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Saturday, December 06, 2008
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Them Oogedy-Boogedy Blues
by Kathleen Parker
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WASHINGTON -- When it comes to irresistible words, "oogedy-boogedy" has few peers.

In the several days since I first used the term in a column describing the Republican Party's "religious" problem, oogedy-boogedy seems to have entered the bloxicon. (New word invented right here, meaning: the blogosphere's lexicon.) Google produces more than 26,000 references.

Despite its sudden popularity, oogedy-boogedy is nonetheless causing some consternation and confusion. What does it mean and whence does it come? In the Dec. 15 issue of National Review, Ramesh Ponnuru writes that he doesn't know what oogedy-boogedy means, "but I gather it's bad."

Not so bad, really, but not so good either. Like most things religious and political, it's a matter of taste and timing. (See Ecclesiastes 3:1).

First, to the origins. "Oogedy-boogedy" was bequeathed to me several years ago by my dear, departed friend, political cartoonist Doug Marlette. We were doubtless talking about our shared Southern heritage, about which one does not speak long without mentioning religion.

And, you betcha, oogedy-boogedy.

Marlette, whose childhood was spent among Pentecostals, Baptists and other passionate believers, had religion in his bones and forgot more scripture than most preachers can recall on a given Sunday. He also won a Pulitzer Prize for his lampooning of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker (peace be upon them) and their "PTL Club."

If Jim and Tammy Faye put you in mind of oogedy-boogedy, you're getting warm.

Otherwise, the term may best be illuminated by two connoisseurs of the linguistic arts: Fats Waller and U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart.

The latter, unable to define pornography, famously said, "I know it when I see it." Waller, responding to a request to explain "swing," said, "If you got to ask, you ain't got it."

The list of commentators who ain't got oogedy-boogedy is long, though Ponnuru is the most recent to out himself. While dismissing assertions -- mine and others' -- that the Republican Party has a religion problem, Ponnuru acknowledges that social conservatives "could present themselves more attractively," and "pick their spokesmen more wisely."

That's a start, but let's take it another step. How about social conservatives make their arguments without bringing God into it? By all means, let faith inform one's values, but let reason inform one's public arguments.

That was and remains my point. It isn't so much God causing the GOP problems; it's his fan club.

The broad perception among centrists, moderates, conservative Democrats, renegade Republicans, etc., is that the GOP is the party of white Christians to the exclusion of others, some of whom might also be social conservatives.

One can believe this or not. But as the gazillions who have written me to say either that "God Is Here To Stay" or that "Conservatives Won't Be Silenced" ought best to know: Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it untrue.

It may be, as Ponnuru insists, that Barack Obama won for other reasons (health care, for instance) than that evangelicals repelled the less overtly religious. But oogedy-boogedyness remains a problem for the GOP, as hundreds of other letter writers confirm.

As long as the religious right is seen as controlling the Republican Party, the GOP will continue to lose some percentage of voters, and that percentage likely will increase over time as younger voters shift away from traditional to more progressive values.

The cause is not helped when someone of the stature of Rick Warren interviews the leading presidential candidates in his church, questioning them about their faith. If that's not a religious test, I don't know what is.

The glue that binds the GOP's religious right -- social issues, especially abortion -- is not insignificant and doesn't deserve to be dismissed. But nor should those issues be tied to scripture. Some religious conservatives understand this, but the memo apparently isn't reaching all the pews.

They might take a cue from Nat Hentoff, a self-described Jewish-atheist, who has written as eloquently as anyone about the "indivisibility of life" and the slippery slope down which abortion leads. He uses logic and reason to argue that being pro-life, rather than resolving the religious question of ensoulment, is really a necessary barrier against selective killing, such as when someone else decides it's your time to die.

Hentoff's arguments, and others on related issues, ultimately may fail. But at least they will fail for reasons other than that oogedy-boogedy got in the way.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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Arrogant
twit!

Worthless
It is difficult to refrain, but I will.

What?
Are you still quacking Kathleen?

odd column
It looks like Parker has gotten past being offended by the vitriol that came her way when she had the nerve to talk accurately about Palin, and is now enjoying her pariah status.

ignorant as well as arrogant
After mistakenly assuming that Christians are "white" (perhaps she doesn't know many Christians), Kathleen Parker demands of Christians that if they have any reasons for being pro-life which would not appeal to a Jewish atheist that they refrain from expressing them. As a Christian I am glad Nat Henthoff is pro-life; why should he not be glad I am as well, even though he does not agree with all of my reasons for being so? And as long as we agree on being pro-life why should Parker require that I restrict myself to reasons which please her sensibilities?

Matthew 6: 5-6
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Ms. Parker is obsessed with abortion.
Perhaps her own life choices are haunting her.

Ms. Parker
just won the lottery. I know, because this crap will not sell.

Voice of Reason
Thanks, Kathleen. I have long admired your steady, common sense advocacy for conservative principles, and your skills as a writer.

I initially didn't agree with your assessment of Sarah Palin. I thought she was a powerhouse in the making - at first. I have since come to see the wisdom in your analysis. Sarah is not ready for prime time, yet. And she is not well served by the butt-snorkelers who tell her how wonderful she is. She has the potential to be a great republican politician, and I hope that she does, but she has a lot of work to do first.

And your commentary is spot on, as usual. There are many republicans (and would-be republicans) like me, who believe that conservative social mores (pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-family, mind-your-own-business, don't tattle on your neighbors, Golden Rule, etc.) are important for a healthy society, and worthy of rigorous defense, but don't like their noses rubbed in religion, in which we place little faith.

The extremist zealots on both ends of the spectrum are remarkably alike, and equally despicable.

Oh for anti-Christian biggotry K-Park
KP says, "By all means, let faith inform one's values, but let reason inform one's public arguments."

So, there is no reasoning going on in the pea sized little brains of us Christians Ms. Parker ?

Reminds me of when Rush talks about congressional libs' propensity for pulling the door open, right into their own noses.Kathleen Parker simply cannot stop calling us dimwits.

Ms. Parker, if you're listening, please open your heart and get yourself to a quality Bible study. Your mind is so shut, and you are so self blinded to the truth (or even a consideration of it), that I fear you will be hopelessly lost if you don't respond soon. Please trust me, I was an atheist for 40+ years before I fell on my face in love with Him. It can happen to you too, at least, if you haven't hardened your heart beyond all hope. And I don't think you have, because you care about the things that some are saying.
Just check it out, w/ an open mind, for a couple of months and see what happens. Learn who Jesus was and what it really means that He CHOSE the cross. If you can't get to a Bible study try reading "Traveling Light", by Max Lucado. If that book does not touch your heart w/ at least a glimpse of the revelation that He is the one true God, then I don't know what would.

Turn to Him, and live for Him, and you will have life eternal.

So.......
once the Christians have been successfully removed form the electoral process, who's next?

Another swing and another miss.
Well, I thought I'd see if she could write something worth reading, but stopped at the phrase "my dear, departed friend, political cartoonist Doug Marlette." Marlette was a hack, on par with Ted Rall. I wonder if he's a dear friend, as well.

Time for Ms. Parker to find another gig. Maybe she can take over for Matthews when he leaves Hardball.

Oh Really?
Kathleen Parker writes:
"The glue that binds the GOP's religious right -- social issues, especially abortion -- is not insignificant and doesn't deserve to be dismissed. But nor should those issues be tied to scripture. Some religious conservatives understand this, but the memo apparently isn't reaching all the pews."

So when I use the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment to condemn abortion, I am wrong to base my opinion on scripture? Guess what? If that "memo?" reaches me in my pew I'll relieve myself on it! Who are you to tell me I shouldn't base some of my opinions on scripture and my faith?

Go away Kathleen Parker...please!


goatlocker
the republicans must tolerate their religious zealots just like the democrats tolerate their members who are not gay or on welfare. they dont like them, but they need their votes, so they pretend to like them. nevermind what you came to think of sarah palin, for a "conservative" columnist to admit it right before an election was playing the "useful idiot" kp did what she could to ensure the obama win, and she has no business airing any more of her drivel in a conservative site. the harm obama will do is incalculable. even if poor ignorant sarah somehow became president, what harm could she do, compared to the messiah? go away, kp. the daily kos has a place for you.

go away kathleen
just go away.

Sarah Palin is a Washington Outsider

Sarah Palin is a Washington Outsider and it shows. I think thats a good thing. She not a lawyer, never been a lobbyist, never worked on any Washington political campaigns but her own.

Others may choose to look down their nose at her. I do not. I thinnk her candidacy for Federal Office is exactly what the founding fathers had in mind for the citizens of the nation.

compassionate conservatism
Compassionate Conservatism is part of what got us in this mess. Most of the conservatives stayed home 11/4 because of it. Saxby Chambliss' double-digit lead in Georgia's runoff election shows that conservative principles expoused by Sarah Palin helped that win. So much for taking religion out of the Republican Party...

Park-ing God
Western civilization is based on Christianity and Ms. Parker says, "Fergitaboutit." It's easier to dismiss Parker and ask her to join the secularists where she belongs. Faith-based conservatives stand on a centuries-old foundation of western civilization's best thinkers and philosophers. Better we should dismiss Parker. If God is dead to Parker so is Parker dead to Town Hall posters.

Schmuckabee
I would agree that the "religious right" sometimes has a problem with their choice of spokesperson(s.) That was clear when Mike Schmuckabee thought it was funny to make jokes about dead pheasants. (Note to Mike: dead parrots and Monty Python are funny; personally sending pheasants to the afterlife, then disrespecting their corpses, comparing them with voters who didn't vote for you is not.) I'd say the word "sick" applies.

Is Parker too overmedicated to articulate what she once would have identified with ease? Failing to separate the wheat from the chaff - which she used to do adroitly - has been replaced by gaffs and re-gaffs.

On Palin, Parker probably - (in her luminescent, perceptive years) - would have observed that Palin's enunciation (particularly of the letter 'O') sounds a little like a Minnesota nun.

A choice between Senator Infanticide, Cheatin' Joe or Bob Dole Redux - and Sister Sarah Palin? I'd choose Sister Sarah. But I'd also agree with Parker than carnival barkers and used car salesmen don't represent Jesus Christ very well - and nor do lightweight former Baptist Ministers who think they're ready to be POTUS.

It's the rule of holes, KP
When your in one, STOP digging. Now, take you foot out of your mouth and step away from the keyboard.

There is no place in this country for religious bigotry. Perhaps you should have stuck with "bitter clingers".

I'll just add that I have lived in the South for over 60 years and I never heard anyone use a term such as you suggest.

What kind of backwoods, sunshine piped in place, are from anyway? Did they hear the war was over yet?

A dream.
What I would give for God Himself to make an announcement in which He declares(regarding His fan club): "These People Do Not Speak For Me".

If Palin is to be admired for being a born again Christian who is a Washington outsider, then I suppose Jimmy Carter must also be similarly admired.

And if Palin ever got to be president, I wonder just how similar her presidency would be to that Famed Peanut Farmer from Plains?

oogedy-boogedy
Kathleen, the roots of oogedy-boogedy are not found in the southern religious right. They are found in the southern NASCAR right! I grew up in Detroit (which is south of, ah, Canada -- of course, it's also north of Canada), and I was raised to be a race car addict, including oogedy-boogedy, which means "get-it-on","peddle-to-the-metal", etc.

