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Wednesday, December 03, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
An Ugly Attack on Mormons
by Jonah Goldberg
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Did you catch the political ad in which two Jews ring the doorbell of a nice working-class family? They barge in and rifle through the wife's purse and then the man's wallet for any cash. Cackling, they smash the daughter's piggy bank and pinch every penny. "We need it for the Wall Street bailout!" they exclaim.

No? Maybe you saw the one with the two swarthy Muslims who knock on the door of a nice Jewish family and then blow themselves up?

No? Well, then surely you saw the TV ad in which two smarmy Mormon missionaries knock on the door of an attractive lesbian couple. "Hi, we're from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!" says the blond one with a toothy smile. "We're here to take away your rights." The Mormon zealots yank the couple's wedding rings from their fingers and then tear up their marriage license.

As the thugs leave, one says to the other, "That was too easy." His smirking comrade replies, "Yeah, what should we ban next?" The voice-over implores viewers: "Say no to a church taking over your government."

Obviously, the first two ads are fictional because no one would dare run such anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim attacks.

The third ad, however, was real. It was broadcast throughout California on Election Day as part of the effort to rally opposition to Proposition 8, the initiative that successfully repealed the right to same-sex marriage in the state.

What was the reaction to the ad? Widespread condemnation? Scorn? Rebuke? Tepid criticism?

Nope.

The Los Angeles Times, a principled opponent of Proposition 8, ran an editorial lamenting that the "hard-hitting commercial" was too little, too late.

The upshot seemed to be that if the pro-gay-marriage forces had just flooded the airwaves with more religious slander, things would have turned out better.

At a pro-gay-marriage rally in Los Angeles after the vote, chants of "Mormon scum!" were reported. Envelopes containing white powder have been sent to Mormon temples in California and Utah; vandals hit other temples. Lists of businesses to boycott -- essentially Mormon blacklists -- have sprung up on the Internet. The artistic director of the California Musical Theatre resigned because of pressure after it was revealed he gave $1,000 to a pro-Proposition 8 group.

It's amazing. Hollywood liberals, who usually shout "McCarthyism!" as a first resort, see nothing wrong with this. If Jews were attacked in this way for giving too much money to a political cause, Barbra Streisand would already have a French passport.

Never mind that Proposition 8 carried nearly every demographic slice of voters. Put aside the fact that the Catholic Church and scores of other Christian churches supported it too. Discount the inconvenient truth that bans on gay marriage have now passed in each of the 30 states in which they've been put before voters. It's all the Mormons' fault.

The argument is that Mormons used illegitimate power, in this case money, beyond their numerical standing in the population to secure victory for the measure. Golly, wealthy gay liberals would never do anything like that! I bet they're not giving a single dime -- disproportionate to their numbers in the population -- to the effort to overturn Proposition 8 via the courts.

No, it's just that Mormons are the most vulnerable of the culturally conservative religious denominations and therefore the easiest targets for an organized campaign against religious freedom of conscience.

Traditional religion is the enemy anywhere it runs afoul of complete social acceptance of homosexuality. In New Mexico, a wedding photographer was fined nearly $7,000 for refusing to shoot a gay commitment ceremony. The dating site eHarmony, run by evangelicals, was just bullied by gay activists via the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights into starting up a site for gays. The first 10,000 registrants must get six months free.

It's often lost on gay-rights groups that they and their allies are the aggressors in the culture war. Indeed, they admit to being the "forces of change" and the "agents of progress." They proudly want to rewrite tradition and overturn laws. But whenever they're challenged democratically and peaceably, they instantly complain of being victims of entrenched bigots, even as they adopt the very tactics they abhor.

My own view is that gay marriage is likely inevitable and won't be nearly the disaster many of my fellow conservatives fear it will be. But the scorched-earth campaign to victory pushed by gay-marriage advocates may well be disastrous, and "liberals" should be ashamed for countenancing it.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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No disaster pending
The homosexual militant scorched earth policy has awakened a significant portion of society against homosexual mariage.

No society in history has ever validated homosexual marriage as a societal norm.

Man and woman were created. For each other.

Good Article,Jonah
The left know who to intimidate. Who will not fight back. They are low-life cowards. They would never protest a mosque or a black church. They would not be met with kindness.

If they win this fight by protest,it will not be the end. Just like in the sixties and seventies,they will demand everything they want. And probably get it.

Lines are being more clearly drawn
There ALWAYS HAS BEEN a battle between good and evil. Take a stand! Marraige is about raising a family, not "licensed" companionship.

Classic Projection
The Left seems to project on others who THEY actually are.

They cry oppression, yet that's what they mete out.
They cry censorship, yet they are for the "fairness" doctrine.
They demand freedom of choice, yet they deny that for others.
They demand tolerance, yet are the least tolerant themselves.

Would that Republicans in power called liberals on their obvious double standard. But Republicans are notoriously cowardly in the face of the Left's attacks. We need courageous Conservatives.
***
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/we-demand-true-conserva tive-leadership.html

I am a mormon today
To my Mormon friends, I decided to be a Mormon today and fight with you the bigotry and intolerance coming from the homosexual brownshirts and its accomplices, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, CNN and other totalitarian groups, including the ACLU, the champion of fascism.

I am an evangelical Christian, and I am not here to discuss theological arguments, I am here to tell my fellow Mormons that you are not alone.

That when they attack you, they attack me too. That no matter how much lies, insults, and intimidation they are doing, never give up. Do not be afraid, stand on your grounds and live your faith with courage.

Be aware that the Lord God is with you and He will never allow that the forces of evil embodied in the actions of these disgusting individuals triumph over His people.

Marriage is between a man and a woman, to say that marriage is between “a man and a man” and “a woman and a woman” is a joke and should be rejected in the name of decency, nature, survival, and God.

Just the start
Remember when the Clinton administration tried to prosecute opponents of public-housing projects for "hate speech"? Don't believe for a second that the Democratic Party or the Left in general has grown more tolerant of dissent in the last few years. We can expect zealots in Obama's IRS to audit the LDS church and individual members, to say nothing of other denominations out of favor. And it would be no marvel if the Justice Department began monitoring pulpits for heterodoxy, as in Europe and Canada.

Do not be quick to condemn
I am a Mormon. I find the LDS church's position on gay marriage to be odd. Odd, considering our unique history. We practiced polygamy (plural marriage)for many years. Joseph Smith had 300 wives, including those who married our prophet posthumously. (yes,posthumously). Brigham Young had 27 wives. I believe all were female.

Let us step back, and consider our own history, before we condemn those with beliefs different than our own.

"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Those who like to...
...turn the other cheek will soon run out of cheeks to turn.When people wish to debate you on your political beliefs,debate them back.When they wish to physically confront you,physically confront them back.If you refuse to do so,be prepared to see your churches,mosques,and temples burn.You may rule in the next life but don't expect to rule in this one.

Fear of physical violence is the greatest deterrent to in your face confrontation. That is why these church and temple violaters continue to perform their
demonstrations.It is pain free and bloodless for them to do so.

Speak as softly as you like,but always carry a big stick!

My Advice
Bullies attack the weak. They will never confront an equal or a superior. This is true of America's domestic enemies: democrats, sexual deviants, the media, professors, and hollywood elites.

I don't recall any reports of Prop 8 opponents invading Nation of Islam mosques or the streets of Compton. Blacks in California overwhelmingly opposed rights for perverts. Why weren't they targeted? Ponder this for a bit.

