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Friday, April 20, 2007
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Supreme Test of Human Sanity
by Kathleen Parker
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- From the clamor following the Supreme Court's ruling to ban partial-birth abortion, one might assume that American women have been robbed of choice.

In fact, women can still render themselves unpregnant, in the vernacular of choice-speak, by several means. They can ``disarticulate the fetus'' and even ``reduce'' or ``separate the fetal calvarium.''

If the vocabulary is confusing, that's the point. Using Orwellian language to sanitize the issue, so to speak, is a time-honored tactic of the ``pro-choice'' arbiters. If we don't say what it is, we can pretend what it isn't.

Herewith, a brief translation:

Disarticulating a fetus, which sounds like suspending a pre-born's instant-messaging privileges, means to dismember it. Reducing a calvarium -- a thoroughly desirable-sounding procedure, like lancing a boil -- means to suck the brains from the baby's head. Separating the calvarium means to sever the head with scissors.

Paying attention to the language of abortion -- or anything else for that matter -- is instructive when trying to consider right from wrong. If you have to dress something up to obfuscate the truth of what's in play, you can probably assume it's wrong.

When a man murders his wife, we don't say, ``Mr. X rendered his wife unalive by efficiently evacuating her cranial cavity with an instrument customarily associated with construction.'' We say, ``He bashed her brains out in a brutal attack with a claw hammer.''

We apparently have no stomach for similarly descriptive (honest) terminology when it comes to the unborn. But then, one might argue, Mrs. X -- unlike a fetus -- was a completely alive human being when Mr. X committed the deed.

With its ``partial-birth abortion'' (PBA) decision, the Supreme Court took a step toward defining the aliveness of not-quite-born human beings and drew a bright line between abortion and infanticide.

Until now, a baby whose head was still inside the mother's body was not alive enough to be protected under the laws of a nation that calls itself civilized. Understandably, it's easier to kill a baby -- sorry, ``terminate a fetus'' -- when you don't have to see its face.

Now, if a baby's body has been partly delivered from its mother, it is alive enough to be protected.

Opponents of the ruling assert that this is a dark day for Americans' constitutional rights and women's right to choose. They say this ruling is merely part of the pro-life strategy for gutting Roe v. Wade, one ruling at a time.

They also argue, correctly, that this ruling saves no babies from abortion. As stated previously, a fetus can still be disarticulated. And that ``procedure'' is, arguably, equally brutal, though perhaps not as painful as collapsing the skull.

According to expert testimony, a fetus from 20 weeks' gestation forward may feel ``prolonged and excruciating'' pain during a PBA -- especially when the skull is crushed or punctured for ``evacuation'' of its brains. The other side did not rebut the claim.

Reality pop quiz: When rational people can dispassionately discuss whether it's better to dismember or collapse the skull of a pre-born baby, are they still allowed to call themselves rational?

The main argument from the pro-choice side, and the constitutional issue at stake, has been that the PBA is sometimes needed to protect the health of the mother. But in no single court case were doctors able to demonstrate that PBA was ever a medical necessity. Instead, all arguments were in the realm of the hypothetical.

Indeed, the majority of PBAs are performed on the healthy babies of healthy women. Meanwhile, other alternatives are available that are safe for the mother, if no less unpleasant for the fetus.

It is, of course, true that pro-lifers are celebrating this ruling and that they also hope eventually to see abortion regulation reverted to the states.

It is also true that many states now will pass PBA bans as well as ``informed consent'' laws that may require women to view a sonogram before consenting to abortion. Pro-lifers expect the informed consent laws to be challenged and hope for a favorable ruling.

Whatever legal battles lie ahead, Wednesday's high court decision seems a civilizing step forward, affirming as it does that the state has a substantial interest in protecting and preserving life.

As an operating principle -- and assuming it is not misapplied -- it would seem to beat the alternative.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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Hitting the Nail on the Head
Ms. Parker has very nicely articulated the issue...if you cloak abortion in clinical-sounding terms, you can pretent it isn't what it is...killing a baby. I've just got to wonder why the pro-abortionists are so opposed to any kind of informed consent such as a requirement to view a sonogram before having the "procedure" done. Should it really bother them if the woman decides not to go through with it Apparently it does.

Constituional right?
I looked again and still can't find any mention of abortion in there.
I am personally against abortion,but my biggest complaint about the Supreme Court ruling is that they still haven't sent it back to the states. It shouldn't be a federal matter.
I have heard the "precedent" argument many times, but that doesn't make it right.
Drug dealers sell drugs every day. they have set a precedent. Does that make it right? or good? Obviously not.
Are we going to force this person to keep selling drugs because he set that precedent? I would hope not. We should hope that he would look at was he has done in the past and say "I have no business selling drugs. I'll stop doing that."
I know, the example is extremely simlistic, but there are simple people that need a simple example.

Abortion procedures
I am appalled at the description of such abortion procedures. It only shows my ignorance, of course. But I do ask: how can this happen in a nation. that only a few years back used to proudly call itself a "Christian Nation"? God will soon no doubt "visit" you, in a Biblical sense. He may even use some madman, like Ahmadinejad, to do it, and you will have deserved every bit of it. The evil that showed up at Va Tech is nothing, compared to what you have done to 45 million babies, since 1973, and with the compliance of the Supreme Court. If you consent evil to be so freely and legally practiced in your country, why would you be surprised at the Virgina Tech "incident"? May God forgine you, but I as a weak human being find no strength in my heart to forgive what has happed to those 45 million little babies. Vade retro, Santan.

This form of abortion was needed
Some years ago, abortionists were finding that there were complications to the procedures that they were performing to abort unborn children. That was, the babies were being delivered alive and intact, in spite of the method that had been used to abort the child. We are talking about unborn children that were in the mid to late term of pregnancy (after the first tri-mester). Obviously, women undergoing the procedure were understandably upset by this circumstance. They paid to have their child destroyed, not delivered live. It was also upsetting to employees as well, the aborted children were left on a shelf (literally) to die unattended. There was no way to deny the humanity of the aborted child. Show a small child an ultrasound photo of a child in the womb, and they recognize it almost immediately as a fellow child.

The PBA was the answer to this complication. Try wrapping your mind around that statistic, 45 million children killed by abortion since 1973. Some years ago, I heard a prominent minister at a pro-life gathering make the following statement, "What better way for Satan to destroy the Children of God, than for them to destroy their own children?" In the years since, I have not seen, heard, or read anything that better explains what has happened to our society. May God have mercy on us all.

Dissenter57: Rational thinking, please!
Cognitive dissonance: perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, which can be defined as any element of knowledge , including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior (in lay men's terms, the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time).

Dissenter57, Bush Derangement Syndrome (BSD) sufferers, et al: How can the most ostensibly incompetent & verbally incontinent President(at least according to the leftist MSM) in the history of the U.S. accomplish the most far reaching conspiracy in the history of the U.S., including manipulating prominent members of the Democrat party (that so viscerally hates him) into voting in support of the Iraqi invasion? Which is it? The more you BSD sufferers & “international socialists” spin your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories the more you sound like your national socialist forebears when they began their efforts to malign Jewry, i.e., sub-human but able to conceive & maintain a global cabal.

But do enlighten me, I am the most ignorant of all men…

Sign of the times....
It has been a curious week, indeed. Perhaps, mental exercise may be used to 'get it'. The nation is fixated on the tragedy unfolding in Blacksburg, Virginia this week. Any image or video that can be transmitted for public consumption is stuck in replay mode. The talking heads add the appropriately somber commentary ( As Walker Percy noted, we all feel so much more alive during such putatively terrible times......odd thing about people these days..).
The radical feminist pro abortionists throw temper tantrums at the mere suggestion of providing proper 'informed consent' via sonography prior to termination of a pregnancy. It would be impolite to note that most of the 33 people killed on the VT campus died faster and with less agony than the average pre-born infant subjected to ANY abortion procedure.
Solid research has established that pre-born infants experience pain well before 20 weeks.
Could we agree to the following 'compromise' for the moment ? Each and every fetus on the docket for termination, from this day forward, is given enough pain medicine to 'make bearable' getting sliced and diced, scalded with whatever liquid solution, getting sucked out via Oreck method, skull crushing followed by brain suck, etc.
Why not ? If whatever it is is just a bunch of cells, it will cost pennies to humor those of us who aren't quite sure about the 'clump of cells' view.
For the record, this week was actually uneventful. It demonstrated once again, we are living in the darkest age of human history. lost our minds

My 2 cents
I am a practicing Catholic and the Catholic Church teaches that life begins at conception and ends with NATURAL death. Therefore abortion is murder. The fact that the Supreme Court has legalized it changes that fact not a whit. I could just as well argue that making it legal enables those who think it is ok to impose their lack of religious beliefs on others.

If it's growing it's alive

There does not seem to be any middle ground on this. We have been arguing about it for 34 years and counting.