Robert.

oogedy-boogedy
Kathleen, the roots of oogedy-boogedy are not found in the southern religious right. They are found in the southern NASCAR right! I grew up in Detroit (which is south of, ah, Canada -- of course, it's also north of Canada), and I was raised to be a race car addict, including oogedy-boogedy, which means "get-it-on","peddle-to-the-metal", etc.

Robert.

Darth Parker1
Sorry Kathleen, but as an atheist who happens to be a strident, staunch social conservative, while I would be receptive to articulating a socially conservative vision without a religious basis, your article is pure sophistry and you know it.

Your selection of the term "oogedy-boogedy" was not coincidental or cute. It was meant to convey that Christians, by believing in God, demonstrate an irrational nature akin to believing in superstitious creatures like the boogeyman. That is what you were comparing God to. I may not believe in God's existence, but I am not so disrespectful to Christians as to mock them, because I recognize that regardless of what each of us thinks on metaphysics, we are able to come to an agreement (albeit for different reasons) on ethics.

That point could have been made, and made easily with supplying a few examples. Rick Warren's "when does a human baby get rights?" question and some exposition on the grounding of a natural rights philosophy would have been good. Asking "what is the purpose of marriage?" and then speaking of our national divorce rates, single-parent homes, and need to retain the integrity of the family unit. In other words, you could have provided and it was incumbent upon you to do so, to articulate how a religious argument might turn someone off, but another one might achieve the same result.

car accident
I can't believe she's still on this site. She's offensive.

Darth Parker2
However, the manner in which you chose to do so was never meant to convince, but to mock and insult the audience you were supposedly addressing.

Social conservatives disdain elitists. They think a two-tiered system of human worth exists, akin to the nobility and peasantry. We detest that on the grounds of it exhibiting hubris and arrogance -- two vices. Yet you have welcomed Obama with open arms despite his commentary about arugula and derisive remarks about people in Pennsylvania.

Social conservatives admire someone who practices what the social conservatism they preach. Sarah Palin certainly did in giving birth to Trig. Yet what do you do? You go off on some English-prof worthy diatribe about how she had seduced McCain, while sounding off on liberal theories that Conservatism does not subscribe to on how education will magically cure poverty and disease when these are the result of 1.) Poor fortune, and 2.) Bad choices (personal responsibility). Speaking of responsibility -- bailing out newspapers? You defend the New York Times as a serious, unbiased newspaper? Please.

Kathleen Parker - defender of elitism and arrogance, vandal of character and responsibility. She is a woman who's turned to embrace all that is wrong with the world, and hence I bestow upon her the title of Darth Parker. Oogedy-boogedy enough for you yet?

Between a rock and oogedy-boogediness
I don't know how much more Ms. Parker has to out herself for Townhall to stop carrying her column.

Certainly there's plenty of other outlets that will publish her. Also, my liberal friends will have to find someone else when they say things like ".. even conservatives like Kathleen Parker don't like Palin..."

I guess Townhall doesn't want to get any Parker Oogedy-Boogedy on their face.

Consequence of a choice & Responsibility
Given the choice between persuasive reasoning that considers the audience's opinions, and proselytizing to the faithful; which do religious conservatives choose?

The wonder is why some conservatives don't understand why they lose elections. They persuade themselves they lost God's favor because they weren't fervent enough. Then they resent it when responsibility for the consequence of their poor choice is laid at their 'doorstep.'

What I Find Interesting
Is that when Kathleen Parker describes the Oogedy-Boogedies' main fault as a failure to present reasoned arguments, instead of faith-based ones, the general reaction here is to claim she is attacking Christians, has betrayed the party and is offensive. My favorites, personally, are the ones who don't read the articles and just vote without thought against it.

And what was this betrayal? To disagree with the choice of vice-presidential candidate just a month before the election. She should have waited until after? Did Kathleen Parker swear some sort of oath to get Republicans elected at all cost? I never swore any such oath. Is this why I haven't gotten my membership card in the vast right-wing conspiracy?

As for me, my loyalty is to my country first, party after. And it is my heartfelt belief that we must have a viable Republican Party as a counterweight to the Democrats. And a viable Republican Party is depends on reaching out beyond the base, towards the middle, towards people for whom the Bible is not the ultimate authority.

I can't speak for Kathleen Parker, nor do I need to. She does so well enough on her own.

There are a lot
of reasons to be conservative, and lots of different people who vote that way for a lot of reasons. Conservative candidates need every vote they can get, for whatever reason. We need votes from people like Parker and people like me, who find her offensive. My quarrel with Parker is that she is throwing people out of the tent. There are tiresome Christians, just as there are tiresome arrogant twits (thank you Tea Party) like Parker. Now having bashed her a time or two, i will respond no more. I don't want the editors of TH to think i pay any attention to her twaddle.

Kathleen, Wobbie,Jerabaub
You folks keep on spouting the same stuff that I step when I'm out in the corral. Please do/say something original.

Ms. Parker
Yeah, you're right about a lot of Christians in the Republican Party. Their dolts, they don't articulate their positions well, they confuse polemics with argumentation, they couldn't find their way through a logical argument to save their lives, and some of them are downright crazy.

But still in all I like 'em and count myself one of them. Know why?

Because, unlike their antagonists,...

they're not liars.

And furthermore
I still maintain that the correct term to use to denigrate evangelical Christians is "Oogely Boogely" and it first was used as a dismissive on the Simpsons.

So there.

Those Who Sow...
Those secularists, atheists, and agnostics who want to replace the teachings of Christianity with a vague, secular-type agreement on ethics and human relations are playing with dynamite. Our ethics, society, and human relations are all based on Christianity and one person, Jesus Christ, who, if not the son of God, was the greatest philospher in history.

A secularist philosophy already has led to the destruction of millions of babies and in some countries has gone further to sanction euthanasia of the aged and sick.

Remember that famous cry in "The Brothers Karamazov," "If there is no God then everything is permitted."

Secularists who sow the wind by disavowing our cultural heritage and foundation will surely reap the whirlwind.


Parker
The peoplescube.com has an editorial naming Kathleen Parker as winner of "The Order of Republican Moderation." She is out of touch with her party and its base that includes the National Black Republican Association. She is also out of touch with social conservatives in the Democratic Party. They voted against same sex marriages in three states in Election 2008. The growing Hispanic vote means the Catholic Church will influence voters more and more in the future, and it is well understood that Blacks in any party hold traditional values, just as most Americans. Parker is advocating a continuation of a losing strategy for the Republican Party, reaching out to the atheists in the middle. McCain Palin lost because McCain is a centrist; he is not socially conservative enough. Parker should reconsider: Political expediency is at its heart dishonest and insincere, which leads to mistakes if we shape strategy from it. I say we should just be ourselves. I suggest that if Parker disdains members of the Republican Party so much that she wages a crusade against them --even during an election--she should leave the party or else discover the missing piece of her heart that seeks to censure people of faith. I do not trust her judgment when she has been so wrong about ordinary people, who I imagine she cannot stand. I did not appreciate her arrogance during the campaign toward Americans.

PLEASE stop...
Posting Parker's articles here. She belongs on Huffpo.

oogedy-boogedy
I was born and reared in SW Georgia, in a rural community, and am a life-long Southern Baptist. I am as well a SBC Pastor, having served in churches for almost 35 years. In all my 60 years, I have never heard oogedy-boogedy used in reference to anyone's religion. The only way I have ever heard the term used was to active pre-schoolers and "fast" boys and girls in high school. Where did Ms. Parker get this connection of oogedy-boogedy to the kind of deeply held faith many in the US have as Christians have? Perhaps, if she'd offer a real definition, as opposed to "if you have it you know it" silliness, we'd all be helped a little. Then, we could figure out, maybe, why conservative Evangelicals are a problem for Republicans. Maybe, we are just a problem for Ms. Parker.

A False Dichotomy.
Ms. Parker's whole argument rests upon the shaky edifice of a false dichotomy between reason and faith. I could understand an argument being made for the primacy of reason over faith, but that would have to made in all walks of one's life--both public and private. Further, I'm not entirely sure how she expects anyone to follow her prescription. How is one supposed to keep one's faith out of public discussions, and instead rely exclusively on a faculty of reason that is somehow based on, and vitally informed by, the very faith from which it is being bifurcated? Even Nietzsche understood that when one divorces Christian values from the Christian religion on which they're based, the whole house of cards will eventually fall. After all, on simply it's own merits, the "Golden Rule" amounts to nothing more than pyrite-covered brass. It is only truly "golden" when it is viewed sub specie aeternatatis.

Tweeting the Twitterati & Oogedy Boogedy
Kathleen Parker is developing her offensive new lexicon with might and mane.

She seems to be taking particular relish in her new role as Editor-in-Chief of the new publication, Anti-Christian Screeds.

Her goal is not to expound or explain. It is to insult and offend.

She is a trash-talking high school snob making fun of the unpopular kids.

Another Home Run
KP is hitting them out of the park with her dead on analysis of the Republican party in it's current state (it's not God it's His fan club).

She was right about Sarah Palin and it showed in the election. The real clear polls show a distinct downturn after the terrific interviews Sarah gave. But most right wing cons will blame the economy for the defeat.
And you will blame the truth tellers like KP for all you woes.

She's probably still posting here because of a contractual obligation and not any feedback
from the irate right wingers.

God is "oogedy boogedy"
With "friends" like you, who needs enemies. You made up a nonsense term with no meaning in an attempt to insult Christian Republicans. You cannot even define it.
Abortion is evil, and must be confronted as evil, no matter if you confront it from a religious perspective or a secular view. Killing the innocent is evil, period. We should never tiptoe around it to get votes.
Everyone who wants to avoid God in politics will some day be standing before Him. Maybe He will tell you what "oogedy boogedy" means right before he sends you to the place you have earned.

Arrogant
Elitest snob ,you are a country club republican of the worst sort.Perhaps it is time to look for a new party .

Kathleen Parker 2 , people of reason 39
et another article that gets low reviews and ratings yet they keep letting her post here.

I think that the list of commentors who want to boot Kathleen is consistantly greater than her supporters. I would hope that Townhall will eventually listen to the marketplace of commentors and send Kathleen Parker back to the liberal media where we won't have to listen to her trying to destroy those she claims to be part of.

Gobbledygook
"As long as the religious right is seen as controlling the Republican Party, the GOP will continue to lose some percentage of voters, and that percentage likely will increase over time as younger voters shift away from traditional to more progressive values."

The Republicans didn't lose because of any affiliation with the religious right. I say that and I'm not a Christian. They lost because they looked too much like Democrats while Bush was president. You think the social conservatives should be ditched. I think the whole Republican party should be ditched. Bush is the true face of the Republican party and that isn't going to change. Certainly not by continuing to vote for them. "Progressive vaules"? Is there such a thing?


oogedy boogedy BOO
Great article Kathleen!

Social conservatives keep acting like they are some kind of victim. They can dish it out at others but they can't take any real criticism.

Look at the majority of responses to Kathleen on here! Most of them are vile childish flames.

The haters always expose themselves. It's a shame the radical religious right has become the voice of the Republican Party.

The radical christians are dragging all of us through the mud.

Their views are extreme and they are dangerous. They have to be challenged in the market place of ideas.

That is why I appreciate Kathleen because she has the guts to stand up to the radicals in our own party.

