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Friday, December 07, 2007
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
One Nation Under Mitt
by Kathleen Parker
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WASHINGTON -- Voters may not know any more about Mormonism than they did before Mitt Romney's faith speech on Thursday, but they surely know more about what it means to be an American.

Romney's much-anticipated address from the George H.W. Bush library at Texas A&M reminded Americans of some fundamental truths that often get lost in the guerrilla warfare of presidential politics.

He made two important points clear: Freedom and religious liberty are inextricably linked. And, though Romney's religion informs his life, leaders of his church will not inform his decisions as president.

That second statement is essentially a reiteration of John F. Kennedy's speech nearly 50 years ago when he had to assuage voters' fears that he would be taking orders from the pope. Like Kennedy, Romney said his commitment is to the rule of law and the Constitution.

If Kennedy's speech was an important landmark in American political history, Romney's was surpassing. With heartfelt humility and poetic eloquence, he tracked the nation's struggle with and for freedom.

He held up a mirror and, for the first time in a long while, Americans did not have to avert their gaze. They could see themselves reflected and be both proud and humbled by their country's unique beauty.

That may be the most valuable result of Romney's speech. He raised the bar by focusing on broad principles of religious freedom, rather than on the small details of doctrinal differences. In the process, he elevated everyone -- even those not-so-deserving.

Disappointing many, no doubt, Romney steered clear of the details of Mormon belief and deprived the boxers-or-briefs crowd an answer to the Mormon undergarment question. This was smart for Romney, but it was also a gift to the American people -- a gesture of mutual respect.

Where does one begin to defend one's religious faith, anyway? And where does anyone draw the line? No religion can bear close scrutiny if we go literal. Who among Christians wants to explain the Immaculate Conception? A talking snake? The rather peculiar ritual of "grokking" Jesus by eating stale wafers and sipping cheap wine?

Romney effectively neutralized these questions with his recognition that all religions have their curiosities as well as their wonders. In a nod toward pluralism, Romney noted the things he loves about other religions -- "the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims."

Romney also smartly asserted commitment to his own beliefs, including that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Unapologetically, Romney said he wouldn't disavow the faith of his fathers and if his campaign for president fails because of it, then "so be it."

But why should he or anyone disavow his faith to run for president? How did that idea ever gain entry into the political arena of a country founded on the idea of religious liberty? Didn't the earliest Americans die to secure that proposition and to codify it into law?

Romney's clear attempt to assuage evangelical Christians that he and they are on the same page, if not always on the same scripture, may not satisfy some in the born-again camp. But those who resist Romney's higher calling to true religious liberty might profit from a moment of introspection.

Who is to judge another's faith? And by what standard has Romney's religion failed in guiding what has clearly been an exemplary life?

The religious questions raised by Romney's candidacy have intersected (by grace, some would say) with a time when Americans needed to review their nation's founding principles and, in Romney's words, appreciate "the profound implications of our tradition of religious liberty."

As radical Islam seeks to impose theocratic tyranny -- to convert by conquest -- Americans can be grateful that, as Romney put it, reason and religion are allies in this country. But that relationship has always been a fragile marriage and this presidential election seems to be testing our resolve.

Perhaps it took someone more recently persecuted for his beliefs to remind us that "religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree."

Indeed.

Or, as they say, amen.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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Elevating
Romney's speech was a lesson in both history and tolerance. He did not go into the details of Mormonism, and then explained why it was unnecessary in a most eloquent manner. Very impressive!

Parker ridicules Christians
Check out what romney backer, Kathleen Parker had to say about Christian communion in this column:

"Who among Christians wants to explain ...The rather peculiar ritual of "grokking" Jesus by eating stale wafers and sipping cheap wine? "


"Peculiar ritual?" "Grokking Jesus with stale wafers and cheap wine"?

Utterly disgusting! These TH Romney backers once again show their contempt for evangelical Christians and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Absurd
Kathleen writes:

WASHINGTON -- Voters may not know any more about Mormonism than they did before Mitt Romney's faith speech on Thursday, but they surely know more about what it means to be an American.
------
Since when have Americans needed an education on slick politicians?

I got a dollar I can send him to buy some cheap oil to keep his hair greased.

If it were not for politics the guy would make a heck of a good actor, or carnival worker.

He knows the right words ok, its just the little matter of his socialism that should have peoples attention.
Guess that is just a forgotten enemy of America of today.

Besides, any old salesman looks good up next to Rudy or Huckabee

Hunter/Tancredo/Paul
The only real people running
The disgust with politics gets worse reading "conservatives" views.

Even Buchanan is singing praise over this guys speech.
Wonder when deeds lost out to words, and stopped being what people are judged by.
ya know that one about "know them by their fruit".
Maybe Hilliary will let him be her VP, they work for the same objectives anyway.

Here it comes, Hilliarycare.

flopped his speech and flipped his views
romney's speech did nothing to address the concerns evangelical Christians have about the bizarre beliefs of the mormon cult, and the lack of judgement and discernment necessary to believe such ridiculous fables. The Book of mormon reads like something out of Grimm's Fairy Tales.

I will not be voting for Mitt for the same reasons I would not vote for a Wiccan, a Voodoo practitioner, a Muslim, or a person who believes he has been abducted by Aliens.

Why? Because any man who could believe all this, and not intellectually question it
is not someone who has the judgment necessary to be President of this nation in a time of crisis.

Read Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults for a revealing expose of this bizarre religion.

See http://www.waltermartin.org/whatsnew.html

RE his flip flops:

As a 1994 U.S. Senate candidate, he said he had believed for nearly a quarter century that abortion should be "safe and legal."

Yet by 2001, the Salt Lake City Tribune quoted him as saying, "I do not wish to be labeled pro-choice."

A year later, running for governor in Massachusetts, Romney was definitely Pro-choice and promised he would not touch any abortion law. During a candidate's debate, he was so firmly Pro-choice, he renounced an endorsement from Massachusetts' Citizens for Life.

But, last year in South Carolina, a modern day miracle occurred. Romney declared, "I am firmly Pro-life...I was always for life."

Yeah, right, if you buy that you will probably also buy his "I am a lifelong hunter lie, and his bogus federal mandatory universal health care fraud.




If only
he talked about freedom from invasion from neighboring countries (freedom from other governments), freedom from our goververnment, as much as he talked about his freedom to be a Mormon, I might actually consider voteing for him.
Key word might

Christians vs Christians
Forget Islamic terrorism--this Christian against Christian tug of war so close to Xmas is just too funny for words.

Home Run on this speech.
An excellent discussion of the appropriate interface of religion and government in our great nation.

How can this man not become our President. He looked and seems born for such leadership.

Watch the speech here:

http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/2007/12/speech.html

A race-changing day of enlightenment.

Great Speech, Doesn't Matter
Great Speech but it doesn't really matter. Huckabee's momentum is becoming nearly unstoppable. Don't blame it on bigotry towards Romney's Mormonism - it's just that Huckabee's positive message and vision for America is connecting with ordinary Americans. People really like Mike, but they also trust him.

http://www.mikehuckabee.com

Mitt and God

I am an Atheist and found his speech interesting. I can't figure out why people get so hung up on what other people believe.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims fight over who has the best vision of some invisible friend in the sky!

Then we fight over the best political party and the best system of government and the best baseball team. I think we really really really like to fight!