Dissenter57, et al: Profoundly Amoral
Speaking as a Jesuit-educated Deist who none the less believes in the salient values associated w/ Judeo-Christian Philosophy, I nevertheless have a strong libertarian streak: ““Morality” shouldn’t be legislated, but “Amorality” shouldn’t be subsidized. As a taxpayer I have a problem w/ subsidizing the “amoral” abortion industrial complex. Why is abortion so widespread? Because radical feminism & a paternal legal system have allowed many women-children to return to their amoral promiscuous nature- back to the days before the “Patriarchy” imposed their “Judeo-Christian” morals upon the female worshippers of every tree & stone. Today, it apparently takes a village, i.e., welfare state to support & raise a child. Or if that’s inconvenient, get the same state to pay for the “procedure.”

Female misbehavior-enablers like you sound like national socialists when they began their efforts to malign Jewry, i.e., sub-human but able to conceive & maintain a global cabal. It’s called “Cognitive Dissonance.” And nothing is a greater embodiment of cognitive dissonance than the “virtuous gender” and its apparent fixation on ABORTION RIGHTS: it is perfectly “normal” for women that exercise their "reproductive rights" 1.4M times (30% of all children conceived) annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities) by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. It is perfectly “normal” for over 70% of all child abuse cases being attributed to the biological Mother.

The ongoing ABORTION issue and its current facet, “Partial Birth Abortion” is but a single symptom of a greater problem. The US is currently too focused on its main post-modern domestic policy, i.e., providing for the emotional, physical & financial well-being of its virtuous female electorate: artificially enhanced lifespan, no-fault divorce (i.e., alimony, child custody, etc.), affirmative action/quotas, Female-only technical scholarships, (e.g. Intel), VAWA, welfare state, Title IX, taxpayer-funded abortion on demand in perpetuity. Plus a progressive taxation system (top 50% (majority=MEN) pay 96% of all income taxes) has been put in place by the Democrat party that penalizes men while financing said female-specific welfare state, abortion industry, divorce industry, child custody monopoly, etc. What a fine society radical feminists and their duplicitous metrosexual males with their misdirected sense of chivalry have created for the minimally franchised, expendable male taxpayer.


Abortion is a federal issue
Abortion should be a federal matter. The constitution plainly states that the rights and protections therein apply "to ourselves and our posterity". Pro-lifers properly argue that unborn children are included in "ourselves". But it's useless for anyone to deny that the unborn are our "posterity". So the constitution protects the unborn. Abortion is a human rights atrocity that should be outlawed federally just as slavery was outlawed federally.

Gene Touchet
What a revolting post. ANYONE performing a partial-borth abortion should have THEIR brains sucked out. It figures that only libsquirts who be protesting such a ruling.

Abortion
I wonder how much time will pass before we start venturing into the opposite end of abortion spectrum. By this I mean mandating abortions. Those who would oppose mandatory abortions would face the same arguments used to justify it now. If it does not end human life and is relatively harmless to the mother, the only justification for not mandating abortion is the legal fiction of it being a constitutional right. These rights have always been balanced against the needs of society as a whole. The legal question will revolve around this question: "is this a right or expectation of privacy one that society is willing to uphold". One person's right verses the needs of society in controlling population or preventing people with birth defects from being born and becoming a burden on the medical system.

Dan874
I agree. Abortion, in general, is a state issue.

nick38
That's not so far fetched. Communist China does it and we are getting closer to them every day.

PBA-never safe for the child!
Safe procedure for WHOM??? There is never a time when it is "in the itnerest of the woman's health" to perform a PBA...for all of you deniers out there - the baby is delivered feet first - a MUCh more difficult delivery because the child must be turned around while in utero - and the shoulders delivered (arguably the widest part of the body). The woman must undergo labor. It is painful (I know-the second of my three weighted 10.5 pounds). After going through all of that, the head is pierced and the brains sucked out. Labor is labor and no amount of libdolt obfuscation will change that medical fact.

How much easier it would be to simply deliver the live baby and place it in a loving adoptive home?

Abortion is the reason the recent generations have no respect for life - they kill for a pair of shoes, or because "they was dissed".

Argh.

I have a great idea
I just had one of those moments of brilliance. If the murder of a viable person can be called by another name to make people feel better, why don't we call murder a retroactive abortion?

It's as logical as trying to ignore the fact that a viable person, one that could survive outside the womb, is being murdered in the name of a woman's right to choose. Face facts, there are some people who could use a retroactive abortion.

Dissenter57
You guys are a little preoccupied with religion. Why does it frighten you so much. One can be opossed to abortion and be completly devoid of religiuos belief. How does my view of the death of a child being wrong impose a religious belief on you?
Can anyone express an opinion without you saying that a religious belief is being imposed on you.

Retroactive abortion
I think we would need to limit that to age 17. after that they are a viable adult.

Answering the Reality Quiz
RE: "Reality pop quiz: When rational people can dispassionately discuss whether it's better to dismember or collapse the skull of a pre-born baby, are they still allowed to call themselves rational?" The answer is a very unambiguous 'no'; in fact, those individual forfeited all claim to the term "rational" when they pushed for the legalization of such things.


RE: Gene Touchet
"No one" is pro abortion? That is the biggest lie in the history of biggest lies.

Let's take, for example, Planned Parenthood, which was founded by a woman (Margaret Sanger) who believed that non-whites ought to be forcefully sterilized because they were genetically "inferior". SHE was certainly "pro-abortion" -- at least pro-non-white-abortion.

Or how about the example of when the inventor of the now (thankfully) banned procedure known as "partial birth abortion" gave a speech at a conference of abortion providers. He showed a video of the procedure, and gave a step-by-step explanation of the procedure. Then after the unborn child had its brain sucked out, and its body tossed into the garbage, he received a 5-minute standing ovation. These people CHEERED at the notion of exterminating an innocent life. Are you telling me THEY aren't "pro-abortion"?

Or how about the 30% of abortions that are performed on women who have had at least one prior abortion, or the 17% of abortions that are performed on women who have had at least **two** prior abortions? Are those women receiving those abortions NOT "pro-abortion"?

To claim that "no one is pro-abortion" is an outright lie.

Dear Dissenter57
Are the folks on the left assigning you all numbers now? If so, I truly hope there are just 57 of you.

Now for even more fun, I have some comments RE: "And let us not obfuscate the issue here, as Ms. Parker is doing. Outlawing abortion is all about imposing your religious beliefs upon others."

First: why is it apparently acceptable for you lefties to impose your beliefs on everyone else but not for Christians and the clinically normal? Or do you live in some alternate ideological universe in which this only counts as imposition when religious people do it?

Second, and speaking of normalcy, it is both clinically normal and natural for a mother-to-be and for humann beings in general who are possessed of a modicum of decency, common sense and justice to want to nurture and protect the most vulnerable among us, and who could be more vulnerable than unborn babies?

Third; here is a purely secular argument in favor of granting legal personhood to the unborn: the unborn represent the most valuable natural resource any nation could have, namely, its very future and if that resource is not worth conserving, what is?

so, Dissenter57, come on back again if you want some more fun.

RE: Kraut
"If the murder of a viable person can be called by another name to make people feel better, why don't we call murder a retroactive abortion?"

This notion is already advocated by a freak named Peter Singer. Singer, a professor of philosophy at Princeton, thinks that "post-birth abortions" should not only be legal, but that they are moral somehow.

Interestingly, this quack is also a big animal rights advocate who thinks lab testing on mice is ethically wrong. This idiot actually thinks rats ought to have the right not to be killed, but human children should not be granted that right.

DISSENTER57'S LIBERAL LIES
Dissenter57 writes: Friday, April, 20, 2007 8:13 AM
Consistency, please!
KP: If you have to dress something up to obfuscate the truth of what's in play, you can probably assume it's wrong.
==================================================
That would appear to be the epitaph for the Bush Maladministration. They lied us into war in Iraq, dressing up the intel to obfuscate the truth that it was all about oil, Israel, and control of Congress. But of course, you don't see faux-Republicans like the usual suspects at Towngall talking about THAT!

============

You can't be a liberal without being a pathological liar. The current Big Lie of the Left is that "Bush lied." OF COURSE Bill and Hillary both said that Iraq had WMDs. Ted Kennedy and Hanoi John Kerry and John Edwards did too. In fact, every liberal in America believed and said that Iraq had WMDs. Only now when Bush said it, it becomes "a lie."

These same liars said that we were liberating Kuwait "for the oil." Today, Kuwait has been restored and (gasp!) we did not keep the oil we were supposed to be stealing.

Being a liberal means you never have to tell the truth, or apologize for your infinite lying.
"Depending on what the meaning of 'is' is."

beowulfe
Your comments about Peter Singer were right on target. I used to worry - and still do sometimes - that it was just a matter of time before our government legalized infanticide. After all, is there any real difference between infanticide and partial-birth abortion? The recent Supreme Court ruling has given me some glimmer of hope that the trend can be reversed.

Still, it turns my stomach to see that some crackpots in Congress still want to protect such a grisly practice as partial-birth abortion. We assign such a low value on human life, and we have the nerve to wonder why a crazed college student would kill so many of his classmates. We're only reaping what we've sown.

euthanasia
In a generally reasonable article, Parker makes the claim that "Indeed, the majority of PBAs are performed on the healthy babies of healthy women." But she gives no indication of how she knows this. And what has been most striking about the information on partial birth abortions is how sparce it is.