The social conservatives aka the ones who scream Murder over abortion and whom hate gays (despite always claiming they don't when they do) are out of control. Those who cry about the "War on Christmas" scare me. I mean what are these people on!?? It goes way beyond absurd.

If you want to see Republican Social Conservatives at their craziest then visit the website worldnetdaily.

Those people are truly scary.

Or you could just read the majority of responses to articles on townhall..

Some of you may not agree with Kathleen but at least show her some respect. She has the guts to take you all on and she keeps doing it (despite the hate mail you all send her which just goes to prove her point).


GOP, the party of "white Christians"
coming from a woman who hails from the South, which has only recently gone Republican? (Yes, I know Obama won the South this go-round!)

That's rich!

Kathleen supports the UAW?
Subject: Help the Autoworkers?
The average UAW worker gets $73 dollars in total compensation compared to $43 in total compensation paid to the non union autoworkers in the Honda,Toyota,Nissan and other foreign automobile manufactures in the US. BUT WHAT you never see on the main stream media is how much that works out to annually. $73 X 40 hours per week = $2,920 weekly X 52 weeks is $151,840 annually. Now that includes the value of benefits of course but why should the average American who makes $48,000/year or less be asked to support these radically overpaid autoworkers and their political hack friends?

Push away 10 to get 1
This is more or less what Kathleen apparently wants to do. The numbers may not be exact, but ignoring social conservatism is a recipe for losing far more votes than will be gained.

This last election was about the economy. Few voters cared about the issues that Kathleen proposes are hurting the party. If it weren't for those who did care, Obama likely would have won by a far greater margin. Many were organized to vote out of fear of the effect of his presidency rather than excitement about the prospect of a McCain presidency.

The election before this one was about the war. Again the social conservatives were not a drag on the party. For Kathleen's hypothesis to be correct there would need to be evidence that more people are pushed away from the Republican party than are drawn to it by the group she despises. I've seen her offer no evidence to that effect.

The other thing to consider is that one of the most promising ways of making inroads to minority groups is with this issue. As the prop 8 vote in California shows, minority groups as a whole were more likely to vote the social conservative route than were the whites. Throw out that side of the party, and you lose something that could be used to draw such voters to the party.

oogedy boogedy "Whites"?

I live in Detroit, and all the "oogedy boogedy Christians" are Black.

*Evangelical Churches are very diversified.

*Catholic Churches are still all-White.

*Catholics voted for Barack, but are still portrayed as "White-Conservatives" in the MSM?

*Diversified Evangelical Churches voted for McCain, but are still portrayed as "White" in the MSM?

Maybe Christian Conservatives should use the word "Hoax" to describe Kathleen Parker. Maybe Kathleen could do an article on a Diversified Evangelical Church, instead of writing her prejudice against Christian Conservatives. Maybe Kathleen is Pro-Abortion, Anti-Christian, and confused about which Party she belongs to?






Where Kathleen Gets it Right
She is right about using reason to sell the social conservative ideas, at least to a point. The electorate covers a broad spectrum and the best way to convince a voter to support a proposal changes depending on where that voter lies on the spectrum.

For some all that is needed is to show that their religion supports an idea. If this is so they will support it, no further inquiry is required.

For others religion is a starting point, but they won't be willing to "force their religion on others". These voters need a non-religious argument to convince them to support a policy. Religion and reason need to combine for them to support a position.

Other voters won't consider religion at all, but can be convinced to support a position that religious individuals support if they are shown the rational secular benefit of that course of action.

Still other voters (Matthew appears to fall in this category) will ignore the most rational of arguments in support of socially conservative ideas because they are opposed to them with what can be equated to a religious ferver.

Perhaps if the oogedie boogedies are shunned this last group could be drawn into the republican party. This isn't going to be a useful exercise because the group is small compared to the social conservatives and likely leans away from the Republican party on a host of other issues as well.

Basically the first group is persuadable through religion alone. The second is persuadable through a combination of religion and reason. The third is persuadable through reason alone. The fourth is unpersuadable. Find non-religious arguments to reach the second and third group. Punishing or ignoring the oogedie boogedies isn't necessary and is probably harmful.

Bravo!
And again, Bravo.

Ms. Parker is dead on. The message of the insidious and pernicious influence of the religionists into matters of state must be repeated often and well. You are doing both and I thank you.

Here is a supplemental message:

Reason or Faith: The Republican Alternative
John David Lewis | Objective Standard | Winter 08/09
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2008-winter/rep ublican-alternative.asp

"The presidential election of 2008 was more significant than the mere defeat of John McCain; it was a resounding defeat of the Republican party. Conscientious Republicans are now faced with the question: Why?..."

Parker is still here?
Since it's Saturday, I had more time to read the TH punditry. I really tired to read her article but I just couldn't pay attention long enough. It's a rambling rant.

This women needs help and it is wrong that TH continues to exploit her emotional illness by posting these cries for help.

Sorry Cupcake, You Ain't Got It
If you define the cultural impact of conservative Christian values as oogedy-boogedyness, you obviously don't understand enough about conservatives to describe them in print.

I'm sure you do get a lot of supporting mail, mostly from liberals who share your disbelief that character matters and faith is a foundation of character. They would be ecstatic that someone like you despises conservatives as much as they do.

Bottom-line: Go away Cupcake. You are not wanted or needed here.

This guy Hentov
must not be that convincing, because he didn't convince Parker, who apparently admires his logic. Parker is pro-abortion, and her real reason for opposing the Christian element in the party is not because she disagrees with their rhetoric, but because she disagrees with their point of view. She shoulod at least be honest in her columns.

Oh my
It's one thing to explain yourself. It's quite another to do so with the condescension you present here. And then when you say something like this,

"How about social conservatives make their arguments without bringing God into it? By all means, let faith inform one's values, but let reason inform one's public arguments,"
you display your ignorance of history.

How about these gems from some 'oogedy-boogedys ' of the past?

John Adams:
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Attempting to divorce religion from politics and maintain secularism as the basis of governance has led us to the moral morass we find ourselves in now, a people driven by emotion and impression and governed by those cynically pandering to consensus, whichever way the wind is blowing, free from any guiding morality or principle.

Great Point Isaiah!
Couldn't have said it better myself! I am a staunch conservative, but a total non-believer in religion. I am mostly a fiscal/small government sort of conservative, but I'm also all for social consevatism until it's the government telling me how I have to live my life.
I argue against Roe v. Wade based on the fact that there is absolutely no interpretation of the Constitution that allows for that judgement.
I'm against gay marriage, because all honest studies prove that children tend to turn out much better in a traditional mother/father upbringing.
That being said, I still support people in their beliefs. I do not support the decision to put up the atheist sign in the WA state capitol. But, when all a person can tell me in support of their political beliefs is nothing but founded in religion, then that does start sounding a little "oogedy-boogedy" to me, and I feel that they haven't really thought things out the best they can.
The proof of that is right here on TH and all the vitriol a lot of the comments spew toward Kathleen. I definitely don't agree with her on a lot of things, but I definitely would never call for her to be banned from TH. That would be the same as the loony left trying to reinstate the "Fairness Doctrine".

Do you seriously think
that all those people voted for Barack Obama because John McCain was not enough of a social conservative?

I just figured it out!
In spite of staying politically well-informed and reading many columnists on both the "right" and "left", I'd never really heard of or noticed Kathleen Parker till she made news for her Palin decimation. I'm sure that's because, if I did come across one of her articles, it wasn't memorable. In any case, after reading this additional garbage from her ("oooh, I invented words that people are now using, I'm sooooo famous"), I went to Wikipedia and learn that Kathleen Parker lost her mom at an early age then had three stepmothers. Oh, well HELLO? She obviously has issues with women, hence her inability to support Sarah Palin, and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess she had difficulty with the idea of Hillary for President as well. For the record, I'm an independent, spiritual but not religious, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, former Hillary supporter who switched to Palin. So, I'm not even offended by her ridiculous characterization of religious people, just left to shake my head at her cluelessness. Kathleen P. is one of those irksome people who, in addition to her issues with powerful women, clearly didn't get enough attention in childhood and now seeks to gain it in negative ways. But this will be the last time you'll get it from me. Once I read moronic fluff for the third time, I'm out.

Wrong Oogedy, .... Boogedy
This article is wrong on every level. It is not the "religious right" that is creating the perception of a "whites only religious party," it is the Democrats who know that they can energize their secular miscreants by hanging this label on Republicans.

It does the right no good to have authors who profess to be members of the Republican Party confirm the perceptions and message of the left.

You want education and informed opinion to drive Republican votes? Try speaking in support of your party and its principles and stop making excuses for those for whom you feel embarrassment. A little more help and a little less self-flagellation is in order.

Birds of Feather
Ms Parker:

It looks like you have earned the adoration of god-haters and abortionists. I presume this is the demographic with whom who you are trying to align. If not, you are going about making your points in a very odd, clumsy, and insulting fashion.

I mentioned in a previous comment to one of your prior articles that something was not right with you. This is not an insult; it is something quite obvious and carries with it some real concern. Your vindictiveness is masking something else, and until you get that sorted out people will continue to be repulsed by your commentary.

oogedy-boogedy-lest see who...
Kathleen you may seem to think you are making points with this and these columns, but I believe you are highly mistaken. Despite your claims that God or faith are the culprits in the GOP and conservitism's fall from grace I believe you err in a # of ways. First off the election of Obama is less about secular vs. religious leanings and more about fear and worry by people who have come to view entitlement and government control as less risky than the private sector of which they feel corruption is the name of the game. They of course have been hoodwinked. The fact is the subprime mess is nothing but government initiated. The likes of Reid, Pelosi and now a liberal far left president is going to lead to more fake concern and oversight by the same clowns who began this decline. As far as Rick Warren and his influence I remind you that Saddleback was a BOON for McCain. Obama steeps some of his words and phrases in religion. This too shows how you're personal disdain for the deity in the public square more comports to your view. GWB was and is NOT a conservative in many of the areas he has been hammered about. ANd while Iraq is a huge victory, its presentation was a dismal failure. So even where GWB succeeded he did himself no favors and where he failed it was his liberal policies that led the way. God has always been and always will be popular in America.Americans can decipher religious charlatans. If anything the religious charlatans of the left are more pernicious and deceitful and Americans know this. I think if you watch Olbermann and Mahr enough and those of their ilk you would come to these views. Oh by the way Kathleen what are you watching late at night??

"oogedy-boogedy" on immigration
What I consider "oogedy-boogedy" is those Christian "conservatives" who are blatantly selective and hypocritical about what is written in Scripture, and don't practice what they selectively preach. Like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

More recently, the same Christian conservatives who have touted the religious principle that "life begins at conception" to oppose abortion, have rejected the rest of Jesus's message of universal love and compassion when it comes to other issues.

What would Jesus have made of Tom Tancredo, and his nativist calls for expulsion of poor Hispanics who only came to America to find work? In Jesus's time, it was commonplace for people to migrate to whereever they could make a living better.

Would Jesus have said "Throw them back across the border and build a fence to keep them out"?

Would Jesus have said "They're diluting our culture, they'll have more power than we, so let's get rid of them"?

