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Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
'No' To Obama's Experimental Government
by Jonah Goldberg
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On Sunday night, President-elect Barack Obama told "60 Minutes" that Franklin D. Roosevelt would be a model of sorts for him. "What you see in FDR that I hope my team can emulate is not always getting it right, but projecting a sense of confidence and a willingness to try things and experiment in order to get people working again."

This is a problematic standard. What do you want in a surgeon? One who "gets it right" or one who projects "a sense of confidence?" Ditto accountants, defense lawyers, mechanics and bomb-disposal technicians: cocky and self-assured, or gets it right?

Before you answer that, please ask yourself what your point of view on this question was during the eight years of the Bush administration.

In short, there can be a chasm between being right and merely appearing to be right. Why anyone stakes greater value on the appearance than reality is a mystery to me.

But as Obama clearly recognizes, that was a big part of the FDR magic. FDR came into office promising "bold, persistent experimentation" -- and delivered. Raymond Moley, an early member of FDR's "brain trust," saw the New Deal for what it was. "To look upon these programs as the result of a unified plan was to believe that the accumulation of stuffed snakes, baseball pictures, school flags, old tennis shoes, carpenter's tools, geometry books and chemistry sets in a boy's bedroom could have been put there by an interior decorator," Moley wrote later.

Yet Americans thought it was all part of a plan, even though experimentation and planning are in fact near opposites. Why? Because FDR always projected such confidence, even as he made things worse. But this isn't another column about how FDR prolonged the Depression. Been there, done that. I'd rather be forward-looking.

In fact, I want to be experimental, too. So here's my idea: Just stop.

Stop talking about bailouts and stimuli. Stop pondering ever more drastic action. Give it a rest. Let it be.

One of the main reasons there's all of this "money on the sidelines" out there among private investors is that Wall Street doesn't know what the government will do next. Will it bail out the auto industry? The insurance companies? Which taxes will go up? How far will interest rates go down? How long will the federal government own stakes in the banks? Will more stimulus checks go out? If so, how big will the deficit get?

Interventionists, bailout czars and "bold experimenters" in all parties claim to be like firefighters; they can't stop what they're doing until the fire is out. But this analogy only works if you understand the nature of the fire. If it's a credit crisis, that's one thing. If it's uncertainty, it's quite another.

And if the problem right now is uncertainty, then these aren't firefighters, they're arsonists.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson told Congress he'd spend his kitty of tax dollars on bad mortgage-backed securities. Instead, in the spirit of bold experimentation, he's spent much of it to date buying banks.

Obama insisted he had a specific plan for the economy -- but his plan seems to be to "project confidence."

The problem with this "In Obama We Trust" approach is that it makes private-sector decision-making very difficult. If your boss says he will lay off half his employees next month, but he doesn't know who yet, will you buy a new house this month?

In a time of stability and growth, government can afford bold, persistent experimentation. But in a time of uncertainty, the last thing it needs is more uncertainty. Yet Obama's confident pragmatism, like FDR's, is a threat to confidence where it matters -- among consumers, credit markets and investors.

Yes, letting GM go into bankruptcy would be scary. But a GM bailout merely kicks GM's problems down the road while spreading the fear about where Uncle Sam's big feet will land next. Besides, bankruptcy isn't the end of the world. It's the means by which bad companies restructure to fix themselves. Bailouts are the means by which governments subsidize bad companies.

The engine company in Washington has pumped more than a trillion dollars through the fire hose. It's time to turn off the spigot, not only to see where we are but to let the normal people start fixing things.

By all means, let's hope President Obama will project confidence. But maybe he should express less confidence in the government's ability to get people working again, and more in the ability of regular Americans to rise from the ashes of any hardship. In short, don't just do something, President Obama, stand there.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Good Job
Well put Mr. Goldberg and what needs to be said is quit the panicked decision making. The congress is just now waking up to the reality that the $700 billion they authorized wasn't used to buy toxic debt and yet still none of the doomsday scenario came true. What did come true was the Dow Jones falling like a rock so what did this bailout bill accomplish really? And no it is too late to stop Paulson from dealing it out however he sees fit. Time to do something and stand there.

No Big 3 Bailout!!
As I have stated before on various threads, I hold the Big 3 Companies, in combination with the UAW totally responsible for most of their problems.My Brother retired from Ford and died still refusing to accept that there isn't enough $ in the world for the Union to guarantee all the promised benefits he was to receive!!
Chapter 11OK!! I will call Byrd/Rockefeller to vote NO..Think that'll happen???

FDR?
There was news that BO was "channeling" with "honest Abe." Too honest for him, huh?

Sympathy for the Obama
I may be the only person on Earth, or the only being in the entire Milky Way, or in any dimension or time, that actually feels sorry for Obama. With his exemplary campaign, he has convinced nearly every human on this planet that he is going to save the universe. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people who are going to feel betrayed and deceived. He is going to be the victim of his own know-nothing, yet smooth talking success, a classic example of the bigger they are the harder they fall. Immediately after he won the election (but not too much during the campaign) he began prefacing his statements with things like "this won't be easy" and "it won't be done quickly" and "not in one year, maybe not even in one term". I give him credit for being shrewd enough to know he isn't going to 'change' anything, at least not for the better and it is impressive and sly how he has started his 2012 presidential campaign so early, on the night he won the election in fact. You can't get any earlier than that. He loves to campaign. It is about the only thing he has much experience in. In four years from now he can point to the fact that he said, "one term may not be enough". What the poor little twerp doesn't seem to realize is that people, especially Americans, want things to be perfect yesterday, not in four or eight years and if they don't get it... the sitting president is the obvious reason for their misery. He will fail because the promises he made are impossible to keep and many will loathe him for it. Ouch.

Monkey see, monkey do . . .
"In short, there can be a chasm between being right and merely appearing to be right. Why anyone stakes greater value on the appearance than reality is a mystery to me."

It is a cousin to narcissism --as is the willingness to experiment with others' lives. This President is an SOB.


Why Obama Can't Jump
Dear Mr. Goldberg,

Billy Hoyle said to Sidney Deane - (in "White Men Can't Jump") - "A black man would rather miss than look bad."

That pretty much sums up your column.

But you're right: bailouts and bold initiatives are like putting out a fire - (I further suggest that the methods they're proposing would be endorsed by Gulliver, and that other problems surely arise from those sorts of firefighting methods.)