In fact what has struck me most from seeing comments from the women who have said they have had them, and from the women who have said that they have turned them down with moral disgust, is that every case I have seen has involved severely impaired children who would not be capable of surviving more than a year or two at the outset, and would be in physical pain most of that time.

That is to say that although neither side wants to acknowledge it, and both sides use the pba debate as a proxy for the larger debate concerning the more common early term abortions, the issue with the partial birth abortions is primarily one of euthanasia.

Admittedly I am basing this on anecdotal evidence. And it is not surprising that the pro-PBA side would put forward its most sympathetic women. But I do find it somewhat convincing that the other side in putting together the least sympathetic case still can come up with nothing but euthanasia cases.

beowolfe
In the name of accuracy, it should be pointed out that while Singer has some bizarre, out of the mainstream ideas, he is not a rights theorist and does not believe that either mice or people have rights. He has standards based on capacities, ability to feel, and the like, which he applies across the board. In general this gives human beings the edge over mice in most cases, although it is possible to gin up the examples in ways in which this fails to be the case.

demosthenes
Your 2nd post quintessentially summarized it all. It is without a doubt spot-on. How to turn it around is the next question. I shall vote in the ballot box and out; performing the latter by turning off the tv and voting not to be a consumer of trash. If I purchase a service that does me wrong I complain about it; without redress I find another business to deal with. In this case the entire industry is worthless, complaining does not work and the next channel over is the same or worse drivel. Abondoning tv is not giving up; it is the only logical response. Water cooler talk about what nonsense Rosi O' spewed allows us to feel indignant, and quite rightly, but I cannot help feel that that is a type of complicity non-the-less. Better to ignore the lunacy. More I cannot say. Regards.

Drew I agree
And was going to post to Dan874 that it is a federal issue. You forgot to mention equal protection under the law. As has been noted on other posts, criminals are charged with two murders when killing a mother and unborn child. That would fall under equal protection and should be a precedent to the fact that an unborn baby is a life.

dis57
Wrote: "I can see no right that I have as a citizen to use the sledgehammer of the State to force your daughter to bear a child against her will."

Poetic sophistry tinged with righteousness. Typically leftist thinking has removed the man from this scene, but he can be forgiven thanks to the Sledgehammer of the State having long ago deemed men persona-non; evidently only the Immaculate Sate is required to make babies. Families are political entities that represent a direct threat to the State. When trying to conquer Ireland, the Brits declared all inherited farm land be divided equally among the family's children, specifically with stone walls, and thus made it impossible for them to make a living on ever smaller parcels.

Dis57 argues then, a woman owns the child; though I would then ask: why then not infanticid? What's another 15 minutes one way or another? It would certainly make the "procedure" a lot easier.

What People Forget
People claim that there are only about one million abortions a year.

Since the female population is about one hundred fifty million, that means that less than 1% of women in the country will be affected by this ruling.

Dear Dissenter57
RE: "But what price freedom? That is ALWAYS the question." Nonsense. The right to life ALWAYS trumps freedom because without it, no one would be alive to enjoy life itself, let alone freedom. Freedom is NOT an absolute; even Nature has set a limit on our individual freedom; it's called mortality.

RE: Lon
"In the name of accuracy, it should be pointed out that while Singer has some bizarre, out of the mainstream ideas, he is not a rights theorist and does not believe that either mice or people have rights."

Does he or does he not believe lab testing on mice is immoral? According to his books, he does believe it to be immoral.

Does he or does he not believe it is NOT immoral to kill a fully born infant? According to his writing and public interviews, he DOES think it is NOT immoral to kill a born infant.

Word it any way you like, but the fact of the matter is that he grants to animal a moral superiority over that of human children. The man is a reprehensible monster, and that he is allowed within 100 miles of a classroom is an abomination.

Clearly,
people who believe some human beings have a right to kill other innocent human beings are going to find it difficult if not impossible to understand right thinking peoples desire to outlaw abortion (where might makes right).

Kraut
Your if your logic is extended (murder is simply retro-active abortion), then women are the only ones capable of committing murder with no repercussions. Since the father does not get a say as to whether a woman gets an abortion, it would hold true in the case of a retro-active abortion, right?


Dissenter57
You would ammend the Constitution to outlaw abortion? To what end, there is no provision in the Constitution that even remotely supports abortion. How can you change something that doesn't exist?

You swipe too broadly the individual freedom and self determination brush. There must always be laws to govern by.

beowolfe
"Does he or does he not believe lab testing on mice is immoral? According to his books, he does believe it to be immoral.

Does he or does he not believe it is NOT immoral to kill a fully born infant? According to his writing and public interviews, he DOES think it is NOT immoral to kill a born infant.

Word it any way you like, but the fact of the matter is that he grants to animal a moral superiority over that of human children. The man is a reprehensible monster, and that he is allowed within 100 miles of a classroom is an abomination."

To take your paragraphs in order:
1) He does not believe that testing on mice would be immoral if the benefits of doing so are great enough and there is no alternative way of achieving those benefits. He does believe that most actual experiments on mice do not fit that criteria and so opposes them. He certainly places a higher value on mice than I do, but it is simply false that he places a higher value on them than on humans.

2) In general he believe that it would be immoral to kill a fully born infant. He does, however, believe that there could be special cases in which there are mental deformities so great that the baby and family could expect nothing but suffering and so it would not be immoral in those special cases. That is, he accepts the kind of euthanasia that seems to be the main reasoning behing partial birth abortions in actual cases. Again it seems safe to say that he would accept euthansia for mice on the same grounds.

3) Word it anyway you like, it is simply false that he grants a moral superiority to mice over human infants. I don't agree with his ethical views, but he is a very sharp thinker and a lucid writer. I would advice anyone who is not to easily swayed in their opinions and has a chance to take classes at Princeton to see if they could take a class from him. I wouldn't want them convinced to his side, but given the extremity of his views that is not overly likely, but they are likely to learn something about defending their own views and making cogent arguments. So I am a glad that he has access to classrooms. I expect his students benefit greatly. (Unless his lectures are worse than his written work. I have never actually heard him speak.)

Dissentary 57
Your first comment is absolutely RED HERRING. What is the relevance of the Bush administration "obfuscating" the Iraq war to do with abortion??? This "you too" argument is absolutely invalid, but thank you for agreeing that liberals such as you DO OBFUSCATE abortion terminology. It's the language that counts, but not the action right?

Your final comment is even worse..."Outlawing abortion is all about imposing your religious beliefs upon others." Religion falls WAY DOWN on the list of the ProLife argument. Try Morality and Humanity on for size. Now I expect to hear from you that "morality is relevant". Of course it is to a whimsical liberal, but answer me this: which is the HIGHEST value to be upheld in the topic of abortion? CHOICE or LIFE? Life exists without choice (albeit miserable) but choice does not exist without life.

No Dissenter, killing a baby goes MUCH further than just religious consequences...but I don't envy you in that area either.




,Amen Ken
Your point is very well taken. Well said. Please take a bow!

I just don't get it
How can partially delivering a baby then killing it advance a woman's personal growth? (I do not buy the argument that there is a life-threatening medical reason for the procedure) I honestly don't understand why giving the baby up for adoption is off the table at that time. Can it be that it somehow easier to think of a PBA as an instant decision - no turning back and no one is the wiser, than to always know that you have a child somewhere that you gave away. Could this really be a rationale for ending a life?

Failed Test of sanity
Ms Parker,clear,concise,and cogent has once again hit the nail on the proverbial head. I can't believe some of the posts on this site. What word do some of you people live on? One can only wonder...

The People who are Pro PBA:
I think the time has come for them to put down their picket signs and instead carry a pair of scissors in one hand and a baby in the other and march to the Whitehouse.

What a sight that would be. Marching murderers advertising what they're trying to sell us.

Really, I didn't know a lot about PBA, and after reading this article and finding more, I am sickened....It seems surreal.

We criticize other cultures for ritual disfigurations they have done on young women, but PBA almost makes us appear more barbaric then other 3rd world countries.

Really, if you're Pro PBA or know someone who is, give them a pair of scissors and point them in the direction of a child. Let's see if reality sinks in how murderous it truly is.


Dissenter57
And nowhere in the Constitution are individuals granted the "liberty" to arbitrarily take the life of another, excepting abortion, which is not even hinted at ...

If it isn't a baby, you're not pregnant. And if you're not a former fetus, what were you before birth?

Shells, I doubt whether even your excellent suggestion would convince anyone who doesn't want to be confused by the facts.

AliveInHim
Thank you. The readings, the images of PBA were more horrific than anything I've ever seen. It's going to affect me for awhile. And trust me, I'm no lily either, I'm pretty thick skinned and can ration through terrible things. This though is something completely different.

If anyone imagines being that doctor who performs the procedure, and doesn't wince with a chill and feel sickened, is truly not human.

Dissenter57
In almost all cases, the woman is pregnant because she volunteered to be pregnant. Abortion in such circumstances is like inviting someone over to your house and then shooting her for trespassing.