Good
Good speech, well presented, good man, solid family.
Good ideas, good manager, clear thinker.
Straight talker, maybe straighter even than Huckabee.

One Nation Under Mitt
Ungovernor Romney was an absentee landlord in Massachusetts. He set no examples for diligence as governor. He spent fifteen minutes appointing a judge who later released a convicted murder without bail and who subsequently fled the jurisdiction and killed two young people. He was too busy badmouthing his state in an effort to burnish his credentials and, in the process, spent less time in his office than the cleaning lady.

In addition, his failure to oversee the people putting the final touches on the $16 billion "Big Dig" resulted in negligence which led to the death of a woman hit by a chunk of concrete that fell from the ceiling of a tunnel.

True, he tells huge lies on subjects like abortion, gun control and illegal immigrants, and it's true he has no real experience with international politics, but he can try to bamboozle the American public into thinking a vote for anyone but him is a vote for bigotry. Puhleeze.

He is trying very hard to live his father's dream of becoming president. So was Gore. Hillary is trying to redeem the family name. Isn't it time to get someone real?

The only sincere thing about Romney is his belief in the stupidity of the American voter.

Cornpone Humphrey is at it again
Isn't hate a wonderful thing. It lifts and elevates and encourages and enlightens. NOT! However, Mitt Romney's speech did all of the above. By their fruits you will know them!

BELIEF BEGETS BEHAVIOR
Kathleen Parker writes: "He made two important points clear: Freedom and religious liberty are inextricably linked. And, though Romney's religion informs his life, leaders of his church will not inform his decisions as president."

Parker writes well - she is concise, clear and compelling. However ...

If it is true that, "Belief Begets Behavior," then for those of us who understand deeply that our private beliefs informed by a vibrant, vital and valued relationship with GOD (notice the absence of the word "religion") impacts the public policies we may be elected to legislate, adjudicate and presidentially propose.

I hope that throughout Romney's career as a public servant and as a candidate for many offices that he has not intentionally included on his "policy & management" staff other Mormons. Why? Because it is a back door mechanism for his bizarre religion to inform, influence and instruct policy.

Angels of light, like lucifer-satan-Moroni, frankly can not be trusted, however presidentially dressed up. Yes, it was a masterful moving momentous speech. It does not remove the core political question: "Who gets what, when, where, why and how" if the flip-flop-flip Romney becomes POTUS?"

"River Rising Review - The Venue for Vision and Values in Our Communities" has created Four Friendly Forums For you ... join us at EUKEL.us


disenchanted
From the excerpts I have read, it sounded like an excellent speech, but after the Bush betrayal of his fellow Americans, I can not find a politician that I can believe in. Bush's kissing up to the Democrats, not securing our borders, his betrayal of Israel and involving us in an endless war has left me totally disenchanted with the Republican Party and all politicians. All politicians are liars, when they are not kissing babies, they are stealing their lollipops. Words come easy especially when they're writen by talented speech-writers.

Mitt Romney is no JFK:Earth to Kathleen
These are dark days with no shining lights on tap for 11.2008. So, Ms. Parker is forgiven for succumbing to a pretty boy delivering a very weak speech; even forgiven the omission of the only line worthy of discussion---freedom requires religious tolerance or some such.

No offense taken at the obligatory jabs at the uniquely peculiar aspects of Catholicism though Walker Percy would enjoy schooling Ms. Parker in the oddities she mentioned. No problemos. Catholics couldn't care less about such Protest-ant drivel. Fortunately, Catholics pay no attention to the religious intolerance shown toward Catholicism. We can't insult Muslims without fear hysterical violent demonstrations around the globe, and targeted terrorist attacks. The NYT, ADL, and Jews everywhere get points for being less prone to violent reprisals but lose them for all their whining.

Kathleen, a humble request I submit to thee. Put aside your distaste for Brother Biden---an Irish Catholic Democrat. Even the talking heads admit he is better prepared than all the Democrats combined (save Dodd)to lead us through the geopolitical minefields awaiting the mediocre soul sworn in on that fast approaching chilly day in 1.2009.

He studied RFK. He and Chuck Hagel are buddies--that tells you something.

No matter who gets elected, the plan is to tap Biden for Secretary of State. Who knows, maybe this is as it should be. We need an Irish Catholic to represent the USA after Clinton the coward and bravado boy Bush.

My father helped get Biden in the Senate. My grandmother made me watch William F. Buckley telling me why she became a Republican--"There is a difference". My grandmother saw something in Biden. That's good enough for me. She would have loved you !

Kathleen, we need you with feet firmly rooted in Mother Earth. Please no more googly eyes over Mitt.


Truly a home run for Mitt Romney!
Earth to Vitae! Did you watch the same speech I did? Mitt Romney abolutely hit a home run with the two opposing premises, why religion matters and why it doesn't matter. Any posters who have not seen this speech should go to Mitt Romney's website and watch it in it's entirety. It was simply masterfully written and delivered!

NSD, so he delivered a fine speech
Big deal, that is what politicians do (unless you are named Bush). Herb has the best take on Romney of the posts so far. This guy can't be trusted. He is as slick as Willy is, but not nearly as bad.

The race hasn't really started yet, and many are trying to declare their favorite the natural shoe-in. Don't buy the Huckabee crap either, his record speaks volumes as to his "conservative" principles.

A vote in the primary for Hunter or Thompson can go a long way toward sending the correct message to the RNC that we won't be dictated to as to who is "electable". The last "electable" republican lost as almost all of them do. Only a true conservative republican can win. So lets nominate one!

President, not King
Most of the hand-wringing over who is president seems a a waste of effort to me. The office of president has very little essential unless the occupier has great political savvy. Even in choosing judges, he is limited by the senate confirmation process. He cannot go to war without congress, he cannot make law. He is an EXECUTOR not a LEGISLATOR.

I am not so naive to think the office cannot provide a man a platform for great power if he know how to use (abuse) it. But, it seems to me that he can abuse only with our permission.

So, whether he is mormon, prostestant, catholic, jew or whatever is of little consequence except as his choice of faith reveals a lack of judgment. But KP well pointed out that there are elements of every religion that appear bizarre and ridiculous to non-believers. Yet the believers of these religions appear to be otherwise normal people.

I truth, no one running in either party impresses me - and maybe that's good. As one contemporary christian singer put it, "There'll never be a savior on capital hill." So let us quit looking for one.

To talent scout
Re "Since when have Americans needed an education on slick politicians?": Amen.

Romney is the very slickest of slick operators and he's got slick speech-writers and handlers. An American public, trained now for sixty years to respond positively to TV commercials, will probably respond to Mitt Romney by electing him president. They will get what they got last night: a polished surface. The dark underside will be cleverly concealed.

Right now we have a nation full of surprised people saying, "But we elected a born-again Christian! How can we possibly be getting illegal immigrants, torture, and a 9-trillion-dollar deficit?" In another seven years we could be saying, "But we elected such a handsome, well-spoken, Mormon-family-values, rich businessman! How is it possible he isn't being straight with us?"

So, ask some questions. This man has five grown sons. Shouldn't even one of them be in Iraq? This man was supposed to explain Mormonism to us. Did he, or did he distill out the parts he wants us to know? This man has changed his position on every major issue. Were these switcheroos made for political expedience?

I am less concerned that Mitt Romney is a Mormon than I am that he is a successful con-man. He makes me feel as if I just swallowed a pint of Mazola oil.

