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Wednesday, December 06, 2006
Kathleen Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Outing Joe Biden's inner Bubba
by Kathleen Parker
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COLUMBIA, S.C. -- In 2003, when Howard Dean named ``guns, God and gays'' as Southern obsessions and said he wanted to work for the white guys with Confederate flag stickers on their pickup trucks, Sen. Joe Biden must have seen Jesus.

Now he's gone one better. To the litany of political pandering, Biden has added a new invocation: slavery. As in, ``Hey! I'm from a slave state, too!''

Those weren't his precise words, but Biden, who has announced a run for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, has been working hard lately to liberate his inner bubba, twice mentioning that his home state of Delaware was once a slave state.

Biden is but the most recent in a long line of pretenders to grits, but he may be the first to invoke slavery for political points.

His first reference came during an interview last summer with Chris Wallace on ``Fox News Sunday.'' Wallace asked Biden how a ``Northeastern liberal'' could compete in conservative Southern states against someone like former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner -- at the time a possible contender.

Biden replied: ``My state was a slave state. My state is a border state. My state has the eighth-largest black population in the country.'' Well, yee-haw!

'Course ever'body knows, Southerners start their days with a bucket o' grits, a gay-bashin' blessin' and a few bars of ``Ol' times they ain't fergottin.'' That is, right after they've rinsed the soot from their party sheets and sprayed a few stray cats with some lead 6-shot.

Well, maybe five or six do. And they're all apparently employed by some central casting group that rounds up ``typical Southerners'' whenever TV crews venture outside the Beltway for man-on-the-street interviews out yonder. Otherwise, the Hollywood version of a Southerner is as rare as possom tartare.

Biden's second testimonial as a born-again Southerner came last week while he was visiting South Carolina. Speaking before Columbia's mostly Republican Rotary Club, Biden reminded his audience of his slave-state heritage and hinted that Delaware's alliance with the North was merely an accident of geography.

Delaware was a ``slave state that fought beside the North,'' he said. ``That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South. There were a couple of states in the way.''

During the same speech, Biden made humorous note of the club's plan to have its annual Christmas party at the state Department of Archives and History, where members could view the original copy of the Articles of Secession.

``Where else could I go to a Rotary Club where (for a) Christmas party the highlight is looking at the Articles?''

Indeed. Giving Biden the benefit of the doubt, one could legitimately wonder, where else?

Watching politicians play redneck is always embarrassing. Whether it's dropping in on NASCAR, saying ``y'all,'' or confessing one's love for Randy Travis (but not the Dixie Chicks), that dog don't hunt.

During the last presidential race, for instance, John Kerry went goose-hunting in Ohio to demonstrate his good ol' boy-ness -- but blew the hoped-for effect by wearing brand-new camos. Not done.

With Biden's wince-inducing mention of slavery as a way to establish his Southern bona fides, I think we can safely say that politics has finally jumped the shark, tipped the point and perfected the storm.

Bubba is now a cliche of a cliche of a cliche.

Of course no one seriously thinks that Biden was touting slavery. More likely he was trying to say something friendly to his audience, as in: ``I may be from a state north of here, but I love South Carolina, and I'll say any fool thing to get your vote.''

That the audience responded favorably is neither surprising, nor necessarily promising. Southerners are relentlessly polite, and Biden -- despite his ill-chosen words -- is charming.

The problem when you're running for leader of the free world, however, is that charm isn't enough. You have to get the words right. President Bush has ended for all time any notion that choosing -- or inventing -- the wrong word is a quaint idiosyncrasy.

Words matter.

What also matters -- not just to Southerners -- is authenticity. There's no surer way to lose the public's confidence than to pretend to be something you're not. The real McCoy can always spot a decoy.

And a political fake is a dead duck.

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About The Author
Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.
 
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The double standard.....again
This just infuriates me. Black pastors can literally campaign from the pulpit with impunity, while conservative Christian pastors get flayed for handing out voter guides. Trent Lott was excoriated for a stupid remark which could be construed as supporting segregation, and Biden gets a pass for a remark that could be interpreted as sympathizing with the slave states. It boggles the mind!

Political correctness has no place...
... on either the right or the left. Parker's attempt to bash Biden because he doesn't conform to her notion of how to speak about slavery and the south just doesn't wash.

Biden's statements about Delaware and slavery are factually correct. He also has a long history in the senate of forming genuine relationships with people he disagrees with, including over civil rights.

