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Friday, May 18, 2007
Ken Blackwell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Illusion of Safety:The False Promise of Gun-Free Zones
by Ken Blackwell
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Recent news accounts of the bittersweet commencement exercises at Virginia Tech University refueled debate in my university neighborhood and reinvigorated our search for the real cause of the threat to our safety. The debate centered on the need to mandate gun-free zones on college campuses.

Well, mandating college campuses be gun-free zones provides as much safety as holding your hands over your eyes. Danger is either there or it's not. Holding your hands over your eyes so you can't see danger has nothing to do with whether danger is approaching.

The tragedy at Virginia Tech-a trauma for the entire nation-forces us to ask how something like this could happen. How could a fatal shooting happen in a place where guns are not allowed? The answer: Gun-free zones don't make college students or their campuses safe.

Most people are rational and responsible. They are our neighbors, our friends, our parents. These folks don't use firearms to hurt people. They don't get angry and pull a gun on someone. They don't run someone over with a car just because they are upset.

The premise for gun-free zones is the product of wooden-headed thinking. Governing entities seem to think that without these zones, normal people like our neighbors would spontaneously shoot people. If our neighbors cannot be allowed to have firearms on state campuses because they might do something terrible, doesn't it follow that they might do something terrible in their homes? So why don't we outlaw guns from homes too?

The answer is because normal and decent people just don't do such things. They are not a safety risk in their homes or on campuses; and, they have rights guaranteed all citizens in our federal Constitution.

So, gun-free zones are not designed to stop normal, decent people. Instead, those who create gun-free zones claim they are established to stop criminals or unstable people from bringing firearms on campuses.

But the reality-painfully thrust on us with the tragic deaths of 32 innocent people-is gun-free zones don't stop mentally twisted criminals. The fact that carrying a firearm onto a gun-free campus is against the law or against school policy does not constrain the behavior of someone who has already decided to kill.

Seung-Hui Cho already decided to kill when he stepped onto campus that morning. He was ready to take innocent life, and end his own in the process. The fact it was against the rules didn't matter to him. If it meant anything, it meant he knew his victims and that they would not be able to stop him before the police arrived. Further abridging the rights of law-abiding citizens is not the answer.

Given that only one percent of our population is in law enforcement, when most crimes are committed, a police officer is not in close proximity. If an officer were present, the criminal would most likely go elsewhere. A gun-free zone means if no police are present, then law-abiding adults are at a greater disadvantage of stopping a demented person from committing murder.

As a former vice president at Xavier University in Ohio and a father whose children attended state universities, I care deeply about the safety of college students. We must have the safest campuses possible.

I'm not calling for the arming of professors or college administrators, far from it. The question we must face is, "What will make our children safe?" In answering this question, we must grasp one simple fact: The idea that gun-free zones are safe is a myth. Every community in America needs to have this conversation, and adopt policies and procedures that really create safer environments.

I'm surprised no questions on this topic were brought up in the first presidential forums for either the Democrats or the Republicans in the past few weeks. In three hours of discussion, the candidates were asked sophomoric questions such as what a prospective president would tell Catholic bishops or do about organ donations. The moderators did not ask the people who would lead our country what they thought about the most deadly mass shooting in American history. That's a shame. Leaders are defined by how they think and behave in the midst of crises and in the period immediately following a traumatic episode in our nation's experience.

The Founders of our nation got it right when they adopted the Bill of Rights. They understood that there will always be twisted or demented people who are willing to harm others. They understood that even the best external police cannot be there every hour of every day. So they gave us the Second Amendment. They trusted us and our inner police (the human conscience) to protect ourselves and provide moral order.

Perhaps the real cause of the threat to our safety is not the lack of gun-free zones but rather that too many of our campuses and public places have already been designated God-free zones.

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About The Author
Mr. Blackwell, a contributing editor at Townhall.com, is a senior fellow at the Family Research Council and American Civil Rights Union.
 
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OK Mr. Blackwell,
I agree, gun free zones do not make students safe. I am a little puzzeled by your declaration that yu are not calling for the arming of professors or administrators. Having a conversation across America about the issue is probably not going to solve the problem.


As long as you have anti-gun activists who want to disarm the citizens of this nation there will be nonsensical policies like gun free zones. Ask yourself how much sense it makes to have concealed carry authorization and being denied permission to go into your bank to transact legitimate business unless you disarm.


That is a common restriction on citizens who have passed law enforcement scrutiny and issued a permit to carry a firearm. Does it make sense? Will entering a bank cause a law abiding citizen to suddenly decide to rob the place? That is an asinine concept put into effect by asinine people who hate and fear guns. It is irrational. It is crazy.


Perhaps it makes a little more sense to be concerned about concealed carry in bars. Even then, the assumption has to be that a person with a permit will drink too much and shoot someone. How many times has someone with a concealed carry permit abused that right? Not many I can assure you.


Having a national discussion about a Constitutional right will only harden the position of everyone. Do you really think that I will be able to convince one of these hysterical gun haters that it is OK for me to go to a bank armed? Of course not. When they insist that I should disarm before entering my bank they just make me angry.


If there were armed, trained security personnel on campus at VT they may have been able to kill that lunatic before he murdered thirty-three people. If a student, faculty member or administrator had been armed, perhaps they could have stopped the rampage. Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't know.


I do know that if the idiots who are determined to disarm American citizens have their way, none of us will be safer. We will all be more vulnerable to these kinds of attacks. No, having a conversation about it won't change a thing. A gun in the right hands, at the right time, certainly might.

Gun Free Zones?
The belief that designating an area "gun free" will prevent someone from bringing in a gun and using it against others is so divorced from any semblence of common sense that one must wonder if those who hold such a belief are capable of rational thought at all.

When Islamic killers began shooting up their schools, the Israelies armed teachers and volunteer parents. The result: No more shootings. Good grief, how difficult is this concept?

Was it Willy Horton?
Didn't some famous bank robber tell us that
he robbed banks "Because that's where the money is."?
Well, these Prozac Warriors and Ritalin
Raiders shoot up schools because THAT'S WHERE
THE VULNERABLE VICTIMS ARE !!!

Mr. D
Your point is so true that RTKBA issues are my litmus test for politicians. Any pol who favors gun control will certainly vote for all foolish feelgood laws that enlarge govt and produce the usual gaggle of unintended consequences. In addition, it reveals a distrust of the general public, and an elitist mindset and agenda. No such person ever gets my vote.

A few comments...
Mr. Blackwell said:

"They understood that even the best external police cannot be there every hour of every day. So they gave us the Second Amendment. They trusted us and our inner police (the human conscience) to protect ourselves and provide moral order."

The police were not around when the Founding Fathers crafted the Bill of Rights. That being the case, the Founding Fathers believed that self defense was an inalienable right that belongs to all human beings.

The last part of the above quoted paragraph is also very true. The Founding Fathers based all their political hopes on the individual's ability to confine their conduct and character to recognized moral and religious tenets and they expected every American to obey the Ten Commandments of God.

Futhermore, the notion of having gun-free zones and expecting a mentally deranged lunatic or someone who has already chosen to commit mass murder, to obey them should be relegated only to the most slow-witted blockhead and idiotic morons.

Anyone who thinks that a gun-free zone is safer than any other part of the nation, should really consider seeing a mental health professional.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Anyone...
...who believes that someone who is willing and/or inclined to commit cold blooded murder and kill complete strangers for no apparent reason, would abandon his evil activities because they are in a gun-free zone, is an f'n idiot.

Commonly though, it is elected politicians who think gun-free zones are a solution to heinous acts of violent crime.

I think that maybe an I.Q. test should be required for a politician before they are allowed to get any further in government than a town selectman.

Clearly an alarming number of politicians have I.Q.s that are significantly below average. Our state legislatures and our Congress should be dimwit-free zones.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Comment
Gun free zone= target rich environment

Interesting reading if you can find it:
"Restricting Handguns: The Liberal Skeptics Speak Out edited by Don B Cates 1979

The book is a collection of writings by liberals (!) who OPPOSE(!) gun control.


Redhead
Willie Sutton.

Savetheguns.com
An IQ test wouldn't help much because the vast majority of gun control advocates in govt are not real stupid. They just have an agenda different from good govt. First, they want to get elected, so they cater to people who ARE stupid, or at least unthinking and ignorant. In areas like San Francisco and NYC, a gun control platform gets you elected. On the national stage, gun control is a loser, so folks like Giuliani suddenly shut up. In addition, and sadly, most politicians are power hungry empire builders. They don't trust or respect us flyover country common folks. Capable leaders like Cincinnatus and Washington, who are not power hungry, are not easy to come by.

Make Things a Little Better
I am a great admirer of Ken Blackwell, and I am a supporter of Second-Amendment rights. However, on my own site (click on name above) I often write about the "traps" we conservatives erect for ourselves -- and then fall into. Most voters in America want political leaders to offer their ideas on how we can make our lives safer and more satisfying. As conservatives, we shouldn't turn down that opportunity by pleading, "Nothing can be done!" Frankly, a lot can be done. For example, what solutions do we offer to the obvious need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally deranged and the criminal? If we have nothing to offer, then voters are not exactly going to embrace us. We need to establish policies that do at least SOMETHING to keep guns out of the hands of people who probably will misuse them. Frankly, a psychotic with guns (call him "Mr. Cho") scares me. What can we do to make things better? Of course, better doesn't mean perfect. Anyway, if you'd like to argue the point, or even agree, come to my blog. Thanks.

steve

LMAO
Iraq is THE anti-gun free zone. It is everything the author advocates. Want to live there Ken?

Mr Donohue
I think that the Bush Derangement Syndrome group is meeting down the hall at DailyKos. Why don't you go to Iraq and declare a gun free zone? Or you could actually address the issue at hand, gun control vs common sense, instead of erecting a straw man named "Iraq". Why is something this simple so hard to understand: is it not nuanced enough for a lib? Or do they all live in the city and have great fear of guns? Ever see an armed robber or mass murderer hit a shooting range, an NRA convention, a Police hangout? Me neither- they go for the weak target, the unarmed citizen, the easy prey.

