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Saturday, August 11, 2007
Kathryn Lopez :: Townhall.com Columnist
There is a difference between military men and women
by Kathryn Lopez
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During a recent Democratic debate, both Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama indicated that all female U.S. citizens should register for the Selective Service. Neither candidate was as ridiculous as former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, who said, when it comes to men and women being drafted, "What's the difference?" But the radical and dangerous implications of the front-runners' policies are not that far from Gravel's query.

The attitude the Democrats have on this issue has already caused harm to the military. Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, has been watching the feminization of military-personnel policy for decades. In an article for The Duke Journal of Gender Law & Policy, she explains that "gender-integrated basic training is based on the unrealistic assumption that men and women are interchangeable in all military roles. The concept tries to circumvent or disguise physical differences with gender-normed training standards that reward equal effort rather than equal results."

Yes, there are differences between genders, Mr. Gravel. According to one of Donnelly's many examples of the different scoring of supposed equals: The Navy has male trainees do a minimum of 42 push-ups for a minimum score; women must do 17. Men (ages 20 to 24) must swim 500 yards in 12 minutes, 15 seconds; women (ages 20 to 24) get 14 minutes to accomplish the same.

The radicalism of the Democrats' desire to have women in the military can be seen with a look to the legal system. In 1981, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the male-only requirement for Selective Service registration, reasoning that the whole point "was to prepare for a draft of combat troops."

Women are currently banned from combat. If we needed to draft Americans, would Clinton require women to sign up for the Selective Service in preparation for mandatory combat duty? Would you conscript America's daughters? That's the sad direction we've been heading in.

Under the Clinton administration, a Pentagon "risk rule" was eliminated, opening 80 percent of all American military jobs to women. That risk rule, prior to its repeal, prevented women from being assigned to units that posed a risk of attack or capture -- a rule that would have spared the life of supply clerk Lori Piestewa, a 24-year-old single mother of two (now 5 and 6). Piestewa's brother told a reporter that Lori felt that "she wasn't going to be anywhere near any type of dangerous situation."

But according to Air Force Brig. Gen. Wilma L. Vaught, it was some kind of feminist victory that she was. "There's been an acceptance of the fact that women ... are in harm's way and they are being killed," she says. "That is defining to me," said Vaught. Well, it isn't defining to me and shouldn't be to any rational-thinking human.

Sen. James Webb, D-Va., would be doing his nation a service if he made his rational view of women's role in the military his pet cause. I don't agree with Webb on everything, but the senator has written at length about the fundamental flaws with the military treating men and women the same. If he called Donnelly to the Senate and had her suggest recommendations for treating men and women differently in the interest of the safety of our troops, maybe we would realize that we shouldn't be drafting women: We should be drafting a realistic vision of women's role in the armed forces -- one acknowledging real and natural differences.

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About The Author
Kathryn Jean Lopez, editor of National Review Online, writes a weekly column of conservative political and social commentary for Newspaper Enterprise Association.
 
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What sterotypes
Maybe you haven't noticed men and women are different.

Ridiculous assumptions of equality
As long as women scream and holler that they are equal to men in all things and can do everything that men can do, as far as I am concerned, they can fight and die just like men. No more sexual harrasment laws, no special protection laws, no laws giving them ANY advantages just because they are women. No gender norming of tests or requirements in the military. They either meet the same current as the mens standards or they fail. No lowered standards overall in order to allow women to pass. If women cannot pass, then they fail. They want equality, then they should have....period.

To Robert and Stormy
There are tremendous similarities between the types of activities that combat troops experience and the activities that fire fighters perform. Say your house was on fire and you were trapped on the third floor.To be saved you have to choose between a squad of men and a squad of women. What group would you choose?

Selective Service
Ron Paul would end the Selective Service required of our nation's 18 year-old men. He questions why an 18 year-old would have more responsibility for fighting our wars than a 48 year-old. If you think about it, a 48-year-old would have MORE responsibility.

No Selective Service...Ron Paul 2008.

equal?
feminists want equal rights as long as they are
the ones defining what is equal.

A man shooting at the enemy would be required to
kill--maybe 6 out of 10.
A woman 2 out of 10.

YEP, sure is equal isn't it!

rober
Are you always "stewed"

Women ARE in combat now
The Iraq War has taught us the hard way that there is no such thing as a "non-combat role" for soldiers in a major counterinsurgency war. Female soldiers in truck convoys and logistics support missions and on patrols in supposedly pacified areas driving HMMVVs have been ambushed, shot at (and shot), blown up with RPGs and IEDs, and had to defend themselves with their weapons just as the male "combat" soldiers are supposed to. Because in the Iraq War, there hasn't been a clearly defined "front line"--terrorists have infiltrated even supposedly safe areas all the way up to the Green Zone in Baghdad.

In the War on Terror, with terrorism as the main enemy tactic, there ARE no "non-combat roles" for soldiers. No absolute guarantees the soldier won't be attacked and have to pick up his rifle and defend himself.

So how well are our female soldiers doing in Iraq? I'd say pretty well:

http://www.usarc.army.mil/63rsc/newsfemale.htm

There is more to it than
simple strength differences. I spent 20 years in the Navy and another 20 around the waterfront as a pilot.
I've seen many women on Navy tugboats, some were fine and a few outstanding, but most do not have the situational awareness that men have. They become a danger to themselves and others. Most didn't want to be there and therefore took a sloppy attitude toward the job. PC attitudes let them get away with it, then they get pregnant and cannot work there anymore so some guy has to lose his shore duty and go back to sea in their place.

Women have no place in the military unless it is in a support role as it used to be, that is where they shine and truly contribute as they always have.


Drafting Women
The Israeli's tried it and it doesn't work. Women do a excellent job in the military, just don't draft them and keep them out of frontline combat units, unless they can pass the same physical standards test a man can and they want to.

In the current situation...
Conscription in general is a terrible idea in the current climate, and in the war we're fighting, support teams can become combat teams at any moment. That said, we need every hand; I'm certainly in favor of letting women volunteer.

