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Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama's Fear-Mongering
by Jonah Goldberg
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Imagine a child falls down a well. Now imagine I offer to lend the parents my ladder to save her, but only if they promise to paint my house. Would you applaud me for not letting a crisis go to waste? Or would you think I'm a jerk, for want of a harsher word not printable in this space?

I ask because I'm trying to come to terms with Rule No. 1 of the Obama administration.

"Rule 1: Never allow a crisis to go to waste," White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel told the New York Times right after the election. "They are opportunities to do big things." Over the weekend, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton told an audience at the European Parliament, "Never waste a good crisis." Then President Obama explained in his Saturday radio and Internet address that there is "great opportunity in the midst of" the "great crisis" befalling America.

Numerous commentators, including me, have pointed to this never-waste-a-crisis mantra as ideological evidence that Obama's budget priorities are a great bait-and-switch. He says he wants to fix the financial crisis, but he's focusing on selling his long-standing liberal agenda on health care, energy and education as the way to do it, even though his proposals have absolutely nothing to do with addressing the housing and toxic-debt problems that are the direct causes of our predicament. Indeed, some -- particularly on Wall Street -- would argue that his policies are making the crisis worse.

But those policies aren't the real scandal, even though they're bad enough. The real scandal is that this administration thinks crises are opportunities for governmental power-grabs. (It seems writer Randolph Bourne was wrong. It is not war, but crisis, that is the health of the state.)

Michael Kinsley famously said that a gaffe in Washington is when a politician accidentally tells the truth. As they say, it's funny because it's true.

But the White House tactic isn't funny at all. It's scary. Its amorality is outweighed only by the grotesque and astoundingly naked cynicism of it all.

Recall that not long ago, the first item on the bill of indictment against the Bush administration was that it was "exploiting" 9/11 to enact its agenda. Al Gore shrieked that President Bush "played on our fears" to get his way. In response to nearly every Bush initiative, from the Patriot Act to the toppling of Saddam Hussein, critics would caterwaul that Bush was taking advantage of the country's fear of terrorism.

The Bush administration always denied this, and rightly so. If the president admitted that he was using a national calamity for narrow partisan or ideological advantage, it would be outrageous. Indeed, every time Karl Rove or some other administration official said anything that could be even remotely interpreted as using the war or 9/11 for partisan or ideological gain, the editorial pages and Democratic news-release factories churned into overdrive with righteous indignation.

Well, now we have the president, along with his chief aides, admitting -- boasting! -- that they want to exploit a national emergency to further their pre-existing agenda, and there's no scandal. No one even calls it a gaffe. No, they call it leadership.

It's not leadership. It's fear-mongering.

Franklin Roosevelt said that all we have to fear is fear itself. Now, Barack Obama tacitly admits that all he has to fear is the loss of fear itself.

In other realms of life, exploiting a crisis for your own purposes is an outrage. If a business uses a hurricane warning to price-gouge on vital supplies, it is a crime. When a liberal administration does it, it's taking advantage of a historic opportunity.

Obama's defenders respond to this argument by stating that the president's motives are decent, noble and pure. He wants to help the uninsured and the poorly educated. He wants to make good on his vow to halt those rising oceans.

But this is just a rationalization. Every president thinks his agenda is what's best for the country; every politician believes his motives are noble. The point is that scaring people about X in order to achieve Y is fundamentally undemocratic.

This was transparently obvious to Bush's harshest critics, who alleged that 9/11 was merely a convenient crisis for devious neocons who wanted to topple Hussein all along. But it's now clear that many of these critics simply objected to the agenda, not the alleged tactics. Now that it's their turn, they see nothing wrong with doing what they so recently condemned.

They even admit it, over and over again.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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2010 Can't Come Soon Enough For Me
I can hardly wait for November 2010. Americans will have the opportunity to ROAR.

Fear Mongering
Jonah:

And I suppose you think all the fear-mongering Attny Gen. Ashcroft was doing with his stupid color codes was perfectly OK.

And what about Cheney and Condi Rice and their fear-mongering about a "mushroom cloud." I guess that was OK too.

The Bush administration spent eight years feeding the American public nothing but fear-mongering.

Get real, Jonah.

What's Good About A Crisis?

Is the catastophe of cancer a good thing?

Whould you never waste the crisis of bankruptcy?

Should I have charged $20/gal for water following Hurricane Katrina? Crisis? Check. Opportunity? Check. Jerk? Check.

What a scam! Bankrupt the Country because a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. Unbelievable.

Brickhouse: I'm with you.

Get Real Bill
How exactly was the Bush Admin fear-mongering? Do you even understand what that means?

One thing is clear!
Irrespective of one's political affiliation, even if one chooses to "fault" the Bush administration with being guilty of "fear mongering" (whether valid or not!), one cannot escape the fact that Obama and his administration is VERY guilty of exercising that "same" methodolgy!

I do not believe that was the modus operandi of the Bush administration. Intentionally attempting to create fear in the populace, for the sake of furthering whatever agenda it might have possessed was not a reality. As a matter of fact we were, and ARE, dealing with terrorists who want to detroy us and our way of life! Even though Obama does not want to refer to them as "terrorists"! That's interesting in and of itself!
Examine Obama's track record to this point...The economy was such a huge crisis, and unless we did something about it immediately, catastrophe would immediately befall us! It was so urgent that once the "stimulus" bill was passed, Obama went on a what, three day vacation before he signed it?! Now that's using "fear" my friends! Anyone who cannot perceive the difference between the two, either is blind to the facts or cannot admit to them!

There is a vast difference between what terrorists might do to us, and what the economy is going to "do" to us! If we're dead, then the economy doesn't make too much difference, does it?!

If we want to have rational, intelligent discussion about these matters, we must attempt to be objective! We have to remove our "political" clothing and at the minimum, attempt to get into "neutral" clothing to proceed. To proceed otherwise is unfruitful, and all that will be accomplished, will be "name calling", which I prefer to leave to First Graders!

Jonah

Don't you know that the rules don't apply to liberals? While we have to play by the rules, liberals can get away with tax evasion (a good portion of the Obama staff, Chucky Rangle), rape (Bill Clinton), vehicular homicide (Ted Kennedy), lying (HR Clinton), stealing (Sandy Berger), public lewdness (Chris Dodd/Ted Kennedy) and hundreds of other incidents for which liberals paid no penalty but villified others for the same behavior.

Liberals are collossal hypocrites.

FEAR--CAUSE AND EFFECT
The 9/11 attack on our Nation came from the Outside, immediately causing the American people Fear. The Effect of this 'crisis' WAS our governments response to wage War on Terrorism to protect our Country.
The Economic attack on our Nation came from the Inside, slowly causing the American people Fear. The Effect of this 'crisis' IS the liberal left governments 'opportunity' to wage War on Capitalism which will destroy NOT protect, the Foundation of our Country.
Both attacks (9/11 and Economic) were premeditated, one being an 'outside job' the other an 'inside job'. Both attacks were puposefully carried out by 'enemies' of our Country and whereas, the 'outside job' of the 9/11 attack did not successfully bring our Nation down, the 'inside job' of the liberal left government WILL.

Lightning II

Lightning II observes, "If we want to have rational, intelligent discussion about these matters, we must attempt to be objective!"

Good luck on that score. The great majority of Americans wear blinders. Democrats wear a blinder on the left eye and Republicans on the right, thereby rendering themselves oblivious to the evil their own side engages in.

Between the tunnel vision and compartmented logic, it's not likely that Americans are going to come together and discover who the real enemy is - the federal government - before it's too late.

Great Article Jonah
Obama is using the 'Politics of Fear' to turn America into a Socialist Nation - something he has trained for and sought his entire life.

All despots use the same formula, to acquire power.

(1) cite a horrifying scenario;
(2) say that you are the solution and
(3) if people don't acknowledge that the worst will happen and
(4) therefore give me money and power, which is the same thing.

Barack 'Prince of Fear' Obama, bringing the destruction of Socialism to America.

