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Wednesday, July 30, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
'68 Olympics Salute Deserves No Honor
by Jonah Goldberg
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Earlier this month, ESPN awarded Tommie Smith and John Carlos the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the ESPYs - the sports network's equivalent of the Oscars - for their once infamous, and now famous, black power salutes from the medal platform at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.

The stench of self-congratulation surrounding ESPN's decision is thicker than the air in a locker room after double overtime. "As the passage of time has given us the opportunity to put their actions into the proper context," gloats USC professor Todd Boyd in an ESPN.com column, "their supporters can now feel vindicated while their detractors must eat their words."

The argument that Smith's and Carlos' critics must dine on their denunciations rests on an inch-deep nostalgia and the triumph of celebrity culture.

Comments by ESPN sportscaster Stuart Scott typify the inanity of ESPN's award. Scott, who was 3 years old in 1968, nonetheless told the Desert Sun newspaper that he remembers how "tense" the times were and how he remembers thinking, "Oh, that was cool for a black man to do that." He added: "As an adult, I get it even more now." Even more than when he was barely out of diapers? That's setting the bar high.

"I've got daughters," Scott said, "so I have to explain to them why that was so important, and how much - even after they did it - grief and hatred they had to face when they came back to the States, to their own country. And why that means they're courageous."

By this standard - for want of a better word - any self-indulgent protest at the Olympics is proof of courage. This is hardly surprising: Radical chic is a corporate marketing plan these days. Che Guevara is a hero suburban teens stick on their T-shirts, and once "revolutionary" music provides the soundtrack for the latest Nike ad.

In today's culture, is it even worth trying to remind people that the black power salute was, for those who brandished it most seriously, a symbol of violence - rhetorical, political and literal - against the United States? It was the high sign for a racist militia, the Black Panthers, which orchestrated the murder of innocents and allied itself with America's enemies. In today's lingo, you might even say black power was "divisive."

But even a more benign view of the salute shouldn't obscure the intense contradictions of ESPN's decision to honor Carlos and Smith. Both men were members of the Olympic Project for Human Rights, which wanted a complete black boycott of the '68 Olympics. The group considered an entire generation of heroic black athletes, including Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson, to be Uncle Toms.

(Does ESPN endorse this piece of history, too? Yes? No? Hello?)

Another important distinction is that this was 1968, not 1938. By the end of the 1960s, America had seen two decades of steady - if too slow - racial progress. The black power vision of an irredeemably "racist Amerikkka" was all but blind to the desegregation of the military, the accomplishments of Owens and Robinson, and the civil rights acts of 1957, 1960, 1964 and even 1968. One hopes ESPN disagrees with those views as well.

There's also the fact that the black power salute amounted to an obscene gesture aimed directly at the Olympic ideal. "The Olympic Games as an ideal of brotherhood and world community is passe," declared radical black sociologist Harry Edwards in 1968. Edwards organized the OPHR and pushed for the Olympic boycott. "The Olympics is so obviously hypocritical that even the Neanderthals watching TV know what they're seeing can't be true."

In a sense, Edwards was right then - and now. The Olympic ideal of putting politics aside and celebrating pure athleticism has always been exactly that, an ideal. And all ideals are ultimately unachievable. China is using the Olympics to paper over the brutality of its repressive regime, just as Hitler did in 1936. In 1972, Palestinian terrorists - grateful for 1968's lesson in the propaganda value of Olympics media attention - slaughtered Israeli athletes. Nations are political entities, so you can't take the politics out of national rivalries.

The question is not, and never has been, whether the Olympic ideal can be achieved, but whether it should be pursued. By embracing those who spat on that idea, it seems ESPN thinks the answer is no. That is assuming ESPN gave much thought to the question in the first place.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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ESPN & Facts? Just ask Rush.
I doubt anyone at ESPN, and especially Stuart Scott, knew any of the facts of this column. Unlike Stuart Scott, I actually remember seeing this event and was old enough to understand what was going on. My take? These two athletes flipped America the bird and were not proud to represent our country.

ESPN's treatment of the Rush Limbaugh situation is illustrative of how they deal with race issues. As in - they don't. Anyone who disagrees with the Harry Edwards and Stephen A. Smiths of the world is a racist. End of story. Don't worry about the facts as they just get in the way.

Everybody says we have to have a national discussion on race. However, when one tries to do that at ESPN they get fired from their job.

They were courageous but they were wrong
that's it.

And yes the event is better understood in context, but that doesn't
forgive them their actions. Blaming Munich on the US athletes is
a stretch one that deserves evidence. Making this assertion without
it is what conservative fascism to make up an ahistorical term.