Mormons, Christians in general, and the GOP will always be victims of abuse until they accept the ugly truth that war sometimes is the answer. Insults unanswered invite more insults.

Here's my advice to them. The next time you're attacked, respond with ruthless violence. Use the media like Al Queda does. Let the images of beaten bodies of pervert invaders be broadcast on the nightly news. Sure, there will be outrage and protests. But don't back down. Show resolve and let the enemies of our people see that you are willing to use such force again and that you will not be deterred by the injured sensibilites of the Left.

The Viet Cong and Al Queda have shown us that our government and our people are no match for true determination.

And our "brave" domestic enemies will reassess their tactics of offending those who have the guts to do whatever is necessary to defend themselves. I promise you.

Hard numbers
Here are some actual donation numbers, courtesy of the LA Times:

In State Donations for YES: 25,388,955
Out of State for YES: 10,733,582

In State Donations for NO: 26,464,589
Out of State for NO: 11,968,285

So the bottom line is that MORE money was raised for No on 8--in support of gay marriage--both IN state and OUT of state AND overall. The gay marriage activists outspent the Yes on 8 people both IN STATE and OUT OF STATE, and still lost. But somehow, it's still the out of state Mormons' fault in their minds.

Why let numbers, facts and logic interfere with what you "feel"...

We Do Not Forget The Persecuted
Nor do we forget those who have died that we might live. How can we persecute a child of God, who is lost, sick, tired and cold?

The Savior said that he did not come to condemn the world, but that we might have life that is more abundant. That should be the purpose for all of us that we all might have life that is more abundant.

How might we do that?
We find the answer in the Beatitudes, read them every day and you will not harbor the attitude of hate or resentment toward anyone. Matthew Chapter 5

Others who have fallen into error are admonished and encouraged in spirit and in truth. Who ever the Lord loves he will correct so that we may remove from our thorny nature one more beam and eventually that mote in our eye.

When we receive the remission of our transgressions, we are given a new spirit, where our heart is changes and we plead for mercy for the rest of humanity, because we do not wish others to suffer more because of their transgressions because the spirit of darkness and ignorance that leads them.

Ignorance of the law is a stumbling block, and for that reason, we fail to prosper. When we learn and subject ourselves to the law and our error is disclosed; we then may repent to be restored and made whole. This is made possible because of Christ’s infinite sacrifice.

Just the beginning
Jonah, you had me until the first sentence of the last paragraph. Gay marriage not the disaster conservatives think it will be!? Just look at your own example of what happened to eHarmony.com! Do you think for a moment that if gay marriage becomes univerally legal the "gay rights" activists won't then seek to use left-wing legislators and the courts to sanction churches who won't perform such marriages?

cema4by:quick to condemn
Do tell me how the number of wives that Joseph Smith had applies to the argument/comments here. You sir, are not a Mormon... People from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or LDS for short) have ALWAYS defined marriage as the union of a man with a woman. There is no misunderstanding whatsoever and if you were a practicing LDS, you would know beyond a shadow of doubt, because of the exhaustive records that have been kept since Joseph Smith began to organize 150 or so years ago.

In my opinion, the reason that Prop 8 failed to go in line with the gays is simply because of the massive black turnout, who at a 70/30 percentage seem to have the same value system and view of marriage that 99% of Christians everywhere have.

The gays are simply singling out the LDS church because it is a hell of a lot easier to picket the Church than to go into the south side of LA and yell at some blacks... (or is it really that the response they would get might be physically painful?)

The defiant same-sex sodomites

sure are creepy. These vicious, hateful, bigoted attacks disclose their true natures and their true agenda.

Good people everywhere, be aware of the nature of these defiant same-sex sodomites.

These creepy, defiant same-sex

sodomites' tactics are reminiscent of Hitler's Gestapo and Brown Shirts.

Mormons
I am neither Mormon nor a particularly strong ally to the LDS church. I have less-than-favorable opinions on their theology and founding leadership, and I am - putting it mildly - unlikely to convert any time soon.

With that having been said, I think such an attack on the LDS church is both disgusting and predictable. I may disagree with them theologically (how and why is utterly irrelevant to this discussion), but to be slandered in such a patently offensive way simply for political gain is undeserved by most anyone.

The reason I say it is predictable is that a great many people have similar fundamental disagreements with the LDS church as I do. We saw this among conservatives on this site when Mitt Romney was still in the running for the Presidential nomination. The gay privileges lobby knows that they are far more likely not to repel voters if they slander a small, unpopular religion than they would if they had made the commercial about Catholics or Evangelicals. There are a lot of Catholics in California who would have (rightly) been sufficiently offended by that ad -- had it been directed at them -- to vote for Prop 8. The same is true of Evangelicals. But since the Mormon population is very small in California (only half a million people and less than 2% of the population) not enough would be directly offended that would change their votes. Besides that, since being anti-Mormon is politically correct, offending non-Mormons with anti-Mormon attacks is much more difficult than it would be with, say, Jews or Muslims.

By the way...
... the gay privileges lobby does realize that their tactics mirror their portrayals of conservatives. They simply believe that they have the moral authority - under the dogma of Tolerance and Diversity - that makes their tactics valid and since Christians are, by definition, intolerant, any attack by Christians on gay privileges is to be ignored.

Bigotry
Religious bigotry is the highest form of patriotism.

Samuel
Agreed. Jonah is great but I couldn't disagree more that it won't be damaging. The left, with its most militant fringe, radical homosexuals, will stop at nothing to subvert the sanctity of marriage.

It's easy to say that it won't be damaging. After all, I personally will not be affected. But wait a generation with children growing up in gay homes, being more confused about sexuality, since it is a choice. And let's not forget the fact that marriage would be completely cheapened.


It's the new American way.
Thugs have perpetuated labor union movement for decades, and it seems the gays have picked up on the tactic. Obviously, it works because, as Jonah said, "gay marriage is likely inevitable".

If you can't get your way in congress, go to the courts. If that doesn't work, physically beat the daylights out of your opponents. Yeah, that's the ticket.

The Democrats know this, and they are glad.

As a country, down we go.

And btw: Does anyone even have to ask why gays didn't go after black churches? Get real.

mormons
First thing that jumped into my mind was all the times I was called a bigot by mormons because I didn't support liberal Romney. What goes around comes around I guess. I stand with the mormons though on gay marriage. Gay marriage won't be so bad? I guess legalized pedophilia won't be so bad either? That's the next step in this parade, and it's already started.

Romney
I seem to remember that when Mitt Romney was running for the Republican nomination there was a lot of talk that evangelicals wouldn't support him because they regarded him as a heretic.

JD's handsome son
I think you have it right. We have been trying for years to "win the hearts and minds". It's time we started REMOVING hearts and minds.

Marriage?
If US society chooses to honor same-sex commitments with the term "Marriage" and all the privileges that go with that (e.g., shared property, medical data, visitation rights, child custosy, adoption, and spousal benefits), why should other commitments be considered less worthy? Why is a consenting adult three-some or nine-some not just as valid? If there is no magic in the man-woman commitment, why is the two person arrangement so special? Why will COUPLES impose their archaic morality on committed quadples?

The man-woman commitment is the only two-person relationship that carries the possibility of lasting a lifetime AND bringing forth new life. For a child, having one dedicated male role model, and one dedicated female role model, is the superior way to grow up.