Well, time to join them...
I recall literally years of insane mongering kookball democrats yelling that Bush "did 911" in order to go to war an takeover the USA. OK
Obama and his dems HAVE CAUSED THE FINANCIAL CRISIS WITH FANNIE MAE AND FREDDIE MAC AND THEIR DEMANDS FOR RETURNS FOR EVERY LOSER AND FREE LOANS AND ENDLESS CREDIT.
Now they have used their destruction of our economy to TAKEOVER EVERYTHING.
We are now all LOW WAGE SLAVES to the demtard NEW WORLD ORDER OF ABSOLUTE AND CONTINUOUS DEBT AND HIGHER TAXES UPON OUR CHILDREN FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.
THE EVIL DEMORATS HAVE DESTROYED THE CONSTITUION AND TAKEN AWAY OUR RIGHTS TO EARN A LIVING WAGE !
Please, get rid of these skumbags handing trillions to their rich buddies and lawyer friends and politcal activist crews!
THEY ARE NOT WE THE PEOPLE - AND THEY HAVE STOLEN OUR PRESENT AND FUTURE !
Get them out of there NOW !

Bill
Certainly the Bush administration used fear of more attacks. They used that fear to institute policies to protect us from more attacks. Those policies may have been incorrect in some ways and reasonable people can disagree with how effective they were but the fact is Bush left office without any more attacks occuring on American soil.

Obama's response to the damage done by government interference in the free market has been to use fear as a tool to force more interference in the free market. That is like Bush using the 9/11 attacks as a reason to let in more murdering Islamists. Certainly fear is the tool both have used. Other than that not many similarities.

Barack 'Prince of Fear' Obama

Barack Obama has 'Nothing' to give Americans but 'Fear Itself'.

Barack Obama's 'Stimulus Bill' was passed by the 'Politics of Fear' - Obama used the word 'Crisis' 25 times in a recent speech.

'Scaremongering' is the core doctrine of Liberals and Barack Obama.

PM BROWN & OBAMA'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX

Why did Barack Obama rudely refuse to appear with Gordon Brown at a joint press conference when the British PM was in Washington? Answer: Because Obama's inferiority complex got the better of him that day. Because our big, bold courageous President feared the contrast with Brown. Because Brown's stronger intellect and larger and more vigorous personality would have overshadowed our mental and moral pip-squeak-in-chief. By not appearing with Brown Obama avoided a humiliating experience that would have made him look like the pint sized, shallow, small minded man that he is.

Many pundits, including myself, have likened Obama to the Great Appeaser, Neville Chamberlain. While the analogy is basically sound-Obama is an apologizing, fainthearted, arse kissing appeaser-it does him too much credit. While Chamberlain was tragically short on judgement when dealing with Hitler-mistaking him, as many did, for a conventional statesman and missing his revolutionary intent-he was no sheepish, frightened, self-conscious Mickey Mouse. We're a nation at war with a weakling for a President, and history tells us that this is a recipe for disaster.





crisis gouging
Price gouging for money - stealing from Americans.

Crisis gouging for power - stealing from America.

Americans Need to Fear Barack Obama

America has nothing to fear but Barack Obama and his American Hating Liberal followers.

Barack Obama and his 'Hate America' Liberal followers, are using 'Fear' to accomplish what they have lived and trained for their entire lives - The Destruction of the American economy - so they can replace it with Socialism.

The Barack Obama 'Stimulus Plan' is roughly equal to the amount of all U.S. currency in circulation, on the day it was signed into law.

NOTE TO LIBERALS: That is the equivalent of every $1, $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 American bill 'IN THE WORLD', would have to be confiscated to pay for the Obama 'Flim Flam'.


"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.” Vladimir Lenin

The Obama doctrine, is to Bankrupt America and believes that will be the 'Success' of the Barack Obama administration.

ARE YOU READY TO SAVE AMERICA ?
YOU ARE NOT ALONE......groups are forming all over the US in every city.

1. View this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6732659166933078950

2. Then get this book (Amazon ?) and read "THE 5000 YEAR LEAP" ...(it is in short supply) and you will begin to understand what we are about to lose.

3. Then join one of Glenn Beck's "WE SURROUND THEM" groups ( forming up all over the country) and help us save our Republic before it is too late.

Follow these links to understand how this works............ you can start a group in your area or town to view the unveiling of Glenn's program this Friday or record it (Tivo- DVR) and watch it later. This may be our last chance to save America from Socialism and save our Republic.....PLEASE GET INVOLVED BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/21018 /

http://wesurroundthemmap.com/

http://www.meetup.com/We-Surround-Them-in-Fort-Worth/



4. And then for a little light reading......Ayn Rand's "ATLAS SHRUGGED" and learn who John Galt is (you will be hearing more about him).

All this should bring you up to speed and you can begin to help us save our country.

A huge gamble for both sides
See the massive spending voted for by Democrats and nayed by the Republicans as a huge gamble by both sides. If the economy recovers by 2010 the Democrats think they can shut Republicans out forever. However, the Democrats have forgotten that this is a two sided blade. If the economy does not recover by 2010, the Democrats will own it, and the party will be in the wilderness a long time.

Big difference Jonah
Yes, the Obama administration is using the crisis to do some big things that, without this sense of urgency, wouldn't get done. And, yes, they admit it, openly and forthrightly.

Why?

Because there is nothing wrong with it!

The things they are trying to do are related to why we are in such a crisis in the first place. Our health care system is causing a new bankruptcy every 60 seconds (according to factcheck.org). So, yes, fixing the healthcare system is part of the financial crisis––a big part.

Energy is a also a huge problem. Imagine what would happen to the economy if we find ourselves at $4/gallon gas again. We need to move toward renewable energy. It will save us money in the long run and building a new energy infrastructure will create jobs in the short run.

And does anyone really believe we should be doing less for education?

And of course Bush denied that they were exploiting 9/11. He wanted people to believe that Iraq really did have something to do with Islamic terrorism, which was a total lie.

Admitting that they were exploiting the crisis in order to build support for invading Iraq, would have been to admit that they were making stuff up!

Jonah: Obama's team is openly saying that they are exploiting a crisis to get big things done because they have nothing to feel ashamed of. They are proud of what they are doing.

Bush's team lied about exploiting a crisis because they were ashamed to admit it.

How stupid does Jonah Goldberg think his readers are?

2010 Voting against ACORN
All conservatives had better remember that in the next election we will have a bigger and more corrupt ACORN to deal with. They will be getting a large chunk of money from the stimulus and they will be out in force. Republicans had better think now how they are going to combat these crooks.

Retired Geek
You were all for borrowing a trillion dollars to destroy and rebuild Iraq. But when it comes to borrowing the same amount to build up our own economy you throw a hissy fit.

Is that really where your priorities lay?

Really?

Retired Geek is what happens to people who listen to too much talk radio. They become hysterical about all the wrong things.

Rush and Hannity are talking down this economy and our President every day. They are invested in failure. They would prefer that their extreme ideology (i.e., markets regulate themselves, government is always bad) survive, rather than see our president succeed at turning the economy around. That is sick, and deeply unpatriotic.


Phylo
Are you for real. Obama is on a spending spree with money we do not have. The government will make healthcare a disaster just like they make everything else. We already pump tons of money into education that is wasted and if you think that one union teacher will be gone you are really crazy. Perhaps if you are among the first that is denied healthcare when you have a problem that some government lackey decided is too expensive to take care of you will see the light. But just maybe you are one of the slackers that is dependent on the government already and you are just hoping for more free stuff. Our real crisis in this country has not hit yet. We will be losing a lot more jobs as companies move out of the country rather than pay these ridiculous taxes. People will be living hand to mouth. Forget about saving GM. We won't have enough money left after we are taxed to death to think about buying a new car. Gee I have no income but maybe I'll buy a new house, a car, take a vacation to Europe and buy some designer shoes. That sounds as sensible as what Obama is doing. Spending knowing there is no money to pay. Lets hope Hillary can really suck up to China so they continue to buy our debt.

The Left's Goal
The left put the flag at the goal line years ago. For years they plodded along not seeing that goal,but knew what direction it was in. so they slogged on.

Many snags slowed them down. Some on the right tackled them and they lost ground. Still they kept going. Some supposed to be 'on the right',even helped them gain ground. Traitors to their cause.

Thanks to spineless Republicans and apathetic folks on the right,the left can see the uprights ! They will mow down any and everything in their way! Victory will be theirs ! America lies in their wake.

The Obamination game plan
From the 60's!

The authors (Cloward and Piven) noted that the number of Americans subsisting on welfare -- about 8 million, at the time -- probably represented less than half the number who were technically eligible for full benefits. They proposed a "massive drive to recruit the poor onto the welfare rolls." Cloward and Piven calculated that persuading even a fraction of potential welfare recipients to demand their entitlements would bankrupt the system. The result, they predicted, would be "a profound financial and political crisis" that would unleash "powerful forces … for major economic reform at the national level."