Tom Tancredo and the entire nativist faction within the GOP: The ultimate in modern "oogedy-boogedy."

for Jerseyvet
Jerseyvet claims: "Western civilization is based on Christianity"

The United States Constitution is NOT based on Christianity. Indeed, it goes out of its way to be secular in orientation. The Founding Fathers had just led a successful revolution against an empire with an official church (Anglican), and they did not want to emulate that here on this continent.

If you don't know the philosophical background and philosophical history of the ideas contained in that document, it's the fault of your teachers for not teaching you properly.

Quote to remember...
"Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it untrue."

Thanks, Kathleen, hope you apply this to your own logic. Have a great day :)


Dave

Patriots unite ... there is ...
Still time to sign the WND petition to compel Barack Hussein Obama aka Barry Soetoro to prove that he is a Natural Born Citizen:

Go to this link:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550

The "Oogedy-Boogedy" Response From GA
KP, I suppose that you wrote this stupid column before you got the run-off news from Georgia. It seems that there are "oogedy-boogedies", who don't exactly think that they are blue, dead or hate Sarah Palin.

All I want for Christmas is for you to leave Townhall. What a "Ho! Ho! Ho!" that would be! Oh, if "ho" a bad word, then I'll just say "Good Riddance, Twittering Tw@t"!

for Joisey Cop
Joisey Cop writes: "So when I use the 'Thou shalt not kill' commandment to condemn abortion, I am wrong to base my opinion on scripture"

No.
*BUT*: you are wrong to advocate setting NATIONAL POLICY based on Scripture. And you're doing that, the moment you get into the political arena.

The United States Constitution does NOT give preferential treatment to Christian positions on issues. When the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," it means NO LAW.

The United States Government should not try to set its policies, which affect all Americans of all religions (or none), based on the New Testament. That's both unconstitutional and un-American.

If our Founding Fathers wanted to emulate Britain and define an official state church, they would have done so. They didn't.

If you're going to advocate legislation on the abortion issue, or advocate a position on abortion before the United States Supreme Court, you had better find a way to support your position that is NOT based on Scripture. Because such arguments will fail, as they SHOULD fail.

SteveL: You and all of you Christian ...
haters will one day long for the time when this WAS a Christian nation.

Do you know when that will happen?

When you are living under Sharia Law and your about to get your head sawed off by some Jihadist.

Don't think it could happen here?

Too late you hate-monger it is already happening.

And by bashing Christians and Christianty you are doing the work of the Jihadishts in Amereica.

Don't think there are any Jihadits here in the USA...

Then go to jihadwatch.com and educate yourself you HATE-MONGER!

In the meantime just remember Jesus loves even YOU!

miltm--banning Kathleen
I wanted to comment on the last thing you said. I am sort of torn two ways on the issue. Conflicting viewpoints are useful and helpful for refining one's own viewpoint. If townhall does that which some here seem to advocate by getting rid of any columnist or post that the group doesn't like, it is doing us all a disservice because we lose the opportunity to examine the strengths and weaknesses of opposing views. We lose the opportunity to test our arguments, to strengthen those that work and discard those that fail. For these reasons, it makes sense to have dissenting views. They make us more effective when we seek to persuade.

The other side of the coin though is when opposing views are so abundant that they dillute the views which readers of Townhall seek. Malnutrition is the result when there is too much chaff and too little wheat.

One point further is that it gives the opposition additional ammunition when they can point to "conservatives" who are saying many of the same things they are saying. If a "conservative" sounds too liberal, he (or in this case she) may need to be purged so the other side can't claim conservatives think the same way as they do.

I haven't read enough of Kathleen's posts to form an opinion about her. I would be slow to call for banning her, but if she descends into critism of fellow conservatives to the point where she rarley if ever advances conservative ideas, then she will have strayed from the true purpose of the site and outlived her usefulness.

Sarah Palin WOULD Have Adopted You
I read that you lost your mother at an early age and had 3 stepmothers. I'm sorry about your loss and the turmoil in your early life, but the next time you feel the need to attack Sarah Palin remember she would have adopted you into, what appears (even with Bristol's pregnancy) a loving, stable family.

I guess you are so cold-hearted that you would have ABORTED Trig because he's not "PERFECT".

Patriots unite ... there is ...
Still time to sign the WND petition to compel Barack Hussein Obama aka Barry Soetoro to prove that he is a Natural Born Citizen:

Go to this link:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550

Who's mocking who?
While Kathleen mocks me for being a woman of faith, God mocks those who refuse to accept Reality.

Psalm 2--
"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed [Jesus], saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king [Jesus] upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son [Jesus]; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee [Jesus] the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD [Jesus] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son [Jesus], lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

God has a Son, a Beloved Son, and He has promised that He will not forever tolerate those who mock Jesus, who reject Jesus, who despise Jesus, who ignore Jesus, and who would gladly even now wield the hammer that nailed Him to His cross.

Jesus conquered death, and He is alive forever more. Jesus calls on all people everywhere to repent.

Millions know this; millions know Him. He has had pity on me, and I KNOW HIM.

As Kathleen said, "JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE IT UNTRUE."

Unbelief does not create Reality. Reality is what it is.

KP: You are a HATER!
And you are doing the work of the Jihadists in America who first hate Jews, then Christians, and fianlly everyone else who is NOT Muslim.

You are a good little soldier of Islam in that you are part of the attack on Christianity that is needed by Muslim Jihadists to bring about the downfall of America.

So I ask you - you Christian Hate-monger - do you want to live under Sharia Law?

You are such a useful tool of the left and of the Islam Jihad against America.

I'm sure that the Muslim Brotherhood will give you a gold watch right before they saw your head off for not wearing your Burka to the office on Monday.

SteveL
Do you understand what you are writing? You are essentially saying that an atheist can make a law he wants to based on his morality since that law isn't rooted in a "religion", but a Christian cannot do the same.

At the very least the Christian has a higher standard to meet before his law can be passed. He has to show that there is a non-religious reason for the law. The reason behind the atheist law obviously isn't "religious" so he more or less gets a free pass, or at the least isn't subject to the same level of scrutiny.

The simple expression of this reasoning is that laws passed based on atheistic morality are more legitimate than those based on religious morality. In other words our nation prefers the morality of the atheist to that of the religious.

Since the majority of the nation does not prefer atheist morality over Christian morality, the will of the people must be thwarted through the machinations of government. So a school teacher can teach her young students that homosexuality is acceptable, normal and good (atheistic morality), but not that it is wrong (that would be establishing religion). We have come to the point where atheist, secular (pick your label) morality is established by our government.

If you think this is what was intended by the founders, you are ignoring the quotes that are offered by Red Stater. Those who seek to purge our government of any hint of religious motivation behind its laws and practices have an overly simplistic view of the interaction between the church and the state.

SteveL: America will either be ...
A Chrisatian nation or it will BECOME a Muslim nation.

Idiots like you who think that America will become an Atheist nation are fools.

If you and your ateist friends think that you can create an Athesit utopia in America, you are wrong.

The Jihadists are already here and they eat Athesits like you for breakfast.

So if you want to live under Sharia law, just keep up your attacks on Christianity.

You will have a lot more to worry about than Christmas trees in front of your townhall.

STEVEL ... You are a usefull idiot for the Jihadists in America.

SteveL- Go Read!
The Bill of Rights where it confers the right to LIFE, Liberty and the PURSUIT (not guaranteed) of Happiness.

You wrote: "The United States Constitution does NOT give preferential treatment to Christian positions on issues. When the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," it means NO LAW."

You are right, sort of. The law is based on the Founding Documents, but you, evidently, think that LIFE should only be a right if mothers decide to give it. So, screw the unplanned or not "PERFECT" children! The co-signors of our documents did not impose religion on the nation, but they sure avoided granting abortion rights and even Pro-Choice afficianados grant that Roe v. Wade was poorly written.

You don't have to be an "oogedy-boogedy" Christian to recognize that abortion is wrong. My Jewish inlaws believe that abortion should be banned, as do many of my "secular" friends.

Further, as to the Establishment Clause, it was meant not to have a State religion. It did not prohibit religion or the right of Citizens to think and vote based on their personal religion.

What was the question again?
I wasn't lost but I am now. This is more disjointed than a story from a three year old.

KP, thanks for explaining why ...
... you have such goofy ideas. As a "reformed" evangelical (reformed by the Washington culture), it is clear that you have no clue to the difference between a person's values and their religious beliefs.

That's understandable, since Washington's values are largely humanistic and are not based on authentic religious beliefs. It is easy to see why you regard values based on faith as "oogedy-boogedy", as opposed to values based on humanistic concepts.

Oh, and by the way, the next time you see Pastor Marlette, say hello for me. He is a funny cartoonist, and the best example I know of a humanist poking fun at faith based institutions.

atheism
Atheism is not a religion because there are no supernatural beliefs in atheism.

There are no hosts of invisible and intangible beings in atheism, agnosticism, and humanism.


SteveL - Immigration LAWS
You wrote: Subject: "oogedy-boogedy" on immigration
What I consider "oogedy-boogedy" is those Christian "conservatives" who are blatantly selective and hypocritical about what is written in Scripture, and don't practice what they selectively preach.

*********************
You write that we should be a nation of laws and not one based on religion; yet, you go on to talk about Christian virtues relative to immigration. Well, Steve, immigration laws are NOT based on religion. So, what is it going to be? "Law" when you choose or "religious-based" thinking when you want to use it?

Illegal immigrants are illegal by LAW, not because of religion.

Call KP up for lunch. I'm sure that you two atheists would have a lot of useless banter to exchange.

Backpeddle Much?
Gee, I guess that insulting core conservatives didn't work out so well now, did it?

Perhaps you remember the Dixie Chicks, who made the similar mistake of sneering at their primary audience?

The left-liberals will probably keep paying you to pretend to be conservative on their behalf, but now that you've let what you actually think about people of faith and others who think that principles matter more than party numbers you're not going to get the conservative base back.

Valerie
Sadly, we must also remember Mark 4:9-12

And he said unto them, "He that has ears to hear, let him hear." And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I thank the Lord my Father, Jesus Christ, for my hunger and newfound gratitude. Without those two things, one can never find salvation.

Pray for the lost, and be patient, they really don't know what they do.

Parker's almost got it
As more non evangelical fundamentalists look at your Non-Christian faith, your Satanic goose is cooked.

You EFs are not Christians. A Christian is an individual who follows the teachings of Christ and believes in Christ. You believe in the Primacy of the Bible FIRST and then Jesus. You have managed to fool most of the population for a long time by calling yourselves Christians, but as your vicious bigotry is examined and the roots of your faith see the light of reason, you are history.

SteveL
"Would Jesus have said "Throw them back across the border and build a fence to keep them out"?"

Probably. After all, consider this:

"If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea." -- Jesus, said in Matthew 18:6

Or this:

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" -- Jesus, said in Matthew 13: 41-42

"So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" -- Jesus, said in Matthew 13: 49-50

Jesus, contrary to popular opinion in the Northern U.S., is not a happy-go-lucky guy. He's judgmental (calls the pharisees sons of vipers, not to mention overturns tables outside the temple), sometimes even in a peculiar manner (at one point he curses a fig tree for being wicked).

SteveL: How come you Atheists...
never attack Islamic encroachments into our society?

Why do you never complain that there are Islamic prayer rooms in public schools throughout America - paid for with tax payer dollars to "accomadate" Muslims?

