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Friday, January 09, 2009
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is It Miller Time?
by Kathleen Parker
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- Matt Miller gives me a headache.

If his name doesn't ring a bell, wait until his new book, "The Tyranny of Dead Ideas," gains traction in the national debate about how to fix The Current Mess.

Miller's diagnosis of what ails us is grim but optimistic. (You have to learn to think paradoxically.) And his prescription for a cure is painful because it requires something most humans resist: Change the way we think.

Before we can fix the economy, health care, Social Security, education and other problems, we have to rethink some of our most sacrosanct premises.

Here's a paradoxical thought to get you started: We have to increase taxes and federal programs to save the capitalist system.

I know, I know. But don't dismiss Miller without hearing him out. He has some compelling ideas that, though they seem at first counterintuitive, are ultimately reasonable. It is first necessary to suppress the instinct to remain comfortable in the familiar and to calm the knee that aches to jerk.

Miller -- a journalist (Fortune columnist and host of the radio show "Left, Right & Center,"), Democrat and former economic aide in the Office of Management and Budget under Bill Clinton -- has singled out six second-nature, but dead, ideas about how a modern economy ought to look.

If not corrected, he argues, our very economic model could be threatened as other nations lose faith in capitalism's ability to improve the lives of everyday people.

The dead ideas are that: our children will earn more than we do; free trade is "good" no matter how many people it hurts; employers should play a central role in the provision of health coverage; taxes hurt the economy; "local control" of schools is essential; people tend to end up, in economic terms, where they deserve to.

Is this man insane? More government? More taxes?

With a few tweaks here and there, Miller's dead ideas sound an awful lot like core American principles. (Exceptions: Even some hardened free-marketers will acknowledge the X factor of "luck," a subject Miller explored in his previous book, "The Two-Percent Solution.")

But he's got a point. In fact, he's got several.

The world has changed in significant ways and our old formulas simply no longer work. We once thought, for instance, that financial markets can regulate themselves. Whup. The disasters of 2008 proved that assumption false. If only we had noticed it sooner. Did dead ideas block our vision?

Miller doesn't pretend to possess a magic formula. Instead, he poses questions that expose the folly of our certitude. For instance:

Top economists of all political persuasions insist that free trade is "good for the country" because the benefits to some Americans outweigh the losses suffered by others owing to foreign competition. But, asks Miller, "Who put economists in charge of weighing the interests of one set of Americans against another?"

On education: Miller supports serious parental involvement and local ownership of the direction of schools, but insists that school funding based on local taxation dooms poor communities to substandard education. Without a greater federal role in financing and standards, how are 10 million poor children supposed to compete?

Miller dismisses criticism that he is advancing a "nanny state." He acknowledges that "big government" liberalism is dead and rejects European socialist models. He even notes that Clinton's "Third Way" fell short of reducing insecurity in the global age.

At the same time, rigid conservative approaches have left us mortgaged to China through massive trade deficits, while deregulation of our financial system literally has broken the bank.

If rethinking comfortable ideas is painful, even more painful is the prospect in coming decades that, for instance, as many as 40 million white-collar jobs could be lost to competitors in such places as China and India.

Free trade was controversial as lower-paying manufacturing jobs moved overseas. "How will business and politics be reshaped when hungry foreign rivals set wage levels (and trigger 'downward mobility') for better-educated and politically potent groups in ways not previously imaginable?"

Unimaginable is the word for this and other scenarios Miller outlines in the book, but his arguments eliminate denial as an option. Although there's ample room for dissent, Miller's limber mind informs a rational voice that is crucial to the conversation.

Keep the Advil handy.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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good god
Kat you have finally lost your mind

Wikipedia Miller
I've obviously been spending way too much time on Townhall.com.

Who is Matt Miller?

I intend to find out!

Why?

Because of the PARADOXICAL STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. (He's right about that, if that structure informs his way of thinking.)

The first shall be last, and the last shall be first....

Kathy
I have only one word for you Kathy.....RINO

POOR LOGIC
hhahahaha! Am I or anyone supposed to take this seriously. Makes me want to write a book myself, and I'm aware of a good number that would refute with ample research and evidence many of her absolutist claim. I hate assumptive, unsubstantiated logic, such as we have to fix Social Security,health care and the rest. Social Security for instance is unconstitutional, which is really all that should need be said on that issue. Perhaps, notice I say perhaps as I'm limited in fully putting forward all the reasoning needed, if Social Security and other unconstitutional crimes were not being perpetrated upon the American people and we were left our own discretion of our resources, we wouldn't have much of the mess we have today. For years, ach, sorry, decades politicians(note I say politicians not government)have been a financial black hole with their ineptness, cronyism, and unproductive bureaucracy, and of course we should continue in such a manner. Shame Miss Parker. Please go to link below.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bank-tj.asp

Oh me
Just to take one little snippet out of this idiodic article, the issue of funding education comes to mind. Of course, who funds it would be almost irrelevant if funding and control of what is taught weren't one in the same. And if the federal goverment controls it (they come close now) then I expect all is lost for future generations. One might also ask, since when has spending great gobs of money equaled a good education. As I recollect, Abe Lincoln was educated on a one room school house. So Kathy, turn in your credentials as a conservative, and embrace the liberal agenda, but quit calling yourself one thing while acting out another.

This is Pathetic
You have to try conservatism before you announce it's failure. You have to try the free market before you say it is incapable of producing prosperity.

Government policy drove the trade deficit. Arguing for more interference is stupid.

The Federal system of government was set up specifically to take advantage of disparities in performance between the states. Experimentation in policy would lead to lessons that could be applied to the benefit of all. Having the central government dictate one set of policies for the country was exactly what the Founders didn't want as they knew it would lead to what we are experiencing right now.

Without a doubt this is the worst piece of analysis I have read on Townhall.

stoned again.
Read the Austrian school, young lady.

TWICE in one week!!!!?
What is this? Mindless elite drivel torture?


-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

SamT, Trulib
I could continue down the same path you guys have blazed, but why bother. Parker is a big govt left winger. I'll bet she voted for Obama. She may be wanted somewhere, but she is not wanted here. The trolls will be by and support her. 'Nuff said.

Kat's journey is complete...
Kathleen has made the complete journey now. From one who espoused fairly consistent conservatism - to one who now makes stuff up to help prove her liberal points.

"rigid conservative approaches" have not been taken in years. Aside from national security issues, Bush surpasses Clinton as a big government nannyist.

My fear is that Kat is not alone - and that she is the new direction of the Republican party.

I hope not...

Stick to Your Day Job . . .
Whatever that is now, Kathleen; maybe it's expatiating on such weighty subjects as "Twitter" and making up terms like "oogedy-boogedy".

It's always unwise to venture into topics that are out of your depth.

Miller
Are you and Miller having an affair and you are trying to further his failing career?

This is not a Bulverism*
*thanks, C.S. Lewis

Just a question:

"Miller -- a journalist (Fortune columnist and host of the radio show "Left, Right & Center,"), Democrat and former economic aide in the Office of Management and Budget under Bill Clinton"

Then why, pray tell, is KP shilling his "book?"

Now, for the "dead ideas":

"our children will earn more than we do;"

I suppose that depends on who you are and who your children are.

"free trade is "good" no matter how many people it hurts;"

If the alternative is more government control, yes.

"employers should play a central role in the provision of health coverage;"

If the alternative is more government control, yes.

"taxes hurt the economy;"

If you'd like to give more of your income to the government, you're welcome to.

""local control" of schools is essential;"

1) Has federal involvement in education increased or decreased in the last century?

2) Has the quality of education increased or decreased in the last century?

"people tend to end up, in economic terms, where they deserve to."

Actually, he may have a point here; both he and you are certainly earning far above any demonstrated level of competence on your parts. Fortunately for you, I don't have the power to decide what Americans "deserve."