Same Romney
just a different day. His record is nothing of a republican and certainly has nothing in common with being a conservative, or at the least what it used to mean.

The real question is, why is he and Rudy even in the party and why is the GOP, MSM and neocons supporting them. Both of these men have horrible records in regards to republican principles and both are touted as the golden boys.

I think you have to be extremely idiotic to support either, unless of course if you are a social democrat, in the guise of a republican.

The one reason of support, that is said over and over, is look at what a great business man Romney is, look at what he did at the Olympics, etc. So what.

The mens record is what I care about while in office and what they are ultimately responsible for, while in office and both Romney and Rudy are socialists, as their record plainly screams.

Why should any republican even give it a second thought, to support them?

One last thing, for those who will say, don't judge them, for you know not what is in their heart. I say, many people are judged daily and go to jail for their actions and most assuredly their record.

Romney's Speech
I read the entire text of Romney's speech and I was impressed. It is about time someone spoke up about the founding of this country, who did it, why and how much religion played a part in it.
I am sick and tired of these clowns that run around trying to rip down national symbols such as "In God We Trust" from everything...or trying to get people to say Happy Holiday instead of Merry Christmas. I may or may not support Romney, but at least he has the guts to stand up
and say something intelligent. Won't hear it from the screecher Hillary or Isama O'bama.
My support goes to the candidate that closes the border, enforces immigration laws, reverses the socialism path and shrinks or at the least, halts the growth of Govt.

Nonetheless, I praise Romney for his speech!

I SAY AGAIN
I do NOT care what religion you claim to be or practice, I do not want any part of any RINO! I want someone who will close off our borders and secure this country FIRST! And I do not believe for one second that includes either Mittary or rudary!
http://judicialwatch.org/blog/islamic-terrorists-arrested- u-s-mexico-border

http://judicialwatch.org/http%3A//www.corruptionchronicles. com/2007/05/illegal_immigrants_helped_plan.html


Free Ramos and Compean
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just won’t matter!
Hunter/Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com
http://www.ontheissues.org/Duncan_Hunter.htm
Hunter’s best quote: Move away from the Ted Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Jun 2007)
To libs there is no lie, it is expedient exaggeration!

Nobody Here But Us Non-Mormons
I wasn't free last night to watch Romney's speech, but my morning paper tells me he used the word "Mormon" only once. Shall we all wonder why?

Romney speech
Those who think Romney's religion is a cult should not be thin skinned at KP's comparison of a Christian sacrament to a religious cult in one of Heinlein's scifi novels. The secularists think all religions are cults and don't trust any of us who believe such foolishness. So who is going to be the electable conservative standard bearer? So far our choices include one whose religion many think a cult and one adulterous maybe-Catholic, both flipfloppers on guns and abortion. We have an actor who was lackluster in Congress, a Baptist minister with the tendency to tax as governor, a Congressman right on one issue but silent on too many, a Libertarian not necessarily worried about terrorism. The choices of politics are always a compromise of ideals and electable realities. If we don't all get behind the same person, we elect Hillary by default.

John
Adding the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was not done by our Founding Fathers. It was done by President Eisenhower during the merry years of McCarthyianism. I understand that last night Romney did not make this clear to his viewers.

Do you know why your ancestors came to America? I can tell you that my French Protestant (Huguenot) ancestors came here to escape the French church, which had put out a contract on them in France. My Irish Wesleyan Methodist ancestors came here because the Irish church declared all their wives whores and all their children b******* (townhall won't allow word)---marriages performed in Methodist church were illegal. My Quaker ancestors came here because good Church of England folk were beating them up and burning down their houses. My Baptist ancestors came here because the German and Swiss churches declared them un-Christian ("anabaptists").

With a history like this, folks would NEVER have agreed to found a nation with a state religion---they crossed three thousand miles of open ocean in small wooden ships to GET AWAY FROM state religion. And BTW so-called historian Dave Barton has been exposed as a charlatan who admits having fabricated and distorted "quotations" by our Founding Fathers.

NSD
My hat is off to you because truly you are an admirer of the verbal arts. May I recommend other examples that you will enjoy: the Viagra and Cialis commercials that run every evening on the ABC Evening News.

Can't have a great speech when you have
an utterance this inaccurate: "Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom."

That's downright moronic.

Freedom without religion: all of Scandinavia, just for a quick start (best countries on earth at the moment)

Religion without freedom: Saudi Arabia, just for an easy starter.

An American Tradition
Romney was advancing a real american tradition with his speech, the attempt to open the door just wide enough to let oneself in, while keeping others out.

With ethnicity the push was always to make "white" wide enough to stay on top, so the Italians and Irish and Jews counted when blacks began to flex political muscle, but not before.

Romney's principle that religious tenets should not be the fodder of campaigns only extended to those tenets that separate him from traditional christianity. But they ran out at the point that he discussed Jesus exactly as far as Mormonism agrees with traditional christianity.

And of course atheists, hindus and buddhists remain the them who do not properly understand freedom. So the "please I want to be one of the cool kids" tradition goes on.

Kennedy's speech did not have this limitation.

lilly in the hindsight trap
lilly - you manifest 2 key shortfalls of modern liberalism: (1) judge yesterday's events by today's standards, and (2) compare the USA to your vision of utopia and not the reality of other nations.



cornpone harry
Have you read anything not Anti-Mormon in your life? You obviously do not know the first thing about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I suggest you do some studying before you going claiming it a cult.

There are some things I do not agree with Mitt on, but that was a great speech and I think he is by far the best running.

Book of Mormon is an Obvious Hoax
Nice try, Mitt. Insist that theology doesn't matter, but BTW, I think Jesus is the Son of God and He died to forgive my sins. That's not theology, right? B. S. My problem isn't theological. It is history. The Mormon religion was invented in the 1830's by a conman named Joseph Smith. Look up his name in wikipedia, hardly a bastion of fundamental Christianity. The Book of Mormon teaches that the ancient Hebrews came to America by boat, the continent was empty, and became the ancestors of all American Indians. Archeology, Linquistics and DNA studies all PROVE beyond any reasonable doubt that NONE of this is remotely true. A bunch of uneducated people 170 years ago I can understand, but any person who claims to believe it today is either a liar or an idiot. An idiot cannot be in control of our army and our foreign policy. If he was a member of the Church of the Sub-Genius and prayed to Bob, would that be off limits?

So Sad
Won't it be wonderful if pastors stood in front of their congregations and talked about the great things Jesus Christ has done rather than spread LIES about what Mormons and others believe.

Evangelicals will talk all day long about love and grace. Then they turn around and spit in the face of anyone who doesn't think like them. Let me sum it up for you.

-- You are in a cult unless you follow the creeds of my congregation
-- You are not a Christian unless you share the same exact theology of Christ that I do
-- You are not a Christian unless you interpret the Bible exactly the same way I do
-- If you are not a Christian you must be the spawn of the devil. We will do whatever it takes to bring you down. If that means lying or spreading falsehoods, so be it. The ends justify the means.

They may use slightly different words but the meaning is exactly the same.

I don't know why Ms Parker
feels it is necessary to insult the Christian base of the Republican party while expressing her admiration for Mitt Romney. It makes Christians like me even more determined to vote for Huckabee in the primary!

