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Friday, April 27, 2007
Jonathan Garthwaite :: Townhall.com Columnist
Romney is the first to be in
by Jonathan Garthwaite
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Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Millions of campaign dollars are already flowing in and out of campaigns. The candidates are on the road and maneuvering for endorsements and press coverage. Dozens of mainstream media polls are already anointing front-runners and also-rans, but the real campaign doesn’t get going until the candidates look each other eye to eye and face off in a debate.

“Romney is in.” That’s the word I got late last night as the Democrats were warming up their rhetorical muscles and I sat down to watch their debate -- a 90 minute episode of “Attack the President.” Eight “war-is-lost” Democrats on one stage, more a train wreck of defeatism than must see TV.

The Republicans will get a chance with our planned Salem Radio and Townhall.com debate. It is expected to be Florida's first nationally broadcast presidential debate – and Mitt Romney is in.

Romney is the first candidate to commit to the debate. He and his campaign understand that the road to the nomination goes through the conservative base of freedom loving, family-oriented Americans. The Salem Radio Network and Townhall.com reach millions of these voters each week.

Florida -- with its 27 electoral votes is a must-have state for any Republican candidate trying to win the presidency. And in 2008 it is going to be even more pivotal. The state is moving up its primary election date to January 29 making it the first big state primary of the year and victory will give the winning candidate momentum going into Super Tuesday.

The listeners of conservative talk radio will play a pivotal role in selecting the Republican nominee. Before the internet, talk radio was the only medium for conservative voices to be heard. Townhall.com has combined with talk radio to create a platform for conservative leaders and grassroots activists alike to make their voice heard on the important issues of our day. And that is what our planned debate would be about.

Following the debate, listeners and viewers will vote for their candidate of choice on Townhall.com in the most significant straw poll thus far in the campaign. Online readers will also have the opportunity to connect with their favorite candidate to volunteer and help raise money.

Townhall.com, part of the Salem Web Network, is the largest conservative opinion, news and community site with nearly 2 million unique readers each month. With commentary from more than 200 of the nation's best known conservative writers, over 120 leading conservative organizations, over 3,600 grassroots blogs and the talk radio talent of Bill Bennett, Mike Gallagher, Michael Medved, Dennis Prager, and Hugh Hewitt, Townhall.com is the center of the conservative world online.

The Romney campaign understands that the Salem Radio Network and Townhall.com’s audience is full of Americans ready to contribute to – and volunteer for their campaign. We look forward to welcoming other candidates to the forum.

With the participation of some of the other top candidates, millions of Americans will be able to turn to Townhall.com and tune into the Salem Radio Network, hear the candidates make their case to be the Republican presidential nominee, and participate in the largest Republican straw poll ever.

The results of the Townhall.com straw poll will send a clear message of where the Republican field stands with the conservative base of talk radio listeners and internet activists.

In 2008 Republicans will nominate their standard-bearer for the presidential election and the process kicks-in this summer at Townhall.com.

Mitt Romney is in and as our efforts to bring you this debate continues, Townhall.com readers will be the first to know.

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About The Author

Jonathan Garthwaite is the editor-in-chief of Townhall.com.

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Man, I hope Fred participates
Then gets a resoundingly positive poll number.

That waould send a very clear message to a lot of folks that need it: not only the Dems but also the GOP itself.

We'll see.

Fred
My checkbook's ready...

Is it possible

For Fred to participate without being a declared candidate? I don't think so, but it would be great if it were.

Even better will be if the 'straw poll' has a "none of the above" choice for viewers & listeners to check off in the event THAT is how they feel.

Fred might not be able to take part BUT that doesn't mean he wouldn't draw something from this debate. He stated at the very outset that he wanted to "wait and see how it pans out, see how they do, how it develops" when talking about the timing of his entry into the race.

He also said in the same interview - "It will be interesting to me as I listen to people and learn and watch what's going on and what's the reaction, and the poll numbers and so forth, as to whether or not my instinct on that is right."

If Fred Thompson is not able to participate (though I too hope he does) it will not be the end of the line. In fact, it may be to his advantage to find out who is the strongest if there is a clear winner, or to evaluate which of the candidates taking part would make a good running mate (or otherwise).


Talk Radio
Romney needs all of the coverage he can get. I have been wondering why they have not been running talk radio ads. Their 2 million cable tv ad announcement made sense but why not drop a few mill into talk radio.

The thing that worries me the most about the Romney campaign is that they are slower than a 2 toed sloth at doing the right things to correct thier weaknesses. It is not a matter of money it is a case of flat footed rigor mortise.

Gabby
If Romney gets the nomination do not be too surprised if he picks Rice for VP, especially if he is facing a Hillary/Obama ticket.

You need to drop the racist line on the Mormons. As I recall it was Protestants who started the Klan. Further, the Mormons have one of thier fastest growth rates in Africa and do reasonably well at reaching Blacks in the US.

Old time conservative, Richard Viguerie
remarks on the current Republican candidates.

Richard Viguerie at CPAC 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxIg3tgryKM

BG
Rice is yet another member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Just FYI.

Gabby
I am very insulted by you comment about my religion. Were is you proof that I am racist? I don't think you have a clue as to what you are saying.

Very Sad indeed.

Freedom Isn't Free

Damcon1(SW/MTS)
Mid Atlantic Regional Maintenance Center (MARC)
We Fix Ships

Gabby
I am Mormon and I take offense to you calling me racist. I don't think you have a clue as to what you are even ranting about.

I could go into facts and doctrine but it would obviously be a waist of my time.

Freedom Isn't Free

Damcon1(SW/MTS)
Mid Atlantic Regional Maintenance Center (MARMC)
We Fix Ships

Gabby, you've got to be kidding
It is comments such as yours that completely distract from the real issues. When you Evangelical elitists get done hacking away at those who don't fit into your narrow view of religion, you may end up with about 15% of the electorate. Good job Gabby! You are a great advocate of eliminating a very large constituency of conservative Republicans. It's people like you that sometimes make me want to register Democrat.




Amer

These next 2 years are vital to the future of this country. For 2007 we must make certain that McCain/Kennedy or whatever it's called this year does not pass the House. It will pass the Senate. The President will sign it, followed by the Totalization Treaty with Mexico, which qualifies former illegals with just 6 qtrs(18 mo) even if worked illegally, the benefits that we had to work 40 qtrs(10 yrs) to qualify for.