If US society wishes to deny that the man-woman marriage is superior to all other relationships, then let government get out of the business of defining marriage. Make a standard government form with a list of adult names to define the rows, and a list of privileges (sharing property, custody, pesonal data, etc.) to define the columns. Each individual can check the cells he or she (or whatever) wants to commit to whichever subset of the others. Make it cost $50 to get into, and $5000 to get out of. I expect dependent benefits will soon be a thing of the past.

I hope we do not have to take such measures. I hope marriages will stay as they are now, one man and one woman, but last longer - like a lifetime.

From ChristianityToday
"I think this is the ironic part, because everybody seems very content to work together on these issues of common values," said Mark DeMoss, an evangelical publicist and early supporter of Mitt Romney. "But the moment a Mormon man presented himself as a candidate for President, people said, 'That's a line we as evangelicals can't cross.' "

And that is sad.

lol
Michael, you are funny.

What do you think of the subject at hand? If you can stop watching those cult videos in the church basement long enough to formulate a coherent thought.

How about this one?
Did you see the political ad about the 2 faggots going to the lady's door and smacking her in the face? How about the diesel dykes that ripped all the shrubs out of the family's yard because they had a "Yes" on Prop 8 sign?
Pretty disgusting situations aren't they (incl the language)? How are these examples any different than what the No crowd played using fake Mormon missionairies? No difference!
They want tolerance but won't permit any themselves. Marriage is between a Man & a Woman - Period!

It May Be An Needed Object Lesson
The opposition is mounting, because the sleeping giant is awakening. More people are aware of their agenda and the fallout which is obvious.

The fact is that good people have opened up their hearts to be tolerant, which does not mean acceptance. The homosexual agenda is to change the moral footprint through behavioral science to condition the young, so now teachers are targeting 16 year olds and younger, in schools and in free conferences, while they hide the full agenda. They will achieve that goal if we ignore the truth and the tactics they are using.

Go Here http://townhall.com/columnists/SteveChapman/2008/11/30/gay _adoption_the_real_agenda

You will be changed by the exchange. It is humbling, enraging, and positively thought provoking. You well know the vital truths and be able to see the world with new eyes.

We are the victims of a huge Behavioral Modification experiment and the fallout is just becoming obvious. Peace is a lost cause if we allow ignorance to linger. The solution is, knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the psychology they are using, from every corner of the available social human communication and entertainment interface.

We cannot win if we ignore the advanced, subliminal tools what are being used at the ignorance of family, where there is family, but they have free reign over unsupervised idle youth. They use methods that lead to compulsive addictive behaviors that we witnessed in the actions after Prop-8 won the support it needed. They surround church, temples; destroying private property, leaving human waste a church entrances; Intimidating businesses etc., because they have become as they can only be, unrestrained in their public life because they have no restraint in their private life.

When we fail to tame and train our nature, we become less than the brute beasts; more cruel, perverse and cunning, because of the higher intelligence, but without moral, spiritual and ethical restraint.

the
The author of this article is taking a few isolated anectodal cases of gays or their straight allies behaving badly and smearing the entire gay community and gay rights movemment based on these few bad apples.

Shame on him.

Most of the protests, marches, and vigils have been peaceful.

Over 100,000 people have marched for gay marriage and gay rights and everyone knows that the overwhelming majority have been peaceful.

Jonah is just doing the "fear and smear" routine which is so typical of the intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt right wingers.

Have you read 365gay.com, lately?
Michael
Location: KY
Reply # 30
Date: Dec 3, 2008 - 10:58 AM EST Subject: the
The author of this article is taking a few isolated anectodal cases of gays or their straight allies behaving badly and smearing the entire gay community and gay rights movemment based on these few bad apples.

Shame on him.

Most of the protests, marches, and vigils have been peaceful.

Over 100,000 people have marched for gay marriage and gay rights and everyone knows that the overwhelming majority have been peaceful.

Jonah is just doing the "fear and smear" routine which is so typical of the intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt right wingers.

The Homosexual Agenda
Wasn't it just last month that a lesbian teacher took some of her class on a field trip? She was exchanging vows with her paramour at City Hall and brought some of the little ones to watch it.

In Georgia schools,parents must sign for kids to leave school,so if the parents did sign a release,they are to blame also.Indoctrination starts at an early age.

Sanctity of Marriage?
Think about it, folks! The odds of divorce in "traditional marriages" are nearly 50%...so the much touted "sanctity" of such marriage is a farce. I'll grant that certain marriages are more likely to endure... including those with a higher level of education and income, family history, having children after twenty-five, etc. Granted, also, that religious affiliation improves the odds...but I spent my life in the church and know dozens of couples who have been divorced [some more than once].

I urge gay marriage opponents to spend less time demonizing committed gay couples...and more of their time "sanctifying" their own "traditional" marriages. I'm no fan of the stereotype gay lifestyle, but I find the superstition-infused component of religion equally repugnant. I suggest to both camps "don't ask, don't tell"...and if you'll stay out of my face, I'll stay out of yours.

Jim-Too

Manuel
I'm with you. I would never consider converting to Mormonism-their theology, to put it mildly, is not orthdox in the least.

That said, the larger picture is, if these maniacs can intimidate the Mormons, how long before they go after the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Catholics? As another poster has mentioned, it's interesting how the maniacs will not take on the mosques, isn't it?

If we don't help each other and stand together against these crazies, we will surely fall together. Eventually.

DHulme: I'm not being snarky, but how does it feel to be tarred with the GBA brush? We pro-lifers have had to deal with it for years, and in spite of our condemnation of those who bombed abortion mills or committed other acts which 99.9% of us would never even contemplate, the perception remains that we are a bunch of wild-eyed, Bible-thumping, bomb-wielding Nazis. One realizes of course that every movement has its fringe elements, the gays being no exception, but where are the leaders of the gay movement who decry these idiots? We have yet to hear from them.

Jim

If you ordered a Wii and got an Atari instead - you'd be ok with that, right?

No, despite surface similarities (they're both game systems, you can have fun on both, they might even both have little buttons that light up and look pretty!) -- they are not the same thing, and you'd be understandably angry. But the guys who make the Wii would be ESPECIALLY mad and go after the rat who was selling fakes under their name. They'd be right to do so.

We don't want America to be "sold" on the idea that any relationship can be marriage (no matter what surface similarities they might have). They're not the same - they shouldn't be called the same thing. Words matter.


By the way - Michael in KY
LOL!
Where the heck did you "learn" your "facts?"
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried (did you try?)
You have been fed a boatload of utter rubbish - and now you're feeding it to others.

Do some homework!


Tolerance Classes

We have parenting classes.

Anger management classes.

Domestic abuse classes.

Perhaps we could have "Tolerance Classes" for Homesexuals who attack those they disagree with.

I had no idea
that the Mormon church was so all powerful. Wow...what else have I missed.?

oh ta
Apparently, the defamation, libel and slander that's followed gay people for centuries doesn't concern Mr. Goldberg.
The response from gay people hasn't and never will equal how THEY have been responded to by heterosexuals at large.
Goldberg and most conservative media has exaggerated how gay people and their supporters have responded to the passage of this amendment.
And the tactics used to make that happen.

What about BEFORE the passage? What about BEFORE what happened in 2000 or in any other state?

When gay soldiers were being discharged, or gay parents were losing their children or gay people were and still are literally being lynched...did Goldberg care then?
Did TH?
Anyone?

All things considered...ALL things, gay people have been considerably patient and restrained.
Trying to justify that they DESERVE any of what's happened to them, is't even a five dollar question.

