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Wednesday, January 24, 2007
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Not Your Friend Flicka
by Kathleen Parker
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Critiquing American culture is tricky for people in the family newspaper business, especially this week as two controversial movies open at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah.

I shall try to be discreet.

One film, "Hounddog," involves the rape of a child, starring 12-year-old Dakota Fanning. The other, "Zoo," concerns, how to put it: an equine brothel wherein certain activities lead to a curious death. (You might want to hold the Shredded Wheat. While you're at it, cancel lunch.)

Zoo" is based on a real-life incident in Enumclaw, Wash., in 2005, and stars -- oh, who cares? Suffice it to say, what we have here is a man, a horse and a barn.

The world is not bereft of disturbed people, some of whom apparently find pleasure in the intimate company of stallions. When one such disturbed fellow died from internal injuries suffered during the pursuit of -- whatever! -- investigating police discovered a trove of depravity.

Hundreds of hours of videotape revealed that not one, but several men had found unusual companionship in the stud barn.

So much for plot.

More compelling than the depths of man's degeneracy is our cultural rationalization of "art," whereby pushing the envelope is confused with genius and scuttling The Last Taboo is seen as an expression of sophistication.

In interviews, both filmmaker Robinson Devor and THINKfilms distributor Mark Urman have emphasized the film's universalism. Urman says the film is "a universal look at what goes on behind the facade of everyday, quotidian, normal American middle-class life."

Devor admits that the protagonist "seems like an oddball at the outset of the movie" (ya think?), but the filmmaker is trying to reveal "the human capacity to do the most awful things, chart(ing) the journey of this unhappily married man who began to explore sexual alternatives, as so many do."

Ew-kay. We all understand unhappy marriages -- and the quotidian life grabs me every time I'm in the Piggly Wiggly checkout line. But is Mr. Ed the only refuge for thwarted man?

Forgotten in all the lofty talk about universal themes, testing thresholds and the artful treatment of this forbidden subject is the logic of taboos and boundaries. In most cases they exist for good reason -- evolved over time in the service of civilization.

The filmmaker's ultimate justification for laying it all bare is the human factor, which in this case seems overrated. Whatever one's moral objections, says Devor, these men are "still people. They are still us. ... It's sad."

To each his own tearjerker. Caligula, I hear, had a rotten childhood.

The same taboo-busting impulse drives "Hounddog," wherein we witness a real 12-year-old portray a girl waking up as her naked father climbs into bed with her; "dancing" in her underwear while lying in bed; and getting raped by a teenage boy.

We are, in other words, voyeurs to a young girl acting out a sexual predator's fantasies. If we have a problem with that, we're told these are real issues that beg honest exploration. No, amend that. We're lectured -- by a 12-year-old, who, we're reminded, is a sophisticated actress.

"You know, I'm an actress," Fanning patiently explained to The New York Times. "It's what I want to do, it's what I've been so lucky to have done for almost seven years now. And I am getting older."

Does anything quite equal the ennui born of being scolded by a too-precious child?

Far be it for anyone to suggest that adults know more about such things than children. At least some of them do. Fanning's parents support their daughter's decision to play the rape scene, noting that this could cinch an Oscar for the child star.

Even Marc Klaas -- the ubiquitous been-there father of his murdered daughter Polly -- has given his nod to the film, vouching for its sensitive, supportive treatment of Fanning.

Only the actress' face is shown during the rape scene, which reportedly has been tastefully executed.

It's hard to get enough of tasteful rapes, I admit. Unless you're a real child rapist, the bunch of whom doubtless will be sufficiently stimulated by Fanning's rape-face, as well as her panty-dance and her little visit from bad Daddy.

But it's Art, so relaaaaax. And it's real, so get with it.

And it's the last taboo.

Until the next one.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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Devor is decayed
"In interviews, both filmmaker Robinson Devor and THINKfilms distributor Mark Urman have emphasized the film's universalism. Urman says the film is "a universal look at what goes on behind the facade of everyday, quotidian, normal American middle-class life."

What?? Normal American middle class life? This guy has got to be smoking crack. In fact, how else could he make a film like this and watch depravity without being on something.

Utter repulsive and revolting! The film will tank.
The only place it will get any audience is in that barn he filmed it.

Hollywood...
Is the most corrupt place on the face of the earth. Nothing is taboo anymore, always defined as "art"...I think I need a bucket. That this is what children want to emulate and it makes me want to hurl.
Is this little girl sexually active? She must be if her parents believe she can handle this? For the life of me, why can't children just be children? This kid is going to end up like all the other child actors who become mentally bereft as a result of choices made in their "youth." Yikes. I can only say thank goodness that my 15yo daughter still likes to play "worm wars" in sleeping bags with her siblings and has never seen any movies above pg13 w/o her parents haveing seen it first.

Not enough people are speaking up...
The 2 movies that Ms. Parker alluded to are excellent examples of how our culture continues to degrade. NOTHING is off limits and unless the American public en masse decides to stop patronizing the madness, there will be no end in sight. This encompasses music, film, print, etc...it's time for people to speak up and emphatically call for DECENT artistic expression.

http://www.afronerd.com

Gawd! I'm getting old!
When did filth become "art?"

How did depravity and perversion turn into "alternative lifestyles?"

These twisted elitists flocking to Bob Redford's little film party in Utah, used to be the fringe of society, but have now injected their sick vision into the mainstream of our culture and with each movie season, scramble to outdo each other with ever escalating degradation of humanity.

No wonder the Islamofacists hate us so venomously! This crap threatens their entire belief system but the real scandal is that it has already destroyed ours.

The "empire" is in decline, history is repeating itself.