Parents incur parental obligation when they sire children. This obligation properly begins at conception because it is the parents who created someone and put that someone in danger. We recognize this at-conception parental obligation everytime we hold a man responsible for a child he helped create. That man could be in another country at the time of birth and our laws rightly demand that he pay child support.

Dissenter57, true libertarians oppose abortion because they recognize that our obligations always override our rights. Libertarians for Life (www.L4L.org) has some great articles on the subject.

Please explain the support of religions
Would someone please explain to me how Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopal, Christian Scientist and others support abortion of any kind. Between the party of death, led by Pelosi, Kennedy and churches that can counsel young pregnant women to abort, where is God in all of this. How can anyone vote for the democratic party of death. dems would abort living children. pelosi would do anything to kill more because Kennedy is one up on her. How can a Methodist go to church and pray to the God they have denied gives life to all. how.

To Uncle Max
No, not 34 years, 490 years, ever since Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses. That's how long some of us have been saying that we choose not to be controlled by the doctrine of the Catholic Church. You're content with it, fine and dandy---I will defend to the death your right to be Catholic. But don't be telling me I have to live by your rules. I can name fifteen generations of my ancestors who gave the last full measure of determination not to be controlled by the Catholic Church.

Don't get an abortion. Don't use contraception. Don't be telling me I can't.

birth control
hey ladies cross your legs or use birth control

Bob
True for all ladies except lesbians.

Diss57
I'm not a churcher. Wrong, thanks for playing, next contestant. I'm an agnostic. God doesn't steer my choices, reality does. I respect people who believe whole heartedly in God and those who can't. So shut it.

This PBA is being thrown in by liberals as an All or Nothing at All bill. The circumstances you mentioned why a newborn might have to undergo that awful procedure are merited. Tough choices, life comes and life goes, and it's up to the family to decide where their values lie.

HOWEVER, it is my understanding that this gruesome procedure, is also to be enacted when a girl simply changes her mind at the last minute. That is murder.

What initially republicans tried to have was a medical stipulation to approve PBA, in case of a worst case scenario--such as the mother's life being in danger.

However, that wasn't good enough for the libs.

Go ahead, kill a small child, one day it may be your right to. Me? I can look a little deeper beyond my rights and look into the right of a defenseless newborn. I guess I'm just a little selfless and think adults should be thought to have more responsibility, since of course, a newborn has none.

Scissors are cheap. Enjoy.

Libertarian
I have no problem with people getting all the treatments they want when the treatment doesn’t harm an innocent human being. That’s why your comparison between obesity and pregnancy doesn’t work. When someone gets liposuction, she’s not killing a fellow human being. In addition, my argument isn’t that women have to stay pregnant because they asked for it. My argument is that parents incur obligation when they create a new human being. Why do we hold parents responsible for their children?

The ineffectiveness of contraception in no way alleviates parents of their obligations to their children. Adults need to realize that their actions have consequences and these consequences may obligate them to take care of a new human being. If you’re not willing to accept the consequences, you shouldn’t play the game. Avoiding your obligations by killing the one to whom you’re obliged is entirely unacceptable and should be illegal.

There you go with a lame “religious” accusation. You’re confusing religion with philosophy. Many religious people oppose rape, does this make opposition to rape a religious position? The abolition of slavery came about because religious people pushed for it. Does this make opposition to slavery a religious position? I know many people find it easy to disregard an opponent’s view if they can simply label that view “religious”. I hope you see how weak that is.

In reality, it is the pro-aborts who force their view on the unborn. They decide the unborn is worthless. They decide the unborn child’s life isn’t worth the trouble. Then they force that view on the unborn child by ripping her body apart or by sucking her brains out of her skull. That’s truly “forcing your view” on someone else. And all with the protection of the law.

The State’s interest is obvious. The unborn are human beings. This fact is incontrovertible. Just as the state has an interest in protecting a new born, it has the same interest in protecting that same human being before birth. It’s really sad that some people look for an excuse to kill these innocent human beings.

Your example of forcing someone to be pregnant is ridiculous. No one is advocating that. Forcing someone to get pregnant isn’t even in the same category as recognizing parental obligation.

You should realize that there is no such thing as an unwanted newborn. You might as well talk about the existence of unicorns. Newborn infants have no problem getting adoptive parents.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "No, what they have been robbed of is the right to undergo a safer medical procedure intended to end a problem pregnancy which, if not undertaken, may cost *both* the mother and fetus their lives."

As someone above asked rhetorically, safer for whom? I presume the "procedure" is always fatal... for the child.

Dissenter57: "My mind was made up on this when I heard Sen. Rick Santorum tell his tale of his anencephalic baby. While Mrs. Santorum had every right to risk her life for her religious beliefs, and I would be among the first to defend that right, it is profoundly immoral for anyone to insist that another woman -- perhaps your wife -- risk HER life for YOUR religious beliefs."

Since when does the "anencephalic baby" create a risk to the MOTHER's life?????? In addition, you now introduce "religious beliefs." Sure, many oppose abortion with religious motives, but it is essentially an issue of human rights. Does a preborn child have a right to life?

An analogy is often drawn with slavery; people opposed that with religious motives, but opposition to slavery was grounded in human rights, as is opposition to abortion.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "The fundamental danger I see is in the majority imposing its will upon the minority."

Abortion is NOT a question of the "majority imposing its will upon the minority." It IS a question of extending legal protection to the lives of unborn children. This is not rocket science. In this case, WE, the born, claim UNlimited rights over the preborn, in that we are legally allowed to "terminate" their very existance. THAT is a "fundamental danger" worthy of the name indeed.

Dissenter57: "As a card-carrying, active Republican, I freely accept the risk that I might be a victim of the next VaTech shooter, and that that is part of the price I must pay for freedom. Ditto, the scourge of abortion. Why, you ask? Because I genuinely fear the alternative."

Incorrect analogy. The proper analogy here is... would you return to the womb, and give your mother complete "freedom" to take you life, with no messy legal questions? Would you extend the rights of parents to such a degree as to allow them the right to take the lives of their already-born kids? If not, why do YOU discriminate against the pre-born?

Dissenter57: "If you want to outlaw abortion, there is a right way to do it: amend the Constitution. Rights are the unique property of the individual, and cannot be taken away without a truly compelling reason."

Sure. Overturn Roe vs Wade. Good start. And yes, rights ARE a "unique property of the individual" but NObody should be given such unlimited rights to "privacy" as to extend to taking the lives of others - be they pre- or already-born. The compelling reason to take away a person's right to take the life of another???? Heh. Id say MOST compelling indeed!

Dissenter57
Dissneter57: "We could require your daughters to give birth at age 18, whether they wanted to or not, if what you say is of paramount importance."

Nonsensical point in response to a reasonable point made by R.E. Lee above. He said simply that our most valuable resource are our children. Duh. There is NO implication here of "forced pregnancies" as YOU introduce. You are twisting what he said, and if deliberate, then you are being less than honest in your argument.

Dissenter57: "It is not that I think abortion should be employed as a means of birth control..."

Good. Even by pro-abortion standards, that is a MOST extreme position. Buit because you dont occupy it, hardly makes your actual position any the more balanced...

Dissenter57: "...but rather, that I can see no right that I have as a citizen to use the sledgehammer of the State to force your daughter to bear a child against her will."

Again, you are using emotive language... "sledgehammer of the state"...
"forcing your daughter" etc. This doesnt strengthen your case either. Would you have opposed the "sledgehammer of the state" when used to integrate southern schools? When used to protect the weak by enforcing the law?

Nor is the NON-provision of abortion a question of "forcing" ANYone to be pregnant. The argument against abortion is grounded primarily in the right of ANY human being to EXIST.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "At the end of the day, it invariably comes down to your wanting to impose your *religious* views down others' throats through the sledgehammer of the law."

This is complete nonsense, though I see you have brought back the "sledgehammer of the LAW" this time. NOR does it come down to "wanting to impose" ANYthing on others. Do you think for a moment being "anti-choice" in today's moral climate is easy??? Certainly not convenient.

"Live and let live" I say!! And ONLY a person who OPPOSES abortion can TRULY say that - as a humanitarian AND as a libertarian. YOU choose to deny a segment of humanity the very right to EXIST. A CONTRA-libertarian stance if ever there was one!!

Dissenter57: "There is no truly libertarian argument for the use of the State to enforce the proposed ban on abortion..."

Of course there is. The very SAME argument by which the STATE would prevent YOU from inflicting injury on ME far less than taking my life!

Dissenter57: "....even though you are free not to have an abortion."

Silly point again. Of COURSE I am "free not to have an abortion" and all that. Last century I was free not to have slaves. But the STATE took the right to have slaves away from the slaveholders by FORCE. Rightly so.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "It is chosen because it is medically safer than the alternative."

Heh. Repeating yourself. "Medically safer" for WHOM??? Hardly the baby!

Dissenter57: "If you carry a pregnancy for that long, it is most likely because you wanted the baby, and it became medically necessary for you to terminate it."

It is rarely if EVER, "medically necessary" to "terminate" the life of the foetus in this day and age.

Dissenter57: "Of what benefit is carrying an anencephalic baby to term, if doing so imposes considerable risk upon your life, as well?"