And schools all over America are offering classes in Islam "appreciation" and teaching the five pilars of Islamic faith - in public schools - with tax payer dollars...

Why do you not take a stand against Islam?

Why?

Because you Atheists are cowards.

But when the local Muslim recruiter arrives at your door one day with a sword in one hand and the Koran in the other ...

you'll be the first to sign on the dotted line and become a Muslim...

because you are cowards...

Enough with this Parker nonsense!
This is ridicolous! This woman Parker is making fun of everybody and is getting a free pass. In a world where Muslims terrorists are killing infidels in Middle East, Asia, and Europe according to the dictates of their founder Mohammed; a global economical crisis are putting millions of people in the way of extermination; more than 500 million people are living in extreme poverty; 150 million children die of hunger around the world; a crisis of identity and moral values is sweeping America while at the same time has been more than 40 million aborted babies since 1973 in America alone; and sodomite-fascists intimidate people of faith when they exercise their constitutional rights, here comes this woman, Parker, taking space in Townhall to spew another vitriolic attack on Evangelical Christians as though there is not any serious issue to talk about.

The most intriguing question is why Townhall still continue posting her columns.

Let’s be clear, this woman Kathleen Parker is a woman with a delusional disorder also known as paranoid disorder. This is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue.

Kathleen believes that the worst person in human history is Sarah Palin and that Evangelicals are the most dangerous people on earth. This is a serious issue folks! People with delusional disorder experience bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, etc. Kathleen Parker is an irritable and angry woman. She is so paranoid that she sees Sarah Palin while she using the toilet or evangelicals while she is taking a shower. Enough is Enough!



Atheism, Religion, Establishment
A child going to a public school can be taught that there is no god, that religion is dangerous and harmful, that homosexual behavior, abortion, premarital sex and the like are not wrong and in fact good, and various other things to which religious parents would object. These teachings work to tear down the beliefs of the parents. Parents who oppose these teachings are forced to support them with taxes for the schools. The parent may choose to pull the child from the school, but to do so requires additional expenditures of time and money. (One day even this option may be removed. It already is unavailable to parents without the free time or money to pursue non-public eductation). The atheists beliefs, morals and values are supported and subsidized by the state.

If a public school were to teach that there is a god, that various sexual practices are immoral, that religion brings more good than bad to the world, law suits would quickly force an end to this. Such teachings are impermissible even if virtually everyone wants them. The atheist can't be forced to subsidize these religious teachings.

Only willful ignorance can blind one to the imbalance of these two situations. Only a tortured understanding of our nation's history can conclude that we are supposed to not just be silent about religion, but may actively seek to destroy the budding religious beliefs of the young, and that parents should be forced to pay for teachings that attack religion.

How have we have come to a point, where the morals of the religious are illigitimate while the morals of the irreligious are the only legimate motives behind the passage of laws?

Palin derangement syndrome . . .
Parker is one of those nuts who thinks Palin didn't really give birth to her kid. What an absolute loser of a pundit. Sink her.

KP - Change Christian For Muslim
Writing such a diatribe against "religious" Republicans only serves to forget that a lot of Republicans are not hotly religious. Although I am a Christian, I have not been to church in many years even though I read the Bible daily. Does Christianity play a role in my thinking? Of course. For instance, I believe in "Thou Shall Not Kill". This applies not only to abortion, but the death penalty as well. While Christianity plays a role in my thinking so does the law, which this attorney practices every day.

If you exchaned "Christian" for "Muslim", you would either be charged with a hate crime or find yourself like Theo Van Gogh. Of course, the decapitated Theo still has more intelligence than you do.

Stop disparaging a certain group because you might not like your "choosen" group when it comes to power, God forbid.

Michael #80
What is your point?

Suppose an atheist supports a particular law and a Christian opposes it. Perhaps both have put a significant amount of thought into why they have taken their position, but perhaps not. Perhaps they simply take their position because their beliefs, morality and values push them toward their respective positions.

If we look at what is behind those beliefs it can be summed up fairly simply in each case. The atheist says "I take my positition because this is what I believe is right." The Christian says "I take my position because this is what I believe is right." The motives are the same.

We could look further and learn that the Christian's beliefs ultimately flow from deference to a being perceived as superior his own being. The atheist on the other hand finds no being morally superior to himself. What he views as right is right.

Don't we all have the right to attempt to shape the government in accordance with that which we view as right and moral? Or is that right only reserved for those who don't believe in God?

Well done, Isaiah.
Quite right.

KP
You have hit the TH wack-a-doodle crowd right in their oogedy-boogedy soft spot. The Republican Party has a major problem with these oogedy-boogedy wack-a-doodles. The party architects depend on this group to propagate the fear and hate which had worked so well for so long. You, and others, are bringing to light what has been somewhat hidden from view for a long time. The screeching, hissing feedback you are receiving confirms their trepidation and horror of a new reality: Change. The heavy rock of ignorance lifted allowing the light of truth to shine on the venomous snake of deceit.

Please continue.

Theresa, CT - One Change
Theresa
Location: CT
Reply # 53
Date: Dec 6, 2008 - 8:29 AM EST Subject: PLEASE stop...
Posting Parker's articles here. She belongs on Huffpo.

She should go to work at the PuffHos; otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

KP: Can you say Christianaphobe?
You actually think you are clever for coming up with a word like ...oogedy-boogedy?

Wow! You made a funny!

Too bad it was at the expense of people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Well I have a word for you ...

Christianaphobe...

I don't think it needs explaining but it describes you to a "T"

You are a hate-mongering Christianaphobe!

And please don't write an article next week entitled:

"Some of my best friends are Christians" (or something equally patronizing).

I can tell you this though, it really doesn't matter what Christians - here on Earth - think of your vicious attack on Jesus Christ - becuase whether you know it or not - you are attacking the man and God known as Jesus Christ..

but your "oogedy-boogedy" attacks against Jesus Christ WILL matter the second you die and you have to face the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - because at that moment you will be judged by God for your ..

quaint little "oogedy-boogedy" word..

There is a good chance that you may wish at that moment you had not created the word ...

oogedy-boogedy...

Of course, like all of us siners, you can repent now, the sooner the better in fact, and ask God to forgive you for hating His Son Jesus Chtist.

Time is short though KP because no one knows the moment when he or she will die.

Not even oogedy-boogedy-haters like you.

nomo: You are a hater ...
and a Christianaphobe.


the problem with Godless metaphysics
"There are many republicans (and would-be republicans) like me, who believe that conservative social mores (pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-family, mind-your-own-business, don't tattle on your neighbors, Golden Rule, etc.) are important for a healthy society, and worthy of rigorous defense, but don't like their noses rubbed in religion, in which we place little faith."

OK, then YOU (or Kathleen Parker) be the first to come up with a metaphysical system that supports conservative social mores that's NOT based on the existence of a moral God.

I doubt you can. Brilliant thinkers have wrestled with this question for hundreds of years. Yet so far not one has come up with a persuasive atheistic / agnostic metaphysics capable of inspiring billions of people to strive to live moral lives. Maybe it's impossible.

On the other hand, numerous atheistic thinkers HAVE come up with persuasive metaphysical systems based on atheism that have successfully inspired millions to commit the largest mass murders and most controlling totalitarian dictatorships in human history.

This is exactly the historical weakness of Godless metaphysics to date.

Therefore, a little more tolerance for God-inspired folk would be appreciated from you, your would-be republican friends, and Kathleen Parker. Lord knows that our Founders, while wisely refusing to establish an official state religion, also wisely understood that widespread belief in a moral God was essential to sustaining democracy and civil society. Too many Americans have forgotten this vital lesson.

Religious Law Making and Voting
It is interesting. We can pass laws which most evidence indicates will create problems. Voters can be comletely ignorant of the policies of the candidate they support. Voters can be ignorant of the effects of the policies they support. This is all fine and no one protests. We even encourage ignorant voters to vote.

But, when a voter is informed by his conscious and religious beliefs rather than ignorance, suddenly their is a huge problem. Vote for bad ideas through ignorance, fine. Vote for good ideas with the wrong motive (religion rather than "reason"), and suddenly there is a problem.

Bad ideas are fine. They can be long-lived in our society and government. We can cling to them when all evidence shows how flawed they are. We can push policy out of ignorance and irrationality provided religious beliefs had no part in the formation of that policy. Once religious beliefs enter the picture, suddenly their is a very high hurdle which must be overcome before that policy can be legitimate.

Stoic Patriot #51 & #53
Well said. While we differ on our belief in
God, I can respect you and your thoughtful opinion because unlike most that claim atheism, you seem not to carry anger or hatred towards God and those of us who know and believe in Him. Thank you for your thoughtful post, would that all who say (and I use the term loosely)
were like you. I think those that are the most hatefilled regarding Christianity, aren't so much true atheists as God haters. They are angry with God for whatever reason (and I have had a season of anger with Him myself, but I never lost my faith, repented and am forgiven) and vent their anger at the closest targets, Christians, so it's not so much unbelief as belief. They do believe even if they won't admit it to themselves, otherwise why be angry about SomeOne you deny exists?

Parker should be the Idol
for the Stupid Party. Listen to her advice, elephants. Get rid of your base. It worked in 2006 and 2008, didn't it?

Matthew- Save a tree?
You wrote:
"The radical christians are dragging all of us through the mud.

Their views are extreme and they are dangerous. They have to be challenged in the market place of ideas."

Matthew, what I consider extreme and dangerous are:

Saving a tree and killing an unborn child.

Torching University Science Labs to save a rat instead of discovering cures to save people.

Protesting for saving whales when children in public schools that are failing.

Giving the poor a few fish instead of teaching them to fish for life.

Sending hundreds of millions of dollars to countries for oil when environmentalists want to prevent the usage of our own natural resources, which are critical because alternatives will not be widely available and cost-effective for a long time.

Blaming America for every murderous act that Islamofascists commit.

Believing that Government is the answer to every problem and people don't have to take responsibility for their own lives.


Michael
Quote:

"Atheism is not a religion because there are no supernatural beliefs in atheism.

There are no hosts of invisible and intangible beings in atheism, agnosticism, and humanism."

One working definition of religion is an unwavering belief in anything that cannot be proven. Another is this, from an actual dictionary:

"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

This describes all the atheists I know to a tee. And in any event, since religion can neither be proven nor disproved and neither can atheism, both propositions are taken on faith. No one can be 100% certain there is in fact no God. Ironically, to make that claim you are basing your assertion on faith alone and in so doing claiming the supernatural ability of omniscience, usually reserved only for...well, you know Who!

Hey KP and all you ...
Christianaphobes ...

aka oogedy-boogedy haters...

and Atheists ....

Read this article from Mark Steyn ...

if you dare ....

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/mumbai-muslims-time-2248 410-jews-muslim#

Junk
To use terms from Obama, it appears Ms. Parker has no new ideas, she is bankrupt. This really wasn't worth the time it took to read it, let alone write it.

Atheists and religion: I saw a comment that atheism isn't a religion any more than bald is a hair color.

What about FISCAL Conservatives, KP?
You write that the Religious Right is ruining the GOP and, basically, running the GOP.

Excuse me? I didn't think that John McCain ran as a Christian or Conservative. Perhaps, had he acted more like one, he may have won. A lot of people stayed home because McCain has acted more like a Democrat than a Republican.