In 2008 we must make the candidates address border security and immigration enforcement.
20-30 million citizens of other countries are in our country illegally, 55% from Mexico, most of the rest from other Central and South American countries. Let's not ignore the leftward voting trends of these countries. It is notable that they picked May Day, an old communist day of celebration for their marches.

Most polls show at least half of the American citizens of Hispanic descent want the borders and laws enforced. Republicans will not win by alienating their current voters to get 40% of a new small block that will grow very large, very fast if amnesty is granted. That will grow the Democrats vote larger and faster as the influx increases exponentially as the result of another amnesty. It will spell the end of the Republican Party. The people who used to vote Republican will stop voting or form a new party. Conservatives will lose political influence and we will slide inexorably towards socialism (it has already started).

Most of what you hear about this issue is political propaganda that tries to convince you to give up your country without a fight, including on Fox News. The big money players are all on board the cheap labor express, they care not that American citizens do not want another amnesty. We know the last one resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard of our laws. The next one will be equally successful.

We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. Citizenship is meaningless.

If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other country, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.

Rice
Yes I am aware that Rice is closely tied to the Neo con strategies and has other baggage. However, if you run two old white men against an Obama/Hillary or vis versa ticket the Dems can take a play from Rove's book and rev up their base and win easily. The Dems interest level is already high and women and blacks are the core of the Dem vote.

It would be best to add a Hispanic to the Republican ticket but we do not have a prominent one that I know of. Especially one who has credibility on immigration.

In Defense
Actually Gabby was attacking one verse in the Book of Mormon by taking it out of context and then implying that Mormons are racist.

That same tatic can be done to the Old Testament where Israel is told to "kill everything" in taking over the promised land. The inhabitants of that land also just happened to be black so I guess your could imply that anyone who believed the Old Testament also believes in both racism and genocide.

Actually, the Mormons should hope the anti's do attack the Book of Mormon. In doing so they cause a lot more people to read it.

If you leave the Mormon church alone it will grow. If you attack it, it will grow faster.

I am not going to explain how or why that works but it usually does work that way in the long run.

BG
I understand what you're getting at and it would probably be a wise strategy. But, don't you think we should pick people that are true conservatives to be on the ticket, instead of just accepting someone based on their sex or nationality?

I think true conservatism still resonates with the American people, don't you? It's just been so long since so many have heard it, I think many have forgotten what it truly is all about.

- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty

Gabby - On Mormons and Blacks
Others have responded to your comment; but in addition I'd recommend a website for you to learn about the issue from Black Mormons.

http://www.blacklds.org

You might be surprised to find out that some things you have been told are not true.

reply to Liberty
Thanks for the link to Viguerie! I love to hear a prominent conservative telling other conservativs not to support McCain, Giuliani, or Romney. Of course Viguerie's correct--none of these three are conservatives. As a liberal Democrat, I'm looking forward to seeing conservatives sit out the 08 election, thus helping the Democrats win. So, Mr. Viguerie, keep talking!

Why not
have those guys come in here with us... real people? I'd really like to know how Romney or Rudy should expect us to trust them on Right to Life issues. I'd like to know how either rationalizes a position that denies the FIRST human civil right to the most innocent among us.

I'd like to know from McCain how we can trust him not to erode our ability to change our gov't through further campaign finance laws. The limits he crafted should have been called the incumbent entrenchment act. It takes tremendous resources to uproot an incumbent. Spending limits is one way to prevent a successful removal campaign... especially the removal of a Republican by a genuine conservative.

Mormons
Once had policies and doctrines against black much like other religions. They changed them in the 70's.

Within the last 20 years, I heard a Baptist pastor proclaim that whites and blacks shouldn't attend church together... I never went back there. But that isn't the rule... it is the radical exception. The best two fundamental Baptist Churches I've attended had members and frequent attendees from minority races.

One had 2-4 mixed race couples in a church of about 40-50 families along with other minority couples.

Mormonism's problem isn't racism per se... it is theology starting with their doctrines of God, man, and salvation. BTW, they aren't growing in America. They annually lose as many members as they gain. Their growth is in less educated nations where the alluring offer of being able to become a "God" plays better.

I sincerely doubt that Romney would attempt to impose Mormonism or would stand a chance of getting away with it.

His religion doesn't bother me so much as his waffling on important issues to please his audience.

MARXIST ALERT!

.....TH ....

.....Gestell is an admirer of Karl Marx and a confirmed Marxist so filter whatever he posts through that prism .....COLOSSUS

Romney's predicament
Mormon's should not be smeared as racist based on their religious association. I think Gabby should have been more accurate to say the racist doctrines are historical, and are not applied to modern Mormonism. This is based my first hand experience in growing up as an active faithful Mormon in the 1970's when the controversies raged around their denial to allow full membership to those alledgedly less valiant souls in the pre-existance who where born with the "Mark of Cain" as a curse and punishment.

In practice, Mormons have since overcome their past racist teachings since extending full membership priveledges to any worthy person in 1978. The biggest vulnerability is that faithful Mormons still revere their historical leaders as inspired spritual men guided by God yet their own historical documents show these same leaders preaching racist doctrines in an official capacity. Today's faithful Mormons take great offense to anyone citing this because the Mormon church as an institution understandably buries these non-faith promoting facts only revealing a white washed version of this history to their members.

If Romney was a Democrat like Robert KKK Byrd, he would get a pass, but lets not forget Trent Lott's punishment for praising Strom Thurmond in general as a good leader yet at the time Strom was a segregationist. This is pretty close to the situation Romney may find himself as they try to unjustly smear him as a racist. I think Romney will take the route of the offended posters on this board, and say it is a ridiculous charge while denying or avoiding the subject of the past racist teachings. The risk is that his political enemies only have to go back 30-40 years to find some pretty damaging stuff. I was there, and they will be able to find other first hand witnesses and reliable documents.

New Territory
Dear Liberty

You have very good points. I hope that such a campaign is viable in 2008. However, until we can get a resolution to Iraq it will be very difficult to use the strategy that we did in 2004. We might have made it work in 2006 except ABC broke the Foley scandel at the right time to manipulate the outcome of that election.

There are reasons why Guiliani and McCain are running as strong as they are with conservatives. One of the prirmary reasons is that they are percieved as winning in the general. Unless Romney and/or Thompson can show that they consistently beat Obama/Hillary in national head to heads it will be very difficult to pry enough conservatives away from Guiliani and McCain.

Once a conservative gets into the general they will have to pick up votes from the Independents and that is very hard to do as long as Iraq goes poorly.

