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Wednesday, February 14, 2007
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Will You Be My Vagina-tine?
by Kathleen Parker
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WASHINGTON -- In the scheme of things, how and whether people celebrate Valentine's Day doesn't usually qualify as one of the world's more pressing concerns.

We're at war, after all. Who cares whether men and women find each other in a romantic clutch on a day already corrupted by ceaseless commercialism?

But Valentine's Day does matter because, no longer a holiday of hearts and flowers, it has become a feminist political vehicle in the gender wars. Think armada.

Usurped in 1998 by Eve Ensler and her vagina warriors -- conscripts to Ensler's blockbuster play ``The Vagina Monologues'' -- Feb. 14 is now called ``V-Day.'' That stands for violence, victory and vaginas -- not exactly a compelling prompt to uncork the Veuve Clicquot.

Ensler's V-Day, unlike the lowly valentine, isn't a small gesture. It is an institution on many college campuses, a global movement and a multimillion-dollar industry aimed, at least initially, at stopping violence against women and girls.

No one can argue against such a noble cause, even if it does mean pretending that talking publicly about one's privates is a sign of intellectual vigor. But let's be honest as long as we're being open: The subtext of the monologues is implicitly anti-male -- misandrist messages pimped as high art.

For anyone left on the planet who doesn't know what the monologues are, they're a series of soliloquies in which characters wax indelicately about their delicates. Subjects include rape, incest, domestic battery, genital mutilation, lesbianism and, shall we say, self-discovery.

One can read Ensler's book in about two cups of coffee -- or two stiff drinks, if women rhapsodizing about their inner sanctum isn't your cuppa tea.

It can't be denied that Ensler hit the G-spot when she conceived of her one-woman play. Apparently, women around the globe were amazed and delighted to learn that other people had one, too!

Ensler has gotten rich and, to her credit, has raised more than $30 million to help oppressed and abused women, especially those in other countries where golf club memberships haven't yet risen to the level of a human rights issue.

Today the monologues are performed in dozens of countries and on hundreds of college campuses, with attendant smaller dramas that range from the silly to the obscene. Ubiquitous on participating campuses are orgasm workshops, sex toy parties, V-shaped lollipops and the occasional supersized dirigible.

Not to be a spoilsport, but it's not as though vaginas have only suddenly come to mankind's attention. And the Big O, though universally regarded with awe, is not advanced physics.

Nevertheless, Ensler has been able to recruit scores of self-regarding sophisticates and celebrities to join in her male-bashing fest, while all but the innocent nod and applaud as though these rants of dysfunction were paths to enlightenment.

At least the celebs who queue up to give voice to Ensler's demons are fully adults. More insidious is the V-invasion of campuses where young women absorb and parrot the ideology of man's badness.

In such an overtly hostile environment, it's little wonder that men have turned to playmates of the pixelated variety and that doctors report a rise in impotence among college males.

It would be delightful to ignore the monologues, but at a time when even the very personal is political -- and sex drives politics, policy and whole economies -- vagina-ism is as innocuous as a virus.

Ensler and disciples, indeed, have recently focused their sights on more ambitious goals.

Last month, V-warriors merged with anti-warriors in the peace march on Washington, where Ensler joined such anti-war luminaries as Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon. Clarifying her agenda, Ensler said in a statement:

``We are saying that if a government supports the use of force, weapons, violence as a method of control and dominance, this models and gives license to the same kind of behavior at home.''

Deconstructing Ensler's free-associative proclamation, we see that using force in war to control and dominate the enemy leads inevitably to patriarchal violence against women at home. That's quite a leap of logic.

If Western civilization has been dominated thus far by a phallocentric patriarchy, it would seem we're heading ineluctably toward domination by a vagina-obsessed matriarchy.

Whether peace will reign upon the Earth remains to be seen. But if I were a male of the species, I'd consider manning the barricades.

And by all means, guard your weapons.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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Is it me,
or is the entire concept of the v.monologues just dumb. Except for the content matter, you'd think a kid had come up with the idea ("Yes, Mrs. Bindergarten, my story is about a bunch of people talking about their armpits..."). What saddens me is that there is an audience for this.

Big fan....
This 72-year-old great grandmother saw "The Vagina Monologues" years ago when it played off Broadway.

I am also "decent and old-fashioned, and I thought it was great -- and important.

Now, the author is using the piece to raise money for battered women's shelters and other charities.

And this Ms. Parker thinks that is wrong? This woman is worse than just a prude. She is counterproductive and dangerous.

I hope her roses wilt early.

Young men such as myself...
...all ought to be thankful that not EVERYONE is trivializing or denying the need for us. It's especialy uplifting to know that many women reject the standard feminist rhetoric, realising that a nation of emasculated men can't survive for very long and is harmful to both genders.

my 2 cents
The show is pathetic.

GGM - if to you the show is great and important, that's cool.

Kathleen Parker is a serious babe and she also uses humor, which sets her apart from about 98% of her confreres.

And it was only a matter of time before Jane Fonda got a whiff of this - pun intended - and decided to lend her august presence. Thank goodness it still hasn't dawned on her how much harm she does to ANY cause to which she attaches her august self. Perhaps someone someday on the left will summon the courage to say to here

STFU

figure it out.

Elisabeth
I think Parker's opinion is clear. She is simply observing the pathetic and crude nature of the issue regarding the Monologues. Certainly, raising money for women's shelters seems a noble cause, and she pays lip service to that.

There are people throughout the world who do not engage domestic abuse, and are not obsessed with the basics of human nature regarding male and female behavior. And a few of them observe Valentine's Day by making a romantic gesture towards their partner. This business of V-Day and the Vagina Monologues is a mildly diverting sideshow.

Agree with Parker
Much of this rhapsody with "the Vagina Monologues" is simply a vehicle for male-bashing.

I thought Kathleen Parker utilized humor in revealing this salacious obsession among some feminists.


Elisabeth...
Did you read the column? I don't think you did. I could give a sh*t either way about this subject, but the author said:

"Ensler has gotten rich and, to her credit, has raised more than $30 million to help oppressed and abused women, especially those in other countries where golf club memberships haven't yet risen to the level of a human rights issue. "

In case you didn't (or won't) understand, "to her credit..." means that the author is giving her "props" for that. What the author really takes exception with is Ms. Ensler's missive that defending one's country leads to violence against women. Let her try to say that openly in the middle east.

So anyone who disagrees with you is counterproductive and dangerous? Interesting....

Elisibeth
So, you are in favor of older lesbians seducing teen girls? This is what is advocated in one of the scenes of VM? You call yourself old fashioned, yet you find nothing wrong with reducing women to thier genitals (something chauvanists do).

Much ado about nothing
This is on college campuses, and occasionally redical left wingers go to non-college showings, true. But in the Real World (TM), this is blindingly irrelevant. We have real problems and issues to deal with, not histronics.

Besides, I have faith in the powers of $billions in marketing dollars from retailers to overcome even college PC. In the De Beers / radical feminist battle, I'd take odds on De Beers.

Elisabeth
Ms. Parker made it quite clear that the efforts on Ms Ensler's part to raise money and awareness on the issue of violence against women are quite laudable. Yet somehow, you chose to ignore that and focus on her distaste for the play. Not that you have an agenda or anything I'm sure.

As for your decency, statutory rape is indecent where I come from. Perhaps there is a different definition for that trait in your neck of the woods.

Alone
Take heart, there are many moms just like me out there who are raising our daughters to reject the feminist ideology. I feel bad for these poor, poor women who have apparently never found a man to truly love them. Very sad.

Try "Jane Eyre"
These are the words of Charlotte Bronte:

"It is vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility; they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it... Women are supposed to be very calm generally: but women feel just as men feel; they need exercise for their faculties, and a field for their efforts as much as their brothers do; they suffer from too rigid a restraint, too absolute a stagnation, precisely as men would suffer; and it is... thoughtless to condemn them, or laugh at them, if they seek to do more or learn more than custom has pronounced necessary for their sex."

Lest Bronte be misunderstood -- she (or rather, her heroine, Jane, through whose point of view she writes) is not claiming that women and men are exactly the same in ALL respects; she's arguing they are the same in THIS respect -- thinking beings, both male and female, need outlets for their creative and intellectual energies. When I first read this book as a teenager, I was delighted to see at last, put into words, the reason why I wasn't content to be a "mallrat," and why I was driven to write and to read. This book and this passage became very important to me when I was young, and remain important to this day.

