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Wednesday, July 02, 2008
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Courage Under Fire
by Kathleen Parker
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WASHINGTON -- Being shot down may not qualify one to be president, as retired Gen. Wesley Clark infamously said recently. But what men do under fire might tell us about the character we may discover in a president.

Clark's precise words, aimed at undermining John McCain's executive experience, were: "I don't think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president." In fairness, Clark also praised McCain's heroism, saying that he honored his service as a prisoner of war and even that "he was a hero to me."

Predictably, Republicans were outraged and Democrats were outraged at the GOP's outrage. For his part, Barack Obama performed the political minuet of condemn 'n' distance. He condemned the remarks and distanced himself from his surrogate/general.

McCain made a few tepid remarks, but mostly let others put Clark in his place. And, though McCain is clearly content to use the iconic image of his younger pilot self for campaign purposes, he also has shrugged off his heroism.

"It doesn't take a great deal of effort to get shot down," McCain himself is fond of saying.

As the news cycle churns, Clark's comment was yesterday's chum. It was in poor taste, yes, but it wasn't the first time he had expressed similar thoughts. National Review's Byron York blogged in March that Clark viewed McCain's combat experience as inferior to Hillary Clinton's qualifications for office.

"If you look at what Hillary Clinton has done during her time as the first lady of the United States, her travel to 80 countries, her representing the U.S. abroad, plus her years in the Senate, I think she's the most experienced and capable person in the race," York quotes Clark as saying.

Ahem. Well. So much for that. Now that Clark is a military adviser to Obama, he apparently is still skeptical about McCain's qualifications.

Let's concede that surviving torture doesn't necessarily endow one with presidential mettle. And, fine, being shot down doesn't qualify one to direct the executive branch.

But Clark misses the point of McCain's story.

McCain isn't a hero because he was tortured. He's a hero because he declined an offer by his captors to be released, refusing to leave his fellow Americans behind.

It may not take much effort to get shot down, but it must take a considerable act of will to consign oneself to more deprivation and torture. It must take a level of courage unknown to most to place concern for others above one's own interest.

Surely self-sacrifice, courage and loyalty figure somewhere in the calculus for selecting a president.

We can make no similar analysis of Obama, since he hasn't fought in any wars in his lifetime. But we have been given a glimpse at how Obama responds to external pressures and where he draws the line on loyalty and self-sacrifice. When it comes to family and friends, it seems Obama is first a survivalist.

A few months ago, when the Rev. Jeremiah Wright first came to national attention, Obama was nearly demure when he said: "I can no more disown (Wright) than I can disown my white grandmother."

He may not have disowned his white grandmother, but Obama didn't exactly paint a sympathetic -- or loving -- portrait of her either. He essentially threw her under the bus, saying that she had made racist remarks while he was growing up, a statement that served only to highlight Obama's own remarkable transcendence.

After several weeks of balancing his professed love for Wright with the controversial statements of his chosen father figure and spiritual mentor, Obama eventually left his church of 20 years. But why then, after all those years, did Obama finally find the door?

What changed was the degree of his self-interest. As long as Wright was helping Obama burnish his bona fides within the African-American community, it didn't matter that the minister's rhetorical flights of fancy bordered on paranoid, racist delusion. Only when Wright became a potential obstacle to Obama's ambition -- by saying that Obama was simply behaving as a politician -- did Obama show Wright the underside of that very busy bus.

Clark is right that getting shot down doesn't qualify one to be commander in chief. But it is relevant to wonder with whom one would rather share a foxhole.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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integrity
My goodness. I can't believe your writing. Nor this website. Townhall? NOT. What a misnomer and just another example of right wing Republican plather. I just watched your interview on CSPAN, and as much as you tried to present yourself as non-biased, your columns, and this website, are indictive of your very right wing thinking and support. Haven't you seen enough of the demise of this country thanks to the Bush administration? I don't expect a reply as I know none will be coming. Hope you like where this great country is going if nothing changes.

Bravo, Luis Caballero


An excellent post; easily spotlights the corrupt, power-hungry people we're fighting on our Left. It's great to see Americans like yourself of hispanic descent; taking part in this all-important election cycle,

On the side of our next great President, John McCain ! Despite alarmists and white supremacist hate speech over the years, In McCain has arisen a gracious friend of all Spanish-speaking Americans.

Because of a fringe element in our GOP, Hispanics were always given short shrift --until this November. John McCain is setting things in order. That's why bitter right-wingers hate him. The times they are a-changing; God bless America!

Gen. Clark & Pentagon SPY
If General Wesley Clark is such a good judge of character, experience or patriotism then how could he had been the front man for the highest ever Pentagon Spy? How could Gen. Clark followed to a teeth the policy on Communist Cuba set out by convicted spy Anabel Montes?

She was in charged of the Cuba Desk during the Clinton years at the Pentagon that led to miss calculations consisting of the 120,000 Cuban Refugee rafters Castro pushed out to US shores, Brothers to the Rescue's two plans shot down in international waters, Castro's helping Chavez win the election in Venezuela and after Clinton left office dirty election victories of Communist in Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua.

I remember Gen. Clark saying that Cuba was not a military or political rick of USA Interest in the Americas. That why I think Gen. Clark is wrong on Senators McCain and Obama.

Regards,

Luis Caballero
1911 S.W. 33rd Court
Miami, Fl. 33145

Thanks for honoring me Butch


For somebody named for a dog, you seem to be a purist.

Dreadnaught is an honorable title. It stands for courage. To dread nothing in the world. Of course, I'm not worthy of such distinction. But I try to live up to it in these forums. What have I to be afraid of? When the truth is on your side, don't be afraid.

dreadnaught from CA
Darn your an old rusty bucket of scrap. Last go Dreadnaught was sunk over three decades ago. Most sank in war or where scrapped before they could be sunk with loss of all lives.
Maybe it is you who is the laugh of the posts.

BrianR and service to Country
To you sir and all those out there that have not served this great country.
The DOD has expanded it enlistment elligablity age to 35 yrs. old for Active Duty now and 38 yrs. Old for the Reserves. maube even hire.
Good time to do your dutry and earn some cash. I here they train you to, Oh yeah they trained me how to mix cement and build a building, more sand from this side of a road top the other. Then sent me off to a war zone with no building going on.
Had a great time ducking rockets, mortars, sniper and maching gun fire. While escorting convoyes and retrieving dammaged vehicles alon Highway 1 and 20.

to Doug in WA


I'm laughing to tears after having just read your latest post --

If it was Virginia Patriot who made you "see the light" you need more than just light.

You need a brain transplant. That guy is so dumb his marbles are in another county.

anointed to love one another
Subject: Re McCain who claims to be the annointed

We don't anoint our president, HD. What's more; your record of 57 years as model spouse hasn't made you the qualified priest who anoints him anyway. It only means you're faithful. You're a faithful man, and also seem to be a rabid pharisee. You need to lighten up.

McCain isn't running for heaven here. Nobody is. Your scruples won't make America a country of saints and McCain's sins won't damn all of us to hell. All men are sinners, unless you died on the cross to save us. Then YOU'RE anointed.

Re McCain who claims to be the annointed
A guy who divorces his wife and marries one moth after another chick, is no candidate to be the Commander in Chief no matter his having been shot down and spent years there in Vietnam.

What kind of example is he to the youth of American anyway; really not much better than Mr. Clinton, in my book. I guess this new chick was dropped into his lapp from heaven right after his divorce was final, for his happiness?

As for myself, a married man of 57+ plus having promised God Almighty to be true to my wife until death do us part, considers what McCain supposedly did, as the greatest betrayal ever, and does not deserve to be trusted as Commander in Chief, period, end of quote.

He can take all his military praise and experience and jump in the deepest lake and come out when he is fully washed and clear as warmonger. He is not much different than Mr. Hitler himself, who also thought that guns would bring happiness to his Germany.

I am only saying the above based on what I have learned about the Founding Fathers period, as a legal immigrant of 52+ years and as a stauch conservative Christian Republican.

doug:
Sorry. Thanks for YOUR input.

I hate it when my fingers refuse to follow instructions!

doug:
Thanks for you input.

insighting truth to answer this..Yes
Your posts are some of the best I see on TH, and yet I cannot identify a single poster who has been persuaded by your political acumen. It would be interesting to take a poll here, and see if anyone has ever changed their point of view based on something they read in these threads.

I have had my views changed on these threads, the issue imigration, the one who was able to help me see the light Virginia patriot.

BrianR
"Doug, in the military the word "hero"

has specific meaning, and is generally recognized with an award of some kind for valor."

Ms Parker did not assert McCain as hero certified by official military verbage, nor have I tried to redefine the "military" definition of hero on any military citation.

I think you dismiss this idea too easily and I am not sure it is your fault I say this in all honesty and sincere respect to you. I think it is that you faced combat and are so modest about it that you really dont understand how others (the majority of Americans)who have not faced it could think that it nothing more then doing ones duty to ones country.