Their article called for "cadres of aggressive organizers" to use "demonstrations to create a climate of militancy." Intimidated by threats of black violence, politicians would appeal to the federal government for help. Carefully orchestrated media campaigns, carried out by friendly, leftwing journalists, would float the idea of "a federal program of income redistribution," in the form of a guaranteed living income for all -- working and non-working people alike. Local officials would clutch at this idea like drowning men to a lifeline. They would apply pressure on Washington to implement it. With every major city erupting into chaos, Washington would have to act.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6 967

Re: P
Phylo: You are an idiot. I am, however, surprised that you are on this site since most liberals don't seem to know how to read and don't care about keeping informed. At least you know how to read.

Diane
Calm down. You're acting hysterical.

First of all, if you make less than $250,000 a year, you're not going to pay any more in taxes. In fact, you'll probably pay less in taxes.

Second, even if you do make more than $250,000 a year your taxes will be at about the same rate they were under Reagan. Did a lot of businesses leave the country under Reagan because they were over-taxed?

Third, George Bush borrowed 5 trillion dollars. Were you this upset with George Bush?

My guess is that you listen to a lot of right wing radio. Their goal is to get you freaked out and angry. They have an agenda. And their agenda has led us to the current mess.

Try getting some of your news from more mainstream, more reliable sources. Read some liberal columnists. Get both sides of the argument. Have an open mind.

That's why I come here, and why I listen to right wing radio. I want to hear their arguments. If they some something that makes sense, I will listen. Unfortunately, I haven't been hearing a lot of sense from conservatives these days. They are stuck in an ideology that simply doesn't make sense under the current circumstances.

They argue, for example, for a cut in the capital gains rate. The thinking is that, if we cut the capital gains rate, investors will start new companies and hire workers.

But back in the eighties and nineties the capital gains rate was higher than it is now, and there was no shortage of people who were willing to invest in new ventures.

The problem is not that capital gains rate. The problem is that there is a lack of demand. We need to create jobs. Once the job market rebounds, rich people will invest their money in the economy again.

So conservatives are simply wrong this time.

If you want to make a reasoned argument to the contrary, I'm open to hearing it.

Phylo you are so misguided.....
“Our health care system is causing a new bankruptcy every 60 seconds (according to factcheck.org)."
Factcheck has already been debunked. The fact that “FACTCHECK.org” is a liberal organization and is connected to this administration means nothing, correct?

“Energy is a also a huge problem. Imagine ... $4/gallon gas again. We need to move toward renewable energy. “
We have billions of barrels of oil off the coast of the US. If we were to tap into this surplus while researching new energy sources it would offset any rise in the global markets. The animal extremists are against it. Yet Cuba is drilling less than 80 miles from our coast now.

“And does anyone really believe we should be doing less for education?”
Your IDIOT in CHIEF is about to sign a bill that does away with the school voucher program. Maybe you missed the news the last few days but there are 2 less fortunate kids that happen to attend the same school that NOBAMA’S own daughter’s attend that are now being forced to return to DC’s public schools. This moron just sold his sole as far as education is concerned. He has just shown that he is an elitist and does not care about the poor. They are not good enough to attend school with his spawn. And his spawn are too good to attend public schools.

“And of course Bush denied that they were exploiting 9/11. He wanted people to believe that Iraq really did have something to do with Islamic terrorism, which was a total lie.”
Gee that is why we have arrested and killed Islamic extremists there. Saddam Hussein who was a Muslim and beheaded people who disagreed with him, who also killed 200 thousand people in the name of religious cleansing. Who terrorized the entire region?

“How stupid does Jonah Goldberg think his readers are?”
Well if he is writing to you and your kind, he must believe that you're quite stupid and in need of some fundamental beliefs.

Vicki
Name calling? Is that what suffices for argument in your mind.

And I think that, judging by the number of comments the columns at townhall get, it's the conservatives that seem to be less than literate. At Huffington Post, each story gets hundreds of responses, the main posts get thousands of responses. It's a much more dynamic and energetic exchange of ideas.

Instead of name-calling, try formulating an actual argument. It's good for your critical thinking skills.

Phylo
Why don't you check out a web site such as Common Dreams? they would love you there.

You want government health care? Have you ever seen government housing? Would you want to live there? Even the people who do live there don't want to. What makes you think the feds could do better with health care than housing?

Yes, private enterprise needs to continue research & development of new energy sources. Since no breakthroughs are imminent, we also need to drill here, drill now & pay less to get us through, until the next great thing in energy comes along. There is plenty of incentive to discover whatever will replace petrol. The person who does that will make Bill Gates seem middle class.

Education should be handled at the local level. The highest level of government that should be involved is the state. Dept. of Education was a Jimmy Carter idea. Enough said. Let us revive the 10th amendment!

OKAY PHYLO YOU’RE A MORON!!!
“First of all, if you make less than $250,000 a year, you're not going to pay any more in taxes. In fact, you'll probably pay less in taxes.”
So the new tax on smokers to pay for child health care is not really a tax. I don’t smoke but the fact that the government now needs 63 million new smokers to pay for this program tells me that my taxes are going up somewhere because more people quit smoking every day than start. The new “CAP & TRADE” that is going to be passed means higher taxes to the energy companies. They in turn will pass them to their customers or do you believe that they are going to eat those costs. This directly translates to a higher cost to me that will no doubt be a new line on my electric bill that states something like “CAP & TRADE TAX. Maybe you have never owned or ran a business. When the fuel prices went up, freight companies added a line that said “FUEL SURCHARGE TAX” that was the cost of their fuel tax given directly to me the customer.
Now the MORON in CHIEF wants to get “CARD CHECK” through. I have the unique experience of having worked with in a union and as a manager in a union shop. Unions are not good for our country. At one point in history they did serve a noble cause but now they are corrupt and will bankrupt businesses if they are able if their demands are not met. The fact that this bill also includes a clause that the GOVERNMENT will step in if the UNIONS demands are not met in 120 days means that the government wants more control in business. This also means higher prices for everyone. Again the IDIOT in CHARGE is saying he could care less for those less fortunate. You know those that need to shop at WALMART to survive.

Tony
Who, exactly, debunked the factcheck.org figures?

And if factcheck.org is so connected with the Obama administration, why are they so critical of the Obama administration?

We do not have enough oil to make a serious dent in the price of oil. Why not take advantage of the fact that, once you have the infrastructure in place, wind and solar energy are basically free for the taking, and, as an added bonus, they're clean.

Democrats are opposed to the voucher system because it would undermine the public school system. Good schools only have so many slots. Once the good schools are filled, what do we do with the rest of the students? Shouldn't we, instead, focus on making all schools as good as Sidwell Friends by investing in better schools and better teachers?

And Saddam Hussein considered Islamic radicals to be a threat. The only reason al Queda came to Iraq is because we invaded Iraq.

I hope that helps you to sort out your thinking a little better.



Get Your Story Straight
You folks on the Right need to get together and get your story straight. Some of you describe Obama as a workaholic who is over-reaching by taking on too many issues and who is diabolically trying to scare the American people into cooperating with him by applying pressure ("fear-mongering"). All of this would add up to a man who knows what he's doing, who has a plan, and who is executing his plan. But at the same time some of you (right here on townhall) have described Obama as a lazy not-very-bright happy-go-lucky Affirmative Action black buck who just wants to ride around on Air Force One and have a good time while he leaves the hard work of government to other people. One poster said that's why Obama appointed Cabinet Secretaries and advisors. Another (who apparently hasn't heard that we have three branches of government) said that's why Obama "leaves legislating to Reid and Pelosi".

These two visions of Obama contradict each other. You can't be a workaholic and lazy at the same time.

To Jesse
Think real hard. See if you can remember the Bush administration mentioning something about a mushroom cloud. About buying yellowcake in Africa. See if you can remember Bush connecting Saddam Hussein and the 9-11 attack on New York and Washington again and again and again until the media finally stopped him by pointing out repeatedly that no such connection existed. See if you've ever heard of Yellow Alert and Orange Alert and Red Alert. See if you can dredge up from your memory some excuse for invading a sovereign nation that had not attacked us---something about "weapons of mass destruction".