But "Jane Eyre" has the added bonus of being one of the most romantic books ever written, a great read for Valentine's Day.

If you're looking for something MEANINGFUL that celebrates not only a woman's desire to be accepted and love as a thinking human being with an independent will, but also romantic passion, try "Jane Eyre." Charlotte Bronte makes her case far more eloquently, and with much greater dignity, than Eve Ensler could.

Lincoln and Parker-a Valentine Pair !
Fortunately, there are enough sensible, sensitive, sexy----YES----sexy women like Babe Kathleen, I feel no need to guard my weapon.
It is a good day, a wonderful life. There are still men and women who know how well we fit together, how nice it is to Love, and sometimes a putative weapon is like a magic wand delivering waves of O's.

Additional proof that Lincoln was a genius'" " WHATEVER WOMAN MAY CAST HER LOT WITH MINE, SHOULD ANY EVER DO SO, IT IS MY INTENTION TO DO ALL IN MY POWER TO MAKE HER HAPPY AND CONTENTED; AND THERE IS NOTHING I CAN IMAGINE THAT WOULD MAKE ME MORE UNHAPPY THAN TO FAIL IN THE EFFORT".
No joke, I am with Lincoln.

Valentine's Day
"Feb. 14 is now called 'V-Day.' That stands for violence, victory and vaginas..."

Fortunately, it only stands for these things among aging feminists and wilted flower children from a bygone era. In the hearts and minds of everyone else, that is, all normal people everywhere, the true meaning of the day remains bright and alive and vibrant. May the real and traditional spirit of Valentine's Day shine for a thousand years!

Right on...
... Take Back the Government! Let's all get to work.

Missed opportunity
Ms. Parker is my absolute favorite, and I rarely disagree with a word she writes, but she missed a great opportunity at the end of this piece. While criticizing the celebrity "Vagina Warriors" who showed up at the anti-war rally, she failed to point out the irony of their stance. In an attempt to protest violence against women, Jane Fonda and co. were protesting a war against a regime whose abysmal treatment of women is legendary.

Here Here, and more
I'd like to see more articles about misandry and the myopic nature of feminist dogma. Like nearly all tenets of the left, they will sit aside counter evidence and press on. Where it would appear admirable to raise money for battered women, who cannot agree w/ that, look to the other side.
Believe it or not, more and more studies show a different picture on domestic violence then what most think. Violence is often initiated by women (NO EXCUSE FOR MAN TO HIT OR IN ANY WAY HARM) and even when men literally crawl into a corner and make zero response, if police get involved, men are cartyed away to jail. Or, if an argument breaks out w/ yelling, and a man says, shut up!, he will be arrested for terroristic threats. These are not on the fringe Elizabeth.
It is not a zero sum game. To acknowledge female violence does not require any less effort against male violence, but thats the paradigm of the left.
Ask a V Day babe how she would like to donate to an "awareness raising" (another meaningless emoting gesture prone to libs) campaign regarding the overwhelming stats showing that women abuse, harm, and kill their kids at massively higher rates then men do. What could be wrong w/ that?

She'll say, well, they spend more time with kids...next please, and that'll be that.

Never has a group sat by and had so much taken from them and imposed upon them as 21st centuray man by V Day nutter types. From child custody to property division, women filing 75% of no fault divorce are decimating men, from college admissions to false imprisonment (even peonage imprisonment, which is expressly illegal but done routinely to "dead beat dads"), it gives new meaning to "Its a mad mad mad world"
MAD= Moms against Dads


Game over for America men and the empire
In every empire, when the women become as men, the decline is certain. Dominant females quit raising their own children by using domestice help, or fail to have children at all. Ergo, the generation that follows is submissive and non-dominant leading to a lack of business leaders, scientists, engineers. Politicians who are leaders and stand on principle disappear.

conservatism
Never has a group sat by and had so much taken from them and imposed upon them as 21st centuray man by V Day nutter types. From child custody to property division, women filing 75% of no fault divorce are decimating men, from college admissions to false imprisonment (even peonage imprisonment, which is expressly illegal but done routinely to "dead beat dads"), it gives new meaning to "Its a mad mad mad world"
MAD= Moms against Dads
**************************************
Decimating men? You don't have any issues at all, do you?

Sorry but if you can't pay to support your own children then frankly, you're a waste of skin.

Ignore it
The subject of the column is silly. The women involved seem to be unhappy and bitter. Christian men and women should ignore the prevailing culture, create a Christian (we're Latin Rite Catholics) counterculture and form families. My wife and I have. We've been married almost sixteen years, have six children whom we homeschool, and hope for more children. We have turned our backs on modern cultural norms which are endorsed by the Democratic Party and, increasingly, by the Republican Party.

It ain't necessarily so.
Making fun of implausible Bible stories is an old and honored tradition. One great specimen of this literary genre is the song "It ain't necessarily so" from the opera Porgy and Bess by American composer George Gershwin. I have yet to hear Christian right hyperventillators call for Gershwin (who also wrote "American in Paris", you probably know the tune) to be banned from US opera houses.

There is a case that some forms of Christianity mistreat women. Wives are to "submit" to their husbands.

LGM & momof5girls
Liberalgoodman, don't fall for the lies. While there are cases of "Christian" men mistreating their wives, it is my claim that those men are not true Christ followers. Some men have bullied their wives with the "submit" verse from Ephesians chapter 5 and yet they pay no attention to the call for men to "love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it." The paradox of manly Christian leadership in the home is that the man must be a good servant. If you are not a Christ follower, I'm afraid I'll never be able to explain it to you in a way that you'll understand. I don't mean that to sound pious, it's just truth.

Momof5girls, thanks for being willing to give yourself up on the battle field of political correctness. It is countercultural teach young women about Biblical submission. Too many young kids today have false beliefs about love and that it must be earned. That it is conditional rather than unconditional. The Biblical truth that you are not submitting to your spouse but to God seems lost on today's generation. Even amoungst the Christian youth of today. Keep fighting the good fight!

The V Monologues
I went with a friend last year to see them at the local University and we were appalled! The level of man-hatred was disgusting and truly terrifying. I expected violence against men to increase that weekend. Of course, as men would never report a woman being physically violent to him, I knew it would never make the news. My husband and I are planning to go this year, because he wants to see the reaction to a male being in the audience and because he wants to understand what sort of hatred is likely being taught to his daughter. The plan is to probably take her to see them the following year so that she can understand that this is the end result of the hatred of men being taught on college campuses and, in some cases, public schools.

Liberalgoodman, you are so predictable! Sigh!!!! What makes you think submission leads to mistreatment? I submit to my boss when I'm on the job and she doesn't mistreat me. It's called "getting the job done." My subordinates submit to me and I don't mistreat them. Submission is about being willing to do something for someone else. When I submit to my husband, it is a voluntary act and the flip side of it in a Christian marriage is that he has to love me as Christ loves the Church -- in other words, my husband must be willing to die for me if need be. Now THAT'S submission!!!

liberalgoodman, FROG
Let me try to enlighten you about Christian submission as one who joyfully submits to my husband's authority in our home. I do it as a sacrifice to Christ, not to my husband. This did not come easy to me when I was a new Christian. By nature I am very leadership oriented-- you know, the type "A" personality. I'm competitive, focused and generally like control. Throw in the fact that I am of Italian descent so I always have to keep my "hot blood" in check. I say all this to make the point that people would not look at me and think that I am anyone's doormat.
I willfully submit to my husband because our wagon (family) cannot have 2 lead horses. It is counterproductive. I am an equal partner with him in pulling the wagon, because it takes both of us to get the job done. My husband, being a Christian as well, knows that it is best for our family if he fully takes into consideration what my strengths are. Though I could have done quite well in the business world, my strengths are best utilized raising and homeschooling our girls. He knows that he could not do what I do.
In return for my submission he rewards me by fully carrying the burden of financially supporting us. He acknowledges my contributions to our family IN PUBLIC. I know that he would protect me to the death. He is commanded to do this in the Bible (you obviously don't read it, so I thought I'd fill you in). As an added bonus, my husband is madly in love with me and lets me know it. Yes, liberalgoodman, you must be right--my life must be a living hell, I'm just too oppressed to recognize it!!!!!
FROG has it absolutely right, husbands who mistreat their wives must not be true Christians. You cannot have Christ living in you and do such a thing. (Thank you, FROG, for the kind words, by the way).
I must end here because my oppressive husband is taking me out for dinner and dancing tonight. Will my nightmare never end????????!!!!!!!