The only thing he might be right about..
...is employer-provided health care. Not that it will ever happen, but health insurance, HMOs and copays should go away, and people ought to have to pay for their own basic health care. Think about it...prices would go down because doctors wouldn't have so much overhead. Does anyone really know what a basic doctor visit costs? Not counting the added cost to pay insurance billers, the insurance company itself, outrageous, malpractice premiums, etc. Perhaps the old fashioned "major medical" plans were really the best way to go, or move more toward health savings accounts so people can manage their own health care dollars.

Kathleen,
I didn't read your column.

I just stopped by to ask what it feels like to be inconsequential.

See you next week when I don't read your column.

LeishaC
Our lords in DC are determined to turn healthcare into another arm of the welfare state. This has nothing to do with the wellbeing of Americans and everything to do with controlling our lives. That is what government does.

Stealth Jihad/Socialism
I just read Stealth Jihad by Robert Spencer, informative read. Parker must have read it too and that's why she's still on TH to promote discontent.

"Our children will earn more than we.." It's actually that our children will have a better life than we. It's a goal, a motivation, it's never been automatically true. Lowering expectations will make us better.... is a myth.

"Free trade is better..." The economists are only pointing out what is observably true, (like reporters used to). They don't pick the winners/losers, the market does.

"Employers/health care..." Employers out GOOD, Govt. in BAD.

"Equal financing of schools..." If you think the Fed will ever distribute money without strings you are simply living in a liberal utopian reality.

"High taxes..." So you think people will risk investment no matter what the marginal rate is?

"People get what they deserve..." Not yet, but I hope your is coming.

Poor children ...
So children in poor districts would get such a terrible education if there were local control of schools? That assumes that there is truly a correlation between money and educational success. And there isn't. Note the success of individual immigrants who work hard and don't expect anybody to give them anything. Throwing more money (which is already ludicrously too much) into the pot will not correct the failures of those who expect success to be handed to them.

Just wondering
Isn't Daily Kos Or Move On looking for writers? KP, I think you're better suited to their way of thinking. After this, I will no longer read anything you write. Wacky Lefty views just don't interest me.

Liberal Ponzi Schemes
Miller's "recipe" for a dying patient because of eating too much "arugula", is to give this patient more massive doses of "Arugula"...

As a farmer who moved our entire production to Brazil in 2004, the primary reason for this radical move was the unsustainable, frivolous regulations by our never ending bureaucratic tyranny. Of course, high marginal tax rates, the high legal costs, regulatory and tax code compliance costs also loomed gigantic in this decision. Secondary were the cost of labor (we currently employ over 1300 people full time and up to 3000 during harvest times)state and regional taxes and the incresingly hostile business environment in America.

The proposed government spending will surely bankrupt and discredit America even further with the global community. No matter how much government decides to "stimulate", it won't work.

America urgently and desperately needs tort reform, tax code reform, drastic curtailment of frivolous bureaucratic regulations (OSHA, EPA, USDA, FDA ETC)and the best way to start would be with term limits on Congress.

KP - Stay away from writing about economic subjects, you definitely come accross as a certified airhead.

Admission
"The world has changed in significant ways and our old formulas simply no longer work. We once thought, for instance, that financial markets can regulate themselves. Whup. The disasters of 2008 proved that assumption false. If only we had noticed it sooner. Did dead ideas block our vision?"

Apology accepted conservatives. We knew we were right all along, but thanks for finally seeing the light. Progressive ideas actually "progress" as time goes on, and don't need to push our great nation close to economic ruin to modify our positions.

Credibility?
I think Ms. Parker may lose any remaining credibility that she had after this column.

These two sentences alone are enough to disqualify her as a critical thinker:
"We once thought, for instance, that financial markets can regulate themselves. Whup. The disasters of 2008 proved that assumption false."

Were the markets in 2008 regulating themselves? The answer is a resounding no.

However, 2008 is proof that markets do work. The "disasters of 2008" were the market correcting the misguided government policies.

I think it may be time for TH to remove KP from the website, not because her views are contrary to the views of many of the readers, but simply because her arguments are weak, and her critical thinking skills are seemingly nonexistent.

Kathleen has officially ...
... made herself a neo-leftist.

Everything she wrote in this column is about advancing socialist nanny state agendas and every idea she sugar-coats has already been tried and failed.

It is time for TownHall to let her go. She needs to depart these pages and take up residence over at the DailyKos and Huffington Post. At least readers on those websites are gullible enough to believe her tripe.

The solution to our problems...
lies in getting rid of Ponzi schemes, changing the tax structure, and reducing Federal spending.

Ponzi schemes like SS and the stock market are killing us. SS cannot be funded unless serious changes are made. The choices advanced by politicians never advance phasing out SS. Why? That should be the number one idea. The stock market is about investing in risk. In good times you can sell your stock and make a profit but in bad times the last guy in is left holding a shrinking bag because who wants to buy a loser. Wouldn't it be better if people invested in CDs at smaller privately owned local banks? These banks should be tightly audited to ensure good business practices. The money would not yield the inflated rate the stock market does but the savings would create a situation where the money would retain more of its value. Give me sound money and a small return on investment makes sense.

Taxes need to be radically changed. Reduce business tax to 10%, eliminate withholding taxes, establish a consumption tax at 10% and establish an across the board import tariff that would be used as a brake to manage out of control deficit trade balances.

Naturally, reduced taxes would reduce the size and spending of the Federal government. A sound currency policy would stabilize our economy thus reducing real inflation and would eliminate the 'need' for Federal intervention and put pressure on removing the Federal Reserve.

Some if not most of what I have written will be loudly and quickly criticized. Thus is the spoiled fruit caused by defending the way things have always been done versus taking a fresh look at what should be done now.

ECONOMICS FOR DUMMIES

.....In your case KP, the title should be economics for imbeciles ...

....."Lassez-Faire Capitalism (which is an ideal because we don't have it) is always prone to boom and bust cycles ...when demand is greater than supply we have a boom ...when supply outpaces demand we have a bust ...

.....I hope you can understand this because I cannot make it any simpler ...the law of supply and demand in economics is as imutable as the law of gravity in physics ...

.....If humans had the discipline to moderate during the boom then perhaps the inevitable bust could be avoided ...then government would have no excuse to step in with their socialist solutions which never work ...

.....Recessions, which become Depressions when the Government steps in, are proof that markets regulate themselves, but idiots who do not save (store nuts for the winter) and are caught with their pants down when markets correct, bleat to suckle the government teat .....COLOSSUS

Decline
The real underlining reason for our downturn is more of a moral decline than it is an ideological one.

And I for one am not bothered by a leftist opinion pieces (such as Parker's); it only strengthens my belief in conservative principles and values.

Responsible Columnists
The only way to eliminate Ms. Parker from TownHall is to stop reading and stop posting.

Miller is a liberal boob
Conservatives sent our money to China and our jobs overseas? How about those things being explained by government overspending and over-regulating to create the perfect nanny-state? If there were no tax advantages to moving jobs out of America, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the "govment" wasn't so liberal, retarded, and dedicated to destroying our way of life from high taxes, to limiting business and to eliminating God, we might end up with at least, tattered clothing and a tin cup. Hey buddy, can you spare a dime? Those dead ideas of Miller's are dying Ok, but not because I want them to, it is because people like Miller get so much free air time from journalists who want those ideas to die. In my opinion, it's journalism that is dead.

Kat and Miller, both too liberal
Conservatives sent our money to China and our jobs overseas? How about those things being explained by government overspending and over-regulating to create the perfect nanny-state? If there were no tax advantages to moving jobs out of America, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the "govment" wasn't so liberal, retarded, and dedicated to destroying our way of life from high taxes, to limiting business and to eliminating God, we might end up with at least, tattered clothing and a tin cup. Hey buddy, can you spare a dime? Those dead ideas of Miller's are dying Ok, but not because I want them to, it is because people like Miller get so much free air time from journalists who want those ideas to die. In my opinion, it's journalism that is dead.