He was a close friend of Strom Thurmond from South Carolina. He knew Thurmond well, and worked in opposition to him and then with him at times for many years. In the end, Biden, the democrat who Parker says is pandering to southerners, was the person Thurmond chose before his death to delivery his eulogy. That eloquent tribute Biden gave in 2003 to a man he opposed at times is worth reading and can be found at

http://uniteourstates.com/about/speeches?id=0008

Biden may not use the politically correct jargon that Kathleen Parker would choose when he talks about the South. But he has has demonstrated his ability to work with people with different cultural backgrounds and political viewpoints for real progress on issues that divide this country and get things done.

While his chances of winning the democratic nomination at this point don't appear overwhelming, he is one of the better people running for the opportunity. I hope he is successful against all the odds, because he is the type of person we need to lead this country. I will gladly vote for him in the primary and general election in spite of Parker's reservations about his political correctness.

Joe Biden
Wow, last I heard he was from a long line of Pennsylvania (or was it West Virginia) coal miners who played football every day after they finished up a 25 hour shift in the pits, just like Neal Kinnock...I did not know old Joe's miner forebears where slavers too. He's a regular hair transplanted, booth tanned renaissance man.

And just think...
...of the money the govt. will save on speech writers if he's elected. Although the savings will be offset somewhat by what speech borrowers go for these days.

Slacker
Amongst these two follicly bonded comrades, whose transplants do you rate higher -- Biden or Thurmond? I give Biden the edge, but my buddy insists that Thurmond's look scored him more mistresses. Would you be the tiebreaker?

Slacker is right
Slacker hits the nail right on the head. This article is an example of poor journalism that would rather create a sensational story at the expense of a man's reputation and the truth. Biden entered politics because of the civil rights movement and has a long record of ensuring the rights of all citizens. His statements in South Carolina were merely factual. I agree that words matter, but one of the complaints people have about politics is everyone seems disingenuous and prepackaged. If a person can't be a real person and make small talk/jokes, etc without pundits analyzing 10 word, out-of-context quotes, then our future is bleak.

Give it a rest fellers
Biden's justa panderin' away. Ifn you caint see it then yur a dang fool. That Lott feller pandered to Thurmond, you know, Biden's boon companion, and got in a heap o' trouble. But I reckon it's ok for Biden to do the same. This young missy's just a pointin' it out. I b'lieve they calls it reportin'.

disclaimer: i've actually combined mountain speech with southern speech because i'm trying to reach a larger audience.

If Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA) said the exact same things that Biden did, including insinuating that Hindis can only make donuts, you would be accusing him of being a racist or at least pandering to an audience.

copycat
Maybe Biden's biting Bush's style as a master malapropter? The difference is, people know what Bush means to say and that that he is sincere in his concerns and principles. And Biden is a democrat.

Slacker: VAWA?
"I hope he is successful against all the odds, because he is the type of person we need to lead this country. I will gladly vote for him in the primary and general election in spite of Parker's reservations about his political correctness."

What? This is the same Senator that essentially authored the sexist & unconstitutional "Violence Against Women Act" (VAWA.) This is the same Senator who testified before the Senate (in support of the VAWA) stating how, as a boy, he feared his sisters WRT violence & how men should allow themselves to be physically bullied by women no matter what the circumstance. Reality: women are just as capable of domestic violence as men; women commit the majority of child abuse; & women (10%-30% depending upon estimates) routinely commit the most despicable form for domestic abuse: paternity fraud.

Also, Senator Biden is the same foreign policy maven that thinks the solution to the Iraq “problem” is cutting the country into three (3) separate parts. The problem is the oil $ will then be concentrated in the Kurdish north & the Shiite south, w/ the Sunnis in the middle w/ no access to said wealth. Brilliant.

No, this country doesn’t need another self-loathing male/foreign policy “expert”, with a misplaced sense of post-modern chivalry, as the head of the Executive Branch. Radical feminists (NOW, etc.) have enough enablers/apologists in the Legislative & Judicial branches.

Lets not get all riled up over these
lib bloggers like Boris, slacker, and kimberly. You know that they rare here to stir us up.
No matter where you go you will find a few idiots and those few show up on a regular basis. Biden is another Kerry style elitist and like Kate said, Southerners are polite to a fault. You can bet your hound dog that the Rotary Club was not impressed. Something good may have come from it though. The Rotarians decided on one candidate to definitely NOT VOTE FOR.
Like Kerry, hunting in his brand-new camos, Ha Ha
Southerners may say Please, Thank you, Yes sir, and No ma'am. We may eat grits and core-pone, and have a drawl, but we are not stupid. Even Jed Clampett caught several cheats at their own game, and he was supposed to be a total Rube.
I am from Tennessee, but currently live in OH.
I enjoy seeing these politicians trying to relate to the South. It is and endless source of entertainment. I also enjoy reading blogs from our resident liberals and seeing them ripped by the rest of us.