Does feminism matter, compared to war?
Chocolate, my friends, think!

The US imports 872 million dollars worth of cocoa. Where does this cocoa come from?

529 million of it comes from one location: the ivory coast. (Aka Cote d'Ivoire)

Now, what is this country like? It sucks! There's armed rebels, high infant mortality, low life expectancy, child slavery, et cetera.

Now, imagine if the muslim minority population in ivory coast decided to shut down the chocolate production? 80% of American women, aged 18-50, would join the armed forces. Any the army lacks the capacity to train will roam the streets of liberal cities, beating the everliving "stuff" out of any communist dumb enough to wave a sign saying "No Blood for Chocolate".

All anti-male, anti-war hypocrisy will be laid bare and flushed away in the most vicious war the world has seen. Hell hath no fury like a woman deprived of chocolate. Remember, American woman kill 1 million babies a year through abortion. Do you think such people will have qualms killing those who deprive them of chocolate? NAY!

Liberalgoodman
you must not be married, or at least not married to a woman who's willing to fix your breakfast every morning, pick up your dirty laundry, or in general look after you, the kids, and the household simply because she loves you and enjoys serving her family. Too bad. There's something very satisfying in doing just that, and my daughter is I hope seeing that I enjoy doing this very thing. Submission as you assert it is NOT the Biblical definition, which is simply that of putting others before self. Never in an unhealthy way, but the fact is we all work together (because we have to!) for the good of the family. That makes me nobody's slave, thank you very much, and I would never permit any man to treat me as such. Neither should any other Christian woman allow it. As it is, the rewards for doing what is supposed to be done is a man who deeply appreciates that I'm here to do it (and consequently I have a lot more freedom to do my own thing than he does to do his own thing), kids who count themselves lucky that in this day and age when so many of their friends' parents are split or they've been raised in daycare, they've got Mom and Dad together under one roof and I'm available if a need arises. It doesn't matter who balances the checkbook or cleans out the litterbox-what matters is that we simply do those things for which we're particularly gifted and it all works out just fine.

I just had to add this in..Enjoy!
A man was sick and tired of going to work every day while his wife stayed home. He wanted her to see what he went through so he prayed: "Dear Lord: I go to work every day and put in 8 hours while my wife merely stays at home. I want her to know what I go through, so please allow her body to switch with mine for a day. Amen."

>God, in his infinite wisdom, granted the man's wish.

>The next morning, sure enough, the man awoke as a woman. He arose, cooked breakfast for his mate,
awakened the kids, set out their school clothes, fed them breakfast, packed their lunches, drove them to school,
came home and picked up the dry cleaning, took it to the cleaners and stopped at the bank to make a deposit,
went grocery shopping, then drove home to put away the groceries, paid the bills and balanced the check book. He cleaned the cat's litter box and bathed the dog. Then it was already 1P.M. and he hurried to make the beds, do the laundry, vacuum, dust, and sweep and Mop the kitchen floor. Ran to the school to pick up the kids and got into an argument with them on the way home. Set out milk and cookies and got the kids organized to do their homework, then set up the ironing board and watched TV while he did the ironing. At 4:30 he began peeling potatoes and washing vegetables for salad, breaded the pork chops and snapped fresh beans for supper. After supper, he cleaned the kitchen, ran the dishwasher, folded laundry, bathed the kids, and put them to bed. At 9 P.M. he was exhausted and, though his daily chores weren't finished, he went to bed where he was expected to make love, which he managed to get through without complaint.

>The next morning, he awoke and immediately knelt by the bed and said: -"Lord, I don't know what I was thinking. I was so wrong to envy my wife's being able to stay home all day. Please, oh! oh! please, let us trade back."

>The Lord, in his infinite wisdom, replied: "My son, I feel you have learned your lesson and I will be happy to
change things back to the way they were You'll just have to wait nine months though. You got pregnant last night."

Why
Why does every thread on this entire website turn into a sanctimonious and condescending religious rant?

It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is - you are all like the lotus-eaters in Ulysses.

Mom of 5, it's great that you are happy and have 5 children. It doesn't make you the Queen of America.

JayJay
I can't begin to understand why you'd think someone defending (again) a perspective of life about which you are apparently absolutely ignorant is condescending. If anyone is insulting, it's liberals who think women ought NOT EVER be homemakers even if that's what they want.

Momof5 and I share the same kind of life, though I believe my kids are a fair bit older. We're both homemakers, and happy to be so. How is that condescension? On the other hand, we've heard it from "feminists" and seen it on the TV talk shows (remember Phil Donahue?)and in some womens' magazines how being a homemaker is a waste of time and is demeaning to a woman's intelligence and talents, how it's the modern-day equivalent of slavery, as well as that favorite feminist bugaboo, "patriarchal oppression", and on and on, ad nauseum. Note well that any concept of "submission" is NEVER mentioned except in the most negative terms imaginable in feminist thinking. These people have no clue about the concept of serving others; no, they want to dictate to others. Hence the disaster that was the ERA (thankfully averted) as well as Mrs. Klynton's more recent push for the "village" to raise your children. So what if she baked a better cookie than Barbara Bush? She still insulted every homemaker in the country when she made her initial remark about having better things to do than stay home and bake cookies. Who is condescending, here?


Hick Rambles a little
I enjoyed the comments almost as much as the column. Having two daughters who are grown now has taught much more about women than I could have ever known otherwise. With my wife's strong example they were raised to rely on themselves first, demand that their boyfriends respect their standards or hit the road, and have an interest in what is going on in the world that they are willing to read differing viewpoints on.

The whole submission thing makes me chuckle. Momoffivegirls observations on what submission really means is spot on -- nice post.
My wife is from Asia and whenever I read or hear about the demure, meek, submissive stereotypes I laugh. Nothing could be farther from the truth - We treat one another with utmost respect in public but she has no qualms with exercising authority privately if necessary.
The real power behind a family is the wife, regardless of whether they are a stay at home mom or juggle an outside job in addition to their family. Men are just as necessary to a successful family but their roles are just different.

Smart men are the ones who revere their wife, encourage them to participate in family decisions and plans, and trust them completely with the finances. When we married I gave her my checkbook and asked her that she just make sure we had enough money for essentials and keep my spendthrift tendencies in check. Has worked out great.

The reason I mention where my wife is from is that there is an interesting contrast between a wife's role there and in the states. In Asia the wife/mother is proud of her role and sees no loss of themselves as a person and certainly not as a diminished person. In the states we have allowed ourselves to bring into question the invaluable role a wife fills that a man could never do.

That is too bad in my opinion - a model that has worked well for society for 10,000 years should not be dismissed so lightly.

While I don't care for the types of things Parker mentioned I am confident in the ability of women to see it for what it is and discard the rather extreme ideas a small group of people have publicized. 10000 years from now it might be an interesting archaic subject discussed in women's studies!

JayJay
I personally went into a religious "rant" because someone spoke an untruth about Christianity so it was my duty to defend it. Most liberals don't know much about defense, so I can understand your confusion.
I never said I was Queen of America, nor would I want to be and I could personally care less what anyone else thinks about me. My point was that I am my husband's Queen, not some doormat because I submit to my husband.
Gotta go iron hubby's shirt for our big date tonight.

Equal Rights
"We are saying that if a government supports the use of force, weapons, violence as a method of control and dominance, this models and gives license to the same kind of behavior at home."

I’m just curious…
I thought they were for equal rights for women in the military, as well. Doesn’t this mean that we shouldn’t send our women to fight in the military because they’ll come home and beat their husbands?

Please, tell me how you do it
I have an honest question for the moms who post on this board, whether they are working or stay-at-home moms. Please, PLEASE do not slam me or think that I am condescending or accusing in any way; I really do want answers, because I'm interested.

I will be getting married next year, so Valentine's Day is a happy occasion for me, not a "National Single Awareness Day" observance (as it was for many years) and certainly not an occasion for an Eve Ensler celebration. (My life has never revolved around sex, thank you very much; it's only been since I've fallen in love that I've discovered I even HAVE a sex drive. I thought I was one of those strange people that such a thing just got left out of.)
However, my future husband and I have decided to "opt out" of parenthood. We both feel that we lack the requisite patience to excel in that role. Not only that, but we're both introverts. Occasional solitude is very important to us. As adults, we understand each other and can give each other room. Our decision not to parent may make us, in the eyes of some, horrible people who 1) aren't doing our duty for the Commonwealth, and 2) shouldn't be getting married in the first place. But surely raising a child well requires more than simply reproductive parts; not everyone is good at what they'd NEED to be good at in order to raise a child well. Surely this isn't too ridiculous an assertion.