How cowardly it is to assume, that in their shoes, you wouldn't do the same thing?

Indeed...it doesn't require gay person doing anything but trying to do what they SHOULD, like marry, adopt a child, serve the country and God...for the majority here to respond in ways that are mind boggling in cruelty and insane contradiction.
As it happens, Prop 8 had direct affect on gay couples and their families.
Before the amendment passed, there was no negative direct affect on anyone to justify it.
And those here not knowing the difference, is unforgivable.

innate
Someone said when was it found that homosexuality was innate....

Homosexuality and the amygdala...

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains- structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?feedId=onlin e-news_rss20

Homosexuality and the commissure...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=4 9673

Homosexuality and the hypothalamus..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n9_v140/ai_1 1315232


Homosexual sheep have the same differences in hypothalamus that homosexual humans have...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3008-homosexuality-is -biological-suggests-gay-sheep-study.html

Homosexuality and Twins....

http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html

Homosexuality and X-Chromosome...

http://general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/1993/80 6/1

Homosexuality and Birth Order...

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20060626/birth- order-may-affect-homosexuality

Homosexuality and the Animal Kingdom...

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Homosexuality, fruit flies, genetics, and brain hormones….

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210094541.h tm


Let Me Thank You and Share.
"Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers."

I do not see that as a sin. If it is I am sorry, but I did not know there is a law against believing we are all God's children.

you wrote:
"Mormons believe in another book that details Jesus visiting Native Americans"

Ezekiel 37:16 - 17
16 ...take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah... then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The Bible is the stick of Judah
The Book of Mormon is the Stick of Joseph

"Articles of Faith 1:8
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

"Articles of Faith 1:11
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Be true to the faith that your fathers have given you. I would have it no other way. And be thankful you live in America where you are not hindered to worship according conscience we do well.

I ask that you permit others who are honest, sincere and devoted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, to worship Him according to their understanding. To love the Lord our God with all our heart, might, mind and strength, and to love neighbors as we love ourselves.

I am a Mormon, I believe in Christ, as Lord and king. He is my Redeemer and with joy expect He too is yours.

God Bless you and thanks

du
Gay civil rights are intact. Nothing has changed in that respect.

Prop 8 did not ban anything. It defined marriage as between one man and one woman.

The Mormon war will be interesting
The EF Biblicals (Evangelical Fundamentalists)have a new ally, The Latter Day Saints. I can hardly wait for the gut slashing religious war to come.

The conservative movement of Barry Goldwater sold its soul to the EFs for political power and will be a foot note in history. The LDS have historically avoided mainstream confrontation out of fear of retaliation. Now they are suffering economic retaliation and are whining about persecution. If you can't stand the heat...

If you want to make your religious faith law, beware of a negative reaction.

hillplus
Hillplus, you are lying and you know it.

Prop 8 took away the pre-existing right of gay marriage. The CA Supreme Court had ruled that gay marriage was both a constitutional and a civil right.

18,000 gay couples then got married.

Prop 8 took away that right and if it is deemed retroactive then it will nullify those 18,000 marriages.

The Arkansas amendment banned gay couples from adopting and taking foster children. If it is retroactive then some couples may actually lose their children.

The Florida amendment banned gay marriage and domestic partnership.

Why do you waste time lying about this?

Bigotry
Reading Goldberg and these comments, its amazing to see the blatant bigotry of the homophobes who try to invoke religion and the American flag to justify their bigotry. Every citizen, even ones you don't like, are entitled to the equal rights and privileges that all citizens enjoy. That is an American value that trumps any of your bigoted values. If citizens can marry, you cannot deny other citizens that same right. No amount of bible thumping will change that.

It's also amusing to see how homophobes who practice their bigotry now rail against the "tactics" of their victims in demanding full and equal rights. I bet back in the 1950s you folks would have applied this same logic to the civil rights "agenda" of African Americans. Also, for the bible thumpers, tell me where Jesus said its ok to be a bigot against His other children, the gays. No Old Testament stuff, just point to me Jesus. (And not the Mormon Jesus, either.)

gay rights
During the Inquisition some homosexuals were burned at the stake.

During the Holocaust- 50,000 homosexuals were rounded up and at least 10,000 were slaughtered.

During colonial America, gay men were castrated and lesbian women had part of their noses removed as punishment for being homosexual.

There was a time in American where homosexuality was considered a mental disorder (many gays were forcefully institutionalized and abused with lobotomies or electro-shock therapy), gay sex was illegal, and in 1986 the Supreme Court ruled that gays did not have a right to privacy. Police could go into gays homes and if they were in bed with their lovers they could arrest them for sodomy.

As recent as the 70s-- gay teachers could be fired just for being gay.

Even Lou Dobbs admits that most hate crimes are committed against gays and lesbians.

What about Lawrence King, a gay 8th grader that was shot in the head twice and killed by a classmate just because he was gay?

Gay kids are bullied, attacked, and ridiculed all the time in our public schools and the teachers allow it.

Many Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa make being gay a criminal act and even exectute them.

You can use google images and see pictures of gay teenage boys hanging dead from nooses in Iran because they execute them.

In Nigeria, it is not only against the law to be gay but it is even against the law to advocate for gay rights.

So don't lie and say that gays don't have a history of being persecuted or that theirs is not a civil rights movement.


Be Thankful To Live In America
du
Location: CA
Reply # 39
Date: Dec 3, 2008 - 12:04 PM EST Subject: oh ta----
Just think, if it was not for your mother, and father, where would you be?

The norm is the ideal, not the compromise. It is true that because of all the mental pollution that the youth experience they can become confused. However, concerning the gay agenda

DESENSATIZE - JAM - CONVERT

I am very familiar with behavioral modification and how it works, subliminally to alter attitudes, disposition and behavior. It has been a favorite study for the past 40 years.

It is most easily achieved, the younger the are and that is the right of the mother and father to supervise to oversee and approve their education. Yet teachers and conferences are being held just to influence the youth through methods of behavioral modification.

This is working against your cause and you will be feeling worse, and I would hopw you all leave well enough alone.

The sleeping Giant is waking up, and though it may hurt us as well we can not tolerate, the desecration of marriage that was instituted by God over 6000 years ago, a religious ritual licensed by state, but of church and God.

Genesis 2:20 - 25)
20 … but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his WIFE, and were not ashamed.

Equal rights
legalbeagle wrote:
"Every citizen, even ones you don't like, are entitled to the equal rights and privileges that all citizens enjoy."

This is exactly the case currently. All citizens, including homosexuals, have the right to marry. They just don't have the right to marry in circumstances outside the law. There are restrictions on that right which apply to all people. No one can marry a sibling or, in many States, a first cousin. 30 States say that people of the same sex can't marry although most allow every conceivable privilege to same-sex couples as to married couples. The issue is not rights but approval. Sexual deviants want the law to proclaim that they are normal.

The article and facts
Although the Mormon Church did not actively donate money to the Yes on 8 cause, church members were asked to contribute and did so in large numbers. The % of Mormon contributors relative to the % of Mormons in the overall population was extrmely large. The No on 8 crowd simply pointed this out. The ad (which I saw on a website) simply pointed this out as well. It was not an attack on the Mormon Church. It simply told the truth about Mormon involvement in the fight to end marriage equality in CA. The Mormon Church wanted to take away marriage licences from gay couples who were legally married in CA after the SSC ruling last May. The ad was not meanspirited. While Black Christians and I am sure Muslims voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, I don't recall hearing, church leadership actively telling members to donate money to the cause as was the case with the Mormon Church. Thus the demonstrations (not attacks against) outside Mormon churches and not other churches or mosques.