But looking confident and actually having solutions is entirely different. As it SHOULD have been asked - (repeatedly) - in the election and in the primaries: WWOD? If not invade Iraq and depose Saddam Hussein, What Would Obama Do? WWOD?

My guess is that Obamessiah won't inspire confidence once he's actually made to answer non-multiple choice questions, and once he actually has to take a test that includes fill- in-the-blanks questions.

Perhaps he won't even look good while he misses the basket. Obama can't jump. WWOD.

It would be funny if....
it wasn't so sad. All those fools who answered surveys that Obama could fix the economy, but the investor class has voted with their stock and the Dow has been in free fall since Obama was elected. The market has spoken. As I said, funny if not sad, since all of us will have to bear the brunt of Obambi's inexperience, and projected confidence (wasn't he accused of being all style and no substance during the election? well, he just admitted it was true). Obambi's real message there is that he doesn't have a plan, didn't have a plan, and doesn't have a clue. I agree that when the American people began to see the chaos that ensues, they will turn on him. Obambi is a legend in his own mind, and apparently thinks his honeymoon period will last into another term. I would say that's putting the cart before the horse. Get to work and show us what you got. We already know you can yap off a telepromtper.

Emulate FDR policy?
I sure hope not. Recently, two UCLA economists poured over the dollar numbers and economic activity from 32-40 regarding FDR's public works projects he used to put people back to work.

Unequivocally, they submit he prolonged the Depression by 7 years.

The only thing that pulled out the U.S. out of Depression was World War II.

Obama, public works stimulus will be a total bust. Don't waste our money on it.

Another way to look at it
......is if Obama does take FDR's approach, economic stimulus in public works projects, he will be gone in four years.

Because the economy will remain totally stagnant or contract.


ON JOB TRAINING
Perhaps our future leader now has to learn the difference between delivering a good speech and delivering to the people of this nation. He has 8 weeks for a cram course. "What a tangle web we weave when we practice to deceive" should be the slogan for the Obama administration.

FDR Redux?
Thanks, Jonas, good advice for a rookie president who is probably too stupid to accept it.

What do you want to bet that Obama resurrects FDR's Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC)? Or creates his Civilian Security Corps, read Gestapo?

Let's all pray that the "solution" to the economy crash is not World War III.

PassOnTheLeft, you wrote...
"He will fail because the promises he made are impossible to keep and many will loathe him for it. Ouch."

I wish you were right about this, but sadly the Obamaphiles will continue to make excuses and give him a pass, just as their earlier brethren did for FDR. Goldberg has made an excellent analogy in that regard.

FDR and "experimenting"
There's a great scene in the not-so-great movie "Pearl Harbor" where FDR is meeting with his advisers, trying to figure out how to bomb Tokyo. He shoves his chair back, locks his braces in place, and struggles to his feet. The lesson is nothing is impossible. Find a way. Doolittle's Raid is the outcome. Whether or not that scene has any truth or is Hollywood hyperbole, I can't say. Will we need that kind of leader in the years just ahead? Could Obama possibly pull that off? Stay tuned for the next installment in his illuminati rise-to-power saga, folks.

Jonah
Another great coullum from Goldberg. I just wish you would have touched more on the parallels between the left of then and today. Thanks again for a good coullum.
Kirk

No One Knows
We must always speculate as to how a new President will lead, but in Obama's case, speculation is too generous. With the exception of the truly blind, ignorant Obama-ites, who can possibly believe this man will be a strong nationalist and leader? His resume shows nothing of the sort. There's nothing quite like on the job training for the most powerful position in the world.

I hope and pray he moves to the center, but he even said his first act as President would be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act. I loathe where his priorities lie.

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between....

"confidence" and "arrogance," and what we've actually been seeing in Marxist Obama is ARROGANCE!

"I hope my team can emulate is not always getting it right, but projecting a sense of confidence and a willingness to try things and experiment in order to get people working again."

And those on the left refuse to even acknowledge that, in large part, the reason we even need to worry about getting people working again, is because of THEM!

Marxist Obama wants to experiment? Right! Socialism/Marxism/Communism has already been experimented with.... IT DOESN'T WORK!


Referendum on Pelosi, not Obama
2010 mid-term elections we need to make the economic mess that is likely to continue a referendum on the "failed policies of Nancy Pelosi". She's vulnerable.

Too many Obama Kool-aid drinkers to make this a referendum on him. And he will likely blame it on Bush, or Global Warming, or Hannity, or Fox News, or everyone but himself.

Take a look at every Democrat and liberal Republican in the House and expose them for the frauds that they are. YouTube is likely the best weapon. The mess will impact low-income individuals as they will be the ones losing their jobs with reduced spending as a result of higher taxes.

The message: BIG GOVERNMENT PROVIDES ONE THING - DISAPPOINTMENT.

We can turn this class war against the LibDems.

One wouldn't know
from reading this article that it was a Republican administration that proposed the bailout in the first place.

Americans elected an UNKNOWN
So that is what they are getting...sorry but experimental surgery has killed millions of people...I wanted experience and all I got was someone who gave a speech in '2004 and spent two years running for President and who helped destroy Illinois by being in the government and voting present when he wasn't voting in extremism

Todd 8:18
UCLA economists poured over the dollar numbers and economic activity from 32-40 regarding FDR's public works projects he used to put people back to work.

Unequivocally, they submit he prolonged the Depression by 7 years.

The only thing that pulled out the U.S. out of Depression was World War II. -- Todd

============================

Agreed, and it seems we've done things backwards, We're in a war, and in a recession. I wonder (despite BO retoric)if we will end up in either civil or world war again. Clearly al qaeda thinks it's just begun.

Today it is reported al qaeda said:

"America has put on a new face, but its heart full of hate, mind drowning in greed, and spirit which spreads evil, murder, repression and despotism continue to be the same as always," the deputy of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden said.

Also:
Al-Zawahri also called Obama—along with secretaries of state Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice—"house negroes."
=================
Sound familiar? The left says this. When I read this I could have swore koolmuse wrote it.

Jo .....


it is reported al qaeda said:

"America has put on a new face, but its heart full of hate, mind drowning in greed, and spirit which spreads evil, murder, repression and despotism continue to be the same as always," the deputy of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden said.