My decision not to parent dates back to something I read many years ago in a doctor's-waiting-room magazine. An interviewer asked tennis celebrity Chris Evert to name the last good book she read. Evert, a mother of young children, replied, "Read? I never get to read; I'm too busy watching 'Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.'"
Disturbed, I thought, "So having children keeps you from READING? Then how do parents set a good example by letting their children see them reading?"
Reading and writing are what I do. I can't NOT read and write. It's not a mere choice; it's a drive, an inextricable part of my identity. But I know I'm not alone in this. I know that plenty of women who DO decide to have children must surely feel, as I feel, the drive to read and to write. (Some of the female writers of Townhall.com are examples.) But HOW DO THEY DO IT?? I've never heard it explained clearly, even by my own mom, a wonderful woman who stayed at home until both my sister and I were in school.

So that's what I want to know, moms: how do you manage it?
How do you find time to read? And what do you like to read?
How do you manage to snatch the time alone that reading requires? (Reading, after all, is not a social activity.)
How do you find time to pursue activities that you enjoy (e.g. writing, painting, drawing, singing, piano-playing, or sports like tennis or golf), even if you don't work for pay?
Do you find that the Internet provides an outlet for creative and intellectual activity within the home?

I'd really like to hear what you have to say, because the subject interests me, not so much as a gender thing but as a HUMAN thing. I've long had a theory that human beings share two universal needs: 1) the need for human connection -- relationships, society, civilization; and 2) the need for autonomy, individuality -- the need for some sphere of thought and activity that is YOURS. These two basic needs don't have to be in conflict, but they often are, and I'm interested in hearing different people tell me how they've sought to resolve the conflict.

Typical Lib...
Jay-jay's one of those guys always worried that someone, somewhere might actually be happy and fulfilled. And sanctimonious? Really, you should look that up and make sure you understand it's definition as well as the object you're commenting on before trying to use it in a sentence.



will you be my vagina-tine
Kathleen,

I loved your article especially the part to man the barricades and protect your weapon. I feel sorry for the young women in our society, there are very few real men left that will make good husbands and fathers. I just hope my youngest daughter finds one, my other daughter did. I spent 20 years flying fighter jets in the USAF (F-4's and F-16’s) and have no problem being sensitive when it is warranted, but then again I'll kick your butt if its deserved. Have a Happy Valentines Day. I'm taking my best friend of the last 31+ years out for dinner and a nice relaxing evening

Blame the males
Females can only do what we let them do. We gave them sufferage, we didn't have to. We let them into the workplace, we didn't have to.

Females have one weapon to use against us, and in a day and age when there are more females than males in the country, they're amazingly still able to use it.

When males realise that they can live without their drug-addiction (sex), females will be in a world of hurt, because they will no longer be able to get males to go along with their idiotic ideas just to "get a little".

"Violence is often initiated by women (NO EXCUSE FOR MAN TO HIT OR IN ANY WAY HARM)"

The heck it isn't. You ALL need to get this through your thick skulls... EQUALITY IS EQUALITY. A male perpetrates violence on me, I'll kill him, if he leaves me alive. Maybe in two weeks in a dark alley, maybe when I get out of the hospital, but he's dead. IF a female is equal, same rule applies. Why shouldn't it?

ARE FEMALES EQUAL TO MALES OR AREN'T THEY? If they are not equal, the shut up, give up the vote, get back in the house and mind the kids. If they are equal, the they need to be held equally responsible for their behavior and suffer the same consequences. Can you imagine worrying about a guy hitting Laura Croft or any of the other two-fisted females in video games and movies? A demo for ATI video cards has a female beating the crap out of 5 obviously male ninja types. Now, is this something we believe is true and possible, or is it just a misanthropic fantasy supported by emasculated males because the female cartoon is shaped like a partially naked female? If the former, females can take their chances just like males. If the latter, then we really, seriously need to put a stop to such nonsense.

The first step is to realise that a male doesn't NEED to have sex. A man is complete unto himself, and is more than the size of his genitals.

Pamela...
in a rush, and not a mom, but married father of 3 and the issue is no different for fathers in a sense. mostly respond because i once felt very similar to you. i also crave alone time. i also read, write and play music, etc.

first answer is in response to your point about human needs - 1 human contact being first. there is no such human contact like that with your children. it's radically different than, yet of the same intensity of intimacy you have with your spouse. i didn't want children. i had no use for children. i want more now and i have 3 already. they are a challenge, they are trying, and i get all the bad stuff i expected going in and then some. but i get all this really GREAT stuff i didn't know existed, and that couldn't have been explained to me. my 7 year old was throwing up everywhere last night and just wanted me to sit with her in the bathroom while she puked and slept - just wanted to hold dad's hand. it was awesome and awe inspiring. and it always is. realize that presently you are someone who doesn't want something that you have little or no understanding of...it doesn't mean you run out and have kids, but i think it's important to keep it fixed in your minds eye.

2nd - the pattern. my whole life taught me a simple pattern. the more completely i serve only my own needs, the further and further away i get from everything i really want.

short term - i want to go out when i want, do what i want, only when i want. but if i live that way all the time i won't get to have this incredible wife that needs/demands/expects and importantly - CAN COMMAND - more from a spouse. and in the end I want her more than i want my short term things. reading would fall into this category. as would carrousing with the boys, etc. i learned to give a lot of those up and the more i give up (or 'submit') the better and sweeter my life becomes - to the point that i look for opportunities to sacrifice 'self.' whatever i sacrifice i just get back 10-fold. not surprising i guess. i've got a 4500 year old book that kind of lays the construct out that way...(for contrast - my brother on the other hand, lives in 'me first' mode exclusively, and currently is single, 40, has no real friends to speak of, plays Xbox, drinks beer, is incredibly lonely, and hasn't had a date in 5 years. he thinks i'm just lucky. i ask him if he's waiting for the girl of his dreams to knock on his door, pull up a chair, a controller and a Heineken...)

3rd - i still do most of what i want. my sacrifice - and it's not for everyone - is sleep. i get 3-5 a night. everyone else is asleep and i do what i want for 5-6 hours. but sleep is less important to me than anything else i'm doing...and after 20+ years, i'm used to the schedule.

don't know if any of that helps or not. oh - in the final analysis - no one says you have to have kids either. there is zero moral or ethical implication to this in todays day and age - certainly from a secular perspective. if there 6 people on the planet instead of 6 BIL, maybe a different case could be made...but not today. so no worries - it's all gravy for you.

Pamela
While not a mother I can offer a couple of insights about your questions. First though, I congratulate you and your fiance for talking about the kids issue. Good sign.
Having kids is largely a matter of deciding you want to sacrifice the time and some material things to bring someone into the world. Reasons for deciding to have a child vary from person to person.

For those who do have kids they spend a lot more time at home with the children and give up some of the social outings they were involved with before the child. It makes parents have to change their schedules drastically and they have a definite shared responsibility.

Because a parent is home more than those without children there is more time for reading. The kids do go to sleep long before mom and dad when younger. I keyed on your point about reading because with our kids that offered me the opportunity to read to them as babies and toddlers and to let them learn to read to me as they got older. TV and radios were turned off each evening for about an hour for this activity. You obviously know all the good reasons to be a reader but there is something very exciting about teaching a child this important part of life.

Don't let people "guilt you out" - it is your choice and if you change your mind only the two of you can know if it is right or not.

When mine were growing up I sometimes longed for a little more time for things I wanted to do but now that they are grown I realize that the time spent with them was nothing less than a blessing.I am a better person because of my kids.

I used to say that having kids is kind of like riding an express train down a mountain without brakes. You hang on for dear life, enjoy the ride and hope for the best.

JF's Reply to Conservatism
JF writes: Wednesday, February, 14, 2007 11:38 AM
conservatism
Never has a group sat by and had so much taken from them and imposed upon them as 21st centuray man by V Day nutter types. From child custody to property division, women filing 75% of no fault divorce are decimating men, from college admissions to false imprisonment (even peonage imprisonment, which is expressly illegal but done routinely to "dead beat dads"), it gives new meaning to "Its a mad mad mad world"
MAD= Moms against Dads
**************************************
Decimating men? You don't have any issues at all, do you?