I must learn to type slower,
and proof read better. Sorry for the goof-ups.
That just gives Kimberly and her ilk ammunition against Conservatives and the South.

Good Ole Boy Joe...
is from Scranton, Pa. Does that make him a "carpetbagger"?

SLAVERY
It's a fact of American History.

Muslims captured, paid others to capture or traded for negroes who they sold as slaves on the open market. The market was world-wide. Not only bound for the Americas.

Black Americans: If my great-grandfather had not owned your great-grandfather you would most likely be starving your azz off in Ethiopia or dying of AIDS or dead in Dafur.

Get over it.

SLACKER
SLACKER IS A BIG PILE OF
RHINO DUMO .

Joe "Grits" Biden . . .
is no more a southerner than I am (and I've lived in the south most of my life).

Biden has always been a sleazey politician, saying whatever he feels is appropriate, regardless of how he truly feels. Ignorant of the realities of any situation, Biden spouts out whatever homily or platitude seems to fit. Biden isn't two-faced, he's multiple-faced.

Biden has two chances to be prez: slim and none.

You people
are missing a really important fact pointed out by this piece, the msm. You will not see Biden crusified in the press because of this statement. What do you think would happen to a Republican who said something like this. Oh yes, we already know. Trent Lott.

NOT
Joe Biden is another slip and fall lawyer who like Chucky Schummer can't wait to hear his voice on tv. When was the last time worked for his state or the American people?

Buck...
I know you are not going to the long discredited "slavery was a good thing" well are you? There was nothing beneficial about slavery for either the enslaved or the slave holders. The enslaved had their cultures diluted, their religions banned, their women raped, and their families broken up...all for a monetary profit. Is that a good thing?

As for the slave holders, by willingly holding other humans as property, they defined hemselves as much less than civilized. What kind of man can honestly pretend that the enslavement of another man is good, righteous, or will profit his soul?

The enslavement Africans is THE stain on the American conscience and has become its 'original sin". True enough, slavry was a worldwide trade, but no one perfected it like Southern whites, who basec their entire economy on it. And we see all the hell that decision brought on this country.

As for your history, it is quite skewed. First, most Africans that were brought to the Americas and the Caribbean came from the west coast of Africa. Mainly they were taken from the countries that now are Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Ghana, and to a lesser extent Nigeria, Cameroon, and Congo as they had ready access to the sea. So we African-Americans would not likely be in Ethiopia or Sudan as they are on the east coast of Africa.

Further, most of the slaving was done by Europeans and African tribes, not by Muslims. Islam was born in Saudia Arabia in Asia, just off the east coast of Africa. During the slave trade, the Muslims had not come to dominate the continent. The Muslims may be guilty of a lot of things, but the American/European slave trade is not one of them.

You, my poor, ignorant friend, are the type of "conservative" that gives us all a bad name. When Kimberley and Phlo say that conservatives harbor racist feelings, you are the perfect idiot for them to point to.

Flagwaver is wrong . . .
about the muslims on the west coast of Africa.

Muslims conquered Northern Africa prior to the discovery of America. They continued to spread their religion throughout Africa.

You implied there were no Muslims in named West Africa countries from 1492 to 1861. The CIA would disagree.

Senegal: 94% Muslim
The Gambia: 90% Muslim
Sierra Leone: 60% Muslim
Guinea: 85% Muslim
Nigeria: 50% Muslim

To be fair, Ghana, Cameroon and Congo have less than 25% Muslim populations.

To make the claim that only Europeans and African tribes hunted and captured slaves is specious. With a huge Muslim presence in North Africa, it wouldn't be logical to assume there was no Muslim influence in West Africa.

Flagwaver, do you understand WHY slavery existed? Do you have any concept of labor and economics? Do you understand the history of slavery or do you just whine about how "unfair" it was and how "evil" southerners are?

Do not EVER get on your sanctimonious soap box until you become somewhat more educated in history, politics and economics.



Thought Control
Flagwaver said, "I know you are not going to the long discredited "slavery was a good thing" well are you? There was nothing beneficial about slavery for either the enslaved or the slave holders."