Just to clue you in as one of those who have not faced combat or capture by an enemy. I am awestruck that this nations military personel handle themselves with such courage as is befitting the traditions of our services reputation as to be one of, if not the most honorable of the armed services in the world as proclaimed not just by ourselves but by many of the nations that have faught against us.

You BrianR see it with confidence as just doing your duty becouse you experienced it you were tested and you were proved capable.

Those of us that have not know we will never have anything that compares to it and will always wounder was I able and look to those that did and know they did something the rest of us hope we would do but will never be sure of. Becouse to most of us putting everything on the line and doing it honorably is the ideal and when we see people doing it and doing it well they are heros and we dont need any citation to tell us that.

I never thought any differently about what a hero is and I certainly wouldnt change it for Mr McCain.






The Powers
of the President are extremely limited. Before you debate the policies, or lack thereof, of the candidates PLEASE READ Article 2 Sections 2 & 3 of the U. S. Constitution. AS WELL note the following: "Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully EXECUTE the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and DEFEND the CONSTITUTION of the United States." A president is to be the CEO of government charged with making certain that it runs according to the Constitution. He doesn't swear to defend the country (he only conducts a war declared by Congress); he cannot force legislation to lower/raise taxes; he cannot create new laws that will bail you out of your bad mortgage, lower gas prices and penalize the big, bad oil companies, ban abortion, and yada, yada, yada. He may only temporarily block bills coming from the House & Senate and suggest new laws. What I want to hear from just ONE candidate is the following: "What you ask and expect of me in matters of law is something that would be beyond my Constitutional powers; what you want can only come from the House and Senate and, barring any Constitutional prohibition, even in matters that I find contrary to the public weal, my ability to do what you desire is only temporary at best. I will do everything in my power to free you from existing laws contrary to the Constitution and do everything in my power to block those that come before me that also only serve to grow government and further restrict your liberty. "
That honest pronouncement, coupled with integrity and a firm, unclouded understanding of the Constitution is, to me, the mark of someone worthy of being the President!

Dream on, Sleeping Beauty
Oh, well;

If Bush were running for president this year, one or two people in this country might join you falling off that cliff.

We'll watch the election cycle if you don't mind.


Qualification
It's hard to argue that being an ex-POW is qualification for president, but Mr. McCain has had other leadership roles in the military. It's equally hard to believe that being an ex-civil rights lawyer would make you qualified for the complex role of president.

beg for your dinner


So, you want to impeach Bush? Good luck, Loser.


I've always maintained that W has distinguished himself by becoming a much tougher president than his old man. After all; he's Barbara Bush's son; and that's saying a lot.

We get these Boo birds here frequently. Hatred for Bush is what distinguishes them. Not very much intelligence or staying power. No class; that's their stigma. They're usually begging for attention. Like this clown; belittling a President. Talks big; but he probably lives in a public library.

Wow; this article caught fire


Bravo, Kathleeen; you're getting a lot of miles from a warm-hearted appraisal of the centrist Geezer from AZ.

He deserves the love of our country's loyal citizens. Most of all because he doesn't make a lot of hay out of his military past. It just speaks for itself.

Frankly, I think Mac's benefiting this campaign season from the way Obama keeps up a sly liberal facade. McCain doesn't seem caught up in a nervous fencing match before the public. The other man has been lulled into passive oratory and "makeovers"-- along with his wife. Mac lets Obambi walk his tightrope. Maybe he thinks the media's adulation of Obama is soon reaching that point of diminishing returns.

It helps McCain as well that everyone's aware of Obama's Chicago drapery. The old sleaze curtain which has already dropped into plain view; Wright, Reshko, the disgusting Farrakhan connection. After all that, we only need a floating crap game to complete the Obama picture. While McCain is running a tortoise marathon. One lap behind for the present. But by November?

Hero?
InsightingTruth

Finally there is someone willing to step outside of the hype about McCain's supposed heroics. Since 911 the word hero is the most misaligned word in our vocabulary. I suggest everyone go back to the dictionary.

Addendum to brianR
As to your statement that Mccain is no more a "Hero" than any other POW you are right, fool. They are all Heros and deep down in I think you are jelous of the fact that they can be considered that. I further think you are a little ashamed because you question whether you could withstand what they did.

BrianR
If you don't want to lose a bet on me don't bet I haven't served or that I haven't served in combat. I was eighteen months in that lovely seaside resort that you claim to have served in. I may have even inserted you into your LZs. 114th Assault Helicopter Company.Vihn Long was "home" for me for too long. Red Knights Rule the Delta!

MLK is Spinning in His Grave!
Let me get this straight: I'm hearing from the Democratic leadership that surviving torture while in service of one's country is no qualification for POTUS, but I'm hearing from rank and file Democrats that they're voting for Obama because he's Black? Didn't MLK have a dream that, one day, people would be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character?