Goldberg says:
"Traditional religion is the enemy anywhere it runs afoul of complete social acceptance of homosexuality."

That's right Goldberg - Religion will NEVER dictate how our society should be run. I just wonder how sanguine the right would be if California outlawed Christianity via Proposition 666 - I'd vote for it... You'd be howling like banchees....

Life time
In my lifetime I have only seen the LDS Church take a national political stand 3 times. The first was the ERA, which was eventually barely defeated. The second was Carter's ABM system that would have turned UT into a nuclear target. The third is opposition to gay marriage.

In some countries where marriage has been redefined to accomodate gay marriage, it is now illegal to say or write that homosexuality is a sin. In other words, the state is defining what doctrines religions can believe in and preach based on extentions of legalized gay marriage.

The gay marriage fight goes right to the heart of the state's ability to violate the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or adridging the freedom of speech, or the press...."

The gay marriage fight is partly over how the state will use gay marriage as a way to control the doctrines of various religions. All major denominations stand to lose as thier doctrines are modified for political correctness.

Gil says:
"Sexual deviants want the law to proclaim that they are normal."

So you'd advocate prison or punishment for hetrosexual oral and anal sex? Or sex outside of marriage? Or even sex between people of different races? All of these have been illegal in America at various times. As usual, the right treads a very dangerous line - because they won the day. next time it could be outlawing public displays of Christianity - or - and this would be awesome, churches losing their tax exempt status... TAKING rights from people - even if you desribe them as deviants (a term used by nazis and Stalinists to imprison their political rivals) can easily backfire.

And it just might...

Michael says:
"Many Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa make being gay a criminal act and even exectute them."

The Christian right is the flip side of the Fundy Islamic coin - if it were up the the Christlamics, Gays would be stoned in the courtyard....

Bigotry?
Bigotry

"intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views"

You all have the same rights that every American has:
To be a lawyer you need to pass the requirements
To be a doctor you have to follow protocol
To marry in a church or temple you need qualify by the standards of that church and under God.
To be healthy you need to follow health laws.

You are not respecting what others hold sacred, it is not mine, it is not yours, as God requires us to marry, a companion of the opposite sex for that purpose of raising children unto the Lord, and a mighty nation, true, chaste, benevolent and in doing good in His holy Kingdom

You can not survive outside the heterosexual community alone on the desert island, you need us more than we need you, but we have taken heart, even to choose for yourselves without hindrance or interference but leave God’s children alone, so that the can worship the Lord their God.

So, have your civil unions, no complications, no children or offspring of your own, or adoptions, because that is your choice.

"Reap we do all that we sow; virtue to virtue and corruption to corruption."

du wrote
"Apparently, the defamation, libel and slander that's followed gay people for centuries doesn't concern Mr. Goldberg."

Apparently, the defamation, libel, slander and murders of Christians for following their beliefs doesn't concern du. Many of Christs apostles and disciples met violent deaths for their beliefs. Today, in parts of the world Christians are being beaten to death for commiting the crime of believing in Christ.

So, du, how is it exactly that you justify attacking Christians, vandalizing their property etc by gay activists? Do you think that discrimination against gays is going to disappear by attacking another persecuted group?

Try this one, Michael.
The medical consequences of homosexuality.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/medconsequences.html

Homosexuality is an aberrant condition that nature and biology apparently finds repugnant.

There is definately
a concerted effort one could say an agenda to norm homosexuality and conversely ostracize religious people for their beliefs.

I never cared one way or another about homosexuality but I'm really angry that there is a definate indoctrination agenda going on in the schools and in workplaces but most egregiously the media.

I'd say 30 to 50 percent of contemporary romance books now throw in a gay character -- that is not really part of the plot -- and inevitably they make their token or cameo appearance to show us that they are wonderful in every way and one-dimensional. And in about 10 to 15 percent of these books the reader is treated to a short lecture in tolerance.

It's driving me nuts -- when I see it in a book I choose not to buy/read the author again. I read romance books for light entertainment not to be lectured to by the authors for no plot purpose.

Stand Together!
As an Evangelical Christian I don't believe that Mormons are truly Christians -- I consider them a heretic sect. But I STRONGLY believe that they have the right to those beliefs that I consider false.

It it frightening how the left-liberal, militant secularists are attempting to stamp out the First Amendment and wipe out Freedom of Religion.

Its frightening that so many people who are completely incapable of accepting the idea that people's beliefs affect their actions and that the First Amendment applies to all have gotten into such positions of influence.

Christians whether Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox, Muslims, Wiccans, Pagans, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Baha'i, and other believers of every faith should stand in solidarity with the Mormons in recognition that to restrict on the ability of any kind of religious believers to speak about and act on their beliefs is to restrict the ability of ALL BELIEVERS likewise.

We who believe need to place ourselves as a unified wall between the Mormons and those who are using violence and intimidation against those who dared to publicly speak and act on the beliefs they hold.

And it wouldn't hurt if, in defense of the First Amendment, we remember that both the Second Amendment and most religions allow us to take up arms against those who have act violently against us.

Hey Mikey-
the CA Supreme Court is not authorized to write Constitutional law.
The only legal route to changing the Constitution in CA was followed to the letter with Prop.8.
A pre-existing right to same sex marriage is not, was not, and will not be assumed to be constitutional in CA.
Get over yourself.

Traditional Marriage Not Political
The traditional Marriage is not a political issue, and for that reason the Mormon church was allowed to help protect the sanctity of marriage. Others that are political issues we as members choose according to the party or candidate we feel will serve best.

My brother voted for Mike Huckabee against my wishes but I respect my brothers choice.

"Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom, but with all thy getting get understanding." Proverbs

Mother of 4
You are absolutely right. Ministers have been imprisoned in other Western countries for preaching the Bible -- the Bible is now hate speech.

That is where this is heading. And the schools will be forced to teach homosexuality and homosexual marriage as ok against parents wishes. Then we will see states denying parents the right to remove their children from public education as happens in Germany.

And as far-fetched as this may sound to some -- observant Christians and other religious people could ultimately be denied custody of their own children for teaching hate -- the Bible.

Mother of 4
What violence and intimidation against the Mormon Church? The ad Jonas boy talks about merely states the truth. The Mormon Church is proud of its work to take away rights from 8% of the population. A peaceful protest outside a Mormon temple is not violence and intimidation. The only violence and intimidation I see is coming from you and your bigoted cohorts who would love to find a final solution for all homosexuals. And one more thing, this sudden love affair with Muslims (devil worshippers)on the part of those opposed to marriage equality cracks me up. Christians cannot practice their religion in many Muslim countries. We don't need a Taliban in this great land of ours. God Bless the US - the home of the free.

More on the indoctrination push
Has anyone noticed that the news always finds the most attractive or sympathetic gay couple to promote gay marriage, but never discuss the rampant promiscuity and disease in the gay male community or show what goes on in public at gay parades and festivals?

The videos are on the Web I saw men engage in anonymous sex with strangers, masturbate, defecate upon, and urinate on each other while walking around nude all on public streets -- the police did nothing!

Get real James
James says:

The only violence and intimidation I see is coming from you and your bigoted cohorts who would love to find a final solution for all homosexuals.

If they ever find a gay gene be very afraid because it will be all your so-called friends on the left who will be testing for the gene and aborting their children who have it. It will be a world where the only people who allow gays to live will be conservative Christians and other religiously observant people.