Gently99
Good points! And you're right, it was Willie Sutton (who never hurt anyone during the commission of his crimes).

Regarding guns: Former NRA president, Charlton Heston, said it best: "There are no good guns, there are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people."

Hal Donahue
So LYAO as you leave. You have nothing to offer here.

The conspiracy angle
For the real leaders of the anti-gun crowd, not the shocked victims and survivors who are the point people, the goal is not to reduce crime and violence, it is to alter the United States into a different form of government.
They are willing to do anything to advance their goals, even if it means some "victims" must die to get the laws they want passed. They are against lawful concealed carry and arming teachers and staff for self-defense, not because it would be dangerous, but because it would work, thus derailing their goal of a different United States.
It may just be a coincidence, but it has always seemed to me that these "mass public killings" a;ways happen at a time when a push for new gun control is starting. That isn't proof, but it is troubling.
I don't want any person working in any school [except a prison school] who can't pass a criminal background check and if they pass that check, why not let them decide whether they want to be armed; or should they just have to stand in the door, unarmed and die?

CVN65
" Or do they all live in the city and have great fear of guns? Ever see an armed robber or mass murderer hit a shooting range, an NRA convention, a Police hangout?" Actually yes in error I will admit. You extremists fail to notice how silly one size fits all solutions are. I live in a city where a cop will be at my door within five min at the worse. Do I have the right to a thermonuclear device to protect my home? My other neighbors say no. When I lived in the country with little police protection and few neighbors arms made sense. As far as the NRA goes all I have seen from their ilk is pretend patriotism and false bravado - a truly good organization gone toxic.

ThighMaster
Docs are pleased so I guess I should be too LOL. On drugs now (see you can say and mean that for a while LOL) and hurting a bit but much better every day. Thank you for asking.

No I am not all that wrong about the NRA. A few years ago I started asking at their dinners etc how many were military vets or in the military including Guard and Reserve. Seldom more that a hand full present shocked me but in hindsite should not have. The second amendment is definately open to interpretation. However I do agree when a society approves violience and restricts access to the fruits of society there will be more violience. guns are just a tool nothing more but autos are tools and licensed and restricted so I am sorry there is moderation in all things. But then that is just another waffling lib speaking.

Hakl
Quite possibly your post at 0839 was the dumbest yet.

There are over 80 MILLION legal gun owners in America yet cars kill more than guns do. I don't hear you gun grabbers whining about banning cars.

In 1995, Virginia passed the "Shall-issue" permit over protests of whiny bedwetter libs who said that the streets will run red with blood.

Now, 12 YEARS later, our crime rate is way down because the thugs moved back to DC/MD where evil guns are banned.

I'll make YOU a deal. I'll walk around in, say Richmond at 0330, wearing my .45 openly, you walk unarmed. Let's see who gets mugged.

ALL
Check my blog for Ol Virginny's reply to RINO Bloomberg at today's GUN GIVEAWAY!

Hal
In my continued quest to educate, coach, and mentor libs who might be salvaged and brough into the light, here is a great site that completely blows gun control BS out of the water. Complete with facts and figures I might add, that back up what they say.

http://www.gunssavelife.com/

The supreme court has ruled
that the police have no obligation to protect any individual citizen or group of citizens, and are only charged with protecting the public at large and keeping order in general.

Home invasion scenario.

Middle of the night, you awake to the sound of your door being kicked. You quickly get your wits about you, pick up your phone and dial 911.

10 seconds have passed

You hear the phone ringing at 911, one ring, two rings, ...

15 more seconds

The operator picks up ... You urgently say, .."people have broken into my house, send some cops over right away" .....

15 more seconds

The operator tries to calm you down, she says ... "I see you are calling from 201 sanford street, apartment 32b, is that correct?".... ..

15 more seconds

you say, "yes, it's correct, get somebody over here right away" .....

10 more seconds

The operator says, "yes sir, who am I speaking with?", ...

10 more seconds

You say, "It's hal donahue, get somebody over here right away".....

10 more seconds

The operator says, "Ok, I'm dispatching two officers right now, they should be their in 5 to 10 minutes, please remain calm..... and remain on the line"

At this point, about 90 seconds have passed,

Cops should be her in about 5 to 10 minutes.

Then, 2 men with ski masks are in your bedroom. one has a shotgun, and the other one has a pistol. They ask you for your money and car keys.

You, knowing that the cops are on their way, comply with their request.

Another minute has passed,

they shoot you and your wife. They look in the next room, your young daughter is now awake and in terror. They grab her, drag her out of the apartment with them,

Another two minutes have passed,

The cops should be here in 2 or 3 more minutes.

ThighMaster
No problemo. It perfectly describes the scat that emanates from the oral sphincters of the liberals.

Cal
When I told my students in my NRA firearms class that the SCOTUS has ruled that and gave them the case names, they were shocked!

The cops arrive late in 95% of all violent crimes and it is not their fault as criminals oddly enough try to commit their crimes when NO COPS ARE AROUND! Gee, go figure.

Only a stupid liberal can't grasp that fact.

Kudos on your scenario.

Thermonuclear device?
I wouldn't classify a thermonuclear device as a firearm, so I would conclude that thermonuclear devices are not protected by the 2nd amendment.

Since I live in the Democratic People's Republic of Illinois, I was thinking about getting a taser to get around overly-restrictive firearm legislation. In my research I discovered some disheartening information: I need a FOID card to own one, and I need a conceal carry permit to take it anywhere. Blago can KMA.

If Blackwell wants to start the discussion, then my advice is to arm professor's and ROTC students with tasers. They are effective regardless of where the projectile strikes the body. They immediately incapacitate the target. They are non-lethal, which reduces the risk to innocent bystanders. They are limitted in range, and they are limitted in cartridge size, but I believe they would garner public support more readily than glocks in schools, and a taser in your backpack is infinitely more valuable than a glock at home.

ThighMaster/Cal
From the legal beagle who taught our legal portion comes these jewels.

After you have shot a scummy criminal and hopefully terminated the varmint, and you are calling 9-11. This is your course of action.

1. Tell them that there has been a SHOOTING at your residence and that the sitaution is under control. NOTHING MORE.

2. Tell the cops:

a. I was scared.

b. He/they said that they were gonna kill me.

c. I want my lawyer

d. Then...STFU!

Cops are NOT there to help you after a shooting, they are there to assess blame and the less you give them, the less chance an overzealous libstain DA will try you on crapola. Remember, cops get TWENTY-FOUR HOURS AFTER a shooting before they have to give a statement and they ALWAYS have a lawyer present.

Never give up your 2d, 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments, in your home OR your car (4th Amendment primarily).

GunnyG
Gunny I do not want to ban guns at all. I do want restrictions on guns just like cars, medicines etc. By the way Gunny I can almost guarantee you I will not get mugged been in worse areas.

housewar
Good point however, I'd venture to say that my Ruger .45, in either my shoulder-rig or on my hip, is more effective than a taser in your backpack.

BTW, in a stressful situation, when pizz is running down your leg, try fumbling around for a piece of gear. It ain't no fun.

An Armed Society is a Polite Society.

My advice for you is to move OUT of that nasty Blue State and into a gun friendly and less crime-filled Red State.

ThighMaste
You and those that feel like you do are fundamentally wrong.

Do you honestly think you can stop violence by removing or restricting a tool? Do you really think that if you take away guns, people are gonna give themselves the "I coulda had a V8" forehead slap and never be violent again? Unless I missed something and became a supreme being not a chance I can stop violience. I can make it much less likely that you will commit that violience with a thermonuclear device you have stored in your basement

You can't be this deluded. You cannot legislate morality any more than you can turn off a part of human nature with stupid laws and regulations. Here I agree completely now can you guys get out of our bedrooms and stop trying to force us all to listen to your religion?

The only results will be 2 million less instances of people protecting themselves and their families from criminals each year and the transformation of 80 million law abding citizens into felons overnight for nothing but a downright lie that removing guns will keep everyone safe. No one says that and no one I know wants to but I would limit your right to keep a thermonuclear weapon in your basement in the city

housewar
let's see armor piercing bullets, fully automatic weapons, where exactly do we draw the line on firearm issue. Grenade?

Hal
There are more restrictions on guns than there are on cars amigo. Ever get a background check by the FBI when you bought your last car? The NRA calls for ENFORCEMENT not more "feel good" laws.


Hal Donahue
Are you off your meds today?

Fully automatic weapons are already heavily regulated by the ATF. In fact, to own one, you pay a hefty TAX when buying it.

As for ANY explosive device, go ahead and get caught with one. Federal Law covers that.

Armor-piercing bullets? Who cares. You take one in the head, it doesn't matter. I'm more concerned with RINO Bloomberg's cops shooting people 20 or more times. Or the ATF murdering people seeking the Freedom of Religion at Waco.

HalDonahue
Restrictions on guns already in place
GUN CONTROL ACT 1968.

What we need is ENFORCEMENT of laws already on books.

Shooting in bar? Response by many: There ought to be a law!
Reality; There is a law in almost every state, making it a FELONY to carry a firearm in a bar.


Restrictions on guns, just like on cars?
Say there mr. Hal,

You say you only want restrictions on guns, like they have on cars and medicines. Is that correct?

To get a license for my car, in North Carolina, all I had to do was go down to the DMV, take a 100 question test, drive the car properly around a parking lot and about 3 miles down hwy 74, make a couple of turns, parallel park, use proper signals and passing procedures.

As long as I met the technical requirements, I could not be denied a license no matter what my political beliefs were, who I knew in the police department or on the city council.

Paid my $25 for a 5 year license. Bought my car, showed proof of insurance, got my license plate. Renew it every year by mail.

Again, As long as I met the technical requirements, I could not be denied a license no matter what my political beliefs were, who I knew in the police department or on the city council.