Goldberg's Honor...
Yes, TAPE the phone-calls, Linda!!! And MAKE her save the DRESS!!! Let me smell the sticky part, Mommy!!! Jonah, in todays lingo, your a "mama's boy." i believe you have little idea of courage, so it's no surprise that it would confuse you when faced with it as in this matter. Smith and Carlos are mericn heroes in the truest sense- they knew what the repercussions of their acts would be, but they followed their beliefs despite of that. I find it curious that you neglect to mention the immediate banishment from the olympic team, loss of athletic scholarships, F.B.I. harassment and even death threats that these men faced after dominating the 200m. Their actions exposed and shamed merica, and rightly so.

Jonah
it's really not your call on this one. Did your mom make you write this? You were not even born in 68. What could you possibly know of the event?
And why would you even care?

I remember it clearly ...
and I remember feeling ashamed of them and angry that they chose the Olympics to dishonor their country...the country they supposedly represented. Jonah got it right.

wrightswrong
An idiotic post. No point.Just name calling because Mr. Goldberg called it like it is and this person lacks the intelligence to debate it.

How utterly assinine.

I recall the incident well...
I remember quite vividly the incident, and the author is correct. The "Black Panthers" were a criminal - terroist organization dedicated to the overthrow of the United States. Same can be said of the Weathermen Underground and Students for a Democratic Society. They were all communist front - terrorist organizations.

A boycott would have been much more honorable for those young athletes. Rather than claiming to represent their country then showing such militant disrespect, a boycott would have made the statement that they felt they were not a part of the country. Instead they appeared to be what they were - pampered athletes.

There was nothing 'brave' about what they did. It was just disrespectful. And as far as ESPN goes, that is a good reason not to watch their dribble.

A650
Goldbergs an idiot. The point is Jonah's mom is the only reason he has a job.

Not in same league as older black saints

Black Power activist Tommie Smith was honored earlier this year at a school in Washington state. Smith was one of several African-Americans who refused to honor the American flag at the 1968 Olympics.

In TV news coverage of the event, I was surprised to hear this Black Power activist talk about a snake and its venom. Perhaps he was referring to the multi-headed snake icon of the Symbionese Liberation Army whose seven principles are the same seven principles of Kwanzaa. Kwanzaa was invented by black activist Ron Karenga, whose violent United Slaves group murdered two members of the Black Panthers. Karenga is a convicted felon for the torture of two black women in ways I will not describe here. Unbelievably, Karenga now heads a black studies department at a California university.

It appears that Tommie Smith's diatribe has not lessened through the years. He's no hero.

Would ESPN have given
an award for bravery to a follower of a white suppremacy group who gave a Nazi salute and sieg heil at the Olympics?

If you invite one violent political statement, you invite them all.

ESPN
Anyone who watches ESPN on a regular basis realizes it has two main intentions - one to report sports news and second, to push its racist ideas as being the "American Way". Anyone who watched the "ESPY's" realized that if you were a white man or woman sitting in the audience, you were the enemy and the whole program was engineered to be a speech on race. Of course, racism is wrong, but an award program recognizing sports achievements is no place to make it seem like it is a black achievement program. The other poster who mentioned the vile treatment of Rush Limbaugh by ESPN was correct to bring it up - but if you listen to ESPN, they to a man defend Limbaugh's treatment. It is becoming difficult to watch ESPN because they less and less concentrate on sports reporting and more and more bring race (their ideas about race) into nearly every venue. One definitely gets the idea that ESPN thinks of itself as a political operation and less as a sports programming operation.

Revisionist History ....
I was 13 when those punks gave the power salute at the Olympics. They should have been ashamed. Bob Beamon showed no such disrespect. Cassius Clay aka Mohammad Ali showed no disrespect in 64. And George Foreman waived the flag after winning his gold in 68. They showed class. Not so ESPN. The smell coming from my tv during that ludicrous presentation reminded me of spring time back on the farm. Bad show Berman. You won't go "all the way" with this BS rendition of history.

Stunned
Apparently Cassius Clay threw his gold medal into the Ohio river due to his being refused service in a restaurant. Ali was roundly criticized for converting to Islam as I recall. Some sports writers still called him Cassius.

I don't think Carlos and Smith were trying to signal anything to you though. They were thrown off of the team as I recall.

Mama's Boy?
Wrightsrong52, your repeated childish digs at Jonah Goldberg about his mother do nothing to weaken his argument, which is characteristically strong and well-made, and only suggest you have a personal bone to pick with the man... or mommy problems of your own. Grow up.

Bloated mess
Mr. Goldberg's piece is a bloated mess that ignores the racial climate that existed in 1968. While he tries to make good points, his seemingly intentional omission of that climate makes his column come across as the bleatings of a privileged white man who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Stunned #12 writes: "They should have be

ashamed."

Agreed! I was in college at the time... and yes, I also remember it well.

They should have been ashamed because most of America was ashamed of them!!!

anderson659 #6: You're right, of course

about wrongswrong. He consistently spews his stupidity and hate on every thread.