Since when did this impose considerable risk to the WOMAN's life? YOUR "solution" poses no small risk to the baby's life!

Dissenter57: Do *any* of you crazy over-zealous pro-lifers have even a *shred* of common sense or decency?"

Your tendency to name-call does NOTHING to advance your argument. It shows your OWN true state of mind, above all else. It reveals your barely hidden contempt for those who, with VERY good, sound, HUMANITARIAN reasons, are a BIT squeamish on the question of abortion.

And it is PRECISELY beCAUSE we have a "shred of common sense AND decency" that we OPPOSE this barbaric thing.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "The State has no discernible interest in whether a woman does or does not carry a pregnancy to term."

Simply not true. It has EVERY interest in PROTECTING human LIFE. If it hasnt, then it has no business doing anything ELSE.

Dissenter57: "I have no interest in what you do in your bedroom, and I am loath to tell others what to do."

How noble. In this you share the SAME position as almost everyone I know on the pro-life side. But this is another tired old argument. NObody has ANY interest in what happens in the BEDroom. Our interest lies SOLELY in what happens in the abortion clinic.

Lilly
Lilly: "No, not 34 years, 490 years, ever since Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses."

This is a red herring. Max was SPECIFICALLY referring to the Roe-vs Wade decision, made 34 years ago, as you well know.

Lilly: "I will defend to the death your right to be Catholic."

This always SOUNDS good... people always "defending to the death" and so on. It means nothing though.

Lilly: "But don't be telling me I have to live by your rules."

He didnt. So what's your point?

Lilly: "I can name fifteen generations of my ancestors who gave the last full measure of determination not to be controlled by the Catholic Church."

Just as I can name fifteen generations of my ancestors who gave the last full measure of determination not to be controlled by the Protestant Church....!!

Meaningless nonsense again, of course... and has nothing whatSOEVER to do with the argument or point made by Max.

Lilly: "Don't get an abortion. Don't use contraception. Don't be telling me I can't."

Very deep. Max no doubt thinks you shouldnt have an abortion for the very simple reason that it involves taking the life of the child in your womb. Most probably he has no opinion whatsoever regarding your use of contraception...

You obviously don't understand Roe
Roe vs Wade was unconstitutional. The court amended the constitution when it created Roe. It made itself a super-legislature.

First the court created a right to privacy which doesn't exist in the constitution. As Justice Roberts pointed out in his hearings, the constitution protects certain areas of privacy. The court expanded this privacy right far beyond the bounds of the constitution. Then in a glaring example of Begging The Question, the court decided that abortion is included in that privacy. Of course, the question begged was that of the humanity of the unborn. Instead, the court simply ignored the facts and declared the unborn non-persons. While you might like the results of the decision, it was without constitutional basis.

It's ridiculous to suggest that we need a constitutional amendment (passed by 3/4 of the states, etc) to fix an unconstitutional supreme court ruling. Instead, we need one more activist judge to be replaced by a judge who actually takes seriously her oath to protect the constitution.

D57, your libertine not libertarian
But what is the woman who inadvertently becomes pregnant as a result of contraception failure, if not an unwilling host mother?
================================
When a woman and man participate in consensual sex, even with contraception, they are voluntarily risking the creation of a new human being. When you put someone at risk and you fail to protect the one put at risk, you have initiated force. Imagine i start up my grill in my backyard and the fire gets out of hand, spreading to my neighbor's yard. I am at fault. Though unintentional, I have initiated force against my neighbor. I must do all in my power to save my neighbor and his property. I hope you can see the parallel. While creating a human being is not initiating force, putting that human being in danger is initiating force. Your obligation to protect that unborn human being overides your rights. Without a recognition of obligation, your "liberatarianism" is nothing but libertinism (licentiousness).

zygotes have rights?
The preamable of the constitution says:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY…

Notice that the constitution is meant to protect our posterity. Undeniably, “posterity” includes human beings at the earliest stage of development. The Declaration Of Independence says something similar:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED EQUAL…

All men aren’t “born equal” but “created equal”. Since creation occurs at conception, it is at conception that we gain our equality, including our rights to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Dissenter57
Dissenter578 "Given that there is no such thing as a perfectly safe, effective, and reasonable means of contraception, you would demand that every married couple in America who doesn't want a child at this time (for whatever reason) refrain from engaging in normal sexual relations -- a proposition that I find patently unreasonable on its face."

Not so. First off, if you are aware of the cycle of fertility, a woman can ONLY be impregnated if sperm is available at the time of ovulation. She is actually and de facto INfertile for most of her cycle. It is quite possible to determine those periods with a great deal of accuracy, what is known as natural family planning.

Should they wish to engage in sexual relations while the woman is KNOWN to be fertile, then use regular contraception, if this is not against your principles, but know that there is the possibility that pregnancy CAN occur.

So the proposition you find so "unreasonable on its face" is one YOU propose - NOT I. Nor have I ever even suggested such. Dont attribute unreasonable positions to me that I have never held.

As regards "forcing my daughter" and so on? I find this type of argument morally repugnant. You have made numerous references to peoples daughters throughout your post, as though this somehow changes the point. It doesnt. If it is wrong for ANY woman to abort her unborn infant, is is ALSO wrong for my fictional daughter to do so.

Dissenter57: "The famous Frankfurter aphorism applies: "My freedom to swing my fist is limited by the proximity of your face."

... OR... my freedom "to choose" is limited by the principle that we may not take human life as part of that choice.

Dissenter57: "While we all agree that retroactive abortion is inappropriate, even you agree that a fertilized zygote does not have a right to impose upon an unwilling host mother."

How do YOU know that I "agree" with this proposition? I have not stated any such thing anywhere. (Though I do like your "inappropriate" reference. I'd say a bit more than "inappropriate."

Dissenter57: "But what is the woman who inadvertently becomes pregnant as a result of contraception failure, if not an unwilling host mother? Where is the salient difference?"

Becoming pregnant because of "contraceptive failure" do NOT constitute moral grounds for abortion. And yes - part of the deal with using contraceptives IS that they may fail, either through human error in their use, or through their inherent deficiencies.

Dissenter57: "You say that if you're going to play, you have to be prepared to pay -- but when I apply your rules to analogous situations (e.g., morbid obesity), you object."

Where do I "object"?

Dissenter57: "If there were a safe and foolproof way to prevent pregnancy (say, by preventing the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall), would you be in favor of it?"

No I would not, for the record.

Dissneter57: "By your strict definition, it is murder."

Have I defined it as such? No.

Dissenter57: "Ditto, discarding unimplanted zygotes at the fertility clinic, because we can't force your Sally to bear them. We all draw lines here."

Again, you are loading your dice with emotive language and image. That word "forcing" again. There is NO moral requirement on "Sally" to involve herself in something about which SHE has HAD no direct part to play. This is the philosophical difference between ALLOWING evil and DOING evil. We may "allow," but we may never "do."

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "As I see it, allowing a woman a reasonable time in which to decide whether to carry a pregnancy to term is thoroughly consistent with libertarian principles.."

And what to you constitutes "a reasonable time"?

Dissenter57: "...leaving the decision where it belongs (outside the purview of the State), but protects the unborn by implicitly recognizing that if the woman doesn't exercise her right within that time period, she waives it."

Why would you want to "protect the unborn"???? The ONLY reason to protect the "unborn" is on the grounds of their HUMANITY. No more than you would allow a mother the right to kill her ALREADY-born kids on some misguided application of libertarian principle, then what is the difference? If there was no question but that the pre-born were NOT human, the question of "protecting" them - which even YOU can see some merit in doing - would not even arise.

Would you advocate killing those already born with Downs Syndrome? If not, why not? Because of their humanity? But when did they beCOME "human"? AFTER they were born? Or before? After all, they STILL constitute a "collective burden" on their families.

Dissenter57: "Socialists such as yourselves may have no problem with imposing your collective will upon everyone else; as a classical libertarian, I have a moral and ethical problem with it."

I'm not a socialist. But I see now you are back to another emotive term about "imposing my will"... Ok. As a so-called "classical libertarian" is there NO limit that YOU would place on the individual freedoms of others? One persons freedom ends where another may be injured by the exercise of that freedom.

Do you believe there should be NO rules of the road? That everyone may drive as they wish? If not, are YOU not "imposing your will" on others?? This is how ridiculous your position actually IS, regardless of how you dress it up.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "If Roe were overturned, it would constitute an admission that SCOTUS is nothing more than an unelected and unaccountable super-legislature ... and that we no longer live under the rule of law (not that we do anyway, but that is another debate for another time)."

Are you here now suggesting that the Supreme Court is infallible??? Cannot err in its INTERPRETATION of the constitution? Perhaps. Are you suggesting that the original framers of the constitution somehow included the right to abort a child up to the last moment before birth, but that somehow, this "right" remained hidden for almost two HUNDRED years before being magically discovered in 1973???? Heh.

Dissenter57: "Ask the Santorums' docs. They were the ones who were ethically obliged to offer the alternative of PBA in the story Sen. Santorum told on Focus on the Family, and warned Mrs. S that she was taking a risk in carrying this particular anencephalic baby to term."