I can drive my car anywhere in the city, state, and country, and when I cross state lines, I do not have to give up my right to drive. I can drive all day long in Chicago, New York, Boston, San Francisco, and do not have to request permission form the local police in any of those places. I don't have to give a justification to any policeman anywhere as to why I want to own and use a car.

OK, so lets take the same approach with guns. I'm a law abiding citizen in North Carolina. I don't have a criminal background, I passed a technical test, I pay my $25 dollars, and get a 5 year renewable license, and I get to carry it anywhere I want to.

I can carry it in Chicago, New York, Boston, San Francisco, and I don't have to get permission from any policeman in any of those places to do it. A policeman may not hassle me for having it. I don't have to justify why I want to carry one.

How does that work for you.

Good Morning GunnyG & ThighMaster
Bottom-Line
All you Pacifist Liberals check the Murder Stats for Switzerland. If mandatory arming of the populace works that well for a country full of Nanny State, Brain Dead, Gutless, European, Communists, We should try that policy here. America would be crime free within 5 years!

GunnyG
not true do you have to carry a photo id which provides access to your entire life history to even consider operating one not even owning one?

I can go to my nearest street corner and have a gun plus ammo in less than 24 hours no questions

Actually fully automatic weapons
have been heavily restricted by the federal government and state governments since 1934, in response to the violence related to prohibition.

No new fully automatic firearms have been allowed to enter commerce in the U.S. since 1968.

Also, there have been fewer than a half dozen incidents involving criminal use of fully automatic weapons by properly licensed citizens since 1934.

There is a big difference between real life and what you see on TV cop shows and rap videos.

In The Blood?
GunnyG,
Does Hal Donahue have a brother named Phil? He spouts the same Pollyanna, Pacifist, Rhetoric.

gunnyg
are you really saying you want them to be ready when the revolution comes? LMAO

Actually, as I explainedf earlier i am on drugs so not at my best

Hal
You wrote: "As far as the NRA goes all I have seen from their ilk is pretend patriotism and false bravado - a truly good organization gone toxic."

Really? Their Eddie Eagle Program goes to schools for FREE to teach kids about firearms. In fact, in 1997, Handgun Control Inc put out a commercial telling kids who find a gun to "pick it up and dump it in a trash can!"

Eddie Eagle tells kids who find a gun: STOP! DON'T TOUCH IT! Get an Adult right away."

Which one makes more sense?

Restrictions on guns, just like on cars?
Actually I have little or no problem with that at all as long as you comply with more restrictive state laws where legal like mandatory headlights in reduced visibility

Hal Donahue
Really?

I bought my last car on eBay Auto and had it shipped right to my driveway. Gave ol boy a cashier's check and he signed over the title.

I got my Driver's License by showing my Mil ID and a utility bill with my address on it.


Georgetwin
If that pablum-puker does, his brother is posting here! HAHA.

ThighMaster
Actually they are awfully nice LOL but remember supplied by the lowest bidder.

Nuke was obvious (I hope) hyperbole. But and this is a valid question: what exactly is a firearm? Also, if I wanted to really ban firearms I would just really limit the means of production for modern ammo

Hal
So when a riot erupts like in LA in 1992, will you get advance notice so you can buy your gun and ammo ahead of time? Do criminals send you emails like: "Yo Dawg, I'm fixing to rob you tomorrow at midnight!"

My, how convenient.

Hal
Restrict the production of modern ammo?

No sweat, I shoot 30.06 and .45 and have about a bazillion rounds with reloading equipment. Have at it.

And you liberals wonder why us right-wingers have such little respect for you. Your posts are pathetic, quit while you're way fugging behind.

GunnyG
Sorry the NRA lost me long ago over armor piercing bullets. I listen to the local NRA folks(almost all chickenhawks) talk pro Iraq war and lets kill islamofacists BS from the safety of their arms ranges LOL

GunnyG
I know my neighbors and I know my city.

GunnyG
I have zero problem with your ammo or the guns the fit. They are not modern ammo

Hal, thats the problem with your ideas
Hal,

you say,

"Actually I have little or no problem with that at all as long as you comply with more restrictive state laws where legal like mandatory headlights in reduced visibility"

That's a crock, because the "comply with more restrictive state laws" invalidates the concept, when the "more restrictive laws says I cannot own or carry a firearm in those states.

You lose again.

Cal
And they are talking about making much of midtown NYC car free too. The more restrictive laws would apply to natives as well as out of towners. It is their town city shouldn't they decide how they want to live?

Hal, are you just plain ignorant about
firearms?

What do you consider modern ammo?

Did you know that 30-06 ammo is about 3 times more powerful that the stuff that is used in 'so called modern assault weapons'?

The .30-30, which was introduced in 1894 is the ballistic equivilent of the AK-47 round.

9mm ammo has been around since 1908. .357 ammo has been around since 1935.

Maybe you should do some research before you start to make these silly statements.

Hal
As much as you seem to know, you would know purchasing the weapon on the sidewalk would be violations of numerous laws, but why have registration because that weapon and ammo from the sidewalk will never be/was never registered.

I see it as a way to harass otherwise honest persons:

You need to read " Restricting Handguns: The Liberal Skeptics Speak Out" by Don Keats (1979)

Lots of civil rights lawyers, ACLU member's, all disagreeing with registration and banning.


2nd amendment
This is all a big waste of time. The right to bear arms, unlike the "right" to have an abortion, is actually in the Constitution. The left wing can cry their eyes out all day and night over this to pass the time, but it will change nothnig.

Cal
So a granadelauncher is a fire arm? THat is my point I wager some where probably on this very sight they have argued for an "extreme" weapon for civilian use. Just as some left wing idiot wants to ban life as far too dangerous. Where do we draw the line is a valid question. IO would want a tank on my lawn LOL

Hal, I'm sure you dont know this
The NRA problem with 'armor piercing bullets' is the way that the law was worded.

For starters, bullet proof vests are not bullet proof, merely bullet resitent. There are different ratings for different vests, some are rated to stop typical small caliber handgun ammo. Some worn by our military are great thick heavy affairs that will stop some rifle rounds.

Here is where your ignorance of this subject comes into play. Typically any rifle hunting round that is capable of taking down a deer, bear, elk or moose will slice thru a typical policemans vest with no trouble. Hence, you outlaw any ammo capable of penetrating a policemans vest, you outlaw nearly all hunting ammo.

Geeze, facts are real hard for you guys to deal with aren't they.

AZPhil
sounds like you would have no problem if i owned a nuke for self protection. LOL

There you go again Hal,
Hal,

It's apparent that you are probably not ignorant, you just seem to know so many things that just arent true.

A grenade launcher is in fact considered a destructive device by the FBI and BATF, and have been since 1934. Civilians are not allowed to own such things. Now are you saying that you know of people who can buy on of these on your so called "street corner" Can you show us a site with an example of such an item being used in a recent crime"

I'd wager you can't.

See, you really need to do some research before you just jump in with all these cliches that you like to throw around.


Hal
Your posts are getting more and more crazier.

I can lay down a base of fire with my M-1 like you would not believe.

I can pop the grape of a non-moving target, with the open iron sights on my 1903A3 at 600 yards and REGULARLY do that at the 0-1000 yd range.

ThighMaster
Not expert at all on ammo etc. All I know is when you shut down ammo suppliers and manufacturers especially something to do with primers many modern weapon AKs etc will jam after a few rounds. I have zero clue as to why but I do know from the field that is what certainly appears to happen. But unlike terrorists I am no expert on firearms and ammo

Thigh Master
Zero.

Cal
All I know is every city cop I knew was very very hostile to0 the NRA at the time and the NRA never even listened

Cal
But a granade launcher meets the criteria of the defination of a firearm. I really am nmot trying to be a wise azz

Hal
By "arms", as a rule of thumb, I think most of us are referring to something that can be held. That is, not tanks or nukes, but what the normal person thinks of as a "gun".

It still doesn't change the fact that the 2nd Amendment exists, and isn't going anywhere. And even if Congress wants to pass some unconstitutional laws, enforcing them would sure be interesting.

Hal, what kind of drugs are you on?
I hope you are not driving today.

What the heck are you talking

"Not expert at all on ammo etc. All I know is when you shut down ammo suppliers and manufacturers especially something to do with primers many modern weapon AKs etc will jam after a few rounds. I have zero clue as to why but I do know from the field that is what certainly appears to happen. But unlike terrorists I am no expert on firearms and ammo"

What does that mean?

Do you not even know the parts of a cartridge?

Obviously if you shut down all of the factories that manufacture the parts needed for making ammo, then it follows that you will not have ammo.

Under what legal grounds would you propose to do this?

Given, that people have the right to keep and bear arms, "ARMS" consist of both the firearm and the ammo. You know that you are really showing your lack of knowlege on this subject.

Kind of like saying "You can own a car, but gasoline will be illegal"

Is that your point?

Hi there!
My, a lot of potshots on this thread. Glad to see such compassionate "pro-life" conversation! That's all right -- living in the great plains bible belt, I'm used to seeing this kind of blind paranoia from people.

Even liberals like myself have to agree with you on a couple of things:

1) "Gun-free zones" are simply arbitrary and have no enforcement teeth. Hard to see why we bother.

2) I see no problem with one owning and using guns to defend one's home. (If you want to risk your kids accidentally shooting themselves, it's not my problem.) My understanding is that the original intent of the 2nd amendment was to allow you to fend off militia that wanted to camp at your house. (However, being able to carry concealed weapons everywhere is a MUCH DIFFERENT matter.)

This call to arm college campuses like they're military camps in the Middle East is simply . . . crazy and paranoid. I'm a college professor (sadly on a campus with a majority of students being "young republicans"), and I see a big problem:

How do you require faculty and administrators to carry weapons while forbidding students to pack heat? You can't. So you end up with classrooms with 50-300 students armed to the teeth, and it only takes one unbalanced personality to start an OK Corral firefight. Considering all of the writing on this site about the unbalanced personalities of college students and staff (because they are supposedly liberal), I can't see how you really believe students have the discipline and maturity to handle an armed campus.