Of course there was much beneficial about slavery for the slaveholders. The center of the textile industry was moved from the near east to America due to the plantation system.

"As for the slave holders, by willingly holding other humans as property, they defined hemselves as much less than civilized. What kind of man can honestly pretend that the enslavement of another man is good, righteous, or will profit his soul? "

Rome lasted 1,000 years. Persia lasted even longer. Egypt... the list goes on. Sorry, you'll have to find another benchmark for "civilization". And the men who kept black slaves didn't regard the slaves as men. 200 years from now, maybe some bleeding heart will say the same thing about horses (which did far more for the advancement of America than all the slaves ever bought and sold.)

As for slavery... some people deserve to be slaves, not because of the color of their skins, but the content of their character. Those who would surrender essential liberties to the mercies of government bureaucrats, for example.

"Further, most of the slaving was done by Europeans and African tribes, not by Muslims....
The Muslims may be guilty of a lot of things, but the American/European slave trade is not one of them."

Look up the word "Janisarries". Google the bio of Cervantes. Grab a U.S. History book and look up "Tripoli". The moslem world was keeping European slaves long before there were colonies in the New World. But that doesn't count, because those slaves were white. We only weep for black slaves.

600,000 white men died in a misbegotten attempt to free the black slaves of the Confederacy. The result was 150 years of malice and descrimination, and the destruction of a culture that was in most ways superior to the wage-slave keeping Union.
Tell me, is it worse to work a black slave in the sun, in whom you've invested money, and therefore have a vested interest in keeping healthy, or is it worse to work white children 12-14 hours a day up to their knees in water in dank and dangerous factories on starvation wages, whom you don't have to feed or house because you can replace them tomorrow with more "undocumented workers"? At least slavery is more honest.

But the real issue here is the national willingness to embrace the disparagement of an entire class of people (using Dan Thomasson's phrase, whose editorial I found opposite Ms Parker's in my paper today.) It's outrageous for anyone to use the "N-word", worse even than making references to mating with one's female parent, but even Ms Parker throws the "R-word" around casually. As if applying denigrating stereotypes to white Southerners is perfectly okay, but doing so for blacks, jews, women, Lithuanians, what have you, is unacceptable.
Remember the story "Flowers for Algernon", where the retarded man ignorantly laughed at the cruel hoaxes and jokes perpetrated upon him by his friends, and then was ashamed when he was able to see what was really happening... and when he lost his intelligence again, concluded that it was more important to be liked than to be treated with dignity? We Southern European Americans ARE Charlie. Just to be accepted by small-minded, spiteful, hate-filled bigots, most of our own race if not our culture, we embrace humilating and denigrating stereotypes, an act we would be outraged to see were blacks or hispanics the targets. Heck, you can get yelled at for calling a latino "hispanic". But you can belittle a "white boy", "cracker" "redneck" and be lauded. As several politicians have discovered.




..and another thing
Flagwaver said:
"The enslaved had their cultures diluted, their religions banned, their women raped, and their families broken up...all for a monetary profit. Is that a good thing?"

It must be a good thing; it's happening to MY people now. My culture has been diluted, Christianity is being banned, white women are being raped, the divorce rate and "single-motherhood" is far higher than it was 50 years ago. All for monetary profit.




jdw
Good post.

Flagwaver is wrong on so many points; I didn't have the time to rip it to shreds. And TH.com doesn't like really long posts anyway.

Flagwaver and jdw
Flagwaver-"slavery is THE STAIN on the American conscience" is true for some- only because race hustlers like Jesse and Al continue to bleat on and on about it. It is not true for myself- my family came here in 1930. That is about 70 years after the end of slavery here. Better luck trying the "white guilt" on others!
jdw-check your history books, compadre; the Civil War was fought to preserve the Union. It pitted state's rights activists versus those who wanted a stronger central government. This war was truly the baby that gave us the over-reaching Federal govt. that we have today. Slavery was never a central issue.

Current Countries practicing slavery
http://www.ishr.org/sections-groups/wac/slavery2002.htm

Pretty sure they are majority mooslem and not Christian. Nor democratic republics. So anarchist commie pinko libs are wrong again in their retarded knowledge of history, religion, and human nature.

I recommend Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" if you want the real dope on some aspects of America's history.

biden
biden is another liberal anti gunner scum bag and now that his gang of gun grabbers is in power he and the other of his ilk will try to disarm americans once again,hopefully by next election what they do will get them voted out of power and pro gun candidates back in, as dems are already planning more anti gun bills to introduce in 2007,i guess there afraid that the people have the means to stop a tyranical communist take over by liberal gun banners so they must take away our right to keep and bear arms to be safe from the people that love freedom and want the means to stop anyone who would try to take it away. i dont understand why they always want to do that we all are americans supposedly.