But, better he displays his stupidity and hate here on TH than out setting fire to animals.....



Truth vs. Political Correctness
Your analysis is dead-on, but won't win you any points with the politically correct crowd. Those of us who can see through the fog, however, salute you.

Feetsee

Goldberg
Finally you write something good. It reminds me of the Pollard case

"Jonathan Jay Pollard (born August 7, 1954 in Galveston, Texas) is a convicted Israeli spy and a former United States Naval civilian intelligence analyst. Pollard waived the right to trial in return for restrictions on sentencing, pleaded guilty and was convicted on one count of spying for Israel,[1] receiving a life sentence in 1986 with a recommendation against parole. Israel publicly denied that Pollard was an Israeli spy until 1998, when he was granted Israeli citizenship.[2] He was incarcerated at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois in solitary confinement for seven years, then transferred to Butner Federal Correctional Institution in North Carolina.[3] Israel has admitted he was a spy for them and wants him released, but the US Government will not do so, saying he caused worldwide damage to US intelligence collection efforts."

Serious Questions for a few
Those of you calling the athletes "heroes" (a word more misused than any in the English language, I fear), I would just like you to answer something.

Was the Black Panthers a racist, violent organization? No rationalizations, just based on evidence--was it racist and violent? Should people who stand in solidarity with racist/violent organizations be honored?

If an athlete gave a "white power" salute would you want to honor him/her as a "hero?"

Wrightsrong-what is up with the Jonah's mom thing? Since you most likely think those of us who don't bow and scrape and wear sack cloth and ashes for sins in which we had no part (i.e. slavery) are somehow showing racism, you should be careful. I may be forced to use your thin-skinned approach and think that you are an Anti-Semitic person because of your treatment of Goldberg.

Racism
I have lived in this country for almost 20 years and I've seen more racist behavior from blacks or hispanics toward white population than the other way around. It's interesting that white Americans don't seem to want to fight back.

Thank you for this
story, because I thought I was the only one who felt it was wrong to diefy them. The people who stood and applauded werent even born when this happened and only know the spin of the story.

feetsee @ 08:30 wrote
"Your analysis is dead-on, but won't win you any points with the politically correct crowd".

Eh, basically Goldberg (and most conservatives) basically have written off any such efforts (those of winning points with PC crowd) anyway, as such would be pointless.

Par for the course at ESPN
At least on ESPN I can watch a baseball game that doesn’t involve the New York Yankmes, and listen to commentators who don’t incessantly talk about the New York Yankmes, unlike Fox sports.

OK, enough about ESPN’s virtues. Anyone who has watched it for any length of time knows that they are just another left-wing media outlet, and cannot be taken seriously as a source of news. Those of you who mentioned the Rush fiasco, where he was transparently set up by the channel’s management, are already ahead of the curve. This is, after all, the channel that spawned that dumb@$$ Keith Uberdork.

I’ll always remember the aftermath of the “Malice at the Palace”, the Pistons-Pacers riot in 2004. John Saunders had the audacity (where have we heard that word before) to defend the black players rushing the stands to assault white fans who had done nothing to them. That’s just the most glaring example of ESPN’s commitment to leftist inanity.

Bottom line: I truly hope no one is shocked and disappointed that ESPN would sink to the depths of glorifying the contemptible actions of Smith and Carlos.

Cyclist & dc right on
I also remember this incident vividly. At the time I thought it was two spoiled blacks extending their middle finger to America. I have not changed my opinion over the past 40 years.

As a resident of LA and going through the Watts riots of '65 racial tensions were high without these two claiming that America was somehow a racist hellhole.

Victimhood thy name is the black community. BO, in his book Dreams of My Father, calls the "guiding principles" of his church Trinity UCC a set of commandments called the BLACK VALUE SYSTEM. The radical, racist claims of the BVS include the farcial claim that black youth are "captives" in America and America is "killing them off directly or causing them to kill off one another."

When the black community is taught as a matter of religious faith that they are targets for death by the society they are a part of is there any reason for them feel anything other than utter comtempt for America and its flag?

BO claims he is going to unite America. A 23 year, dues paying member of the KKK should be given the same opportunity. How does a black get a complete pass on being a member of a black liberation church with its obvious racist agenda and a white who belonged to a white country club for more than thirty days would be banned from public office?

Change you can believe in. What the hell is this man talking about? He sat on his oreo backend for almost his entire adult life and shouted amen to a alot of racist BS. BO and BS are blood bros.

THESE TWO GUYS WERE SHAMEFUL THEN & NOW
The ESPN display was disgusting to me. I was 19 when these two athletes acted like thugs at the Olympics. But like anything else, the passage of time and allowed others to re-write history.

I'm also really getting sick of the Obama campaign and the Democrat Party using race bating tactics and once again pitting black and white Americans against each other.