maldain Re: UCMJ
maldain
Location: OR

Reply # 24
Date: Jul 2, 2008 - 4:20 PM EST Subject: Re: BrianR post #77
Just a quick question but in 67 weren't all Navy enlisted and officers under the old Rocks and Shoals rules rather than the UCMJ? It wouldn't make a difference in this case as the rule is the same to not leave crew behind.

~~~

When I joined the Navy in 1960, the UCMJ had already replaced the 'Rocks and Shoals'.

I believe the Korean Conflict was the last War in which they were in effect.

Rats
(and mice)







Phil Byler #66
you wrote: The election for me in good part comes down to whom do I want as the Commander in Chief -- McCain or Obama? The answer is clearly and unquestionably McCain; he is and has been the most qualified of any of the candidates in this respect. In contrast, I cannot imagine Obama as Commander in Chief. Neither should you.

I agree 100% with you. I cannot even begin to imagine Obama as Commander in Chief. Commander of the a local chapter of an Illinois Community Action Center, maybe. Commander in Chief of the greatest military in the world...NOT!

You, sir, must be very proud of your sons who are serving our country. To them I say "Thank you!" May God bless you, and your sons and their families for the sacrifices they have made to continue to secure those freedoms all Americans enjoy.

Rose in CA #77
Thank you for your post. I am in complete agreement with everything you've said. I wish more people on this thread stated the same.

I wish to say thank you to the many military men and women who serve our country and to the veterans who have served in the past. Please don't be discouraged by some of the posts here. There are plenty of people across this land who are most grateful to those of you who chose to serve our country in order to secure the freedoms we Americans enjoy.

You are my heroes and I continue to keep you and your families in my prayers. May God bless you all!


Thanks BrianR
It is a nice compliment, and very much appreciated.

Well said, Insighting!

That was great!

Retired Geek asks:
"Someone explain to me please when is hurting America a noble thing to do and when is it an ignoble thing to do?"

It is noble if the pain inflicted today is for the purpose of ensuring a better tomorrow. Like performing a painful medical procedure to cure a stricken patient.

It is ignoble when it is done for any number of selfish reasons. Like the lust for power over others.

The two parties have indeed become a cancer in the American body politic. The disease has manifested itself in the form of the poorest excuses for presidential candidates ever to gain ascendance within their respective parties, with the possible exception of John Kerry for the Democrats. Thankfully Kerry is no longer an issue.

Bballdoc, whenever you start into

"motivations" and other forms of mindreading, you're entering dangerous territory.

That's the exact same rationale that's used to justify "hate crime" laws.


Doug, in the military the word "hero"

has specific meaning, and is generally recognized with an award of some kind for valor.

If you want to redefine it, hey! Knock yourself out!

Hell, nowdays Angelina Jolie's a "hero" for adopting about a million kids.

Go figure.

Dread, then kudos for your intellectual

consistency.

You: "i've never denigrated Kerry's service; only his political hypocrisy"

Then that's fine. The reason I asked the question was that I find it simply amazing that many people who today call McCain a "hero" based on doing nothing other than his duty are the same people who called Kerry a coward four years ago, when Kerry did nothing LESS than his duty.

In my opinion, both are on a par. Neither have any claim to "hero" status, nor were they slackers. They did what was required of them under prevailing but different circumstances.

BRIANR

.....I have to quibble with your assessment of Obamas motives ...I think he hates America ...that is why he wants to change it ...

.....The goal of all Marxists, of which I am convinced that Obama is one, ...is the destruction of Capitalism and God ...also their creed is that "the end justifies the means"...which means that it is okay to lie, cheat, steal etc it helps you to achieve your goal ...and Obamas goal is the White House ...

.....I believe that he must be stopped .....COLOSSUS

This is were we differ
"ALL of that having been said, McCain's "refusal" of early repatriation wasn't an act of heroism; it was his military duty under the Code of Conduct and the UCMJ."

Even if something is nothing more then your military duty it does not reduce the heroism of the act.


Geek, my answer to your question

When BOTH candidates are hurting the country, one is presented with a Hobson's Choice: to vote for someone harmful to the country, or not?

I'll take Door #2.


baseballdoc:
No offense taken.

I've long been an admirer of Murphy. It offends my sense of justice when people apply the appellation hero to the likes of McCain.

In an earlier post BrianR added a couple of names to the list of true heroes that I heartily agree with.

Courage Under Fire
Excellent article and great campaign slogan: With whom would you rather share a foxhole?

Bballdoc

I'll quibble with one thing you wrote.

I agree that McCain wants what he thinks is best for this country...... but so does Obama.

The difference is that we all disagree with Obama's idea of what that means.

Only SOME of us disagree with McCain, it would seem.


INSIGHTING TRUTH

.....Well forgive me for expanding on your post ...I apologize .....COLOSSUS

Bravo, nutnfiner
Than to be in Carolina in the mo-o-o-rning!

Brian just had his head handed to him. Again.

Brian has asked me to sandwich John F. Kerry and John McCain; for some wacky reason.

He forgets; Kerry is no Republican; McCain is. i''ve never denigrated Kerry's service; only his political hypocrisy. (He's one of the pretend Catholics who ostensibly received Holy Communion; a sacrilege. McCain is Pro-Life. I should honor an abortion enabler because he was in Nam for a cup of coffee & then went home to offer aid and comfort to the Viet Cong? PLEASE, Brian.

Don't even GO there. (I also salute the Swift Boat Vets for Truth, God bless every one of them.)

Ms. Parker, It Ain't Necessarily So
Dear Ms. Parker:

You write: "What men do under fire might tell us about the character we may discover in a president."

Maybe not. Universally, Sen. McCain, who served his country honorably and spent five years as a prisoner of war, is considered an American Hero. You can't take that away from him.

But just as evident is the fact that when it comes to politics, John McCain is a wuss.

Case in point: For four long years, Sen. McCain relentlessly criticized Donald Rumsfeld for conducting what McCain describes as a "terribly mismanaged war." But, incredibly, Sen. McCain has not held Rumsfeld's boss, Pres. Bush, accountable.

Even when most people, including Republicans, were clamoring for the dismissal of Rumsfeld, Pres. Bush continued to stand by his inept Secretary of Defesne to the end, even as casualty tolls mounted.

And what does it tell you about John McCain's character when he now embraces Pres. Bush, whose team maligned Sen. McCain's family and distorted facts which led to McCain's defeat in the 2000 presidential South Carolina primary?

Retired Geek:
Actually, I too thought that was a Jefferson quote. However, I was afraid to trust my memory, so I looked it up. The first site I looked at attributed it to Douglas. It wasn't until after I posted that comment you are referring to that I went back, look a little harder, and found out my first thought was the correct one. One just can't be to careful when one researches on the Internet.

Question for everyone?

Some Americans will do whatever damage they can to hurt America instead of working to protect America, all in the name of political expediency.

It is difficult to admit when we are wrong.

Someone explain to me please when is hurting America a noble thing to do and when is it an ignoble thing to do?


Everyone have a good afternoon!

After I finish my volunteer work I will check back for the answer.

IN DEFENSE OF MCCAIN

.....Let me be clear that McCain is probably the worst candidate, from a conservative point of view, that the GOP could have chosen ...among the candidates, he would have been my last choice ...

..... Having said that, inspite of McCains misguided views, I believe that he loves America and would never willing do anything to hurt his Country ...

.....I cannot say the same about Obama ...I believe that Obama and his mentors and associates are Marxists who would radically CHANGE the country if they are put in charge ...

.....I was engaged in two wars to defend this Country ...I don't want to see it fundementally changed ...with all its faults and flaws I like it just the way it is ....the name of the game is FREEDOM ...and I believe that is what will be lost if Soros' sock puppet Obama is elected .....COLOSSUS

Maldain, I know that

when I went into the Army in 1969, the UCMJ was in force, which was "Uniform", meaning it applied to all the services.

Further, the Code of Conduct was universal in application, and was formulated in the 50s in response to some of the American POWs in the Korean War having cooperated with their captors.

So I'm not sure how to answer, other than what I just wrote.

baseballdoc:
I thought that's what I said. I just didn't tell so much of the story.

nutnfinr

You're correct, the Medal's awarded by the Defense Department and usually presented by the President, but in military slang it's commonly referred to as the CMOH.

I don't favor Obama. I don't favor McCain. A pox on both their houses.

I think it's better for the GOP and the country in the long run if McCain doesn't win.

As to "get a life"... don't you mental midgets have any better ammo than that?


Insightingtruth et al
Thomas Jefferson is attributed with saying, "The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance." On the morning of June 3, 1779

That is a little before the time of Frederick Douglas February who was born 1818 – and died February 20, 1895.

If memory serves that saying is inscribed in the Jefferson memorial.


Well, Marc

In four years a comet might land on the White House, too.

SCOTUS appointments aren't persuasive, and here's why (man, I need to save a "copy-and-paste" version):

The two most likely to retire are the two oldest and most liberal: Ginsburg and Stevens. So two libs get replaced with two OTHER libs. So what?

Kennedy was appointed by Reagan.

O'Connor and Souter were both appointed by Republicans. SCOTUS appointments are always a crapshoot.

Here's McCain on the Supreme Court:

On Ginsburg: "Highly qualified"

On Alito: "He wears his conservatism on his sleeve" (meant as an insult)

In order to appoint truly Originalist justices, McCain would have to appoint justices who'd find McCain-Feingold unconstitutional, legislation he still considers his legacy. How likely is that?

Last year in Wisconsin Right To Life v. FEC, McCain filed an amicus brief supporting the FEC. Fortunately, SCOTUS ruled for WRTL, partially dismantling McCain-Feingold.

Not persuasive to me.

Re: BrianR post #77
Just a quick question but in 67 weren't all Navy enlisted and officers under the old Rocks and Shoals rules rather than the UCMJ? It wouldn't make a difference in this case as the rule is the same to not leave crew behind.

INSIGHTING TRUTH

.....Audie Murphy grew up in a small North Texas town and joined the Army after being turned down by the Navy and Marines ...he came out of WWII as the nations most decorated soldier including the Medal of Honor ...I remember seeing his picture on the cover of Life Magazine with a chest full of medals ...he looked no older than a high School Senior ...

.....The definition of a hero is action above and beyond the call of duty and Murphy fit that description to a Tee ...the exploits in his 1949 biographical book which was made into the movie "To Hell and Back" came directly out of his personnel file ...