Israel ...
found through experience, that it is one thing to have femaled prepared as home defence, etc.
and quite another to employ them as combat troops.
I recall that they laughed at our political correctness as only a rich nation could witness their experience and continue in folly.
I cerainly advocate my daughter learning what to do in the face of danger, she laughs it off, nothing is going to happen to her!
I wouldn't want her in combat if at all possible. Defend her country, absolutely. Agressively make attacks against larger fierce creatures? Male lions chew up females every time.

Grow up
For every soldier in the field there at least 4 in a support role. My wife and I both served in the Navy in different ratings, while I was directly involved in combat, she worked in the intell community, thus freeing up men for combat.
And while she is my equal in most regards, let’s not kid our selves, she weighs 120 pounds soaking wet, and due to her lack of testosterone does not posses the killer instinct and, physical abilities required for battle. The military is not stupid, they understand these fundamental differences and utilize their resources to best effect. I believe there should be more women in the military, in support roles so that there are more men available to fight.


The conscription
of women is far overdue. My rights are defended by my service, therefor womens' should also.
Otherwise they should lose some of them, like the right to vote into office anyone who might actually want to deploy troops to defend our intrests.

Social Engineering
People pushing for women in combat roles are more interested in changing our culture than in accomplishing the jobs the military was created to do.

Been there, done that, can we move on
"Women have no place in the military unless it is in a support role as it used to be, that is where they shine and truly contribute as they always have."
And
"For every soldier in the field there at least 4 in a support role. My wife and I both served in the Navy in different ratings, while I was directly involved in combat, she worked in the intell community, thus freeing up men for combat."

Folks, I enlisted in 1978, I entered Active Duty in January 1979. My FIRST job in the Air Force was in a VERY non-traditional career field, it was in Avionics (where women had been working in since WW II) in was in DEFENSIVE FIRE CONTROL, guns and radar, and lots of other equipment like pneumatics, and hydraulics. Really "guy" stuff, especially the four M2 50 cal. machine guns mounted in the gun turret.

The school house superintendent (a Senior Master Sergeant) saw me walk through the door and took me to personnel (CBPO) to be "reclassified" into some other position. I was 5'4" and all of 96lbs dripping wet in uniform. I was also one of the top students academically and in PT.

I did not get reclassified, the instructors worked with us gals to have us work "smarter" not just with "grunt strength" I lasted almost 2 years in the field. My knees were giving out, another gal was in the hospital with a severe back injury. In 6 years, only a couple gals (not working flightline) were in the career field.

Part II BTDT, move on
I retrained into the Command Control (Command Posts and the like). Another job women were in SINCE WWII, just very few made it a career. As in very few women ever made the military a career.

I was in the career field for the reminder of my Air Force career. Worked with and for a few great people, and only a couple that I NEVER EVER wish to see again.

I deployed (several times) and at times, ya, I felt like "window dressing" (attractive - easy on the eyes stuff). One person told me, "okay you look good, but that's NOT why we asked for you by name, you ARE good, no, great at this stuff" (arcane, esoteric, classified, procedures and databases)

Women like me are serving all over the place and in jobs, no right-minded person would want to do, but has to be done. It's too late to debate it.

Drafting? Hard choice, I'd rather see a modified version of the German model. Military AND/OR Public service. Draftees are usually in low skill, (meaning quick training) areas. Specialized stuff - you enlist or earn a commission. Not every boy/young man does the military. Many on the "Public Service" track work in the medical fields or low level Government jobs.

BTW in WW II we came VERY close to drafting women, especially nurses, linguists and clerical workers.

Personally - Don't
Some of my last duty assignments in the Air Force were in Senior NCO leadership positions, including a stint as an "acting" First Sergeant. (What usually happens before you allow a Senior NCO to apply to be a First Sergeant and go to that school).

I had 70 junior enlisted and another dozen NCOs to assist in their care, (housing & working conditions) welfare, and health. Duty performance - the work center.

I think it was PREFECT preparation for having teens of my own in a couple years...

NOT every person has the aptitude, attitude or the ability to be in the military. Male and female, in nearly equal proportions I was still spending 80% of my time assisting 20% of the people to "GROW-UP," or other problems that unchecked would get them into serious trouble.

These were ALL volunteers, people that "wanted" (at one time or another) to be here, in uniform. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to have a draft. We weed out a lot of people BEFORE they get close to basic training.

The Army has it's problems with gang members and gang wanna-bes enlisting. No, have a "public service" requirement/draft thing and have ONE of the options be military service. Don't bring back the old style wholesale pour you all into the military, unless you WILL allow US (in the military) to handle the problem children the old fashioned way - discipline and punishment.

Our Women Against Theirs
I think our women should fight in combat roles or in harm's way as soon as the Taliban and Al Quaeda etc. put their women up to fight. Then and only then would it be an equal match.

Listen to those who know
Our military leaders who have been around any length of time will tell you women do not need to be in combat rolls. Women can serve in support rolls but why put their life and the lives of men in danger by putting them in situations they can not handle. The same is true for weak men. If he weighs in at 100 lbs. and can not lift the back pack, he does not go to combat or even allowed to serve. THe whole thing is silly, and goes against all common sense. Its political correctness gone wild. The likes of Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi who would not know one end of a weapon from the other, need to keep out of issue where they can only do harm.

Let's look at TruLib's latest post...
"TruLib writes:

Social Engineering People pushing for women in combat roles are more interested in changing our culture than in accomplishing the jobs the military was created to do."

Have we thought at all about what society will scream as more and more women come home in body bags?

This could be a ploy by those who do not want the US to have a military at all. Get the citzenry riled up about dead women returning home from the war, and then you will see rioting in the streets!


The "draft" is a slang term...
...the proper term is "Selective Service".That means that the government selects those who best fit it's need.If they need combat troops,they select men.If they need doctors they select doctors.But the draft should be reserved for men because the military is not (and should not be)a social experiment.It exists for the protection of our country,which is too important for politicians and ideological pop-in-jays to play their games.There are more men who have two young children at home that are available for the defense of our country than there are mothers who have two young children at home.

If women are conscripted...
...it will precipitate another "Baby Boom" about nine months later.

Just as JFK's executive order in 1963 that deferred married men and fathers prompted an increase in marriage and parenthood, its subsequent rescission by LBJ in 1965 with another executive order caused the rate of marriage and birth to return to pre-1963 levels.