OVER THE TARGET

.....Ms Parker ...You know you are over the target when the flak becomes thickest ...

...LILLY ...Did you think when you voted for handsome, articulate Bill Clinton that a few years later he would have an intern on her knees in the Oval office servicing his sexual lust? ...

...CORNPONE HARRY ...did you support Ronald Reagan? ...What do you think of him legalizing abortion in Calif years before Roe vs Wade? ...did he have an epiphany? ...was he converted? ...or was he a flip-flopper? ...try to be consistant in your judgements "lest ye be judged" ...

...SOULSAMURAL ...Compare Romney's record as Governor of Mass compared to Huckabee's record as Governor of Ark ...and tell me which one more closely resembles a Conservative and which one resembles Elmer Gantry ...

.....this should be a no brainer for true Conservatives .....COLOSSUS

Boone - Nailed it ...
Boone's right - Romney is obviously just stupid.

Boone - do you happen to have two post graduate degrees from Harvard? Did you finish in the top 5% of those classes? Have you turned around multi-million dollar business enterprises on a consistent basis?

Your knowledge of the Book of Mormon is so pathetic that it doesn't warrant a response. Theologians with PhD's after their names study those very issues you raised. Are they all duped and yet somehow you know it all?

If you hate Mormons then fine. It's sad but a reality in today's world. Just don't go around thinking that you are smarter than the 12m+ members of the Church. Many of whom converted from other faiths after studying the theology and then asking the Lord for guidance.

You insult every Mormon by making silly claims about the Book of Mormon.

Sorry, Kathleen, ...
though you are one of my favorite, if not theee favorite, columnists, you missed it on this one. I couldn't care less about Mr. Romney's Mormonism. The few Mormons I have known in my life have always been the hardest working, the most honest and ethical, and have raised children to be fine, upstanding, and respectful citizens. (Although I sitll can't figure out what their problem is with caffein?)

My beef with Romney is his stance on issues. Which really is not a stance as much as it is a tap dance. Romney doesn't so much flip-flop as he does pander. And there is a huge difference. Mr. Romney fails big-time on the issues.

And to you, my Mormon friends: If you vote for Mr. Romney just because you want a Mormon in the Whitehouse, you are in the same company as the sleezeballs who will vote for Hillary just because she is a woman. Think about it.

Lilly, you need to re-read ...
John's post. He never mentioned anything about the pledge of alegiance or the phrase "under God." He mentioned the phrase "In God we trust." Now, I don't know how long that phrase has been around or on our money, but my 1884 liberty Dollar has the phrase "In God we trvst" (many of the older coins have a 'v' in place of the 'u'). By my calculation, 1884 predates Eisenhower.

Gaggling Constitutional Illiterates
After perusing most of the commentary which fell from the lips of literary imbeciles on this post, I decided not to comment.

baseballdoc ...
Not sure if you're a Christian, but the "lest ye be judged" scripture has been used out of context so much, it is getting ridiculous. When reading the surrounding text, it is clear that the lesson being taught is not about judgement or judging others. It is about hipocrisy.

Matthew 7:1-5; "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Religous tolerance anyone ???
It doesn't sound like anyone who has commented negatively on Mitt's speech really even listened to it. I did, and I think the whole point of his speech is that he's not going to allow anyone's religous belief's, including his own, define his position as President. We play right into the liberal leftist hands when we fight among ourselves on religous grounds. I find it hard to believe that we as a people, living in the only country that has religous freedom, would be so bigotted to judge someone who doesn't believe as we do, unworthy to serve as President of the USA. Maybe we really deserve to have an Atheist or Muslim in office and see what the country turns into then?

KP on point
Very good article discussing a great speech. Those of us who care about the symbiosis between "freedom and religious liberty" welcome much thoughtful commentary on the topic.

Did it occur to the insulted Christians that perhaps KP's comments about different beliefs seeming odd to outsiders were made in the spirit of those who would be contemptuous and are not her personal evaluations? DUH!

Enough with the slick hair comments--maybe Mitt doesn't want to spend the time and money Sen. Edwards and others do for the perfect blow dry look!

Mitt exhibited a depth of understanding of the core values underpinning our freedoms--again, GREAT SPEECH!

Reaching too Far
"The Book of Mormon teaches that

• the ancient Hebrews came to America by boat,

False, or at least grossly distorted. It says that SOME Israelites came. It does not claim this was the only pre-Columbian immigration. It does not claim that all of those in this migration were "Hebrews", and hints that there may have been others on the same ship.

• the continent was empty,

FALSE. It says that there was a huge, and far more ancient, migration from Asia. Internal evidence clearly shows that there were many other people there when the Israelite migration occurred.

•and became the ancestors of all American Indians.

FALSE. Some have interpreted it this way, including some Mormons, but the text does not make this claim. Also, see the above in re: the continent was empty.

"Archeology, Linquistics and DNA studies all PROVE beyond any reasonable doubt that NONE of this is remotely true."

FALSE on all counts.

There is much of archeology that supports (not proves) the Book of Mormon accounts.

Linguistic studies show a significant correlation between Hebrew and the Uto-Aztec family of languages in Mexico and the USmerican southwest.

DNA studies are, at best inconclusive, but certainly do not "prove beyond any reasonable doubt" that the Book o0f Mormon account is false.

You are, of course, free to dispute this, but you made some specific claims, without any supporting evidence. If you want anyone to believe your charges, you must substantiate them.

Schools exist to support government power,
not to educate children. Save yours from
the state's youth concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

You make some excellent points lilly
lilly writes: 8:28 AM
To talent scout
Re "Since when have Americans needed an education on slick politicians?": Amen.
-------
ts:
I just wish we all could stop allowing the party "leaders" to continue dividing the nation up with right and left political speech.
Return to what Unites the States.
Romney tapped into what that is, but his record tells the true story that he is NOT even close to being what comes out of his mouth.
Course, he is no different than the rest of the wolf pack running for office dressed as lambs by the Madison Avenue Public Relations trainers.


We would all be glad to see a STATESMAN running for the highest Office in the Land.
Not to be in this age of sound bites and Madison Avenue Salesmen packing their chosen candidates in the best possible light that their vocabulary can dream up.
-------
Well said lilly:

"Romney is the very slickest of slick operators and he's got slick speech-writers and handlers. An American public, trained now for sixty years to respond positively to TV commercials, will probably respond to Mitt Romney by electing him president. They will get what they got last night: a polished surface. The dark underside will be cleverly concealed.
.........
.. He makes me feel as if I just swallowed a pint of Mazola oil."

Footballfan
writes: "Can't have a great speech when you have
an utterance this inaccurate: "Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom."

That's downright moronic."

RIGHT! And YOU MISSED THE POINT that that was a quote from one of our founding fathers, John Adams!

THAT is downright moronic! Why am I not surprised?


Silly Lilly!
Do you really think that any of the readers of your posts think that you would vote for ANY Republican, or for that matter anyone who wasn't a socialist?

Talent Scout
It is very hard for those outside the Mormon Church (and some inside) to distinguish the difference between Mormon folklore and actual Mormon Doctrine.

If it came from a book that was written by a Mormon Leader it is almost always a personal understanding of that specific leader and not official doctrine of the Church.

There is a difference between a sermon by Huckabee and the official position of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBS is not bound by nor do they have to defend every personal opinion that Huckabee has preached during his career as a minister. Much less what he has said or done as Governor.