Southern obsessions God, guns & gays
damn, Dean, you forgot 'coon huntin', squirrel huntin', fishin', bar-b-q, beer, and beatin' the living schidt out of ghoddamnyankees like yourse'f.

What in the blue hell
Is good about slavery? How can you say that some people deserve to be slaves? No one deserves to be treated worse than an animal for the financial benefit of others. Just because there was a financial gain to some does not mean that slavery was beneficial. By that logic, we should all be happy about the influx of illegal aliens into the country right now, because landscapers, construction companies, etc. are getting a financial benefit from employing illegals, right?

Further, I never stated that the Muslim population did no engage in the slave trade..it is an historical fact that they were involved. However, it is disengenuous to pretend that the Muslim population in Africa was a central player in the European/American slave trade. You cannot absolve the European/American slavers of their guilt by attempting to blame other people for their actions.

And am i to believe that simply because the slavers did not consider Africans to be men that it justifies slavery? Are you serious? Just because Rome kept slaves makes it right?

And to DavidMac, I know very well why America embraced slavery. It was a purely economic exercise. To successfully raise cotton crops, indigo, tobacco, etc. on a plantation there was an intensive need for labor. It also didn't hurt that many of the Africans put onto Southern plantations had knowledge from their homelands of how to cultivate these crops. But still, that does not justify holding people in slavery...nothing does. It is never alright to treat people as objects, as beasts of burden to enrich one group while being treated as woirse than farm animals. Do the two of you really believe that there is any histoical justification for enslaving a whole race of people?

I have read some things at this site that have rubbed me wrong, some that have angered me, and some that have made me scratch my head. But this is the first time in all my days that I have actually heard/read someone try to justify slavery. This is a real shocker for me. I did not actually believe that there were people in this world that could find anything good about the institution of slavery. Especially from people that claim to love freedom and the Constitution so much.

And as for DavidMac, I am a Southerner born and raised. I love it here and have no plans to leave. You did not at any time here me complain about how "evil" Southerners are...in fact I never referenced tye South other than to say the South perfected plantation slavery. And the fact is, they did. And when the chips were down, the reliance on slave labor and agriculture cost them any realistic chance of winning the Civil War.

The two of you...man...I just don't know what to say. And we on the conservative side so often wonder why the left cause us racists and the like. Posts like yours just gives them ammunition.

Some People Deserve to Be Slaves?!
jdw: "As for slavery... some people deserve to be slaves, not because of the color of their skins, but the content of their character. Those who would surrender essential liberties to the mercies of government bureaucrats, for example."

Scottie: While I agree with the overall sentiment, the volatile forum in which you unleashed this hyperbolic nugget is ill advised.
Clearly you do not believe anyone deserves to be a slave, do you? Would I be correct to restate this to "People unwilling to stand up for their liberties deserve the inevitable slavery they will get?"

Buck
To be fair, the former slaves did not benefit from being slaves, but from the fortune of being enslaved in a country that was willing to spend over 600,000 lives to end the practice. And nearly a hundred years later, actually delivered on the promise that that bloodshed made possible.

True, blacks in American today are the beneficiaries of more wealth and opportunity than would have been possible had their ancestors never been slaves, but the slavery itself and the subsequent maltreatment were not beneficial to them or the country. In fact slavery was such an evil that our country nearly died to be rid of it.

And it is callow to ignore that freedom had a pretty hollow ring to it until the civil rights movement forced us to take an honest look at our collective selves.

Blacks may enjoy a better life today than their ancestors in Africa, but it came at a tremendous price to them. To suggest otherwise is to deny the reality of our history.

Maybe I'm nitpicking here...
but I recall from high school history that there were only four slave states in the Union during the Civil War, one of which was created during the conflict. Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and West Virginia (which separated from Virginia over the slavery issue).

Delaware might have been a slave state before, but unless my memory is faulty, it *wasn't* a slave state during the Civil War. If I am right, his comments strike me as even more silly...

jdw,
The "R" word? Rotary?