.....McCain did his duty as proscribed by the Military Code of Conduct ...he exhibited bravery under torture but this does not make him a hero in the sense that Audie Murphy was a hero ...

.....To cut McCain some slack ...I believe the hero label was pinned on him by the media but by the same token, I don't think he went out of his way to deny it .....COLOSSUS

The male ego war
Many years I worked as a computer software problem solver. I always had to state to my clients many of whom were the largest in the world in their field:

"Are you paying me to tell you who caused the problem or are you paying me to tell you what the problems are or are you paying me to solve the problem?"

"There will be plenty of time to determine who caused the problem and what they were after we solve them and get everything running again."

I feel the same way in todays political process everyone is focused on who/what/when/where instead of 'What is the best solution to Americas problems with the least collateral damage and expense?'

Liberals always criticize process - conservatives always criticicize unwillingness of Liberals to stand up for anything except their failed Liberal social programs.

Some criticize the candidates and the fact that they are not lined up with the issues they hold dear.

Consideration for our Country and the American citizen are but simple pawns in the battle of mostly male egos.

America is trapped in a conflict of political opinions based on collective groups who think they have the 'TRUE' answer.

When is America going to focus on solving our problems with the least collateral damage?

I live in the real world.
I know that if we don't stop voting for socialists (Obama & McCain) we always get socialists. McCain is arguably the worst GOP nominee ever, and I include Dole. Common sense informs me that now is the perfect time to break the grip the socialists and the neo-cons have upon my country. The process will be difficult, but it must be begun if it is ever to be finished. If not now, when?

BrianR....
Just a small point. There is no such thing as the Congressional Medal of Honor, or CMOH as you call it.

It is the Medal of Honor, conferred by the president, not by congress.

One more. McCain was obligated to do what he did, but very few service people have to do that under the conditions he endured for years. In my opinion, he had great courage and committment. Does that make him a hero? Don't know about that. But does it mean he has grit and character. Absolutely!

Hussein, who you seem to favor, has Rev Wrong and a whole host of lefties, radicals, terorists he counts among his friends and advisors, plus his unproud wife who is an angry person going somewhere to happen. He is a word mechanic and he leans so far left that his left elbow is callused.

I also served in the 82nd Airborne Div in the Dominican Republic, and two tours in Nam in Special Forces, the last in SOG. Three Bronze Stars, one with "V."

Get a life!

You missed a small point....
"I find THAT future for this country much more of a danger than anything Obambi can do in four years."
In four years Pinocchiobama might have the power to appoint tow or three Supreme Court Judges. Imagine then the reprocussions of lifetime appointments. Leave alone the other federal judge appointments. You must agree with activist judges usurping the will of the people and legislating from the bence. Or are you not capable of seeing the harm to society that derives from judges like Weinstein in brooklyn and the ca. supremes. Four years of marxism is too much.I know, Pinocchiobama is my senator!

Hey, Deadhead

Still waiting for your answer on Kerry.

Is he a "hero" too?


checked out the link


Brian says he's seconded by others like Tom Davis

Who is a FORMER bigshot.

But I read the commentary from this group at MSNBC (major Obama pimps) and turns out all of em are in the Democrat camp. So, Brian has pals across the aisle. That makes him happy!

As for the "brand" we have these same "leaders" to thank; even more than Bush. They alienated all of America's hispanic voters with their stupid hate speech; and all the fence-hugging. It lost them their vaunted majority in Congress, empowered Nancy & Dirty Harry -- Thanks, "base."

Now one of those creeps laments GOP's "brand" gone bad. Good riddance to these basdrads. McCain restores our faith in the GOP. Better late than never.

By dissing Mac; our phonies here help Obama LET IT ALL HANG OUT--


.



I agree, Insight

An invasion will never get anywhere.

A huge landmass, an armed populace; it's simply impossible.

Our biggest danger is from ourselves: rot from within; turning into a Euro-style social democracy.

Following in the steps of the Roman Empire, something I've written about in my last serious essay, and a road we seem to be on at this time.

http://viewfromtheisland.blogtownhall.com/2008/02/13/bread_ and_circuses.thtml


InsightingTruth et al
InsightingTruth wrote: "...we must all pull together to keep McCain, and, if possible, Obama out of the White House..."

Who exactly would be in the White House then?

Bob Barr is a good man, who has a slightly better chance of being in the White House than you do.

Plans not based on reality are based on what?

Life is difficult and reality is a harsh task master.

Americans will never...
...lose the will to be free. I have little faith in "general consensus" because it is permeated with prejudice.

Many Americans are confused. Decades of Newspeak, has left them bereft of the true language of freedom. The world sees the actions of our government. They do not see into our hearts.

If any people on earth see weakness in the American soul, let them invade. It won't take them long to realize their mistake!

Allegiance to Mecca
There are 9.3 million Islamists in America. We do not know whether any of them are radical Islamists or not.

We do know that their allegiance has to be to Mecca and not Washington DC or they must give up their religion.

In France we saw the Islamic citizens burn everything in sight and it lasted over 4 weeks.

No riot in America has seen the violence nor have they lasted 4 weeks.

If 1% of the Islamists in America are radical that is 93,000 people or 1860 per state.

PS, Insighting

I'm not the only one who thinks this way, as evidenced here:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/14/1022156.a spx

"the Republican brand is in the trash can...if we were dog food, they would take us off the shelf."

GOP Rep. Tom Davis

Ronald Reagan on perserverance
"Let us be sure that those who come after will say of us in our time, that in our time we did everything that could be done. We finished the race; we kept them free; we kept the faith."
Ronald Reagan
------------------------------------------------

Finish the Race
Keep America Free
Keep the Faith

Scare tactics do not need to be used in 2008.

Israel has decided, it appears, to stop the Nuclear capabilities of Iraq.

I belong to places like TH all over the world and the general consensus is that America has lost its will to stay Free.

2008 or 2009 may be the year that America has to prove itself once again.

Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. American Patriots do not have that problem.

Interestingly enough, Insight

GunnyG was an early convert. There have been a few others who've said they were persuaded, too, and it's hard to tell who among others of our mind already had their opinion or may have been swayed. I know there are quite a few folks who regularly read my blog when I was posting new essays, and I've been writing about this issue for over two years, so there may be some who saw my logic before it became such a prevalent and explosive issue.

But I'd like to think that's it's really so self-evident that it's an issue of common contemplation in the world at large. I don't know; maybe not. In which case we're in very serious trouble, if people aren't even thinking about these things.

But I think it is, and that's reflected in the numbers: McCain's general support being pretty low, reflecting the membership numbers of the GOP, which itself has lost popularity at the same time the Dems have maintained their membership numbers and the percentage of "independants" has risen. That tells me people are leaving the GOP but not joining the Dems. Why? Because the GOP's gone off-message and lost its way. It doesn't stand for anything anymore.

Thanks for those kind words, btw; I truly appreciate them.


Retired Greek:
Frederick Douglas said it better, "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance."

That is exactly why we must all pull together to keep McCain, and, if possible, Obama out of the White House. I know the latter is a long-shot, but I feel I owe it to my children and grandchildren to try, does anyone owe any less to theirs?

Ronald Reagan on Freedom
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."
Ronald Reagan

Thanks BrianR:
You and dreadnaught, that makes two. I feel like the King of the World.

Your posts are some of the best I see on TH, and yet I cannot identify a single poster who has been persuaded by your political acumen. It would be interesting to take a poll here, and see if anyone has ever changed their point of view based on something they read in these threads.

James Cone -> Mentor Wright -> Obama
"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."
James Cone
New York's Union Theological Seminary

Mentor Wrights' theology is based on the teachings of James Cone.

"It was because of these newfound understandings (at Trinity under Wright) -- that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice...that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity...and be baptized." Barack Obama

Obama and his faith based initiatives will go to the likes of Fr Pfleger, Farrahkan and the NOI, Black Separatist churches and Marxist based schools.

Want $10 a Gallon Gas
“I think that I would have preferred a gradual adjustment. The fact that this is such a shock to American pocketbooks is not a good thing.”
Barack Obama
------------------------------------------------
Keep electing Democrats!

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans: Supported
House Democrats: Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: Supported
House Democrats: Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: Supported
House Democrats: Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: Supported
House Democrats: Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: Supported
House Democrats: Opposed

Obama and Oil
The utopian liberals think that if gas prices get high enough, everyone will move back to the cities where they are in control, the unions run all the public transit and utilities, and they get to tell us how we get to work and where we live. It’s a dream come true! Empty out the red states and the suburbs that vote Republican!

How much do you think your school taxes are going to go up next year because the school districts are being killed with high prices? Liberals wanted bigger schools so they could indoctrinate our kids easier, but it takes busses that get horrible gas mileage to get all those kids to the big schools. Add to that the minimum wage increase for bus drivers and janitors and secretaries and cafeteria workers that the liberals rammed through.

- 2 Trillion barrels of oil are estimated in the United States Oil-Shale Reserves (USGS)
- 400 Billion barrels of oil are estimated under the Arctic Ocean
- 175 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in the Oil Sands of Alberta, Canada (AGS)
- 86 Billion barrels of oil are estimated on the Outer Continental Shelf of the United States (MMS)
- 32 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in ANWR, NPRA and the Central North Slope in Alaska (USGS)