Mother of 4
You identified yourself as an Evangelical Christian. I have attended various evangelical churches and have heard differences in beliefs between different pastors, so I am sure that we agree on many religious doctrines but probably disagree on others. However, I strongly agree with your main point of your last post. Christians uniting in support of their freedom of religion can only benefit this country.

Where will it stop?
The First Amendment’s freedom of religion and freedom of speech are as much at risk of ‘reinterpretation’ as the Second Amendment.

Samuel (#12) has it exactly right. Once gays can be legally married by the state, it will not be long before churches will be forced under equal rights laws to perform marriages. There are precedents…equal opportunity laws can force a church to hire a nonbeliever or to provide abortion services as part of an employee’s benefit package. Look at what’s happening to the pastor in Canada over his sermons. We need to fight EVERY thing that nibbles away OUR rights.

Let’s research the anti-Prop 8 web sites and shop at the boycotted businesses wherever possible. Send a letter of support to LDS.

LuLu I am very real
Accept the fact that homosexuals have existed since the beginiing of time and exist among all segments of the population today making up about 8% of the population. There are over 25 million gay people in this great land of ours. The Christian right has trouble accepting this. I don't belive in abortion (I am Catholic) but as a gay man I trust the political left more than political right whn it comes it comes to not being treated as a 2nd class citizen.

Confusion
Perhaps the Yes/No on 8 debate hinges on mere grammatical confusion. The gays wanted to be "forces of change" (a noun) and got thoroughly confused trying to "force" change (a verb) by rioting, vandalizing, intimidation, and forcing the resignation of a guy who had been totally accepting of the gay community, but who happened to be a Mormon. But, then again, perhaps not.

Dear James
A comment RE: your statement that "accept the fact that homosexuals have existed since the beginning of time and exist among all segments of the population today making up about 8% of the population:" the real figure is one to two percent. It's typical of a so-called "persecuted minority" to inflate its numbers. Nice try, though!

Fred
Yes, they should all be punished. I would have them bound and flogged, preferably with a 6-foot, hand-plaited, kangaroo-hide stock whip.

DJ
I suppose according to your logic that I have your permission to shoot the protestor blocking the entrance to a business owned by an alleged supporter of Prop 8. Even though you think violence would be warranted, I don't.

Now, if that protestor were threatening the life of a family member, that's a different story.

United We Stand Divided We Fall
This is an all out attack on religion in general, Mormons specifically.

The sad fact of the matter is that radical leftists and religious conservatives have drank out of the same fountain to bash the mormons this year.

The republican primaries should have been about policy, instead, it was about Mitt Romney's "non Christian,heretic, faith".

This prop 8 stuff is an attack on any religious person as much as it is an attack on the Mormons.


If you are religious, you need consider the big picture. You need to recognize your sources for bashing the faith of others for what they are.

You need to unite with all people of faith, not just those of your own.

"America, America, God shed thy grace on thee, and crown thy good whith brotherhood, thy liberty in law."









hey Don..
I have always, from the beginning said that I didn't agree with what A FEW gay people did in response to Prop. 8 passing.
I haven't even agreed with some of the frivolous lawsuits, such as against eHarmony or a wedding photog. I said so, right HERE in TH.

Considering the chronic and constant defamation of gay people in TH. Isolated incidents against heterosexual are blown out of proportion, but the very REAL violence, professional compromise and destruction of property that occurs against gay people is minimized or there is no sympathy that gay people are portrayed or see themselves as victims.
YOu know it, I know it and don't deny it or make this about me condoning anything.

What's at issue is Mormons and others getting a tiny taste of what THEY DISH OUT.
Welcome TO THE CLUB.
It's so contradictory to want or expect MORE sympathy from a minority of people who certainly get none here.

Conservative religious communities have done the most damage to gay people for centuries.
And without questioning whether it's justified or acknowledging that damage is done.

Why WOULDN'T gay people be wary, or reject right BACK?
The amendment has DIRECT affect on THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people.
Can anyone say that marriage equality did, and in the negative?

I doubt it.

Is
"If they ever find a gay gene be very afraid because it will be all your so-called friends on the left who will be testing for the gene and aborting their children who have it. It will be a world where the only people who allow gays to live will be conservative Christians and other religiously observant people. "

Is that why Christians and Muslims in the Middle East and Africa imprison and execute gays?

Religious people and organizations have persecuted gays for centuries. I doubt that they will ever be the ones protecting gays.

Robert F. Lee
What makes you such an expert on homosexuality? How many gay friends/acquaintances do you have? As an unscientific sample, I graduated from an all boys Catholic HS with a class of 115 or so. Including myself, I know of 8 guys and perhap as many as 10 from the class who are hmosexual. Not scientific by any means but interesting. One had to be smart (pass a special test) to get into the school so perhaps we are over represented among the smarter segments of the population. I stick with my 8%ish #. But whejter it is 2% or 20% or somewhere in between, discrimination against gay people is wrong and should not be tolerated.

Stand together? Suuure
>As an Evangelical Christian I don't believe that Mormons are truly Christians -- I consider them a heretic sect.<

Here's a good way to get people to stand together - start by insulting their beliefs. Mormons have been persecuted since their inception, and even today have to endure rude and violence threatening 'evangelicals' twice year during general conference in Salt Lake.

> During Romney's candidacy, Robert Jeffress, pastor at the First Baptist Church of Dallas, told his congregants that they should prefer Christian candidates to Mormon candidates, but he is grateful for Mormon involvement in helping pass Proposition 8.

"I think there has been a strain in the relationship with Mormons, but I think Christians need to understand that Mormonism is not Christianity," Jeffress said. "The differences between Mormonism and Christianity aren't just minor theological differences that can be erased just because we agree on moral issues."<

Ever heard of Mormons standing across the street from a Baptist convention calling the attendees 'devil worshippers' and the like?

Spare me the Stand together mantra. You only embarrass yourself.

selective outrage
btw...this couple, the Schumachers who kept a teen boy (a runaway from his foster home) captive in their home.
Where is the outrage? If they'd been a gay couple...you wouldn't have let up for YEARS on the torture of a child.

But since it's a heterosexual couple, the wife being a Girl Scout leader...I bet it's all going to go away very quickly what this couple did to this boy.

Indeed, it happens SO OFTEN...it wouldn't make the news.
But if gay people turn out to be actual pedophiles or murderers or abusers in some way, it's news because of RARITY.
Well?

Where is the outrage at all the children in foster care?
Who are abused and murdered by their own parents, or other caregivers?

Perhaps if gay couples didn't have to preoccupy themselves trying to keep the wolves at the door out to destroy THEIR family relationships, all of us could get a lot more important things done.

con't
It wouldn't be right or sensible for me to judge ALL heterosexual couples and parents by this example or the THOUSANDS of other bad parent or hetero couple examples.

So why does the majority here judge ALL gay people by much LESS?


I beg to differ
Pancho said "Spare me the Stand together mantra. You only embarrass yourself."

I was part of a coalition from numerous churches and non-religious groups who stood together to get Prop 8 passed so don't tell me that standing together can't be done. I don't care if some evangelicals have said stupid things about mormons or catholics, and I don't care that some mormons have said stupid things about other religions also. We stood togetherin CA.

Did you feel the same?
>I don't care if some evangelicals have said stupid things about mormons or catholics, and I don't care that some mormons have said stupid things about other religions also. We stood togetherin CA.<

I suppose than that you feel the same about Muslims. After all, we stood together with Muslims like Al-Maliki in Iraq, even though most conservative Americans thinks that their religion requires them to kill Westerners.