My two cents
Each one of the freedoms we have as Americans comes with the responsibility not to push it too far.

Either you think of making the rape of a 12 year old girl the focal point of a film as art or you think of it as depravity. I think of it as depravity. Poor unenlightened me.

Luckily I had not heard of the other film until Ms. Parker described it - as tastefully as possible, for which I thank her. Apparently the story is of a horse-f....r of some description. I'll skip that and I'll skip hound-dog and everything that comes out with the name Penn attached to it.

Kiddie porn is kiddie porn, and this movie sounds like that. The responsibility for the demons it unleashes in some sick people (and it will) can be laid directly at the feet of people like the ones who made the movie, just as it can be laid at the feet of the people who organize little girl beauty contests.

We are making sexual objects out of our children, especially girls, at a younger and younger age.

God help us.

1 more thing
Wanna see a great movie?

The Queen

Still some taboos
There are still some taboos, but they aren't likely to be broken. I can't imagine Hollywood these days doing a movie about a polka band. Or a cricket team, even if it was from the Third World.

JFP
Good points! I would add to your list movies about: terrorists who are actually muslims, Che Guevara being a murderous opressor, police who are not on the take, Christians reverently doing good works, war in which America is fighting valiantly to protect its people and freedom, and a heroic conservative Republican president.

The Wrong Targets ?
Osama bin Laden had his people fly planes into the Twin Towers in NYC, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania. He became a villain.

If he had his people fly planes into the "Hollywood" sign, one or two studios, and/or the site of the Sundance Film Festival instead, he'd have likely become a hero.

Your servant,

Lord Karth

The damage....
..., psychological, that is, to this 12 year old girl is incalculable. Problems for her will eventually manifest as sure as the sun will rise.

All the factors for this future tragedy are in place: a parent who is willfully exploitive and ignorant, comfortable rationalizations from all the adults involved and, in this case, an institution that (falsely) legitimizes this crime by calling it "artistic expression".

In her not too later years, Dakota will get to know a therapist -- and a pharmicist -- on a very personal basis. I pray she survives her eventual torment.

The good ol' First Amendment
OK, the folks behind these to pieces of cinematic sludge are right up there with Robert Mapplethorpe, Andres Serrano et al. Pushing envelopes for the sake of pushing envelopes. Well, that and all that money...

Shrinque
Exactly right. And not just terrorists who are actually Muslim, but how about a Muslim beating his wife? We won't see that from Hollywood, either.

Thanks for adding to my list.

My unchristian wish
is for the daughters and grand-dauthers of the director and producer be raped by a deviant that got in the mood by watching their drivel. Eye-for-an-eye, that is.

As a horse owner...
I am outraged. There is nothing so vile, so debased, so degenerate, so heinous, so beyond any additional synonym I can find at thesaurus.com which expresses my utter repulsion for "Zoo". I even looked up "quotidian", and there is absolutely nothing remotely customary, usual, or everyday about the depravity of a man violating an animal - horse, dog, or sheep. Nothing. It surpasses the depravity of watching while a 12-year old is raped, is compromised by her father, and tries to come to terms with her own changing body, thoughts, and emotions. You know - puberty.

I love my horses. I do. And I would happily, cheerfully, and without hesitation gut anyone who dared to assault them in such a fashion. In that regard, I'm happy I do not have children - because I might be worse about my daughter or son. Might. An animal is intrinsically and undeniably innocent of such degeneracy and debauchery. Procreation - perpetuation of the species is their only reason for breeding. I cannot conceive of any normal, quotidian man who is having problems with his marriage turning to stallions for solace and completion. Sick does not enter the ballpark to describe these monsters. For monsters they are...

However, they are less monstrous than Mr. Redford, Mr. Penn, and anyone else associated with either film. Art?! Ha. These repulsive, demeaning examples of Hollywood's consummate disregard for morals, values, common sense, sensibility, and decency - and my disgust knows no limit. They in no way speak for the vast American public, and they most assuredly do not represent MY own ideas of art and entertainment. They are prime examples of the disastrous results of giving children too much freedom without governance and consequence.

I am just sickened by them...

This is exactly why the Hollywood Elite
do not have any right to talk about moral standards. Most of them have none.
We rarely go to the Movie theater anymore. There is so much filth out there that it is nearly impossible to find a movie suitable for my seven-year-old.
We buy some movies on DVD and watch them at home.
Lately a few movies came out that were truly decent. "The Passion of Christ", and "The Chronicles of Narnia" were both excellent. There were another couple of movies that also presented great messages. "The End of the Spear" and "Facing the Giants" were both great movies but got little media attention because of their overt Christian content.
Well, they are both excellent and better portray middle class America than any horse-humping, or little-girl-raping filth out of Hollywood.
Like someone said earlier, if they think that portrays middle-class America, just what middle-class families did they grow up in?

Hollywood
Here's hoping that, if there is to be an earthquake in California, that it selectively dumps Hollywood in the ocean. What a bunch of depraved, immoral scumbags. This crap is not fit for display in family theaters.

Dakota is a gifted actress
That does NOT mean she doesn't need guidance and protection from loving parents. (too bad she doesn't seem to have any.

This animal abuse film is too disgusting to discuss.

Anyone who goes to see (or rents the DVD) of either of these films is just as guilty of destroying the morals of this country as Redford and Penn.

Shrinque
There is an excellent movie about a Conservative Republican Hero President. "Independence Day." It stars a young, dynamic President who was a military war hero and who doesn't hesitate to take to the skies to lead the troops when push comes to shove. This movie came out during the Clinton Administration, which makes a great poke in the eye with a sharp stick, too. My oldest boy and I saw it here in Kanukistan when it first came out (1996) and both of us got a good laugh at the number of Canadians who exited the theatre whining that "The Americans save the world AGAIN!"