Tom
A huge private insurance company is no more efficient than a government run insurance company. France and many other countries deliver better health care than we do, and at half the cost. And if you don't think that private insurers ration health care, you don't have any experience with our health care system. I waited for two hours in the doctor's office before seeing the doctor. I had to wait two weeks for an appointment.

And do you have any idea how hard private insurers work to deny coverage for patients under the pretense that they had a "previous condition"?



We don't have nearly enough oil to make a serious dent in the price of oil. We need to invest in an energy infrastructure that will allow us to collect and store (in batteries for instance) solar and wind power, which are clean and cheap.



Local education leads to huge disparities in the quality of education. Why should people in poor areas get a worse education? And is that really good for the country? Shouldn't we want everyone to have a shot at a decent education? Doesn't that make us stronger as a nation?



Tony
The cap and trade tax and the cigarette taxes are taxes that are designed to discourage behaviors that are bad for us. They will then use the revenues to promote things that are good for us, like better health care and cleaner, cheaper energy.

If we can move to an economy that relies largely on wind and solar, there will be a glut of oil and it will be cheap as hell.

If you add it all up, I don't think you will be paying more than you are now in taxes. Probably less, in my humble opinion. My guess is that it will not have a significant impact either way.

And as far as unions go, we need to do something to ensure that all of the profits of companies don't go to the people at the very top. That's part of the problem we have now: Too much wealth disparity. Unions can get out of control, and we should all watch out for that. But at this point in time I think they are needed to balance out the power with ownership and upper management.



Reply #33
Phy - we will just have to agree to disagree.
You obviously think more government is better. We conservatives think government that governs least, governs best.
Perhaps we could take up a collection right here on TH for one way air fare for you to the socialist country of your choice.

The President's brain
Nancy (Evita) Pelosi
Nancy Pelosi is Evita Peron after Botox. The most arrogant broad ever to be elected to the House. She is the go-between to Soros' move-on.org and B.Hussein.

She cobbled together this present debaucle we are suffering under. We know where she got her orders. Soros' machine paid millions to fund ACORN and other subversive groups to get Democrats in the majority and she must march to his orders.

Now,B.Hussein will allow Nancy 'Peron'to make the same mistake with National Health Care. We will see what Soros & Co. plans to do with that. Whatever it is will be devastating to our citizens.That is the plan.

It is frightening to think Pelosi is so close to becoming president. Still,in essence,she already is. B.Hussein is only her mouthpiece. Her salesman and frontman with a teleprompter. Pathetic.

PHYLO part 1
I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU SORT OUT YOUR THINKING!!!

FOX NEWS debunked FACTCHECK. Also several of the items that FACTCHECK has investigated are questionable. Oh wait, I know, FOXNEWS cannot be trusted. They are not in for the MESSIAH. I should just watch MSNBC where they get “TINGLY FEELINGS IN THEIR LEGS” at the very site of NOBAMA.
As far as the oil off our coastline; there is believed to be as much as 10 billion barrels of the coast of Florida alone and another 10 billion barrels in Alaska. If there was not enough oil off the coast of Florida, China would not be in negotiations with Cuba to allow China to drill. As far as the next great energy source, I believe that HYDROGEN is being overlooked. A hydrogen Fuel Cells only waste product is water. HYDROGEN is also the most abundant fuel source in the UNIVERSE. Gee, it only makes sense.
The public school system “broke” during WWII when all the male teachers left to fight the war. The teaching of our youth was left to those that “babied” them. So much so that now they can’t play tag or use red pens because it might hurt their psyci. The left has so bastardized our school text books that they do not even call the TERRORISTS that attacked us on 9-11 TERRORISTS. They are being characterized as poor misunderstood Islamists that are being oppressed. The morals of teachers are so far out of control that it is ludicrous. Every day we are told of more and more teachers who are having sexual relations with their young charges. Until there is some form of morals and standards that teachers have to adhere to then it is a lost cause. By the way PHYLO, do you believe in the “EQUAL OPPROTUNITY ACT”? This act caused part of the problem by mandating that we give a job to someone based on something other than who was best for the job.

Tom
Actually, I don't think more government is better. For me it's as simple as noticing that many other countries are providing much better health care for much less using a government run system.

I'm for doing what works. If private health care can prove that they can provide superior care for less than the best government run programs, I'll change my mind.

Right now, private health care is losing the argument.

Philo and Bill....
When it comes to having real dialogue, it's a losing battle that we are engaged it. They think the answer to every problem is free market thinking, what they don't understand is that just like greed and selfishness pushes mankind to new inventions and greater prosperity, wealth etc., it also invites disaster (like the one we are facing) because of excessive greed. They completely refuse to see that. Markets do not self regulate, they will do things the same way if we let them do it again. We are all selfish and greedy in way, and no one is an exception, and the same applies to the markets. This does not mean the Government should indulge in activities that prohibit growth and innovation, but to protect public interest through rationale policies.

They don't see what Bush did for the last eight years as fear mongering, because to them it's only natural for a commander-in-chief to "protect" it's people. They also think that much of the world, except for the(white European counterparts) are pretty much "evil" and there fore need a strong arm in dealing with the rest of "un-civilized" world. The rest of the world are not seen as equal partners in the affairs the worlds. They see even the slightest suggestion that the US lives in a community of nations, and that their "rights and interests" are not always in the best interests to the rest of world, and in some cases down right disastrous to others.


PYLO cont'd
“A former Iraqi diplomat living in exile summed up Saddam's rule in one sentence: "Saddam is a dictator who is ready to sacrifice his country, just so long as he can remain on his throne in Baghdad." Few Iraqis would disagree with this. Although none living in Iraq would dare to say so publicly”. This is a quote from the BBC.
Saddam was a religious radical. Just because he did not want other radicals around does not lessen that fact. “And, for all that Saddam Hussein is criticized and reviled, his opponents have not been able to nominate anyone else who might hold Iraq together - with its Kurds in the north, Sunni Muslims in the centre and Shi'ia in the south. What the outside world calls terror, Saddam calls expediency.” It was well known that he believed that his Baath party was the only party. “Some years ago a European interviewer nervously quoted reports that the Baghdad authorities might, on occasions, have tortured and perhaps even killed opponents of the regime.” “Was this true? Saddam Hussein was not offended. Rather, he seemed surprised by the naivete of the question. "Of course," he replied. "What do you expect if they oppose the regime?" So in his own words he stated that those that did not believe as he did were to be executed.

continued.....
If somebody points that out, then they must be "anti-American", "terrorist", against "tradional values", because it's not the world view they have been set up to believe in. So, because it's a big bad world out there, and also because there is no connection AT ALL between the policies over the past 100 years and how certain parts of the world have turned out to be, they certainly need a massive military budget to counter "threats" and thereby pushing everybody else to a militaristic mode. They don't see any contradictions in supporting certain dicatators and bashing others as freedom-hating monsters who should be rid from the world if it fits certain narrow interests.


Tom
Denmark would be nice.

The Barry Bunch
What this sorry bunch is doing to stoke the flames of fear is just outright EVIL.

PHYLO,
WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR CAP & TRADE?
WHO IS PAYING FOR CHIP?
If there are not enough smokers then the money is going to come from somewhere else. There is also talk of raising MEDICADE and MEDICARE tax and unemployment taxes. Just because my income tax, which is going to go up because it has to pay for the 4+Trillion that this administration has spent, is supposedly not going up, then raising taxes on other things still increases the money leaving my pocket for taxes. Call it what you want but the fact is IT IS A TAX INCREASE.
IF those executives made the company better and they have a contract then it must be honored. You cannot change the rules because you don’t like the game. No one held a gun to the board of directors to have them sign the contract. If you think that I am going to give back my hard earned salary back because there are people in this country who are not able to perform as I do, then you are sadly mistaken. I work very hard for my money and I will decide who I am going to give my charitable contributions to. If card check goes through and a UNION tries to enter into my business with card check I will close the doors. The 2000+ employees that I have will be out of work and I will not feel the least bit guilty. I worked too hard and built my company from the ground up to have anyone come in and tell me what to do and when.

And Carter....
Just like your name sake should have, you should read history and the Constitution. Our founding fathers did not intend for the government to be the end all too every problem that you have. Perhaps if you take some responsibilities for yourself then you can wean yourself from the government tit.
And speaking of doing things the same way, how about the fact that NOBAMA is enacting “The new new act” and socialism because he is naïve enough to believe that he is smarter than everyone else and can do it better.
As for GOVERNMENT, its only purpose is to protect its citizens. “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” “Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.” Are just a few quotes from our forefathers. You know about them right. They are the ones who gave you the right to state your opinion on this blog. “For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.”