- 31.4 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in the East Greenland Rift Basins Province (USGS)
- 15 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in Jack field in the Gulf of Mexico
- 7.3 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in the West Greenland–East Canada Province (USGS)
- 4.3 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in the Bakken shale formation in North Dakota and Montana, United States (USGS)
- 214 Million barrels of oil are estimated in the Illinois Basin, United States (USGS)

For Comparison:
- 2 Trillion barrels of oil are estimated in the United States Oil-Shale Reserves (USGS)
- 260 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in Saudi Arabia (EIA)
- 80 Billion barrels of oil are estimated in Venezuela (EIA)


I read 'em, Insight!

The only ones I skip are Robert's.


Obama and National Security
"Islam can be compatible with the modern world. It can be a partner with the Christian & Jewish & Hindu & Buddhist faiths in trying to create a better world." Barak Obama 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

compatible = capable of existing together in harmony.
Islam is a 700 AD religion and has NO rights for women.

partner = to join as a partner.
Islam and the Jewish religion partners?
================================================
"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

Obama thinks Hamas and Iran can become partners with America and Israel?

“At the “World Without Zionism” conference held in Tehran in October 2005, as the crowd chanted “death to Israel, death to America, death to England,” the Iranian President Ahminajead said...with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt.”

Obama is talking about negotiating with the madman from Iran who has stated in no uncertain terms that America and Israel will be destroyed im Ahminajeads lifetime?

Obama is naive and thinks he can tax America out of our problems.

Qualifications of McCain
If an extraordinary military carreer is no qualification (which Clark says to his own diminishment), then how about having 4 times as mich Senate Experience as Obama and Hillary combined? If Senate experience means nothing, then why vote for Obama? For his Charity work on the strewets of Chicago?? Hmmmmmm?

dreadnaught:
Huh, I thought a claque was a paid audience, or an entourage of sycophants. Oh well, I don't get paid extra for accurate word usage anyway.

Still, it was nice of you to take the time to read my post. I think most people just skip over my comments.

Well, Geek

Obviously we don't agree. Your strategy of "holding your nose", in my opinion, simply leads to more of the same in the future. It's the equivalence of Einstein's dictum that repeating the same action while expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Nothing succeeds like success, and when the GOP has the idea in mind that running to the Left assures electoral success -- as McCain's election would -- why would they ever change strategy?

We've seen the end of that road right here in Leftifornia, where the GOP is meaningless, simply an adjunct of the Dem Party, Dem-Lite.

I find THAT future for this country much more of a danger than anything Obambi can do in four years.

Further, your rationalization can ALWAYS be made. I can't remember a single election in my lifetime that wasn't "the world hanging in the balance".

Remember the "Speaker Pelosi! Majority Leader Reid!" hysteria of 2006? Turned out to be a false alarm. They've been toothless. A paper tiger.

If Obambi ends up President, maybe the congressional GOPers will finally find their gonads and stand up for something, but If McCain's President, we can expect clear sailing for all kinds of horrible liberal legislation as he "reaches across the aisle" to his Dem buds, and the GOPers don't oppose him because he's "one of them".

I won't be a party to any of that.

goatlockerloungelizard:
When did McCain put his own money at risk?

BrianR et al
There is no doubt in my mind that John McCain has given us conservatives the finger.

That being said as ex Army and lifelong supporter of this country my desire is to do the best I can for the country I so dearly love.

I come from a meager background and was able to achieve great success in America through hard work and determination.

I understand completely the angst that we all feel but this is 2008 and our country is in "a clear and presnt danger" from without and within, not just our political system but the very survival of our beloved country.

I have no intention of trying to sway you in any way about who you will vote for and couldn't, I am sure.

I am appealing to you that most of us see an almost hopeless situation about the safety of our country and I do not understand why you want to take the faint glimmer of hope we might have away from us.

I do not think from all that I see that 2008 parallels pre Reagan days. If Obama is elected for 4 or 8 years I do not see a recovery time in the future.

Iran and other glassy eyed suicidal maniacs have determined to destroy America and they are on the verge of creating Nuclear Weapons.

Nuclear Weapons are abundant it appears on the black market as well.

This is a time for 'all hands on deck' to survive - I appeal to your patriotism - do not take away what little hope we have right before the battle.

I have focused on defeating Obama since before the primaries and continue to this day - would you join me in that endeavor?

Well, then, Doug

First of all, I never said -- yet again -- that McCain wasn't honorable, nor did I doubt his courage.

In fact, to clearly set the record straight, I admire McCain's military service. I admire Naval Aviators in particular, because being a pilot myself, I understand the skill level involved.

My hat's always off to anyone who served honorably in the military in any capacity, and especially those who served honorably in combat.

I especially grant honor to POWs, living or dead, because that's an especially trying condition under any circumstances.

I think Clark's statements about McCain's flying skills were despicable -- particularly given his OWN spotty military record -- and I've never been one to criticize McCain's flying record, the accident or accidents. Those could happen to anyone; I wasn't there and can't pass a judgement.



ALL of that having been said, McCain's "refusal" of early repatriation wasn't an act of heroism; it was his military duty under the Code of Conduct and the UCMJ.


Merry Colin

Thank you! But I'm afraid you are a voice cyrying out in the wildrness. Just let one or more contributers on these threads get the bit between their teeth, and there is no stopping them. Sometimes the results can be quite amusing, but, more often than not, they are merely tedious.

dear insighting truth:


Thanks for your loving tribute to McCain. BTW--a "claque" is made up of naysayers; such as the odious Brian Shrek and one or two others. Not supporters.

I myself think McCain was heroic if not a altogether a hero. Why? He suffered excruciating pain during his POW term. It might have destroyed him, yet it didn't. He always thought first of his American friends in captivity; as a great man should.

We can see as well some insight into why he's sympathetic (in some ways) to our hispanic-Americans here in the U.S. And he's never ashamed to express this feeling. Men in action forge a bond with one another. That is if they're are of noble souls; (some are simple time-servers). I suggest McCain & others --along with Spanish-speaking servicemen of the era became that band of brothers. Of course, nobody else cares and they don't have to. But I see that as heroic.

BrianR saying this
"He's a hero because he declined an offer by his captors to be released, refusing to leave his fellow Americans behind."

Does not make you this.
"ignorant of the Code of Conduct operative at the time."

Nor does simply following the law negate the honor of doing so. As to choice McCain choose to Serve his country, he choose to be a pilot.
Honorable things.

To serve in the military through combat in a honorable way is heroic to me.



Well, goatlizard

In your case, displaying my superior brain power is no great achievement.


Foxhole?
Obama in a foxhole?
Kind of like Dukakis in a tank.


Inciting Delusions of Grandiosity
Thanks for the lecture on the definition of heroism. But is there a point to your bloviation? Or do you just like to display your enormous, superior brain capacity?

Here's my point. McCain put his money -- and everything else -- where his mouth is, repeatedly, under tremendous duress and difficulty. He proved his mettle, and his sacrifice demands our respect.

As a public figure, he's fair game for criticism in every regard. But to denigrate what he has given up in the name of service to our nation is beyond the pale...even for an arrogant blowhard like you.

PS, goatlizard

The only reason I mentioned my own service was because some of you attackers made the accusation that I hadn't been in the service, and therefore didn't know what I was talking about.

That's the ONLY circumstance under which I EVER mention my own time in the Army.

I don't peg my self-worth on the fact that I'm a vet.


Well, goatwhatever

Have I called myself a hero, or stood silently by while anyone else did?

Nope.

Which was exactly the point, and which clearly flew right over your lizard head.


Byler, as I've always written

You're entitled to your vote for McCain for your own reasons, whatever they are. You're happy voting for him. Hey, that's great! I'm happy for you, and I'm not being ironic or facetious. I wish I could find myself in the same position.

By the same token, I have my own reasons for deciding NOT to vote for McCain.

The problem here is that YOU don't think MY reasons are valid.


Hmmmm...... why should I consider YOUR reasons any more valid than MINE?

I don't, bottom line, and you don't like that.

Well, frankly, that's just too bad.

Ooops, wrong key

Shugart and Gordon CHOSE to rappel down from a helicopter to defend a wounded chopper pilot in one of the downed Blackhawks.

They fought off a horde of Somalis down to their last round of ammo, and were killed.

That's heroism; action "above and beyond" what's required as part of one's normal duties, as defined by military regulation.

They were both awarded the CMOH posthumously.

BrianR...American Hero
Interesting how easily you dismiss McCain's actions as merely what he was obligated and ordered to do, while bragging about your own service out of the other side of your mouth.

Are you a payday loan lender, by chance? Or perhaps an Amway rep?

Please feel free to take your superior intellect (what's your IQ, anyway?...just curious) and post elsewhere, since you're too good for the likes of we who have the audacity to call you on your attacks against a thoroughly well documented, by many firsthand eyewitness accounts, genuine hero whose service many of us find inspirational.

Not to mention a man whose own sons have and likely will serve in harm's way, as well. As the fourth (or more?) generation of McCains to serve our country in time of war.

And Obama's service? More like self-service, if you ask me.

More heros, InsightTruth

Shugart and Gordon, in Somalia during the Blackhawk Down incident. Two Delta Forcers.

They CHOSE

To BrianR
Suggestion: why don't you think about 2008 and the choice we have this year taking into account the following perspective. My older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant who earned a Bronze Star and a Commendation Medal for Valor for actions under fire during his 15 months as an infantry platoon leader in Iraq. My younger son is a Second Lieutenant in the U.S. Marines. The election for me in good part comes down to whom do I want as the Commander in Chief -- McCain or Obama? The answer is clearly and unquestionably McCain; he is and has been the most qualified of any of the candidates in this respect. In contrast, I cannot imagine Obama as Commander in Chief. Neither should you.