Also,
Also:

"600,000 white men died in a misbegotten attempt to free the black slaves of the Confederacy. The result was 150 years of malice and descrimination, and the destruction of a culture that was in most ways superior to the wage-slave keeping Union.
Tell me, is it worse to work a black slave in the sun, in whom you've invested money, and therefore have a vested interest in keeping healthy, or is it worse to work white children 12-14 hours a day up to their knees in water in dank and dangerous factories on starvation wages, whom you don't have to feed or house because you can replace them tomorrow with more "undocumented workers"? At least slavery is more honest."

It sounds like you are justifying one evil by comparing it with another.

And,
"It must be a good thing; it's happening to MY people now. My culture has been diluted, Christianity is being banned, white women are being raped, the divorce rate and 'single-motherhood' is far higher than it was 50 years ago. All for monetary profit."

I'm not sure I follow you here. Obviously you are being sarcastic. But by being sarcastic, you are agreeing with Flagwaver. Which makes me wonder why you took issue with that particular quote to begin with. Other than being contrarian, that is.

Flagwaver
insists that when he writes, "The enslavement [of] Africans is THE stain on the American conscience and has become its 'original sin" no one should construe that as calling southerners "evil".

What the hell are you calling them then? Martians? You certainly are calling them sinners.

In my posts, I never advocated or defended slavery. I merely pointed out that you aren't educated enough to understand history, economic and politics, especially regarding slavery. You can call me names if you want to (from the safety of your keyboard), but you can't refute my arguments.

Your facts are not "facts", just suppositions and guesses. You wrote, "most of the slaving was done by Europeans and African tribes, not by Muslims."

And those Europeans and African tribes: they couldn't be Muslims, could they? How large was the Muslim Empire? Why you INSIST that very little slave trade to America was done by Muslims is beyond me. Muslims have been into slavery since Mohammad. Its what they do. To defend them is to support them.

Yeah, F.W., you're a real conservative.

Dmac, jdw, et al
You guys aren't really listening to Flag. He's not coming from where you think he is. You might drop by his blog and see what he's about.

Having said that, what are we really arguing here? That slavery is a good thing? I don't think that's really what you are arguing (maybe I'm wrong, let me know). I think you're angry at the hypocrisy of some blacks and the double standard that often exists. That's fine; just be careful when you notice your knee start to jerk. It leads you to defending the indefensible (or at least looking like you are). So, before we get any further with this, we should be clear on what we're arguing. Flag's main point was that slavery is not a good thing. If you agree with him on that, then say so. You can argue about who was trading who and from where, but at the end of the day, that has nothing to do with slavery being good or not.

David Mac
in your post you stated "I merely pointed out that you aren't educated enough to understand history, economic and politics, especially regarding slavery."

On what basis do you make this statement? How is it possible for you to know enough about Flagwaver to put this forth as a fact?

You then follow in the next paragraph with "Your facts are not "facts", just suppositions and guesses."

Surely you see the irony here.

This is so stupid!
Biden doesn't have enough HAIR to be president.

That's right.

Scottie
going over to your blog

My 2 cents worth!!
Biden is a bozo!!(I'm being polite)
I've been a southern wannabe for a while, but I sure don't pretend I'm one. Course I'm not running for office either! I'm stuck in NY W/ Shrillary & Schumer & a Soon to be governor who is famous for suing businesses!!
I need to read more about the "civil" war(is that name a contradiction?), but from what I've read recently, CVN 65(is that Enterprise?)& Radlad are correct!
It was mainly fought over states' rights!! Lincoln had gotten too powerful(oh how unpopular those words are).
The South secceded & didn't want a fight. Lincoln gave them no choice. While I also agree that this helped give us the way too large central government we have today, I also understand that it started before the war with people wanting the government to build roads & bridges; which most today(including conservatives) would say is the government's job. I don't know how to do a link, but check out this site. It's titled "Not yours to give" by David Crockett
http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm
How could any true conservative disagree?!

Cool!!
The site did a link automatically- so cool!!
I wasn't aware this could be done! Learn something new everyday!!

jerubaal,
Too true.

Flagwaver
You need to get over your knee-jerk reaction to the mention of slavery. I didn't say it was good OR bad. I just stated facts.
I am on in years and 3 generations removed from my slaveholding forebears. When the Yankees came through and told the family slaves they were free, they left. And they all came back and worked the same plantation as freemen. They worked there until my g-grandfather died. He also gave them his family name which their decendents still have. My great-grandmother had a personal servant...I think they were called 'bodyservants'. The old woman had first been her wetnurse, then the nanny and then bodyservant and until the day she died she stayed with my g-grandmother. A few years later when my g-grandmother died, her last words were to Hattie, her servant long dead. She said, "Hattie, get your hat, we're going to church." This is family history. The reason I share it is to show you that you seem to hold more hatred for the slave owners than did former slaves. No, I don't think slavery was anything but immoral. But at the same time do not get the idea that slaves were treated like 'Mandango' or 'Drum'. A good field hand cost $1800 pre-civil war Yankee dollars. To abuse a slave as in the pulp fiction would be like today's farmer buying a quarter-million dollar John Deere Combine and taking it out and running it headlong into a big tree. This is not justification. This is just fact.