Schools
As a recent high school student (class of 2008), I can say first-hand that regulated federal funding to schools would DOOM my school. My school is a good school, and if the government hands out the same amount to all schools our quality of education would decrease. We'd more than likely be getting LESS funding than we are now based on local taxes. In the so-called "poor communities" I've seen (my former hometown is one of them), I see lack of fiscal responsibility as the problem. There, the school system once spent a lot of money on a new football field than to replace their antiquated high school. More federal funding won't solve that problem. It'll only make people from other communities pay for unnecessary new football fields.

Kathleen
You have officially joined the dark side. It's time for you to become Ariana Huffington's apprentice so that she may complete your training, and together, you can rule the galaxy.

Get Rid Of Her!
This woman has no value. Get her outta here.

The selling of free trade
When NAFTA, GATT, WTO and Doha were being sold to the public and we were told how good free trade is, no one bothered to say it then. Say what? That this free trade won't be so good because of other government interferences in the market. No one said anything like that. They say if we pass the treaty everyone will benefit.
It ain't so. 20 years after NAFTA and we're in this mess. Yes, government interference is largely to blame. But why wasn't that considered before the ratification? Because benefiting everyone wasn't the real objective?
And I've said this many times before. There is NO such thing as a CONSUMER! Dare to Try to show me one and I'll spin him or her around. Walla! From 9 to 5 this same creature is a producer!
So if you bust one in the chops you wind up busting the other one in the chops.
It wasn't stupidity that led people to say that free trade would benefit the consumer and some how benefit us all. It was deceit.

Don't you just love
how poor uneducated parker can tell the difference between liberalism and conservativism? How the poor thing is so bent out of shape we things left is right and day is night?
"At the same time, rigid conservative approaches have left us mortgaged to China through massive trade deficits, while deregulation of our financial system literally has broken the bank."

It was rigid liberal apprpoaches but forward by clinton and bush that lead to the massive trade deficits with China and it was liberal REGULATION that has literally broke the bank. Which is something I think liberals plan to happen and wanted to happen so they could justify nationalizing the banking system.


for all the talk
about how liberals try to limit free speech the reaction to parker are proof that it is conservatives who can't stand opinions that are different than their own.

it is really sad.

is there any doubt that the idea that free markets regulate themselves is simply a conservative myth?

do conservatives object to the idea that nafta has had a negative effect in this country?

is there any difference between tax and spend and borrow and spend when it comes to the end result?

the reaction from many on this thread is that any questioning of sacrosanct conservative dogma is treason.

free speech seems to be losing ground as a conservative value.

Read the remarks not the article
Do you realize that KP just wets herself when you give her any type of recognition.

Items are screened and flushed. She takes what she wants and the rest of you can just eat cake - darling.

Not sure this is the best place to spend your time.

Kathleen/Impeached
You need to move on. Your days as an objective journalist are long gone . You have moved to the left and have no business on Townhall.com. You're drivel has become tedious for me since you dissed Palin's qualifications for high office. In my not too humble opinion, she's ultimately more qualified than the incoming occupant. Did you idolize alinsky in college like Hillary? Just wondering, hmmmmmm.

Get off the island!!!
The Tribe has spoken. Douse your torch and swim home!!!


-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Ms Kathleen
Go away. You are irrelevant.

Bill
So in order to be a conservative, you had to like Sarah Palin?

You don't seem to think there is a difference between somebody's stance on the issue's and being qualified to hold the highest office.

There are guys down at the bar that think we should get rid of the income tax system and don't like Barack Obama. Are they qualified too?

Well Nate
they have a good idea and are certainly as qualified as Obama to be president. In fact there are few people in the country less qualidied than Obama to be president.

WratWrangler
Maybe if we got Kathleen Parker a hobby, she wouldn’t scribble her drivel every week. I recommend she try Cement Block Sky Diving or a 90 foot Bungee Jump with an 80 foot Bungee Cord.

Obama Over The White House!
As usual, I was stricken by insomnia. So, last night (or early, early this morning), I once again watched the 1933 film "Gabriel Over the White House," which should be required viewing for everyone. If you can't watch it, here's a synopsis, with some current notes added in:

The newly elected President, Judd Hammond (or BHO), starts by saying voters will forget his election promises now that he has been elected; focuses more on his nephew than "REAL" experts; threatens to declare martial law (or darn near to it when one considers the War on the Economy, as bin Biden categorizes it); leaves Congress with little choice, but to capitulate to his demands and grant him the power to enact all necessary measures, unfettered by the normal system of checks and balances; assumes the mantle of "The Great Benevolent Dictator" (or "The One"); wages war on the private system and large corporations; orders a new "Army of Construction" - a massive public works program that will give a paying job to every unemployed (or union) man in America until the economy recovers (and to build "infrastructure"); spends billions (trillions, in this case), proclaims, “We need action—immediate and effective action" and attempts to solve his country's problems through authoritarian means (or trillion dollar deficits for years to come); goes into massive debt to achieve "prosperity".... ALL BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES IS "TOO BIG TO FAIL" WITHOUT GOVERNMENT'S CONTROL.

An uncredited screenwriter was FDR, but it could have been BHO.

Obama, keep flying over the WH. We can't afford you.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro... (or get elected as President or to Congress)." Hunter S. Thompson


KP- Nice to know that you are coming off your Kook-Aid high. A Miller beer might help with the Obama hangover.

Ummmm
One-world government, here we come.

John
Are you and Miller having an affair and you are trying to further his failing career?

we could only hope..someone..anyone would take a romantic interest in Kathleen///sadly i am not hopeful

Richard
If that's where you rank Obama, than it's still progress over the current administration and the administration that would have been in power had the Republicans won.

Bye Bye Kathleen

Its official... Kathleen Parker can no longer be called a conservative.

Corruption
has brought us to the problems we are facing in the economy and the government.

Politicians steal from those who produce and are responsible to give to those who do not to gain votes and power.
Affirmative action has stolen the rewards of achievement from those who earned it.
Liberals ban God and morals from much of society.

The capitalist system is not wrong, it has been proven. Corruption in government and its refusal to hold the criminal and lazy responsible have changed the rules causing problems, added costs, and poor quality.

People who spread the lie, like you Kathleen, are complicit in this failure.

Get.Rid.Of.Her.
Hugh.

ECONOMICS FOR IMBECILES

.....CHRISTIANLIB @ 11:31 ...Are you one of the bleaters who have been conditioned to suckle at the Government teat? ....

.....Recessions "are" the free market correcting itself ...the market is saying that the economy has become overheated and needs to cool down ...but bleaters like yourself can't handle that and cry to the Government for big mommas teat ...the following is from my post @10:08 ...

....."Recessions, which become Depressions when the Government steps in, are proof that markets regulate themselves, but idiots who do not save (store nuts for the winter) and are caught with their pants down when markets correct, bleat to suckle the government teat" .....COLOSSUS

Delusional ..

Mr. Miller's trendy nonsense is yet another excuse for growing centralized government power. As government grows, individual liberty declines, and we will also be poorer.

Ms. Parker's conservative credentials are no longer valid.

v/r,

-- Bud

People,

the government's big lie, "It is for the children". The truth the government's big lie is designed to hide, "It is to keep me in power".

There are better ways for the government to be formed. The Constitution was centuries ahead of the rest of the intellectual world, but it is time for a constitutional convention to improve the idea of the government serving and protecting the rights of the individual from government oppression.

For example, we need a mechanism to reduce the influence of special interests on lawmakers.


Insanity equal liberal
You will be the perfect hatemonger to deliver Obama message of discrimination and oppression. It will be great that I will noit have to be in a country where you are considered a journalist with the hatred you produce on a regular basis. I hope you read not just the responds to your hatred but real journalist appearing on this site.

HMMM...
Yep, I'm REAL interested in what someone from the Clinton administration has to say--NOT! Isn't anyone left from the Reagan administration?