Also:
Al-Zawahri also called Obama—along with secretaries of state Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice—"house negroes."

Jo ....
Sorry .... hit wrong key ...

You have made my day. People wonder how it is that I'm always happy. It isn't that I don't see the seriousness of things. Sure evil angers me. It's just that I recall Puck in a Mid Summer Nights Dream ... 'What fools these mortals be.

I can feel sorry, but not sorry for us. How could things possibly be different than they are? It's all too funny. You are familiar with Einsteins definition of madness?


it is reported al qaeda said:

"America has put on a new face, but its heart full of hate, mind drowning in greed, and spirit which spreads evil, murder, repression and despotism continue to be the same as always," the deputy of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden said.

Also:
Al-Zawahri also called Obama—along with secretaries of state Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice—"house negroes."

Pyschological problems
I knew it, I knew it. Barack acts like a an under sixth grade child, "Who do I want to look up to", Who do I want to make myself in the image of"? For God almighty's sake Barack , tell the truth of who you really are. Some images remind me of this guy, like the Great Pretender, Waldo Pepper, and some side show hack. We might as well put a teenager in charge of piloting a 747. I guess he can talk the talk but in the end he just walks like a guy with multiple sclerosis. He is a sham.

No to Expiremental Government
Great column Jonah! I think we've now reached the point where, like doctors and lawyers, politicians can call what they do "practicing government". I would like to let all of them know though that I and my family are not guinea pigs or lab rats. We are real people, with real lives and real problems. Left to our own efforts and ingenuity, most of us will find ways to solve these ourselves. We do not need or want politicians "expirimenting" with our futures.

I wonder why no one talks about the hidden costs of these bailouts. How much money in addtion to what is being doled out does it cost the taxpayers to subsidize the administrative bureaucracies that pass out the checks. Imagine if instead, the government had said we are going to cut taxes at all levels of income and corporate taxes to an amount equal to the $700 billion they've confiscated from us, only to give it back out, less their "handling fee" of course. What impact would that have on the economy?

Having been subjected to a large 6 figure loss in my retirement portfolio due to their expirementations, I am hardly inclined to as "May I have another, Sir?". I can only hope that I will be able to recoup my losses over the next 10 years before I reach retirement age or my grave.

1935 WAGNER ACT SIGNED BY FDR

.....Gave unions great power over industry ...

.....Obama wants to increase that power by stopping the secret ballot ...

.....Union monoplies controlling the means of production will lead to Nationalization of major industries and the Socialist Government that was the dream of FDR .....COLOSSUS

Todd 8:18
Sorry forgot to send the source link.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94I1LA80&show_arti cle=1

Al qaida also says by electing BO, the US admits to failure of the war. Humm ... sounds like those on the left too!

You know if al qaida wasn't named I could have sworn democrats wrote this article.

KILLING THE GOLDEN GOOSE

.....From my blog ..."Unions Part seven" ...

.....What the United Automobile Workers has done ...on the foundation of coercive interventionist labor legislation ...is bring a once great company to its knees. It has done this by a process of forcing one obligation after another upon the company ...while at the same time ...through its work rules ...featherbedding practices ...hostility to labor saving devices ...and outlandish pay scales ...doing everything in its power to make it impossible for the company to meet those obligations .....COLOSSUS

to answer the question
I am not sure how Goldberg has missed this being the learned man that he is, but confidence plays a large part in economics. People make different decisions if they think the economy is improving than if it is contracting. They behave differently if they think the government is working with them than if they think it is throwing in the towel.

Obviously Goldberg is also hoping that one misreads Obama to be saying that the success of his policies is irrelevant. His point is that one can try different things, some of which will work and some won't, or one can be risk averse and try nothing, and so do nothing wrong. Obama is saying that he favors the former.

What kind of surgeon would I prefer, it depends on my health. In some situations I would rather play it safe and risk no harm. In others, it would be worse to be risk averse and to accept a bad outcome meekly.

Remember FDR
Those who think people will turn on Obama if he fails, keep in mind, FDR is still hailed as one of our greatest Presidents despite the facts that he prolonged the depression and "led us into a prolonged and bloody foreign conflict." (Hmm, haven't I heard the left say the exact same thing about Bush?).

There is a chance Obama could end up a Carter, but the mainstream media wants to make him another FDR.

Bailouts And Boondoggles
The stock market has been volatile ever since the election,being down almost every day. Jonah is right. The powers that be should not keep talking about going broke.

Drudge has a link to a story today about the CEO's of the Big Three coming to Washington begging for handouts. How did they travel? Why in the company's corporate jets. Sell the jets!

Of course the news media hawking about the financial problems 24/7 does not help the markets. It helped get their 'messiah' elected,though.

If they tried to talk up the economy before the election,instead of talking it down,it may have made a difference.They should not be so negative.

What an expensive joke
Just because one Marxist fails doesn't mean that the next one will! I mean we've only had this concept around for a hundred years and it hasn't worked yet! So let's replace a system that has been the engine of the world for one that would be the biggest joke ever told!

Or would be, if it was ever told by the media or heard in our schools.It's an expensive joke and you have to ask, exactly how many more millions have to die in order for it to finally be heard no more?

Rowly: EX-ACT-LY! Sell the corp jets...

and get rid of ANY and AL other NEEDLESS OVERHEAD and EXPENSES.

And, how about a NEW BUSINESS PLAN?

And what about getting rid of the UNIONS? (like that will ever happen!)

And then, how about NEW AND BETTER MANAGEMENT?

How about anything to demonstrate that they've learned a LESSON perhaps and will begin doing business differently???

confidence
Confidence is one thing; experimentation is another. While projecting confidence is part of a president's role, experimenting can be disastrous when it involves the economy, jobs, lives and national security. However, if Obama just waits this recession out, his popularity will suffer. People are looking to the long arm of the illuminati to pull them out of the mud and muck, and that's a response that would be too hard to unlearn in these tenuous times. Obama needs to ride through this presidency on his popularity, so I'm pretty sure he's not going to take the unpopular "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" route. He's going to keep interfering and keep getting the government involved.

Anne
Some of the workers earn (no,are paid)$78 per hour!! That's the union forcing higher and higher wages.

They need to restructure wages and all the other perks before taxpayers are forced to give them one cent.