Here is one more CARTER..
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master"

One for Conservatives...
"Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession"

hail to the chief
Great response Tony #45.I was a victim of Affirmative Action, and it was a total disaster. When a successful business owner is told, how, when,and who they must hire, and fire, it is time to close the business. Unions are nothing more than disguised Socialists, with Communist mentality. I am sure those 2000 employees would be extremely upset if they knew you were closing shop. We need more Tony's.

Tony
You have a company with 2000 employees?

And you are going to shut it down if it becomes unionized?

If you treat your employees well enough, they won't feel the need to unionize.

And you must not make much money, or get much satisfaction from, running your company if you are so quick to want to shut it down.

Frankly, I find your claim a little dubious.





Phylo
I will shut it the day the union walks in. It is actually a couple of hotels and several restaurants that I own and yes I am willing to close the doors rather than let someone else tell me how to run it. Besides I can open up another business anytime. With card check and the way that the AFLCIO works I won't have a chance.

And not that it is any of your concern, I live confortably and will exceed the new tax cuts line thanks.

Phylo
The AFLCIO storms a place like a hotel that is not unionized and disturbes guests and workers alike. They feel it is there right to invade private spaces and to place flyewrs under guest room doors all the while pretending to be looking out for the best interest of their union members. This past week they were down in MIami and created quite a mess for a few of my fellow hotel owner's. They spend as bad as the government staying at 400 per night rooms on the backs of hard American workers. Mind you this was just for the top level of management for the AFLCIO and they even had a private meeting with BRAINLESS JOE BIDEN.

Bob C + Moron = Bob C
Conservatives didn't have to worry about the rules during the Bush administration because you just changed them, let them expire or just flat out ignored them. You ignored treaties with other countries about torture, abducted US citizens without filing charges, having trials or access to attorneys. The pesky press and their stupid freedom of the press was getting in the way, so Bush had his Justice Dept. give him the power to issue blackouts. Dick Cheney gave himself the power to abuse it and classify everything. Oh and lets not forget about all those regulations that got in the way of "true capitalism" as you like to call it, where there is no ethical responsibility to running a business. They let regulations like the Glass Steagle act, which was put into place after the great depression, expire and countless others as well. What is really funny is that it was the Bush administration that by not following the rules/laws of our country, made Gitmo the a-hole of the world and you conservatives criticize Obama for trying to clean it up by following the law. You haven't the capacity nor the brain power to fathom a different world than what you see around you today and that Bob C, is pathetic.

Phylo - The Utopia of Gov. Healthcare
You write:
"For me it's as simple as noticing that many other countries are providing much better health care for much less using a government run system."

Funny, the press from those other countries which are supposedly "providing much better health care" seem to disagree with your assessment, as these recent headlines from GB and Canada illustrate. Coming to a hospital near you:

NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery
- Chris Brooke, February 28, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
- January 31, 2008 [The Scotsman]

NHS rationing rife, say doctors
- September 24, 2007 [BBC]

One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
- John Carvel, June 8, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors
- Sarah Boseley, November 24, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, August 24, 2008 [The Times]

Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
- Sarah Boseley, June 8, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

Dental patients face care lottery
- March 26, 2008 [Metro(UK)]

Secret NHS plan to ration patient care
- Nigel Hawkes, April 7, 2006 [The Times]

We all pay a price for our 'free' NHS
- John Smith, August 19, 2005 [The Scotsman]

British health service facing nurse exodus
- April 25, 2005 [United Press International]

Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
- David Simms, June 25, 2005 [ABC Money (UK)]

Heart patients die on waiting lists
- Peter Sharples, October 18, 2004 [Manchester Online]

Waiting list row blights Brighton
- John Carvel, September 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

Shortage of dentists to double by 2011
- John Carvel, July 24, 2004 [Guardian UK]

Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
- Jo Revill, February 6, 2005 [Guardian UK]

Tony
Like I said, if you treat your employees well, and they feel they are being treated fairly, they won't feel the need to unionize.

From what I hear, hotel employees are among the most exploited class of workers in this country. I hope you aren't contributing to that problem.

Phylo - Must read!
The following is a quote from Dr. SANJAY GUPTA from Anderson Cooper's 360 about Michael Moore's movie "Sicko."

GUPTA: "And Moore presents a lot of facts throughout the movie. But do they all check out? "Keeping Them Honest," we did some digging, and we started with the biggy. The United States slipped to number 37 in the world's health care systems. It's true. Thirty-seven is the ranking, according to the World Health Organization's latest data on 191 countries. It's based on general health level, patient satisfaction, access and how it's paid for. France tops the list. Italy and Spain make it into the top 10. The United Kingdom is 18."


Phylo, I would think it would be smarter to base ones opinions on overall performance than form in on a few isolated cases. I can only imagine your pain in knowing that big bad America can't even beat out the biggest socialists of the world concerning health care.

Sorry Phylo my last post was for Strongo
My bad

BROWN & OBAMA'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX 3

Brown blew Bush away at their first news conference at Camp David and Bush didn't seem too comfortable with the situation. But did it stop Bush from having a second conference with Brown, or possibly a third? No. Why? The press conferences weren't about Bush, they were about issues, and principally the War on Terror. On the other hand, Obama's decision to cancel his press conference with Brown was all about Obama, all about our malignant narcissist-in-chief and his self-esteem problems. All about his meager talents and being an empty suit. All about his inauthenticity and lack of guts. Behold the new face of America, the face of a cowardly, whimpering fool. The man that the left will be cursing to death when the curtain falls of his tragedy.





More for Phylo, Canada style
Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
- Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
- March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
- Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
- Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
- October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
- David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]

Ont. physician turns away patient for being 55+
- March 17, 2006 [CTV.ca]

Grads fail to slow doctor shortage
- Jennifer O'Brien, May 21, 2005 [London Free Press]

Access to specialists difficult: study
- February 16, 2005 [CBC Calgary]

Surgery backlog tops 5,500 at kids' hospitals; One-year waits common
- Aaron Derfel, December 3, 2004 [The Gazette (Montreal)]

Hospital wait lists to get worse, Carriere says
- Chris Traber, November 14, 2004 [Yorkregion.com]

Frustrated patients can't handle ER waits
- Jennifer Stewart and Jeffrey Simpson, October 28, 2004 [The Halifax Herald Limited]

Canada's Once-Proud Public Health System in Crisis
- David Ljunggren, September 14, 2004 [Reuters (Ottawa)]

Hospitals to cut, again
- September 5, 2004 [Toronto Star]

Canada's Medical Nightmare
- Robert J. Cihak, M.D., September 1, 2004 [Health Care News]

Canada faces shortage of doctors
- August 19, 2004 [MSNBC]

Canadians losing faith in health system: poll
- August 16, 2004 [CTV.ca]

Ontario hospitals a health risk
- Michael Hurley, August 8, 2004 [Toronto Star]



Boy, I can't wait until King Obama the Merciful is kind enough to rid us of our healthcare nightmare and install a more humane and efficient government monopoly like those they are enjoying in Britain and Canada.

ApolloSpeaks words and no wisdom
Obama has yet to hold a true "Bush" press conference with pre-screened questions and ignoring the media outlets that don't favor the president's beliefs and agenda. Old Bush called on Helen Thomas just once during his presidency because she called him out on the war and called it for what it was on live TV, making him look pretty stupid. Nobody tried harder to control what the press could ask him than Bush. He knew he wasn't smart enough for them so he stacked things in his favor.

Rock Strongo Now read!
Rock, I posted this earlier directed at Phylo by mistake. It was really for you!

The following is a quote from Dr. SANJAY GUPTA from Anderson Cooper's 360 about Michael Moore's movie "Sicko."

GUPTA: "And Moore presents a lot of facts throughout the movie. But do they all check out? "Keeping Them Honest," we did some digging, and we started with the biggy. The United States slipped to number 37 in the world's health care systems. It's true. Thirty-seven is the ranking, according to the World Health Organization's latest data on 191 countries. It's based on general health level, patient satisfaction, access and how it's paid for. France tops the list. Italy and Spain make it into the top 10. The United Kingdom is 18."