Madam Parker is telling us to grab the drugs BEFORE we "take the cure". Isn't this bass- ackwards? Who would buy such drivel except to use the pages of the book as they are used in Mexican prisons? Or maybe she thinks it will truly be "Miller Time" if we would be dumb enough to buy this BS and then buy into it. I have always been taught that if you have nothing nice to say about someone that you should say nothing at all. Therefore, I've got NOTHING to say about Ms. Parker.

Miller time
Beer or book, Miller is crap.

Kathleen, you appear on the same website that carries the brilliant minds of Stossel and Williams. Why in the name of vice and virtue are you reading Miller?

It must be the high life.

Want to know what's going on in the world? Go get a six pack of Fat Tire and a book called Atlas Shrugged.

If you dare.

WratWrangler
OOPS! Meant to say, "Maybe if we got Kathleen Parker a hobby, she wouldn’t scribble her drivel every week. I recommend she try Cement Block Sky Diving or an 80 foot Bungee Jump with a 90 foot Bungee Cord."

Nate we don't know that yet
so far all we have from the Obama team is their cabnet picks which are the worst in over 100 years. Not since the Buchanan admin in 1857 have we seen worst cabnet picks. That admin lead to a civil war what is the Obama admin going to lead to? There is a 5% chance it will be an imporvement over the bush/clinton admin. there is a 45% chance it will be different than the bush/clinton admin and 45% that it will be worst and 5% that it will be much much worst.

There is a good change that within four years inflantion will be at 50%, unemployement at 40% and 75% we will have a new Sedition Act making it a crime to critize the president and congress like John Adams in 1798.

$ in TX
Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Well said!

RE: Nate
"There are guys down at the bar that think we should get rid of the income tax system and don't like Barack Obama. Are they qualified too?"

Hey, easy there! I resemble that remark!

RE: Georgetwin
"I recommend she try Cement Block Sky Diving or an 80 foot Bungee Jump with a 90 foot Bungee Cord."

Good thing you didn't post that comment on a Lib Blog. They'd never understand the math. Maybe you SHOULD post it just to torture them.

Just when you thought
That Townhall would not publish another column by Kathleen Parker that supported yet another position of liberal idiocy, we get this. It really is time to stop visiting this ever growing more pathetic excuse for a conservative website.

Ugh!
Really, why is Ms. Parker still here? There must be a bright young conservative out there somewhere who would make much better use of this space?

Capitalism And Free Trade
Capitalism,without government intervention works. Government decided we needed to blossom out all over the world,thus NAFTA was born,and our headaches really began.

If the powers that be had been as concerned with keeping jobs here as they were in aiding every other podunk country,we would not be in the dire straits we are now.

Almost everything we at one time manufactured in the US,is now made in Taiwan and China. Where are these US ex-workers to find work?

We are about to borrow money from our grandchildren to bail out a government boondoggle caused by who? The Government!




Don Juan
Capitalism is the worst of all economical theories except all the other theories.

"We should impose a one-time 20% wealth tax on those with net worth in excess of $10M to rectify that imbalance."

Since that is the majority of democratic party leadership it is never going to happen. Democrats and liberals are all about keeping everything for themelves and making sure everyone else is in bondage and slavery to them.

Don Juan
I thank you for the tutorial. I know you are much more learned than I am. How did I guess you would find a way to blame a Republican for the demise of capitalism ? Surprise,surprise!

Don Juan
What history book did you learn that in? First, Reaganomics WAS/IS the capitalism of old. People with capital (capitalists) create businesses to make and sell goods and services. Customers buy those goods and services that they want. The capitalists pay their employers from their profits. Keep taxes low and they hire more employees and/or pay them more and the employees go out and spend that money. If their taxes are lower also, they go out and spend more money, buy houses, save some of it, maybe start their own businesses. The capitalists make money, the workers make money and it is good. That is "trickle down" economics and it's as old as the hills. What you're describing (and apparently wrongly believe the Republican Party abandoned in favor of Reaganomics) is Keynsian economics, which says that the government should control the economy and take the money from the "rich" (capitalists) and give it to the "poor" (workers) so that capitalists have no incentive to create businesses and workers have no incentive to create them either. In the end, it usually works out that governments have to create the goods and services because private individuals have no incentive to work that hard. It's a system that doesn't work. While the US has been in a more-or-less boom economy for 25 years (since Reagan), Western Europe (Keynse to the core) has slowly been mired in stagnation. They thought the EU and the Euro would save them, but it's not been looking good for a while. Many EU countries are calling for more capitalism and, dirty word these days, deregulation.

Capitalism isn't dead. It's about to be wrapped up and possibly strangled half-to-death by red tape, but I predict that as some time in the future, it will raise its head once more and it will be good.

Miller does have a couple of right ideas
No economy the size of the US can be completely deregulated. There are always going to be greedy jerks with lots of money who will try to control every one around them. In Alaska we call them "environmentalists". So, you have to have some regulation to prevent the worst kind of abuses by capitalists against customers and workers. For example, what's with credit card companies being allowed to send out billing statements with such short cycles that nobody not living next door could return the payment on time? And, what's with them being allowed to jack the rate not only on the card you were late on, but on ALL other cards you hold? A simple bit of regulation could have been put in place saying that the post-mark date of a check IS the payment date and a lot of bankruptcies might have been avoided. Put a ceiling on the interest rate card companies may impose and dictate a minimum 25-day payment cycle, to allow time for the USPO to work its usually leisurely magic. Simple and needed regulation that was denied during the years since Reagan. We're not talking business-strangulation, but a little bit of protection for the American consumer would be nice.

Regs that once more impose guidelines for healthy mortgages -- 10-20% down, payments no more than 30% of income. Had the gov't addressed that issue (as McCain and Bush actually asked them to years ago), we might have avoided part of this crisis.

Too much regulation is a BAD thing, but not all regulation is bad. Conservatives have the right ideas - capitalism works, but it does need some (few) bumpers to make sure it works for everyone.

Richard
You are right on the spot with the wealth tax. It would be a good strategy for Republicans to expose the liberal Democrat hypocrisy. If there is too big of a gap between the have's and have nots, why not tax what the rich already own?


Don Juan - Go Home!
If capitalism is so bad, then go to Cuba.

Lib Trolls will blame conservatives, but
We're all at fault here, folks. Everyone who took out more credit than they could afford shares that guilt with the companies that have abused the customers with short-paym't cycles, late fees, and jacked up interest rates. The Keynsian socio-economic engineers who insisted upon giving home loans to lower and lower-income people and pressured the banks into making these shaky loans share the guilt with the homeowners who bought a house and then mired themselves in credit card debt, took out home equity loans to cover it and then mired themselves to the point they defaulted on their mortgages. The CEOs with their golden parachutes share the guilt with the union workers who refuse wage concessions to make their companies competitive in a world market. Many of the ideas came from liberals who just wanted to make the world a "better place for the people", but conservatives didn't stop them. Governmentally, we forgot the Contract with America, got greedy, spent more than we should on credit, and figured that pulling in the credit market was somehow bad regulation just because it was regulation.

Yes, sometimes we ALL think too narrowly. Capitalism works, but not completely unbridled. Keynsian economics (better called "socialism lite" since it believes there IS such a thing as a free lunch when someone else pays for it) doesn't work. However, capitalism with a modicum of oversight and regulation and LOW taxes does work and it works very very well. It's why people come to America where they can start out digging dishes and end up owning the company.

And, yes, Don Juan, you can still do that here IF you're willing to work for it!

Don Juan
Management of capital between "the haves and the have nots" is charity when done properly and should never be government's decision. That is theft.

Digging ditches
Wow! That was a major typo! Can I blame it on the cold and darkness here in lovely Alaska right now?