You might also care for "Air Force One" starring Harrison Ford, although in that one you actually see Russians (the official Bad Guys) kill stewardesses. In "Independence Day" a lot of people get killed but you never see anybody die.

IF
If some one had put the filth depicted in Hounddog on the internet and some one downloaded same, both would probably have the FBI, FCC, and Bill OP'Reilley breathing down their collars as they were led off to be placed under the jail,
But remember this is only a movie.

3 "D" culture -Disturbing, Disgusting, D
Disturbing, Disgusting and Damaging - these movies speak volumes about the decadent decay of this nation. Just what we need -- another generation of girls socialized to " fantasize and dream" about their rape scenario. I have already been in a court room and seen it happen to a young man - a lying sick girl fantasizing she was in a Life Time Movie-true testimony. This movie(s) are sick sick sick!!
How about a good old fashioned movie - terrorists blowing up the Sundance Film Festival. Now that would serve a useful purpose.

Watch for the sequel starring young Dakota and her pet pony.

Have any of you seen the films?
No, you haven't. You have no idea how the films are presented or anything, yet you spew forth with your cliches anyway. "Zoo" is a documentary, which I have not seen but read up on (and yes I was at sundance this past weekend). It's not a fictional story, but an account of real events, real messed up events, in the midwest. It has as much right to exist as any documentary about any unsavory subject does.

As for "Hounddog", the director and Dakota's parents went to great lengths to evaluate the situation, the psychological effects, etc on Dakota before making the decision to go through with the scene. It is very brief, with Dakota's face only being shown for seconds. Also, if you knew anything about film you'd know that often, when an actor isn't required to show his/her face, they use doubles, so Dakota probably went through very little to do this scene. There will be no "psychological ramifications". Besides the fact that the girl is very grown up for her age... If any child actress could handle it, it'd be her.

Oh, and there's no nudity in the rape scene, so you wouldn't have the FBI, FCC, or Bill O'Rielly on the case. Let's ease up on the hyperbole.

And the very nature of the sundance film
festival is that HOLLYWOOD DID NOT MAKE EITHER OF THESE FILMS. Granted, it's slowly encroaching on the independent film scene, but as of right now, most films there, ESPECIALLY these two, are made INDEPENDENTLY OF HOLLYWOOD.

So it's incorrect to say that these films are indicative in any way of Hollywood immorality.

Hounddog/Zoo
Maybe the Muslims are on to something thinking that many Americans (as projected by the current and similar films) are irrevocably depraved. The majority of Americans who have not gotten onto this slippery slope, either ignore the problem or try to rationalize it - not solve it - and that includes the churches. History tells us that democracies - where almost complete freedom is permitted - are eventually replaced by dictatorships - it looks like that may be the only way our march to depravity will ever cease. In the meantime the depravity snowball keeps growing and gaining speed as it rolls on down the hill.

Great Line
"It's hard to get enough of tasteful rapes, I admit."

Too bad it will be lost on the ilk that make this type of crap. I cannot believe that her "parents" put her up to that, or allow her to do something like that. But they lost that title long ago, apparently. I don't even think they are going for the title "friend" because what friend would encourage you to do a rape scene because it is "art"?




Liberals in Hollywood
gave us:

Brokebutt Mountain

Zoo

Hounddog

Pretty much sums up their moral standings.

BTW, Redford needs to apologize to US for foisting "Indecent Proposal" on us. Arguably about as nauseating as Titanic and the horrid song that was playing 5 or 6 million times until it was seared into my brain.

Understand the enemy.
I don't expect to make a dent in the moral standards of Hollywood or its minions (the paying public), but I think some of us are pointing at minor targets and not the root problem. People pay money to see this. THAT is the problem. If you buy depravity, you fund it too. Fanning's parents really paint the picture. The drones that show up to view this trash display the same gross negligence as they do. Viewers fund the machine that allows "actors" and "directors" to "break taboos" while Fanning's Oscar-slave parents sacrifice their daughter's childhood AND FUTURE to the sick viewing masses. I won't be a part of it. I won't fail to be a part of the revulsion and outrage, though.

Isn't child rape sick enough to hate on it's own????? Why does this production--and the human beings behind it--feel civilization will benefit from analyzing it???? You do not need to understand that which you hate. Not all the time.

Super Mario
I've no doubt that Dakota Fanning's parents reviewed all important aspects of the film....like the money and career potential.

Had a heterosexual males produced these exact same films as “entertainment,” we would not only have a hue and cry for their heads, but lawsuits galore, and a senate investigation into how public authorities have permitted this sort of activity to thrive (both the content and the film making). As avant garde women, they get a pass. Similarly, Backdoor Mountain and other homosexual themes get at minimum a pass, but usually adulation.

Beam me up, Scotty! No intelligent life here on Leftworld.

Marc's right
The best weapon we have is our wallet. Have you noticed the increase in animated films aimed at kids/families lately? Hollyweird, chock full of nuts though it is, is probably the fastest reactor to spending trends of any industry in the nation. Zoo and Hound Dog will never escape the "aht theatah" for the multiplex. There aren't enough of us nuanced afficionados out there to justify it. Thanks be to God.

HOLLYWOOD DID NOT MAKE ZOO OR HOUNDDOG
How many times does it need to be said before people realize this?

They're called "independent" films for a reason.

AND SHRINQUE:

"I would add to your list movies about: terrorists who are actually muslims, Che Guevara being a murderous opressor, police who are not on the take, Christians reverently doing good works, war in which America is fighting valiantly to protect its people and freedom, and a heroic conservative Republican president."