Conservatives are masters at taking rare, isolated crime incidents and making it seem that everyone is out to get them. What bugs me a lot more than the thought of a house break-in is the thought of YOU being able to legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!

What Are They Thinking?
"Gun Free Zone"

So if you pack into a "Gun Free Zone" you are a criminal.

All "Gun Free Zone" means is only lawbreakers have guns here.

New York..."Gun Free City" because of Sullivan Law...

"Gun Free Zone" What a joke.

"Gun Free Zone" Best argument for carrying I ever saw.

Hal Donahue and Nukes.

One cannot "bear" a nuclear weapon, the mythology of suitcase nukes withstanding. Nuclear weapons are crew served weapons as are tanks, missiles, and aircraft carriers. Your example in the extreme to make your point is, well, pointless.

Furthermore, automatic weapons are considered to be "crew served weapons" by the military and this means that it takes two or more persons to operate and service the weapon. A .50 caliber machine gun is a crew served weapon, and as much as some RKBA'rs are concerned think it should be protected by the 2nd. Amendment, I don't. (They may be allowed under special circumstance, but not protected). However, the 2nd. Amendment protects the right to keep and bear any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun capable of being maintained and operated by one individual. Nothing more nothing less.

As the amendment is written, its tense assumes a right prior to the Constitution.

Hal, Hal, Hal
Hal,

You just don't listen, do you.

You said:

"But a granade launcher meets the criteria of the defination of a firearm. I really am nmot trying to be a wise azz"

This is where your lack of knowlege on the points you are arguing start to embarass you.

A grenade launcher "launches" a grenade. A grenade is classified as a destructive device, and as such has been illegal for civilians to own since 1934.

What part of that do you not understand?

Also, most of the policemen that I know are hunters, sportsmen, target shooters and NRA members.

The typical rank and file policeman knows the value of the 2nd amendment. It is generally the the police chiefs and commissioners who oppose the rights of the commoners to own firearms and have the right to self defence. These folks are political appointees, and use their power to hand out permits as political favors to the proper contributors.

Hal
But unlike terrorists I am no expert on firearms and ammo...

LOL! What a mook. Gee, all these years I've worked in the Military and now the feds and I end up being a terrorist.

Cal
The drugs are top shelf so perhaps that does explain my confusion and your fun LOL. All I was saying is when the high tech mass produced ammo shops were shut down and the terrorists were forced to use hand made ammo the guns almost always jammed after a few rounds and at this point I am not even sure what thread that was in response to. I am not even sure how I got into this but Folks it is great to be back LOL.

Good on Paper
Wow, really, you are a professor and a liberal? That is pretty unusual.

If you don't like the hicks out on the plains, maybe you could move to NYC or DC. They have harsh gun laws there, and of course no crime HAHA.

I like to see liberals complaining about the 2nd Amendment. It's like complaining about the Sun being hot - a waste of time.

Good on Paper
Your post is highly ludicrous and borderline asinine.

First of all, I was raised around guns along with five other siblings. Never one accident in the house. Why?

1. Discipline. Mom and Dad's room was OFF-LIMITS!

2. Dad instructed us in gun usage and we were able to handle weapons as long as he was present. By age 11, I had my first weapon, a breechloading 20ga for hunting.

3. Attended hunter safety and hunted with adults who SET THE EXAMPLE.

4. By age 16, I had a 12ga, a pre 1964 30-30, the 20ga, and a black powder Navy 44. I also reloaded my own ammunition in the barn. Never an accident.

5. I had an accidental discharge, and lost my guns for 6 months, never happened again.

It's all about HOW YOU TEACH your kids. I removed the curiousity from my kids in the same manner. They are never far from a loaded .45 and the wife's .38 and you what? They could care less.

Not so "Good On Paper"
Actually it is the so called liberals, (who are not really liberal or progressive)that are

" masters at taking rare, isolated crime incidents and making it seem that everyone is out to get them. "

The left are the ones who use the rare crime to try to restrict everything.

As for your:

"What bugs me a lot more than the thought of a house break-in is the thought of YOU being able to legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!"

Please give us a site where there is any kind of documentation that it is legal anywhere in this country to, as you say:"legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!"


I'm going to go out on a limb here, I don't think you can do that. Even in the states with the most liberal conceald carry laws, it is not legal for anybody to "legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!"

Unless I'm doing so in the act of self defense, such actions actually are "assault".

Try to be a little "better on paper"

Gunny/Cal/Thighmaster
"Hal
But unlike terrorists I am no expert on firearms and ammo..."

LMAO, sorry about that one; that IS the drugs. I meant I do claim to be an expert on terrorists I am no where near an expert on firearms

Hal
What kinda DOPE are you smoking, shooting, and/or snorting?

My hand-loaded 30.06 are almost match-grade and my boy and I turn them out like clockwork.

There is NOTHING worse than some libdolt yammering about a subject they know nothing about. Reminds me of a virgin talking about sex.

Good on Paper
"What bugs me a lot more than the thought of a house break-in is the thought of YOU being able to legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!"

Actually, "Professor", if you knew WTF you were talking about, you'd know that doing the above is called "brandishing" and a trained CCW holder won't do it. How do I know? Because I frigging TRAINED the average joe/jane to get the CCW.

My class motto was: "NEVER draw me in anger, NEVER holster me in shame."

Now, there is nothing wrong with drawing and holding it at the ready, not pointing "AT" the theat but letting the loser know you're armed. Several of my women students reported later that they'd done exactly that and the stalker/rapist/loser headed in the other direction.

Your ilk would have them be a victim or a corpse.

GoodOnPaper's Confusions.

"My understanding is that the original intent of the 2nd amendment was to allow you to fend off militia that wanted to camp at your house. "

No "GoodOnPaper", that's the Third amendment and it has been used as recently as 1982 in "Engblom v. Carey" regarding the quartering of National Guard troops in New York State.

"What bugs me a lot more than the thought of a house break-in is the thought of YOU being able to legally stick a gun in my face at my place of work or on the street!"

No one in favor of the right to carry wants to stick a gun in your face. They'd rather stick your ignorant and emotional argument were the Sun don't shine.

Hal, when and where did this happen?
Hal,

You said:

" All I was saying is when the high tech mass produced ammo shops were shut down and the terrorists were forced to use hand made ammo the guns almost always jammed after a few rounds and at this point I am not even sure what thread that was in response to. "

When and where did this situation supposedly happen? Can you give is a site, or is this one of those liberal "it could have happened" things?

Terrorists never have a problem getting high quality equipment, because they don't obey laws. Just as drug users don't have a problem smuggling tons of illegal drugs into any country they want to, terrorists don't have any problems sumggling weapons and ammo any where they want to.

As far as reloading ammo, that is actually a pretty low tech activity, and turning out reliable high quality products is fairly easy.

Good on Paper
Looks like you're another libsquirt who swoops in here and drops a load.

Professor? Well I'm flying the next shuttle mission and leading the Mars Expedition.

Paper Tiger
Right...sticking a gun in someone's face without porvocation is AT LEAST brandishing, and more likely, ADW. These are not legal in any U.S. state.

I'd much rather have a whole armed population who were knowledgeable about firearms, and respectful of them, than an isolated few criminals who don;'t respect guns, other people, or the law.

In the hands of the wrong people, a car, a 5-iron, a meat cleaver, or a ball bat can be dangerous. We can't ban everything because a few people are afraid of different objects.

Useless on paper
"My understanding is that the original intent of the 2nd amendment was to allow you to fend off militia that wanted to camp at your house."

Have you even READ the 2d Amendment?

A book written by Clayton Cramer, a REAL Professor, titled, "Armed America," completely and totally refutes the libturd nonsense about militia garbage. It seems that the 1600's-1800's the militias were formed by INDIVIDUALS who supplied their own weaponry.

Gee go figure, just like the Second Amendment reads.

Cal
Lebanon early 80's it was an Israeli idea from something the Brits tried with some success on them. Like I said my interest level was mainly in passing. But it had something to do with both the caps and the explosive material. Perhaps someone else on here knows something abouty it. In any case my interest level still remains in passing LOL.

Here's how LIBERALS deal with crime
by punishing the people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/ap_on_re_us/lockdown_zones_1

FRIGGING DISGRACEFUL.

GunnyG
The best perco somethings uncle can buy

Hal
You summed up the liberal's stance on virtually every subject under the sun.

"Like I said my interest level was mainly in passing."

Perfect. Swoop in, bloviate about something you know absolutely zero about, then fly off to the next thing that catches you eye."

In fact, that's what the limo libs are well-noted for. Are you Sean Penn? Cher? C'Mon, be honest.

Cal
I wonder what the police support for NRA is City and metropolition versus small towns and tiny counties?

GunnyG
Nope I am just me gunny and not ashamed to use my real name. And don't you dare take that tack with me you post on almost every page in this sight LMAO

GunnyG
Drugs must be wearing off I remember that all I did was make a comment that Ken might want to go to Iraq they lived that way now. I should have added except for some US military areas which are gun free zones for the military

Hal
Considering that the NRA TEACHES the Law Enforcement level training nationwide as well as host Law Enforcement shooting competitions, I'd say pretty high. In fact, ALL three of the instructors who taught the LE handgun/shotgun class I attended were all retired cops.

As Cal stated, only the azz-kissing politician types who make Chief anyway, are against the CCW. Why? It makes them LOOK BAD when citizens do the job that they can't.


GunnyG
Good stuff, G.

I, too, started shooting around 11 years old; started with a Winchester bolt-action .22 and never had an accidental discharge.

Curiosity is the main reason kids want to handle guns. That, and the fact that holding a gun means one more step to being "grown up".

You're not in jail yet?!?!
It's too bad you're still allowed out among law abiding citizens Mr. Blackwell.

It's also a shame your cronies continue to put you in places where you get to make mad money spreading your rhetoric. Especially after you yourself have become a millionaire several times over while in office.

How's your Diebold stock doing?

Troy
I don't get it. Is Ken Blackwell a felon or something?

