "utopia" and that indeed basic health care is unrestricted and rapidly available for everyone. Your "fact check" again repeats the false litany preached to the public by greedy insurers and uninformed doctors about the "long waiting times" in Canada, England, Germany etc. without mentioning that waiting time for emergency access is shorter than in the USA and longer mainly for non urgent (elective) procedures - and this is quite acceptable. In the USA on the other hand, 47 million uninsured americans cannot get other than emergency medical care no matter how long they wait! The insured rest may also not get it because of a ruthless denial by some HMO cubicle clerk, no matter how long they wait! You even challenged Michael Moore to decide whether he would rather be seen in the USA or elsewhere for cardiac emergency care. As the National Institute of Health has recently concluded, an enormous number of cardiac interventions are done in the USA without proper need and benefit for the patients, possibly because of the wrong kind of incentives. I found the interview with Tony Benn in Michael Moores SICKO the most significant contribution: The British NHS Universal Health Care system was born during and despite the economic hardship of the postwar years because people understood that to take care of each other in such a vital matter as health care should be a human right in an industrialized country - and even Margaret Thatcher never tried to do away with the NHS. I can tell you from my personal experience in Germany and Britain that there are few if any citizens who would want to do exchange their Universal Health Care system for some for profit or individualized health care instead as it is glorified in the USA. America's Health system needs an agressive overhaul, bold vision and infusion from good examples elsewhere.


Dr. Walter Rohloff, MD, Albuquerque
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