A form of "Universal Service" would be very useful to the nation and the individual, but the reinstitution of the military draft, the "Blood Tax", to include women is counter productive.

Bucko, US Army, 1967-1975.

Robert, you know,...
...that I have never known a person who has actually shouldered a backpack and weapon in jungle or desert heat to refer to a civilian as a "chickenhawk". Hawk or Dove maybe. I reckon that only "chicken-doves" use the term chickenhawk.

"You know the chicken hawks." (Robert)

A Bad Idea
For every exception Robert and others can cite there are a thousand examples of women who simply cannot do the physical things required for combat. And that does not take into account pregnancies, competition among men for the affections of women and the distractions they cause.

Putting women in combat is a bad idea. Lowering standards to accomodate a particular group, whether in the military, in firefighting or in academia, always produces bad results.

We need to deep six this notion right now.

Robert
It is physically impossible to train women to the same level as men. To argue otherwise is moronic. Were that the case there would be women playing proffessional football. Anecdotal evidence of a woman besting a man in single combat can have no bearing on policy. If you take one group of women and one group of men and train them equally you will not end up with comparable fighting units.

In addition you failed to answer the question in my post at 6:26. In addition to that you have no idea of our comparative levels of experience. No one ever took my gun away because I never let them get that close. You don't have to worry about humpin the pack when you spend the day sitting in the door of a Huey.

Women in combat
Is an extremely stupid idea. Some women may be able to handle it, but that's not the point. They were not designed by God for combat. Too many of those in combat now (I know, it's illegal for women to be in combat, but explain how they're being killed in Iraq if that isn't combat) leave behind small children and babies. What sort of a society sends mothers to war? Are you people all so ignorant of the differences in the physical, psychological and emotional make-up that you see no fundamental differences between men and women? NEVER draft women for the military. If they volunteer to serve in non-combat occupations as in WWII, that's well and good. But drafting women is immoral.

The whole idea of social engineering our military does nothing but weaken it. I was in the paratroops during the early 1970s when women were first allowed in. Their physical requirements were horrendously reduced so as to qualify them. Their answer was that women skydive, but anyone with any intelligence and a half-way bit of knowledge about the airborne military knows there is a substantial difference between the single jumper coming down "hollywood" in a controllable chute for a "stand up" landing is a much different animal that a mass exit of airborne troops carrying heavy loads (even if it's just the heavier parachute gear itself), with a fast descending non-steerable 'chute and impacting the ground with the force of a jump from about 10' up. They skydiver can be an old granny with no physical fitness, but don't try that with a T-10 (or even the new-at-the-time MC1-1 semi-steerable chutes) out of a C-130! Yet the military put the women there and gave them jump wings when they never qualified for the physical fitness.

It's the same now; social engineering is killing out military readiness.

I don't believe that...
...Robert's example is actually true to his own personal knowledge. A trained female, against a trained male that was her body mass plus half would lose her fight. If the man was untrained and wounded, or sick, she may overpower him, but that does not prove the worth of women in combat. I think that he made up that anecdote for the sake of argument and only outed his own ignorance of actual physical combat. Yes, I am calling "Robert" a liar. And a God damn one at that!

Bluepiper
The only logical reason to jump out of an airplane is if it is on fire. I told that to the Sgt. trying to get me to go into the Rangers. He did not think it was funny.

A woman in combat...
...is like a man in a tutu; it's only good for comedy relief.

As someone noted above, the reasons are too long to list why a woman has no place on the battlefield. But to add a few:

A grunt works around the enemy's schedule which rules out regular rest periods. Rest is a very rare luxury in a combat unit, and sometimes it doesn't come for weeks. It's all about physical strength and endurance. All of us literally carried our weight.

For four months of my tour in Nam, I carried a 36 pound machine gun plus six hundred rounds of ammo along with water and other critical gear. Its combined weight was just over a hundred pounds. Then we "humped" day and night over all kinds of terrain. Now do this with very little sleep, and at times, run with it for several hundred yards while being shot at.

Can you say "humped" in today's military? Standard language in a combat unit can kill plants.

Combat soldiers sometimes can't bathe for weeks, and those tiny body parasites become personal pets. I went 4 months before having a bath, and that was only because I got wounded. I woke up clean after finally becoming conscious (after four days).

Body wastes are eliminated wherever you're standing. You just take a few steps away and do your business. There is no modesty in a combat unit.

Catch an intestinal bug? Lacking control, you just do it in your drawers until it can be treated, and know that you aren't going to be sent to the rear area for said treatment. You and your weapon are needed, and a bad case of the sh**s is no reason to be taken out of the squad. You're given pills the size of jawbreakers then you keep your fingers crossed that they work.

Consider that I haven't mentioned actual fighting. It's more demanding than all of the above.






Marlin Newburn
You have made us door gunners look like a passle of p*ssies. I offer you a very crisp salute. I also hope that your injuries have healed and that you have been able to put 'Nam' where it belongs.

You're so right, Bluepiper.
I was in the airborne and today, its been basically reduced to straight-leg status with women wearing jump wings. You can watch a news program today and along with women, you will actually see fat (overweight) paratroopers.

I went through jump school in 67' and the washout rate was high due to the demands of the airborne culture. Upon graduation from jump school, one had the feeling of tremendous accomplishment. Too bad for the young man today who strives to be personally tested because that's all been eliminated.

I guess that in jump school today, when a jump school Tac NCO yells, "C'MON, GIRLS, MOVE YOUR A**ES!!!!", he is being accurate.

Robert
You still haven't answered my question from 6:26.

The Problem is the Definition of Equal
When Cardinal George replaced the liberally bent late Cardinal Bernadine in Chicago, the media bombarded him with questions like "Will you continue to advance the equal role of women in the Church as your predicessor did?"

Cardinal George gave perhaps the best retort I have ever heard on this issue (and which applies directly to this topic) when he answered: "I believe that there is an equally important role for women in the Church, but EQUAL DOES NOT MEAN INTERCHANGABLE"

If women and men were truly interchangable, then there would be no need for geneder specific categories in the Olympics. Men and women would race, lift weights, swim, shot-put, pole vault, high jump, long jump, etc. together. Of course, in all such events, all the records would forever be held by men.