Being rich is a crime?
AZPhil, it's the party line, man. Hate the rich, regardless of how they might have achieved their wealth (unless you're Paris Hilton, of course). I didn't know Blackwell, or that he's a "millionaire several times over", but his article had nothing in it to lead me to that conclusion.

A CHALLENGE 2 GUN GRABBERS.
A CHALLENGE TO GUN GRABBERS

Set aside the fact gun control and so called "Gun Free Zones" have been disasterous failures whenever attempted; here are a few “INCONVENIENT TRUTHS” that Gun Grabbers like this so called professor, known as "Goodonpaper", refuse to deal with in their Delusional Fantasy of a "Gun Free Society".

Fact #1: There are 300 Million Registered guns in the U.S. and an estimated 120 Million Unregistered. By the end of 2007 it's estimated a mind boggling HALF BILLION guns in private ownership according to the DOJ. 1 out of every 3 households now own guns, and increasing. Libs in big city Blue States have trouble accepting these FACTS, as they often don’t know any gun owners. But these DOJ numbers correspond to National findings, where in Red States, gun ownership includes a MAJORITY of homes. The DOJ admits it couldn't put even an insignificant dent in these numbers, if called upon to do so.

Fact #2. In the unlikely event law enforcement or the military were charged with the DANGEROUS task of gun confiscation, there is a major problem. Police officers and the military are overwhelming Conservative, and as such, believe in upholding the Constitution, including the 2ed Amendment. I should know. I’m a former Police and Military Officer, now retired. I’ve questioned many of my fellow Military and Police Officers, and ALL state that as a result of the law suit and public relations disaster resulting from the Hurricane Katrina gun confiscation, they’d refuse to carry out confiscation orders; even at the risk of their careers or court martial. All have told me that such enforcement would not only be Unconstitutional, but require entering the homes of neighbors, friends, and relatives, many of whom own guns, to carry out confiscation. This they could not do. Then there’s the risk of being shot by people like me who would not hesitate using DEADLY FORCE to protect their 2ed Amendments rights. The so called “war on drugs”, which HAS the cooperation of law enforcement, is a massive failure. Think of the failure gun confiscation would be with very limited to no enforcement. And an unenforceable law essentially ceases to exist.

FACT #3: The only alternative left to Libs is their ULTIMATE GUN CONTROLL AGENDA: Repeal 2ed Amendment, as was done with the 18th. But keep in mind the Volstead Amd. was universally UNPOPULAR. The 2ed Amd. has strong support. In March 2007 the DC Appellate Court ruled the 2ed Amd. is an INDIVIDUAL, NOT A COLLECTIVE RIGHT. Keep in mind the 1st 10 Amendments are known as “The Bill of Rights”. As such, they’re viewed as almost sacred, and far more resistant to change, than the remaining 17. So any attempt to get 38 States, (ALL Gun Friendly), plus Two Thirds of the House and Senate to repeal it is a Lib Wet Dream Fantasy. In the foreseeable future the fantasy of a “Gun Free Nation”, will remain a FANTASY; believed only by the DELUSIONAL and the terminally STUPID. It won’t happen in my lifetime, yours, or your children’s. I won’t speculate on the far distant future. By then it won’t concern us. Till then, DREAM ON LIBS. In the mean time, I offer this challenge: EITHER SHOW ME A PRACTICAL WAY TO IMPLEMENT YOUR FANTASY, OR SHUT UP! So far, no Lib has been able to answer my challenge. AND I CHALLENGE ANY TO DO IT NOW. And we now hear from Looney Leftist Libs the deafening roar of ....SILENCE!!!......LMAO



That depends on the technicalities
There are cases in Ohio Federal district court pending.

In his capacity as Secretary of State (SOS) Blackwell sent out regional SOS employees to rig the '04 recount. Two Board of Election (BOE) employees from Cuyahoga county were indited for doing this very thing.

It's not about putting Nany Pelosi in office. It's about our elections being rigged. (I've photographed thousands of ballots myself).

It's about Blackwell trying to force 88 Ohio counties to buy Diebold when he had stock in the company. It's about Blackwell telling Diebold to get into the electronic voting machine business in the first place.

And finally it's about a man who is so ambitious he'll argue for any position as long as it energizes his base. Ken Blackwell is simply not to be trusted.

With that said. I know I'm shooting the messenger here. However, I do agree with his message in this article. I'm more interested in putting his readers on notice and calling him out for what he is.

GunnyG
"As Cal stated, only the azz-kissing politician types who make Chief anyway, are against the CCW. Why? It makes them LOOK BAD when citizens do the job that they can't." I suspect that you are wrong gunny. Most city cops I know are sick and tired of drowning in cheap guns in the hands of idiots and tons of guns in the hands of gangs. Solution? they generally don't have one but seem to think they NRA is part of the problem and a home for "barney fifes".
And I still stand by my comment the war loving, terrorist hating NRA is full of chickenhawks at best in their state and local organizations. I always make a point to ask who in an NRA audience are vets, mil or reserve - a handleful at best.

Don't hate the rich
I dislike how some became rich and what some do with the power.

Blackwell is questionable on both counts.

DavidMac
As well as some great discipline. My stepdad once backhanded another man's kid for accidentally pointing a shotgun at him. The kids sat in the vehicle while we hunted and all 5 kids there learned a lesson! haha.

Bob Brown
How's that divorce with Whitney Houston going?

Actually, I'd like to modify your statement above. Certain people and groups can get rich and that's okay. Let me explain.

Warren Buffett is a flaming liberal who made his money stock-picking. Normally, any Wall Street connection is bad, but since WB has thrown in with the liberals, it's okay.

Drug companies who research new products (at less than 100% success rate, I might add), then profit from them, are greedy.

Oil companies who find, extract, ship, and refine oil, then make larger profits than normal when demand is high - they're greedy.

Doctors who charge their patients a lot because they have high malpractice premiums are greedy.

Lawyers like John Edwards who drive up said premiums with lawsuits based on questionable "facts" are okay.

Any CEO of any corporation who makes money is greedy.

Any liberal actor who makes $20M per movie to read words other people wrote is just "making what the market will bear".

Bill Clinton charging huge appearance fees is fine.

Ronald Reagan charging huge appearance fees is greedy.

Make sense? In LiberalWorld, it does!




How about a kook free zone?
I hope the following two questions are ask in the next Presidential debate.

1) What is your definition of an assault rifle?
2) Why was the 2nd Amendment included in the Constitution?

My money says there will be some revealing answers.

Those that believe guns create a hazard I have two questions. Are spoons responsible for Rosy O'Donnell being fat and ugly? Are shot glasses responsible for Ted Kennedy being an alcoholic?

Mike
"Police officers and the military are overwhelming Conservative, and as such, believe in upholding the Constitution, including the 2ed Amendment." That settles it and you know what I think you may be right after watching Generals Baptiste and Eaton speak out against Bush. That is good.

As far as the rabid NRA type they live in total fear and fearful people surrender with a whimper not a fight. It is the average quiet guy who will decide what is and is not worthfighting for not the generally cowardly gun nut.

No one responsible even hints at confuscating guns but you whackos go ahead and fear that too. Must be a sad scary life for you guys

Mike
A little long, but well-said. Thinking of the domino effect, imagine that IF 67 Senators agreed, and the IF 38 states agreed, the 2nd Amendment could be repealed.

Pretend that happens. Further pretend that the SCOTUS goes along with this. As you say, correctly, the very people called upon to confiscate guns from law-abiding citizens simply won't do it.

Bottom line - liberals should find another pet issue, like furloughing murderers, because this is a waste of their time. On the bright side, it's a waste of THEIR time.

Hal
Read this again carefully, since you wrote it:

"Most city cops I know are sick and tired of drowning in cheap guns in the hands of idiots and tons of guns in the hands of gangs."

Agreed - so you think if we add more gun laws, the law-abiding gang members will suddenly think "Oh, I'd better not break the possession laws today"? Hmmm...just curious.

Mike, Great comment
I agree. I'm in a liberal area of town. My car's been broken into more times than I can count I don't believe in wielding a gun unless you respect that if you fire it there's a good chance you'll kill someone. I know how to use firearms. But I won't use one against a thief unless I feel my life is threatened.

The right to bear arms goes hand in hand with the theme of the constitution. Know that the constitution is there to protect the governed from those governing. These days we might not fair too well against a tank but the promise of at least a nose bleed is enough to enforce the peace between our leaders and the citizens.

I can not comment on whether the right to bear arms was intended to also protect us from thy neighbor but we need to have our iron teady bears to protect us from our own government. The fact that most of our police and soldiers are not willing to fire upon citizens in peaceful protest in the US is noteworthy as in China at Tiananmen square soldiers executed peaceful protesters. It is important to know the difference here. Unarmed citizens peacefully demonstrating should not be fired upon. The fact that others have weapons in the United State guarantees that peaceful citizens are not brutalized by their government.

That's it. The civic lesson in a nutshell.

Hal
Gun confiscation is at least implied. If you want to make AK-47s and the like illegal, and there's no grandfathering, it seems to me someone is at least thinking of taking them by some means.

AZPhil
"Agreed - so you think if we add more gun laws, the law-abiding gang members will suddenly think "Oh, I'd better not break the possession laws today"? Hmmm...just curious." Not at all but that is not Ken's issue. If he wants everyone to carry as an answer please go to Bagdad they all carry there except for some areas of the US bases. That seems to help.

These discussions are always the same
The folks for more gun control or confiscation don't really have any logic or reasoning behind their arguments, just "feelings" and myths that don't hold up under much cross examination.

All this talk about controls and death.

Let's put things in perspecitve. Each year, in this country, between 100,000 and 200,000 people die due to medical misadventure.

What that means for you liberals out there who went to public schools, nearly 200,000 people in this country die each year because a doctor, nurse, pharmicist, or hospital worker messed up.

Accidental deaths, caused by mishandling firearms pale in comparison. Far more people are killed in auto related accidents than firearms.

I believe the liberals aversion to firearms to be a form of irrational phobia, a fear of inanimate opjects and a fear and distrust of their fellow man.