Sorry but if you can't pay to support your own children then frankly, you're a waste of skin.
......................................
JF. I think you missed the point. Conservatism wasn't saying that dead beat dads shouldn't be made to pay child support. His point was the unfairness of the system. Even to the point that men suffer peonage imprisonment in many states, despite the fact that this type of imprisonment is illegal. I don't know for sure but I think he is right about it being illegal. I was told this type of imprisonment happens in FL. He was talking about the unfairness of a system towards men and using the illegally imprisionment of dead beat dads as one of the many examples he gave. I'm sure that if you will check, you'll probably find few, if any dead beat moms imprisioned.
This type of criminal justice discrimination against men also applies to the difference in punishment imposed on men versus those on women. Crimes such as child abuse, violence, murder. etc.
Take murder for example. I don't remember the exact numbers but I was watching a documentary on this subject on one of the channels on TV. Out of a 100 men sentenced to death very few got a stay of execution. Something like 25 I believe. Whereas, out of a 100 women, only somewhere around 5 were executed. Don't quote me on these figures but the point being: Americans don't believe in executing women but have very little problem in executing men.
Other examples is punishment imposed for incest, statatory rape, etc. If your interested in looking up women charged with sexual acts against children go to WorldNetDaily.com. This will also give you the type punishment they received.

Monologues
I personally enjoyed the monologues (I'm 58 yo) and thought what a great way to get all women of all ages to appreciate their bodies and themselves, especilly with the negative impact of advertising on females. I work in an ER and it is downright frightening how many females, especially young ones, are so ignorant of their own bodies and bodily functions. If anyone is threatened by this play, either they are immature or afraid of the power that they possess. Hence the rise of the patriarchical society that exists now and is responsible for the mutilation and murders of women all over the world. Kathleen is typically the cheerleader, soccer mom type IMO and to feel the need to warn men about this insidious plot by liberfeminazists is really a sad position for a mature woman to take, especially one with a voice in the media.
I can think of only one word that sums up her columns - vapid.

Pamela
I've helped raise 8 children. For a while, I was raising four on my own. Scared to death.

Anyway, you have received some very fine advise here and I don't think I could improve on any of it. I just wanted to add, that until I held my first son, I had never felt the fullfilment, the wholeness, nor the happiness that I did at that moment. I was completely in awe and I was complete. I had a woman whom I loved with every fiber of my body and now a child. What more can I ask for other than for God to give me the strength to see to their happiness and wellfare.

Later three more sons arrived. Not all at once thank God. How fantastic it was.

I think, as I did, that your children are the greatest reward that God can give you. It's up to you if you make the best of it or not.


For Colin Fiber
"Jay-jay's one of those guys always worried that someone, somewhere might actually be happy and fulfilled. And sanctimonious? Really, you should look that up and make sure you understand it's definition as well as the object you're commenting on before trying to use it in a sentence."

Hate to burst your right-wing bubble, Col, but Ihappen to be female, a mother, grandmother, married once for 47 years, and hold various graduate degrees in comparative religion and history of Christianity.

The word "sanctimonious" comes from the act of trying to make one's self appear to be a saint, or appearing saintly. And please don't critique my writing because yours if full of syntactical violations, dangling prepositions, and in fact, doesn't make sense.

liberalgoodman
You seem to be forgetting verse 21 in Ephesians chapter 5 that says "submitting to ONE ANOTHER out of reverence for Christ". That comes BEFORE the wife submitting verse. You have to read it in context, dear, in order to get the complete meaning.

My husband just taught on this Sunday morning. Another post said what I wanted to say - that you cannot have 2 kings in a household. You can't have 2 presidents run a country. You can't have 2 CEO's run a corporation.

The Bible says that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Jesus died and gave himself up for the church. Who has the greater role of submission here?

I have 3 daughters and a son, all who were homeschooled. We exposed our children to the philosophies of Gloria Steinhem, Molly Yard and other feminists. They made their own conclusions about feminism by seeing both sides of the story. They did their research about Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who was a Nazi sympathizer and supported eugenics in order to rid our country of minorities and the mentally disabled. She was a racist yet is worshipped as a saint by feminists such as Ensler.

Women's Liberation started out as a good cause, but spiraled down to feminism which is anti-male, anti-marriage and anti-family values. Ensler's V monologues do nothing but continue to spread male bashing and further separate us instead of drawing us together.

What a waste.

JayJay
We all bow to your intellect Jay Jay. After all, you have "various graduate degrees" in what looks to be a host of religious studies programs. Including apparently, the history of Christianity. And all of us stoopid Christyuns know that degree = smart and you have many degrees so you must be really smart. Maybe all of us "sanctimonious" Christians should just shut up and let you smart people with all of the degrees tell us what to think.

On the other hand, you might be a pompous anti-Christian bigot with a lot of knowledge of Christ and precious little experience of Him.

Could go either way I think.

Kath-What Bible?
Which bible are you talking about? The Douay or The King James? Old Testament/New Testament? You poor deluded little girl. Do you really think that belief in a book acts as a force-field to ward off the mala ojo? Superstition is alive and well.

Betty
Do you believe that accusing someone of superstitious belief in a book is reasonable discussion? Please show us what Bible does NOT have the book of Colossians and the relevant verses (3.18ff) therein.


bsq
Sorry I seemed to make you feel less-than-equal, and obviously put you on the defensive.

When I tell someone I am happy they have 5 kids and are happy with it, that's pretty much what I mean. Why you felt it necessary to respond with an accusation that I'm the type of (guy) who can't stand to see people happy really doesn't make any sense, now does it?

I think people should worship any way they like, everybody wants to feel good, it's human. What interests me is the choices they make, why they make them, and how it affects people whose choices are different.

There's no need to be so threatened- if your choices work for you, stick with them, by all means.

JayJay
degrees don't mean a thing to Christ.

Betty......
King James Ephesians 5:21-32.

And thanks for your display of tolerance of others' beliefs.

And I"m not deluded. 28 years of a great marriage to a wonderful man who loves me, and 4 wonderful kids who are well-adjusted, happy, content VIRGINS who exercise self control.

What more could a mother want?

I only hope you know the happiness and contentment I do!

Children
Pamela-Raising children is the most demanding task God ever set Woman and Man to do. If you are like Betty; it is definitely not for you. Based on her postings at TH, she is self-centered, self-serving and vindictive. Kimmie and her well represent the "me" generations.

These are qualities that do not help one to be a good parent. Parents must be Family-centered, God-serving, forgiving, respectful and loving if they hope to raise people who are productive and successful.

Get right with God and whether or not you have children, you will be happy.

Kath
Why do Christians always feel that they are drowning in a wave of hostile intolerance, but are never tolerant of others' beliefs?

Fundamentalists of all religions are the most intolerant people that I come across - yet they feel the most attacked. If you doubt me, just read through almost any thread on this blog, all of which start out with some secular topic and then rapidly become a kind of religion-slam, with people quoting verses at each other and joining in a kind of group hug of self-praise while hurling insults at anyone who doesn't want to join in. Yes, I've had my own snarky moments, it is kind of a knee-jerk reaction to it, and I always end up feeling as though I've been sucked in and dragged down.

I know, my own fault. But I am usually stunned at how closed off and dead-end these discussions are - they are the classic echo-chamber.

JayJay
I'm not the one that accused you of being the "type of (guy) who can't stand to see people happy". That was Colin Fiber. I merely commented on your response to him. However, your original post:

"Why does every thread on this entire website turn into a sanctimonious and condescending religious rant?

It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is - you are all like the lotus-eaters in Ulysses.

Mom of 5, it's great that you are happy and have 5 children. It doesn't make you the Queen of America."

seemed unnecessarily vituperative.

But it was your somewhat patronizing response to Colin that piqued my interest. While Colin's comments about you (why is it that criticisms of our writing and use of language seem to sting so deeply?) was less than charitable to be sure, your response was even less so. And surely you must not have been surprised that someone would react when you skewered an entire group of people, namely Christians. And surely you can see that they (Christians) might take it that way. You can't toss out words like "sanctimonious" and "condescending" without realizing the potential for insult.

I ceased to be impressed with university degrees when I began to see that the ability to take tests and write papers did not directly correlate to productivity and usefulness in the real world. Not that these degrees may not actually indicate some specialized knowledge but they seem to me to be among the most useless methods by which to judge the character of another individual.