We are at a critical juncture in the history of this nation. If we lose Iraq, Afganistan will also fall to the terrorists. That will effect Pakistan and eventually set up nuclear Pakistan vs a nuclear Iran as the Sunnis and Shites terrorist states fight over Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab world.

It is probable that we would defend Saudi Arabia, another Arab nations from the Sunni terror regime that would take over Afganistan and the Shite Iranian terrorist state.

It is also probable that they will set aside thier difference long enough to attack Israel which would drag us back into it in a hurry.

No candidate has come up with a comprensive plan for preventing the take over of the middle east by terrorists. Our success in Iraq is dependent on the Iraq factions finding a way to make things work and that is a very iffy proposition.

We have to have a different strategy. One of the best tactics would be to drop the price of oil to the floor but we do not seem to be able to do that quickly.


Mitt's religion no problem for Christian
voters. I think if Romney is nominated, conservative Christians will overwhelmingly vote for him. Elections are about politics, not religion - most Christians are intelligent enough to recognize this.

The problem for Romney (and the GOP if he's the nominee) is non-Christians. When nominal Christians and secular Americans learn about some of the truly distasteful tenets and history of Mormonism, they will REFUSE to vote for someone who is a member of that church. Think about it; these people have trouble with Bush because he reads the Bible and prays daily - AND believes in that "disgusting" Golden Rule!! :)

Gabby Gabs
Dearie,

The blacks and Mormons issue is old news. Get over it. Everyone here is living in 2007 and you're somewhere back there in 1960 or before. What about the ploygamy thing? That's old news too.

Get with the times, Gabs. And tell your "informed" sources like "angelfire.com" and "askmoses.com" and "christians_aganst_cults.org" and "what-they-wont-tell-you.com" to grow up and get with the times too. You're all a bunch of losers living in some 1960 Christian fantasy land. Are you still afraid of Catholic presidents too?

Condi VP in 2008
BG, thanks for stepping up to the 2008 plate with the most qualified person to become the next VP (I would prefer president) on the GOP ticket. Your strategy is correct that if Hillary or Obama is on the other ticket, our side needs a woman and a minority member to show the diversity of our party.
Her stature on the world stage is still comparable to a Rock Star, and only the Bush-haters of the world try to attack her. She has the foreign policy experience needed in the next White House and from DAY ONE, she will be prepared to enter the executive branch, ready to serve our nation.

BG, if you want more information, go to:
http://www.thinkcondi.net

Thanks again for your choice of Condi as VP.

BG
RE: Talk Radio;
You can get http://www.KSFO.com on line.
The Hanity show comes on @ 3:PM Pacific time. (Mon.-> Fri.)
He has candidates on twice per week.
People do call in with questions but you know the chances of getting through to be one.

Who to vote FOR?
Not sure.
Know some I will NOT vote for though!

Hispanic VP candidate
Isn't the Attorney General Hispanic? Oh, that's right, he would have to be qualified on immigration and other important things, such as preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Gestell
Viguerie said nothing about anyone sitting the election out and it will be a cold day in hell before a conservative will vote for any of the socialist pigs running on the Democratic ticket.

However, it is my hope that conservatives do not vote for the same socialist pigs that have an "R" appended to their name. We actually do have a couple of good conservative choices.

Hope that addresses your concern. ;-)

sjt18 takes a crap and leaves
sjt18: you come in here and say Rudy, Romney and McCain all suck, but you don't offer an alternative. That is a tactic of the liberals. Just complain, complain, complain, offering nothing of substance to the conversation.

Also, you stated something incorrect. The LDS church gained about 250 new congregations in the USA last year. Yes, they are growing faster in Africa and South America than in the US but to say they are not growing is incorrect.

BG
Well, our views on foreign policy differ substantially. I think what we are currently doing is extremely ill-advised. It is my belief that if we continue this policy of intervening in other country's affairs that have not attacked us, or pose an imminent threat, we will do nothing more than create one heck of a lot of people that have a valid grudge against us. There is no better way to create allies amongst peoples that don't really even like each other than to create a common enemy for them to join together to oppose. We have been walking directly into that trap and we'd better stop it, or we're going to be heading for a world of hurt.

Just in case you come back at me with 9-11, I will go on and state that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11; no Al Qaeda was there until after we went in there. I am all for going after those that attacked us, but that is not what we are doing now and haven't been since day 1.

Scotty
Ron Paul
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
http://www.youtube.com/RonPaul2008dotcom
http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul2008
http://www.myspace.com/congressmanronpaul
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html

His new book on foreign policy:
http://www.mises.org/store/Foreign-Policy-of-Freedom-A-P359C0.aspx?AFID=2

"There is one and only one voice in Congress for a foreign policy of freedom, and it belongs to Ron Paul, who has stood alone for freedom for many years. Ron is the seemingly impossible: a voice for reason and truth in a den of thieves." -- the Mises Institute

Tom Tancredo
http://www.teamtancredo.com/

Need for Unity, Energy, Victory
If Fred is running, he will show up. If not, well, we'll see him on "Law and Order." Anyway, on my Townhall blog I've been raising the critical question: Is the U.S. ready for a President named "Fred?" We took a chance on a "Jimmy," and look what that led to!

Romney is on the rise, and it's not only his ability to extract lots of money from traditionally tight-fisted Mormons.

As for Townhall.com, it's goal so be to mobilize conservatives who will do more than write comments about how they really wish Reagan would run again. Conservative ideas are good and even essential. But at a certain point, our "opinions" should go to the back burner, and we need to mobilize to win. After watching the Dems last night, I decided I don't care all that much who the Republican nominee is. Snow-Dingy and the Seven Dwarfs scare me. I hope they scare you too.

Let the battle begin.

steve

Republican hopefuls
Please give equal coverage to Ron Paul, Duncan Hunter, Tom Tancredo and Newyt. Any combination of these four would get my vote over all others; the present front-runners are becoming panderers and grandstanders in defense of a democracy our Founders warned us against while the others still believe in a Constituted Republic. Where in the Constitution does it mention democracy as our form of government? Paul, Hunter, Tancredo and Newyt know it isn't there, but Romney and the rest don't have a clue, just like all the democrats.

Steve
"I decided I don't care all that much who the Republican nominee is."

It is THIS kind of thinking that got us into the mess we're in. A globalist socialist pig is a globalist socialist pig, regardless of whether they have an R or a D, appended to their name.

BTW--- Hate Crimes legislation
is being voted on today. If you want to stop it, you might want to start calling. It is HR 1592.