LOW taxes are still key!
The idea that government can take the money of a business owner and put it over to say a road project and not expect to negatively impact the business owned is a fallacy. I think of my friend who owns a local business that supports himself, his brother and his parents' retirement. It also employs a dozen people. If you take more taxes from Jon, he's going to have to make it up somewhere. He and his brother aren't making big bucks themselves (both their wives MUST work) and he can't very well tell his 70-year-old parents to go back out into the job market. So, he's going to cut wages and/or cut positions. This negatively affects his workers who may or may not get a job on the road project. Let's say they do. The road project lasts a summer. Winter comes, Jon is still paying high taxes, he can't afford to hire them back, and ....

Government supported road projects are a short-term fix to a long term problem -- meaning they are not actual fix for anything. As long as Jon's profits are going up, he's going to hire more people to grow the business. That's a long-term fix to a long-term problem. And, that's the beauty of capitalism.

KP delivers again
Change the way we think is the conservative antithesis - no wonder KP is hated here.

Dead ideas = 21st century Republican Party

Bunk...
"I know, I know. But don't dismiss Miller without hearing him out. He has some compelling ideas that, though they seem at first counterintuitive, are ultimately reasonable."

I don't have to hear him out. He has no ideas that are new or different. It's just run of the mill, mushy moderate-ism that ultimately concedes to the to the Left. We tried that with Bush and look where we are. Now I know why you are published in National Review, Parker. You sound much like Frum or Charen, endorsing such political relativism, that amounts simply to plain old statism all over again.

KP changed the way she thinks,
apparently. She now "thinks" like all her Georgetown cocktail party friends; wealth = BAD, conservatives = dumb, liberals = smart, gubmint = GOOD!!!,

Compared to Sowell, Williams, Limbaugh, Malkin, Will or even O'Reilly, Catty is the lightest of lightweights.

NO rating, again. Why do I bother? The comments are pretty entertaining.

Pig
Just dropped by to read some of the comments and give the pig her weekly 1 rating. It'll be a record for the lowest rated columnist on Townhall.

LOL
This conventional wisdom that the U.S. economy is unregulated is simply laughable.

We have a mixed economy, e.g. one that has elements of free market capitalism and state socialism, and we have had this mixed economy since the 1930s.

A fiscal conservative columnist would be arguing for smaller government, less intrusion, and lower taxes. So, I guess it is safe to say that Ms. Parker is no fiscal conservative. We know all to well by now that she is certainly no social conservative. I recall no evidence of her supporting, in any serious way, our recent efforts against muslim fundamentalist terror, which pretty much rules out the possibility that she is any sort of neoconservative.

OK, what sort of conservative is she? If she is not a conservative, why does she remain here? This is a place for conservatives to debate, innovate, and commiserate. If I want to read the conventional wisdom as defined by the nomenklatura, I will read the Washington Post.




My last post to Kathleen
logically incorrect... to the point of absurd. Economists point out the obvious and - unlike politicians - do not attempt to define who wins and who loses. So, yes, the world is better off with free trade.
The world economy changes and we must change with it. Anybody who buys a newspaper company today is a fool who deserves to lose his money. That's the way of the world. You want better banks? Then don't bail out the losers banks today. Potential failure makes for responsible decisions.

New Development

By David Cho and Lori Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, January 9, 2009; 6:35 PM

In a move being coordinated with the Obama transition team, senior Bush administration officials are preparing to ask lawmakers for the second half of the $700 billion financial rescue package, despite intense opposition in Congress, sources familiar with the matter said.
------------------------------------------------
Hard to believe that GWBush would want to go out hand in hand with Obama singing a Lenin song.... I must be losing my mind. Say it ain't so ,Joe.

Another KP hobby?
How about javelin catching? Tsunami surfing? Grizzly bear artificial insemination?


-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

A Familiar Tune and a Few Lies
First the familiar tune. Historians of Great Britain at the beginning of the 20th century will recognize the problems Parker and Miller recognize and the solutions they advocate. Those same solutions basically led to the decline and eventual fall of Great Britain. Joespeh Chamberlain's ideas on free trade and protectionism sound very similiar to Miller, and even Buchannan.

Second the lies. In this period of astronomical government regulation and intervention in the free market, can anyone really argue that the market is truly free to regulate itself. Example, restritions on where the free market can find and extract oil. Example, Freddie and Franny monkeying with the housing market.

I'm always leary of advice to kill the patient in order to save him.

KP's column vote totals
Her columns are always amusing for the vitriol she receives and so richly deserves and the troll's attempts to point out our great intellectual voids for not seeing her insipid, squishy brand of moderate "conservatism" as reasonable.

My wish would be that we would be able to vote without a check (zero, libs) to see if the troll's 5's could get her up to the one she currently enjoys every week because we can't go lower. Here is my tally KP: 1

I'd give her a 2 or a 3 if she would just earn it!

Get rid of KP!
"Here's a paradoxical thought to get you started: We have to increase taxes and federal programs to save the capitalist system.

I know, I know. But don't dismiss Miller without hearing him out. He has some compelling ideas that, though they seem at first counterintuitive, are ultimately reasonable."

___________________

Now she's here at TH unabashedly selling big gov'mint socialism.

Miller must have deeply impressed KP at the last pre-inaugural DC sex orgy she attended. I'm sure he provided lengthly inspiration for every inch of her column.

For your information, KP, the capitalist system thrived before there was any gov'mint 'needed to save it'.

Worst article ever
This is by far the worst article that I have ever read at Townhall.com.

I would like to second Texan's comment.
This article is not really an article but an advertisement for some article written by a Clinton hack. Is there a term for stupid squared?

Definition of a twunt
Someone who hangs around a place long after its been made known to her that she is not wanted, needed or matters.

Richard
I was going to point out that the one qualification Obama has over the guys down at the bar, Sarah Palin and all the other also rans was that he won the election.

Then I saw your analysis of his cabinet picks:

For example your odds re the Bush/Clinton admin:

5% chance it will be an improvement
45% chance it will be different
45% that it will be worse
5% that it will be much much worse

You mention a "good change" that within 4 years:

inflantion will be at 50%
unemployement at 40%
75% we will have a new Sedition Act making it a crime to critize the president and congress like John Adams in 1798.

Would you please explain these claims to me?
1. What do you mean by Bush/Clinton admin?
2. How do you calculate the odds you state regarding the "difference"?
3. How do you calculate the odds yous state regarding the other predictions?

To the untrained eye, it would appear that you pulled it all out of your, er, hat?

Jeremy
Certainly the US Economy is regulated. But it was the unregulated bits (hedge funds, CDO's and credit swaps) or the insufficiently enforced regulation (Madoff) that caused the lion's share of the problems. The market can not make up for the fact that, left to themselves, humans will try to get over on each other. Regulation is a necessary evil.

Big Jim
Wouldn't you say that the toll of two successive world wars, especially given the devastating toll on young men, plus the loss of its empire had as much, if not more, to do with Britain's decline as any particular economic policies?

The Parker Problem
To follow Parker's logic, if we let the all the murderers, thieves and rapists out of prison that will lead to a dramatic decrease in crime!

Yes, Yes. Thinking paradoxically. That is what B. Hussein Obama meant by change.

We must all believe six impossible things before breakfast and forget how Reagan got us all out of a similar pickle in 1981. Surely that Reagan’s trick would not work twice; right?

Right?

kathleen,
in the words of the great "star nazi," (aka soup nazi), "No star for you."

nomo

"Subject: KP delivers again
Change the way we think is the conservative antithesis - no wonder KP is hated here.

Dead ideas = 21st century Republican Party"


Problem raising taxes and increasing regulation is not a new idea. Anyone who thinks it is was born yesterday.

Thank you
... I hope that conservatives recover soon from their ideological simplifications - or better from simplifying their own ideology.

The global economic and political landscape has changed and this country needs to adjust to be successful.

Centrists on both sides have to come together to find solutions. And for every hardliner conservative: Just yelling at each other didn't seem to work out so well, didn't it?

Coexist!

Greg it would be more correct
to say he bought the election.
as for were I get my odds its called the study of history. I know history and study are un-naturial concepts to liberals but intelligent people find them interesting and usefull.