The same thing is true of Mormons. Individual leaders write books. That does not make it the official position of the Church. It makes it the personal non binding opinion of one leader.

Talent Scout
You like Hunter (so do I). You like Tancredo (so do I but I don't think he is ready to be president). You like Paul (I think he's a NUT).
You think Romney's "slick" and I think you are right about that but I also think he is honest and that his speach was masterful and heart-felt.

On of GWB's failings is that he's not very smooth (slick) and the demogogues have been able to demonize him. Romney is very smooth, an excellent CEO and I believe he has it right regarding illegals, the rule of law, what sort of judges should be on the supreme court and the proliferation of government programs and spending among other things.

Man to man BG
I respect you personally, and almost to a man every Mormon I have known.
Nothing I come here to comment on is from personal animosity to any individual, including Romney.
A decent man.
----------


BG writes: 2:59 PM
Talent Scout
It is very hard for those outside the Mormon Church (and some inside) to distinguish the difference between Mormon folklore and actual Mormon Doctrine.
----------
ts:
Holds true for all subject matter and is why it is so important to study the subject and the personal deeds of each speaker.
I am still sold on deeds speak louder than words, and understanding how to separate an issue from and individual.
Knowing this, I have studied the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and the speakers of both.
---------
BG writes:
If it came from a book that was written by a Mormon Leader it is almost always a personal understanding of that specific leader and not official doctrine of the Church.
-------
ts:
How about what comes from Smith himself?
How about what comes from B. Young himself?
How about what comes from the present and past "Apostles" of your faith?
As you can read what they say, so can I and can also judge it.
As the Bible commands me to do.
----------
BG writes:

There is a difference between a sermon by Huckabee and the official position of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBS is not bound by nor do they have to defend every personal opinion that Huckabee has preached during his career as a minister. Much less what he has said or done as Governor.
------
ts:
100 percent agree
Yet Huckabee or no other speaker has come up with any official "bible" of their own as Smith did.
Or mohammed.
.

I LOVE IT
When all the usual suspects go bonkers!

Lilly, Cornpone Harry (oh boy does that name fit!), Vitae... Get a clue!

As for those who actually have an intellect but simply disagree, please take another unbiased look at Romney. I know that there are other cantidates you like and the truth is, I would be happy to vote for at least five of the potential Republican cantidates. Yes, they all have flaws. Inasmuch as YOU are not running, we won't have a perfect president. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I agree with Mitt
The speech raised some important points as it relates to religion and politics - and their history in this country.

But that doesn't mean I'll vote for him - as others have said... there is a lot more to consider than just his position on the influence of Mormonism (or other religion) in his political life.

This country wants a man of conviction to sit in the Oval Office - his speech kind of made me appreciate Huckabee even more.

Lets us look at the basic facts
BG
Concerning the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Koran.

All we have is the words found in these books.

Same identical thing you and I are now using to communicate our ideas, understanding and insight on political subjects and the related faith of candidates for our Highest Office in the Land.

Many and manifold differences in the very basics of what each book claims is from God.

The Bible is put together by many different authors over several thousands years,one author of the BOM and one for the Koran and all 3 books testifying as Inspired of God.

Both the Koran and the BOM contradict the teaching of the Bible as both books glean certain parts out of it and both claiming where they differ from the Bible, the Bible is wrong.

The Koran says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God.
He was not crucified and did not Rise from the dead.

A small(very small, many others) sample of contradictions in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.


Bible
Book of Mormon

Bible: Church began in 33 AD Mt 16:18 Acts 2

Book of Mormon: church began in 147BC, Mosiah 18:17
---
Bible: "disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" 40AD, Acts 11:26

BOM: Alma 46:13-16 supposedly written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.
-----

Bible: Jesus is only head of church Col 1:18

BOM: Joe Smith is head of Mormon church D&C 28:2-6
-----

Bible: "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17

BOM: "He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10
---

Bible: 3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44

BOM: 3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27
-----


Bible: God is spirit without flesh &bones Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39

BOM: God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22
------
See my problem?
I must make a choice in who I believe, as all men do.




Vitae
This may be beyond your level of intelligence, but Kathleen wasn't trying to insult Catholicism with her remark about the "stale wafers and cheap wine". She was simply pointing out the obvious that if we were to list all of the religious beliefs that may seem odd to someone of a different faith, it would be a long list. Certainly, the doctrine of "transsubstantiation" is not something you would expect to be preached in a Baptist or Presbyterian church. If we all believed the same thing, there wouldn't be hundreds of different faiths would there? So, in your view, Is it necessary that the next president be Catholic? JFK was a pretty good leader but he did some really dumb things too.

Talent Scout
You're hung up on doctrinal differences that have absolutely no bearing on the office of POTUS. Moreover, your argument is not even with Romney but with Joseph Smith, who is not even a cantidate this time around. I realize that you are all knowing and have all truth. I'm quite sure that you take every word in the Bible literally, right? I'll bet you don't!


Words MUST match DEEDS
Kathleen rightfully places this as very important to the Foundations of such a diverse Nation as America.

quote:
He made two important points clear: Freedom and religious liberty are inextricably linked. And, though Romney's religion informs his life, leaders of his church will not inform his decisions as president.
--------
ts:
This VERY SAME LIBERTY belongs to me in all aspects of my life and God Given Rights.
It is not the right of Mitt Romney to decide my health care and force me by law to pay off the insurance companies by an EXTORTION of Law making me a criminal to the State Power of Force making me subject to a crime if I do not have the money to pay off the insurance company.


As Romney preaches freedom of religion, he demands by law I have none for personal health care decisions.

Or the many other subjects now taken over by both State and Federal Law STEALING my Liberty as an individual where I choose to spend even my own hard earned money.

I want the real Liberty this Nation was Founded in.
Not the hypocritical liberty division of free will in JUST Religion,and preach Marxism in all other areas of life.

As he preaches of freedom of religion, let him live up to that same liberty in all the other areas that the Nation was Founded in.

Oh, he cannot do that and get elected, he would not have the super rich men financing him for office any longer.
He is a bonafide hypocrite politician, and slick speaker.

No wally, I am not
wally writes: 4:09 PM
Talent Scout
You're hung up on doctrinal differences that have absolutely no bearing on the office of POTUS. Moreover, your argument is not even with Romney but with Joseph Smith, who is not even a cantidate this time around. I realize that you are all knowing and have all truth. I'm quite sure that you take every word in the Bible literally, right? I'll bet you don't!
------
ts:
I answered a direct post to me by BG.
You seem to be hung up on what I say.

Here is how this all works wally.
You have the liberty to speak for yourself and what concerns you.
I have the same right, and will use it.

Now you take care of you like I do me, and both of us can be happy.

Fact is, even if BG did not make a post to me about what I responded to, its perfectly with-in my right to say it anyway, as this is not an issue I dreamed up and brought into the realm of ideas.

So quit hanging onto what I want to say and let it stop you from saying what you think about Romney, America, Religion or any other subject.
Just understand you will not direct me on what is important or can be talked about.

See how free you are here wally?
You said this directly to me.
-------

wally writes: 3:01 PM
Talent Scout
You like Hunter (so do I). You like Tancredo (so do I but I don't think he is ready to be president). You like Paul (I think he's a NUT).
You think Romney's "slick" and I think you are right about that but I also think he is honest and that his speach was masterful and heart-felt.
---------
ts:
You call Paul a NUT
I call Romney slick and a hypocrite.
Both of us are at liberty to describe how we see things.