THe only event that women would possible excell in, is the uneven bars, because of God's give to women of internal plumbing.

Thanks, TruLib,
and "yes" to both. It was the most amazing time of my life, and the lessons learned back then have served me all of my days (thus far). My college degrees are well below the pride I take in my military service.

Airborne All The Way!

Robert,...
...you're not worth the effort of a reply.
You're a cipher, a zero, a zilch. Have a nice day.

Oh, I forgot"
Women would also excell in the balance beam for the plumbing part, as well as their lower center of gravity having nowhere near the same upper-body strength.

The purpose of war, like the Olympics is to win. If you have to field an army, you select the best even if someone's feelings are going to get hurt.

War, as others here have correctly observed, does not ovey the rules of PC or gender equality. The enemy does not have to abide by Title IX.

Robert should not make assumptions:
Robert said: "I dont care who comes for me...they just need to be capable of getting me out, and the assumption is if they wear the uniform they are."

But since the physical requirements for women in the fire department are lower then their male counterparts, the assumption that they could physically lift your incapacitated body on their shoulders and carry you out may be fatally flawed.

Robert
Anyone in their right mind is going to say 'THE MEN'. To say otherwise is to have a politically correct death wish. Of course the denial of reality is the basis for pushing cr*p like this down our throats.

Robert, for your sake if your house does catch fire I hope a bunch of burly men show up to save you and that they do a good job. To wish otherwise would be mean and small minded.

Past experiences: women in the military
In the interest of gender equity an "Amazon Battalion" should be formed. However, like most progressive programs this one may prove problematic. Women possess 62% of a man’s strength, and have a pain thresh hold 28% lower than same. In addition, almost without exception they decline employment within all the world's most dangerous professions. It was so even in my great grandfather’s day.
In 1917 the Russian socialist Alexander Kerensky had trained what was designated "The Women's Battalion of Death," under the leadership of the feminist general, Maria Bochkareva. In her diary the English nurse, Florence Farmborough--then serving on the Eastern front--wrote that when the women were ordered out of their trenches into a hail of German lead, some "did go 'over the top.' But not all of them. Some remained in the trenches, fainting and hysterical, others ran or crawled to the rear. Bachkarova retreated with her decimated battalion; she was wrathful, and heartbroken, but she had learnt (sic) a great truth: women are unfit to be soldiers.”
This should be the final word regarding women in combat zones. But in the world of postmodern America, where no lessons are ever learned, why not form a “Woman’s Battalion.” The Pentagon could then parachute them into the mountains of Afghanistan, from whence it could monitor their fortunes Chris

The Differences and the Samenesses
Certainly, males and females are different in the physical body. That is too obvious to even discuss; we just don't, as a class, have the same muscular strength. But we do have the endurance. It seems to me we get tired less quickly. I'm not sure, but I never knew a guy who didn't get tired faster than I do. (I am a very energetic person.) But I can't do the real lifting. (Of course, I am getting up in years too.) I know some older women who go like the energizer bunny when I flag.

On the other hand, psychologically, I think that, while *individuals* vary from A to Z, then *as a class* males and females are innately about the same.

But *this* is the *important* point: We human beings are *identical* in one respect: God has endowed each and every one of us a set of *rights.*

Among these God-given rights are life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness. Involuntary servitude is an infringement of these rights. The draft is involuntary. The draft is servitude. Therefore the draft is involuntary servitude, and compulsory registration for a possible draft is involuntary servitude.

Therefore, I oppose the draft, *and* selective service registration for women...*AND* for men.

I would like to call for a universal boycott of draft registration. When it began I was past the age, and, of course I am female, but I made it plain that had I been required to register, I would not have done so, and I sure as heck would not go if drafted.

I have to wonder if they may someday have the colossal gall to draft seniors. My career was in the health care field, so who knows, maybe I will be the first old woman draft dodger...???

Waaaay coooool...

Ron Paul is the only major party candidate who can be *relied* upon to have a sane policy on this issue and a sane international policy.

Please see my blog: http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com


If I were on
A guided missle frigate that has been torpedoed in the engine room, and it was on fire, I sure as hell do not want a girl that is 5 foot 2 and 125 pounds trying to pull me out of there. How about a 190 pound guy that can carry 200lbs routinely? Armies are not a social experiment to make folks feel good. We kill people and break things.

Uh, Robert....
Your misuse of analogy is common for all leftists and readers of your posts should talke note of that.

Your fantasies about the future of the military in regard to the ease in which combat duty will become borders on the delusional. Among other things, it would take a very cooperative enemy to make your dreams come true.

The experiments with political correctness in the military will continue and because of it, people will die far beyond that which is inevitable in battle. Feel-good social engieering will result in an increase in the death toll for our side.

Our enemies throughout the generations have far surpassed anything our culture can imagine in the way of brutality and barbarism, and the Islamofacist is right up there among the most hideous. It takes a young, tough man to take him down.

btw: Do you recall the female peace-nut a few years ago who went you in front of an American patrol, and pointed out to the enemy where the patrol was located? I don't know what eventually happened to her, but any man in my unit would have put a bullet in her, including me.

Too mean? Get a skirt. Then again, maybe you're already wearing one.


Add this
If a woman couldn't bathe for even a month, the whole countyside could smell her coming. Hate to be so rude, but a woman also has to drop her pants EVERYTIME she goes to the toilet. Also she has a period once a month, even if she's on birth control. The thought of an unwashed woman makes me want to gag.

Also there are already whines of sexual harassment from the women in the service.

She is also subject to rape (more than likely) if she is captured.

Men have the tendency to protect women, and would put themselves in more danger trying to do so.
No. women should not be in combat. Not just because they are much weaker(which they are) but because of these other things.

jamie says
"Armies are not a social experiment to make folks feel good. We kill people and break things."

You're 100% correct. The people that push the gender = in the military are the same ones that hate the military. It's just another method to destroy it.

They just don't get it. I guess it's because so many Nations get along fine in the world today with little or no military backing them. One thing the pacifists don't understand, if the US miltary wasn't policing the world, things would be so bad even Hollywood couldn't write a script for it.