And I don't think I understood the lotus eaters reference. I seem to recall that Ulysses observed that the lotus eaters forgot their homeland and family. I don't see the connection you're making here.

I love to offer an apologetic but I am outgrowing defensiveness I think. I don't feel threatened. I enjoy this!

JayJay
All I did was answer a question that was asked of me. If you read the post, you will see that I was refered to as a "deluded little girl". I responded to it, that's all.

You have your opinions and I have mine. My opinion is that most liberals scream for tolerance, but are not tolerant of Christians. Christians aren't allowed to have opinions that don't agree with theirs.

Guess I should get used to it though, since Jesus said that we would be hated for our beliefs. I should just keep quiet now............ ;-)

Don't let Vulgar "Womyn" Ruin Just Cause
There are many parts of the world where women are mistreated. There is also the sick and appalling practice of sex trafficking, which victimizes young girls.

Women's rights should be taken back by women who respect men, and who act like ladies - Or, at least, know that certain anatomy should only be discussed with a doctor or with one's partner in private.

The V-Monologues' success is no surprise in view our society's acceptance of vulgarity in general.

Those who rant about feminazis need to be aware that real women's rights heroines, such as Susan B. Anthony, would be rolling over in their graves. She was outspokenly opposed to abortion, as was the entire women's sufferage movement.

Shared Hope International is an example of an organization that helps girls escape from sex trafficking. Its founder praises men as defenders of the weak and vlnerable. She enlists them, as well as women in the fight against forced prostitution. Her noble view of masculinity stands in contrast to anti-male rhetoric. Seek out organizations like these instead of Ensler's V-Day group.

(The V-Monologues' success is no surprise in view our society's acceptance of vulgarity in general. )

Big Fan Elisabeth
Elisabeth writes: Wednesday, February, 14, 2007 5:33 AM
Big fan....
This 72-year-old great grandmother saw "The Vagina Monologues" years ago when it played off Broadway.
I am also "decent and old-fashioned, and I thought it was great -- and important.
*****************************************

If the play is "great" for someone who is "decent and old-fashioned," then why would they choose such a disgusting title?

Listening to an ad spot for the thing is like watching a TV commercial for yeast infection medicine.

Ick!

If they want to make an impact on me, they will find something less yucky to call it.

Exhibitionism and Fact Faking
The play is simply an excuse to be exhibitionist and pretend you're intellectual. Lors knows American women love exhibitonism. This gives them a way to do this and be above reproach. Feminists have wanted this for years.

But the idea of "stopping violence against women" is inherently sexist because it assumes violence against men is A OK! Also, it's dishonest because men and boys are more often the target of violence than women.


Mountain Rose
Apparently, "decent and old fashioned" in Elisabeth's opinion, includes an acceptance and perhaps even a celebration, of statutory rape of the type depicted in the play. In fact, it appears that she thinks it's "great--and important". "Kindly" and "Grandmother" just don't seem to fit together the way they used to.

Are Feminists Really Causing Impotence?
"...doctors report a rise in impotence among college males."

Making a causal connection between feminism and impotence is a position fraught with problems. It is doubtful that campus intimidation, by a group of marginal females, would drive a healthy male into permanent hiding. The earliest human females would probably make a modern feminist seem accomodating. I can't speak for all males- only for the ones whom I have known, had the occasion to speak or, or not heard ridiculed- but my sex drive has as little to do with the harried actions of feminist hyenas as it does with lunar cycles.

What is more likely is that college-aged men are feigning impotence to obtain "prescription assistance."

Vaginas aside....
I have seen "The Monologues" and found it satirical, mildly entertaining, and certainly man-bashing (in some ways). How shocked was I, afterall, television has been displaying this type of bashing for sometime ("Married with children", "The Simpsons"), where the inept Father struggles while the enlightened family giggles at his foibles.

It's just entertainment folks, "Jugglers of our time" if you will.

If she manages to give monies to worthy causes while people are entertained with her brand of fem/man-hating agendi -who cares....I think it's more art imitating life, frankly.

Meanwhile, as the Family declines (what 70-80% divorce rate?), young men are raised without Fathers (and then likewise take-it-on-the-lamb when responsibility comes their way). Young girls realize more & more that men won't be around for the important stuff, and are taken to do it all on their own (poorly, I might add), then raise their young men & gals without aid of Father and continue the vicious circle of stupidity.

I suppose children learn from their Parents one way or another, eh?


God help us.


Pamela
It is wonderful that you are taking the time to seriously consider this before getting married.
First of all, if you are deeply committed to not having children then I fully support you. There are far too many people out there who never should have had them. Just concentrate on being an excellent wife.
However, don't let your fear of not being able to have "me time" keep you from the most wonderful experience in life. The simple answer to your question of "how do you do it?" is-- a little at a time. When the kids are little you may not have big chunks of time to read etc., but you will have plenty of 15 minute windows that you must learn to capitalize on. Have a book with you at all times when you leave the house. I love the needlearts, and it is amazing what I have accomplished in 15 minute increments over 18 yrs of motherhood!! There will be times that you WILL have to lay down your hobbies, but it will only be for a season. One of those times for me was when all 5 girls were age 8 and under and the twins were newborns and I just started homeschooling.Yikes-- I barely had time to pee, let alone anything else.
Now as they are getting older I have much more time to devote to things I enjoy. Bottom line is that if you are incapable of self sacrifice you should not parent and you should not marry-- it is a necessity for both. Best wishes!!

JayJay
sarcasm aside (challenging as it may be for you, but please try), does the fact that we are all "special" in Jesus' eyes mean anything to you? Or does your acidic/cyncial comments reflect the suspicions of many here that your degree(s) represents far more to you than Jesus does? Your statement "I think people should worship any way they like, everybody wants to feel good, it's human" sure seems to affirm this assertion. The fact your attacks don't align with this conveniently wonderful sounding bit of relativistic drivel is starkly evident. Using your logic, you might as well go ahead and call Jesus a "deluded, narrow-minded, intolerant fundamentalist" too. At least you'd be intellectually consistent in your hatred.

Frookie, Alive, Mountain, Wait, et. al.

Mom of 5 said,
"I feel bad for these poor, poor women who have apparently never found a man to truly love them. Very sad." ("these" referring to women who care about women's issues) - if this is not condescending and sanctimonious, what is?

As for people who are upset that I have degrees, it is not new to find any kind of anti-intellectualism among the extreme right -wing. It happens in all cultures, has happened throughout history, because it implies freedom to question and think outside of dogma. It's no accident that Galileo was put under arrest for having a non-religiously approved adea about the sun and the earth. As for advanced education, you shouldn't be so defensive about that either, if it were just a "matter of knowing how to take tests" it is unlikely that we would have penicillyn, transplants, or airplanes.

Pamela, I would look elsewhere if you are searching for practical, realistic advice about the nature of raising children. It definitely has its rewards for most people, but not for everybody. Not everybody makes a good parent - I suggest you look into yourself, get the facts, and decide. It's important, and not anything you can do over if it doesn't work for you.

Alive, Wait, Mountain, rchd: It's interesting to me (and possibly of use in my next article) that you have variously referred to vaginas (and the word vagine) as pathetic, crude, disgusting, salacious, and vulgar. Now I'm sorry for you.

Pamela
I agree: the column as well as some comments are excellent.

Like you I didn't want to give up my SELF. I was looking to be a career professional, no kids. Then I looked at the childless people I knew, both by choice and not. I didn't like what I saw. (your opinion may differ)

So after 9 years of marriage, we purposely conceived our first child. Wow. What an amazing experience. What I gained overshadowed everything I "gave up".

We have 3 children, homeschool, and I work in a family-owned business on my own schedule. Did I give up material wealth, possessions? Some, sure. But it isn't important to me now.

We humans have a tendency to make time for those things we "must" do.

I also MUST read. I read 10+ books per week - of every description (library card - I used to buy the books!). I play on the internet a couple of days a week. I also compose music. Like Colin - I just sleep less, then catch up when I can. It works for me. Sleep is so over-rated. :)

Priorities are critical: God, husband, children, work, me.

Only regret: I didn't have more children - now I'm too old.

Happily Married: 26 years to Mr. Wonderful - I could not have this great life without him. We both put God first and that is the anchor of our marriage. Everything else falls into place.

WOW
There seem to be a lot of people here who have strong opinions about vaginas!!!