I call it the clinton/bush admin because 95% of bush's policies were the same as clinton's. Policy wish there was not a pence worth of difference between clinton and bush.

If you look at Obama cabnet picks you see that his admin is 90% made up of old bush and clinton people meaning that there is little chance he will do anything different from clinton or bush. We already have 16 years of those policies failing and makeing things worst so it doesn't take much effort to say Obama will make things worst the only question is just a little, a great deal or something in the middle between bad and worst.

As for the employemment and inflantion rates we know from history what the results of Obama recovery plans have been there is no logical or intelligent reason to think things will turn out different this time just to make Obama happy.


As for the last it is what liberals and democrats always do when things get bad check Wilson in 1917, and FDR in 1942. When ever democrats make a holy mess of government they pass laws limiting freedom starting with free speech.

Eddie Too
"For example, we need a mechanism to reduce the influence of special interests on lawmakers."

Eddie, I knew there had to be SOMETHING that you and I would agree on. :)

special interest is government
special interest was the reason humans invented government in the first place. Special interest are like terrorist in that one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One person special interest is another persons constituency. You can no more get rid of special interest than you can government. The only way to reduce the influcence of special interest is to reduce the influcence and power of government.

Anyone that doesn't understand that is living in a fools fantasy world.

Richard
It's one thing for a senator or representative to advocate for industries that are in his district/state but it's another for those industries to be paying money to woo congresspeople that are not. It has little to do with perspective and more to do with subtle bribery.

Nate It has to do with
the difference between reality and fantasy. That has been the way of government since the beginning of time today is no different that 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago or 10,000 years ago. Those with money have always bought politicans and politicans have always sold their position of power. Nothing is ever going to change that and to think other wise is to live in a fools world.

Richard
I agree with just about everything you said except for the underlying premise you make that we shouldn't bother to do anything about it.

We'll never be able to stop theft or rape(I chose these randomly) completely but that doesn't stop us from making laws against it and trying to prevent it.

But Nate
theft or rape are not a design let alone the prime design function of society or government.

Government by design functions using money from special interest and is designed to support special interest.

To change that is like trying to design a computer that uses monoary instead of binary logic its not possible.

Richard
Government taxes everything, from the richest man to the poorest man. Government revenue comes from everyone, not just special interests. The intended use of that money and the power that a government wields is to benefit everyone, not just special interests.

Just to clarify though, what exactly do you mean by special interests? When I say the term, I mean the lobbying of government officials by corporations or organizations with specific goals in mind that may benefit them specifically, regardless if they benefit, or hurt, others.

Nate a special interest
is anyone that wants something from the government. Like I said weather a group that is lobbing government aim is to benefit everyone or just a small group entirely depends if you are getting the benefit. Every single group or corporation that labbies governments claims it is for the benefit of everyone. You can't find a single example were I can't make the case that everyone benefits if government just does what the special interest says it should. Corporate wants something I can make the case that everyone not just the corporation will benefit. Union wants something I can show were everyone will benefit from it not just union members.

Taxes are not about funding government its about power to control people. It is also has nothing to do with benefit everyone or even anyone. The reason behind taxes is to punish not benefit.

Richard
I have studied history too, as well as mathematics, especially with regard to probability. Probability is based on the ratio of the chances of something happening against the chances of it not happening. This is not generally something that can be extracted from the "study of history". Not, at least, without numerical analysis.

On what *facts* do you base your assertions. You say that 95% of Bush policies were the same as Clinton's. This has not been my experience, nor those of the many Conservatives-not-in-name-only I know who love Bush and hate Clinton. So, aside from the fact that you presumably disagreed with them, how were they the same? Which policies.

Your statement re Wilson and Roosevelt do not support your assertion that "is what liberals and democrats always do when things get bad". 1917 was the year we entered World War I and 1942 was effectively the year entered World War II (technically we declared war in December, 1941). Might this be the more likely connection? I believe Lincoln passed similar legislation during the Civil War and it could be argued that the Patriot Act was more of the same. And then there was Nixon's domestic spying program during Viet Nam.

I'm not suggesting that war justifies the suspension of civil liberties, but rather that it also is used as a justification.

You are making a lot of assertions. I am not saying they are not true, but please provide the facts on which they are based.

greg can you name one
policy differnce between the bush and clinton admin?

look at trade both supported NAFTA, both granded China favorite trade partner status, both supported China joining the IMF.

Both supported regime change in Iraq and Iran, both supported unconstitutional wars. both missused the military in nation building, same policy on the Balkins, same policy on Russia.

Same policy on drugs, gays in the military, social security, perscripion drugs.

I think getting us involved in an illegal war in Russia was a big part of the reason Wilson needed to limit free speech also the mess he made in Mexico, and latin America. WWI was just one of the messes Wilson made. Same with FDR WWII was one of the messes his admin made that required limiting free speech. And it was LBJ a liberal democrat that started domestic spying during Vietnam and the war was just one of the messes LBJ needed to limit free speech to hid.

Richard
Since your similarities between Bush and Clinton were mostly foreign policy related, I'll pick the major policy difference between them there: Clinton worked with other countries to build consensus and use multinational institutions to execute his foreign policy goals whereas Bush's foreign policy has taken a more of a go-it-alone, "coalition of the willing" approach.

I don't remember Clinton pursuing regime change in either Iraq or Iran, and the Russia faced by Clinton (under Yeltsin) is rather different from that faced by Bush. What similarity do you see here?

According to the IMF website (http://www.imf.org/external/country/chn/rr/glance.htm) China was a founding member of the IMF in 1945, and the People's Republic assumed the responsibility for China's relations with the IMF in 1980. Perhaps you mean the WTO?

I take it from the rest of your response that you are an isolationist; is this correct? Are you opposed to free trade in general or NAFTA in particular? Or do you think NAFTA is ok, and just throw it out as an example of where Bush and Clinton agreed on the right thing?

What policies do you as the same in terms of drugs, gays in the military, social security and prescription drugs?

As for the rest of your response, you have not addressed my question as to whether the clamp down on civil liberties had more to do with being a nation at war then Democrats being in the White House. Instead of addressing the examples I gave of Republicans who had done the same in time of war, you simply extended your assertions against the Democrats. What of the Republican examples I gave?

Finally, I am still waiting for the numbers on which you based your predictions.

Thanks!
Greg

Richard
While you're explaining yourself Richard, I'm interested in why you think taxes are about punishing people? Does that mean when the government funds the construction of a dam, or the levees in New Orleans, they are doing that as a form of punishment since the funds used to do that came from taxes?

I'm curious because I've never heard that theory before.

Really Greg
clinton build consensus when he bombed the aspirin factor in the Sudan? He build consensus when he bombed the villagers in Pakistan? Don't remember that. I do remember that bush build consensus for going into Afganistan and Iran that was bigger than the one clinton had for drop ten thousand tons of bombs on Iraq. It was also bigger than the consensus clinton had for drop several hundred tons of bombs on the balkans. Seems pretty much like bush and clinton followed the same policies to me.

I'm isolationist in a libertarian way i.e. I think people should be free to deal with foriegn countries as they wish but the USA government should mind its own damn business and not get involved in foriegn countries.

Both bush and clinton supported the so called war on drugs and keeping harmless rec drugs illegal. Both supported do say for gays in the military, both supported government funding of perscription drugs, both supported explanding social security.

I'd say it had more to do with domestic issues that war since it limited domestic free speech and press and had nothing to do with the war itself. As for your one example of a republican while yes as bush has shown being liberal is more a deciding factor in limiting freedom than being republican is.

Nate lots of ways
government can rise funds from fees, for example. However the main porpose of taxes is not the rising of funds its to control the public throught punishment. If you don't do as the government wants or give the politician what the politicians wants then your taxes are rised or at the very least your taxes are audited.

Want a tax break for your corporation or for yourself find that will be a few millions to my re-election fund. What you dare to print something I disliked find your being audited. Or your station showed a program I didn't like your taxes just happen to be rised really honestly it had nothing to do with your anti-government program.