I know that you consider yourself a genius when it comes to Conservatives, but you would not recognize me if you ran into me while wearing one of my Chanel suits on one of my many, many trips to NYC and DC.

If the "Religious Right" is running the GOP, I surely have not received the memo.

BTW, I looked up "brain dead" and your photograph was there as an example.

Faux-Conservatives & RINOs
I will try to refrain from ad hominum attacks, though I am sorely tempted. Madame, you are an arrogant a** and an intellictual coward. We religious conservatives are the very foundation of this party. It is the overeducated psuedointellictuals like you, more worried about being liked and invite to the right cocktail parties that have damaged the GOP. The press will never like us. NEVER. N-E-V-E-R. Accept it and move on. They may respect us if we fight to win as they do. But we lose even that modium of meaning when we capitulate to those who are wrong. Flat out WRONG. If you are so embarassed by we religious rubes then leave. The dumb-ocrat party will welcome you. And good riddance!

Moral suspension
Redstater from ID at 10:49 - excellent post.

I am less bothered by the ignorant faithful in the Republican party (whom Parker is referring to with her condescending reference to "oogedy boogedy"), than by the "educated" faithful whose religion is a devout belief in ever-growing government peopled by the politically ambitious, removed from any source of morality other than the quest to be the ones in positions of power over others. These people who promise they can solve all our problems are engaging in a whole lot more magical thinking than the southern baptists. Perhaps when you refer to them, you can use the words of Cinderella's fairy godmother, "Bippity, boppity, boo!" Alternatively, you can just keep repeating "hope" and "change."

When you attempt to appease these fellow elites by suggesting that our beliefs should be removed from public discussion, you endanger us all. Your moral suspensions license them to honor no restraints on their ambitions.

If our reason is "informed" by our beliefs, than our religion is the foundation for reasoned discourse. Are we to go mute whenever an argument takes us to the source of our position, a belief in the natural rights of man?


This is a vastly interdependent, quickly changing world where policies too often seem primarily determined by commerce, expediency and appeasement of those who value tolerance more than they understand or appreciate the rational, moral basis of our defining principles and the opposing forces that seek to undermine them. People like Ms. Parker underestimate the enemies of freedom who know and rely upon that miscalculation in gaining a foothold in international debate. Those enemies love the moral relativist (or in this case, "suspensionist") because she paves the way for them by making people who are not attentive less careful about things that are important.



Jesus said...
if they hated me ... they will hate you...

I just never thought as I grew up in what used to be called the United States of America that

they would hate Christ here in America...

not this openly... not as blatantly as KP has done ...

KP and many of the posters to this article are the very people that Jeusus warned us about...

"if they hated me ... they will hate you".

It is just shocking to see how hated Christians have become in this nation that was founded on Christian principles and the Holy Bible.

Meanwhile American-hating Jihadists are taking over our local, state, and federal governemnts... they own our political officials at all levels of governement..

Public schools teach respct for Islam .. but brow-beat Chritian students into silent submission...

It is time for Christians to fight back... time for Christians to fight back...

Cowards and hypocrites!
How come you Atheists never attack Islamic encroachments into our society?

Why do you never complain that there are Islamic prayer rooms in public schools throughout America - paid for with tax-payer dollars to "accomadate" Muslims?

Schools all over America are offering classes in Islam "appreciation" and teaching the five pilars of Islamic faith - in public schools - with tax payer dollars... and you are silent.

Why do Atheists never take a stand against Islam?

Why?

Because Atheists are cowards and hypocrites. (Including you KP)

You say you want separation of Church and state but ONLY attack Christianity meanwhile Islam is taking over your neighborhood, and your state, local, and federal governemnts. And you are too stupid to know it!

You attack Christmas trees but stand silent while Muslim women wear burkas in America and demand to have their goverment-regulated drivers liecense photo taken while wearing a burka over their face.

But watch when the local Muslim recruiter arrives at your Athesist home and knocks on your Atheist door with a sword in one hand and the Koran in the other ...

You gutless Atheists will be the first to sign on the dotted line and convert to Islam...

because you are cowards, hypocrites ... and

useful idiots for the Islamic Jihadists who wish to overthrow the USA.

Please visit Jihadwatch.com and learn how your biggest threat is not an innocent Christmas tree in your townhall, but Islam in America.

What a bunch of dolts you Athesists are!

And that includes you KP.

Note to Atheists:

I have an advantage over you when it comes to objectively looking at Christianity. I attended my share of Sunday School classes as a child. I did not blindly believe everything I was taught, and I did consider where the boundaries were between religious presumption and hard truth. As a child I leaned strongly toward belief in God, but I needed proof beyond the confidence and faith of others. Eventually after hitting many brick walls when it came to reaching out towards God, as a young man I became an uncompromising atheist. I then became quite bitter about the hoax perpetrated on me concerning this Being called God. I was militant in my atheism for just over 12 years, fully convinced beyond any doubt that there was no God.

Then, without warning and when I was at the top of my life with no recognized need, God entered my life. Denying His reality would have been no different than denying the existence of energy and matter. My life changed overnight as all I could do was to be obedient to the truth revealed in the Bible.

So, I know all the arguments on both sides of the equation. I know the desperate conclusion of believing that there is no God. I lived continuously with a set of scales in the back of my mind—as soon as the bad outweighed the good sufficiently I was going to take my own life. What’s the sense otherwise? If the sum total of your existence is a paltry 80 years on this troublesome earth, I cannot for the life of me see the sense of taking your next breath. On the other hand, if God is real, then there are answers and reasons. I for one know longer have to wonder “if” He is real. My faith cannot be your faith though, and until He turns on a light for you you will not be able to comprehend spiritual truth. Your responsibility is always though to try, the evidence of creation itself alone holds you accountable to Him.

I am not a religious person
yet I agree with evangelical Christians on most issues.

I was raised Catholic and am grateful to evangelical Christians and Mormons for standing on principle and voting their values.

I'm also a big fan of Nat Hentoff.

Basically I don't care how you form your opinions/beliefs just that you are right.

I vote Republican because of the social conservatives -- without them I'd vote third party or not at all.

What about Oogedy-Boogedy Obamaites?
KP, you dismiss the Religious Right because of their belief in Christ, but what about those "Oogedy-Boogedy" voters that elected Obama because they think he is some sort of Messiah. You know the type like Peggy-the-Moocher, who actually believes that Obama will pay her mortgage and ObamaGas will fill her gas tank.

If you doubt "The Messiah" lable, then listen to Farrakhan or read Oliver North's column about the day all cars on I-95 were told to pull over to the shoulder because Obama's motorcade was on its way. Hundreds of people were screaming "Obama is coming, The Messiah is coming"!

It seems to me that there are a lot of oogedy-boogedies on both sides of the aisle. The difference is that Religious Conservatives believe in Christ and the others believe in The Messiah Obama.

When are you going to insult them?

' Kaye Parka '


" I'm Kaye Parka and you're oogy boogy.

All religions other than mine, are oogy boogy.

I'm made of rubber,
you're made of glue,
nanner, nanner, nanner,
sticks on you!