Anyone not willing to take a pay cut until their economy gets better does not deserve a job,much less a handout from us.

BTW...Howdy!!

GI bill is a better model
All this tlk about infrastructure harks to a different era. It is not manual laborers that are getting laid off. We would do better to look at the H21 visas and seek to retrain people to fill those needs.

Experimental Govt may be the LEAST of

Marxist Obama's worries, and ours as well.....

Al-Qaeda vows to hurt Obama's US

messagehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7737710.stm

"You were born to a Muslim father, but you chose to stand in the ranks of the enemies of the Muslims, and pray the prayer of the Jews"
~ Al-Qaeda

"The second-in-command of Islamic militant network al-Qaeda has called on Muslims to harm 'criminal' America.

"In a message purportedly from Ayman al-Zawahiri, the al-Qaeda deputy accused US President-elect Barack Obama of betraying his Muslim roots.

"He likened him to a 'house slave' - who had chosen to align himself with the 'enemies' of Islam."

Arsonists, not firefighters
Excellent column. 5 stars.

"And if the problem right now is uncertainty, then these aren't firefighters, they're arsonists."

Absolutely correct. Much of the problem right now IS uncertainty and most of the folks in Washington (D's and R's) ARE arsonists, no matter what their intentions are.

Jim

Treachery is ...
a valuable tool.. Could this be a set-up like the Zimmerman letter? I just am not big on trusting politicians. Anyones politicians.
Referring to the Al Quaida thing.

Please Stay Out of Our Way
Goldberg's lament ignores who got us into this mess. Each and every one of you who voted and supported the Republican party now have given the rest of us the mess we're now in. I don't think mainstream America is much interested in hearing opinions of how to unmangle the train wreck the Republicans caused. You guys are so out there, that you'd let our national security be at risk by letting America's auto industry collaspse (though consistent with the rest of your philosophy). Each and every one of the auto maker's suppliers, employees, and vendors would go down to. Our country's next big push is to achieve energy independence. Who's going to make our cars -- China, India, Brazil.
Let the adults take over. You guys blew it, so just stay out of the way.

Jeez legalbeagle ....
I'll bet there isn't anything that you don't know everything about. That's why guys like yourself find the individual liberty of the rest of us so messy. We are very inconvenient to have about when you guys could manage everything if we are only bent to your will.
That's the reason that in the end guys like little Willie Ayers recognizes that about 25 million of us would have to be disposed of to give birth to a just economic society.
Got to break eggs to make an omelet!

You are undoubtedly a real sweetheart ...

FDR redux
I am not surprised Obama wants to emulate FDR, who started this whole big government thing going. To me, he was the worst of our presidents.

Cliff
I'm not sure what your point is. "Individual liberty" is what?, your short hand phrase to describe the right to make incredibly poor decisions. Jefferson said that it's every citizen's duty to remain informed about their goverment. But you Republicans just march together in boot strap fashion, tell each other that you're "great americans" and then screw this country up beyond belief. Thanks for exercising your "individual liberty." And your right, you have messed it up. BTW, how does Ayres figure into it (other than for red meat purposes among the bomb throwers of the right wing).

Change? What change?
The Obama administration is beginning to take on the look of another Clinton administration.
Is that the change that he promised? Is that going to bring us all together? Or more likely is it just more of the same old partisan hack politics, with the dems in control?

legalbeagle: WHAAAAAT?????

"Each and every one of you who voted and supported the Republican party now have given the rest of us the mess we're now in."

Okay, that was some kind of record. You gave yourself and your stupidity away in the very first sentence.....

OR, your entire post was satire!

But just in case, you want to check out who started the Sub-prime mortgages? And you want to check out who tried to get some regulation on Mac & Mae?

And perhaps you'd like to check out on youtube... "Democrats Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Economic Crisis"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p1Wc2NFa3w

The rest is probably over your head, but there's much more... Drilling at home, and securing our own oil resources, rather than be dependant of oil from countries that don't exactly have our best interest at heart, is a good place to start.

A Tale of Two Presidents
FDR saw what was happening on Wall Street and in the banks and prolonged the depression by seven years. Experimentation for the sake of appearing confident was the watchword.

President Reagan saw the meltdown in 1987 and let the market recover on its' own. Took less than a year.

The conclusion is obvious.

For a good take on what is occurring today, read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". It could be cut and pasted into today's headlines.

And GWB suggesting the bailouts proved, once again, he is not a conservative. Just another Big Gubmint apologist.

The road to this mess is too long...
...to blame one party. You're better off blaming both and working toward making the Republicans *AND* Democrats obsolete. 30 years to create the mortgae mess (CRA), 90 years to create the financial mess (Federal Reserve), no parties willing to do what it takes.

The firefighter analogy is perfect, but these bozos are spraying water on an oil fire.

legalbeagle...
please google the following terms:
"Community Reinvestment Act of 1977"
"Clinton repeals Glass-Steagall"
"Obama Citigroup Lawsuit 1994"
this will give you an idea of how we got into this mess - it has nothing to do with the last 8 years of republican leadership (although I can't say I'm exactly proud of Bush)

Anne: Still Drinking the Kool-Aid
Why don't you tell us who caused the economic melt down? Who was running Congress since 1994 and both branches since 2001. Spell it out for us how a party (the Dems) who was not even allowed to hold a hearing, is responsible for this disaster. You're post poses questions but gives no answers (and there's a reason for that). Let me guess, you're of the belief that the sub-prime mortgages were caused by the democracts or the poor (choose one), that our present melt down is due to Obama's election, and that the tanking of the world's economy (not just the US) is due to FreddieMac and FannieMae. You're the party who held no oversight hearings from 2001 through 2006. Why was that? Becuase the "free market" will regulate itself as self-interest will promote self-discipline. That worked out real well for all of us didn't it? It must have been a shock for you when Greenspan said that one fatal flaw in all of your calculations was not figuring out the "greed" factor.
In fact, Gramm and gang foisted a whole new class of "securities" that was no more than "casino style betting" (the default swaps) and then deregulated it. Other regulations that, if enforced, would have prevented the predatory subprime activity of the business wing of the Republicans, were specifically not enforced by the Bush administration. Indeed, when the states attorney generals went after these offenders, Bush & Crew (the ones you enabled) then attempted to stop the states from preventing these practices. Again, spell it out for me Anne so that we can understand how this was the democrats fault (btw, our election did settle this question).
To put it another way: Just becasue Sean and Rush tell you it's so, and repeats it ad nauseum, does not make it so. Sorry to confuse an issue with the facts.