Oh Boy!
Just when I think HC and Obama can't get any dumber they actually do! While women can have a role in the military and do often play an important one it will never be the primary one due to physicalities. Don't even try to bring up that old saw about the Israeli's. Women do spend two years in the military but are not allowed in evey position due to guess what?...Physicalities.

No Place for Women?
I wonder what you old soldiers on here think about my daughter getting a full naval scholarship? She will not be in combat though, but she will have to do combat training to an extent. she has to finish college first though.

Just curious...
How many of you that are of the opinion that the girls are inferior soldiers outside of the wire have ever actually been outside of the wire with the girls?

Glad I served
In the last generation who could tell the difference between men and women.

Women have always served along with men but in roles that show the folks back then understood you have no power to change nature.

The arrogance of the day seems to allow some to think they can.

If they are going to demand women serve in combat roles, I say let those women all be placed into an infantry division made up of just women.
Then allow them to prove themselves if they are equal to the task, just as men do.

That will answer the question and end all arguments.

The utter contempt for the laws of nature is what the problem is in my view.
Let women serve in the roles they always have traditionally.

Otherwise, do not make men carry them into combat and let women have their own divisions.


What is truely

Sad about co-equality among training and service, placing men and women together today, is how often one hears of the sexual problems that happen from pitting nature against rules.

No stronger drive on earth in humans than the sexual one, and young get tested at the height of it to see if they can live under rules against temptation not even necessary to be tested on and is distracting.

Distracting by nature not evil


Lolo
Good for your daughter! As long as she stays in the rear with the gear and does her job, she'll gain respect from her peers as well as serve her country.

I'm reminded of the time several of my buddies and I were coming out of an Army hospital (Ft. Knox, Kentucky) after another daily round of physical therapy. Those of us who weren't in wheelchairs were hobbling on crutches. A WAC (female) colonel who we didn't see was coming up the walk and stopped us in our tracks because we didn't stop and come to attention with a salute.

She went off on us like a pink howitzer.

After we did our best to comply, she stormed off after which we all flashed that horse's patoot the bird.

Please tell your daughter this story and warn her never to play garrison (rear area) games with fighting men. It's bad enough on the line without coming back and having to put up with some paranoid toy soldier trying to act tough.

Marlin Newburn
I will relay that story. She is not that type though. She will be in the rear in a sense. Combat will not be her area of specialty. She is a linguist and historian so I bet you can imagine what she likes. She didn't fall for the GI Jane movie, believe me. She is an avid anti-feminazi!

Marlin Newburn
P.S. that 'pink' howizter line had me rolling! LOL! Quite frankly I feel sorry for women who feel the need to think they have to prove they have cohones.

you will
have to forgive Robert, he is usually stewed!

how about this
Put Rosie O'donnell types in, then we could scare the enemy.

It is all about
prosecuting a war in as short a period of time, as successfully, and with as little loss of life to our side as is possible, should it come to that.

Any course of action that has the material effect of enhancing our capabilities is a good thing. Any thing contrary to this objective is morally repugnant. The privilege of serving in the military is precisely that, a privilege. No one has the right to serve. Political correctness and gender norming should not even be an issue. Any one with a modicum of common sense can figure it out, which thing speaks volumes for our serial poster.

It would be highly instructive for someone to take him outside, show him a hole in the ground and point out the difference to him, for he doesn't have a clue.

The blind misleading the blind
marine writes: Saturday, August, 11, 2007 4:48 PM
It is all about
prosecuting a war in as short a period of time, as successfully, and with as little loss of life to our side as is possible, should it come to that.

The desire to draft women is just a new ploy in the game of "ending the war" by opposition to a draft. You very good and relavent arguements will fall on deaf ears. Women who may fear a draft will increase the polls against fighting this war under the terms we choose.

Women in the Military
It's a complicated issue. If the military was a mere social laboratory you could tinker with it anyway you want. But we expect military combat units to be able to go out and complete a mission. Often there's a lot of brute strength involved. (That's red flag number one.) Then there's the issue of the disruption caused by the potential for added sexual harassment cases and the increase of shipboard pregnancies. (Big red flag there.) At some point combat readiness is diminished by all the added people problems. The problem with "proponents" such as Senator Clinton and Obama is neither has served in the military, and, honestly, probably don't care to know anyone who has. They really don't give a damn who suffers so that they can brag about their feminization program. Ask Sen Webb what he thinks should be done. He's a Marine with his feet on the ground.

The truth really won't hurt you, Robert
You’ll never read read from Robert or hear from feminist groups how much women are underrepresented serving in harm's way in Iraq. Women are qualified for 85 percent of military positions, make up 15 percent of our armed forces, but only 2 percent of those making the ultimate sacrifice of dying for our country. What you will hear is about the brave sacrifice of our menandwomen in Iraq, relative numbers conveniently unspecified (apparently feminists believe death hits women harder).

Another factoid you’ll never see passing from Robert's fingertips: even when counting childbirth as a form of our nation's work, women make up only 13 percent of work (plus birthing) related deaths. Feminists like Robert like to harp on about the so called "glass ceiling", but when was the last time you heard them mention the pine box basement?

The bottom line is that the greatest burden one can take on in society is the sacrifice of life itself. And by that measure (deaths incurred in building and maintaining society - birthing children included), American men take on a grossly disproportionate share.

Percent U.S. military deaths in Iraq (latest war only):
Men about 98 percent (3606)
Women slightly over 2 percent (78)

Percent U.S. workplace plus birthing related deaths (typical recent year):
Men about 87 percent (5812 working)
Women about 13 percent (501 work + 357 birthing)

Think well - see clearly. :)

Truth part II
Regarding the fact that, for our country today, men fill a little more than 43 out of 44 of the body bags coming home from Iraq, I offer this (and the prior fact about nonmilitary deaths) because it is a truth that mostly lies tightly locked away in today's feminist and PC media driven climate of man bashing. I think these are facts that deserve to be stated loudly and proudly.