If Repubs are ever to win again, they must become atheists, and call themselves Dems. "
*** [ Paraphrased, but accurate, I believe. ]

~~~

Sorry 'Miss' Parka, I call you 'Miss' because you will never be a 'Hit'.

Everything you have written in the last few Months is diametrically opposed, (That is 180 degrees opposite) to common sense and reality.

Have you considered psychiatric help, or are you just brain dead. I do not know your problem, but you might also consider AA.

If you rigorously read the comments from your last few columns, you will note that you are on the wrong site. Please move to 'Huffy' or 'Movin' on down 'dat road'.

You will be very popular there. Here, YOU STINK !


If the BEST I could consistently pull on several 'clums' ( I can't call them Columns) is 1 checkmark with over a 100 comments, I would die of mortification, hang my head in shame, and look for other work.

Hint, Hint. Finally, you may want to have your Md. check for electrolyte and sugar levels, as imbalances can mimic symptoms of insanity.


The Cheerful, but Observant, Geriatric Rodent. Ret.


GOD or Obama
KP.."everyone" worships something. PICK ONE

1.)Many Republicans worship the "ONE" true GOD
2.)Many Democrats worship the "god" Obama.

The ugly face of anti-christian bigotry
is being shown, and it's in the column's headshot.

USPatriot- "The Last Legal Punching Bag"
You wrote, among other things:

I just never thought as I grew up in what used to be called the United States of America that they would hate Christ here in America...

not this openly... not as blatantly as KP has done ..."

Unfortunately, Mormons and Christians, especially if they are overweight and standing in the "All You Can Eat" line, are "fair game" and legal punching bags. Just try making a joke about Muslims or homosexuals... Before you know it, you will be charged with a hate crime ASAP.

It is a stain on this country and one that we are and will be suffering from for a long time. Just have faith. When Judgment Day comes, you will have no 'splaining to do.


Condescending
Ms. Parker, are you this condescending to everyone you disagree with, or only to Christians?

You want "reason" to inform our public arguments, instead of faith. Here you show an extremely deficient understanding of how one's presuppositions affect one's worldviews and therefore one's arguments. A devout Christian can no more leave God out of his arguments than a fish can swim without water. There is no such thing as neutrality. Jesus said he who is not for me is against me.

Say what you really mean
I used to enjoy some of Kathleen Parker's columns, but no more. She is expressing disdain for my beliefs by using the term "oogedy-boogedy." If she agreed with my beliefs or even respected them, she wouldn't use the term. She could have disagreed with out being dismissive or disrespectful.

The simple fact is that the Republicans lost this election because they had become enamored with govt. regulation and spending like drunken Democrats. Conservatives had no where to go.

Perhaps I should begin using "oogedy-boogedy" to describe global warming alarmists, socialists, feminists.....


HERE WE GO AGAIN
CIA PLOT AGAINST BILL RICHARDSON?
William Ayers to be nominated for head of the Department of Transportation?
Read it at, http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com


Thank Ms. Parker
I didn't know the term for the repugs predictment, but sounds good to me. It always amazes me that when the repugs come into office, they take it as a license to tell everyone what to believe, what to do, lie like dogs in the summer and spend everyone's money like it was their own. The term "charge it" comes to mind and boy, did Dubya overuse the term and now we Dems will have to clean up the mess and try and start over again. Maybe we can now have 8 years of not so much hypocritosy and find a way to get out of that uncalled for war and away from the unchristian practice of torture.

KP- Conservatives are reasonable.
Dear God, KP!
(I know that probably sent you into convulsions, but you are like a human pinata and so much fun to hit)

Anyway, do you really believe that atheists are the only reasonable people? What an insane belief!

After two undergraduate degrees, a MBA and a Juris Doctorate, my professors would be SHOCKED to realize that they gave all "A's" to me, an unreasonable Conservative Republican. And, KP, these were Ivy League professors.

The only person that I would consider unreasonable in your argument is yourself. The more you write, the more unreasonable and stupid you appear.

WAKE UP TOWN HALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know what this woman is doing on Town Hall. She belongs on Daily KOS or Huffington Post. Get rid of her. She is a liberal lunatic.

What you really mean
Ms. Parker, you want conservatives to be more like lying liberals.


The woman won't leave
WOW...Parker is still here ???

KP- I DARE YOU...
to write an article about the "oogedy-boogedy" Islamofascists that have no problem in killing innocent men, women and children of all faiths, including fellow Muslims.

Once I read it, I might start thinking that you are reasonable and not bigoted.

Alice
Alice in GA - Speaking of ignorance from the south...

Democrats cleaning up excessive government spending, now that is an "oogedy boogedy" belief if I have ever heard one. They are MASTERS at creating programs that widen and entrench the pipelines running out of Washington, D.C. in such a way that the faucets can never be turned off. Think not? Why do you think no one can summon the political will to restrict social security only to its initial intended recipients? Or to reduce it or ration it to levels consistent with current funding? Once you turn a spending switch on in Washington, the switch is stuck on.

What voodoo do you imagine the federal government practices when they convince citizens that they can take their hard-earned money all the way to Washington, skim something off the top for themselves and then give in return something more than those people can provide for themselves right at home in their own communities? Well, keep on eye on Daschle and the universal healthcare crowd, because exactly that kind of voodoo is on the way.

Democrats, the real "oogedy boogedy" crowd.

Worse The The Plague
What will it take to make this witch disappear? Magic? This has got to be the silliest article yet.

She has joined the liberal Christian Bashers. She does not belong here as we have said many times. Must we take a poll?

Alice in GA- Talk About Dumb
If "repugs" are so dumb, why is Bush's approval ratings higher than that of Congress?

Drink some more Kook-Aid because it is the only way you can continue to possibly believe that the Democratically-controlled Congress will clean up the "mess", which started with the CRA (another Democrat nightmare child).

As for intelligence, I will put my Brown University and Oxford-educated Governor, Bobby Jindal, up against any Democrat any day, especially The Messiah, Dingy "Smelly Tourists" Harry, Barney Frankfurter, and Botox Queen Pelosi. And, don't even bother sending Al Frankenstein as that would be a REAL comedy.

GOD said So isn't an Argument
Ms. Parker GREAT JOB!!!!

Conservatives doth protest too much
All these visceral Conservative responses must mean
You’re saying something Right
(and I mean that in both senses of the word)

"oogedy-boogedy"
I’d say is the
God said so Argument
"oogedy-boogedy"
Is what you say
When you haven’t thought something through

Both Conservatives and Liberals
Have fallen into follower mentality
Letting other people do the thinking for them
Yes and I’m including God in that
But you can follow God
And continue to have reason on your side

I’m sure any good Christian can tell me
Why they love God
Personal testimonies are reasoned arguments
Your reason for your faith

The problem is that when conservatives
Begin discussing their political faith
They are not quoting God
They’re quoting someone else’s interpretation of God
Usually spun and twisted beyond its original meaning
In order to satisfy a political end

So when conservatives are cornered
And asked to explain their personal reasons why
They can’t
All they can say is
Because God said so
"oogedy-boogedy

more of the same
I guess so much for diversity of opinion in the Republican Party.

Though truth to be told there is diversity in the Republican Party.

The regular posters here at Townhall would have us all believe that Repubs and conservatives are in lock step with their radical religious idealogies.

The truth is that opinions like Kathleen Parker's do exist in our party. There are diversity in our party even though the term "diversity" scares the rabid social conservatives into a frenzy.

So many of you are so intolerant of any opinion that even suggests the calling into question of your radical religious fundamentalism.

So many of you have married the concept of christianity with Conservative Republicanism and more importantly social conservatism.

You forget the diversity of our own party. You forget about small government and fiscal responsibility. You forget that the government should not impose morality or a religion on its people as that is a threat to freedom. You forget that the government should have a lesser presence in our lives instead of telling us who we can marry, etc.

You the social conservatives have went back on our values as a conservative movement and you have poisoned our party.

Good job there oogedy boogedies..

Diane
You are just too cute with your outrageous indignation. Prior to Dubya stealing the Presidency with the blessing of the supremes, he came into a fiscal surplus of trillions dollars! We had 8 years of relative peace and prosperity with Clinton. The budget was under control and so was the spending. . .8 years after Clinton leaves office, we have bankruptcy levels of debt, an almost never ending war, a recession that threatens to go depression, repugs screaming socialism at every turn, unemployment rates we haven't seen in 30-50 years and you want me to get upset over the term oogey bogogey? Well you are sadly mistaken.

I like the Social Security Program - I have been paying into the program since I was 14 years old with my first job; I will have paid into the program 53 years when I retire at 67 - keep your grubby hands off my old age security.
Every pension plan with every employer has been rolled over or encorporated and the npv sent to me to manage myself - no private pension for me; you repugs have seen to that!

I work in healthcare and have since 1975 - lots of changes; some not so good and others, very good. I think everyone should have healthcare we can afford it; no one, including you, should become disabled or die from something treatable, but payrolls have to be met, supplies have to be bought, etc. So who pays; in the end, we all pay one way or another. I want my Medicare - keep your grubby hands off the program that will help me see a doctor, if and when I need one. I have paid into the program since its inception.

I want people to have jobs with benefits - not just the wealthy, who can afford services, out of pocket. I didn't like the bailout of the finance industry-they caused this mess, but attacking the auto industry for failing to forsee the credit freeze is stupid, even for repugs. Oogey boogey, you betch ya, as your idol and fellow, not so bright, has said, Governor Palin. Keep on, your outrage is entertaining.

Kathleen Parker is right
Kathleen is right. The radical Christianists not only give the Republican Party a bad name but they give us loving (and sane) Christians a bad name too.

Its up to liberal and moderate Christians to stand up to the fundamentalist Christianists or the Christo-fascists as some call them.


Reason and God
So apparently, Ms Parker has fallen for the mistaken idea that God is "unreasonable" -- if to bring him into a discussion is to exclude reason.
When speaknig about things moral, one must ask "why" about any position. We can say, it is not right to kill people, but you have to ask "why not?" Naturalists, atheists really cannot hae a reasonable answer. If we come from nothing and go to nothing, then any "meaning" in between these poles of meaninglessness is fantasy and ultimately "unreasonable" in the extreme.

KP
You have hit the TH wack-a-doodle crowd right in their oogedy-boogedy soft spot. The Republican Party has a major problem with these oogedy-boogedy wack-a-doodles. The party architects depend on this group to propagate the fear and hate which had worked so well for so long. You, and others, are bringing to light what has been somewhat hidden from view for a long time. The screeching, hissing feedback you are receiving confirms their trepidation and horror of a new reality: Change. The heavy rock of ignorance lifted allowing the light of truth to shine on the venomous snake of deceit.

Please continue.

Michael: What exactly
do you Liberal and Moderate Christians believe?

Is abortion right or wrong, for example?

Or is the answer to that question above your paygrade?

Our Holy Father
Our Holy Father emphasizes over and over in his writings and homilies that Reason, for Catholics, is paramount.

Benedict's mentor from his early days to now has been Saint Augustine, a thinker who epitomizes the symbiotic relation between Reason and Faith.

The Ten Commandments, arguably, are based on natural reason and common sense. They are stronger with Faith, of course, but Natural Law as it comes to us from Saint Paul and Saint Thomas Aquinas...natural law as human conscience relies heavily upon reason, albeit in the context of an embodied, historical and very human, being. Indeed, I recall and essay in the Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, I believe, in which the great Leo Strauss points up the roots of natural law as obtaining in Stoic Philosophy. The standard, for Marcus Aurelius, was unaided human reason. Or, better, the intellect informed, again, by what we today would call "history" or experience or common sense: traditions of decency and gentlemanship. There are certain things, like homosexual acting out, that a decent person simply does not do.

nomo: You are a ...
Christianaphobe.

Michael: What exactly ...
is a "radical Christian"?

Have you heard of any Christians cutting off anyone's head in the name of Jesus lately?

You have no idea what a radical is ... and guess what?

Obama, your idol isn't a radical either...

surprise ... surprise ...

Robert Gates is still Secreatary of War.

Hah! Hah!

O***** Bo****** Blues
That term is so embarrassing - I can't even repeat it. You guys take yourselves too seriously. Are you friends with Marge from Brooklyn??? errr I mean Peggy Noonan. I like the way she says SH*T with her high brow accent. Keep up the entertainment!!! Remember, we are not laughing with you...

KP: Who took your photo...
for this blog.

That smiling glance over your left shoulder in the dim, red, hazy light makes you look like ...

Jack Nicholson in The Shining ...

only a little bit more deranged than Jack!

Are you by any chance typing ...

All work and no play makes KP a dull and boring columnist?

Alice
Your understanding of the economy over the past 20 or so years is rather flawed. By the time Clinton took office we were on our way out of a brief recession. He and the democrats had control for a mere two years during which time the budget was not balanced, nor spending held in check.

In 1994 Republicans gained control of both houses for the first time in years. They ran promising to balance the budget and exercise fiscal restraint. They fought with Clinton in an effort to get this done, but the budget was eventually balanced. Clinton was dragged into a balanced budget, he wasn't the one who sought it.

By the time Clinton left office the country had experienced eight years of economic growth which started before he took office, but internet bubble was set to burst. A recession was underway when Bush took over which was accelerated by the 9/11 attacks shortly after he took office. His tax cuts promoted economic growth making the inherited recession one of the briefest of recessions and six or so years of economic growth commenced.

In 2007 Democrats for the first time since 1994 gained control of both houses of congress. The economic growth of the previous six years stalled and the current recession began a little more than a year after the democrats gained control of both houses.

Alice
It is too simplistic to blame the democrats taking control over the legislative branch for the recession, just as it is too simplistic to blame Mr. Bush for the same. One thing is clear though. The big spending that Mr. Bush supported represented a departure from conservative principles and an embrace of liberal principles. Democrats criticizing that spending are criticizing themselves because they have never advocated restraint on social spending.