Rock, I would think it would be smarter to base ones opinions on overall performance than form one on a few isolated cases. I can only imagine your pain in knowing that big bad America can't even beat out the biggest socialists of the world concerning health care. Even the UK.

History
Does the history of the left and 70 years wealth re-distribution that has utterly failed, of a public school system in tatters, and we are pell mell headed into more of the left lunacy, it is and has always failed. Free market capitalism may not be perfect, but it works, it has created more wealth, higher standards of living than any collectivist attempt, indeed all social experiments have failed or are failing or are re-verting to some type of capitalism even China. These idiots in Washington cannot fix anything, there is no evidence that they are competant to run a cool aid stand.

Strongo (continued)
I think everyone on this thread fancies them self as the kind of person that would risk their own life to save a child running into the street. Sadly, until we are faced with such an occurrence, we might never know if we are made of that kind of kind of virtue. That being said, the kind of person that would possess that courage would most likely be the same kind of person that would support saving lives on a mass scale by ensuring millions of children have health care. That person would not be able to draw a stark contrast between saving the life of a child and saving money. If it were my child in the street, I would not want someone standing on the sidewalk that can draw a line between a child's life and money. Which person are you going to be?

Duplicitous
Liberals criticize Bush for exploiting a crisis. When conservatives say Obama is doing the same thing, their response is that Obama's motives are pure. This is duplicitous, since their original criticism was about exploiting the crisis. The argument about "to what end" is a separate matter.

Wade
You appear to be well intentioned, that is a trademark of those on the left. The left is generally wrong but as they say about the road to hell you are well intentioned. Start by asking yourself what the Government does well, the short answer is not a dam thing. When they do anything the results are always bad to disasterous. Would you like to get the kind of health care for the "child" that vets get at the VA hospitals, I bet not. Everyone is assuming that if we get universal health care run by the government that all of a sudden the government will become efficient and costs will be effectively controlled that service will increase and the birds will all sing on key. I ask again where is the evidence they can run anything well? This is not a diatribe against either party there is simply no evidence that they can do this, they never have. The war on Poverty is a great example, we have transferred 5 trillion dollars and yet the poor are still with us. Hmmm

David
So your opinion is that we should have no federal government? If you take a broad sweeping stance that the Fed is incapable of running anything right then you must be anti-government. Separatist? What? The right is real good at pointing at problems and saying this needs fixing but if tax cuts and deregulation and war don't fix it then it becomes an impossible task, so why bother.

Wade
There are a very few things that government should do, obviously protect the borders provide for defense. You however are apparently afraid to answer my question, what does the government do that makes you think they can manage an effective health system. Try that on and we will talk more.

Phylo

At a rate of a bankruptcy every 60 seconds, there'd be 31,560,000 bankruptcies in a year.

Curious, because according to the American bankruptcy Institute, there were only 850,912 bankruptcies in 2007.

As always, Phylo, you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Bob
your math is wrong, at 1 bankruptcy every minute, you have 60 per hour times 24 equals 1440 times 365 which comes to 525,600 BK's per year

David & Phylo

Thank you, David. I am in error.

I apologize, Phylo. I am in error.

However, I still don't believe that healthcare costs are responsible for 62% of the bankruptcies filed.

Statistics such as these remind me of the homeless figures here in Massachusetts (1 in 5 children in Massachusetts are homeless) or the global warming myth (the average temperature has actually gone DOWN in the last ten years).

David

The Great Depression is an example of how our government can improve upon itself and do the right thing sometimes with good leadership. During the great depression,unemployment skyrocketed--a quarter of the workforce was without jobs by 1933 and many people became homeless.

President Herbert Hoover attempted to handle the crisis by using tax cuts and balancing the budget but he was unable to improve the situation. In 1932, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was elected president and he promised a "New Deal" for the American people. Roosevelt's administration saw the passage of banking reform laws, emergency relief programs, work relief programs, and agricultural programs.Congress created The Works Progress Administration (WPA) which offered work relief for thousands of people and the Civilian Conservation Corps to name a few.Within one year of the New Deal in play the unemployment rate dropped from 25% to 15%. By 1939, the New Deal had run its course. New Deal programs helped improve the lives of people suffering from the events of the depression and that is a fact. Hoover was out of touch with the problems of the times and it showed in his approach. Tax cuts and less government. Hmmm now what political party does that sound like?

Bush and Obama
I would like to make an observation for discussion. Both administrations used/use crisis and fear to promote their own agenda. As the highest ranking elected officials they have a mandate by the poeple to lead them where they see fit. Agree or disagree this is the essence of politics.

The populus in America grew extremely tired of the Bush administration choosing to continually lie to the people of America about their. The result was an extremely low approval rating. By about midway through Bush's presidency it seemed that Bush was doing what he felt was in the best interest of the country but I felt you almost had to have a mental defect to believe a word that came out of the administration. They just decided that the American people didn’t get to know why they did what they did and chose to lie about their reasoning and intentions. They were like a kid with cake all over their face who refused to say they had eaten any cake.

continued
The backlash now is an administration that is almost too honest about their agenda and how they are going about enacting their policies. And they have a high approval rating because people are tired of being lied to and now think, "at least they're honest." Like the policies or not the administration is going to put into place the agenda it sees fit by any means available.

This article is interesting because it almost condones lying, “The Bush administration always denied this, and rightly so. If the president admitted that he was using a national calamity for narrow partisan or ideological advantage, it would be outrageous.” I know they are politicians and so by definition liars and crooks (sarcasm) but at least this presidency is at least somewhat transparent.

Any comments or discussion is welcomed.




Tony
Phylo doesn't have a clue. My husband and I also owned a business at one time. We certainly would have gone under if we had to comply with the union demands. Instead we put people to work, paid them well, gave them medical insurance, generous vacation time and all was happy. I am convinced as I read more and more of Phylo's posts that he is a guy that has stayed home and been on the government dole for a long time. He has no sense of reality and he thinks that giveaways are great.

Wade
On any level the "Great Depression" proves my hypothesis. Whether you believe that FDR's new deal prolonged the depression as many do now, or whether it improved quality of lives, 10 years of 15 to 25% unemployment is a flacid recovery. Indeed there is virtual agreement on both sides of the argument that the GD was ended by WWll, not by the NEW DEAL.

Wade
The New Deal did leave us some cool buildings and dams and stuff however. That kind of public spending probally helped some.

Fear Mongering
To attribute "fear Mongering" to one party or the other is absurd. Both have been doing it so long I wonder why they continue, the cried wolf syndrome has to be pretty high.

David (Continued)
Too bad the war didn't start until 1939. The unemployment rate had already been reduced from 25% to 10% by the start of the war. Explain how a war that had yet to start can reduce the unemployment rate by 15%. If Obama could have that kind of success we would have more jobs than we do people. Being that our current unemployment rate is around 9%, a 15% reduction would pose a new problem not entirely all that bad. Employers would be in competition with each other for workers not the other way around. Meaning, better conditions, better pay and opportunities.

Wade
Hoover was wrong about Smoot Hawley but the tax cuts were a good thing. SOme directed government spending would probally have helped also. The market correction was almost over when the SH acts were passed and made the market correction a global event that lasted a decade. The new Deal spending never had its desired effect even FDR's Sec of Treasury admitted that

Wade
So if Obama's plan works in say 7 years you will call that a winner! You are not that dumb.

lilly et al
You wrote:

"Another (who apparently hasn't heard that we have three branches of government) said that's why Obama "leaves legislating to Reid and Pelosi"."

The most damaging fallacy in the U.S. is the concept of a "three branches" government. It fails to recognize the most powerful "branch" that there is in the U.S. Republic --- The People!

There are only TWO fixed branches of government: Those who make the laws (House and Senate) and those who enforce the laws (President/Courts). Courts have police powers.

The third "branch" is the People as voters and jury members. Any study of English common law and courts at the founding of the U.S. will confirm the ultimate power of the People. Jurors were charged with decisions based on the merits of the case as well as the law (jury nullification). A jury could nullify any law found to be unconstitutional or reject the prosecution based on the law applied. Today a judge will prohibit a defense attorney, under threat of jail, from advising a jury of this right and reject potential jurors already aware of it. As a result, jury nullification has simply become a unanimous finding of "not guilty" which does nothing to challenge the actual law.