Run Romney Run
I think Mitt Romney is a great candidate, and I'm glad he is the first to join the debate. He at least represents a more "main stream" point of view. I think when all is said and done Mitt Romney will be a force within the Republican party, not too liberal, not too conservative. I do believe he will ultimately be more successful than "Rudy", who is a social "LIBERAL". I don't know of any Christian, or person of faith, who supports the social agenda of the former mayor of New York.

Condi for what????
Cris:

Obviously you forgot to take your medication this morning. Condi for vice president--or for that matter anything? This woman is one of the dumbest and overrated individuals in this country. If she wasn't black she would be nothing. She has been around for a few years now and has yet to make a profound statment on anything. Even worse, she's a Busher--and who needs more of that?

And this other baloney about the Repubs having to show their diversity. Wouldn't it be better to show their intelligence instead? Why should anyone care about diversity? I wouldn't care if 5 redheaded guys named O'Toole ran the government as long as they knew what they were doing and ran it according to the Constitution. If Romney wins this he should pick Tancredo because at least this guy passionately believes something. And I wouldn't care if he was black and blue.

Why Mitt loves debates
He has nothing to loose in a debate, and what's more: his greatest opponent is misinformation - and there's probably more misinformation about him than any other candidate. No, I'm not just talking about lack of information, but MISinformation. He also does incredible in front of the camera. It loves him, and he loves it.

McCain, on the other hand gets less appealing every moment I see him speak.

Giuliani has even less to gain by getting into a debate, and everything to loose. Soon people will realize he's still just riding the 9/11 wave that saved his mayorship in 2001.

In most cases, incumbants and well known candidates take huge risks when going into a debate. Inprivate they can paint whatever picture they want and the public will lap it up regardless how contrived it is. Improv though can kill a candidate, and does so more often than not.

Bush wouldn't have ever won if he had publically debated as much as Mitt wants to do.

Mitt will never shy away from a debate.

Good enough for Jerry Falwell
Said he about Mitt after spending an evening with him, along with 15 other highly respected evangelical leaders:
"... we're not electing a Sunday School Teacher, we're electing a President. I do not believe Romney's church affiliation will hinder his being a viable candidate among evangelicals." (NewsMax april 2007)

Apparently he Falwell never met Gabby.

Richard Land (the policy arm of Southern Baptists - historically one of the most anti-mormon churches) said "If they agree with Romney on social issues his mormonism won't be a hinderance, ESPECIALLY IF HE'S THE ONLY VIABLE SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE IN THE MIX" (Newsmax april 2007, caps added).

Apparently Richard never met Gabby either.

The top dogs in Christianity seem to be on board, even suggesting that he might be the most socially conservative, but it's Christianity's middle management that seems to have a problem. Apparently 175 years of religious prejudice is hard to erase.

The debate
My info is that there will be a debate on May 3rd at the Reagan Library, from 5 until 6:30 pm, and I think it will be broadcast nationwide. I know Duncan Hunter will be participating, and best all othere there. He is the best candidate for President since Ronald Reagan. Am in a rush just now, to catch Rush. He is to come out with some hitherto Top Secret in time for the weekend news cycle. I can guess it; for I've listened to him since he started. The rule for predictability about Rush is:Follow the money.

MTnman
I think this is an open debate. If your candidates so superior it will come out. Don't worry. Isn't democracy and free speech grand?!


Personally, I think a free and open nationally accessible debate should be sponsored every two months by the major TV networks from here on out: that's 10 topics. That would equall the playing field better than any campaign reform bill could possibly do.

Mitt
Perhpas Mitt will be able to justify his munltiple documented flip flops on abortion, same-sex marriage,civil unions, gun control,and market based healthcare. I wonder if the moderator will even ask him those tough questions which clearly show him to be a Republican John Kerry.

I wonder if any of the moderators will ask him how he justifies leaving Mass with a totalitarian-socialist healthcare system (RomneyCare, same sex marriage( which he had the clear authority to halt but chose not to)and thousands of individuals and businesses flocking out of the state as fast as they can.

Are there any real investigtive jounalists out there who will ask the tough questions of this slick pol who will say anything to get elected?

Dave Austin
Please cite the location of the term "democracy" in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Washington's Farewell Address, Jefferson's First Inaugural, Monroe Doctrine, Gettysburg Address, Pledge, or the present Military Training Manual. References are to a Constituted Republic, not the socialism we have masked, in our classrooms, with the term "democracy."

Kathy
I am beginning the think you are stupid. As has been said on other threads.

"It was Romney who HEADED the fight AGAINST gay marriage in MA! Unfortunately he was up against an extremely liberal legislature. No one else has had to demonstrate veto power as he has. No one else has had to stand up to social liberals like he has.

"So if the issue is his social conservatism, you are not doing your research, Kathy. Google "An Open Letter Regarding Governor Mitt Romney" and you will see that he has led the fight against social liberalism since he was elected governor.
Those of you who are buying into the MSM's label of Romney as a "flip-flopper" are either failing to do your research, or else you have other motives for disparaging perhaps the most qualified candidate we've had in years."

Scotty
"sjt18 takes a crap and leaves
sjt18: you come in here and say Rudy, Romney and McCain all suck, but you don't offer an alternative. That is a tactic of the liberals. Just complain, complain, complain, offering nothing of substance to the conversation."

Do what? I didn't "take a crap". I said I'd like them give direct answers to my concerns about them. I haven't really written any of them off except for Rudy. He has neither the moral character nor ideals that we need in a President IMO.

Otherwise, I am not at a place to "offer an alternative". If I could appoint someone President at this point out of that group it would probably be Huckabee, Thompson, or Hunter.

"Also, you stated something incorrect. The LDS church gained about 250 new congregations in the USA last year. Yes, they are growing faster in Africa and South America than in the US but to say they are not growing is incorrect."

According to a university study that came out within the past couple of years, the LDS overstates its growth by not accurately counting those who leave. It reported that their net growth was 0% with equal numbers coming and going.

Adding 250 congregations does not mean that they increased membership. It only means they operate more buildings.

BTW
The same is probably true of other groups as well.

I believe the source
was CUNY. They do deeper research if I understand correctly.

Mormon...
Mormonism is a CULT... NOT Christian. One's faith does not directly but indirectly play a role in their political position. And I will not vote nor do I know of any Christians who will vote for Romney. Go Fred Thompson go...

I was here in Massachusetts, I saw it...
> gunlock bill writes: "It was Romney who
> HEADED the fight AGAINST gay marriage in MA!