You must not go to the movies much, because there have been 2 9/11 movies ALONE out of hollywood in the past 2 years, each with terrorists as muslims. Also, off the top of my head, True Lies comes to mind. As does TV's 24. Many shows, such as Lost, have had subplots featuring terrorists who are muslim as well.

There are countless shows on TV and films that feature upstanding cops, as well. As for just war films, look no further than Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find a war film in which America isn't portrayed as justly trying to protect it's citizens. I think this is just exaggeration on your part. As for Che, there have been upwards of 20 films on him, and not all of them complimentary.

Christians are also not nearly as attacked in films as you would like to believe. Even in horror films, such as the Exorcist, they play important, central, GOOD roles. Conservative republican president? Action movies like air force one, and I believe even the romantic comedy The American President featured a conservative president.

I'd say you're fairly ill-informed about what movies Hollywood would and wouldn't make.

Reggie
"Had a heterosexual males produced these exact same films as “entertainment,” we would not only have a hue and cry for their heads, but lawsuits galore, and a senate investigation into how public authorities have permitted this sort of activity to thrive (both the content and the film making). As avant garde women, they get a pass. Similarly, Backdoor Mountain and other homosexual themes get at minimum a pass, but usually adulation."

And yet again ignorance roars onto the scene. Actually, Reggie, another film at Sundance this year is a film called "An American Crime" directed by Tommy O'Haver. It's based on a true story about a girl who was physically and sexually abused in the mid-1960's. I actually saw this film and it is upsetting to watch, and the abuse goes on much longer than Dakota's rape scene. There is no senate committee or lawsuits. You're just plain wrong on this one. That's the problem with stating hypotheticals as fact... When they actually happen you might get burned.

Oh, and that's a pretty unfounded accusation about Dakota's parents. You shouldn't listen to ridiculous drivel spouted out by some of the people on here. If you're going to make claims like that, at least have the courtesy to back them up with proof.

Super Mario
We hear you.

Where, in your opinion, were:

Brokebut Mountain
Hounddog
Zoo

better received?

In conservative areas or liberal ones?

And as far as IFC/IF goes, who exactly backs these movies? Liberals or Conservatives?

I'm betting that the money is coming from Hollyweird.

It is really that simple.

I call it the Mapplethorpe Effect
Artists and would-be artists have this idea that shock and irony can make up for a lack of creativity. I think it all started with the Mapplethorpe controversy. The Mapplethorpe photos had artistic merit, but what sold tickets was the controversy.

I happened to be in college at the time. Before Mapplethorpe, the student art gallery had some pretty typical abstract modern stuff with a little Mexicana here and there (I'm in Texas). After Mapplethorpe, we had videos of some guy pooping an egg, political statements so blatant and jarring it would make Diego Rivera cringe, and parodies of Roman Catholic altars.

I don't care how shocking or profane something is, if it has artistic merit. Let's talk Picasso's "Guernica" or Tarntino's "Pulp Fiction." Unfortunately, far too many "artists" mistake controversy for artistic merit.

Base on some of this
My dog just created a masterpiece.

Gunny
Warm reception and creation are two different things. In terms of "Hollywood", "Hollywood" as the mainstream knows it consists of the large studios who put out movies every year. It's also an area of LA. What do you define as a Hollywood film? One that was made in Los Angeles, or one that was funded by the large studios that make up the modern day Hollywood?

To put it plainly: the independent films Zoo and Hounddog are labeled so because they were created, funded, etc, independently of Hollywood studios. The money did not come from there. In fact, one of the big draws of sundance is occasional change that independent films get bought by hollywood for distribution after being screened. It really is THAT simple.

As for Brokeback Mountain, I'm interested in the fact that you're lumping it in with the other "trash" and "filth", seeing as how it was phenomenally reviewed, extensively awarded, and if you had actually seen the film (and I'm guessing you didn't) about as subtle and non-exploitative as it gets. But no, I'm guessing that personal biases are leading you to make judgements about that movie that really are unfounded, and that's a shame. It also makes one wonder how wrong you are about other films you rush to judge without seeing...

Super Mario
How much of the nice reviews Brokeback Mountain got was due to its political usage by lefties on every message board I played on back then as some litmus test for gay tolerance?

If saying anything bad about "Brokeback Mountain" makes you a homophobe, what politically correct reviewer would dare say anything negative?

That's a nice little conspiracy theory
You have there, but it doesn't hold water.

Saying something bad about the film after seeing it doesn't make you a homophobe, provided your complaints are with the film.

Calling the film filth and trash based solely on it's subject matter, without even seeing the film or having ANY idea how the material is presented... does. It's all in the reasons behind the complaints, as it is with anything.

Brokeback mountain had negative reviews, all film do. The majority of the negative reviews docked the film points for various film-related qualities, (some thought it was too long, or tedius. Some said it didn't live up to the controversy hype) and those reviews are as legitimate as any positive review. No one attacked the negative reviewers.

Also, there are many gay-themed comedies and dramas that come out all the time. Many of them (as is also the case with many heterosexual comedies) are stupid, and are reviewed as such. No one calls those negative reviewers homophobes, either.

One might argue same thing about The Passion of the Christ. Maybe it was simply so well reviewed because it was a movie about Jesus that was based on the gospels. The film had a built in audience of 2 billion! And if you knock it, you're knocking JESUS!

Having seen the Passion of the Christ, I personally thought that it was nice to look at and great sounding, but ultimately a very shallow, manipulative experience. I saw it, and that's my opinion, which I am entitled to. (And apparently I'm not alone, looking at some of these negative reviews. Though that's just because everyone in America hates Catholics, right? Another fun theory.