The U.S. Supreme Court has assumed powers that are vested in the People alone and we all suffer from a government running amok due to our ignorance of this fact. We now have an entire population believing that government is somehow separate from them and that they are helpless to change it. A simple understanding of this fact would go a long way towards returning the ultimate power to "We, the People". It is our sacred duty to know this and one of our greatest inalienable rights. Please spread the word!

Very Important - Computers Hacked

Very Important - Computers Hacked

If you have made any political donations to Conservative or Republican candidates or political organizations, please be advised that there is a whole lot of hacking going on. I just got off the phone with a reporter from a Minneapolis newspaper, who interviewed me in connection with a donation that my company made to the Coleman campaign. wikileaks.org has a database online with all the information of the donors, i.e., names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, credit card numbers, etc.

Please check the database and CANCEL YOUR CREDIT CARD, NOW!!!

The tenacles of the Anti-Prop 8 LibNazis are a'spreading.

Please pass this along and post in EVERYWHERE.

Thanks, denise

Phylo 11:58

Denmark would be nice. Phylo

============================

Their income tax is 50% and your ok with this?

The Boston Tea Party was over a 8% tax! 50% is un-American, so feel free to go to Denmark.

David
Spending programs had a direct effect on job creation during the great depression. When industry and technology sectors were unable to hire spending programs created the much needed job growth, period. Our current economic situation is here because Republicans, since the depression, have made it there philosophy to remove all the regulations that kept us somewhat safe. Hence the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in the United States and included banking reforms, some of which were designed to control speculation.[1] Some provisions such as Regulation Q, which allowed the Federal Reserve to regulate interest rates in savings accounts, were repealed by the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980 (Ronald Reagan). Provisions that prohibit a bank holding company from owning other financial companies were repealed on November 12, 1999, (Republican Controlled Congress)contributing to the subprime mortgage financial crisis.

Wade
I agree that repeel of Glass Stegal was wrong and contributed to our current problem I am not stupid enough or partisan enough to try and blame only one party or the other, they all did it. We just won't re-cover by spending money we don't have to get us out of a too much debt problem. Pretty simple you can't borrow yourself to prosperity and it is never the fault of only one party, they are all smucks.

Wade
BTW here are the actual unemployment rates for the period of the GD.
1923-29
3.3

1930
8.9

1931
15.9

1932
23.6

1933
24.9

1934
21.7

1935
20.1

1936
17.0

1937
14.3

1938
19.0

1939
17.2

1940
14.6

As you can see in 1939 it was still 17.2% stuning recovery dont you think?

Mr Goldberg...
...Very wise observation, Thanks for noticing that.

Glass Steagal has had provisions removed during the Carter years, the Reagan years, the Clinton years and the Bush years. Don't try to blame any one party for it. Oh there is plenty of retoric that blames Reagan, but Carter had his hand in it too. Check your sources for a liberal bias.

I don't blame any of the above for trying to motivate the economy, I will blame the Bush admin for failing to protect it.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
yes, Obama is a fear mongerer.

I heard this on Laura, on Gallagher, on Rush, now Goldberg. No original thoughts on the right, are there?

I suppose that Obama has people all over the world talking down those economies too. Makes so much sense to put people out of work, companies bankrupt, just to get health care. Do the logic math, Goldberg. Your logic leaves a lot to be desired. You don't really believe this rot anyway. You voted for Obama, you just play this crowd of talking point parrots. LOL

Liberals & Other Jokes
If any president decided to covertly destroy the country from within ,what methods would be used that Obama hasn't used?


Wade
You ask: "Which person are you going to be?"

I'm going to be the person who realizes that if I choose to bring children into this world, it is I, and not my fellow Americans, who is responsible for their care.

I'm going to be the person that doesn't demand that my fellow Americans provide me with anything.

Unfortunately, I will soon be in the minority.

Oh please...
What a pathetic comparison. 9/11 is nothing like the current crisis and is not creating a fear for one's life from mysterious boogie man "the terrorist" for everyone to fear so civil liberties are revoked and a sort of fascist crackdown can take place. This crisis will not be forcing us to commit military forces to protect our very lives to try and contain the "threat".

This current crisis has no scary boogie man, as much as some folks try to make one up with "Wall Street CEOs", "Irresponsible Banks" or "Sub Prime hedge funds" as the bad guys.

None of these things are any where equal to a threat of invasion, nuclear dirty bomb or gas attack that would kill thousands.

It is a financial crisis, but nobody is in fear of their very lives (though perhaps livelyhoods).

The opportunities that the current adminstration speak of are for reform of institutions that are completely failed or clearly failing. There is not as much as a pushing of a personal agenda as there is a scrambling attempt to steer the ship away from the icebergs ahead. This crisis has opened a door to make changes (healthcare, social security, banking regulation, etc.) that entrenched polictics has not allowed for decades. There is some fear, but that kind of fear is requsite to make changes of a staus quo that is clearly moribund. The changes that are being proposed, in one way or another, are changes that are needed. Will they work? That still remains to be seen. Fear mongering by Obama is an absolutely ridiculous claim.

If you can manage see through the smoke of the burning Straw Man, you may be able to see the Red Herring.

To compare the two crisis situations and the consequences following therefrom is insulting and quite frankly offensive.

OH PLEASE, Mike (WA)
The gross exaggerations in your post tell a person all they need to know - that you find a well laid out concept difficult to understand.

Obama saying we will have a "catastrophe" if we don't pass his "stimulus" bill sounds like fear-mongering to me, but to you it is "absolutely ridiculous."

Comparing how two presidents are handling a criis, and opposition party response, you find "insulting" and "quite frankly offensive." Hmmm. I bet you're offended because Mr. Goldberg's point (Obama is using the financial crisis to further his agenda) struck a raw nerve with you.

Tom
Indiana

Phylo and Wade
Phylo - The "fact" the President cited that the healthcare system causes a bankruptcy every 60 seconds is disingenuous at best and fearmongering(I'm not sure that's a word) at worst. The study cited by the President counted among its data bankruptcies due to gambling losses. The authors of the study considered gambling a disease; thereby linking it to the healthcare system. Even if you believe that gambling is a disease, that statistic has nothing to do with the basis for the President's forum on health care. The statistic as cited by the President was clearly meant to imply that a bankruptcy is filed every 60 seconds because a person suffers a catatrophic injury and the medical bills force him to file. Including bankruptcies due to gambling losses and not explaining that was clearly meant to instill fear, just as Jonah argues.

Wade - the report that you cite from Dr. Gupta is meaningless. The criteria it cited included "access" and "how its paid for". It was compiled by a quasi governmental body that favors universal, government run healthcare systems. Therefore, it is going to rank higher those countries that have those types of healthcare systems. Proponents of universal healthcare say that it will provide more "access" therefore, it is rated higher, but as the anecdotal evidence post by Rock Strongo demonstrates, saying their system provides "universal access" and actually achieving it are two different things. In addition, they don't like a private payer system so they rank higher those systems that are not based upon private pay. It's like the Fox grading the security at the hen house.


obama's fear-mongering to blame for this
obama has been using fear for years. He intentionally brought this nation down by talking it down. The fear was there before the housing crisis, stock market drop, layoffs and drop in GDP.

what about the 90%??
Approximate 10% unemployment....... and approximate 10% in mortgage forclosures, That leaves 90% of us with jobs AND 90% of us that are still managing to pay for our houses, yet all you hear about is doom and gloom, depression and (right from obama's mouth) CRISIS! One must wonder if the lie gets told often enough (per nazi Germany's propaganda minister Goebbels)it becomes the truth. Is this the "truth" they want? You NEVER hear about the 90% of us that still are employed and can still pay our way! AND they NEVER asked us 90% how we feel about bailing out those who made bad decisions to go ahead and buy homes way out of their price range, or if we would like to get a reduction on our mortgages. It's as if we don't exist. obama says we have nothing to fear but LACK OF fear itself. The only thing I fear is getting sold out and shut down by the politcians and news media. They're killing us!

Clinton' Fairy Tale
March 11, 2009
Jonah: I am one of those who feels that President Obama is attempting to be too many things to too many people. Pelosi and Reid are either bringing up the rear or as some say are out in front. A Federal health care system considering our deficit and the hundreds of agendas and players that may sit down at that table make Bill Clinton;s remark during the primaries telling. If we ever get to the point of even deliberating about this subject, the AMA, the drug companies, the insurers and the retired or current government union people like myself who are not going to give up the most comprehensive coverage in the world for some premium laden Sweden deal, will ensure no consensus in advance of any talks. We have a pathetic economy, global threats although not too troubling based on our military superiority but we also have two wars and the proverbial Middle East Tinder box. The domestic focus should be on the economy and jobs completely not on what at present is Bill Clinton's Fairy Tale which I would like to amend to Grimes Fairy Tale. I am sure that one day we will be able to assist the indigent or indebted in securing health care. Right now there is serious business at hand that will have to take precedence.