Everyone will get a turn
Many comments suggest that the left would NEVER use the exploitive tactics employed against Mormons on groups such has Jews, Catholics, and Evangelicals.

That is true TODAY.

Even in a column denouncing the bigotry of gays in slandering Mormons. . . dozens of commenter's have joined in with witless and uninformed comments --doing the same thing as did the gay lobby. The gay advocates didn't attack Mormons for some obtuse point of doctrine, it was explicitly for their's being a religious organization supportive of Proposition 8.

What many are failing to recognize, is that gay marriage is NOT the agenda of the LGBT lobby; it never has been. What is at issue is public acceptance of their chosen sexual lifestyle. What is sought is acknowledgement that being gay is normal. Whatever institutions need to be destroyed in order for them to gain that acceptance is a sacrifice THEY very willing to make.

Frankly, marriage is simply a target of opportunity in the much larger campaign to destroy religious based cultural opposition to homosexuality. Gay-marriage is merely a step in a broader progression for obtaining public acceptance.

A civil-union can be performed by a local government official, irrespect of the sexual orientation of the applicants. The institution of marriage carries with it a connotation more than a sanctioned living arrangement, it carries also historical religious and cultural meanings not conferred elsewhere.

Make no mistake, as long an organized religion declares homosexual behavior to be sinful practice, that religion remains an inherent enemy to all gay-advocacy.

TODAY, the fight is directed at Mormons . . . .

outrage rant
Du, do you have any prescription you could take to calm down and return to rational thought. You cite a news story which you allege is evidence of child abuse by a heterosexual couple. You then continue to claim that child abuse by heterosexuals is so common that it never makes the news. It only gets on the news if a gay person is involved. You also insinuate that child abuse is acceptable to everyone here unless a homosexual is involved. Please, return to reality.

I'm not sure how far that news spread, but the station I was watching had about ten minutes on the story with as many details as they had regarding who was involved and the investigation. It was obvious from the teenagers condition that he had been severely abused but there was no evidence yet as to how it took place or who had done it. They arrested the couple where the boy had been staying and were searching for the boys aunt in connection with the crime. Not once in the coverage I watched did they mention the sexual orientation of anyone involved in the investigation. Perhaps they cover the news differently where you live.

Pancho
I'm not sure I follow what point you are trying to make but, yes, there were Muslims who also supported Prop 8 and I am grateful for their support.

Liberals don't get us
Liberals apparently assume that social conservatives are intolerant of other people's faiths, and that by associating the pro-prop-8 forces with Mormons that it would drive a wedge in the movement.

Fortunately, we are far more tolerant than most liberals. I am an Evangelical, and believe that the LDS church is a cult. But that doesn't mean that I hate Mormons, or that I would not stand up for their right to worship as they see fit.

Gaining Acceptance for Gays
If anyone wants to gain acceptance, as the gays say they do, you have to work to convince the people that you are worthy of that acceptance. I don't see any signs of it here or on the news. Instead it is a case of: "You HAVE to accept us because we can find some judge who says so."

Do I care what a judge says in such a situation? Not a bit. If anything, I want that judge removed, whether he is talking about gay acceptance or chicken acceptance. That isn't his job and by trying use his job to do it, he is using his position outside of his boundaries. So he should be dismissed since he apparently doesn't know what his job is.

If you want to gain my (or others acceptance) for ANYTHING you have to convince me that you are worthy of that acceptance. Staging some of the actions listed above is only going to convince me that you don't deserve any acceptance! So start thinking, people!

Pancho
"Spare me the Stand together mantra. You only embarrass yourself. "

I understand your frustration with some unfairness in parts of evangelical community. You are preaching to the choir. (I'm a Mormon.) That said, I have one word for you: irrelevant. Look, the stakes are way too high on this gay marriage issue for us to nurse bitterness over our disagreements with those who are willing to stand with us on this important issue.

You may not like what I am about to say, but the fact is that sometimes you just have to take it. Remember that forgiveness is not only an attribute and gift of Christ, it is an attribute that also helps us to keep our eyes on what is really important. Sometimes we have to turn the other cheek just to keep our perspective. In the end, the outcome of the war is more important than on how a little skirmish turns out.

If you are feeling wound up and maybe a little bitter (Been there, done that.), perhaps it would be good to put down the keyboard for a month and unwind. Then come back a bit more refreshed. Do that, read the scriptures, pray, go to the temple, and you'll be in good shape. You can take it a lot better if you have a little help from above.

MINORITIES RAISING CAIN AGAIN
When minorities make noise, squawk, and protest, their demands, if loud and obnoxious enough, get met by the government over and over again. Since this has mostly been the case, expect the noisiest, most annoying and demanding groups to get their way. It's sad, but true. I wish it wasn't so.

MORMONS
For any detractors of Mormons, I recommend watching their TV channel, reading some of their books...very, very interesting. You may not agree with their theology, but it makes for fascinating reading. Especially the accounts of Joseph Smith. Also, if interested in tracing your family history, they are a huge help.

Sodomizing America
By reading some posts, I found that some people can’t separate theology from social morality. At this point in history where militant homosexuals and anti-Christians groups embodied in the media, academia and politics are uniting efforts to change American society by destroying our Judeo-Christian values; we Christians and other people of faith must form a social and political front together and fight four our rights and the survival of our civilization. Theological differences between Mormons and other Christian denominations do not matter at this time.

The campaign of deceptiveness that homosexual zealots are disseminating through newspapers, TV, radio and government outlets must be challenged and defeated.

This is about civil rights, yes, but civil rights for the people of faith. It is Christians, who are being persecuted, silenced and ridiculed for teaching the bible and preach against this unhealthy and sinful behavior of homosexuality. Ultimately, this is about freedom of religion. Just read the major newspapers and mainstream cable networks. All of them portray homosexuals like victims and Christians like intolerant bigots.

The homosexual mob, along with these cheap politicians like Arnold and the city of Los Angeles, are desecrating the rights of Christians by forcing them to accept a style of life that goes against their conscience and religious convictions. This is not new, the book of Acts registers that the first Christians were thrown in jail for preaching the salvation in Christ only and were told not to preach again the message. The same pattern is happening right now.

The reason we have freedom of speech, religion and press is because our forefathers understood that liberty is born out of the recognition of God, the God of the bible. Once God is taken away from our civil government forever, under the lie of “separation of church and state,” then the collapse of America is a matter of time.


What??
>the first Christians were thrown in jail for preaching the salvation in Christ only and were told not to preach again the message. The same pattern is happening right now.<

Wow, making things up out of thin air. Please direct us to the jail sentences being passed out for preaching the salvation of Christ.

like du
Like du states, its been on the news recently about a white straight couple who kidnapped a black teen male and tortured him.

Where are the articles at Town Hall generalizing this straight couple to all straight people??

After all thats what this site does to gays. They take isolated cases of gay individuals being bad and try to slander all gays by falsely inferring that they are all that way.

Oops, you made just one mistake.
Johah, I've always respected your writings and I agree 99% here. You only blew it when you said "My own view is that gay marriage is likely inevitable and won't be nearly the disaster many of my fellow conservatives fear it will be." We conservatives need to quit retreating. It does make a difference - a very real difference in free speech, what is taught in the schools, as well as religious freedom.