Interesting thing about the negative Passion reviews, though is that all of them cite, as Brokeback's negative reviews do as well, legitimate gripes with the style of the film making, overly gory, shallow development, etc) You see? Having a legitimate reason to dislike a film is ok. Not liking the passion because you don't like Christianity, or not liking Brokeback Mountain because you dislike homosexuality is not a legitimate reason, in my opinion.

For the record, I would attack someone who made negative claims about the Passion without seeing it. I have very little patience for people making claims, especially negative ones, about something before being exposed to it or researching it.

I would say that a very small percentage (if any) of positive reviews of brokeback were the result of feeling obligated by political correctness to review it well. I also think you're not giving people enough credit.

For the record,
You can not want to see something- you're entitled to do that and not be a homophobe.

But to actively refer to the film as trash or filth while never having even seen it, is another thing entirely.

Oh, and Brokeback Mountain jokes are about as Fresh as jokes about Janet Jackson's nipple.

Neither were particularly funny then, and they're certainly not funny now. And "Brokebut Mountain"? Is that really the best you can do?

The best fantasy uses imagination
That's why movies like this are so sick. As a writer, I want to use words that build mind-pictures, because a stimulated imagination will do more than my prose. Most film-makers don't do that because they have the visual images to use, but a few truly great film-makers have done this quite successfully. Alfred Hitchcock rarely showed anything truly frightening on screen. It was all about titilating our imaginations. M. Night Shamylan (sp?) did the same thing in Signs. They were more frightening any horror film because they played on our imaginations and on our ability to take it to the next level.

So, these newer films, sounds like they're doing the same. We don't need to actually see Dakota Fanning raped. We just imagine what's happening and our imaginations do the rest. So, yes, in terms of stimulating deviants to go out and copy the film -- yeah, there's every chance that this will happen.

Super Mario - I don't need to see a film to know that it's a sick film. Why do we need to see images of men having sexual relations with horses? Does that somehow enrich our society? I work for community mental health. Believe me when I say that I know that 12-year-old girls are molested by their fathers. I don't need a film to convince me that it happens. Why do you? Or does it titilate you so much that you just have to be able to see it? That would be my fear.

I agree
I agree with Aurorawatcher.

Real life is depressing enough, pick up the newspaper, plenty of stories of child rape, child prostitution, Incest, murder, stealing.
Who on earth do I need to pay to see some hack writer's attempt at "realism"?

Books are still popular with many people, because you draw your own picture in your head.

For all of the praise of Indies and Hollywood, look at how often the "new" idea is a rewrite of something from 1950-1980.

Super
I would say that you don't have children, just a guess...Get off your freaking high horse and stop defending those little "independent" films. If the accolades BBM rec'd are a good thing then you must have enjoyed the movie or thought you did. Many of us have children and the premise on which these movies are based leaves little to the imagination...or has that just escaped your small mind while you defend the lack of morality whether in Hollywood (or OOOOHHH!!) Sundance and who spent the money on what. Please.
Either way, the implications in regard to these movie is enough to deter many of the posters here from contributing to the bankrupted society of Hollywood or Sundance. But, hey, you go ahead and see the movies...we'll all be waiting for your unbiased review...not.

It's Only Plato's Allegory of the Cave
I do not really care what swill is shown on the silver screen since I do not go to see movies. The few that I have found worth watching are on tape and in my modest video cabinet. Movies are illusion, as is television. They are frequently produced by avant-garde moral midgets in order to freak out the few remaining holders of sensible mores. Consequently I do not rise to the bait. I simply refuse to waste my valuable time and money watching garbage. There are so many motorcycle and car trips to be taken, so much wonderful scenery to view, so many good friends to converse with over a bottle or two of wine, and a huge number of fine books to read that it is senseless to waste one's life watching or worrying about the human cesspool that is the abyss of movies and television. That is why I find it incredible that someone as brilliant as Kathleen Parker wastes her time writing about a subject like this.

Aurora, Do you know that the film shows
Any images of men having sex with horses? No, you don't. In fact, I don't think it actually does, though I haven't seen it myself so I can't say for sure.

I never said I wanted to see Zoo. I actually have no desire to see it. The difference between me and others here is that I'm not putting the film down just because it's not something i'm interested in. It's a documentary on something that happened that's perverse but not as uncommon as one might think. I fail to see why the film shouldn't be made. Why is a documentary on a perversion "Sick"? Documentaries exist to document. Should we just not document perverse topics? Is forgetting or remaining ignorant of what goes on in the world a better alternative?

I have no desire to see Hounddog, either, as it's really not my type of movie.

I'm not saying people should see either film. I'm defending either film's right to be made and judged based on it's merits as a film, not it's subject matter, that's all.

Finally, If we all just stuck to films that made us feel safe or comfortable, I'd imagine that we'd be watching some pretty boring films.

Nee,
I never said anything about taking children to these movies, first off.

Secondly, by your obvious talking about the lack of morality in BBM, you must be a Christian, and obviously didn't even see the film, so how can you say what morality was even present in it?

I wonder, did you let your children see "The Passion"? I would hope not, but one never knows. Many did take their children to see it, despite an intense and extensive amount of gore and violence. All because the "message" was "good". People have different opinions on what's appropriate for children. Though if you were one of the ones who thought that a man getting his flesh torn out by a cat-o-nine-tails is appropriate viewing, then I would say that you have no right to talk about what is good or not for anyone.