It is simply common sense that women, by nature, aren't as good at down-in-the-dirt fighting and generally shun it in deference to their menfolk (and rightly so). Sure, there are the few exceptions, and they have earned and deserve equal respect as fighters (let the chips fall where they may), but that is nowhere close to the norm. It just isn't, never will be and never should be. We are by nature a dimorphic species. Men and women, especially when it comes to the highly athletic endeavor of battlefield fighting or other dangerous, strenuous work, are not the same.

In fact, just look to the actual athletic field - we never force women to compete equally against men (that would be unfair - women would almost always lose!), so why is it that when we do just that in the field of battle, society likes to pretend that women will now suddenly be able to keep up?

Think well - see clearly. :)

Truth part III
I offered those facts as evidence that men are simply much more willing to push themselves literally to death in pursuit of their duties and ambitions. That is just another part of our dimorphic nature. Recognizing this reality is not an attempt, nor an excuse to put women down, just merely a window into the psyche that more often drives men to ascendancy. It is proffered as a likely testimonial as to why women make up only 16 percent of Congress and fill only 16 to 18 percent of boardrooms and top executive suites, etc. etc.

Just as I suppose is the case for many other men and women, I am tired of the likes of Robert, Hillary, Nancy Pelosi and other such victim mentality feminist princesses of privilege bashing (whether directly or implicitly) ordinary men for being hard working good American citizens. Don't you agree?

Think well - see clearly. :)

thinkwell
Yep I do agree. Women took a wrong turn when they started with the "I can do anything you can do better" thing. Instead they should have emphasized what it is they do better and ran with that. Now they want to compete with men AS men! Nature dosn't work that way.

Equal Rights
EQUAL RIGHTS means equal responsibilities. If women demand equal rights with men then they should be also willing to serve as combat soldiers and defend their country with their lives.

The current Double Standard of Equal Rights and Unequal Duties is typical PC rubbish.

Affirmative Action for body bags. Why should men die for women who talk equal rights but want unequal duties?

Also, Citizenship should depend on some contribution to the nation, not just birth. Service to the country, either civilian or military, should determine citizenship.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

ScaredofaMustache
you wouldn't happen to be last weeks Scaramouche would you?

Thinkwell
I like and agree with what you have to say. To add to that I was Fuels for 23 years in the USAF, the few women we had in the job shied away from the down in the dirt/fuel work. Many just didn't want to do it. To a person they didn't want to be on FAARP (forward arming and refueling points)teams,

I'm not saying women don't belong in the military period, Ihave served with some that were outstanding and performed exceptionally well.

Some jobs require brute force, combat jobs in particular. My brother in-law (to date 20 years US Army) said while a squad leader in the 82nd, he told me when they bed down all operations take place within the perimeter, eating, relieving yourself, you lose privacy.

The guys also see the differences in the physical training standards. I have had some ask me if we are all the same rank and all have to meet standards, why are the men required to do more? What is the good answer?

There are always exceptions to the rule, but that is not the norm.

In my last tour for Operaion Southern Watch, the 1ST SGT, told me they had to figure out what to do about pregnacies, in 3 weeks 33 women had to be sent home because they were pregnant. They cannot stay in theater pregnant, so they get sent home. Someone else from their unit has to complete their TDY (temporary duty).

There is one reason,
Though my sister, one of the statistically rare women gifted in the areas of mechanics and repair, serves proudly as an AGE mechanic (freeing a male airman for a combat role), I will never trust women in combat for one, particular reason.

We often hear, especially from the liberal left, about female soldiers being raped by their male compatriots. Yet we never seem to hear about female soldiers killing or injuring male soldiers who have attempted to rape them or, at least, of them dying in the attempt to so defend themselves.

Assuming that the reports of soldier-on-soldier rape are not lies, if women were truly capable of combat on an equal footing with men and truly had the same fighting spirit as men, the outcome of such assaults should be 50-50 -- the women succeeding in defending themselves half the time and dying (or, at least, being beaten unconscious) ,in the attempt to defend themselves the other half.

And yet I have never once heard a report of a female soldier either killing a fellow soldier who assaulted her or dying fighting in her own defense.

How could I conceivably trust women soldiers, as a group, to protect me and my children from our enemies if they neither can nor will fight in their own defense?

Robert
Your too funny. You wish the GOP was dying.

military women
send all of the women back from iraq; doesn't seem like they are appreciated. so there are no molly pitchers, joan of arcs, or harriet tubmans. too bad. i do agree that all girls and boys at the age of 18 should be registered for the selective service. also all assigned in the military services, do no wind up in combat. i spent almost 22 years, in support units and military hospitals. women can serve honorably ;in the military in support roles; without have to be on the front lines. how about our allies? didn't they have a female hostage among those taken by the iranians. tricky situation. most training is based on being a combat ready soldier matters of that sort, or has that changed? how do our allies feel about having their women on the front lines?

military women reply to :iscm
ask the president and vice-president who are great proponents of females in combat what they think about it. they certainly have their feet on the ground. didn't these two serve their country without blemish?

Thinkwell
'Victim mentality feminist princesses of privilege', Damn I wish I could write like that. Kudos

for Citizen X
Citizen X writes: "And while she is my equal in most regards, let’s not kid our selves, she weighs 120 pounds soaking wet, and due to her lack of testosterone does not posses the killer instinct"

Perhaps you're just fortunate enough to have a demure wife.

Here's a woman who flies an A-10 tank buster--into combat:

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/KCpilot.html

I'm sure you know that A-10 work is "up close and personal" work. She gets to strafe the enemy on the ground with that onboard cannon. No one has come forward to claim that she ever chickened out:

"Our mission has remained unchanged, and that's to support the troops on the ground,' she said. "If they're taking fire, yes, there are risks. But that's our jobs."
-- "KC," somewhere in Iraq

I LOVE women
(especially my Wife) I found out, way back in my teens, that some women can be quite formidable opponents on the dojo floor. My instructor in Gojoryu Karate, black belt 2nd dan, was a wee little thing that couldn't have weighed more than 95 pounds soaking wet. She could put down almost anyone in a few seconds.

That being said, I still think that women are a big part of "why we fight." A real man's natural instincts are to protect and defend women in perilous situations. I think that women should be in the rear with the gear when they serve. They simply do not have the natural abilities for combat.