Redlining is Not Lower Qualifications
One of the myths floating out there in Republican land -- part of the lifeline denias you folks need so much -- is the Jimmy Carter era legislation of 1977. I think it was Rush, or Sean or one of the other mutton heads of the right that have been promoting this. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 established this proposition: Lenders could not deny loans to minority borrowers that were otherwise qualified. If a black borrower met the lender's qualifications on income to debt, loan to value and other ratios used to extned a loan to whites, then those loans had to be extended to blacks. The legislation went to the practice of "red lining." Denying the extension of credit simply on the basis of the neigborhood you lived in was what the CRA addressed. It did not lower lending standards. None of these items did. And to suggest that a lawsuit filed an Illinois attorney in 1994 caused the market crash in 2008 has to be hard to swallow even for you. Nice try.

Legalbeagle - Dem Talking Points
What oversight would have been proposed by the Repubicans? What regulation? That all home owners must have X% down and not be allowed to take ARMs? This would have been struck down by Barney Frank and crew as putting limits on "affordable housing".

Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Chuck Shumer, and the rest of the Dem gang are at the core of this mess.

It is interesting that we have names and documention to support a strong case that LibDems were the culprits, but there is no Republican's being named (at least none in leadership roles.)

The campaign is over - you can get off the talking points.

Rowly 11:43 (And Anne)
Some of the workers earn (no,are paid)$78 per hour!! That's the union forcing higher and higher wages. -- Rowley

============

The argument of union workers is, we should all fight for better paying jobs and get paid that $78 per hour.

What they fail to comprehend is: $78 per hour PLUS, regulator costs,PLUS FICA, PLUS corporate taxation, plus, plus, plus etc... Effectively chases the very same job out of the country, or they company goes under. Too many Americans thinks that all business has money to burn, they don't.

(And with that said, note I realize not all are like this. It is a slap in the tax-payers face when the few greedy ones like the big 3 automakers fly in private jets to beg for money. I agree there would be more sympathy to their argument if they sold the jets - THEN asked for the billions.)

Justin
I agree that the road was long to get to this point.

The problem has been and will continue to be promising things to voters that they can't pay for and kicking the can down the road for our children to live with.

The credit crunch is just the latest manifestation of promising more than can be delivered by BOTH parties.

Until we return to the idea of a limited government delineated by a static Constitution (one that has an imbedded method of change as necessary) we will continue down this road.

TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)or you get what you earn, not what you steal.

When the producers in society are set upon by the looters and the takers, we all lose. Robin Hood was a punk and that myth has been perpetrated on the American people.

BTW
Jonah Goldberg is right and all the kicking of feet and gnashing of teeth and screaming "It was the other guy's fault! Not mine! Our intentions are pure!" won't change the fact that politicians continue to promise more than thay can deliver and this crisis proves it.

The law of Unintended Consequences is kicking some democrat booty at present.

Did you read this?
"The Muslim nation received with extreme bitterness your hypocritical...stance toward Israel," he said. "You were born to a Muslim father, but you chose to stand with the enemies of Muslims."

An Obama spokeswoman in Washington said the president-elect's office was not planning to comment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4AI47X2008111 9
=================

No comment?

So much for no pre-condition talks with the enemy. Another broken promise?

The Regulations Already In Place
These aren't talking points Steven. We have had in place effective regulations to prevent predatory lending which is at the heart of our problems. The Truth in Lending Act (TILA) and the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA), along with Regulations Z and X, were in place since the 1980s. TILA and RESPA are enforced by the Treasury Department. What Bush and Co. did was simply refuse to enforce the regualtions. One of them prohibits fraudulent lending practices. All the Repub/Feds had to do was enforce it. But to do so would have been counter to Ameriquest, New Century, CitiGroup, Countrywide, Bears Stearn, etc business practices. These were big contributors to the Republicans. Ameriquest, for instance, heavily financed the Republican party in the 2004 elections. Its president, Roland Arneil, was appointed by Bust to be amabassador to the Netherlands right after Ameriquest closed its doors in 2006. Crime doesn't pay, huh?
As much as you guys would like to blame the poor and the dems, what these predatory lenders did was to lend to anyone who's name was on title and could create fog on a mirror held under their nose. The business wing of the Repubs then "bundled" these sub-prime loans into bonds or debt instruments and had their Rating Agency colleagues rate them as Triple A. These genuises then marketed these bonds to the world as safe and secure investments when they were just the opposite. These mortgage backed secuities were destined to fail two to three years out -- and they did. But the fraud meisters weren't happy with those securities. They had created in 1999 (Sen Gramm of Texas, Steve) a class of credit defaults that were not regulated at all. These credit defualts became bets against the solvency of these mortgages. That's right, the "free market" was then investing trillions of dollars betting on whether the mortgage secuities would fail or not. Casino style betting. Blaming the poor won't work this time.

legalbeagle
No, what Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Chris Dodd, Barney Franks, Ms Gorelick and Frank Raines did was fail to enforce the regulations, take stands against regulations and scream racism anytime there was a call for responsibility from the Republicans.

Whining won't change things. Your guys caused itin the name of "fairness" and "affordable housing".

No matter how you spin it, it points directly at the democrats.

60 Minutes "interview"?
I thought a group hug was going to break out. I never such softball questions from a journalist in my life. A complete joke.

I can't wait until the difficulties of the presidency force Obama into a position where he has to turn on his base and the far left lib "journalists" that are in the tank for him.

Instead of informing people by taking the other side of an issue(s), which they never do - unless their subject is a Republican - they just get all tingly like Chrissie Matthews does whenever he sees Obama.


LeagleDweeble
BS. Back up your facts with links to the papers you are perusing for your argument in assailing the Republicans.

You Dems own this mess and you know it. Send me proof of Bush admin trampling on states not to correct practices in lending and their turning a blind eye.


LeagleDweeble: Check out on youtube...