As for the building of damns and levees that the other side the reward half of the equation. Has nothing to do with taxes.

Its been used since time began you can read alot about the use of taxes to punish people in history Henry the VIII and Henry V used it a lot. Edward the III even more so. It was a big part of how the Roman empire keep power so long.

Richard
I don't doubt that taxes have been used to control people in the past. However, I don't think you can make the analogy that the U.S. tax system is being used the same way that kings of old used their systems. There was no media, no accountability, no checks and balances in government.

I also don't doubt that there are instances where corrupt politicians or government officials manipulate the system. I don't think it's fair to say that it is the norm everywhere. If that were the case, we wouldn't have a media. Considering that a lot of people think the media is completely biased, and that the Republicans have had the White House for the last 8 years, and Congress for 6 of the last 8 years, your example would show taxes on media companies rising significantly as their alleged bias continued.

A government without taxes to support itself is a paper doll. Taxes, no matter what your stance on how high or low they should be, are absolutely necessary for any government to function.

Yes the media is biased
liberal biased. Congress has for 20 years been controled by liberals liberals, have control the white house for 20 years and the media has been controled by liberals for 40 years.

However that is not the point look at how little reporting the media does on the government. The majority of the so called news is sports and hollywood and TV gossip. What little reporting there is is majority pro-government. Look how the media covered up the housing crisis, the whole financial crisis in general. Look at the free ride the media is giving the bail out they have failed to ask a single hard question about were the money has gone and what it has gone for. They take the pro-government hands outs that whitewash the government and claim they are reporting the news.

Taxes on the media haven't risen much because the media has followed its governmental orders and hidden the news from the public.

Want another example look at how the media caved on Iraq. The government issued the orders the media obeyed.

Government could easly fund what it needs to do by ways other than taxes in fact it would rise lots more money by other means however it couldn't control the public as easy by those means.

The Parker Problem
Yeah uh, Parker – WHOOPS! I mean "Greg":

"Clinton worked with other countries to build consensus"?

Yeah he did a bang up job in N. Korea didn’t' he?

Pretending a problem (and nuclear armed North Korea is a big problem) isn't there does not "build consensus". That’s a case of the world’s sole remaining Superpower being willfully blind.

Some leadership that is.

Hey John
I didn't mean to get into an argument over the pros and cons of Bill Clinton; I was just making the point that he took a more multilateral approach to foreign policy than George Bush has.

Richard, what I have enjoyed
about our exchange is that is has encouraged me to go back and check my assumptions - such as that the Clinton and Bush administrations pursued palpably different policies. I am still working through your last bunch, so please bear with me.

In the meanwhile, I think we are stumbling over the definition of the words Liberal and Conservative. I've been going with the standard (and admittedly inaccurate) usage of Democrat = Liberal, Republican = Conservative.

What do you define as Liberal. Is there a better word we can be using, as Liberal may well be one of the more overused and abused words in recent political history.

Also, since you still have not provided any numerical basis for your earlier predictions, can we assume that they are your gut sense of what will happen and not based on any particular set of facts? I am eager to lay that issue to bed so we can move on to more substantive issues.

Greg
both I could go through every policy they have number them and list how they are the same but since I can think of one diffence its kinda meaningless.

Liberal classical or modern American?

Modern American is easy a liberal is someone who believes in big government-big business solution to all problems. They beleive individual are unimportant and the group is all important. Group rights important individual rights meaningless, group responsibility all important no such thing as individual responsibility. The military should be used to promote social engineering like nation building in the third world not for defense of the nation.

Liberals beleive in war on drugs, war on poverity, any solution that requires limiting individual freedom while expanding government. Same with big business liberals support companies like Wal-mart and Disney instead of local stores. Propagandist have all ways known that its easer to move large groups instead of individuals.

Richard
Is that really what you think the definition of a liberal is?

You know, it makes sense now. I've always wondered why I've been unnaturally drawn to Walmart and why I am constantly humming hakuna matata.

Nate it is what a
modern American liberal is. Big government beig bussiness, big solutions everything for the group nothing for the individual. Insect mentality which is why modern American liberalism has always failed and made things worst because unlike what liberals think humans are humans not ants or bees.

Richard
You cast a wide net with your definition of Liberal. For example, I imagine that many on this website are in favor of the war on drugs, shop at Wal-mart and, if they boycott Disney, do so because of their social policies rather than because they are big business. On the other hand, there are many Liberals who oppose Wal-mart, Disney and other big businesses for much the same reason I imagine you do. Let's call them the buy local set.

That said, given your definition, Bush would be a Liberal given his expansion of the government and use of the military. By the same token, wouldn't Reagan - who oversaw an expansion of the military, was fiercely devoted to the war on drugs and used the military for all sorts of social engineering in Latin America and ran up enormous deficits by Bush - be a Liberal by this definition too?

Perhaps we should not use the word Liberal here.

BTW, I consider myself a "Liberal Republican" in that I believe in small government, an internationalist foreign policy and individual freedom. Despite the abuse "Liberal" has taken, I hearken back to the classical liberalism of 19th century Britain - it's all about freedom.

I think there we may have some common ground?

I know several people
who mistakenly think they are liberal when in fact they are conservative or liberal as in 18th century liberal model.

I wouldn't put Reagan as a liberals because he didn't push increase in domestic spending. Congress increased it over his objection, I fault him for refusing to stand up to congress veto their budget.

He didn't use the military for social engineer in Latin America he helped those that were fighting there but he didn't send in the military to build nations. His military build up was directed at the old USSR and it worked.


While I certainly don't fit
your definition of Liberal - I think we can agree on that - my positions are what used to be called Liberal Republican (or Rockefeller Republican) back in the 1970's.

What I find most interesting is that in Europe the word "Liberal" is equally loaded, but from the other side. There, Liberals are seen as advocates of free market capitalism, red in tooth and claw.

In the end, it's just a word. I imagine in the end I'm just one of those hated moderates - given how many people seem to be on either side of me at any given moment.

As I recall, Reagan did not veto the budget as his priority was to expand the military rather than fight congress to trim the government. Not unlike Bush in that regard.

While he did, in the end, bring down the USSR, his obsession with anti-communism landed us in bed with some pretty odd fellows.

while you can say the same
about FDR whose obsession with Germany put him in bed with an even bigger mass murder Stalin. And what about JFK?

Realisticly he did after the biggest threat unlike bush, clinton, carter etc who always when after the little threats which were not much of a risk to the country.

Being a moderate isn't always a bad thing but its not always a good thing either. For example its not good to be moderate when it comes to slavery.

I follow the old saying
I want liberals out of my wallet and conservatives out of my bedroom.

Which is why I'm a Libertarian.

As to slavery
isn't that a case where government intervention was required? It seems, given the history of man, that slavery is just one of those things we do, left to our own devices.

On a less grotesquely obvious scale, we (speaking generally, not me and you) tend to want to skew the playing field in our favor - I believe there is some ranting on this on the next article. Is this not also a place where the government should be involved - as a referee?

I guess I don't have enough faith in human nature to be a Libertarian - once the conch shell shatters we revert to the most ruthless of creatures.

Greg
Your point is exactly why I can't commit myself to many conservative princples. I especially worry about the effects corporations and big business would have if all government regulation and oversight, or at least the threat of those things, were removed. I don't personally enjoy paying taxes either but I feel they are necessary.

I've seen many a conservative in abortion arguments say that it is the duty of the government to protect it's citizens. Is that not what public assistance programs are ultimately doing? Yes, I realize there is waste and that there are people who shamefully take advantage of the system but there are people who genuinely need it as well. I don't advocate a gigantic government, only a government that is as big as it needs to be. I don't want the government to regulate everything but I also don't want the government to not regulate anything.

Richard, your definition of liberalism is a bit skewed.

Nate its based on reality
which many people see as skewed.