Poll
Anyone believe any of the hyperbolic crap the phony Robert vomits onto this forum?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Of course not. Why would you?

Been there
Look guys, I'd love to debate the pros and cons.

Realistically, and based on MY personal experience (I think 22 years counts for something). NO ONE (male or female) WANTS to go into combat.

ENLISTED WOMEN do not "volunteer" for combat jobs as a norm. The majority of women in uniform WOULD be happy doing what it takes. BUT we want the training that lets us HELP.

The days of the female version of Basic Training included how to "dress your hair within uniform regulations" instead of how to disassemble, clean and reassemble your weapon are over (thank-G-d!).

I served with more than one FEMALE officer that was eager for "combat." Ma'am, no one is EAGER for it. NOT really, not when you have seen the "fruits of war." It is a necessary evil, because you do not want your children to go into combat.

Typically it's the O's that want it (along with the civilian "elites" and the rest of us - DON'T.

Women in the Military:Reply to Bonnie
Okay you countered with supporting politicians, President Bush and VP Cheney. You also avoided responding to the concern about women operating on the front line and the side issues of increased likelihood of sexual harrassment and a problem perhaps more peculiar to the Navy--shipboard pregnancies.

So -- do you contend that these problems don't exist, or, if they do exist, that they don't have a corrosive effect on the combat readiness of our military? The politicians all thump their chests about this. However, ask the Generals and Admirals their opinions (off the record) and see what you get. The political pressure on everyone to say what a great idea it is to try to put women everywhere we have traditionally put men is overwhelming. To disagree can be a career ending blunder.

Robert - Best to keep one's mouth shut
than open it and display a monumental lack of knowledge.

Standard gun mounts on Destroyers (DD, DDG) and Cruisers (CG) are the 5"/54 which have been around since the '70s. These cannons are being replaced by the 5"/62 with a greatly increased range and wider variety of projectiles. The rounds and powder casings are still transferred to the magazine via good old fashion hand-over-hand manpower. The new cargo rounds (with various sub-munitions) and LRAP (Long-range Rocket Assisted Projectiles) are even heavier.

Also whoever is feeding your talking points is woefully ignorant on handling of munitions during UNREPS. The crates still have to be broken out and manhandled to the ready magazines.

Lastly, where are the Destroyers with female commanders? I am a Retired Naval Officer and currently a DON Engineer. I have visited just about every combatant on both coasts since leaving active-duty five years ago and still haven’t meet one of these female Destroyer COs.


Re. coed combat units:
I seem to recall hearing that once the bullets start flying, half the males will stop thinking about attacking the bad guys and will be thinking instead about protecting the females. Haven't been in the situation but it does sound plausible.

Iraq Is America's War Not Bush's
Robert offers, "....Mr. Bush settled it with his war."

A flaming liberal is always spotted when they toss out that Iraq is Bush's war. It is America's war. This is not a dictatorship. Bush was elected twice into office and three elections in a row he was given more representatives. He recommended invading Iraq and Congress agreed. He was re-elected soon thereafter. He is doing America's bidding. Not the other way around. Get over it.



Robert
I can't figure out if your hilarious or delirious. If the far right was dying then the Dems would not be out touting their religious values. Cop a clue dude.

Women vs Men In Combat
I expect that everyone has a role in war. But, I do not think that we all have equal roles in war. Wars are about winning, not balance. Some roles are highly physical and some roles are highly intellectual. Some jobs may even be a blend. It has been my experience that in pure physical efforts, same sex efforts perform best.

In physical combat, as I have seen, all male or all female teams seem to work better than a blend. When blended they tend to take on sex oriented roles that are distracting to the mission.

If given a choice, in a brute force opoortunity, I would prefer an all-male physical force coming to my rescue than a gendre correct one.

Re: Robert who is the enemy?
Robert, it seems that in your post that the "far right" is the enemy you seem to be fighting. If you could just get rid of them then the world would be okay.

If you are correct, and the "far right" has already lost this fight, then I really do fear for the future of this country. In real life, a military that makes decision bases upon political sensibilities will not be nearly as effective as one that makes decisions based upon what will defeat the enemy.

Average real people understand these facts. 1. Men are physically stronger than women, and this still makes a difference in combat units. 2. Emotionally men and women are different, and men are simply more wired to fight (just watch) 6 year old boys and girls). 3. Women in a combat unit will lower fighting moral (no amount of training stops the hormones from flowing). 4. Women in combat units are more likely to get raped by the enemy, and also they are more likely to get have sex with or get raped (I mean good grief we give kids condoms in school because they supposedly cannot help themselves, but soldiers would?) 5. War sucks and sane people don't want it, but if it is necessary I want my military to kick butt.

Robert - Lost In Politics
Robert offers as to the Iraq war being Bush's war, "...and when the reasons for it turned out not to be valid...the people are blaming him for taking us there."

Spoken like a true liberal.

The reasons have always been valid. Even today Congress supports the war. They do some posturing for votes to keep you hooked, but in the end, as now, they will not withdraw. The blame game is a political nugget for votes, only.

America is looking for victory. They hold Bush accountable for the victory or lack of it. With no victory in sight, they voted accordingly in the last election. If victory comes about, even you Liberals will try to take credit.

Robert
Now I am just laughing at your stupidity. Keep posting you are very entertaining.

Mac Moore
Even the Dems have admitted that they will be in big trouble if Bush wins. So look for them to try anything to prevent that.

Lolo Sees Libs For What They Are
Lolo offers, "Even the Dems have admitted that they will be in big trouble if Bush wins. So look for them to try anything to prevent that."

Agreed.

reply to iscm
hi,( i) did you not read my comment above the one i addressed with you? go back a couple of lines.

Robert - It is the same projectile
The 5 inch designtion is what makes the difference. The basic round has been around since WWII, so your argument is false with respect to manpower required to handle them.

As for the Enterprise Strike Group (stopped calling them Battle Groups a few years ago)

Captain Kim Parker [USS Philippine Sea (CG 58)] is a guy if that is who you are referring too.

I am having a harder and harder time believing any of your Sea StoriesThe 5 inch designation is what makes the difference. The basic round has been around since WWII, so your argument is false with respect to manpower required to handle them.