I am no more "hung" up on Romney, than you are with Paul.
We just both have our own views.

This site is one of the very best to really get into the issues in depth.
And allow us all a voice and our individual personality as seen in our choice of words to describe best how we feel and see the men and the issues.

TALENT SCOUT & LILLY

.....Did either of you two ever hear the term SLICK WILLIE? ...

.....To use slick as a pejorative against Romney while defending (In Lilly's case) The King of Slick is really hypocritical at best and just dishonest at face value ...

.....Clinton was snake oil salesman slick ...Romney is polished and sophisticated slick ...there is a difference .....COLOSSUS

LILLY

.....Why don't you just listen to Romney's speech so that you can make an objective decision instead of just spewing forth Left Wing talking points ...I used to think that you were just misguided and I almost felt sorry for you but you are just a twisted old hippie who gets off on attacking conservative who are trying to preserve the Constitution that give you the right to spew your putrid bilge .....COLOSSUS

Trust is as trust does
soulsamurai writes: Friday, December, 07, 5:18AM
Great Speech but it doesn't really matter. Huckabee's momentum is becoming nearly unstoppable. Don't blame it on bigotry towards Romney's Mormonism - it's just that Huckabee's positive message and vision for America is connecting with ordinary Americans. People really like Mike, but they also trust him.
=================================================

People may, but beware of "trust". I want to know what you can and will do for the country. I do not trust Huckster. Nice guy, but you don't leave "nice guys" with your daughter. I guess we can always pray for rain and other things.


LILLY

.....Romneys speech was made at 9:30 AM CST ...not at night ...

.....You are not even a good liar ...as a veteran of Vietnam I always thought that hippies were lower than pond scum ...you just confirm that my judgement was correct ...

.....Old hippies never die ...they just get old and smell bad .....COLOSSUS

Unreal!
To Lily, Cornpone and all you other twisted clowns, you really don't get it do you?...and you missed my point completely. Try re-reading my original post word by word.

As for those who think Mormon's are a cult, try going to a Mormon service sometime. They are not much different from Catholics, Protestants, Methodist, Lutheran etc etc services. My wife is a Mormon and I go with her to church on occasion so I know better. So what if they don't drink or smoke does that make them bad?...or any worse than Prohibitionists or these Do-gooder socialists who want to ban smoking everywhere?
Anyone who says Mormonism is a cult doesn't know doodly squat about what they are talking about and is just another ignoramous.

Yes, but you knew that
baseballdoc writes: 5:00 PM
TALENT SCOUT & LILLY

.....Did either of you two ever hear the term SLICK WILLIE? ...
-------
Listen doc, I do not believe in lilly's socialism, but she is exactly right in my own judgment of Romney, Rudy and Huckabee.
If she could hold Hillary and Obama to the same standards it would increase here credibilty.
She will NOT do that, I know.
But that does not make it wrong in her views of Romney.
---------

baseballdoc writes:

.....To use slick as a pejorative against Romney while defending (In Lilly's case) The King of Slick is really hypocritical at best and just dishonest at face value ...
------
ts:
Something I have never done.
I was ashamed and still am in America electing Billy bob, and even considering his traitorous wife.
-------
baseballdoc writes:
.....Clinton was snake oil salesman slick ...Romney is polished and sophisticated slick ...there is a difference .....COLOSSUS
-------
ts:
No there isn't, not a lick of difference.
Neither man is honest with America.
Course this also goes for all the so-called top tier, both parties are full of self agandizing hypocrite politicians.
Not a Statesman among the lot.


Hunter/Tancredo/ Paul
Only real people in the race
(with their own human defects)

little
theres little new attitudes on these blogs! but baseball doc and once marine make me laugh!
the thing that comes to my mind--hucklebee has a very shady record....pardoned over 60 criminals, pressured authorities to release a rapist, who went out and killed and raped! mike pushed it through personally, and he is very compassionate for illegal immigrants, called before the ethics board 14 times! set up a gift for himself and his wife as they were parting ..way over the amount that he should have..a wedding gift..and they have been married for 30 years! real respectful fellar ,huh! how can people just ignore these vital things? now...romney wiil win iowa,n.hampshire,mi.,and maybe even s.carolina?
as for iowa..it aint over until its over! elvis

Romney's Speech
The writer asks who is to judge another's faith? This question should be asked of Romney because the Mormons believe that theirs is the only true faith and all 'gentiles' and other nonbelievers are damned. That smacks of a judgment.

According to the writer the Islamists convert by conquest. The Mormons convert by coercion and indoctrination, then add the fear-of-damnation factor; any missionary work that involves fear-based tactics is questionable to me.

Mormons are insolent enough to 'baptise for the dead.' They access other families' genealogy records and obtain information that is none of their business in order to perform these baptisms. What kind of over-reaching, outrageous practice is this? Is this a judgment of a life about which you know nothing except a birth and death date?

Then there are the secretive rites in the temples. More than one Mormon has told me that these ceremonies must remain secret or the lives of those who disclose the nature of the rites will be in jeopardy. And they genuinely believe this to be true. If the rites conducted in these temples are indeed pure and holy, why is it necessary to maintain that level of secrecy and why would death threats be implied?

I was amazed that Romney had the audacity to discuss religious tolerance in his speech. The Mormons are the most bigoted, intolerant, hateful, discriminatory people I have ever had the misfortune of living with, and I have lived in many places.

I am not a born-again Christian and I am not a bigot. People have a right to question religious beliefs and they have a right to disagree with those beliefs without being labeled, especially if they actually have some personal knowledge about the subject. And, of course, every American is free to worship as he/she chooses.

for boone
boone writes: "The Book of Mormon teaches that the ancient Hebrews came to America by boat, the continent was empty, and became the ancestors of all American Indians. Archeology, Linquistics and DNA studies all PROVE beyond any reasonable doubt that NONE of this is remotely true. A bunch of uneducated people 170 years ago I can understand, but any person who claims to believe it today is either a liar or an idiot."

Oh, brother.
There are a lot of things in the Old and New Testaments that modern science has proven couldn't have happened either:

The laws of physics prove that it is impossible for the Sun and the Moon to have stood still as Joshua commanded. (The Earth revolves around the Sun, not the reverse)

And the laws of physics prove that the Star of Bethlehem could NOT have "stood over where the Christ child was." (Violates the principle of conservation of momentum)

If you want to believe in those passages from the Bible, then you must either take those things to be one-time miracles (which by definition can have no confirming evidence), or be considered metaphorically (myths, historical exaggerations) rather than literally.

The Book of Mormon can be treated in the same ways.

SteveL
Just for the record, the Hebrews that came to America split immediately into two camps, one ruled by the brothers of Nephi who were jealous of him and hated him. Both groups grew very large and were always in opposition. At one point, God marked the lamanites, the group opposed to Nephi, making them a different color. This would no doubt involve changing their DNA. If you believe God created physical man in his own image, then you would have to agree that God is one fine geneticist and could do that.

As to your other problems with the laws of physics being violated in the Bible, It is hard to interpret scripture literally. Somethings are diminished or changed in translation. God loves to use parables and stories to illustrate things. Take a conversation you had last week with someone and write down what you think was said. Wait a thousand years and translate it to another language. Then translate it some more and see if everyone can agree on the same interpretation of what was said.