AZPhil
Oh I am almost certain some one somewhere is just like someone wants to force me to sleep with a weapon in my bed but not responsible people. But heck the issue helps the fearful and raises money so..... have at it

ThighMaster
The virgin talking about sex analogy applies directly to Hal. He's ab-so-frigging-lutely clueless and loving it.

Yep!
Right on, AZ. Haven't seen Whitney in a while, by the way. You should be so lucky to have a name like mine. There's always a little humor to be had at my expense. But, heck, life would be dull without it.

Re, your comment on the oil company profits....if so many people think the companies are getting so rich, why aren't we all rich from investing in their stocks? Same for drug companies. They're all publicly owned. I have presented the argument for quite some time, that oil profits and revenues and production, which all tie together, have remained relatively constant ever since the discovery of oil and advent of the early drilling companies. A spike occurred in the 30's, during the depression, and again in '73 when the market was artificially manipulated to drive up prices. But that manipulation was done by OPEC, not "big oil". As of today, oil profits average around 13 cents per gallon, out of the roughly $3 we spend. That kind of profit is understood to be just within what is required to sustain a company. In real dollars, that has not changed much in a hundred years. Meanwhile, Feds gain 18 cents of tax on that same gallon, and state governments reap up to a whopping 42 cents. Do you hear any lib clamouring about such obscene taxation? When I owned a business, I would have gladly exchanged my profit for the taxes I had to pay, and especially the time it took to do the paperwork to pay those taxes. Not only would I have made more money, but it would have been a guaranteed income, and I would have gained an extra 8 hours per week.

Hal is delusional
Hal wrote:

"As far as the rabid NRA type they live in total fear and fearful people surrender with a whimper not a fight. It is the average quiet guy who will decide what is and is not worthfighting for not the generally cowardly gun nut."

If anybody lives in total fear of everything, it is the "rabid liberal".

It is actually the cowardly pu-ssy liberal who is most likely to surrender with a whimper. It appears that the only thing they will fight for is gay marriage, legalizing drugs, and the national-man-boy-love-association. But they won't fight too hard.

Didn't mean to stray
Sorry, AZPhil, I didn't mean to get off topic. That irritates me when others do it, and I did it anyway.

Cal
Yep your point was proved when liberal sin ridden NYC reacted so well on 9 11.

ThighMaster
In response to

"It is actually the cowardly pu-ssy liberal who is most likely to surrender with a whimper. It appears that the only thing they will fight for is gay marriage, legalizing drugs, and the national-man-boy-love-association. But they won't fight too hard."

ThighMaster
There has not been on iota of fact in this whole page LMAO.

Fear your doctor
Don't fear your law abiding neighbor with a gun, fear your doctor.

Here is a site for my post about medical misadventure;

http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm

This information is from Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)

Doctors are the third leading cause of death in the united states.

ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
80,000 -- infections in hospitals
106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs
These total to 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!!

kind of makes a big fuss over a few accidental firearms deaths insignificant.

Fear your doctor.



ThighMaster
OK I should go take some more actually sorry

Thighmaster
OK I should go take some more actually sorry

Hal is an expert on
not providing any facts

Cal
and that data is relevant how? Let's compare car accident rates? or left versus right longevity or accidental death rates?

ThighMaster
He's not even worth responding to. We've busted him out...

Traffic Fatalities
over 40,000 people in the USA will die in traffic fatalities this year.

Better stay off the road Hal.

One of those cowardly AAA car nuts might run you over.

To: Hal Donahue
Hal Donahue writes:
"No one responsible even hints of confiscating guns. But you whackos go ahead and fear that too."

Here's a real "Hint" Mr. Donahue. When you submit a comment here, say things based on FACT, not on what you "think" may be true. Otherwise you show yourself to be an idiot.
FACT: Illegal gun confiscation DID take place quite recently in New Orleans, and confiscation was attempted in San Francisco under recently passed Prop “H”. Fortunately the NRA came to the rescue in both instances. So Mr. Donahue, you really need to do your homework before posting where others have obviously done theirs.
ANOTHER LIB SHOT DOWN IN FLAMES...... LMAO

Hal
Having spent 9 years in Japan I can tell you that guns are banned and highly illegal to own unless you go through enough red tape to balance the scales with Rosie O'Donnell on one side and the red tape on the other.

So, how do you explain THIS?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273555,00.html

PS: It ain't the meds, you're simply out of your league anywhere with the IQs over room temp.

Mike
Are you saying never confiscate even in a national emergency? WOW And what happened in NO and SF isolated cases and involving local government? You mean you don't think communities should not have control of their own safety and environment? You don't think State and national recovery plans allow and plan for control of fire arms?

Mike/T.M./Cal
Evidently the libsquirts in SF haven't learned anything.

http://cbs5.com/politics/local_story_136215501.html

I say that if the libstains in SF ban all guns, then WE, as REAL Americans, should take out full page newspaper ads telling criminals about the fact that all SF residents will UNARMED! After all, why shouldn't WE benefit from their stupidity!? haha.

Hal, Hal, Hal
My comments about deaths due to medical misadventure and automobile deaths is to put things in perspecitve.

You obviously have an irrational fear of law abiding citizens with firearms.

Let's confront your fears. Do you irrationally fear being accidentally killed by a law abiding citizen with a gun, or more rationally being robbed or killed by a criminal with a gun?

If you fear accidental death at the hands of a law abiding citizen with a gun, then you must logically have a much greater fear of being accidently being killed by your doctor, since the rates of accidental death by doctors is more than 10 times greater than accidental death by a firearm.

These are facts form the CDC (center for desease control)

In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)

Now, The firearms deaths that you need to worry about are those from homocide, 11,348. You will notice that the number of deaths from medical misadventure is 20 times higher than that.

there were 16,869 suicides with firearms, and you wouldn't have to worry about this if you stay off those drugs.

My point is that there is a chance that you may check out prior to old age eating you up, but there are more things for you to be worrying about than a law abiding citizen packing heat.

Now, how about you give us some facts, and not just your pu-ssy feelings and insecurities





Hal Donahue
Having reviewed COOP (Contingency of Operation Plans), I can assure you that there are far more important things to do than worry about seizing people's firearms.

Not to mention people like me who not only would NOT give them up but would consider any attempt to seize them as illegal and act accordingly.

Cal
Careful about personal attacks. We need the troops HERE confronting and crushing libstains, not banished to Siberia. I've been there once and just missed another trip thanks to the good graces of Josue who warned me to behave! haha.

One of the liberal tricks is to bait you and get you to personally attack them, then the girlieboys flag it as offensive, and BINGO! off to Siberia you go.

Fletch just got back, BrianR, myself, and a slew of others have learned the hard way. Be cool, continue to hammer thenm with facts, and then enjoy their personal attacks as proof that you're hitting home.

Call THEIR POSITION or STANCE stupid, not the libsquirt.

GunnyG
"Of the 53 shootings reported in 2006, two-thirds were blamed on organized crime groups, the police agency says." Sounds to me like gun control might actually work. But this isn't a news service so I am not sure the numbers are correct

Cal
You have me totally wrong I don't care how many guns you have I don't care at all

The delusional Hal scribbled
"Mike
Are you saying never confiscate even in a national emergency? WOW And what happened in NO and SF isolated cases and involving local government? You mean you don't think communities should not have control of their own safety and environment? You don't think State and national recovery plans allow and plan for control of fire arms? "

In the wake of illegal confiscations after Katrina, many states have passed laws to prevent this from happening.

#1 your attention span is pretty short, so I have to tell you again. The supreme court on several occaisions has ruled that the police have not duty to protect your or your family.

What that means is, if there is a breakdown in law and order after a disaster, you are on your own. It is a well proven fact that criminals will not give up their weapons while they go about robbing and killing after a disaster.

If you would feel that you would be safer if criminals knew that you and your family were unarmed during a period of social upheaval, you should make some large signs, that say "this family is not armed and we will not do anything to resist you. Take what you want" Put one in your front yard, and one on your car, and you won't have anything to fear.

Cal Oh not true
Suicide 16,869 and Accident 802 to prevent Legal Intervention 323 deaths sounds like a dumb bet to me.

GunnyG
If you reviewed reconstitution plans you know they were there as were plans to deal with those who resisted

Cal
"What that means is, if there is a breakdown in law and order after a disaster, you are on your own. It is a well proven fact that criminals will not give up their weapons while they go about robbing and killing after a disaster." I understand that you must live in fear but if your community is weak enough to let that happen then you would be better served to start rebuilding it now

Hal your irrational again
So you are saying that you are more afraid that you yourself would commit suicide, shoot yourself accidentally, or be shot by the cops than being accidentally being done in through medical misadventure?

Over 225,000 people will die this year as a result of doctors messing up,

16000 people will kill themselves, and you say that you are more afraid that you would kill yourself if you had a gun.

Well, I certainly hope you never get a gun.

Hal Donahue
Your post at 1459 (2:59PM) was the stupidiest yet. You quote something but are not sure and have no link.

DOCTOR John Lott, a REAL PhD, has debunked the gun control scam over and over. In fact, his 2000 study, available online, CLEARLY showed, using valid and verified CDC stats, that more toddlers drown in mop buckets than were killed with guns. Keeping in mind that there are an ESTIMATED 80 million legal gun owners in America.

Just curious. Are you into pain because you've been getting spanked all day long?

To: Hal Donahue
Hal Poses the question:
Shouldn’t government, Fed or Local, have the right to control, (read here “CONFISCATE”), guns in an “emergency?
Answer: Not only No, but HELL NO!!!!
Read the 2ed Amendment Hal. Then go back to sleep.
SHOT DOWN AGAIN! Aren’t you getting tired of this Hal?.....LMAO

Hal, Hal, Hal
Hal,

In New Orleans, after Katrina, police left the city, or stayed off the job en masse, leaving the citizens to fend for themselves. There were gangs of armed criminals going around doing some assorted robbing, raping, and general illegal stuff.