The real question is
whether Plagerizin' Joe Biden can get the rest of his hair plugs installed in time.

Slavery immoral?
Those who scream the loudest about the immorality of slavery vote for those who would enslave the free people of our constitutional republic to big government (Democrat party & RINOs) - aka communism.

buck
I hold no hatred for anyone. But to pretend that all slaves loved their masters or were treated well is a farce. Put ypourself in the position of a newly freed slave...you have no land, no home, and nowhere to go. So what do you do? You stay in the one place that you know, with the people you know...not necessarily out of love but out of neccessity. For a freed slave, survival was job one. And if you want a clearer picture of what slavery was really about there are plenty of slave narratives out there. Read some of them, then tell me that the former slaves thought that slavery was beneficial.

DavidMac
When I said that the enslavement of Africans is the stain on America's conscience as has become its original sin, I never referenced or highlighted the South...I said America. Slavery, in case you didn't know it, stretched from Georgia to New York to South Carolina to Boston. There were slave holders all over the country...and they were all wrong to be slaveholders. It was immoral and yes, in my view it was sinful.

And do not try to say that I am defending Muslims, when it is clear that I am not. I am not, however, going to allow you or anyone else to make the transatlantic slave trade a function of Muslim rule in Africa. The Muslims may have profied some, but the plantation owners, small farmers, and owners of household servants benefitted more. That is a fact! That is why the entire Southern economy was built on the backs of slave labor, and it is why it collapsed during the Civil War.

And to say that I do not understand history, economics, etc. is very bold of you...seeing that you know nothing about me. In my view, you may know some history but you have formed you own interpretations of what you know. Thus, you can conclude that because there were economic benefits derived from slavery by some that slavery seved some good purpose. I reject that interpretation and still say that there is nothing good that has come from the institution of slavery, anywhere that is has been practiced.

And to say that slavery has been THE stain on the American conscience has nothing to do with Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton. This country has struggled with the effects of slavery and its aftermath until the present day.

And please, do not try to challenge my conservative bona fides. You do not know enough about me to make judgements on my beliefs, and if you did you would know that I am a conservative. But being a conservative does not mean that I have to pretend that something so vile as slavery was in any way beneficial to this nation. And as I believe in personal accountability, it remains my view that America cannot put the blame for its involvment in the slave trade at the feet of the Muslims. America was an enthusiastic participant, a huge portion of the country built a lifestyle and economy around slave labor and advanced the myth of racial superiority. I don't think that the Muslims forced them into that, do you?

Finally, it is my view that it is NOT conservative to defend slavery on any grounds. If that is what it means to be a conservative, then maybe I, and a lot of others, better rethink whether we're conservative or not!

Flagwaver
Another misconception is everyone in the South owned slaves. Read my last post. Very few people could afford $1800 for a slave to work the fields. Only 10% of the people in the South owned slaves. Not justification. Just fact.

P.S.
$1800 pre-civil war gold Yankee dollars today would be a chunk of change.
This was at a time when Henry David Throe lived on Walden Pond for $8.00 a year.
And if a landowner had a particular job to do that was dangerous or hazardous to your health, he did not use his slaves. He hired an Irish immigrant for 25 cents a day so as not to endanger his investment.

Slavery
Slavery was natural in the ancient world. The reason for this was that in order to allow people to survive, you needed more labor than was available. With the practice of slavery, you could have "disposable" people and when the crops were bad or other problems arose, you could eliminate their drag on the society. It is morally repugnant to consider people in such a way, but that was the reason they were ubiquitous in the ancient world.

Once we got into the modern world, and especially into the industrial age in the 1800s, this reason did not apply. We simply were no longer on the edge of the survival knife as a people. The only reason that it survived was that there was stoop labor in the fields to be done and good Christians had told themselves that they were rescuing heathens from their pagan ways in Africa. Around this time, there were indentured servants who were white, but nearly all white slavery had disappeared in the colonies. After all, they were good Christians and did not need to be taken care of any more.