WV News
So this story made the news clear out in West Virginia? Du said child abuse only gets in the news if there is a gay involved. The news coverage I have heard hasn't mentioned anyones sexual orientation. What are they saying back in WV? Out here there have been numerous gay rights leaders angrily denouncing all who oppose them as hateful bigots. The news has shown that the illegal actions of numerous people opposed to Prop 8 is being encouraged by some of the organizers of the campaign against Prop 8. Could you give me a single example of any of the leaders who supported Prop 8 that have supported the kidnap and abuse of a black teenager? ( or a white or purple one for that matter?)

Just think
In a decade or so? Maybe two at the outside? This is going to seem hilarious. Protestant Christianity is trending to hit minority status next year, with barely 51% of Americans identifying themselves thusly currently. Catholicism's dropping. Atheism/agnosticism/"personal spirituality" are all trending up, especially amongst those under 30. We elected a president who belittled those who cling to guns and religion out of bitterness at their changing society.

It's morning in America.

Jay amd Manuel
Gay marriage is inevitable in this country. Just look at the demographics of the No on 8 Vote. If the CA SSC does not do its job and undo Prop 8, mariage equality will pass my proposition within the next 8 years. And Christianity will still exist in the is country as well. Heterosexual marriage will not suffer either. The % of gay people in the population will not change any as a result of marriage equality. All of the hysteria I see from the likes of you 2 and others here about Armageddon coming should marriage equality become legal in this great land of ours is laughable. But when I see the hatred towards all homosexuals (there must be 25 million of us here in the US) expressed in these threads I cannot laugh. It is sickening to see the hatred and bigotry harbored by the right wing nuts who take every TH article as gospel.

JAMES IN NY
WHO IS THE HATEFULL ONES?IT'S GUYS LIKE YOU JIMBO WHO DOESN'T KNOW RIGHT AND WRONG.IT'S RIGHT IN GODS BOOK,WE JUST TELL IT LIKE IT IS AND TWO MEN GETTING MARRIED IS NOT IN THERE!IF TWO GUYS WANT TO SLEEP TOGETHER,THEY DON'T NEED A RING TO PROVE IT.IT DOESN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE IT OUT!

If the CA SSC does not do its job?
Yeah! The hell with democracy! Legislate from the bench!

A couple of points
The use of constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage is one of the ways people are using the government to force their religious beliefs on everyone. Admit it, other than it "is against your religion" what negative consequences will it have? You know that allowing gays to marry will have no affect on "traditional" marriage. But this issue gets your religious foot in the political door and your holier-than-thou thumb on everyone's head.

Do American men and women have the same rights or not? If not then I say we limit a women's right to free speech as well as her right to marry a woman. Perhaps we should limit men's second amendment rights along with their right to marry a man.

Jim #32
"Think about it, folks! The odds of divorce in "traditional marriages" are nearly 50%..."

It was probably inevitable that this tired example of innumeracy, endlessly repeated by the press and by sites such as Infoplease, would turn up in this discussion. Once more from the top:

* The total of marriages in the United States in 2007 is restricted to marriages that began _in this country last year_.

* The total number of divorces in the United States in 2007 encompasses marriages performed _here and around the world through all of history_ that happened to end in this country last year.

* For the present purpose, "all of history" is probably no more than seven or eight decades. Still the number of marriages begun on earth during that period is much greater than the number begun in the United States last year. Immigration and other trends could cause the number of divorces in the United States in a given year to exceed the number of marriages. In this event, your formula would yield a "divorce rate" greater than 100 percent, which is clearly nonsensical.

* Comparing the two figures is therefore meaningless, as is measuring a child's growth on a trampoline.

Glad to be of service.


Goldberg is right
At least in saying that gay marriage is inevitable and it won't cause the destruction of society that the right-wing extremists claim.

As for the Mormons and anybody else using their religion to try to legislate other peoples lives - well, heck yeah, they are scum.

By the way, the white powder sent to the Mormons has NOT been linked to any gay group.

Don't worry, folks.
They can't intimidate the Mormons.

We're still tough.

We may not have the gonads our great-great grandparents had, when they trudged across the great plains and the rocky mountains pulling handcarts piled with what little they could salvage from homes burnt by their "Christian" neighbors.

But a few light-in-the-loafers musical theater majors are nothing to get worried about. This stuff they're doing: spray-painting meetinghouses, leaving feces at the doors? Theatrics combined with hysterics. You do what you know.

They just better watch their pansy arses when the shooting starts.

Come on over to Mountain Meadows, girls. We're waitin' for ya.

Oh, you're boycotting our state?

Boo hoo.

To Former-Rep:
Your post:

"The use of constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage is one of the ways people are using the government to force their religious beliefs on everyone. Admit it, other than it "is against your religion" what negative consequences will it have? You know that allowing gays to marry will have no affect on "traditional" marriage. But this issue gets your religious foot in the political door and your holier-than-thou thumb on everyone's head.

Do American men and women have the same rights or not? If not then I say we limit a women's right to free speech as well as her right to marry a woman. Perhaps we should limit men's second amendment rights along with their right to marry a man."

My answer:

Sure, let's put it to a vote.

just saying:
Mormons make up 2 percent of California's population yet contributed more than 50 percent of the funds for Prop 8.

Pancho,
That thing that flew by far over your head was my POINT.

To use the A-B-C language for you and others who are likewise incapable of reading more intricate writing, ...

Even though I don't agree with Mormon theology I support their RIGHT to believe their doctrine and to act in accordance with those beliefs.

ALL religious believers of ALL faiths should stand by the Mormons and defend that right against the rabid, secular activist who would strip that right from them.

actually
A True Christians (tm) would take a rabid activist to the nearest emergency medical center so that his or her rabies could be treated, thus alowing the True Christian to receive a double blessing of helping someone suffering from a fatal illness and watching a God-offending sinner suffer extreme pain.

Respectful Comments.....
As a Latter- Day- Saint I tip my hat to those who are wise enough to see that
this is just the beginning and the BIG PICTURE
will eventually be persecution to all churches that oppose gay marriage! In fact, a church in our general community was attacked (non Mormon)
Sooo we all are in this together..or we will lose the battle!
For those who say I don't agree with their doctrine that means we don't agree with ALL of yours either!
But let's keep united to beat this everytime
it comes up!
elvis

Educate, do not attack!
The intolerant displays of intolerance by those who have been billed as tolerant, have convinced many they have been lied to about ultimate objectives. So the next time someone drags out the discrimination, bias, partisan, bigot charge, may I suggest they get ready for someone to say, "oh, and you guys aren't?"
Credibility was lost after the Prop 8 vote. While I have no dog in this race, I do object to the tactics of victim-hood by those who have made victims of what they think is the most vulnerable. Had this been done to one of theirs, they would be howling loudly at the moon.
Now some will say these things about me because I have not just sat back & let them have their way. To them I say, do what you want.
However, neither group has the right to attack the other just because they disagree with each other. And using attack tactics has discredited you because you now use the tactics you have long accused others of using. But this time, there is video!

Extremists
It is NOT the "right wing" extremists who say no to Gay marriage. Stop attacking the very votes you need to get anything passed!
Those who voted in opposition came from "ALL" sides of the spectrum. Blaming one crowd is like attacking one because they are Gay. Its just as reprehensible & just as productive in solving the problems!
Right now its convinient to attack conservatives. Guess what guys, liberal Democrats also voted to oppose Gay marriage. So, when you attack, look also to the guy next door you "thought" was with you!!!
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