Jay R

wade : error alert !
your error:
"President Herbert Hoover attempted to handle the crisis by using tax cuts"

The Revenue Act of 1932 (June 6, 1932, ch. 209, 47 Stat. 169) raised United States tax rates across the board, with the rate on top incomes rising from 25 percent to 63 percent. The estate tax was doubled and corporate taxes were raised by almost 15 percent.

The provisions of the act applied to the taxable year of 1932 and all subsequent taxable years.

It was signed into law by President Herbert Hoover.

Dan
Why is when somebody offers proof of something that counters conservative beliefs, then conservatives attack the source and the information is bias toward the other side because its a "conspiracy against the right." Oh, the bias liberal media is unfairly against conservatives and picked on Bush for no reason. Oh, the Neilson ratings are bias toward liberal TV shows and against Bill O'Reilly. Oh, Obama is fear mongering because there is really nothing to fear at all. Oh, those evil scientists and their pesky facts and figures are just pushing a liberal agenda. Oh, the health care rankings are bias toward liberals because they have a hidden agenda. 2+2=4, I don't care how much you hate 4, it will always be 4. So demonizing 2 because it is part of the equation doesn't change the outcome, 2+2=4. I guess it is not possible that the rankings are right because some Republican Senator or radio talk show host said so. Dr. Gupta is the one who is wrong.

sol: double error alert!
The 1932 act was not, however, Hoover's first venture into tax revision. In October 1929, just a few weeks after the great stock market crash, he asked Congress to cut taxes, not raise them. If the 1932 law in retrospect seems horribly misguided and counterproductive, then the 1929 act seems more consistent with modern conservative theories of fiscal policy. Lets see how they fared. Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon told lawmakers that he expected a budget surplus in 1930 and 1931. As a result, he suggested, Congress would have ample room to cut taxes. Mellon insisted it was simply a routine refund of excess revenue to overburdened taxpayers in the midst of a depression.

Inside the Capitol, the Hoover-Mellon plan was well received. Republicans were broadly supportive and some democrats.

In his State of the Union message, delivered December 3, Hoover stressed the virtues of cutting taxes. "We cannot fail to recognize the obligations of the government in support of the public welfare," he declared, "but we must coincidentally bear in mind the burden of taxes and strive to find relief through some tax reduction. Every dollar so returned fertilizes the soil of prosperity."

In the weeks leading up to Hoover's budget address in early December, Mellon insisted repeatedly that tax cuts were affordable, even in the face of a market meltdown.

"Our estimates indicate that the government should close both the fiscal years 1930 and 1931 with a surplus," he said in a formal statement to the press.

(And in fact the government did finish 1930 with a surplus of $738 million. By 1931, however, shrinking revenues had created a deficit of $462 million.)

Taking all factors into consideration, the secretary of the Treasury, with the approval of the President recommend a tax reduction to the Congress.

And we all know how much better everything got after that.

Strongo
I applaud you on your wonderful sense of responsibility toward parenthood. However, there are a lot of people out there that don't.
Children do not pick there parents and can't buy their own insurance.

Wade
You need to relax. Drink a little more decaf. I never mentioned anything about a "conspiracy against the right." I made factual statements. You seem to be fixated on the "vast right wing conspiracy." You don't find it ironic that you wrote that conservatives such as myself can only regurgitate what we hear on talk radio while regurgitating, yourself, something that Michael Moore says.

Moreover, I never wrote that Dr. Gupta was wrong - he accurately cited a statistic from the World Health Organization. My argument is that the rankings estabished by the W.H.O. are subject to debate because the criteria with which they are concerned leads them to a different conclusion than others would reach. For me its a positive that we do not have universal health care, for the W.H.O its a negative. My rankings would be different.

Your logic is faulty: 2 + 2 = 4 is objectively quantifiable. 2 and 4 have an objective value. "Access to care" and an analysis of "how's its paid for" takes into account subjective criteria/values. The analogy doesn't work.

If the US has the 37th ranked health system why is it that people from all over the world pay money to come and treat here?

Dan
I never quoted Moore. I quoted Sanjay Gupta, M.D. an American neurosurgeon and professor of neurosurgery at Emory University School of Medicine and associate chief of the neurosurgery service at Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta. I'm sure he wouldn't quote the WHO if they weren't a credible resource.

The World Health Organization is a specialized agency of the United Nations that acts as a coordinating authority on international public health. Established in 1948. I think I will stick to the rankings of an agency that has worked with the entire planet on health, seen first hand what works and what does not work and has gathered factual data for six decades.


Tony, FL
I do not suck on the government tit, I have put myself through school and currently have a job which pays me decently. Now, I can play the same assumption game and call you racist and all the other names in the book just because you are on a "conservative" site.

There are so many things to debate, but just let's start with what you have quoted "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." I agree with that quote whole heartedly, but you want to apply everything is selectively right? The entire Bush administration was anathema to the quote you mentioned. But, I guess that it's alright to break laws except when you are trying to rendition anybody the the President deems a "threat" right? Most people on here think those things are alright, when the name sound like Maher Arar and not Mark Smith. He was taken to Syria to be tortured by the CIA only to find out that they got the wrong guy, when they released him a year or so later.Again, it doesn't matter the suffering his wife and kids went through when they thought they lost him right? This does not mean that I think we should exchanging flowers with violent people, these complex issues have to be dealt the holistically instead of just as an "war on terror" issue.

Wade
You keep missing the point. You quoted Gupta who was fact checking Moore's reference to the W.H.O rankings. He confirmed the rankings, nothing more nothing less. Apparently, you don't want to debate the accuracy of those rankings.

I am amused that you would think that the W.H.O's 6 decade affiliation with the U.N. would lend strength to your argument, considering how well the U.N. has done with everything else.


Dan
Is that the only argument conservatives have for health care. This group or this country didn't run something right once so that means it won't work or you can't trust the data. As far as six decades of experience, I was merely trying to pander to conservative philosophy and rhetoric. Wasn't "lack of experience" one of the chief reasons conservatives cited for not voting for Obama? I guess that only applies to issues or people your in favor of.

Also, I understand the point you are trying to make and my point is there is no reason to debate the accuracy any further and here is why. No matter who ranks the US, if we are not first, then a better system than ours is out there. You think medical bills so high that people loose their homes is the best? Or refusing to save lives because insurance companies say the procedure is "experimental," is a model program? How about getting dropped from your insurance because your cancer costs them too much and in turn you can't get basic coverage somewhere else because you have a preexisting condition. We are not first, we are not the best method of providing health care. Our arrogance in this country will be our undoing. Turning a blind eye to the rest of the world because we are so convinced of our own superiority is dumb.

Wade
Twice I have typed in witty retorts and reasoned arguments in response. Unfortunately, each time it was lost before it posted. I was told thay my posting was too long, but it was shorter than other posts I have written. I will try again later.


Hey CARTER
Rendition was introduced by BILL CLINTON. It was used first by BILL CLINTON.

Having reread my previous post I am unable to find where I did any name calling. I mearly pointed out that you and your name sake, Jimmy "I Love Peanuts" Carter both need to reveiw history. Your liberal biast rings through so if that assumption was wrong then perhaps you need to speak more eliquently and not like a liberal crybaby.

I disagree with you on the BUSH administration. PRESIDENT BUSH was faced with the worst terrorist attack in AMERICAN history. He spent the next 7 years keeping us safe. If BILL CLINTON had acted on intelligence reports about BIN LAUDEN and his intent on killing AMERICANS, then there would not have been a 9-11. NOBAMA is leading this country down a path that will cause us to suffer an even greater loss of AMERICAN life. If there are people out there that want to kill us then my motto is Kill the bastards first. The fact that most of those who have attacked us from Al Queda have been muslims does not reomove the fact that John Lindt exhists. As for Mark Smith, collateral damage happens. Our country is based on the good of the many weighed against the good of the one. The fact remains that PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH kept us safe for 7 years. How long is it before another attack on AMERICAN soil? My guess it will be alot sooner!
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