"Democrats Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Economic Crisis"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p1Wc2NFa3w


and THEN get back to uss..... Chow! :-)


Illegal Beagle
I always thought many lawyers were dogs,now I know what breed they are. Most of them are not really dumb,though. Not dumb enough to say that the meltdown was not caused more by Democrats than Republicans.

If there was one little iota of evidence that ANY Republican could be blamed for the mess,Henry Waxman would be berating them in congressional hearings at this very minute. He is not because there is no evidence.

The Republicans in congress should have been more forceful in stopping the abuses,but the had no hand in causing the abuses in the first place.

It is bad enough that the left can't face up to any wrongs they do. But do they have to LIE about it?

Todd: HOW could anyone with even a

minimal IQ be making the argument legaldweeble is making.... ????????????????????????

CONSERVATIVE COUNTER ATTACK

....To prepare for the 2010 mid term elections Conservatives need to frequent the following sites:

...1. http://www.republicanforareason.com ...this site will allow the exchange of ideas with the RNC and fellow Conservatives ...

...2. http://www.goptrust.com ...this site will allow conservatives to get involved in current battle sites where conservative values are under attack ...

.....If Conservatives want to take back our party and our country we need to organize now and plan ahead ...the time to get to work is now .....COLOSSUS

Habib
That's what we said four years ago, but would you and the whiny me, me, me nutjobs shut up? Nope.

So don't go around telling us to shut up.

You don't like what is said on this site? Go to huffpo or dailygross and have fun.

Now YOU STFU!

Habib
You the epitome of the problem in this country. How are the Reps a party of bigots? The Reps freed the slaves. The Dems were segregationists weill into the 20th century. You obviously do not do your own thinking or research. Keep following your MSM blindly, sooner or later they will lead you right over the cliff.

Habib the Whiny
Anytime a liberal calls me a bigot, I know I'm on the right track.

You gave us an empty suit full of hope and change which is why he has bankers and lobbyists on the One's staff. And change that is hope and hope we can change for and change we can hope for. Empty rhetoric eaten up by the non-thinking sheeple.

Some change, Rahm Eammanuel, Hillary Clinton...

ROFLMAO!!! Your change stinks to the skies of politics of the same old same old.

Habib
Do you know who has control of the purse strings in this country? Hint: it is not the president. I will give you that Bush has been miserable the past 4 or 5 months, but Congress has been FAR worse. They are far more guilty of the woes we face right now - and it has been Democratically controlled for 2+ years. You can thank your party for the subprime mortgage crisis - doesn't it strike you as odd the timing of collapse? Of course, you do not think for yourself and you are an ideological midget so I do not expect you to know the truth. Blame it all on Bush if it makes you feel better, but the same idiots who caused the mess are in charge of fixing it. You will be affected by the mess in one way or another.

Anne...
you can lead a lawyer to water but you can't make them think

Responder
Let's hope Obama has more sense than that. I know from his past it does not seem like he will, but we must stay vigilant an battle him anytime we disagree. We have a TON of work to do as Conservatives, but I am up for the task. I am getting involved locally and I will do my part. I believe many/most Conservatives will. We are not dead as an ideology, we just have not been represented since Reagan (there is an argument for '96). When we get the right person on our ticket the people will respond like they did to Reagan, but we all must be diligent and get as involved as possible.

Kent: Isn't that the truth! :-(
Especially after they've been drinking the kool aid...


My County in Texas

Voted 77% McCain/Palin 21% Obama/Biden. There has never been a democrat elected to local office. In fact none has ever run for local office in 160 years.

Life here is slow and easy. People work hard and pay their bills and taxes. We are friendly to each other and strangers and minorities. Government is efficient and leaves us alone. Hardly any crime...we leave our doors and cars unlocked. Everybody's got a gun handy and because of that they don't need 'em.

We'll get through the messiah's socialist presidency and in 2010, 2012, 2014 and 2016 we'll vote the same numbers and no democrat will be elected to local office for generations, if ever.

Will I reveal the name of my county? You think I'm crazy?

Hawkeye
Texas is one state that has its head on right. If things do not work out for me where I live, I will be moving back to TX. God Bless Texas.

Experimental Government?
From the rhetoric that Obama and his wife used in their campaign, the type of government they plan is not modeled after FDR but Adolf Hitler. They said that they would tell us what kind of food we would be allowed to eat, what kind of cars we would be allowed to drive and they would tell us what to do and when to do it. In one of her early speeches, Obama's wife said that when her husband is president he will not allow Americans to live their lives as they used to. I wondered at the time what Obama would call his stormtroopers who would enforce his new rules. And now I hear he wants to create his own private civilian army, drafting people into it whether they want to serve or not. Will we soon be forced to shout "Heil, Obama!"?

WHEN
barry started campaigning two years ago, how many Americans and illegal aliens did he think he would be taking care of with his tax hikes and social programs? Just, the under privaleged, the homeless, the uninsured, the uneducated, the poor and their children and those in the Black Community held back by a White society?
Two years later and it looks like his supposed tax cuts for 95% of us will 'CHANGE' to 95% of us having to be taken care of.
I know joe biden can't count that high, I doubt barry can either.

MY COUNTY IN TEXAS
Hawkeye 58, I know what county you are talking about because I also grew up in a county in Texas just as you described. Our front door key was always over the door frame or in the flower pot on the front porch. It still has the pioneer spirit of helping your neighbor, a man's word is his honor and faith in God and family values. I have traveled and worked in many parts of the world but have always returned to my roots of the small town of Texas where I knew my foundation had remained strong.

PRAY FOR CHANGE
CONSERVATIVES PRAY THAT GOD CHANGE OBAMA HEART PRIOR TO HIM TAKING THE OATH OF OFFICE.THROUGH THE POWER OF PRAYER WE CAN CHANGE OBAMA AGENDA.THE ENEMY CAN NOT DEFEAT THE WILL OF GOD WITH THEIR PRAYERS OF DISCRIMINATION, PREJUDICE, AND HATRED IN THE NAME OF PEACE AND UNITY.WE CAN PRAY THAT GOD OPEN OBAMA EYES AND HEART TO TRUTH, JUSTICE,AND THE AMERICAN WAY.

Bhelmet

We'll leave a light on for ya. Good luck.

Harold
hey dude, it's just an initiative to combat chronic diseases, the whole thing with Americans changing their diets, not control over what you can and can't eat. Forgive Barack for trying to bring down the cost of health care by combating chronic disease.