Greg if you check close you will see that it has always been governments as far back as Egpyt that has promoted slavery not poeple. Slavery in the American was a produce of British government policy not individual people. Slavery exist all over the world today as government policy not as individual choice. Given the choice people don't support slavery because the cost far out run the benefits.

Nate I'd say no public assistance programs are note ultimately of benefit to anyone. In fact they are not design to benefit people but government by giving control to the government. public assistance programs are really nothing more than the first step of government slavery. In fact if you look at ever time the in histroy that government has pushed slavery they have done so in the name of public benefit to the slave. After all look at how much benefits the slave gets free food, feed medical care, free house, free education, all for a mimumin amount of work. Sounds just like public assistance programs doesn't it?

Ricahrd
No, it doesn't. You're leaving out one very important aspect of your government assistance = slavery argument. What is the government getting in return from this "slavery"? Why are government assistance programs voluntary with the goal of many of those programs being that the person or family involved get to the point where they no longer need said program?

What does the government get?
a dependent easly control population of sheep that does as its order and makes no problem for thier government masters.

And who said that goal is people no longer needing government assistance? That is simple not true the problems are set up so that its very easy to get on the programs and all but impossible to get off them.

A good example is the new children medical plan congress just passed. Nlow even upper middle class will be encouraged to join and once on they will find it almost impossible to get off and the people in the programs will be a lot less likely to be critical of the government for fear that the government will punish them through limiting medical care for their children.

Richard
What evidence do you have that it is extremely hard to get off of a program such as SCHIP, the insurance program you were mentioning.

I think you have a lot of distrust for authority. That's not all bad. You should always question power. I do think you're extremely paranoid though, more so than evidence warrants.

Most likely less
so than evidence warrants. Its something that happens from reading and studying a lot of histroy. Its hard, alomst impossible, to find any time in histroy were government has not been the enemy of the people and freedom. The few times the people have been able to put government in its place its not lasted long.

I suggest reading Kipling.

As to what evidence I have that it will be hard to get off SCHIP I'd suggest looking at Medicaid, and food stamps as two examples of how once people are trapped into government programs they find it very hard to get out.

Slavery may have been defended
as for the benefit of the slave - usually in the context of the slave is unfit to rule himself - but individuals certainly seem eager to enslave their fellows - look at indentured servitude, company stores and sharecropping, and the lives of sex workers the world over.

The problem I see with Libertarianism is that it is based on the premise that left to their own devices, humans will treat each other fairly. There is less evidence for this than for governments not being oppressive.

On the government being the enemy of the people, I'd say it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Last night I stopped at a deli to get a sandwich. As I stood their, Richard, I thought of you. I wanted to point out this most beneficial part of having a government that regulates health standards - that I can go into a deli, order a sandwich, and be fairly confident that I will not get food poisoning or worse.

Obviously, the government does an imperfect job, and we all have horror stories of corruption and greed. Still, the safety of our food supply, restaurants, etc. are clearly a government success story, no?

Government is by definition the institution of power. And like all institutions, its original purpose struggles with the desire to grow larger, to accrue more power, to continue at all costs. Its almost as though institutions have the survival instinct.

To me, the art of governing is to channel the instinct to thrive and survive that all institutions must need to function at all in such a way that they fulfill the purposes for which the institution was founded in the first place.

If you look at what happens where governments fail altogether - Somalia, pre-Taliban Afghanistan, Europe in the Middle Ages, Sicily - the results are hardly encouraging. Local warlords and/or mafias tend to fill the void.

Do you see no good coming from the government, Richard?

Very little
and mostly in the form of provide a common defense.

Given the hundreds of thousands of times every year people get food posioning I'd say the government is not doing a very job there. So to answer your question no its not a success story. More proof is all the problems with imported food.

Your wrong about Libertarianism it has nothing to do with fairness which is a phony concept anyway there is noting fair about the world never has been never will be. When someone tells me something was unfair I know they are a loser looking for an excuss for their failure.

Libertarianism is based on the reality that people will always act according to what they think is in their best interest. Is it in a deli owner's best interest to poison his customer and go broke no so he'll not do it. However today he doesn't have to worry about that because if he does its not his problem its the government. Its in his best interest not to care about weather his customers get poisoned or not because he has the government to protect and cover his backside.

I fail to see a major or important difference between Local warlords and/or mafias and the government. Both practice the same protection rackets, the same scams. The only difference is that governments are better at it.

Richard
The government is not going to protect the deli owner who lets the conditions in his restaurant deteriorate to the point of making customers sick. The government is going to order the deli to be shut down until it's cleaned up and can pass a health inspection and the deli owner could possibly be sued. The government would not prevent him from being sued, nor come to his defense.

It's funny Greg, yesterday I had the very same little epiphany about government and health regulations that you did.

Nate maybe in a perfect world
but not in this one. The government would only close the deli if the owner couldn't or refused to pay off. And once the owner pays off you can be sure the government is going to protect him and keep him from being sued.

How many companies were sued and how many closed over all that food poison last year? Zero none zip. They paid the government protected the public suffered. That the real world of government.

Richard
I don't doubt there are government officials who accept bribes and payoffs just like I don't doubt that there are government officials who do not and fulfill the duties of their jobs.

The government is not an entity. It is made up of lots of people. Some may be corrupt, others are not.

Nate if they work for government
they are corrupt. People only take government jobs because they are either to lazy or to dishonest for real work.

Richard
That's a grossly inaccurate accusation to be making. I personally know many government employee's and they are nothing like the corrupt or lazy people you describe. Is it possible you're talking out of your rectum?

As Jack Webb said so
well playing Joe Friday just the facts, nothing but the facts. I've never meet a government employee outside of the military or police that wasn't lazy or corrupt most being both. I suppost that since most anything is possible that there is one or two that aren't but they would be a rare beastie to be sure. Most likely they would find a real job once they saw what kind of people they were associated with.


By the way did you see the news about the peanut butter poisoning? Seems like another fine example of the government keeping our food safe doesn't it?

Richard
No system is perfect Richard. It's hard to prove how many incidents like that are prevented by government standards and regulations. I have a feeling that since those regulations are there, companies will be more likely to have stricter quality controls but that doesn't mean that nothing will ever happen.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but that doesn't mean we can prevent everything little thing.

BTW, it's awfully nice of you to admit that there might be one or two honest government employees but you're still making a gross generalization that you probably have no factual evidence to support.

Nate we can look at history
How many poisoning cases were there before all this government regulation and how many since. Do you checking and you will see that all these government regulation have bought the taxpayer nothing.

Look at the war on drugs trillions spend on government regulation and enforcement and the problem of drug abuse is worst than when there was no DEA or government regulation on drug use.

I've got the fact that I've never meet a honest hardworking government employee in 50 years but meet thousands with their hand out for a bribe.

Richard
Well, we'll just agree to disagree then on your assessment of government workers.

The war on drugs is different. I happen to agree with your criticism, it has gotten us nowhere. As long as there are people in this country that want illegal drugs, there will be people getting it for them and we'll never stop it. Drug addiction and the crime that hard drug addiction can cause are a real problem but the war on drugs isn't really helping it.

Since you are absolutely against government regulation, what is the alternative that you're proposing here? Nothing? Just let corporations do as they will and cross our fingers that they police themselves?

follow the Libertarians plan
which would allow individual to sue any corportion that they feel is harming them. That is what we did during the 19th century and it worked a lot better than the government regulation method we are using now.

Richard
But an individual can still sue any company they feel has treated them wrong. You also have to keep in mind that not everyone can afford the legal representation necessary to sue a large corporation who will have the resources to drag the court battle on for years. Your idea will prevent people in the lower income brackets from having a chance to recover damages.

They can sue and win
because government regulation gives them perfect cover. Its never the corporation fault because they are protected by just saying it is covered by the government regulation. Lower income people have use protection now because of government regulation protecting the corporation.

History shows that the how it was handled in the 19th century provided better protection for low income people that the modern day method of government regulation.
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