Taking "A" risk. Just as you and I do EVERY time we cross the street. Just as EVERY woman does in being pregnant.... You really are stretching things here.

Dissenter57: "At the end of the day, it always comes down to you telling another person what to do, when you aren't paying the freight."

And you have NEVER ever had reason to tell another person what to do? Did you ever teach a class? Have kids? Hold ANY position were you were responsible for others? What gives YOU the right to "tell them what to do"... IF - as you seem to - you deny ANYone that SAME right and responsibility? If you are not denying this, then your point is meaningless.

Dissenter57. Final point...
for now...

Ok. I tried - and obviously failed - to explain previously that opponents of abortion oppose it primarily on humanitarian grounds. This is NOT rocket science. A point you dismissed with a sarcastic "How noble." Nothing "noble" about it. It is as simple as that. And because something is simple does NOT make it untrue.

I was responding to your previous insulting and pointless attack on those who hold a different opinion to you on this topic. I would consider you to have views which are completely unacceptable to me, but I do not attribute a "lack of decency" to YOU - even though you seem to favor laws which allow for the deliberate dismemberment and destruction of the unborn child.

But of the two, I would say your VIEWS - as distinct from yourSELF, do intrinsically "lack decency." Well-intentioned people can be as misguided as the ill-intentioned.

the quickening
It is quite easily deniable. At the common law, the fetus had virtually no rights.
======================
Actually, abortion was illegal after quickening -- when the mom first felt the baby move. Why? Because this was the first evidence that the child was alive. Of course, we've come out of the darkness and we know that the human being is alive at conception, long before "quickening". So, my claim still stands. The unborn are our posterity based on current science, not based on prescientific nonsense. The constitution therefore should protect these innocent human beings.

The Supreme court said so, so there!
the [court] decided [Roe] in accordance with their fair interpretation of the Constitution.
======================
I'm starting to see that you are impervious to logical argument. I explained how Roe was unconstitutional. JJ has done likewise. Now, i'm about to give up on you. You need to explain how Roe was constitutional. Saying "The Supreme Court said so, so there" won't suffice.

duh
If the law does not recognize a fertilized zygote as a person, then you cannot in law claim that that zygote has the rights of one, nor enforce your worldview to the contrary.
+++++++++++++++++++
This is just dumb. We're not discussing what the law is but what the law should be.

We were also discussing our worldviews to see which of the worldviews is best supported. You call yourself a libertarian, yet you refuse to address the issue of obligation. i didn't say libertarianism was libertine. i said that your view was libertine because it ignores obligation.

qualifications?
Let's get to the meat of the matter. The fact is that you don't believe that a zygote deserves the right to live. Why not?

Remember, whatever qualifications you state have to apply across the board. Such lists inevitably exclude obvious examples of (born) persons as well which shows us that such lists are simply self-serving tools of the powerful to trample on the weak. But give it a shot. Perhaps, you can surprise me.

Drew
Did you notice how Dissenter57 refers to the unborn child as a "fertilized zygote"... misusing language to hide the ugly and brutal reality of what s/he advocates? Sort of by way of example illustrating Miz Parker's point about the "language of abortion" above?

Furthermore..
I have NEVER heard a pregnant woman refer to her "fertilized zygote" - but to her "baby" - from the earliest stages of pregnancy. Interesting...

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "You are still free to be a hypocrite, of course."

A long rambling passage, not addressing what I said previously, concluding in yet another insult. Yawn.

Dissenter57: "Has it become a crime to use the language employed by the medical profession to describe the stages of pregnancy?"

No it hasnt. Nor did I ever claim it had! But it is cold and clinical, and deliberately so. Most extraordinary reaction to the word "baby" on your part. But that is what it is commonly referred to.... I note that you keep referring to the "zygote" as IF that was the crux of the matter.

But this as you KNOW, is totally misleading. Roe vs Wade, and EVERYthing we are talking about, kicks in for the full nine months to the moment before BIRTH - so in the context of this discussion, "baby" is a FAR more accurate term than "zygote."

Dont be afraid of it. Since when has it "become a crime" to use the word "baby" when it is the word MOST commonly used in describing the - ahem - "products of conception"???

Oh. More insults. Yawn again.

I see you are back to your old chestnut in your reply to Drew, using anOTHER false analogy... which I addressed above. But rather than engage in actual argument, you reduce yourself to the common insult.... tsk tsk.


Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "Fortunately, I know more about the law than the two of you put together..."

How do you know? One thing I have learned over the years is to take lightly those who claim they "know more" than others... Socrates was wisest because he realised he knew nothing, whereas others didnt! And as Drew pointed out already, this is beside the point. We are not arguing about what the law SAYS. But what we think it SHOULD say. And over whom it should extend its protections.

Dissenter57: "I can only go by my recollection of the Santorums' story;"

I see. So you dont have any REAL knowledge of the "risks" involved... as I say, "A" risk... which could mean anything. And nothing.

Dissenter57: "Law is about how far you can go in injuring someone in the exercise of your freedom."

Precisely so. And there is - duh - SOMEthing wrong with a law which allows one person to dismember another, solely because that other resides in the womb.

By the way, I dont drive an "SUV". I dont like them. Wasteful things. (Just as a matter of interest...)

Dissenter57: "Substantively, it would be no different from holding a bag over your daughter's head and preventing her from breathing. The fertilized egg needs access to the uterine law to survive!"

I see we are back to the "fertilized egg" thingy again. As I have stated previously, you are ignoring the VAST BULK of people's LEGITIMATE concerns regarding abortion in this country...

I dont define it as "murder" by the way, for many reasons, the chief one being that a mother who aborts her child can be presumed innocent of "murder", given the pressures she may presumably face, and in many cases the lack of full awareness of the fact that she is deliberately killing a human being. (Albiet at an early stage of development...)

And yes, I DID address your point about "Sally." Above. I would suggest you read a little more carefully. To repeat: I objected to this form of argument, because it is silly, and said "Sally" may ALLOW evil to exist and continue, but "Sally" may never DO evil. I cannot make it clearer than that, even for one as "knowledgable" as you...

common law vs legislated law
Thank you, D57, for an explanation of why you believe Roe is constitutional. Your explanation shows that you know far less about the law than you claim. You base your conclusion of the validity of Roe on common law. You forget though that leglislated law overrides common law. If this were not so, there would be no use to have legislatures. So, you can't use common law as a basis for tossing out legislated law. DUH. So, our claim still stands that Roe is unconstitutional.

You also put a lot of faith in stare decisis. But you know that the SC tosses out stare decisis on occasion. You can find lots of examples of this. There was the recently Sodomy laws deal. There was the decision of the death penalty. Brown vs. Education. The list goes on and on. Kelo, which is one of the worst decisions in US history, was based on stare decisis. Kelo will get tossed out too when the court comes to its senses. Abortion law has shown itself to be one issue where the court needs to reverse its decision. Roe has turned the court into a political hot potato where the confirmation hearings have become a circus. The court needs to fix the problem by dumping Roe.

Instead of a constitutional amendment, we need only to get judges on the court who will do their duty.

Roe imposed their religious worldviews
I'm interested in the law as it is, and the scary prospect of judges writing law to impose their own religious worldviews on the country.
----------------------
That's exactly what Roe did. A group of judges decided that they knew better than all fifty state governments and their citizens.

rational argument.
how is the woman whose contraceptive fails in any material way different?
-----------------------------------
i've explained this and you couldn't rebut my explanation. To have rational argument, you have to rebut me. Just repeating the same muck that i've already rebutted, shows that you have no idea how to argue rationally. Rebut or admit you have no case --

When a woman and man participate in consensual sex, even with contraception, they are voluntarily risking the creation of a new human being. When you put someone at risk and you fail to protect the one put at risk, you have initiated force. Imagine i start up my grill in my backyard and the fire gets out of hand, spreading to my neighbor's yard. I am at fault. Though unintentional, I have initiated force against my neighbor. I must (ie am obligated to) do all in my power to save my neighbor and his property. I hope you can see the parallel. While creating a human being is not initiating force, putting that human being in danger is initiating force. Your obligation to protect that unborn human being overides your rights.

religion, again?
If yours is a religious view (and I strongly suspect that it is)
=========================
if my view was religious, that fact would be irrelevent. as it is, i'm agnostic, so please cut the religious bull.

No Virginia, Roe was unconstitutional
Roper was a horrible decision as was Kelo. I don't believe that we should judge rulings based on the consequences or who wins/loses. We should judge rulings based on the law. So, we're in agreement on this.

"That's exactly what Roe did. A group of judges decided that they knew better than all fifty state governments and their citizens."

This is not an argument by assertion. This is simply fact. The Supreme Court decided to toss out the abortion laws of all 50 states based on nothing. i don't understand how you don't see this. Even that pro-abort piece of trash Lawrence Tribe admits this: "One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found."

The all-encompassing privacy right doesn't exist. The idea that killing a baby would be included in such an all-encompassing privacy right isn't supported by the constitution either.