As for "the premise leaving little to the imagination", I'm not even sure what you mean by that. None of the premises for these films have been overly forthcoming with information or obscene in any way. They leave ALOT to the imagination. As for BBM, there wasn't even nudity in it, nor any significant amount of sexuality. Certainly less than most heterosexual movies. All of these movies have been promoted to adults, not to children, and promote no real morality systems of their own. They are not telling you how to behave, and if you saw any of the films, you'd probably realize that. One is documenting an event in time. The others are telling FICTIONAL stories about characters dealing with bad situations.

If you only live your life based on how films tell you to act, or the choices the characters in films make, then might I suggest playing it safe and watching no film with any conflict in it whatsoever.

Oh, and the money argument was used to show ignorance on this board about how the movie industry works. How can you complain about a lack of morality of a group based on a movie THEY DIDN'T MAKE?

You can't. It was relavent to the conversation, not a "defense of immorality". Oh, and nice crack about the small mind. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Children
Ahhhh, here is the 400-pound gorilla.

When a movie has such adult content, and most families have children, it becomes imperative that you find a sitter, or you flat don't go see the film.

Ever wonder why film attendance dropped so precipitously since dropping the "film code?" I am not advocating a return to the film code, but it does illustrate that families with children are a huge audience, often ignored.

SM Your arguement makes no sense
to me. You act like we need to see some waste of time movie before we can criticize it. To me that is like saying that I should actually rape someone before I can condemn rapists because I really don't get what is going on. Sound ludicrous? Of course it does! Right is right and wrong is wrong. I don't need to see something like bareback mtn to know that it is wrong. The only reason it got such accolades is that 1) the homosexual agenda was promoted thru this movie (I mean, if two cowboys are homos, then it must be masculine, right?), and 2) it flew in the face of many that find such conduct immoral.

Personally, the old movies on TCM are the best around. They don't feel the need to pander to our basest desires or even the lowest common denominator scum on the earth (a horse!! for crying out loud!), yet they are far from boring. Jimmy Stewart, Carey Grant, Humphrie Bogart, Katherine Hepburn, et al, made GREAT movies that entertained.

No sixpack
I'm saying, to condemn something you have no concept of is ignorant. You don't have to see every film, but to post tirades about a film you haven't seen is disingenuous to me. No one's making you like it or see it, but if you're going to spend time actively getting others to not see it, I think you should at least know what the hell you're talking about.


Fine, lets put your obvious bias towards BBM aside for a second. What about hounddog? In that film, she's raped for a few seconds. Do you think the film is glorifying that? Do you think the film paints that in anything other then a terrible, tragic light? Just because it has a child get raped in the film it's suddenly worth of boycott and attack? This stuff happens all the time in real life. What's your argument against HoundDog.

And Zoo! Do you think the film is saying "Go out! Have sex with a horse! It's ok! It's good to have sex with horses!!!"

Somehow, I doubt it. You all act as if these films are promoting the bad things that happen within them. They're not.

And your reasoning behind the acolades of BBM is ridiculous. It recieved such awards because it was a well made film. Not every movie reviewer is on the gay agenda's payroll.

Alot of the right were so against BBM because it humanized homosexuality after they spend most of their time demonizing it. That's what's really WRONG in this senario.

SM
Tell me, what is the good films like these (HD, Zoo) do for society? Tell me that raping little girls is okay? That I shouldn't have longing feelings for my neighbor's horse? No, they are made simply to let us live that experience vicariously. When you get down to it, how many people have watched movies that have made them want to go out and be like that person. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, etc., were wildly popular because what boy didn't want to have a life like that, going everywhere having this great adventure! The same, unfortunately, goes for porn. They are popular because most men are hardwired to want women to want them anytime, anywhere (the entire premise of these movies) and thereby gratify themselves.

To think that these movies are harmless and that they are "only movies" is ridiculous. They show that now in our culture it is okay to portray on a big screen (indy or not) the rape of a 12 year old or some pervert gettin' his jollies with a horse. How many movies glorified drug use? That it made you funny? That it made you cool? That it made you "in touch" with yourself? People, especially young people, saw that message and now we have the problems we do.


Thuper Mario
You bash the posters who KNOW that regardless where these movies came out of, Hollywood or Sundance, it doesn't matter---that the movie of a little girl getting raped and a man who enjoys a good horse now and then are simply films based on shock value, negative press which turns into good press---you know...schlock. We know how those greasy wheels turn. We're not idiots.

Do I need to see these films? No. I don't. Why? because I know they are shock schlock.

And to quote you: I have no desire to see Hounddog, either, as it's really not my type of movie.

And why is that Thuper? You didn't see the Horse movie either, although you made it sound like you did when you first began your rants. You didn't see both of them because you know it's merely shock schlock.

These movies remind me of when I went to the art museum. I was fascinated by the paintings and the statues from centuries ago. The beauty they capture of that period, the deepness of their expression. Then...I walk to the area known as Modern Art and what do I see? I see a smeared canvass of menstral blood. I see gravel on the floor next to a broken mirror. I see fecal matter thrown willy nilly against a photograph. Art?

Basically Thuper, what I guess us Non-Libs feel is that true art, beauty and expression is lost. It is lost because our world needs, craves and will produce and see smut. They need the visual and brain stimulation of shock schlock. Taste is out the window. Taste is relative yes...But even you said you wouldn't see these either....

Shells
yes! yes! yes! yes! yes! I bit ago I was pilloried for saying that nudity in our society was pornography because it was meant to tittilate, and I was called basically a prude because that meant that I was saying Michealango's David and the Statue of Venus are porno instead of art (which of course I wasn't) I was referring to the smut they put out there in the name of the 1st amendment and then tell me I'd better like it or I'm the one that has a problem. The libs KNOW what you mean, but they turn it against you to make you seem stupid.