Second of all Harold, we have until 2050 to reduce fuel emmissions 80% below 1990 levels otherwise it could end up costing us , decades from now, hundreds of billions of dollars of dollars. And he's not forcing us to buy certain cars. He's simply going to put certain incentives into the market so it can drift towards green technology, which might just be the key to the next step up into establishing a solid manufacturing base and riddig our selves of reliance of a debt driven financial sector, backed by crappy derivatives and the trading of securities which at this point have proven to suck out loud.

Finally his ideas are well thought out, and accountabillity is what he's trying to carry out. When FDR tried carrying accountability out it was very new back tehn and it was back during a time when we were practically a laissez faire economy, so what OBama's trying to do at this point is not so much risky experimentation, at this point in time. By the way quit the smirky comments about Obama being like Hitler, because as far as history tells us the last person to misuse our intelligence agencies was.... ah screw it, if you know a few things about U.S. history you'll know which president i'm talking about.

Obama is not Hitler

Conned by 'Obama' a Snake Oil Salesman

Barack Obama has never held a job that did NOT involve talking- unless you consider 'Organizing Communities for Communists' a job.

Barack Obama has 'ZERO' executive experience - he has never even run a lemonade stand.

Barack Obama was elected President of Harvard Law Review but published 'NOTHING".

Barack Obama was an Illinois Senator 1996-2004 - voted 'Present' 129 times.

Barack Obama never authored and brought to vote ONE BILL of his own. You know, the stuff, senators are supposed to do. Not just show up and vote 'present'.

Barack Obama, as a US Senator logged 143 days of which he accomplished 'NOTHING'.

Barack Obama (off teleprompter) name the most significant thing you have ever done? uhh umm er uh duh

Barack Obama could not even run his own campaign - David Axelrod did.

Liberals are bragging about being 'Conned' - how funny!

if you are a good enough 'Con Man' like Barack Obama – which involves appearing not quite good enough and rather sympathetic to those they 'Con' – you will get away with it.

Barack Obama walking the path between the 'Obama Current Truth' and the delusions of those who trust him - this apparition is either a fiend or the 'Messiah'.

The advantage Barack Obama has over his 'Rubes', is that his lies about his past and lies about the future of his 'Rubes' are so outlandish - the Obama lies are transmuted until the 'Rubes' rejoice in their being conned.

This orgiastic moment could only be achieved on those decadent 'Rubes' that think they are so intelligent that they could NOT possibly be conned - what a group!

what a comment
There are better ways Obama could have projected his admiration of FDR. Planning his illuminati presidency around experimentation is not what can project confidence in anyone's mind. He was supposedly hired becuase he KNOWS what to do, not becuase he's going to "experiment" on the entire country

Looking thru the looking glass - Pt. II
The consumer-price-index released this morning showed that the consumer price index fell the most in 60 years in the last month and people cheered! Are they insane? This is a huge step on the critically painful route of devaluation. House mortgages are bad now, but what will they be if devaluation takes root? Possibly, one-fourth of what they are today. Will people want to buy a car today for $20,000 when it might be worth $10,000 in the future? No.

Right now, is not the time for experimental surgery or another retarded governmental “band-aid.” First, everyone needs to calm down for a few days. Then, let the car companies go into voluntary bankruptcy where they can renegotiate their contracts without the union breathing down their necks. The shareholders and option holders will get slammed and their value will become $0, but they have already lost so much anyway that there seems that nothing can be done to get it back. So, into Chap. 11, a federal judge will rework the contracts with dealers, unions and suppliers, fire management, and hire someone like Romney, who knows the business and saw his father do the same thing and studied his father’s model in Bus. School and used it through out his career to turn around companies. Also, Obama needs to step back on cap-and-trade and another more difficult Kyoto.

This is the wrong time in our market to even talk about experimentation and instituting new requirements on an economy in dire straits and an industry on life support. If Obama does any of this and Congress gives the automotive industry a bailout, I am with Mitt Romney that we “can kiss” American car companies “good-bye”. And, “back to the future” policies of the 1970’s or 1930’s for everyone else.

Looking thru the looking glass - Pt. I
An economic thoughtout out through the prism of the Looking Glass in Alice in Wonderland....

Obama, this sure sounds like it will both help the economy and the global environment! NOT.

GM, individually, is hemorrhaging $66 million dollars a day; loses between $500 and $1,000 on each and every car it sells; owes $48 Billion Dollars to creditors, who could force it into involuntary bankruptcy at anytime; beyond the imagination (around $90 Billion or more) in payment, retirement, health care, and other goodies to current and past employees; and, has no plan to immediately restructure the company, outside of bankruptcy, and wants a portion of, at least, $25 billion in a bailout (which is a next to big, fat zero on their balance sheet).

Obama spoke in the last two days that the global environment is in, basically, critical condition, and that no time is a good time to implement environmental programs; yet, he plans to do exactly that. He wants to place expansive cap-and-trade policies in America and force companies like GM to build more fuel efficient and lighter cars in the very near future.

Additionally, the Obama Administration and the Kyoto Treaty nations want to sign a more severe agreement in 2010. Today, Canada, a signatory and one of the best countries at attempting to meet the requirements, is further behind meeting the goals than when it signed, according to Canadian environmentalists. Yet, the US and the Kyoto nations are going to sign another document while excluding the two most explosive markets in the world, China and India.

Lefties
The United States is on the verge of nationalizing health care, home ownership, and the automobile industry. The only consolation I have about this is that you guys are going to hate it. You're also going to hate Obama's Civilian Defense Force when you see 'em on the streets. You keep demanding that government enlarge its role in your lives. Seems kind of anti-freedom to me.

Given all the talk re: al Qaeda's tape
I write these thoughts with a heavy heart:

When I read the transcript, there was something that kept nagging me in the back of my mind and please accept that my writing is something that I honestly hope NEVER happens.

Apart from the fact that al Qaeda failed to buy into “hope” and “change”, they were racially insensitive and, further, believed that his promises about talking to dictators without preconditions was only more talk from a President-elect of the Great Satan and one that met with Jewish leaders.

Obviously, they do not believe his election will help America emerge from what it believes is "American Imperialism". And, they have never consumed the Kool-Aid. All of this brings me to my horrible point:

They know that his father’s family is Muslim. They likely believe that his religious affiliation in the Indonesian schools, which was designated as Muslim. They read into this that he was, in fact, a Muslim.