Just like AlGore invented the internet. I was here, I didn't see the Mittster doing this. In fact, he bent over backwards to pander to the gay marriage movement. He didn't have to remove the terms "mother" and "father" from birth certificates.

He could have called the legislature into session, KEPT them in session until they passed a procedural vote that would have let gay marrage go to a referendum this fall, or last fall, or the fall before.

He could have been out screaming, he could have sued *before* he was running for President, he could have done a lot of things. But didn't.

And I still remember what he was saying back in '94 when he was running to the LEFT OF Teddy K...

> Unfortunately he was up against an extremely
> liberal legislature.

Bull.... Many of the Democrats in the General Court (Massachusetts doesn't *have* a "legislature") were to the political right of Romney. All of the pro-life and anti-gay marriage efforts were coming from the DEMOCRATS in the legislature.

And remember one other thing -- Romney LOST seats in the General Court during the '04 election. His attempt to win seats consisted of having the "Team Mitt" cadre run and they all lost because (a) their only qualifications were personal loyalty to him and (b) he has so destroyed what was left of the MassGOP that they simply couldn't get warm bodies to help with the campaigns.

Last November, they had to *hire* campaign volunteers and were paying college kids a couple hundred dollars a day to hand out literature.

> No one else has had to demonstrate veto
> power as he has.

Howie Carr had an interesting point about this yesterday -- something like 100% of Romney's vetos were overridden. His vetoing something was so irrelevant that after a while it wasn't even newsworthy.

> No one else has had to stand up to social
> liberals like he has.

I have seen DEMOCRAT governors do a better job of this than Mitt Romney. Remember that John Silbur, a Democrat, almost won in 1990 and is far more conservative than WelDucci-SwiftMitt. And if Ed King, a Democrat, could stand up to the social leftists, then why couldn't Romney?

> "So if the issue is his social conservatism,
> you are not doing your research, Kathy.

I don't need to do my research, I LIVED it. I was here, I saw it, and I would rather have Hillary Clinton for President than Mitt Romney.
And no, I do not want Shillary....

> Those of you who are buying into the MSM's
>label of Romney as a "flip-flopper" are either
> failing to do your research, or else you have
> other motives for disparaging perhaps the
> most qualified candidate we've had in years."

I have no other motives other than being a Loyal American who wants a BETTER America. And I call for full disclosure - how many people support Mitt who aren't getting money from him?

I was on the edge of Romney's 1994 Senate campaign - as a Republican and the concept of Anyone But Kennedy. And I remember what he said and where he was.

I was there when Jim Rappaport - the candidate of the party for Lt. Governor - was viciously attacked by Romney who demanded that we bend over and accept Muffie. The 2002 primary was so vicious that many Republicans became Independents just to stop the phone calls...

I was there when I was told that I had to help bend rules to Mitt's demands and told that I needed "to think about my political future" and said that I had enough of politics. At least politics with Mitt involved.

YOU CAN NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS IN MASSACHUSETTS WHO TRULY DETEST ROMNEY! He is the only candidate who would have member of his *own* party protesting him in the NH primary, I personally would be willing to go do this.

What "Team Mitt" did - and you can see it here from one of his supporters - is so polarize things that those who are not on his side are enemies. Well you go out and keep making enemies of your friends like this, and, well, it would be a truly interesting NH Primary should he still be in it.

RUN FRED RUN -- we want someone else....

Pirate
I noticed that your only evidence is your word. We are to trust you because? I at least pointed to some source material, which you conveniently ignored.


Gabby
"People are more uspet that I point out the racist foundations of a religion than they are about the racist foundations themselves."

You neglected to pointed out the racist foundation of the SOUTHERN Baptist Convention. Why was that?

Every religion has its issues
Mine has a history of hangign Quakers on Boston Common - because they were Quakers.

My take is that the Mormons are like Catholics and Jews -- the religious amongst them are generally nice people whose religion has some wierd aspects that I don't hold to.

Anti-Catholicism was quite real - google John Bapst if you doubt this. And the kneeling benches and the rule that their clergy can't get married, and between the stations of the cross and the ritualistic prayers, it isn't that hard to paint them as a cult too.

And for the Jews, having to have two sets of dishes when you have a 180 degree dishwasher that will kill anything, and modern corn-fed pork doesn't have worms anymore. And having to remove the light bulb from your refrigerator because it is "forbidden to strike a light on the Sabbath" and turning this light on by opening the door is forbidden by religious rules, well, it isn't hard to paint this as a cult either.

And my Catholic and Jewish friends think that I am wierd for refusing to purchase lottery tickets, even for good causes, as they are "games of chance." So I belong to a cult, too.

And we were so less tolerant a generation ago when Romney Sr ran against Nixon for President. So if it wasn't a problem then, why is Mormonism such an issue now? I don't have a problem with Mitt's religion, I have problems with OTHER THINGS....

It is called LEXIS/NEXIS....
> gunlock bill writes: I noticed that your
> only evidence is your word. We are to
> trust you because?

For the same reason I can say that it is raining today in Massachusetts. Anyone with an IQ above twelve can clearly see it, and for the rest, they can walk outdoors for a few minutes and then conclude that "like wow, man, I am all wet."

What Romney said in the '94 election, it is in the archives of the Globe and Herald and elsewhere and is on Lexis/Nexis. Don't believe the reporters, well his actual speeches are floating around YouTube and elswhere.

As to the G&GC, well you can look that up too.
John Silbur is a known person, he ran for Governor as a Democrat in 1990, this is public record. Birmingham was the head of the State Senate, he too a Democrat - and his speeches are on the internet and you can read them.

As to the sponsoring of conservative things by Democrats, well that too is public record and has been reported in the media and is out there.

And as to how nasty the 2002 Republican Primary was, talk to any registered MA Republican about why they got to leaving their telephones off the hook.

ETC...

And why is it that everyone who says something against Mitt Romney is attacked personally? It is raining outside, any damn fool can see that, and anyone who is familiar with Massachusetts (or spends a few minutes going through the stuff on the web) can see that what I say about Romney is true.

And I am too ethical to cite my own documents as proof of my statements...

Defending Condi
Gunlock said:

You neglected to pointed out the racist foundation of the SOUTHERN Baptist Convention. Why was that?

Apparently Gunlock missed the fact that Secretary of State Condi Rice spoke at the convention held in North Carolina last year. She spoke with power in her voice, and even Andrea Mitchell reported about the RAVE reviews from the people who heard her speak.