No bubble burst JJ...
...nice degrees. I'm a highschool dropout and I apologize ahead of time if my lack of verbal skills contribute to your confusion. That said, the definition you were searching for was "hypocritically pious or devout." Do you claim the requisite 'inside' knowledge of the individuals gathered here to prove the first word of that definition? Then forgive me for not being suitably in awe of the relative real world differences in our educational background. I'm clearly disadvantaged here.

All I can surmise is that your own internal projections form the basis of your exigesis - not that there is anything surprising in this - show me a man (or woman) and I'll show you a hypocrite. On THIS basis it can be said that you conclude correctly - but on no other. (Or are you ready to claim you are not a hypocrite and never have been? If no to that, then just what IS your point dear?)

Now, as for inside knowledge, what you probably need to know is this: The Christian understands first and foremost his own relation to God, and God's perfection. We are fallen. No more so or less so than the non-christian. Exactly the same in fact. Asked directly, only the immature christian could even think of answering otherwise. Given this universal doctrinal understanding, is 'sanctimony' in the accepted definitive sense even possible? Not if language means anything. Are there alternatives to what you suspect is and describe as 'sanctimony'? Of course - many. As for you own personal standards - professing NO standard other than a personal one, or some other standard that is not transcendant and of God Himself, does not in fact alleviate you of the truths inherent in that relative state. A fallen hypocrite you remain.

As for the why of my accusation that you just can't stand to see others happy, 5 children and a husband does not happy and fulfilled make you. It's the old non-sequitor defense. As support for my 'accusation' - I would have used the word 'observation' - it's found within your own posts. You, with foreknowledge and a large supply of vocabulary words, chose instead to malign all christians on this site without thought, conscience or remorse. And you chose to build and attack a strawman to do it. Again, if language has any meaning, there's only one 'bigot' on this thread...and you're wearing her pants. You'll never be less than bitter until you confront this within yourself. I wish you luck with that. Peace peaches...






Jay Jay
I have degrees also. I choose the life I have - daily. Your scourging of the moms responding here makes you look vengeful, trite, and jealous, as does your advice to Pamela to ignore them. I hope that is not so.

Are you a northerner? IF so it explains your misunderstanding of the vulgarity that is Ms.Ensler's "play" and the decline of national morality. If a southerner, you really ought to be ashamed because you should know the importance of decency.

If you are part of the national shame that are liberal college institutions, count your days, as they are numbered. Many of us no longer send our offspring to you for publik indoktrination. We are opting for apprenticeships, tech schools, and conservative colleges. Voting with our $, we are.

From reading your posts, I gather you need to get a dog. They've been shown to help lonely people live longer, happier lives. Seriously.

Hey Bartender ~
Put me down as "pro" vagina. I like them A LOT. Preferrably comma'd in reverse -

Colin Fiber, Vagina, Pro.

Thanks.

Colin Fiber - you rock!
LOL! Ain't no "degree" got anything on you darlin'. I suspect you were bored mindless - hence school dropout. Don't let that bug you. You display plenty of brain power. I love reading your posts. God bless.

gee lady reb....
stop! it ain't me. i'd tell you the (whispers a word) story of how that happened, but i don't want to set JJ off. you know - ixna on the odGa alkta weetheartsa... :)

JayJay criteria for truth
"I feel bad for these poor, poor women who have apparently never found a man to truly love them. Very sad." ("these" referring to women who care about women's issues) - if this is not condescending and sanctimonious, what is?

What is? How about supplanting your own negative assumptions for what was probably a genuine sentiment of empathy?

I'm hardly "upset" or "defensive" (or impressed, quite frankly) that you have degrees/advanced education. It's interesting that you continue to assert that everyone is. I suppose that's necessary to sustain your position that Christianity=anti-intellectualism. I work in a medical center with doctors who are Christian. I go to a church with pastors who have masters degrees in theology. My friends who are Christian are also attorneys at law, nurses, paralegals, financial consultants, engineers etc.

The most intellectually brilliant people I know are Christians. But they are also the first people to proclaim that their education is not the pinacle of importance in their life. That's reserved for that guy many prefer reducing to "no different than all the other truths".

The topic of truth. In your "everyone should worship the way they want if it makes them feel good" (with the latest addendum) "...as long as it's not dogma and determined by independent thinking" criteria, the obvious question begged is where does truth fit into that? Moreover, how is that not the most narrow minded set of guidelines to believe anything believed by mankind?


Last comment
The most interesting thing about these responses is the sheer venom, which I usually find is a response to fear.

If I were a moralizing, devil-baiting, fundamentalist, could I get to be as open and kind as the rest of you?

Jesus must be so happy.

venom Jay Jay?
you mean like "If I were a moralizing, devil-baiting, fundamentalist, could I get to be as open and kind as the rest of you?" kind of venom?

I scanned a couple of posts down and I'm not sure who you're referring to. Lady Rebel was a little tart I guess - but certainly not over the top. Responses were direct to your charges.

Colin didn't come close to the venomous line, he just kind of stripped you naked and left you standing there.

Frookie didn't come anywhere close either. Is there someone else you were referring too? Cause you and those 3 in a room together and you're the only venomous fool I see in the group. All your education, and the best you've got is an ad hominem attack aimed at no one?

Weren't you the one that was just decrying the anti-intellectual nature of the Christian poster on this site? Do you understand what 'anti-intellectual' means or do you need Colin to explain that one to you too? I've got venom for you lady - and I'm not bound by their ethics. As far as they go to make me rethink that situation, people like you do far more so. The best the secular world can produce is...YOU? You just got intellectually Beeeyatch slapped by a HS dropout for God's sake and you're apparently too proud, dumb or both to realize it!

Better get back under your hood and sheet before someone on campus sees you here...

And you were expecting what again?
JayJay writes: Wednesday, February, 14, 2007 2:54 PM
Why
"Why does every thread on this entire website turn into a sanctimonious and condescending religious rant?

It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is - you are all like the lotus-eaters in Ulysses.

Mom of 5, it's great that you are happy and have 5 children. It doesn't make you the Queen of America. "


That's your 1st post on this thread. It, in typical backhanded and cowardly lib fashion, attacks a good percentage of the folks on this site. On your last post you berate the same people for a lack of kindness and inhibition. Can I ask in all seriousness what you reason you believe you have the right to expect such treatment with this kind of introduction to yourself? Or is it, as we've all experienced time and time again - that a multi-grad degree holding liberal has no answers beyond this emotionally charged childish drivel. And you wonder why we don't respect you? It boggles the intellect. (you'll just have to trust me on that account.) I can't figure out if you don't know english, can't understand cause and effect, are ignorant of social grace, or are just completely unhinged from all experiential reality. Or all of the above for that matter. The venom you detect I think might not be anything more than the mass frustration of 50% of the population realizing that the other 50% reasons the same way you do and it's getting worse, not better. The only good news is that mass depopulation events tend work in our favor. Most of you die, and those left get serious (or 'converted' if you prefer) in a hurry. When Cindy Sheehan finds herself standing between a marine with a rifle and a jihadi with bomb belt and a machete - we ALL know which way that mindless b#tch is gonna run. Boo-hoo on your hurt feelings. Next time don't invite 'em.

Thanks, guys
Your replies have been thoughtful and non-condemnatory. I appreciate that. You've offered plenty of food for thought.

LadyRebel and Moderate Hick, I think I liked your responses best; you're bibliophiles like me; you understand someone who thinks a life without reading is no life at all. And you've put silly ol' Chris Evert to shame. THE BEST PARENTS ARE THE ONES WHO READ -- the ones who read to their kids, and the ones who let their kids see them reading (because kids learn far more from what they see you do than from anything you say). If something is important enough to you, you find time to do it. Like LadyRebel says, it's all a matter of priorities.

But all of you have done as I'd hoped, and I'm grateful.

JayJay "anti-intellectual" exit
sorry to hear that your intellectual fervor has seemed to run out. I would have been sincerely interested to read what your standard of truth is.


Mercury cures Jay Jay of delusions
"LadyRebel was a little tart...." Oops, I have that tendency. My apologies. Your analysis was excellent, Mercury.

Jay Jay said:
Last comment
The most interesting thing about these responses is the sheer venom, which I usually find is a response to fear.
If I were a moralizing, devil-baiting, fundamentalist, could I get to be as open and kind as the rest of you?
Jesus must be so happy.