Under Islamic law, the conversion of a Muslim to another faith, i.e. Christianity, is punishable by death. Unfortunately, therefore, I would not be surprised if some radical cleric issues a fatwa.

While I give Obama deference in respecting his statement that he is a Christian, but, as we all know, al Qaeda is not rational. It is my sincerest hope that this never comes to fruition , but it struck me as odd that, perhaps, something more sinister is going on behind the scenes despite the already disgusting rhetoric contained in the tape. I believe that they do not see his election as a change from Bush II, especially in light of the discussion of Obama’s plan to send further troops into Afghanistan and his visit with Jewish leaders.

I may be a fiscal conservative that did not vote for him; nevertheless, I will pray for his continued safety. After all of these years, we know that we cannot trust al Qaeda.


This is my sincerest prayer for him despite a multitude of ideological principles.

TO RETIRED GEEK
Obama did nothing? Fine.
Bush did a lot of things:
1) Took cocaine and alcool (DUI)
2) Lost a lot of money in oil industry
3) Borrow money from Bin Laden's family member
to put in his failing oil business
4) Invest money in Texas Rangers but didn't
manage it
5) Became governor because of his father
contacts
6) Stole the presidency because of his father
contacts at the Supreme Court
7) Putted at risk thousands of young men and
woman in the wrong war after lying to the
Congress and the American people
8) Cheated at the Justice Departement with
help of his AG and friend Alberto G.
9) Didn't find Bin Laden after 7 years.
10) Commander in chief of the worst economic
crisis in 80 years

But you know, he's a good evangelical so who cares? Obama is a simple Christian who helped his poor fellows in the neighberhood as the Bible teached us. Woooooo! Evil!Communist! First from Harvard. Booooo! First African-American president of Harvard Law Review because he was smart and he had friends and was respected from both sides(Reps.& Dems.)Booooo!
Surrounded himself with the best election team ever (even the Reps admitted that fact).Booooo!
Please Retired Geek, take your retired years to read and to think, not to pray.Or pray after it.

Obama emulates FDR
Americans need to wake up and start learning their history. FDR employed over 45 communists in his government and was part of a world-wide wave of governments that turned towards Socialism for every answer. Everything Prsident Elect Obama does and takes pride in smacks of socialism. NOTHING FDR did helped to turn our economy around. The only thing it did was to enlarge the size of the Federal government. In fact, the only thing that turned our economy around was World War II. While we don't want that, the war created a REAL demand for goods, products and services...not the "make work" sort of programs like FDR implemented. What America needs to do is to manufacture some real products that Americans and the world would like to buy and let creative destruction take its course. It may be rough for a while, but Americans have lost their gumption, creativity, and drive to succeed. Kennedy? Roosevelt? Historians look at both of their administrations in a different light. Kennedy is now studied more for his foreign policy blunders than anything else. He is a lesson in what not to do. Real economists know what fixed the Great Depression...it is ashame our President elect does not.

History Teacher

Denise from CA -- wrong in so many ways
Denise, you made a number of serious charges against the President; there are a number of things for which to dislike the President, but your list is so wrong I don't even know where to begin:
1) Cocaine use -- that's been a claim never proven and he never admitted to it -- further proof that anyone will believe a rumor
2)lost a lot of $$ in the oil industry -- so what? His problem not mine...BTW, what business did Obama run again? I seem to have forgotten
3)borrowed money from bin Laden's family -- again anyone will believe rumor
4)didn't manage the Texas Rangers? I lived in Dallas at the time, and oh hell yes he did! He may not have done a good job, I really don't care, but he was the managing partner (unless you mean he wasn't the field manager, but then why would that matter)
5) Became gov because of his father's contacts...I am a Texas, you, obviously, are NOT! Bill Clinton is the only reason he became gov. Ma Richards, then Texas Governor, really didn't do anything wrong except strongly support Clinton who really upset Texans, 1994 is when Texas became a SOLID Republican state -- all because of Clinton.

Denise from CA you're wrong pt 2
Denise of CA part II
6) Stole the presidency -- you need to get off that dime missy. He won constitutionally, fair and square. If you want to say he stol the presidency, then lets relook at the election of 1960; or how about this past one and all the voter fraud, or what about what's happening in MN?
7) "putted at risk"? Learn some grammer would ya?...he NEVER lied about Iraq and I am sick and tired of hearing that. He had the same intelligence that several other countries had and came to the same conclusions; Democratic members of Congress had the same intel as well. An ill advised war? Yes, but he did not lie -- stop lying to yourself on this one missy.
8)How the hell can he cheat at the Justice Dept? Federal prosecutors serve at the leisure of the President -- learn some civics here.
9)Didn't find bin Laden after 7 years? You think you can do better? Go ahead, try
10)this last one is the worst -- in 2001 he warned of this impending economic crisis if something wasn't done with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae -- he was rebuffed by Democrats in Congress -- who by the way lined their pockets -- such as Chris Dodd, Schumer of NY (no better reason for term limits), Barney Frank -- all of them blocked every Republican attempt to prevent this crisis. 17 times over the last eight years Pres Bush tried to get something done, and every time Dems blocked him. How about you learn a little current events instead of listening to the lies of those who caused this problem.

As to the success of Obama...well, he hasn't taken office yet so we really don't know just how successful he will be now do we?

Bla Bla Bla!
Emptyness + silhouette = ghost = fear = irrationalty = bad decisions = irresponsability = I let everything in God's hands = afraid of life and death = paralyzed mind and spirit = emotionnaly unstabled = hate and intolerance.

Denise in CA
Bush stole the election? That fat gas bag AlBore lost his home state of TN. Even Mondale and Duukakis won theirs you blithering, pathetic whiner.

Denise in CA
public education+paranoia+CA brainwashing= your tiny mind

Keep the change? (ha!ha!)
Prefer the CA brainwashing rather than Religious right wing brainwashing. Compassion, social justice and well-being of everybody should be trade marks of Christianity. It has been replaced by anger, intolerance, racism/xenophobia and bitterness. That's OK, we'll take care. Good luck for the next election in 2012! God and guns will never be the same...Reasonable evolution will prevail.
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