Hero
Audie Murphy was a hero.

No one who understands the criteria of heroism, especially McCain himself, has ever described McCain as a hero. If you believe the official version of McCain's experience as a POW, it may be valid to call him brave. It may be valid to say he comported himself well as an officer in the U.S. Navy. But, his actions were no more than that which is expected of any U.S. soldier under similarly trying circumstances, do not elevate him to hero status, unless we set the bar so low as to include every man in uniform, or at least every man who ever experienced POW status.

Sorry boys and girls, semi-competent flying, and having the great misfortune of falling into enemy hands does not make McCain a hero. That is unless you are a mindless sycophant, or literally in McCain's claque.

Good for you, Byler

I always like a guy who's firm in his denial of facts.


To BrianR re 12:09 PM Post
You really are off the mark in your carping criticism of John McCain and those of us who are defending him against the comments such as you have made. I stand on my 7:24 AM post.

Further, 45cal

I wish I could remember the details better, but sometime during my last year in the Army, which would have been in the 71-72 time frame, there actually was a guy who took an early release.

As I recall, he was an EM, maybe a low NCO rank, and for quite a while there was debate on whether or not to move forward with a court-martial for the guy. I was working at HQ 115th MI Gp at the time at the Presidio SF, so we were involved, as he'd been transferred to 6th Army jurisdiction from USARPAC.

I think the ultimate decision was to just DD him and let it drop.


What happened..
to DEBATE between people of opposing views? The bickering on this site is incredible. Can't every writer put forth their thoughts in an impassioned and well reasoned response to what are the same kind of articles? Did you ever hear of saying your piece and be done with it? You reduce the strength of your words whenever you attempt to not only shove your beliefs down someone's throat, but also to openly attack another because you simply don't agree with them. When you get lost in your nasty war of words you do nothing to educate others on your point of view and you loose sight of the idea being discussed. And you call yourselves intelligent!

45Cal

Talking under torture doesn't have anything to do with accepting an early release, which is the entire underlying issue here.


BrianR:
I know what the Code says but I am surprised by your comments. When I went to Vietnam (173rd Airborne Infantry) and later with the 82nd Airborne, I was told that everyone will talk under torture. They said to not even try to keep secrets from the enemy if captured to keep the torture down. Give them the information that they want. The Army will make any adjustments to keep the information from causing problems. If they want you to sign a statement of anything, do it. Apparently they didn't tell you the same thing.

Okay, Deadhead

I assume you also think that Kerry was a genuine hero in Nam, too, right? His "swiftboating" was unjustified, right? After all, he did have three Purple Hearts, right?

You'd better answer "yes", or you're a hypocrite on top of being a cretin.

Further, bonehead, I said not one thing about McCain's "courage". I never questioned that AT ALL, EVER.

I wrote that the labeling of him as a "hero" for merely carrying out his duty as defined by military regulations was unjustified.

Time for you to return to a remedial reading class.

little pettifogger


My remarks take only passing regard for your dumb attittude; I'm not being obtuse about this.

I say Kathleen Parker is perfectly entitled and at least editorially correct in praising the courage of our man McCain. Your views are merely pejorative and add nothing to the forum. For a perceived junkyard dog, Brian; you sure snap at the longest poles. Lol! Toothless wonder --Hahaha!

News ALERT


I just heard General Wesley Clark talk about John Kennedy, and Clark said,

"Well, I don't think riding in a little boat and getting sunk is a qualification to be president."


No, Deadhead

I'm not "technically" saying anything. And it doesn't matter whether I was shot down.

The facts and the Code simply ARE. They exist for everybody equally.

You continue to astound with the level of your obtuseness.

And you can certainly feel free to support McCain to your heart's content; good for you.

But his not taking early release is still not heroic, because it was simply a requirement UNDER MILITARY LAW.


Heroes and Candidates
There are many people who are heroes and there are many people who are losers and there are many people who lie or exaggerate about their heroism. McCain didn't say he was a hero. He said he served in the U.S. military and he was a POW. He followed the rules. You must stay and be tortured for your country when captured according to my fellow bloggers. How many people can withstand torture day after day after day and the loss of freedom only to be told that you're not a hero and your efforts to protect our freedom is unappreciated. Good grief, what more do you expect from men who are willing to fight for a country and suffered great pain while some fellow Americans sit back and criticize and tear down those who came back with physical and mental injuries. Some men and women died for our freedoms and never returned. They're all heroes and we shouldn't put down any American or foreign countryman who helped us during war time or who fought in our military against our enemies. What is a hero if it's not people who are willing to fight and die or be injured for our freedom and Judeo-Christian foundation? Wake up, America and support our troops and show respect for those who can still speak out and are attempting to deny us our First Amendment Rights even now.

nevertheless not for you to say


Dear Brian the Narcissist:

You're technically safe saying it was the Code; but since you weren't a POW or even shot down from the sky; much less tortured--

*Your say-so* is worth no more than Kathleen Parker's.

She is a McCain partisan, we surmise. Were you expecting her to applaud Chickensh!t Wes Clark for disparaging a great man?

Because until you show otherwise, McCain is a great man. He doesn't share all of your scruples, or brown-nose your claque in politics; but that won't make McCain undeserving of praise.

We will honor him and laud him but never brown-nose him; or anyone. Just as HE never has. We will do whatever we can to elect him POTUS . . .

You can keep your filthy vote.

.

InsightTruth, Danno

Damned good question, Insight.


I'll be more than happy to compare medals with you any time, Danno.




One more thing

McCain knows this just as well as I do and every other Vietnam veteran does.

So for him to bask in this false adulation without making this plain and simple fact clear -- as he does all the time -- speaks volumes about his lack of character.


BrianR:
Here's a serious question. It is obvious that you are better informed and vastly more articulate than most of the people you respond to; why do you bother?

BrianR
What is clear to me is that "I have flush more salt water under my a** than you have sailed across." You have no idea what it is to serve your country and putting on a uniform every morning is above and beyond the call of an average citizen.

Gordon, Danno

Gordon, I'd have added your name to that post if your comment had been up when I wrote it.

Danno, I spent a year humping a ruck in the mud in Nam; I'm underwhelmed by your "two engagements".

Further, you dolt, show me where I compared the Code of Conduct to a traffic ticket. Do you always make such idiotic statements, or are you experiencing a particularly brain-dead moment?

To the fools on this thread
JD's dumb son, Sam, Conor, goatlocker, Byler, eastlake joe, and Danno:

You flout your own complete ignorance. And it's truly pathetic, and clearly shows that you don't care about what's true or fact, if it refutes your dogma.

If you'll read my post, you'll see that I wrote that Parker's adulation was wrongly based on actions by McCain that were dictated by the Code of Honor, and NOT a personal choice as she incorrectly wrote. As Uncle Max said, the Code of Conduct was universally applicable to ALL servicemen under the UCMJ. McCain had no choice in the matter, unless he wanted to face court-martial, and that's just simply a fact, whether or not YOU like it.

Valor and heroism are defined as actions "above and beyond the call of duty".

The Code of Conduct DEFINES the call of duty under conditions of captivity. As a matter of fact, had McCain taken an early release, he would have been an abject coward, and that's just a fact whether or not YOU like it.

It's clear to me that none of you have ever served in combat.

Probably not even in uniform at all.

Reply to Brian
Sorry but your analysis is faulty. McCain was offered the opportunity to leave because he was an admiral's son. He refused. He could have walked and faced any consequences, court martial might be preferable to torture. Fact is he stayed.

Compare that to Obama's use of the people around him. Including his white grandmother, the racist. And his consistency with his positions.

News FLASH

I just heard General Wesley Clark talk about John Kennedy, and Clark said,

"Well, I don't think riding in a little boat and getting sunk is a qualification to be president."

Want more info on Clark?

Go read Tony Blankley's article on today's Townhall.

One of the many things that really puzzle me about Clark is his reticence about his service in Vietnam. After all, he DID receive a purple heart for the wounds he received. (And they were a LOT more serious than a small piece of shrapnel in the tush!)

Fred from CA and BrianR
Both of you must be complete idiots to sit from the comfort of your computers and compare following the Code of Conduct to obeying the speed limit posted on a highway. I served 20 years in the Navy and during that time, I was involved in two engagements while serving that I prayed I had the courage to uphold the Code of Conduct. Fortunately, they ended peacefully but I spend several days after each contemplating what it means to follow the Code of Conduct. It is easy to pass judgment from the sidelines but until you have been there “SHUT YOUR FACE.” BTW, any service member that has served their country is a hero to me.

Courage under Fire
Clark is a disgrace to the Army. I have wondered for many years how the Army let "that one" slip through the cracks. Why someone like Clark chose the Army for a career bumfuzzles me.

On another note and commentary on most of her article: How incredibly STUPID can the American people be, to wit, how many "SIGNALS" does Obama have to SEND to convey to the ordinary American hairball JUST WHAT HE IS!!??. Wright controversy, Michelle's famous remark, Obamas famous remarks about us poor white trash and our being enamored with the Bible and guns, his being raised in the largest Muslim country in the world, his grandfather and father too(?) being Muslim, etc. Now, Obama is showing signs of wanting to REINSTITUE Lyndon Johnson's Great Society FIASCO, and I'll bet you ten to one that (a WELFARE heaven) is precisely what the Commie twerp has in mind.

H.L. Mencken UNDERSTATED things re American intelligence, methinks, at least political intelligence(??). J. A. Johnson, MO

To You Dupes
Who think what McCain went through was just what was expected of him. I want you to try something. Take a broomstick, put it behind your legs and squat for 1 hour. repeat daily. after 30 days, come back and tell me the same. Another you might try is tying your hands behind your back, have someone hook your hands to a pulley in the ceiling and hoist till you are barely touching the floor with your feet. Now have them take a bamboo shaft and beat you with it. Again repeat daily. think you could withstand it? Be truthful now! He could have ended all this by leaving but didn't. Could you have said no? I doubt most of you could as you are nothing but political hacks who want to be-little what a very heroic man survived. Go back to huf-po and stay.