You read it in its entirety and either believe or disbelieve.

Just Feel the Love
"Mormons believe ... all 'gentiles' and other nonbelievers are damned."

Mormons do not believe this. Your own words refute your point:

"Mormons ... 'baptise for the dead.' They access other families' genealogy records and obtain information that is none of their business in order to perform these baptisms."

The first part is true: Mormons DO baptize for the dead. This means that those who were not Mormons are candidates for salvation, ergo, NOT damned.

The rest is poppycock. Mormons access other's public records, to be sure, but the only way they could access private genealogical records is if the person gave those records to the Mormon Church, which means the person would have given permission for any work to be done.

Furthermore, if your assumption is true (Mormonism is a false religion), it does no harm at all to baptize (or anything else) on behalf of these people – it's just a waste of Mormon time and money.

"Is this a judgment of a life about which you know nothing except a birth and death date?"

There's no judgment when performing these ordinances. As you say, Mormons rarely know anything about the person, couldn't judge anyway. It is considered a simple fulfillment of biblical prophecy (Matt 16:18, 1 Pet 3:17~21, 4:5~6) and scripture (1 Cor 15:29) and uniquely Mormon scripture.

The people whose baptisms are performed vicariously have no obligation, in Mormon doctrine, to accept that ordinance. Mormons plainly admit that they could, and many will, reject it.

The rest of your rant conjures up a painful vision from your past. Most people who know Mormons say they are kind and good people in general. I doubt anyone here is interested in the event that triggered your vitriol, but most Mormons would apologize profusely for whatever it was.

Schools exist to support government power.
Save your children from the state's youth
concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Book of Mormon Supports Bible
Bible: Church began in 33 AD Mt 16:18 Acts 2
BoM: church began in 147BC, Mosiah 18:17

BIBLE: Church began at the foot of Sinai, Ex 12:3
Heb: Aydah; Gr: ekklesia; Eng: Church

Bible: "disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" 40AD, Acts 11:26
BOM: Alma 46:13-16 written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.

DIFFERENT societies, different histories. "Christian" means a follower of Christ, the Messiah. The English word "Christian" is a translation of the Hebrew term the Nephites had to mean "followers of Messiah".

Bible: "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17
BOM: "He shall be born ... at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10

NOT *IN* Jerusalem. Bethlehem is near Jerusalem, hence, AT Jerusalem. The Alma passage was nearly 500 years after the migration from Jerusalem - the people who heard this sermon had little knowledge of Israel's geography; Jerusalem was about all they'd have known.

Bible: 3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44
BOM: 3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27

DIFFERENT events. A power outage leads to a crash at 5th and Main and another at 8th and Elm. Witnesses will have different accounts.

You didn't mention that in Jerusalem the darkness started c. 3 PM, while in Zerahemla, it was in the morning, 9 hours earlier. But had you, you would NOT have noted that Zerahemla is 9 hours behind Jerusalem.

Bible: God is spirit without flesh &bones Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39
BOM: God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22

DOC&COV is not the Book of Mormon.

GREEK had no indefinite article. The passage in John does NOT say "God is A spirit", it has "spirit the God is" and it goes on to say those who worship Him must do so in spirit. To believe your eisegesis, we'd have to die to worship Him, and that's NOT biblical.

Save your children from gov't
concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

I Know What You Mean!
cornpone harry writes:
Friday, December, 07, 2007 2:02 AM
Parker ridicules Christians

"Who among Christians wants to explain ...The rather peculiar ritual of "grokking" Jesus by eating stale wafers and sipping cheap wine? "
---

A Spicy Definition:
1. Grokked 8 thumbs up
1. From the word Grok meaning something along the lines of to deeply understand. Hence Grokked means to deeply understand a person/object/thing.

Origionally from "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein.

Have you Grokked your SysAdmin today?
...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grokking
---
cornpone harry

I have to admit I had to look up Grokking and you can see. Nothing wrong with grokking Christ, and perhps we should a better grok of our neighbours.

She is not making fun of you ritual, nor would I, just revealing how, mor often than not that we take offense, over small tings in stead of seeking understanding and unity in the truth.

Chears and best of wishers. God bless you and God bless Americal that she may regain her place in the harts of all Amaricans and amoung righteous nations.

Enough To Raise Cain From The Dead
talent scout writes:
Friday, December, 07, 2007 2:11 AM
Absurd
Kathleen writes:
---

A Spicy Recommendation:

If positive attention gets positive results; and negative attention gets negative results. Why do we crave so much negative attention by putting out negative vibes?

One thing is clear, that you are choked by anti-Mormon cranks who are robbing you of your time, money and spiritual life. When I was 18 or 19, there about, I learned one very precious principle concerning spirituality. Spirituality and love for truth are two of my passions and all because I know that we are spiritual children of God, and we are family. Yes I know that I am ignorant, and I could learn a lot from you if you would give me half a chance.

We can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make it drink, unless we salt the oats before.

6 “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”
(New Testament | Matthew 5:6)

6 And blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:6)

“Spirituality is the consciousness of victory over self and of communion with the infinite, to feel one’s faculties unfolding as the truth expands the soul.

Spirituality impels one to overcome difficulties and acquire more and more strength and is one of life’s choice blessings.” David O. McKay

Welcome to my part of the world, a brother in Christ.

==WANTED FOR LIFE MOTHERS AND FATHERS FOR CHILDREN==

Flip flopping & mind twisting
LS writes: 10:23 AM
Book of Mormon Supports Bible
Bible: Church began in 33 AD Mt 16:18 Acts 2
BoM: church began in 147BC, Mosiah 18:17

BIBLE: Church began at the foot of Sinai, Ex 12:3
Heb: Aydah; Gr: ekklesia; Eng: Church
--------
ts:
No it did not and you do not even know the difference.
This is what it says.

Exodus
12:3
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

Distortions of words and meanings are endless with you people.
----------


Bible: "disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" 40AD, Acts 11:26
BOM: Alma 46:13-16 written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.


LS writes:
DIFFERENT societies, different histories. "Christian" means a follower of Christ, the Messiah. The English word "Christian" is a translation of the Hebrew term the Nephites had to mean "followers of Messiah".
-------
ts:
You would believe anything if you believe that.
Now I understand more than ever what strong delusion looks like.
The Bible itself says they were FIRST FIRST FIRST called Christians at Antioch.


The King James Version (Authorized)

Acts 11
11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS FIRST IN ANTIOCH.






LS leaps over houses
He is superman.....
-------

Bible: "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17
BOM: "He shall be born ... at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10

LS:
NOT *IN* Jerusalem. Bethlehem is near Jerusalem, hence, AT Jerusalem. The Alma passage was nearly 500 years after the migration from Jerusalem - the people who heard this sermon had little knowledge of Israel's geography; Jerusalem was about all they'd have known.
-------
ts:
Incredible
Bethlehem was well known.
Its amazing how rubberish a stretch you will seek for words to try and cover up an obvious contradiction.
Believe whatever you want, but realize intelligent people will not accept such blatant distortions to try and hide the contradictions.