We have had major riots in major cities, Los Angeles for instance, where liberal minority citizens, (who are known to vote democrat) robbed, raped, murdered, and burned down business, while the police were helpless.

When that situation happens, feel free to wear your "i am unarmed" sign, and my family will pack a little heat, and we will both feel safe.


Cal
During the King riots in LA in 92, the libsquirts were trying to buy guns and COULDN'T! They were getting zapped by the very laws they voted for! hahahaha. That 15 day waiting period! The smart folks ALREADY had guns, as I stated in an earlier post. Only idiots and liberals wait till the last minute!

Cal
medical and guns come on apples and oranges totally completely different rationalities

Hey Gunny
You said:

"Hal Donahue, Your post at 1459 (2:59PM) was the stupidiest yet. You quote something but are not sure and have no link."

How can you say that. It was no stupider than any of his other posts, and none of those had cites either.

;-)





Hal
Get help, you need it real bad.

Hal
Hal - I just read this by you: "Oh I am almost certain some one somewhere is just like someone wants to force me to sleep with a weapon in my bed but not responsible people. But heck the issue helps the fearful and raises money so..... have at it."

All I can say is throttle back on the Percocet. Also, rest assured that no one on my side will ever force you to buy, own, or use a gun. We just don't want ours taken away, and there is a big difference.

Picture this analogy if you will: I think "Will and Grace" is stupid, so I don't watch it. But I don't conduct write-in campaigns demanding that it be taken off the air, nor do I advocate confiscating your TV. You have your freedoms, and that's okay, but I want mine, too.

Lastly, your Baghdad comparison is ridiculous, whether by design or unintentionally. To compare a constitutional republic like ours, with a stable government in place for over two centuries, with a capital undergoing violent transition after a long period of oppression, is the epitome of comparing apples and oranges.

Cal
You're right. Read his post at 3:23PM.

Cal/GunnyG
OK let's be totally honest here if I needed more firepower than I had I would go and take it and yes pry it from your cold dead fingers if necessary. It would depend upon situations etc don't think for one second that I am a pacifist

AZPhil
no cites again either but i believe there are several red towns in utah or some other red paradise where it is the law you must own a gun

Cal/Gunny
That would be interesting to see an unarmed man come and take away your gun. If this is attempted in the future, please try to capture it on video and send it to me.

Hal, you dont understand logic
Hal,

You don't understand logic do you?

The discussion has to do with things that make us safer as a group.

One of those things is the right of law abiding citizens to bear arms to be used for self defense, to protect life from danger posed by a criminal.

To have this right, there are risks.

Like anything related to life there are risks.

We go to doctors when we are sick or injured so that we may be made whole again. Any time we go to a doctor, there is a chance that things may go wrong. According to the AMA, and I have posted a cite for it, over 200,000 people die each year due to somebody in the medical business making a mistake.

But we recognize these risks and accept them rather than being paralyzed by the fears of something going wrong.

The same with Automobiles. They save us time, they are convenient. Certainly more convenient than public transportation. But there are risks. over 40,000 people will die this year due to automobile accidents, and hundreds of thousands will be injured and maimed for life.

We recognize these risks and live with them.

Hal, I assume that you drive a car and have regular interactions with folks in the medical profession. The risks involved in those are far greater than the law abiding citizen with a gun.

Do you not see that?

As far as police go, the police are eleven times more likely to shoot an innocent bystander than a law abiding citizen with a gun will.

Why don't you give us some real facts instead of your whiney mantra.

ooooow .... Jane Fonda Poster
I confess to having a picture of Jane Fonda as Barbarella burned into my brain, and even though she turned out to be a low life scumbag traitor, and I dislike her intensly, she still looked hot as Barbarella !

Forgive me ;-(

Hal's fears
Hal says:

"no cites again either but i believe there are several red towns in utah or some other red paradise where it is the law you must own a gun"

Actually, there have been cities who have passed such laws that are actually symbolic. They do not contain any penalities for non complilance, and do contain exceptions for people such as Hal who seem to be afflicted with Hoplophobia, (pronounced [?h?pl?'fo?bi?]), from the Greek hoplon, or weapon, is an irrational and morbid fear of guns.

No sweat Hal, there is always somebody looking out for you, even if you aren't lookig out for yourself.

Not sure which is worse
A liberal on drugs or off drugs trying to argue a point.

Actually, it's really hard to tell if they are on or off.

There are more on the other side
There are more places that prohibit posession of a firearm than require one.

ThighMaster
Well, I actually think Kennesaw's law is unconstitutional, too. Granted, you can't argue with the results. Like I explained to Hal, I don't mind anyone (including my neighbors) opting NOT to have a gun, I just want to have the choice myself.

I think Hal took his marbles and left.
It wasn't really fair there were more of us than of him, and he wasn't prepared for a real debate with facts and stats.

It's like the old saying, if you're going to a pie eating contest, bring an appetite.

Hal
It’s hoped we all can be civil and polite here, so I’ll do my best to not think of you as an Idiot: simply “misinformed and ignorant”, as are most Libs, on issues of guns, and gun regulations. So I’d suggest it would behoove you to become “Educated” on this matter, even though Libs detest the subject. As you can see, most of us here ARE knowledgeable about firearms. So, a little homework would help you to not look so foolish. Of course, you may be a masochist who enjoys getting verbally beaten up. In that case, continue with your ill-informed comments, and we will take pleasure in shooting you down in flames every time.
LMAO

reminds me of
There was a line in the movie "the life and times of Judge Roy Bean" when Roy Bean, played by Paul Newman shot the "original Bad Bob" in the back.

Some of the townspeople protested, saying that Bad Bob "never had a chance", to which Roy Bean replyed, "not from the minute he rode into town"

knife
I think Cal brought a knife to a gunfight.

A dull knife at that.

Thigh
Right - my apologies to Cal.

Most Town Hall Readers
I suspect that most readers of Townhall.com are going to be conservative.

I don't know if Hal is a regular reader, or just wandered in off the street, looking to get in out of the rain.

In any event, we gave him plenty of chances for a fair debate, I think more than we would have gotten on one of the democrat sites. There are some of those where they have a monitor who deletes any posts that disagree with the mainstream liberalspeak.

It is nice to have a debate with a well informed opponent who understands logic and reasoned discourse. maybe Hal will rearm and come back.

Not likely

Sorry guys took another pill
No where we you folks again.... I still am confused on your points. What is it you want? Since I am not anti gun by any means and you folks are loaded with all kinds of facts even those that seem to suggest a disarmed society is safer. And the want to compare medical risk with gun risk? And car ownership with gun risk? and then someone said Hal has absolutely no defense for his position... What do you think my posiotion is???

Hal
First off, your use of the word "loaded" above is pricless.

Our point is this, and always has been. Try to follow this:

1) The Constitution says we can have guns.
2) Some of us do have guns.
3) You can have a gun if you want, or not have one if you don't want one.
4) No amount of liberal whining will change 1-3.

Still confused?

For a guy who says he's not anti gun
Hal certainly has indicated that he is against law abiding citizens being able to bear arms for self defense.

He also seems to be against using logic to construct his arguments

Thighmaster
Someone posted some Fox news thing showing Japan had only like 50+ guns deaths in a year and it was almost impossible to get a gun.

I agree with part of what you say I could care less what you have in your house if you will stop caring what I have in mine. However the minute you leave your house you enter into the public and there you begin to affect my life and my neighbors. If you are in my neighborhood with a weapon I want to be certain that you are mentally stabile, know the rules to operate that weapon and have insurance etc. A gun is a tool but no less than an automobile it can be a deadly tool in the wrong hands.

ThighMaster
NO gun confiscations? Sounds like a matter for the courts but know little about them. Is their a NO left? From what I saw from the air not much

AZPhil
not at all. Brace yourself but I have owned handguns at various times.

Thigh/Hal
But Hal, we DON'T care what you have in your house!

Comparisons from other countries are pointless. The fact is, several million guns exist in the US, and short of, you guessed it, confiscation, nothing will change that. Writing more laws will not uninvent the gun.

Actually, the bill of rights
Enumerates those rights that exist outside of the rules of any man made laws.

The constitution and the bill of rights to not "give" us rights, it merely lists those rights that accrue to all people, and may not be infringed upon by any man made government.

And as our founders stated in the declaration of independance, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"

We don't get them from our government, they are ours, and "WE" give "some" authority to the government.

Note, that it says "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator"

Kind of makes you wonder why the liberals like to suck up to the likes of Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Che, and Chavez.

Just maybe they don't like that "all men are created equal" part.


Cal
"Hal certainly has indicated that he is against law abiding citizens being able to bear arms for self defense.Now where did I say that? Under certain circumstances they may be restricted yes i.e. martial law. Oh yes we may well bicker over the term law abiding.

He also seems to be against using logic to construct his arguments" Random facts are not logic and I did warn you I am on drugs today


I'm leaving for a while
Somebody make sure that Hal isn't out on the road driving while he is on these drugs. I'm not too sure about his stability.

AZPhil
Thigh/Hal
But Hal, we DON'T care what you have in your house! Oh ok then you will stay out of my bedroom and my wife's and daughter's overies? and let's see.....

Comparisons from other countries are pointless. I didn't come up with the comparison it was one of you folks not me.
The fact is, several million guns exist in the US, and short of, you guessed it, confiscation, nothing will change that. Writing more laws will not uninvent the gun. I think most people realise this and personally I could care less just do not tell me I have to have unrestricted ones in my community

Cal
Nope I am restricted to my home

What ThighMaster wants:
Along the thread of what ThighMaster wrote: I want the Supreme Court to finally rule the 2ed Amendment addresses an INDIVIDUAL Right for Trained, Responsible, Law abiding adults, to own and carry fire arms (concealed or otherwise), of the type carried by soldiers of a modern army; (specifically small arms / rifles and hand guns). And said right was ABSOLUTE and could not be infringed by ANY government, under ANY circumstances. The Supreme Court will soon address the basic issues of the 2ed Amd; thanks to Parker v DC. Should there be such a president setting decision, then gun control rants by Libs like Hal and The Nutty "professor" (goodonpaper), will be of no concern.