Funny how an earlier post wanted to demolish Condi for her intelligence. Hmmm, perhaps that person failed to know that Condi Rice graduated high school at age 15 and had a college diploma at age 19. Sounds like a genius to me, but then again, most liberals and Democrats can't stand the fact that an African-American woman like Condi Rice earned her degrees from Denver and also Notre Dame. She has earned her professorship to teach at Stanford and was elevated to Provost with a bit of affirmative action on the part of the board. But she performed well and kept her job.
Also, if I may add, why is it that liberals and Democrats can toss nasty words like "token" and "Aunt Jemimima" at Condi and no one tells them it is as disgusting as what Don Imus said?
Any response on that one?

Pirate
Is it permitted in the MASS state constitution for the executive branch to force the legislative branch to stay in session?

Pirate
A lot of people support Mitt who are not getting money from him. Even Ann Coulter likes him better than Bald Hillary and McCain. He did fight against gay marriage. If you need proof, just ask what homosexual groups think about him and whether they want him as president.

Slavery and Baptists
The history is alot more complex than is usually presented. The relationships between whites and blacks weren't always antagonistic. Whites often showed benevolence and even love for slaves although from our perspective we can see it was corrupted.

Baptists especially in the south around the time the USC was being written were abolitionists. Most of the slave owners were Anglicans/Episcopalians and many were Tories. As time went on, various Baptist revivals converted both slave and owner alike. Unfortunately, Baptists compromised.

Real hatred and racism among Baptists occurred in the wake of the Civil War and Reconstruction. The south began the war with a white total population of 5.6 million about 2.8 million men. Casualties were at least 250,000 dead(military) and 450,000 wounded. Fully 25% of the male population had paid a price... virtually every family. They came back only to see carpet baggers raid their homes and persecution at the hands of victorious invaders.

They were summararily denied justice which gave rise to the KKK... which was a Christian response to actual crimes to start with.

Bottom line- The racism directly involved in slavery pales in comparison to the bitter hatred that followed the war. There would probably be no racism problems if slavery had been allowed to die its natural death with the next 30 years due to technology.


Oh... forgot my main point
Baptist slaves and whites in the Old South shared faith and attended church together. The war separated them.

Condi is still worthless
I am not a democrat or a liberal. Bush is a traitor (North American Union)and Condi says nothing. She goes along with it evidently. So that makes her a traitor also or just plain stupid. Which is it, Cris?

Bush wants to give my Social Security fund money to illegal immigrants who have only worked in the USA for 18 months. Condi does not speak out against this. Is she a traitor or stupid? Which is it Cris?

The USA is being invaded by Mexico. Condi does not speak out against this. Is she a traitor or stupid? Which is it, Cris?

Another Kathy and Gabby Drive-by
Take it from me, Gabby and Kathy are both stuck in Groundhog day and will never leave. Just about every article that mentions Romney brings them (and others like them) out of the woodwork.

It *is* important that we continue posting the Web sites and reasonable information that rebuts their arguments, because I suspect there are many people joining in the conversation daily as the election heats up.

So, for the readers of Kathy's comment, please see:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/front_page/mitt_romney_chose_gay_marriage.php

Romney fought *against* gay marriage in Massachusetts.

For readers of Gabby's (and other anti-Mormon's) posts, see:

http://www.fairlds.org/

OK, for Pirate too...
Here are a few people in Massachusetts who disagree with you:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massleaders/massleaders.pdf

I don't suppose you are arrogant enough to say that everyone in Mass. has your opinion on things, are you?

Excellent analysis Gabby
Even though many of the current Mormon doctrines are very different compared to their early history (race and polygamy are just the 2 best know examples), very few faithful Mormons can acknowledge offensive doctrines (by today's standards) without undermining a critical foundation related to their belief that modern day prophets were directly inspired by God through revelation to restore the true gospel and bring forth additional scriptures. Mormons place great importance in developing and nurturing a testimony that Joseph Smith and today's Church President are true Prophets. It is constantly reiterated in their meetings.



I have no problem voting for a Mormon
What I care about is whether they have shown through their actions that they will uphold the Constitution. I frankly do not understand why so many people cancel out a candidate because he/she is not of the religion of their choosing. What does that have to do with their ability to uphold the Constitution? I'd vote for a Mormon all day long that has shown they will do that, versus a self-proclaimed born again Christian that has not.

At this point, I am unclear whether Mitt Romney has shown that.

Cris
Condi is brilliant. I wish she hadn't sold out, but she did. Dr. North is right.

Massachusetts had slaves, too...
> sjt18 writes: Baptists especially in the south around the time the USC was being written were abolitionists.

Remember that the Baptists had split from the Puritans (now Congregationalists) over religious theology and the Baptists essentially wanted to be more strict in their theology. Remember too that the Puritans (pre-Baptists) were in New England while the south was largely Anglican, although Jefferson wrote about "churches fallen open" and how folks no longer were religious (before the great awakening).

So if what you are saying is true, that is very interesting.


>>Most of the slave owners were Anglicans/Episcopalians and many were Tories.

In the north, the property of the Tories was confiscated, and this included thier slaves - who were given the "option" to fight for the Patriot cause to earn their freedom. As only the Tories ownes slaves (remember that the Revolution started as an economic revolt) that was the end of slavery in the north.

VERY interesting that the same religious link existed 15 years later (1773/1787) in the South.


Massachusetts has circa 1600 government
> collin writes: Is it permitted in the MASS state constitution for the executive branch to force the legislative branch to stay in session?

Remember that Massachusetts is a Commonwealth, not a state, and that the Governor has a lot of powers that date back to the days of the Royal Governors and King George. Some of which come from authorities other than the Constitution.

As I understand it, the Governor has the authority to summons the legislature. If they adjurn (which is what they did) he has the authority to call them again. And again and again and again.

Now could he have them arrested and dragged in via the staties - I would have to do some research on that question. But he COULD HAVE been out there threatening to, he could have been making a fuss.

He could have said that he simply would not issue a gay marriage and if Margaret Marshall wished to throw him in jail for his conscience, so be it. If he truly stood for something, he could have done something. Anything...

Oooops....
It is the Great and General Court, not the legislature. And there are some differences between a court and a legislature, too...

Gabby, Sam

Gabby,
If Mormon theology could be represented by a 1,000 pages.............I'd guess that you read pages 7, 15, 459-463 and maybe page 765!!

Make no mistake, your viewpoint as stated in your townhall postings, is extremely Bigoted!