Comparison
The comparison between McCain and Obama regarding experience to qualify for Commander and Chief are absolutely ludicrous. Their simply isn't any comparison if you look at the facts. You have a military hero and vastly experienced senator and a freshman senator who hangs around with anti-american agitators to compare. The only thing Obama has going for him is a biased press who are willing to sell out this country to sell the trash the report.

Brian R.
You are right in your post of 12:24 a.m. - McCain was just doing what he was expected to do under the terms of the UCMJ.
What you failed to point out was that EVERY serviceman is expected to adhere to the UCMJ, which in turn means that servicemen and women are held to a higher standard than civilians.

svpallava

"Onageer's rear-end -- LOVE IT! I would, however, take it a step farther: onager's posterior fundament!

This is stupid!
Arguing about which of two supremely unqualified candidates is the least unqualified, is analogous to arguing which of two dead women would make the best wife.

It dose not matter! They are both the same.

JMO51
Obama's going to pass "tax cuts for the middle class"?? Super!!

Of course, when he keeps his promise to let the Bush tax cuts expire it will be a huge increase of taxes on the middle class. And perhaps he'll be different from Clinton, who promised middle class tax cuts but after he was elected--and though he worked harder on that than he'd ever worked in his life--gosh darn it, Bush I had left the books in much worse condition than Clinton knew and he just couldn't cut the taxes of the middle class. Oh well.

Campaign promises are sooo easily made, sooo very difficult to keep.

I just hope that John McCain can draw on his experience as a prisoner of war when he confronts the extremely hostile Democrat Congress.

JMO51:

Wonderful piece of satire! I didn't know there were people as good at it as you are. I laughed all the way through your comments about how Obama will fix the country. It is too bad that others don't realize that every one of those things have been tried unsuccessfully already by his friends. Who was it who said, "Doing the exact same thing over again and expecting different results is a sign of insanity"?

JMO51 - LOST IN SPACE

.....I am afraid dear fellow that you have been seduced by Bizarro Man and taken to Andromedia's black hole ...you are lost in an alternate universe in the Fifth Dimension ...
you must try to escape and return to the real world so that Dr. Strangeglove can take care of you ...

.....I have seen no evidence that Obama loves America ...on the contrary, everything he, and his associates have done indicates the opposite ...he plans to "CHANGE" America from a free Republic to a Socialist State ...

.....Obama is a clone of Vladimir Lenin and a sock puppet for George Soros ...and you are either a useful idiot or a faithful comrade .....COLOSSUS

JMO51....
What claptrap!

Hussein is a Marxist who has said he will raise taxes, not to increase government revenue (because it will reduce revenues), but for "fairness." "Fairness" to Hussein is, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That is right out of the playbook of the left wingnuts.

Hussein and his wife are both militant racists and were quite happy with Rev Wrong until a bright light illuminated that dark, pun intended, corner where the cockroaches roam.

Hussein does want change--to socialism and communism. He thinks it hasn't worked before because he wasn't in charge.

Did you read this morning that Hussein got a sweetheart deal from his mortgage company? So much for integrity and honor. Wait! Clinton showed that was not important to the lefties!

JMO51
Most of us have come to understand "swift-boating" to mean "telling the truth." And we await John Kerry's release of those military records that he assures us will prove the lies of the swift boaters. 'Til then....

On the other hand, I assume you are in possession of proof that all those television ads were lies. I suggest you contact T. Boone Pickens with your proof so that you may collect the $1,000,000 reward he has offered to anyone who can prove anything in those ads was a lie.

Wes Clark
Wes Clark, The Supreme Jerk, has`always come across the screen as egocentric and self promoting. This is the type of jerk Obama will have in his cabinet, maybe as Sec. of Defense.
Be careful of what you vote for. Some "Change" can be lethal.

Obama's Qualification
I would like to ask Wesley Clark where Obama got executive experience or qualifications to be president. Was it from 20 years in a church that condemns this great country? Was it as a community activist? Was it from being a state legislator? Or was it from being a brief U S Senator? The question at hand is does John McCain or Barack Obama have the best qualifications to be President of the United States of America.

Retired Geek
Obama loves this country. When he is president he will fix the messes left by our frat boy President. He will focus onr efforts on the real enemies and capture Bin Ladin. He will make American healthy again by focusing on our infrastruture. He will make our economy strong by providing a market based approach to universal healthcare. He will develop a comprehensive energy policy which will lead to real independence from foreign oil and international oil shocks. He will take care of our vets and in the process strenthen our military. He will eliminate no bid contracts and insure that we get good value for our investment in military hardware.

He will provide a middle class tax cut that mustly go into the hands of working people as opposed to the trust fund bunnies.




Swift Boat
The right invented the swift boats. Now it may come back to haunt their candidate. I was offended at the attacks on John Kerry and equally offended at attacks on John McCain even if they are preceeded by with all due respects to his service.

There are a lot of reasons that I son't like John McCain his military service is not one of them.

whenever Rush Limbaugh mentions
John Lurch Kerry, he says that he served in vietnam. What he doesn't say is, "on whose side?". Lurch spent more time working for the viet Cong, making his propaganda movie in the senate and as a viet cong agent at the Paris peacs talks, than he did as a U.S. Naval officer (3 or 4 months?).

Retired Geek #20: The answer to your question, "What are Americans who wish America harm...? is TRAITORS WHO SHOULD RECEIVE THE MAXIMUM PUNISHMENT PROVIDED BY LAW.

Klintonista General Clark
Wes Clark was a Clinton general as opposed to a real warrior. There are other fruit-loops like USAF general McPeak who designed a star-wars/Idi Amin nautical uniform that was cashiered when he bit the bullet. Then there's Army General Shalikashvili who decided later that homosexuals would be good for the military. God know what breed of generals president Yobomba will create.

Clark almost started a world war in the Bosnia action and would have attacked the Russians if a much smarter and one star less Brit had not told Wes to jam it.

Wes is a wuss,a sychophant first class. A brown-noser par excellence. He couldn't whip s*** with an egg-beater.

His opinions are worth less that Veep John Nance Garner's "bucket of warm spit" thought it was later said that the veep didn't say spit, but another 4-letter word ending in "it."

There are many reasons...
...to view John McCain's military record with skepticism. There is no skill or courage involved in getting shot down. The opposite is more likely. McCain seems to have been a mediocre pilot at best. There are also conflicting reports regarding McCain's comportment while a POW. I don't know whether he is a hero or not. I tend to think not, but I allow for the possibility.

What we do know, because it is well documented and unobscured by the fog of war, is that McCain's private life and political career has been marked by unprincipled cowardice. Every substantive piece of legislation that bears his name violates the Constitution, and betrays his constituency.

His "maverick" status arises more from childlike recalcitrance, than from steadfast commitment to principle. He is not fierce in the defence of Constitutional ideals, but throws infantile tantrums when challenged.

There is more, but what's the point. McCain's defenders are beyond being reasoned with. In many cases those that post on TH display many of the same juvenile character traits that McCain does.

To those who recognize McCain as ignoble, and base, take heart, he will lose in November. Even his fellow political cowards admit in one fashion or another that they must compromise there convictions to support his candidacy. And, the collection of crossover dems, liberal leaning independents, and leftist media mavens, that propelled him to the status of presumptive nominee will not vote for him in the general election. All ye who support McCain, abandon hope.

Courage Under Fire
While retired Gen. Clark is the disturbed feckless misguided illogical partisan extreme left-wing attack badger who appears on national media and spits out gibberish without a grain of common sense or thought, the Social Fascists whose corner he currently occupies, is all over spreading the bull about the qualifications of the part time, short time, Ill. Senator who himself demonstrates a clear ability to "swing-in-the-wind" with whatever is todays favorite agenda item.
While it's obvious that Clark, like McCain, has also served as a patriot, it's blatantly apparent that he's suffering from the same dementia that affects patriot Kerry: arrogance and self-importance. They're both so into themselves that they are disconnected from everyday society. And, as stated earlier, he is jealous. Clark is using his military credentials to win friends and influence enemies. Why wasn't it just last week when he embraced HRC?
Clark has a terrific track record: Media Darling for every left leaning media outlet that cares to indulge his misguided left-wing attacks. Bring him on anytime, the General Benedict Arnold of our time...
Lucky for the nation that these diseased veterans were found-out before being were allowed to do any great national damage. Hopefully, the New England crowd will wakeup and oust Heinz-Kerry someday soon.
And as far as Clark goes, his name is really Weaselly.

Wesley Clark
Wesley Clark was "relieved" of his command -- in other words he was fired. He is a wimp. What we do not need is another Kerry. This guy is pathetic. Now he is an Obama "surrogate." Show me your friends and supporters and -- in spite of the messiah complex, Obama reveals himself by those who support and surround him.

The American Patriot
The American Patriot to me is one who loves their Country and wish America no harm for any reason.

The American Patriot is male, female and children of every nationality, race, ethnic background and religion who wish America no harm for any reason.

The American Patriot are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom who wish America no harm.

The American Patriot ia proud of their flag and the Statue of Liberty which "welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed" and wishes America no harm.

The American Patriot takes pride in the greatest Warriors in the history of man - the American Soldier and wish America no harm.

The American Patriot lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness and the right to self determination and wish America no harm.

What are Americans who wish America harm for whatever reason? Those who want Obama elected to weaken this great Country and teach Americans a lesson?