*********************
I'm continually amazed to see simple disagreement called hate and venom. Is there a paradigm shift in vocabulary? Are we truly losing our language to that extent? And, as to fear, of what?

Neither am I sure to what you're referring with the "moralizing, devil-baiting, fundamentalist" remark? I know some people carry the name of Christian who act anything but, but I haven't seen that here from these people in this thread. Are you calling sharing personal experiences "moralizing?"

Jesus was meek, as in submitting Himself to the will of the Father. non-Christians often confuse meek with weak, and expect Christians to act in a cowardly or weak way, when just the opposite is true of true Christianity. IMO, Christians are warriors, first, last, always.

My submitting myself to Jesus makes Him "happy," and makes me very "happy." Correcting you of error could also be a cause for "happiness."

I'm truly sorry if you've had a bad experience or suffered loss of some kind. Knowing about Jesus is good, KNOWING Him will change your whole life. He gives peace.

Godspeed.

JayJay
I'm sorry if your took my first post here to be condescending when I said that I feel bad for these women mentioned in the column. My heart truly does ache for them,as it does for you. I don't know what horrible thing (besides a very liberal college education) that could have possibly caused you to have such hatred for Christ. We have no fear of you, why should we? If you read Revelations you will see that in the end God wins. What we do fear is that people like you will die never knowing the love of God and at that point it is too late. The reason why I sit here and write when I have a million other things to do is that I am trying in my small way to correct some untruths about Christians, but more importantly about Christ. We are not perfect, but He is. We have seen what can happen when Christians remain silent. Of course we want you to be like us---pathetic sinners who were blessed enough to have knocked on Christ's door and have Him open it, forgive us of everything we've ever done or ever will do, give us unconditional love, offer us guidance and strength and provide for us everything we will ever need. I'm sorry if you think that us wanting that for you is a terrible thing worthy of the venom that is constantly spewed in our direction.

well said LadyRebel & momof5girls...
...might I just add, as Christians, we learn that in God's eyes we are all "masterpieces" that are broken because of our choice to sin. You, JayJay, are no different.

It took 33 years for me to finally acknowledge that God was tapping on my shoulder. It was an entirely rough 33 years at that. Because of the work of God in my heart/life, I came from living wholey in sin (too long a list to mention here) to living by God's beautiful Grace (which, btw, I clearly don't deserve). As momof5girls mentioned, I too am certainly not perfect, but I think always improving is an appropriate descriptive of God's ongoing work.

It astounds me to hear the transformative acts of God in people's lives. I'm not referring to hand to the head "you're healed" kinda stuff. I'm talking about real, redemptive life stories from people who were searching, suffering and crying out for answers, to eventually find them in God.

The problems of the world are far too big for mere "intellectuals" to solve. I don't mean that as a cut on you or anyone who isn't Christian. I mean that in the most sincere way possible. Without God's work, the mind can still do amazing things. With God, we can do things we simply cannot not wrap our minds around.

All that said, I don't think your (JayJay) mind was an accident. I think your mind and intelligence was a gift. It's far too complex, organized and wonderful to be just a bunch of cells that "evolved" into what it now is over thousands of years from nothing.

I think God continues to "tap" on the shoulders of His lost kids. Possibly using even the correspondence spurred from a trivial article like "Will You Be My Vagina-tine".

JF, I hope you read this
early in the thread I made some comments about how the family laws have played a role in the successful overcorrection in gender issues. I mention no-fault divorce and child support, imprisonment of dead beats, and the existence of anti poenage laws.

She (JF I assume is she) slams w/ the very predictable "if you dont pay support you are not worth your skin" or some such blather.

I am happily married, have never had a child support issue to deal w/ , I have 4 kids, same wife, boring and stable, and I almost included that disclaimer in my post because men who have been wronged are written off as bitter.

Its the blinders and denial that cause JF's reaction (I used to react exactly that way myself)that will keep the status quo, and usher in even more rapid destruction of the Biblical family model. No one should be able to unilaterally decide to break a contract w/ zero cause, and not only expect no penalty, but even be able to penalize the other party who wants to keep the contract. Thats why there used to be grounds for divorce (provisions for breaking the contract, up to and including that if both parties simply want to break it) But the situation is, if wife files a no fault divorce (and husband wants to save the marriage), he is kicked out and a visitor to his kids. If wife and husband agree they should divorce, and either one files, he is kicked out and a visitor to kids, and if husband files no fault divorce and wife doesn't want it, he is kicked out and a visitor, and if wife commits adultry under a stop light at high noon and husband files, he is kicked out and a visitor to his kids.

Thats why women file 80% of divorces. It has zero to do w/ wanting to support your kids, and everything to do with wanting to stay married.

You, SF, if you are female, will never experience the "wrong" side of this, and if you are male, most men simply assume other men did something wrong to provoke a divorce. But, when they get their own bell rung, they convert immediately and get the gift of clarity.

Mom of 5 Girls
You said "I'm sorry if your took my first post here to be condescending when I said that I feel bad for these women mentioned in the column. My heart truly does ache for them,as it does for you. I don't know what horrible thing (besides a very liberal college education) that could have possibly caused you to hate Christ"

Mom, please don't waste your pity on me - I live a happy, productive, wonderful, and deeply spiritual life that includes children and grandchildren who are also happy and very well grounded. I don't need your pity, and I wouldn't be so presumptuous or yes, condescending as to pity you. As for hating Christ, this is what amazes me about these posts, I have never even mentioned the name of Christ, you have no idea what I think or how I worship, and I am awed that you would make such a presumption. How condescending is that, to presume that you know more than I do about my life, my beliefs, or my happiness? You are making assumptions that seem to be common among born-agains and fundamentalists - that unless someone is in total agreement with your views and believes exactly as you do they are to be pitied and are essentially bad people.

Mom = also
For the record --A good bit of my education took place in seminaries.

Frookie, Momof5 - beautiful.
Godspeed

okay JayJay
You're clearly offended that anyone would presume you "hate" Christ despite the clearly un-Christ-like tone you've displayed here. Obviously unable to find the sincerity of momof5's sentiments, why not simply move on and tell us your view of Jesus Christ? What are the "spiritual" beliefs you hold with respect to Him? That might indeed clear up much, don't you think? What are you afraid of? Claiming now that you're "spiritual" and "happy" is great but frankly quite vaque and quite the opposite from your intitial comments. Humans can be found swimming in the ocean all the time. Does that make them fish? If you were to expound about how Jesus was this and that, all very positive, but conclude ultimately that He's not who He said He was, or opine that He is simply "one way" to God, do you think we're going to be surprised? Or, is that a mistaken presumption? Please tell. Do you cherish Jesus as your savior too? If so, wonderful. Then, my question would remain; why do you write to fellow Christians in such an abrasive tone?

frookie
Here's a post from another thread that I copied to send to another person, who is co-authoring an article with me about revivalism in the - oh, never mind, it doesn't matter. I sent it as representative of the kind of tone and level of argument that dominates this blog:-------------------------------------------
"Your first post in this thread says it all. You are no longer a member of the “loyal opposition”. You are a traitor in the same category with Hanoi Jane and Swift Boat Kerry. You now rank with those individuals who if I discovered burning on the side of the road after I had to make a “too many beers stop”, I would turn and urinate in the ditch instead."

-------------------------------------------
And you are really expecting me to discuss my personal spirituality in THIS kind of forum.?

No, thanks, I'll pass.



And
BTW, I'm also collecting posts by someone whose on line nickname is Mountain Rose, as I don't want to be accused of selective evidence.

to Jay Jay
Understandable explanation I suppose. Unfortunate. I would have been sincerely interested to read your position on Christ and faith. It's too bad that radicalism exists in both ends of the political spectrum. Try not to put too much worth to the rhetoric of some. For what it's worth, regardless of what you believe, I respect your educational achievements and pray the best for you.

Jay Jay writes:
"And you are really expecting me to discuss my personal spirituality in THIS kind of forum.?

No, thanks, I'll pass..."

"THIS" kind of forum??

I have taken the time to read every single post on this thread and can only draw one conclusion:

Those who are so easily "offended" are typically the first to offend... and then "wonder" why they become the target of so-called "venom".

The opinions and general tone expressed by "Jay Jay" reminds me of a former First Lady who is now running for President.

And I'll bet, to her, I've just paid a compliment!

Frookie
Thanks for being so civil. Perhaps if we were having a beer together on my deck we could have a truly interesting conversation.
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