Sam,
Your postings have no relevance, only hypotheticals and future theories (that are completely baseless) of what Mitt would do if he were President! Give us one posting that is based on something, anything that has substance.

Analysis-Take Heart Romney Folks
I just ran some sophisticated analysis (beyond cross tabs) on a national data set of registered republicans and found some interesting findings.

1. Romneys biggest problem is not his religion, it is the flip flopper perceptions. He has started to counter those and needs to pursue that very aggressively.

2. Romney's positives: clear plan to fix America's problems, caring about people, likeable, family values, should more than offset his negatives as the campaign progresses.

3. Romney has very minimal problems with born agains. I can NOT over emphasis how little this is a problem.

3. Supporters for Rudy and McCain appear to be more fluid that I originally thought. They can be moved if given the right approach.

Take heart Romney folks the ride is just beginning. It is looking better than I thought.

I ran a cluster analysis with the support/not support questions for the big 5 candidates. Romney did very well.

Liberty
Foriegn policy is very complex right now. I had reservations about going into Iraq (just like Scowcroft) but now that we are in it, we have to find a way to prevent another terrorist state and more attacks.

The time that we could isolate ourselves from the rest of the globe as we did for decades is gone forever. The technology of a global village eliminates that option.

I do not think I will see a lasting peace in my lifetime. No amount of diplomacy will resolve the conflicts between the West and the values of the extremists (Shia or Sunni).

I had friends in grad school and also friends now who are muslim. I have a copy of the Koran and have read it occasionally. I have some understanding of the issues from thier perspective.

Yes I am aware that there is a big difference between the typical muslim in the US and the terrorists. However, in many parts of the muslim world the terrorists have substantial support.

We really could not negotiate effectively with Hilter in the 30s and 40s. We will not be able to negotiate a solution with the terrorists. We have nothing to give them that they want, except to get out of the middle east long enough for them to gather strength, kill off all of the jews and then attack us with real strength.

Thier world view and our way of life fundamentally can not be reconciled.


President Mitt Romney...SOUNDS...GOOD !
OK, There was one other man who inspired me. He was known as JFK. I was aboard ship (secret)on 22Nov63 and on that day I was on my way to morning chow when I met a passenger coming toward me. He said, "Did you hear? The President has been assasinated and am I glad". My immediate response was making him part of the bulk-head and melting on the deck as I continued toward the mess hall. I am inspired by Mitt Romney. Everything he says is right on with me. I am especially happy to listen to someone speak with more than three words in a sentance. OK, let's be friends!...this is a Blog!;
I Just signed-on with AC (Associated Content). I live in west Mobile, AL and I will be writing my comments of, about, and for (OAF) politics. If you read any of the Blogs on the Internet...you just might find:LevisAct...That's me. Check it out? My handle is: LevisAct...I'm into political opinions and current events. You must be over eighteen (18) years of age to read my blogs. told'ye so.

Semper Fi,

Levi

Sam
The real truth about the Massresistance stance can be found at:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massresistance/therealtruth.pdf

Their argument against Romney doesn't hold water.

Man, I hope Fred participates
I wasn't aware he was an actual candidate.

All of these
broad generalizations and history of the mormon religion mean nothing. What we must do is look at the man and how he has lived his life. From what I have read he is an honorable person who has a long time faithful marriage, well brought up children, no moral deviations, no record of discriminatin against any group, a strong record as a successful and committed capitalist. And then we can go from there as we learn more about his positons. I like his latest ad that talks about unelected judges taking decisions from "the people" and imposing their own morals and values.

Gabby
I heard harry ried is a Mormon, yes or no?

Comments here
Hey Sam.

I don't know where you get the idea that the Republicans won't do anything about the borders. Some of them in Washington are trying to do something but are out-gunned by Bush, RINOS, and the Democrats and their DA** Amnesty which is the real problem and the supposedly NEW Comprehensive Amnesty bill being pushed by Kennedy and company whom ever they all are which is just a makeover of the last failed Amnesty Bill.

I wish to take you back in history since so many here seem to want to dig into Mormon and others past. I suppose you would like your past being spit in your faces when you say something which contridicts your past ideas. OOOOOO sorry you're only allowed to do that to politicians. You can do what ever you want regardless of the outcome. Face it, there are things and events that happen in all our lives that cause a change in our way of thinking and what we support


For one thing about the Mormon past....they are are the moss persecuted Religion in the history of this world. Supposed Christians of those early days shot and killed any Mormon (including chldren)they could get in their musket sights, burned their homes and crops and even kept shooting them in the back while they fled. Now, let's get to Romney, He got Massachuttetts out of the "RED"..Get this after he took office he discovered that MASS ad 125 courthouses Anyone smell PORK HERE FROM THE DUKAKIS_KERRY REIGN and of coarse the Kennedy influence, among others. (GEE-it was from Logan Airport, Boston, Mass. that those two planes were hijacked and took down the twin towers ...why...because security information was not shared to prevent that tragedy. Before Romney was elected people were leaving the state as business closed due to the Democrat tax hikes. Romney saved the scandel ridden Olympics which ended up a secuss in the BLACK. He assisted in the rescue, at his expense, of a daughter of a friend whom might dies from the use of a dangerous drug withdrawel. He started and managed successful companies and saved others from failing. HIS HEALTH CARE PLAN WORKS AND THE TAXPAYERS ARE THE ONE'S PAYING THE TAB...THE PEOPLE ARE AND IS CURRENTLY BEING LOOKED INTO BY SEVERAL OTHER STATES...WHY HASN"T THE GOVERNMENT He is a loyal, chaste family man and FAITHFUL husband, and grandfather...and as Governor was so organixed that he managed to juggle his time between being bishop of his church and as Governor and GOT THINGS DONE AS THEY NEEDED TO BE. HE HAS PROVEN TO BE A LEADER. Any skeletons one might to dig for in his closet are layered with cobwebs of the past and so are yours. WE'RE ELECTING A PRESIDENT-NOT A PREACHER! WE NEED A PRESIDENT WHO CAN THINK FOR HIMSELF AND GET THINGS DONE AS HE DID AS GOVERNOR OF MASS.