Slavery did create in some the "Stockholm Syndrome" so that some of the slaves clung to their positions. That does not justify it. And the stain of slavery DOES carry down today. Some in the conditions of the poor, but most in the "white man's burden" concepts given by the liberals. We are still rescuing the poor heathens. After all they cannot do it themselves. I say stop it. Blacks, browns, and all colors of people are just that. People.

Eliminate institutional racism and get on with living the lives g*d intended.

Demosthenes, learn to read ...
... before you make silly comments. Biden's plan is NOT to cut the country into three parts as you misrepresent it. It is a plan to AVOID that you silly goose...

It states:
"This plan is NOT partition – in fact, it may be
the only way to prevent violent partition and preserve a unified Iraq. This plan is consistent with Iraq's constitution, which provides for Iraq's 18 provinces to join together in regions, with their own security forces, and control over most day-to-day issues. This plan is the only idea on the table for dealing with the
militia, which are likely to retreat to their respective regions. This plan is consistent with a strong central government, with clearly defined responsibilities. Indeed, it provides an agenda for that government, whose mere existence will not end sectarian violence."

Your comments on the VAWA are both irrelevant and silly. First if you are talking about the 1998 version of it, that bill was co-sponsered by two REPUBLICANS, Specter and Hatch. Again, this validates my point that Biden is able to work across party lines to get things done. Second, what he said about the purpose of the bill is

"The bill ... provides a comprehensive approach to combating domestic violence. It stiffens penalties for repeat offenders, provides more money for vital services and will help battered women get the assistance and support they need,” continued Biden..."

While you may quibble with elements of the bill, picking on a few words people say and wringing your hands because they are not what you say is the "politically correct" way to speak is just as silly as Parker.

Buck, you are almost beneath contempt...
I say "almost" because I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just ignorant and your comments providing a false rationale for slavery do not spring from a pure evil nature.

Slavery is just plain wrong and evil. It does not matter who the slave owner is, their motives for enslaving another human being, or how well they treat their slaves.

Your story about your g-grandmother and her slave that you think is so touching is actually chilling for anyone with a shred of decency and understanding of human nature.

Rationalizations like your statement

"A good field hand cost $1800 pre-civil war Yankee dollars. To abuse a slave as in the pulp fiction would be like today's farmer buying a quarter-million dollar John Deere Combine and taking it out and running it headlong into a big tree. This is not justification. This is just fact."

are evil on so many levels that it turns my stomach, and should greatly offend anyone with a shred of decency. Can you not see evil in comparing a human being to a machine or in rationalizing that if a slave were perceived as "expensive" then slave would somehow be protected from abuse? If you think that anyone can wash away the evil of enslaving another human being by saying they care for that slave or that the slave cares for them, you ARE beneath contempt.

And what about slaves who tried to assert their human dignity and escape from their masters? How were they treated if they tried to learn to read or educate themselves? How were those who were too old, too sick, too weak, too handicapped to be worth $1800 treated? How were spouses, parents or children who did not want to be separated from their families treated when the slave owner needed some cash and decided to sell them?

If our ancestors really cared about slaves as human beings equal to themselves in their own eyes or the eyes of god they would never have owned them or had any respect for those who did.

Flagwaver
It is perfectly natural for you to bristle when any possible benefits of slavery are proposed. Going back to topic, it was not slavery that was proposed as beneficial, but that the descendants of the slaves, here now, benefit from being here. Doubtless some small fraction of blacks came over here as free men. Their descendants are also lucky to have emigrated to a first world country. Just as i believe the US is lucky to have you here (we need all the good men we can get) so you benefit from being born here, just as i do, and for the same reason. My ancestors probably had more choice than yours, but that has nothing to do with us, here, and now. Some folks bristle and try to sugar coat slavery because they are reacting to unjustified accusations that they are somehow responsible for things that happened long ago. Most of these folks feel this is unfair, because they know they are not bigots, and that they lead lives of respect for all ethnicity. As for me, i made a deal with Sammy Davis Jr. I wouldn't hold him responsible for crucifying Jesus if he didn't hold me responsible for slavery.

Crocket article
Bible Thumper,

I don't know if this was the appropriate thread for that article, but thank you for posting it anyway. While I have read refrences to it, I have never read the whole story. Truly inspiring, but sad that this type of politician is extremly hard to find today.

Your welcome,Pat in Atlanta!

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate thread either, but some here had talked of states' rights & big government which of course involves spending our money on things the government should not get involved in! This made me think of that article.
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed it & thanks for the encouragement!
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