As for the Enterprise Strike Group (stopped calling them Battle Groups a few years ago)

Captain Kim Parker [USS Philippine Sea (CG 58)] is a guy if that is who you are referring too.

I am having a harder and harder time believing any of your sea stories. Why don’t you do us a favor and start them with the disclaimer “This ain’t no sh!t …”

Okay I've got it now.
Robert == Walter Mitty.

Huge difference
Having commanded both male only and integrated units as well as having conducted tactical evaluations of both I can tell you that gender integration undoubtedly harms combat efficiency. As much as some people would like to ignore the gender differences they do not go away. Keep in mind that the majority of the individuals in the military are young (18 to 24) and overwhelmingly male so the addition of females to the mix inevitably provokes sexual tension (just a biological fact). We would be better off putting women in gender segrated units (battalion level and down)for two reasons: 1) since the whole unit would be female, it would open up more leadership opportunities for women
2) women would not be able to get away with some of the excuses they use (female problems and the "crying game") which men have difficulty dealing with. I have seen senior male MSGs be at a loss on how to deal with these excuses (and what man would not be pilloried for not showing "sensitivity" in these situations?) whereas I have seen female NCOs see through these excuses and push the females working for them to actually perform to standard. Of course, the female unit with the same function as a male unit would need to be augmented by 25% or more in personnel simply because women do not have the same capacity for physical labor as men. Despite the myth of the "push button" military, someone still has to tote, haul and erect all the tentage, generators etc. needed by a unit in the field.

Air Force Academy PFT
I can't speak for the other SAs, but here are the zoomie standards:

Min/Max Men/women

Pullups
7/21, 1/8
Sit ups
58/95, 58/95
Push ups
35/72, 18/48
600 Yard run
2.03/1.36, 2.23/1.53

1.5 mile run
12.25/7.45, 14.17,8.55


I think the worst part is the pull up standards. How is that comparable? Of course, I'd rather the mens' min be 10, but I'm sure some sally sued because high standards are mean.

Think about it anthropologically
Why have women been almost totally excluded from combat throughout all of human history? Is it because they are not generally as proficient in combat? That is partially the reason. I would contend that the REAL reason why women have never been allowed a place on the front line is the simple fact that no society can afford to lose its child-bearing women. It seems silly to us today, but if the USSR had lost an entire generation of women instead of a generation of men during WWII, then there would not have been a USSR after the war. This "progressive" notion of putting women in combat only works when the military actions are limitted in scope and our nation is resting in safety and comfort. If we really had to lay our cards on the table as we did in WWII, we could not afford to send a generation of women into combat; it would be national suicide.

Robert
Your stupid pasting style is not winning you any points (see example):

Robert writes: Monday, August, 13, 2007 6:17 AM


Neither is the fact that you're an arrogant dooshbag without a clue about anything.

skip
1 pullup vs. 7, 18 pushups vs 35. Didn't helen reddy have a song about this? "I am woman, lower the standards..."

Robert...
I am amazed at the confidence with which you blatantly make things up. Are you the guy in Brad Paisley's song "Online"?

cce1302
I doubt this jackazz listens to country music, so he is probably scratching his head at your comment. For me, I am just scrolling past his cretin-level pastings from now on...the same way I would just drive by the state mental hospital without stopping by.

Robert - Of Course the Phillipine Sea
is not a Destroyer, but she had the only CO with a name that could be misconstrued as a woman. You sir, make a claim which is without any merit, then claim the Navy Destroyer CO was a classmate with your spouse.

Please show me this mystical female CO of a USN Destroyer. Such an event as a woman taking command of a naval combatant must surely be listed somewhere outside your imperfect (and somewhat suspect) memory.

As for them always being a RAG did you mean to type ARG? In any event Enterprise would not be in an Amphibious Ready Group (or the new more potent Expeditionary Strike Group; ESG). Just what exactly did you do while serving in the Navy?

skyhawk
Interesting typo - RAG - on a ship "commanded" by a woman.

AZPhil - Re: RAGs
I think the boy is smoking some RAG (or at least rope).

SFASU7392
Same here. The closest I got to a RAG was my duty as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer (NGLO) and that was a Regimental Artillery Group (USMC).

I wonder if this guy Robert was serving in Star Fleet, because his claims are definitely out there...

Women in combat
My husband was a platoon leader in Vietnam in 1965 and heartily agreed with the reasoning of those of you who object to women in combat--as do I. I salute you for speaking up against the PC rhetoric. Just don't let them bait you into a cat fight! At risk of sounding like a dreaded Far Right Dinosaur, I think a lot could be solved with the WACs, WAFs, and WAVEs we once had wherein women were not pitted against our men, but had a distinct role as their own military support team. Wouldn't that also address the rationale that military career females need combat in order to advance to higher ranks? As much as I support our military. I also have a real problem with couples both taking off for combat zones and leaving their children at home to be raised by whomever. "Male and female He created them" Just can't be beat!

Stephen F. Austin
If we're created equal, let's have a championship game between the sorriest NBA team in the league against the WNBA champions. Or, they could have the co-ed 100-meter dash in the Olympics. I wonder how that would turn out.

Try again Robert
USS Jarrett was a Frigate and you stated Destroyer.
Hell of a lot of difference for anyone familiar with surface combat. An FFG is an anti-air platform with a minimal ASW capability -- 3 inch gun is only good for attacking tankers and oil platforms.

And Rushmore??? Give me a break she doesn't even have a gun and only defensive missiles (like most Amphibs). As for CVNs, how many female Tomcat pilots did you idiots kill before it was decided to put them in the tamer F-18?

Admit it -- you made a false statement and have been running around in circles trying to cover your fantasies every since.

Just because your wife has more ba11s than you doesn't mean America is better off with women filling combatant positions.

Still waiting for those female Destroyer COs

Reality

Any nation that would deliberately send it's women in to combat, is not worth defending.

While women complain while men die
Women are continuously complaining about discrimination and claiming they are equal. At the same time women try to self-deal the benefits and obligations of feminism, paternalism, and chivalry.

It is time to stop this self-dealing!

98% of military casualties are male. When are we going to have equality? I am ready, and have been waiting (but I am not holding my breath).
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