---------

Bible: 3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44
BOM: 3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27

LS:
DIFFERENT events. A power outage leads to a crash at 5th and Main and another at 8th and Elm. Witnesses will have different accounts.
------
ts:
One Crucifixion
Already see how you will say anything to support the BOM, even when its a blatant lie.
Go right ahead.
You go without the Christians
We know this is genuine nonsense.
--------
LS:
You didn't mention that in Jerusalem the darkness started c. 3 PM, while in Zerahemla, it was in the morning, 9 hours earlier. But had you, you would NOT have noted that Zerahemla is 9 hours behind Jerusalem.
-----
ts:
HUH!
lol
So is Tokyo
Neither place matters as Jesus was Crucified at Jerusalem, and there was 3 HOURS of darkness.
Even if its eternally dark in Zerahemla.
This is just way beyond any sort of sound mindedness, its insane.

----------

Bible: God is spirit without flesh &bones Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39
BOM: God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22

LS:
DOC&COV is not the Book of Mormon.
------
ts:
So it is,I stand corrected.
Just makes both false

Putting my name
talent scout writes:
Friday, 2:11 AM
Absurd
Kathleen writes:
---

A Spicy Recommendation:

If positive attention gets positive results; and negative attention gets negative results. Why do we crave so much negative attention by putting out negative vibes?

One thing is clear, that you are choked by anti-Mormon cranks who are robbing you of your time, money and spiritual life. When I was 18 or 19, there about, I learned one very precious principle concerning spirituality. Spirituality and love for truth are two of my passions and all because I know that we are spiritual children of God, and we are family. Yes I know that I am ignorant, and I could learn a lot from you if you would give me half a chance.
-------
ts:
Seems to be directed to me, not sure.
Not with what else you had to say.

You do seem sincere, (that I will give you) and if you are sincere and this is to me, I can help you.
Believe it.
If not to me, just ignore this post.


Book of Mormon Supports Bible
"Bible: Church began in 33 AD Mt 16:18 Acts 2
"BoM: church began in 147BC, Mosiah 18:17

• BIBLE: Church began at the foot of Sinai, Ex 12:3
Heb: Aydah; Gr: ekklesia; Eng: Church

No it did not and you do not even know the difference.
This is what it says.

Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation [aydaw] of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:"

Here's what Strong says:

aydaw
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd): shown in the AV as: **assembly**, company, congregation, multitude,

qa^ha^l
Assemblage (usually concretely): in the AV as: **assembly**, company, congregation, multitude.

ekkle¯sia
A calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): shown in the AV as: **assembly**, church.

The words are synonyms, they all mean "assembly" or "church". The AV uses "assembly" to translate ekklesia in Acts 19:32, 39 and 41.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
Church
Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship. In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ekklesia, which is **synonymous with the Hebrew qa^ha^l** of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply **an assembly**

The references to "church" in Exodus must be to the Church of God. Most Christians preach that God is unchanging, so His church would be THE church no matter the period, before or after Christ.

Children are too important to allow bureaucrats
to raise them. Save yours from the government's
youth concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Book of Mormon Supports Bible
"Bible: "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17
BOM: "He shall be born ... at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10

NOT *IN* Jerusalem. Bethlehem is near Jerusalem, hence, AT Jerusalem. The Alma passage was nearly 500 years after the migration from Jerusalem - the people who heard this sermon had little knowledge of Israel's geography; Jerusalem was about all they'd have known.

Bethlehem was well known."

To whom? To Smith? Of course, he read the Bible and knew where Jesus was born, so had he written the Book of Mormon he'd have said "Bethlehem". To Jews subject to Rome c 1 bc? Yes, they, too, knew of Bethlehem.

But to Israelites 8,000 miles away, separated from the Land of Jerusalem by the Atlantic Ocean and 500 years? Whose leaders took care NOT to tie them too closely to the disobedient Jews they'd left behind? No. Jerusalem itself was important to them. But Bethlehem held no specific allure.

When people ask me where I lived while stationed in Italy, I tell them Pozzuoli. When they go blank, I say "Naples". Neither is strictly speaking true. I lived in Zaccaria. You can't find it on a map. But Zaccaria is in "the land of Naples", so "Naples" is a correct, and useful answer. (At least for those whose geography exceeds their government-run, tax-funded schooling.)

So it was with Amulek. His audience had no knowledge of Bethlehem. They had some familiarity with Jerusalem, which was both the city and the name of the region (see the Armana letters). So, "born ... AT Jerusalem" is not only accurate, but culturally consistent.

Schools exist to support government power.
Save yours from the state's youth concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Book of Mormon Supports Bible
"Bible: 3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44
BOM: 3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27

"DIFFERENT events. A power outage leads to a crash at 5th and Main and another at 8th and Elm. Witnesses will have different accounts.

"One Crucifixion"

You fail to explain why different things, in different places, albeit triggered by the same event, must be identical.

Yes, one Crucifixion, but two different periods of darkness, separated by 8,000 miles. Unless you're arguing for a universal "lights" out, which no one recorded outside of Jerusalem (and not many within).

One power outage, two different crashes; one crucifixion, two different events of darkness.

"You didn't mention that in Jerusalem the darkness started c. 3 PM, while in Zerahemla, it was in the morning, 9 hours earlier. But had you, you would NOT have noted that Zerahemla is 9 hours behind Jerusalem.

"So is Tokyo"

No, Tokyo is 5 hours AHEAD of Jerusalem.

"Neither place matters as Jesus was Crucified at Jerusalem, "

WHAT!? People lived in many places other than Jerusalem. To THEM, those other places mattered a lot.

"and there was 3 HOURS of darkness."

Yes, IN JERUSALEM! There was no darkness at all in, say, Lutèce. Would you claim that a history of the Île de la Cité was false because they didn't record 3 ours of darkness from 1500~1800 hrs on April 3, 33 ad? That's parochial to the extreme.

I will believe that children should learn in classes of 20 the same age when mothers start whelping litters about that size. School is for fish; we are a different species.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Book of Mormon Supports Bible
"Bible: 'disciples were first called Christians in Antioch' 40AD, Acts 11:26
BOM: Alma 46:13-16 written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.

"DIFFERENT societies, different histories. 'Christian' means a follower of Christ, the Messiah. The English word 'Christian' is a translation of the Hebrew term the Nephites had to mean 'followers of Messiah'.

"The Bible itself says they were FIRST FIRST FIRST called Christians at Antioch."

Your emphasis, of course. (Bibliolaters are such fun to watch as they wrap themselves around their own axles.)

That is what the Bible says, **about the saints in the "Old World"**. The Bible is not a universal history of the world. It is a selective history of a very small part of the earth, and a tiny fraction of mankind. Moreover, it stops at the two most interesting points in history, and fails to say much about either one: the post-exilic period of the Jews (when the Judaism Jesus grew up with was created), and the post-apostolic period of the Christian world (when orthodox Christianity was created).

You cannot believe that, because it does not mention the Jewish Temple at Elephantine Island, that that temple did not exist. You cannot believe that, because the Bible fails to say how Jeremiah died that he is still alive.

Quoting an infamous philosopher, whom you would agree with:
"You would believe anything if you believe that.
Now I understand more than ever what strong delusion looks like."

I will believe that bureaucrats should dictate what,
when, where, and how a child must learn when they
can tell me his name and his favorite book.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Correction
It was not Amulek who spoke of Christ's being born AT Jerusalem, but Alma.

I apologize for any inconvenience.

Schools exist to support government power.
Save your children from the state's youth
concentration camps.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org
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