Sixpacktr
Right! See, I'm the only conservative in my entire family of leftist extremists and I know how their minds work. It was a survival tactic I had to learn to survive and not be brainwashed. I don't get invited to many family dinners, but at least I have my dignity and I know how to cook.

Basically, Thuper never saw the movie, he found a typical platform to be able to bash people who actually have good taste and hindsight not to appreciate these two movies----movies even HE wouldn't see himself, LMAO.

Liberals are funny.

The difference between me and you,
Thells (though I'll be honest, I don't get the use of "th". Is it supposed to simulate a lisp? Do you think I'm gay? Well I'm actually not, in case you were wondering. It was a cute attempt, though, maybe next time.) Anyway, Thells, the difference between me and others on here is that I said if you were going to bash a movie, you should have seen it. I never said I saw it, and even in my first post I said I hadn't. It's fine that I didn't see it because I wasn't the one bashing it!

Sixpack, by your logic, only adventure movies are worthwhile. What about horror movies? Do we want to be killed by Michael Meyers? No. Movie-going is an experience. We get to experience things we wouldn't normally experience, be it being scared, or grossed out, or entertained, etc.

Zoo tells you about a topic you probably wouldn't know about otherwise... What's the point of seeing a documentary about any terrible thing in history? HD tells a story, plain and simple. Films do do that, you know. Tell stories. Her rape is a very small moment in a film. Part of a bigger story. What does the film "independence day" do for society? Mindless action against aliens! REALLY SHAPING THE WORLD WE LIVE IN!! Films don't have to change the world, Six pack. Indiana Jones films were fun, but they didn't do anything for society, either.

And people didn't get into drugs because of films, drugs got put into films because they became so popular in real life. It was a way of reaching out to an already existing audience. You can't blame the media for everything that's gone wrong in our society, as much as you'd like to. What about the old black and white movies on TMC? They smoke and drink like truck drivers in that movie and they make it seem DAMN cool.

I also never said either of these films were art!! Where did you guys get this stuff from? I'm not comparing this stuff to the mona lisa or David!! Film can be art, yes but it does not have to be. That doesn't mean that film isn't worthwhile, though. I know many people who think the film "dumb and dumber" is one of the best comedies ever (I think it's just ok), does that mean it's art? Hell no. Doesn't mean it's without merit.

And Thells, please don't generalize all liberals just because I happen to be liberal and feel a certain way. You "righties" are not the last bastion of art in the known world. I actually find the idea kind of laughable.

You guys can insist that things like rape and sex and violence don't find their way into your films, but you're fooling yourselves if you think those things don't happen every single day.

Shells,
I didn't bash anyone. I've been pretty civil in my posts. I just said that for someone to protest that a film is "wrong", they should actually see the movie.

That's all I've been saying this whole time.

Republicans are silly.

Yes Libs are funny
but unfortunately they are taking more and more of the dimwits in and getting themselves elected. We conservatives know them for what they are, feel good emotionally motivated dimwits, while they depict us as out of touch, cold hearted prudes that want to inflict ourselves on them. But the older I get, the more I find that the libs are the total control freaks that want to rule every facet of our lives and have us pay for the pleasure, and true conservatives want to be left alone to live their lives (unfortunately, more and more Repubs are straying into the "control freak" mode because they think that is what people want). But at the same time, conservatives are very concerned with the depravity that is being almost forced down our throats (or more correctly, down our children's throats) and then depicted as "normal". The libs know that if they can influence the young ones then they will get further along in the next generation.

Think of it. 25 years ago child molesters were the absolute scum of the earth. No questions asked. Then some idiot professors and therapists started saying that maybe it wasn't so bad. I remember the first time I heard that I nearly threw up. But now we hear more regularly that a sexual relationship between adults and children can be beneficial to both parties (sorry, I can't remember where I heard or read that, but it was fairly recently). It creeps in a little at a time and then it isn't taboo anymore. The same with films like this.

The real problem is that movies like this will humanize the perpetrators. And then we will call child rape a disease and froggin' your horse (or dog, whatever) an "alternate lifestyle" that is is just as legitimate as any other.

That's it right there.
These may not be my type of movies, but I will defend their right to be made regardless. You republicans call things trash and filth and want them to be banned when you don't like something.

Whereas I think that just because I don't like something, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

That's the biggest difference between the liberal state of mind and the conservative state of mind, in my opinion.

And shells, I don't happen to like modern art, either, but to set the record straight, only a very tiny portion of it is made with "feces and menstrual blood". Most of it is traditionally painted or sculpted.

true conservatives?
"True conservatives want to be left alone to live their lives"

Really? It's the dems pushing abortion laws and gay marriage ammendments? The republicans just want everyone to live in peace? Or wait, is it when the dems are pushing things you don't like, it's "THE DEMS WANT TO CONTROL THE WORLD" and when they're pushing for control you agree with, it's fine? That's ok, right?

SM
What the libs are pushing has and will continue to promote chaos and the fall of this country. It is that simple. The arguments of libs that they tie back to the constitution and the 1st amendment were NEVER foreseen by the founding fathers. Why? Because rational thought never envisioned aborting fetus's for convenience, or two homosexuals demanding that they have the same rights to marriage as a man and a woman do.

Get real. You have been led down a primrose path and are attempting to enforce a "society" upon us that can never stand. Chaos will replace the rule of law and the rules of decency, and that will lead to more hand wringing of "what went wrong? Let's make another law to fix it!"

Arguing hypotheticals are pointless, six
I guess we'll have to just wait and see. Still, you conservatives have had the country for 12 years and look at the mess we're in. If we kept down the same path, with a 28% approval rating for your man in office (2% more than nixon when he resigned), how much longer could this society stand it?