Hal
I'd be happy to stay out of your bedroom, believe me.

If your wife or daughter want to go stab your child/grandchild in the skull and squirt saline into it, be my guest. They have the right to do so - remember it was in the "penumbras" of the Constitution? As opposed to that tricky 2nd Amendment, which you would think would be easy to find.

I agree that some people should not have firearms. For example, convicted felons, mental patients, etc. Otherwise, if the rest of us normal people want guns, what's the harm?

If it makes you feel better, I have a rifle and a shotgun, and i also have kids. And both of my guns have safety locks on them, which only I have the keys to. Now, if some dummy chooses not to safeguard his own kids, well, don't paint us all with the same brush.

I hope you are back to 100% soon. Yuo said you needed pain meds, so i'm gathering something went wrong.

Mike
What ThighMaster wants: I certainly hopes he does not get.
And be advised while so many of the chickenhawks dream of saving the country when all goes to hell with their vast army of firepower that is highly unlikely. The weapons without the tactics, discipline and training are worthless. And I stand by my previous statement way back when "As far as the NRA goes all I have seen from their ilk is pretend patriotism and false bravado - a truly good organization gone toxic." Ask at any NRA function how many are military veterans, members of the Military or reserve....

AZPhil
That was the point I was trying to make earlier. Their are x many gun suicides and accidental shootings every year and x many deaths by homicide. The numbers make zero sense to have a gun for defense. Now if you are frightened then maybe get one but know you accept more risk than you eliminate. Also, I have zero problem with your rifle and shotgun. I suspect you hunt and if you want good home defense weapon the shotgun is perfect.

Thanks for the well wishes. I just had surgery and all went well I didn't expect to return until next week but seriously I am more than a bit fuzzy LOL

vacuums leak
You throw out God, common sense, and concealed-carry good folks, and what leaks in? Retards! Who said, "Nature abhors a vacuum?" A lot of those smart professors never heard of this fact. Killers and crazy people every-where; and you draw a vacuum? Life sucks, doesn't it?

Roger D.
and i thought I had the good meds? what are you on?????

Hal
Hal.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you’re not an Idiot and are well informed on Some subjects: (guns, the 2ed Amd. or the NRA NOT being one of them). Have you considered joining a discussion group on issues in which you actually have some background? I think you’d be happier and obviously be more successful. In this group it’s painfully apparent to all, if not to you, that you’re playing way out of your league.

Hal
Sure, but there are accidental drownings, plane crashes, shark attacks, lightning strikes, and car wrecks all the time, too. EVERYTHING in life - driving to work, slicing a bagel, going to a baseball game (foul balls), investing money, playing darts, surfing, or getting married (HAHA) involves some finite, nonzero risk.

As a gun owner, I have cut my risk practically to zero with the locks, which I carry on my person.

I'm not sure about your risk/reward calculation. (I'm getting the feeling when you use the term "gun" you for the most part mean "pistol"). This is a number that might be hard to come up with, but I wonder how many crimes were deterred because the criminal thought (or knew) a homeowner had a gun?

I'm not saying I long for a return to the Wyatt Earp era, but let's be real, too. If two muggers on two streets see two 60-year-old women walking along, and one has a gun and the other doesn't, I think we both know who is more likely to get mugged (and yes, the same could be true if you substitute the words "German Shepherd" for gun).

In an ideal world, every gun owner would know what he/she is doing and be responsible. (For that matter, every licensed driver, too...). Failing that standard, I think we have to take what we can get. Meaning, allow people by and large to own guns. In the same way as too many DUIs gets your license taken away, there are definitely those who should NOT own guns, which I alluded to above.

Mike
Actually I am quite happy in my fields terrorism, military and veterans I do enjoy some of these other topics in a drive by manner and I learned a lot today and townhall got an interesting write up. But I will tell you I was disappointed by the quality of argument nothing much new there. And no offense but from a guy on drugs you are not real strong on logic

AZPhil
Everything is risk but know even with the very sensible procautions you have taken on additional risk. Not a big deal kind of like smoking versus non smoking. The numbers were posted by your folks so I assume they are NRA blessed but they did sound correct. I used gun because they did in the data provided so I have no clue but suspect you are correct. Actually I agree that your push to your neighbor anology with the dog is spot on to my mind. But again the shepard wi=oukd not increase your personal risk where a gun does.

"I'm not saying I long for a return to the Wyatt Earp era, but let's be real, too." See you may not be but I can alm,ost guarantee you some here actually are.

Meaning, allow people by and large to own guns. In the same way as too many DUIs gets your license taken away, there are definitely those who should NOT own guns, which I alluded to above. I agree

Hal
Well, dogs have bitten their owners before.

Regarding ol' Wyatt and the gang, this is why I strive not to get the broad brush out in my normal dealings with people. Yes, maybe some do want to return to Tombstone, but not everyone. So maybe you're right, but I'm not one of them.

I used to get into more arguments when I was younger, but I find if you try, 95% of the time you have SOME common ground with the other guy. Then there's the other 5%, but what can you do?For example, you don't begrudge me my guns, but believe me, SOME in this country do. Yes, some fanatics want tanks on their lawns, I guess, but not many. By the same token, some liberals would be only too happy to start a government program to seize all the guns in America, but again, (I hope) that is a small minority.

Also, liberals on this site don't help themselves much. I have a B.S. and an M.S., live in a nice house, etc. But SOME liberals come on here and anytime there is a gun discussion, all gun owners are painted as flannel-shirt (if any) wearing, slack-jawed, inbred yokels with sloping foreheads. This leads to defensiveness and might I say a little bit of pissiness on those of us normal guys with guns. So, I try not to employ those tactics.

Hal
Glad to see you back. [That said;]

Since you are into frightening statistics, have you ever noticed the drastic difference in crime per capita between areas with draconian anti-gun laws and areas that do grant CCW permits?

Those are not just numbers, those are innocent people being murdered, raped, robbed, etc.
Did you ever consider the fact that people like YOU who support erronious anti-gun legislation are partly to blame for these extra crimes?

Firearms suicide?
When firearms were confiscated in England the suicide rate did not change. More people hung themselves but the numbers remained about the same.
Here in America is where access to firearms makes a big difference. Without access to firearms they tend to use autos by deliberately swerving into oncoming traffic.
Ask your Insurance Agent how often this happens.
Rather hard on the family coming the other way?

Missguided extroverts trying to be noticed for doing good often do great harm without knowing it.

AZPhil
Hey agree completely. And for the record when I visit a home I have in a third world country you can bet I have a weapon available.

"So, I try not to employ those tactics." thank you and I will do the same or try to

Hal
Sounds good.

Can you still say "Third World"? HA. What kind of weapon? Pistola? Or big gun?

MyOpine
I missed you and thank you. Hey I am an easy target for you today I am loaded with heavy duty drugs LOL

"Since you are into frightening statistics, have you ever noticed the drastic difference in crime per capita between areas with draconian anti-gun laws and areas that do grant CCW permits?" actually no but I suspect it largely reflects urban versus rural. I am far from an expert heck I learned a lot here today.
I am not saying ban guns but I am saying everyone carrying is not an answer either.

AZPhil
Pistola works fine for me. Have the local security folks on hand too so keeps me on my toes and makes me appreciate it when I come home and the crazies are far and few between

Poor Hal.
Hal writes:
“Actually I am quite happy in my fields terrorism, military and veterans I do enjoy some of these other topics in a drive by manner and I learned a lot today”

CONGRATUALTIONS! Hal finally admits to getting one thing right for a change. He admits he "Enjoys" other topics (i.e. gun control), in “Drive by Manner”. But Hal; in this discussion, it’s not enough to just “Enjoy” a topic; especially NOT in a “Drive by Manner”. You actually have to KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT IT. And your appalling ignorance makes you look like..... well, we all know what you look like. Hal. GET A CLUE!
Poor Hal. Shot down in flames;....AGAIN!
LMAO

But here’s a question regarding your remark on interested topics; i.e. “Terrorism, the Military and Veterans”. Can we assume these are topics in which you actually have knowledge? I’m a Combat Veteran, retired Military Officer, (05 Level), with considerable experience in the Mideast and Terrorism. So I’d love to hear about the alleged background you claim to have in these fields.


ThighMaster
"If I'm walkiing in your neighborhood with a concealed weapon (legal, mind you), what business is it of yours?" it isn't then unless you abuse it and then I want your head and all your chattel.Legal is the key word above.

Accidental deaths are not silly as you pointed out if I didn't drive a car I would not very likely die in a car accident. If I and my community choose to not have guns everywhere we should not be able to restrict their use? That logic gets me close again to my argument that I can have a thermonuclear device in my basement to protect my family

Adios
Have a good weekend all!

Mike
Careful guy... I touched a nerve about logic?

Actualy my background is very similar to yours and depending on the time we could know each other. Do you recognise the name? I use my real name and unless you are Ollie I can't understand why you don't use yours

Adios
Enjoy it Phil and thank you

Hal
I do not advocate a CCW permit for everyone because everyone does not have the proper temperament.
I think there should be one more step to obtaining a permit. An armed ride along with a patrolman on duty as a final test.
An experienced policeman can judge a man's character better than a stack of paperwork.

Accidents?
Liberals are at fault for most firearms accidents.
Liberals insist children remain ignorant of firearms safety.
I have been trapped in a position where I had to teach firearms safety to some VERY small children.
They learn very swiftly.
When you hold a firearm in your hand and talk to children they absorb every word you say because they want to learn.
I deliberately tried to bore the kids with technical details. They remembered the technical stuff too!

Bottom line?
A single shot, one hour course in firearms safety taught in our schools would eliminate nearly all firearms accidents.
Knowledge is better protection than any guard or fence.
You teach your kid to look both ways before crossing a street?


MyOpine
CCW verbage I have no problem with notionaly. Safety argument I do. It is niave if that were the case hell kids would never get hit by cars they are taught pedistrine safety often.