>>I've showed you how the Roe Court had no real choice but to rule the way they did,

No, i rebutted that point by explaining Common Law. Why was the baby's first movement the delineating factor? Is it because movement itself gives the baby rights? Well, we can detect that baby's movement a lot earlier these days. Even so, movement granting rights is unsupportable. Was it the fact the woman felt the baby's movement that suddenly gave the baby rights -- As if being noticed can give you rights? No, total nonsense. The fact is that the movement was the first indication of life. Of course, we now know (as the court knew but lied about in 1973) that life begins at conception. So, the court didn't have to abuse it's power by ruling the way it did.

breastfeeding
So, why not use technology to solve the problem? A double-dose of estrogen, and the uterine wall flushes itself, preventing the fertilized egg from implanting therein.
++++++++++++++++
You keep repeating stuff that i've already rebutted. Parents incur obligations to their children. I'm sure you realize that it takes no hormones whatsoever to keep a newborn from attaching to her mother's breast in order to feed.

"Well, you know, the newborn baby didn't attach and died of starvation. Not my fault. Afterall it is my body and i'm under no obligation to take care of this parasite. Breast feeding is such a personal use of my body. Don't you dare try to invade my privacy."

Dissenter57
A few quick points. First off, I do live in the "sticks" and am quite happy to do so. Doesnt mean I dont have other stuff to do though, which is why I tend to post a number of items together, and then disappear.

Second, you referred to something as being "in my opinion" previously. Yes. Of COURSE it is. When I offer an opinion, it IS "in my opinion" just as I would hope your opinions are yours - and no less valuable for that.

Third, you refer to your legal qualifications. Yes, you may know more about the law in particular areas etc. But I have a number of qualifications in different areas myself, and I KNOW that simply means one may know VERY little, about some VERY small area!

I would suggest, however, that you may be blinded BY your "legal knowledge" and not see the wood for the trees. You continually referred throughout to the "zygote" whereas the "zygote" stage of development refers to only ONE stage development, at very early stages of pregnancy.

Roe vs Wade does NOT refer specifically to this stage, but encompasses the WHOLE nine months. Of course it is "legal" and so on, but this was NEVER the point. What is "legal" does not always equate to what is morally acceptable, so in this sense, your legal expertise is of limited value to the discussion.

The point is; regardless of the legality, in dealing with the question of abortion, are we discussing the "termination" of human life or not? That is it. And if we ARE indeed talking about human life - and goodness knows what else it can possibly be - then there ARE serious moral questions to be addressed, which you seem to ignore completely.

Dissenter57
... In fact, your continual reference to the zygote has almost NO bearing on the abortion debate in general. It would have more bearing if we were discussing the morality of the morning after pill.

But. Implantation will have taken place, and the embryo will be at LEAST four weeks old beFORE a woman - and here I refer to someone MOST attentive to her cycle - even realises she is pregnant. Mostly it is FAR later than that.

And so. In a study, on whether experimentation may be allowed on the embryo or not, The British Embryology Society produced a report in 1992 which stated that at 14 DAYS, the embryo could not be described as anything OTHER than "human," and so "experimentation" could not be allowed.

As you no doubt are aware, in Britain, abortion has been legal since 1967. So we find ourselves in the ridiculous position, philosophically, were we may not "experiment", but we may kill. And that is my problem with abortion advocates in general, and you in particular.

You would no more give a parent the right to kill its child, under ANY circumstances, LEGALLY, but you would in no way RESTRICT that right when the SAME child happens to reside... in the womb.

I am not arguing on "legal" gounds. I AM arguing on philosophical/moral and biological grounds. What one should/may do, as distinct from what the law allows. Perhaps this is the reason we seem to be so completely at cross purposes. I dont know.

And please dont go back on the "telling others what they should do" or not. I have already addressed this business on previous posts, and have no desire to re-invent the wheel....

Also, my ONLY reason for opposing abortion IS on the grounds of the humanity of the unborn - embryo/foetus/child... whatever..! And these are the grounds on which the vast bulk of abortion opponents stand. YOU keep introducing religion.

Does the religious motivation of the civil rights leaders such as MLK take FROM the humanitarian purpose? No.

And so, you may consider me wrong. I dont have a problem with that. But why is the obvious so difficult for you to grasp?

Breast feeding
Once the baby is born, the parent's obligation can be extinguished easily. Ever bottle-feed a baby? If a woman wants to, she can leave a baby at the hospital at no cost to herself.
-------------------
D57, that is so intellectually cheap. i seriously expect more from you than that. All you did was dodge the issue.

Face it, the mother in the circumstances you describe would have to use her body to provide a bottle or to deliver the baby to a hospital. So, it doesn't change the issue.

That aside, you have to read the parallel the way it was intended. Suppose the mother and child are stuck in a fully stocked attic (oh, no baby formula or bottle) for two weeks due to a natural disaster like Katrina. According to the principles you believe, she could let the child starve to death because she is under no obligation to use her body to serve her child.

Dissenter57
Cant think of a single "straw man" I invoked... maybe cos of a seasonal shortage of straw around here?

Yes, the issue of "when life begins" is at the center of my argument. But you are conveniently (for you of course!) keeping the discussion extremely narrow by focusing ONLY on the zygote stage, when in FACT this is rarely the issue. And you seem to be one who prides himself on "facts"....

Fact is that IF you are going to kill it or "terminate" it, you had better be CERTAIN it isNT human life. I refer you to the British study, for more expert opinion of how early that is in their eyes. Perhaps you consider this to be a "straw man"?? But it is CRUCIAL.

And at later stages, when in FACT the vast bulk of abortions actually TAKE place? We are NOT talking about the zygote stage then. Certainly in the case of partial birth abortion, I would argue it was somewhat more developed than a "mere" zygote.

I see you now refer to the "baby." What was it just BEFORE it was born? And regardless of when it is inevitably going to die, we may not shorten its life. We are ALL going to die, but to deliberately shorten another's life is often considered murder. (In the larger sense..) A practice widely held to be "barbaric, immoral and inhuman" even if it "doesNT offend your *tender* sensibilities."

What "facts" did I change? Oh. Your continous references to law school do not impress, but grow repetitive and are a bit of a bore at this stage.

As for you being male and having no "dog in this fight" that is a total cop out. So only those immediately effected by any issue may have an "opinion" or the right to have one on that very issue? What about the approximately 50% of male foetuses? Your unborn male brethren?

I'm not interested in who opposes/supports abortion other than in this case, YOU and ME. I make NO false assumptions or generalizations about YOU based on what others who hold your view have stated in the past. It would have been nice if you had extended me the same courtesy.

Dissenter57
.. It is most convenient for you to tag your opponents as some kind of religious fanatics, even when this opponent did not at ANY stage bring that topic into the argument. Far as I can see, the ONLY one of us that did was YOU. So give over this cr*p about "religion overwhelming reason".

Good Samaritan
The common law contains a deeply rooted principle that people are not required to aid others in distress, particularly when aid can be provided only at significant cost or risk to the rescuer.
-----------------------------
This is true. No one can be required to be a Good Samaritan. The problem is that this logic doesn't apply to abortion. Remember, it is the mother and father who caused the unborn entity to need assistance. If you caused the person to need help then you are obligated to help that person. This goes back to the barbeque example i sited earlier.

Evidently, my Cable Guy analyis is superior to both your's and Tribe's.

9th amendment
Roe was a badly-written decision; the Court could have found that the right to privacy (which every civilized man agrees exists) was contemplated in the Ninth Amendment, and followed Griswold into a consistent body of coherent law.
-------------------------
This makes it sound like we've been talking past each other. You agree that the reasoning behind Roe was muck. While i have no problem with the result of Griswold, Griswold was also unconstitutional. There is no general right to privacy. This is where the court needed to take your advice. Instead of pulling a general right to privacy out of nothing, the court should have waited for a constitutional amendment.

The ninth amendment?

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

i fail to see a right to abortion in there. Please explain.

parents aren't bystanders
While a certain degree of sacrifice may be compelled by the law, the two cannot be credibly equated.
--------------
i agree. i wasn't talking about the law, i was talking about principle.

The "significant cost to the rescuer" caveat is the limiting principle;
---------------
A culprit can't pretend to have the rights on an innocent bystander (possible rescuer). See "Good Samaritan" above. So you're refutation is duely refuted.

Nice going Drew...
But I doubt that Dissenter is amenable to reason. Speaking from both of our experiences above....!

Strawman
It's actually the Religion Attack that is the Strawman because none of us have resorted to religious arguments. If i had said the Bible says such and soforth or i had claimed that Jesus would abhor abortion then it would be correct to challenge the authority of such a source. As it is though, the straw flies everytime D57 mentions religion.

I know...
Priceless. Bring it up and then accuse your opponents! And of course we are - by virtue of the fact that we oppose abortion - "hypocrites" and all kinds of "fanatical" reprobates!! Heh.

And of course, none of these remarks are withdrawn at any stage... And of course, you must remember that Dissenter "knows" FAR more than both of us put together! LOL!

Dissenter57
You now seem to be attributing a statement to me I have never even made...

As I mentioned in an aside to Drew above, you "know" FAR more than both of us, have NO problem labeling us "hypocrites" and so on... though you dont even know us...