America is in one of the most dangerous times in our history, a time when crazed glassy eyed extremists are creating nuclear weapons and have stated America will be destroyed.

Many Americans have stated that after 4 or 8 years of Obama maybe Americans will learn a political lesson.

John McCain will defend America until we can change politically. After Obama there may not be an America - this is 2008 not pre Reagan times.

God Bless America and its' Patriots!


Clark: Obama team player?
Does anyone really think that Obama didn’t know Clark was going to go off on McCain?

I find it curious that Clark decides this week--- running up to July 4th--- to attack McCain’s judgment vis a vis his military experience.
I don’t believe Clark is a patsy. He is not a stupid man.

Maybe the Obama managers prepared Clark's talking points and he agreed to be the messenger, albeit the best messenger Obama’s managers could have hoped for (a decorated military general).

Consider this: If Clark was candidly told that he was no longer on the short-list for VP, but was told he is still very valuable to Obama, and if he played along and agreed to be the mouthpiece for something Obama himself could not say directly to McCain, that there would be “rewards” down the road in an Obama administration.

When the Clark comments came out in the media, it allowed Obama to feign insult to his own patriotism and go before the media swaddled in a platoon of American Flags where he proceeded to defend his own patriotism.

I think Obama will lie low, according to plans, and then on July 4th, with cameras rolling, Obama will come out (flanked by a battalion of American flags) and publicly denounce Clark and his comments.

This issue serves Obama well, as he will have deflected the issue of his own lack of military experience while simultaneously taking the spotlight off McCain.

McCain is a patriot and he has earned the right to participate in and preside over July 4th parades where Americans celebrate and thank those who unselfishly served this great country to secure the freedoms we now enjoy.

Obama doesn't have that right. Although one option would be that he could ride on a parade float in his Chicago district surrounded by comrades like Wright, Rezco, Ayers, Pfleger, and point to his flag pin as proof he is patriotic.

For Gretchen (#15, 17)
Basically Wesley Who appears to be the model for the following poster(s)--noting that they may be aliases of the same onager's back-end:
(1) wobbie the wagpicker (my term, as he recycles so many of his debunked claims)
(2) Hal Donkeyhue
(3) Kimberley

(note: an onager is an untameable Asiatic animal which strongly resembles a donkey on steroids)

P.O.W. by Hubbell
I suggest reading this book published by Reader's Digest to appreciate what all the POWs endured in North Vietnam.
McCain is mentioned briefly and it was written shortly after they all returned.
What the public and press did to Adm. James Stockdale suggests to me the people of the USA do not deserve such men.

Oops!

that should have been "fundament."

A John Kerry Clone
Wesley Clark seems to be a clone of John Kerry. The whining,and posturing of this kind of man is almost unbearable.

John McCain is not my first choice to be President, although he has my vote.

He is a loyal American, a veteran in high standing. He has served in the Senate for many years. In his younger days after his release from from a POW Camp he led a self centered life. He's made up for that over and over again.

Barack Obama from his early years consorted with professed communists, leftist radicals, and racists. Now he is moving to the CENTER to win the election. Good grief can the American voter really be stupid enough to fall for this and vote for him?

And...

the military service that qualifies Barak Hussein Obama for the position of Commander-in Chief is...?

Wes clark is an idiot! (Actually, he's a posterior findament!)

For McCain: Service and Courage
We can talk about the meaning of John McCain's wartime service because he was and is a patriot who did serve as a combat naval aviator in a theatre of operations over North Vietnam, which had one of the toughest air defenses in history. The day John McCain was shot down, he took off from a carrier and flew his jet over Hanoi where he bombed a power plant, after which he was shot down by a surface to air missile and nearly died when he bailed out. Thereafter, he spent years as a prisoner of war, enduring real torture, such as having his arms broken and then being hung by those arms so he could be beaten by North Vietnamese who knew who his father was: Navy Admiral McCain was CinCPac and had major responsibilities in running the Vietnam War.

To patriots, John McCain's story is one of service and courage. Yet, some of you write that John McCain merely did what was required by the Code of Conduct. Some merely: keep in mind that John McCain volunteered to put himself in the position of being subject to the Code of Conduct and what courage that meant in the circumstances of a combat naval aviator and prisoner of war in the Vietnam War.

Today, John McCain is a pro-life fiscal conservative who is committed to nominating strict constructionist judges and who has decades of experience in Congress dealing with foreign policy, military matters and national security; John McCain was right about the Iraq War, which can rightly be seen as a test of decision-making; John McCain has been by far the most qualified of all the candidates to be Commander in Chief; John McCain's books about character and courage are gems. It is a very stupid betrayal of conservatism not to be fully supporting John McCain over Barack Obama, a slick talking left wing attorney with radical ties, no military experience and indeed little experience of any kind.

When JD's Son Attacks
Impressive putdown on BrianR. Good work. I got a little torqued reading his crapola, too.

But I am more disgusted with Wes Clark.

Now there's a backstabbing, grandstanding, weasel of a politician if I ever saw one. What's up with Arkansas? Is there something in the water?

In my twenty years service, I saw a handful of slippery political types like Clark climb the ladder to flag rank. But thank goodness there are plenty more leaders with integrity to balance out the likes of him.

Clark reminds me more of John Edwards than John McCain. An opportunistic, shameless demagogue (and those are his better qualities).

Have any of you *McLame* babies
checked out what McCain did after he was released by his captors? No? Well, I guess you were too busy chanting, or whining about gas prices, or demanding that the government hold a gun on your university and demand that it charge you only what you feel like paying.

Read the full story of McCains military service and then compare it to what the Obamanation brings to the table.

George on Wesley and John
I fully agree with Ms. Parker's bottom-line, the "foxhole test."

On the other hand, watching General Wesley Clark on TV last weekend brought to mind something General George S. Patton once said:

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack."

###

George on Wesley and John
I fully agree with Ms. Parker's bottom-line, the "foxhole test."

On the other hand, watching General Wesley Clark on TV last weekend brought to mind something General George S. Patton once said:

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack."

###

no offense
to BrianR but sometimes the things you are expected to do and that many others would not do does make you a hero. McCain could have easily walked out and refused to do so, that's the point. And a court martial seems very tame compared to what he went through after he refused. He could have easily used his family brass to avoid a court martial.

So I think your argument is very lame.

if jail is a recommendation...
we have an entirely new way to judge at least one apect of the character traits we wish to measure in out candidates for president as i understand it it seems that jail is jail. one i spretty much the same asthe other. same confinement , same loss of the real world and creation of a new one. ame amunt of what social scientists call,transient homosexual behavior, somethuing we know is rampent in jailamong americans in civilian jails. and who ever knows in militarty prisons although i understnd it has ben jknown to happen to military prisoners in mlutary prison in the unitd atstes, same clustering into gangs , you know the drill same cruelty by both guards and amongst prisoners,
. with all the similaritite especially one more ,the need to display courage while in prison facing all the anxieties you willl face. if there are truly some of the true qualities we can wish for in out candidates perhaps we should reconsider wher we hold our national party conventions.

Fred and BrianR, Spare Me
In comparisons of courage, don't make me laugh. Obama was an active member in a racist, hateful, anti-American church that most Christians would not characterize as Christian and he didn't have the stones to confront that foul-mouthed bully of a pastor about the poison he was planting in the hearts and minds of those congregants. And the thing is that Obama wasn't merely afraid of Wright, he allowed that clown to contine in his demagoguery merely so he could build a core constituency.

Obama's conduct all the time he attended that church marks him as a coward of the highest order.

Obama is a coward
As a disabled veteran, I take umbrage at Team Obama (Wes Clark is on the team) denigrating the service of a man that gave so much for his country, including over 5 years of torture and privation! How dare they! Senator Obama never saw fit to wear the uniform of this great nation, and I'm not so sure he even registered for Selective Service, as he was required to do, being a male born after December 31, 1959. Please, if there is a major blogger or journalist reading these words, look into whether he registered for Selective Service. http://www.sss.gov

How a person that a few years ago was a part-time state senator can now be considered qualified for the presidency is beyond my imagination!!

McCain "hero" status.
Brian is absolutely right: McCain was forbidden by Article 3 of the Code of Conduct from accepting repatriation out of sequence. It amazes me that more commentators don't realize that simple fact. I can see no basis on why he should be considered a hero than most other POWs, other than surviving. Manyw who were tortured DID NOT make propaganda statements as he did. It's kind of spooky that so much of how he represents himself is based on events of 40 years ago.

On McCain and Brian
Americans don't care about McCain's, or anyone else's, bravery. They want celebrity, a cheap guy in a cool suit. This is the American idol generation. They couldn't name the three branches of government, believe that America was founded in January, 1993 when Clinton took office, and they get to vote. And they vote for whomever the Hollywood stars tell them to vote for.

And imagine that somehow a guy got four stars who believes that such an evil moron socialist like Hillary Clinton was the best we could do for the president. And he mocks McCain's sacrifice on nationwide TV. Thanks for supporting the troops, Wes.

Brian, you unbelievable idiot. You ho hum McCain's five year ordeal as if you could have done the same, you titless REMF. What were you, permanent KP at the O club in Vung Tau?

Sorry, Kathleen, obviously you're

ignorant of the Code of Conduct operative at the time.

You: "He's a hero because he declined an offer by his captors to be released, refusing to leave his fellow Americans behind."

Wrong. Under the Code during the Vietnam War, where I served, one was explicitly forbidden from accepting such a release. Had McCain accepted it, he would have been subject to court-martial upon his return.

So... all he did was what he was not only expected to do, but what he was obligated and ordered to do.


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