The other complaint is that tax cuts some how are to blame for the deficits or economic problems. This is simply untrue. Tax cuts always promote economic growth, and significant tax cuts tend to increase government revenue. High taxes turn the economy into a bonzi tree by retraining growth. The tree in turn yields very little in the way of fruit. If the government takes 90% of the fruit it still gets very little juice because so little has been made. When the taxes are lowered, the restraints on growth are removed and the full-sized healthy tree yields more fruit. The government gets more juice from taking just 10% of the fruit, than it did from taking 90% of the bonzi's fruit.

The democrats show no signs of a desire to restrain spending and show a desire to increase taxes. This course of action won't fix the economy though it may recover despite their meddeling.

Alice
One thing more. This time about social security.

You don't have an accurate understanding of social security. You say "keep your hands off my social security", but it is too late for that. The government has already been dipping into it and squandering it for years. It is not about keeping my hands off of your social security, it is about putting your hands into my wallet to support your retirement.

You may have liked and supported that pyramid scheme for 50 or so years, but that poor decision doesn't give you the right to enslave younger generations who would rather provide for their own retirement rather than depend on the massively inept federal government.

You say "keep your hands off of my medicaid" but again there is no money to keep our hands off. Again you want to reach your hands into other's pockets insisting that they are obligated to serve you.

Let me share what I feel are my obligations. I will support my parents if they need it as they age. I will support my wife's parents as they age. I will support charities which will do a far better job helping those in need than the government ever will. I feel no obligation to pay a dollar into the federal system so that the truely needy can get a dime by the time that dollar filters through all the beaurocracy. If fell it is morally wrong to expect future generations to be compelled by the government to support me if I fail to adequately prepare for the time I cannot support myself.

USPatriot56
You have posted some very good comments today. I agree with them all. We do have some new crazies on the boards. Probably just some 'banned in Boston' retreads. Sneaked back on,like the Ranger does.

Faith, Logic and Reason...

“As long as the religious right is seen as controlling the Republican Party, the GOP will continue to lose some percentage of voters”.

The religious right does not control the Republican Party; it is only seen as controlling. This perception is killing the Republican Party; brought about by left-wing Democrats in their defense of abortion and the gay life-style.

“This percentage likely will increase over time as younger voters shift away from traditional to more progressive values”.

The case must be made regarding VALUES…Which values-set is more productive…Traditional or Progressive? I will take the hard working traditional over the feel-good progressive any day. Again, this VALUES perception is killing the Republican Party.

However, let faith inform one's values, but let logic and reason inform one's public arguments; Democrats fear this above all.

radical
Radical Christianists are those that are literalists, militant in their zeal, and wish to impose their values onto society.

They want to tell women what to do with their bodies when it comes to reproduction and they want to deny gays equal rights in respect to marriage, civil unions, adoption, and non-discrimination laws.

They want to impose their values onto the public schools by banning the teaching of evolution, homosexuality, world religion etc.

They want to halt scientific progress with stem cell research, cloning, global warming etc.

I don't like abortion personally but its going to happen anyways and it might as well happen in a safe medical environment. I don't think that I have the right to tell a women what to do with her body. If a women is raped or her life is in danger, she should have the choice of abortion.

We can lesson abortion through health care, education, and teaching men to use condoms.

Men are responsible for all pregnancies.

Of course radical Christianists are not as dangerous as radical Islamicists.

Some Christianists have bombed abortion clinics and murdered gays but they have not risen to the level of beheadings or suicide bombings or acts of mass terrorism.



Michael: There is not enough time to ...
respond to such a bunch of baloney as you have just posted.

You do not know anything about Christianity, or life for that matter.

All I can say is that you have been completely and thoroughly brainwashed by the LEFT.

It must be very painful living between your ears.

Whining Liberals
The 'Lost Boys' have insulted every sensible post today with their insanity. Now they whine that conservatives are mean .

To Matthew WV
I'm glad U agree that people like KP have a voice in our party..My problem with Ms Parker is that lately I haven't been able to figure out what her opinion is--Not even remotely!!
Cheers

uspatriot56
Define Christianity

one interesting point
If you look past the petty insults that Parker hurls at evangelicals, I found this paragraph interesting:

"They might take a cue from Nat Hentoff, a self-described Jewish-atheist, who has written as eloquently as anyone about the "indivisibility of life" and the slippery slope down which abortion leads. He uses logic and reason to argue that being pro-life, rather than resolving the religious question of ensoulment, is really a necessary barrier against selective killing, such as when someone else decides it's your time to die. "

One might be motivated to oppose abortion because of religion or humanist morality. When arguing about matters of policy, especially those that have a moral component, it is important to phrase one's arguments in moral/political rather than religious terms. Many Americans, especially if they are religious, don't like being preached at. But they are open to appeals to their sense of decency if the appeals don't sound too oogedy-boogedy.

Ms. Parker
What you are doing is heroic. You are doing a true service to this country. Few may see it yet, but history will record it.

Irrationality has seized these people. They were already ethically challenged to begin with, in case that was not obvious lately. They will say or do anything to hold onto their waning political power and to bring religious collectivism to this country. For them, the ends justifies the means, and that means lying about their true intentions with regard to religion and big government. Huckabee all but admitted it in his recent book, the ironically and reaction formation-titled Do The Right Thing. I am confident that with efforts like yours, their destructive hold on the Republican Party and conservativism in general will end soon.

USPatriot56
USPatriot56-- I do know about Christianity because I am a Christian. I just also happen to be sane and rational.

I am 26 years old and was raised in the Chrisitan and Missionary Alliance my entire life.

In fact I still go to a CMA Church even though I reject some of the things the pastor says.

"Oogedy-Boogedies" don't rule the GOP
I am a Fiscal Conservative that is none to happy with Bush's bailouts of late; however, I base my beliefs on principles that are not founded on religion. Yet, I agree with many of the positions that the "Oogedy-Boogedies" espouse.

If you think that McCain would have won but for his dependence on the oogedy-boogedies, I have some news for you. Without social conservatives, he would have lost in a landslide. In fact, I would argue that it was the fiscal conservatives that stayed home since they are tired of Republicans who try to be Democrats, especially since we can never outspend Democrats. For those Republicans that want to cross the aisle and make "nice, nice" with Democrats, I say the next time you crossover, stay there!

KP, you will find plenty of misguided comfort on the other side and your attack on Christians is getting tiresome. BTW, I am still awaiting your diatribe against Islamofascist terrorists. Christians are "fair game" in your book, but all other religions and atheists are off limits.

KP is death
Enough said

Atheists
Why do most atheists live as if the deep beliefs of other humans are of the highest possible importance?

Think about it. Why should molecules in evolution care what anyone else thinks about life, purpose, meaning, and the invisible world?

Why should this one tiny subset of all the molecules that make up humanity expend so much time and so much energy attempting to convince the majority of humans that there is no God?

Why should there be any such thing as a passionately argumentative nihilist? "Life is meaningless! Believe it--or else!"

Atheistic desperation is meaningful. Atheists are pawns on the losing side of an invisible battle. They hate God not because He doesn't exist, but because He does exist.

Their best weapon against Him is screwing their eyes tightly shut, plugging their ears, and shouting as loudly as they possibly can.

That works for some of them, but fortunately it doesn't work for all of them.

All atheists hope to die in unbelief. That's their plan, and some succeed, but God is far too kind to let them all have their own way.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Jesus is calling atheists to come to Him and know God. He knows some of them as His sheep. They hear Him--and they follow Him.

Haven't you noticed that it's easier to find a former atheist than a current atheist?

Some humans are still convinced that they can reject God--or (which is about the same thing) make up their own gods and invent their own rules by which their gods may be known and approached.

The TRUTH is that there is only one God who is living, true, and powerful. When did He ever ask our permission to be who He is?

A bewildered columnist.. .
Christianity is mistakenly viewed as a threat. It is perceived as menacing only because in a person's private life it constitutes an all-out assault on personal sovereignty. Idolaters sense this and no wonder it makes them seethe. They are not eager to have their 'secular-civil idealism' security blanket torn away by the strength of a superior persuasion that does not coddle their vanity.

Denise
Dec 7, 2008 - 12:26 AM EST
Thank you for this post. What a tolerant and gracious response, even though you don't share our beliefs. Some of these posters could learn manners from you.
The Republican party is not too religious, it is too free with my money. It's their penchant to spend, spend, spend like there's no tomorrow that disgusts social conservatives like me. I only voted for McCain because the alternative was so much worse.

Matthew 6
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."


Andrea from WI
The republicans are too loose with money. I'm not convinced the alternative was that much worse. I didn't vote in the presidential race because there are no underlying principles between obama and mccain that are different. They are both interventionist in every aspect, foreign and domestic. They're only disagreements are on how much money to spend on what and what shape their interventionism should take. Upton Sinclair (a socialist himself) once said that Americans would accept socialism, just not the label. That has been true for 75 years.

Alejandro
You're right. I think I'll write a book called "Slouching Toward Leningrad". LOL. The only good thing I could say about McCain was that he nearly always voted pro-life and that he would defend our country against foreign aggression...those two things are what separated him from Obama. But, I understand your reluctance to vote this election. My husband didn't vote and I had to hold my nose when I pulled the lever for the Republicans.

I like that title
That title is hilarious. I'd buy it.

But as a serious matter, the two parties really don't have serious philosophical disagreements.

I gather that you're probably fairly religious. I am glad to see that a religious and totally non-religious (myself) person can agree on something.

I'd be interested to hear what you think about the role of religion in public life. I recently watched a video of Greg Boyd, a conservative christian who says that religious involvement in conservative politics is hurting the church. I'm inclined to agree with him. It was a very engaging argument and one that I had not heard before. What do you think?

For SteveL
The point of my post was to simply state that I believe abortion is murder. I base that on the commandment that Thou shalt not kill. I believe life begins at inception, thats my belief, based on my religious views, Am I not entitled to have those views? because you don't believe in God or religion does that make you right? I objected to Kathleen Parkers line:The glue that binds the GOP's religious right -- social issues, especially abortion -- is not insignificant and doesn't deserve to be dismissed. But nor should those issues be tied to scripture. Some religious conservatives understand this, but the memo apparently isn't reaching all the pews.

I have the right as a religious conservative to base my opinion regarding abortion on the scripture,and to support conservative politicians who see it that way too. Parker insults my beliefs, as do you.

Andrea- Thx. and a clarification
You wrote:
Andrea
Location: WI
Reply # 6
Date: Dec 7, 2008 - 2:43 AM EST Denise
Dec 7, 2008 - 12:26 AM EST
Thank you for this post. What a tolerant and gracious response, even though you don't share our beliefs. Some of these posters could learn manners from you.
The Republican party is not too religious, it is too free with my money. It's their penchant to spend, spend, spend like there's no tomorrow that disgusts social conservatives like me. I only voted for McCain because the alternative was so much worse.

Andrea, thank you, but I wanted to clarify one thing. I am a Christian. It is just that I don't believe that one should vote for a person just because they are a Christian or pastors tell us to do so. A perfect example is Dollar Bill Jefferson, my now FORMER Congressman. Even though the Feds found $90K in marked bills (from bribery) inside an "Eggo Waffle" box in his freezer and he has multiple indictments filed against him, a litany of pastors around NOLA was imploring us to send him back to Congress for a 10th time. Thankfully, voters (Christian, Jews, atheists and agnostics) respectfully declined. For that, I say "Amen"!

No God in the arguments?
"I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and valley shall be made low... and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."
(Martin Luther King)
"If we suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which in the Providence of God must needs come, ... and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came..." Lincoln- Second Inaugural
The anti-slavery movement, the civil rights movement, grew out of and were steeped in what Kathleen Parker calls "oogedy-boogedy" or "armband religion." For many of us, our idiom is God- and that is as much true for the Berrigan brothers as ever it is for Rick Warren. And whether you say abortion denies the civil rights of a child or say "What hast thou done?! Thy brother's blood cries out to me from the ground?" does not matter. Except in this wise. You must speak the language of the person you are speaking to. Be that Rick Warren or Kathleen Parker.

The Problem with Arguing from Faith...
is that it leads nowhere. You say, "God says this", I say, "No, God says that". And then what?

I don't believe Kathleen Parker hates Christians. She never says Christianity per se is the problem. She specifically says that God is not the problem. She says that the intolerance of dissent, the faith-only arguments, the hysterical screeching of some Christians is the problem.

Twisting her argument into an attack on God, Jesus, Christianity, Christmas, etc. is nonsense, but it does serve to prove her point.

At WHAT point will TH cut-off this loser
How many lowest-rated lib screeds from this phony must we tolerate before she is cut-off??

Come'on Hugh, don't link to her anymore- Take away her power.

GET LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I make it any plainer Kathy? YOU and elite idiots LIKE YOU are the problem NOT the "God people". WE almost turned the election around the moderates trying to be Dem-lites turned it into a flaming "Charlie Foxtrot".

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!