You act as though the conservative way was working so well. The democrats wouldn't have won the last election if that had been the case. You can make claims all you want of liberal brainwashing, but the fact of the matter is that the conservatives just weren't cutting it anymore.

Gays getting married or women getting abortions are not going to have any affect on our society's longevity. You're basing that assesment on what? The bible?

No. What will have a great affect on how long we last is our cavalier war-making, arrogance, and the absolutely disgusting amount of animosity we have for one another within our own country as well as abroad.

Again, look at what I wrote
I said that the repubs are becoming more lib everyday. I would hardly call them conservative, not by a long shot. THAT is the problem. If they'd grow a backbone and stand up for what is right instead of what they think will get them reelected there would be no problem.

The election was not about what the libs are pinning it on. It was that conservatives abandoned the repubs in hopes that they'd wake up and realize that they need to act conservative instead of as cross dressing libs...

That's just your opinion.
I disagree that the election was the result of anything other than the NATION'S disgust with the republican party. Even when dems win, you can't give them any credit, can you? It's always more spin.

Save Dakotas' Life - Sign the Pledge
Her parents may let her be cinimatically raped, but the American Fighting Man can still save her life - if not her soul.

Support the American Fighting Man (& your skin)-
Sign the pledge - NOW

http://truthlaidbear.com/thenrscpledge/

Super Mario
Your comment minimizing my earlier post by saying, to paraphrase, all the adults around Dakota structured the movie's child rape scene to cause no harm to the child.

When children are exposed to very adult situations, regardless of how precocious he or she is, psychological damage occurs. Many children today are allowed adult prerogatives by parents, and the popular culture supports that permissiveness.

There is a reason to "hide it from the children", whatever the adult situation is, and said hiding isn't all for religious reasons.

These children eventually pay the price in drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, very early pregnancies, as well as chronic depression, anxiety disorders and suicidal thoughts. Some act out the suicidal thoughts -- successfully.

What is most disturbing is how the movie folks of the popular culture were able to reason the following:

movie + rape + child + tastefully done = entertainment.

I don't think all the therapy in the world could help these people. And I'm an optimist.

btw: Think of all the parents who will allow their children to watch this movie on CD, regardless of the rating. Many parents will allow it, sir, and that's guaranteed. There most likely will be another essay in the future about this movie's effect on kids. And it won't remotely be good news.




Pinch your nose---
we're swimming in a sewer---

Thuper
To further point out a liberal hyprocracy you tried to lay on the posters here...I will touche it back at you.

You criticize the posters who have an opinion of what these movies entail, why they would not see it, and why they find them outrageous. You said it was wrong of them to criticrize something we've never seen and yes.

You yourself have not seen these movies and you are so quick to DEFEND what you haven't seen, which is a typical liberal repsonse to disagree with the righties. How can you, Thuper, defend anything you haven't seen....

And again Thuper, why won't you see these movies? I really want to know....You said they are not your type of film....well then, you are PREJUDGING what you haven't seen either, aren't you?! Defend all you like something you know just as much about as we do...call us what you want, criticize us all for hindsight and taste and label us what negative comments you will.

The fact is, you are a hypocrite and are arguing with the righties for arguments sake alone to compartmentalize us in one Christian Right Wing Radical Prudish Group of 1st Ammendment Nazi's.

Go find another cause. Save a tree somewhere. Trees can't talk back.

questions to sm
You seem to be enjoying the give and take with us knuckle draggers and that is cool and your "gotcha" question seems to be "have you seen the movie?" and that too is cool. We obviously lack the je-ne-sais quoi to appreciate the nuances, etc and that too is cool. I can live with that.

I think it is safe - and fair - to say that the people who put together the film "Hound Dog" are loving every minute of the controversy that has sprung up about the film because that spells ticket sales, and that means MONEY.

What is the plot of the film? I haven't the foggiest. The controversy that has erupted, much to the delight of the producer, the director and I would venture ESPECIALLY those who financed the film, is over the simple fact that there is a scene in the film in which a 12 year old girl is raped.

Let me repeat that - There is a scene in the film in which a 12 year old girl is raped.

1 more time - There is a scene in the film in which a 12 year old girl is raped.

Not having seen the film (and not planning to) I appreciate your telling us that the scene (in which a 12 year old girl is raped) is tastefully done. That helps immensely and I can't tell you how much better that makes me feel.

Questions

When the film is released to the gum-chewing public, aka us, how many people do you think will go to the flick to see an uplifting story and how many do you think will go to the flick in order to see the (tastefully done) scene in which a 12 year old girl is raped?

And

After we rubes have paid our hard-earned money to see this movie [in which there is a (tastefully done)scene in which a 12 year old girl is raped] do you honestly think that those responsible for it will give two s**** about our opinion of it? They'll have our money by then.

BTW - did you pay for your ticket?

Super Mario
Yep, this country is swirling down the bowl.

All economic indicators UP.

DOW setting records.

GDP gaining ground.

Deficit gone in HALF the time that it was predicted.

Unemployment at record lows.

NO terrorist attacks on US since the terrorists completed the one that they planned on Bubba's watch.

Al-Qaeda scattered.

Senior Al-Qaeda members dead or locked up and talking.

OBL dead or eating cave rats garnished in camel spiders.

Al-Zarqawi worm food.

Thousands of terrorists meeting Mr M16A2/M240G or various other weaponry in our arsenal.

Yep, we're done for.

You should escape to France while you can.

We knew
VOMIT.

We knew when Jesus was peed on and the crucifix in elephant dung (and if I don't have those facts nailed down perfectly-I don't care) that decency was quickly becoming a thing of the past.... But still worth a fight!!
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