Now you Republican critics need to know this in case you have conviently forgotten. The Democrats were the big reason of the Civil War because they wanted to expend BLACK SLAVERY further west...The Republican Party was born as a result of that senseless CIVIL war. You all need to read George Washington's Farewell Address that was published in a Philadelphia paper prior to the end of his second term as President. (KEY SEARCH WORDS-GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FAREWELL ADDRESS -LONG VERSION) What is going on and has been too long he foretold would happen ....(hang on to your collective critic hats on this)He warned over 220 years ago that the people had a NEW DUTY and that was to keep their eyes on the parties. As was evident in his time they were already acting up they needed to be watched and kept under control BY THE PEOPLE...well folks since that time until these latter days THE PEOPLE JUST FOUGHT AND VOTED ALONG PARTY LINES (PARTY MEMBERS INCLUDED)and now we have this mess and Nancy Pelosy, Killer Kennedy, MURTHA, etc. far too long.

This past election was one of vengeance..knowing full well what the results would be you voters kicked out the wrong Republicans and Democrats and re-elected the worst bunch right back into office. Well pat youself on the back and see your tax cuts dissappear, being told as parents you have no say-so as to what you young children are taught once they are behind the wall of the very schools you paid for with your taxes- it has already happened anf activist judges appointed by Bill Clinton issued the orders. When you get hit with a 9.1 trillion tax increase which equates to about an increase in taxes (courtesy of the Democrats)for the low to middle income of from $2000 to $3000 a year. There will be open borders because there will be a borderless North North America and maybe anyone of you will fall victiom of this..actually most of us are already victime of illegal immigration supported and being pushed on us by Bush and the Democrat Party

You malcontents who sat out the last election need to keep you mouths shut...you chose not to vote ...you have no say a word about any party or present candidates. Most of you people likely haven't done as little as address your grievances (complained)to Congress or ever write or call your state Senators or District Rep.in Washington. YOU are the reason why we have this mess and I am as guilty as you until 2004 when I finally woke up as to what was really goiong on while the rest of you just were busy with bisiness as usual and keeping up with the Joneses our country and rights were being taken from us. To even think I once was a Democrat makes me sick. I am a Patriot and will die in the effort to get our country back in the hands of the people where our Members in Congress comply to the majority. "While we slept our Country was stolen" E PLURIBUS UNIM

My previous post
Sorry folks for not having done a bad job of proof-reading ...2 many typos...was in a hurry ...oh well I hope you can get through them

diehardpatriot
You are so right!!! But what scares me is so many people in this country, pay no attention to what is going on in our government. They don't have the time, or the energy or what ever, to watch the news, and see what's happening to us.

BG
Our current foreign policy of interventionism is what is making foreign policy complex right now. The prime reason is because the conduct of our policy is creating new enemies, faster than we can take them out.

I do NOT believe in isolationism. There is a huge difference between interventionism (ie. carrying out UN dictates, using our military as the world's policemen and nation-building) and non-interventionism (trading with all, entangling alliances with none except under brief emergency circumstances, and being well-wishers to all). Nothing isolationist about the latter. If and only if we are attacked, or someone poses an imminent threat, should we attack them. Conservatives never used to believe in preemptive wars --- that was something the liberals believed in.

BG, I am no peacenik, but neither am I a war monger. I was all for going after those that attacked us and still am. However, for some reason, we have allowed all our anger and desire for justice from 9-11 to be misdirected to countries that had nothing to do with it. It's ridiculous. I'll tell you one thing, when I read plans from the neocons currently running our foreign policy, that they wrote before 9-11 (when they were still in think tanks) saying they wanted to do exactly what we are doing, I sit up and take note. We have been sold a bill of goods and continue to buy it hook, line and sinker. We aren't avenging 9-11 by our current actions. We are however, creating a coalition amongst one hell of a lot of islamics who previously did not care for one another. We have created a common enemy for them... US, and we are falling right into the laps of the radical islamics biggest dream. All they have to do now is to point at our actions, to convince the masses who did not previously agree with them, that the radicals are right.

In addition to the forementioned, we are also helping the one-worlders make their case why world government is needed. This may very well have been the intention all along.

Gab, Gab and more "Gab"...........!
For a person such as this Gabby is, with regards to facts and lack of knowledge, he'd certainly flunk school if he were put to the test.
I am NOT predjudice. LDS people are not, and taught never to be so. The Bible "CLEARLY" speaks of people being cursed for not obeying God's commands. Sadly, racism/skin color and poligamy-ALL existed throughout "Both" the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament. Numerous of the Prophets and people, thousands of years ago, who were deemed to be good in Gods eyes and practiced poligamy. Also they taught (AT THAT TIME-FRAME), to avoid marrying Cainanites/blacks & other certain ethnic people,
etc., but that changed. God, for the time, changed his dealings. He flooded the earth with Noah, and then swore he'd never do so again. Different strokes for different folks, and different times. I'm the same person yesterday today & tommorow, but I can change my mind. I can change the way I deal with one person or people, compared to others, in order to accomplish Good among both types of people.

Simply worded; this Gabby person has yet to ever truly read his bible. He's "tweeked", misinformed, and very bigoted and obviously---sorry, but "not too intelligent"...

As for my thoughts about the article, the truly main purpose for this commentary we write in:

I believe Governor Romney will very very likely be our next President when all the dust settles. Any bets???

Gabby gabs on
"And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." (Gen 4:15).

Now, what exactly does the curse refer to? Well that depends on your particular religion. For Jews its one thing, for Catholics another, and for Protestants another still. But this excerpt is informative:

"Early Syriac Christianity interpreted the mark as a permanent change in skin colour, i.e. that Cain was turned black. This re-emerged amongst Protestant groups, and the curse was often used by them in some attempts to justify racism of one form or another, such as the slave trade, banning interracial marriage, and apartheid. These views have since been disowned by most Protestant groups."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain#Mark_of_Cain

Whoa, wait a minute, does that mean that Protestant's derived racist views from their religious texts? My, my, look how conveniently they have changed their views. But honestly, who today could accept a religion, or the bible for that matter, when its foundation is based on racist beliefs? Gabby, are you perhaps a closet racist? Sounds like you have some explaining to do.

Man the truth can really be a pain in the butt sometimes, can't it?

Bravo Bravado
Let me make it easy for Gabby......If Mormon theology could be represented in 10 pages, then I would bet the farm that Gabby has only read the opening sentence, 1 word on page 5 and maybe 3 words on page 7.

The result is the same, i.e. Gabby knows not what she/he speaks of and heaven knows she/he speaks alootttt!!

I have been out doing yard work and watching soccer & baseball games with my boys all day long and just now sat down to read thru the postings since last night and I have to say that Bravado has nicely stated what I was thinking when I read Gabby's epistle.

How do you respond to this? You are obviously not very well read on subject you are won't to spout off about.
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