But this is beyond silly.

Dissenter57
Dissenter57: "obviously, we couldn't attack your 18-year-old daughter on the street with a turkey baster and force her to host a zygote."

Obviously not. This would be a form of rape. So yes, *even* I would draw a line on this one. Duh.

Dissenter57: "some Inuit sub-cultures would literally abandon a female child at birth, because survival demanded it."

And would YOU agree with this in the moral sense? If so, I see even less point in carrying on this conversation. If not, then YOU yourSELF are "drawing lines". And how do you KNOW - apart from the fact that you "know" WAY more than us of course! - that YOU can draw that line in the correct position?

Dissenter57: "So, get over your love affair with the fetus already;"

I dont have a "love affair with the fetus. I just dont think it should be under a death sentence simply because it resides in the womb.

Dissenter57: "without a religious underpinning to your argument, it necessarily fails."

Silly point. So you are NOW stating that people who have no religious beliefs have NO standards of behavior?????? No absolute moral scruples???

Dissenter57: "And we can say as a society that the putative parents' right to autonomy is superior to the early-term fetus' right to life; it is for the most part a universal view."

"Early term"???? What on earth do you think the partial birth abortion debate was about - for just one thing? I dont think you are any way NEARLY as "well informed" as you pretend to be.

Nor is there a "universal view" that abortion is as morally acceptable as you would claim. VERY few support it in principle to the degree to which you seem to, though of course you confined most of your "argument" to the zygote stage, were it hardly is an issue in FACT. "Zygotes" are rarely "aborted."

And even if it were a "universal view" there is no reason that universal view is the line drawn in the "right place."

Dissenter57: "You are entitled to have an opinion, but the rest of us are fully entitled to disregard it."

Well now, that is MOST liberal and generous of you!! Duh. Have I claimed otherwise than that you are entitled to "disregard" my view???? (Another straw man....)

Dissenter57: "We as a society have placed such a value on individual autonomy that we can say that it trumps the fetus' right to life, and our laws reflect that judgment."

So what? The question is: SHOULD our laws reflect that judgement? I say no, because I recognise the obvious humanity of the fetus. And to paraphrase what YOU stated earlier, our freedom ends where others are harmed by our actions.

Is there any OTHER circumstance in which YOU would give parents the right to kill their children? Just curious.

Dissenter57: "Who died and made you our dictators?"

Silly question. So because I believe that parents shouldnt kill their unborn children, I am now a "dictator"??? As I said earlier, your poor ability to insult your opponent does nothing to either convince him to your side, or further your argument, such as it is...

Dissenter57: "You can protest that your argument is strictly a "humanitarian" one,

It is.

Dissenter57: "but on closer investigation, it scarcely rises to the level of sophistry.

?????

Dissenter57: "It represents nothing more than your own provincial value judgments -- which are entitled to respect as value judgments, but are not compelling to society as a whole."

All ANYone's opinions are - are their own "provincial value judgements." So what? That is all YOUR opinions are - I HOPE!! At least they should be. YOURS. And who argued that "society" should be "compelled" to follow either mine or yours????? Oh. yes. Yet anOTHER... strawman....

Dissenter57: "I do, however, care about the State unnecessarily imposing unacceptable risks upon its citizens"

Funny that. And in a way we can agree. I cant stand when the state imposes unacceptable risks on ANYone.... least of all the most vulnerable of all... the children who have to misfortune to reside in their mother's wombs who are slated for abortion, with the full approval of that same state. Now THERE's a sledgehammer worthy of the name!!





Dissenter57
And as for when the "soul" supposedly "enters the body" that is a religious concept in which I have absolutely NO interest. I dont know why YOU keep bringing religion into this... and then project your tendencies to your opponents...

turkey baster
we couldn't attack your 18-year-old daughter on the street with a turkey baster and force her to host a zygote.
----------------
you realize that the zygote is alive whether or not you find a woman who will provide a home. The line you're drawing has nothing to do with life or death. It the same as if i tried to force a two year old onto your 18 year old daughter. She is under no obligation to be host for either the zygote or the toddler because she is not a parent of either of them.

Ninth Amendment
Simple question for you, Drew: Do we give up rights in order to be effectively governed? Or, to put it another way, does the government give us rights, or take them away?
---------------
D57, thank you for this explanation. The obvious answer is that rights are pre-government and governments should exist in order to protect people's rights.

The interpretation you seem to give to this amendment is scary. If the courts can declare at any moment what is an unenumerated right, then we don't have the rule of law but the rule of an oligarchy.

Wikipedia has a nice article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution.

Mr. Tribe agrees with Scalia which should definitely cause a warp in the time-space continuum. Here's the Tribe quote (it's shorter):"It is a common error, but an error nonetheless, to talk of 'ninth amendment rights.' The ninth amendment is not a source of rights as such; it is simply a rule about how to read the Constitution."


Without religious absolutes...
D57, absolutes are not necessarily religious. For example, the entire idea of "rights" is an absolutist view. It's obvious that you're pretty absolutist against the invasion of government into our personal lives. Rightly so. But don't pretend that such a view, along with your obvious confidence in the rightness of your view, isn't absolutist.

Furthermore, just because someone's view is based on religion (which isn't any of us apparently), doesn't mean the person is wrong. The real issue is how well the person can defend that view versus the opposing view. So, tossing around accusations of religion is truly irrelevant. Stick to the arguments.


assume that life begins at conception
Actually, there is no need to assume a fact that is incontravertible. It's strictly a scientific question that has been answered by science long ago. Life begins at conception. Afterall, only living things grow. Junior's growth is extremely rapid from one cell to 8 or 9 pounds in nine months.

Society values...
You say that society values freedom from responsibility more than the lives of these unborn children. Perhaps, so. Certainly, 48 million preborn human beings in the U.S. slaughtered is evidence that you may be right.

By why is this so? Most people haven't been confronted by the truth of what abortion is. They willingly believe the lies about that the baby is a blob of tissue. When many people see the truth, it causes them to change their position. A woman at work said she was OK with abortion until she saw a picture of a fetus at 7 weeks. Pregnancy centers report a 90% success rate in dissuading women from abortion when the women see an ultrasound.

People will also oppose abortion because it is extremely violent. Most people don't want freedom from responsibility if it involves tearing a baby limb from limb. But most people don't know that this what surgical abortion is.

Of course, it's more difficult for people to relate to a newly conceived zygote because she doesn't yet have the body features which we normally attribute to human beings. In other words, she doesn't look like us. Notice that this exactly the philosophy used by bigots to justify hatred and discrimination. When people realize that abortion is just another form of violent and lethal discrimination, they won't support it. The key is education.

Dissenter57
... So... what's your point?

Roe gave the constitution the shaft
There is no need to sodomize the Constitution over this issue.
------------------
Too late, as you and Tribe have admitted, Roe vs Wade sodomized the Constitution. It needs to be overturned. This is key to education. Once the law is put back in the hands of the citizens, a good debate will expose abortion for the atrocity that it is. Roe has got to go.

Abortion is not a federal issue
It belongs to the states.

you misinterpret the ninth
"Does the government need to invade this right in order to fulfill its charter?" If the answer is no, the legislation at issue is unconstitutional. And from that, you get Roe v. Wade.
------------------
Ahh, but you misinterpret the ninth amendment. You truly think it is an open ticket for justices to make up whatever they want. That is called tyranny.

i think Scalia actually says it better than Tribe did:
"the Constitution’s refusal to 'deny or disparage' other rights is far removed from affirming any one of them, and even farther removed from authorizing judges to identify what they might be, and to enforce the judges’ list against laws duly enacted by the people."

In other words, the ninth amendment is an open ticket to define additional rights but not for the judges to do the defining. It's the people, either directly or through their representatives, who may legislate additional rights.

Roe is an example of judges making stuff up on the fly. Obviously this tyranny isn't authorized by the ninth amendment.

wrong question
"Does the government need to invade this right in order to fulfill its charter?" If the answer is no, the legislation at issue is unconstitutional. And from that, you get Roe v. Wade.

In the case of Roe, this was the wrong question. The correct question was "Is it reasonable for state governments to protect unborn human beings?" The answer would have been "yes" and the state laws should have stood.

killing babies is not a natural right
The contract recognizes pre-existing rights, which are logically derived (think of the "rights" you would have if you lived on a desert island; those are our "natural rights").
-------------------------
And "the right to kill your baby" isn't a logically derived right or in any way a natural right.


Dissenter57
This is just pathetic.

Dissenter57
I'm just wondering, idly, whether this is the sum total of the size of your mind after all that "law school"??? Are we reduced to THIS?

Jezzzzz. What a waste of an education. You may have memorised a lot of disconnected facts, and scraps of law knowledge, but you havent learned much. At all.

When you arent copying long tracts of law references to post, you dont make ANY sense. you also seem completely incapable of actually grasping anything new. Same old same old...

xxooxxxo
i think this is the end. you say "no drew you're wrong" and i say "no D57, you're wrong."

it was destined to end this way. to part on a friendly note, thanks D57 for an interesting conversation. i even learned a thing or two.

JJ, thanks to you too.
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