Jonah, you're not a Mama's boy, although that shouldn't be a slur, you have CHARACTER -- something these two 'athletes' did NOT.

I Remember, I was there??...
I do not begrudge the author's opinion on the subject matter which is why ESPN would honor this protest...I think that he loses credibility when he tries to set the mood of racial progress in 1968 just after Dr King was assasinated. Whatever's thought of the raised-fist gesture, it remains a symbol of a country in transition regarding race matters. Maybe we should celebrate the progress we've made SINCE 1968.

Harry Edwards is a...
...piece of garbage. Always was...always will be. I give my salute to these Olympians..with the middle finger 0f both hands held high.

Readabook is missing the point
Giving the black power salute associated with the Black Panthers is the issue. If they had chosen to protest in a different manner, I would agree with you.

Those who engaged in sit-ins, those who participated in Freedom Rides, those who risked their lives to register blacks to vote here in the US--those are the heroes!

The Black Panthers was a racist and violent organization. They are on the same level as the KKK. No spinning, no rationalization will change that.

jayhawk in aotearoa,
It's not "your a mama's boy"...it's "you're a mama's boy". Yes, you definitely are. You probably sniff your underarms as well.

ESPN: Yet another 500 lb. gorilla
I've grown weary, sick, and turnde off by the morons who run ESPN as if all the world should genuflect to all things in Bristol. I did not watch the ESPYs, having attempted to do so several times in the past and finding the show as boring as Barack Obama. That these two athletes were "honored" for their "courageous actions" is a slap in the face of all Americans. Here's to the demise of ESPN as we now know it.

Ignorance from the blind
Most of the posts on here articulate clearly the reason why these men did their salute in the first place. I wouldn't promote doing it in 2008. But, I can clearly agree and understand why they did it in 1968. The conditions in our country were much different.

Yeah, it's easy to try to equate the Black Panthers with the KKK. But, it shows the depth of your ignorance. Maybe it's protection for personal/family ties to the Klan. Probably your little way of excusing/pardoning their activities.

The Black Panthers only promoted self-defense against the people who were killing, harassing and intimidating the black community. They used their constitutional right to bear arms to protect themselves and their families as many on here would do if you found yourself in that situation.

The KKK in fact WERE the terroristic killers who acted in complete anarchy and defiance of the law and our Constitution. In their history, they killed thousands of people and terrorized/intimidated thousands more; all under the nose of an impotent/uninterested federal government.

It's easy to play your little game of revisionist history. But, the truth is much bigger and more powerful than lies and distortions.

KKK = Black Panthers?? Yeah right!!

Great column, Jonah
I remember quite well the 60's and it was despicable! Young ignorant people out to right all the "wrongs" of the past of which they have only theinformation of the left-wing professors.
Many of today's problems were caused by the group in the 60's that are now in power throughout the universities, the legal field and government.
ESPN is for all things black not all things correct. I am getting sick of watching ESPN with their idolizing of athletes despite theit ignorance. Stuart Scott fawns endlessly over any black and is a fraud.

The Olympic fraud
"The question is not, and never has been, whether the Olympic ideal can be achieved, but whether it should be pursued."

Okay, fine, we can start to pursue this by dropping the fantasy of "Chinese Taipei" there is no country on earth called this. Now China is trying to force Taiwan to use "Taipei, China (Zhongguo Taibei)" instead and if this happens Taiwan will boycott the games.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/china-taiwan%20relations /2008/07/25/167036/Taiwan-insists.htm


Last year during the Little League World Series on ESPN when players from the Taichung team were having their names, etc displayed when they were at bat they gave their hometown as Taichung, Chinese Taipei. Simply mindless.

Taiwan is unable to display its colors during the opening ceremonies and closing ceremonies or when it wins a medal. It instead must use a flag which is white has the outline of the plum flower in red and white and the Olympic circles and the KMT 12-pointed sun on blue (also in the canton of the national flag) instead.

http://www.fotw.net/flags/tw@sport.html

It also can't have its national anthem played when it wins medals--granted now that baseball has been exiled from the Olympics Taiwan's chances of gold medals is slim, but that isn't the point.

At the very least, Taiwan's formal name should be used--that being the Republic of China, its national flag displayed along with all the other countries and if it wins a gold medal its national anthem played. No more Chinese Taipei nonsense. In 1996 in one of the worst Olympics ever put on by a city, two Taiwan students were arrested by idiotic Atlanta police officers from waving ROC flags at a Georgia State University venue which was hosting the ping pong event--Taiwan won the silver. Well at least they were lucky, the Atlanta police are prone to gun down innocent 90 year olds--so at least they weren't shot.

Yes R.A.M.
"it's easy to try to equate the Black Panthers with the KKK."

That is because they were and are violent, racist, anti-American organizations.

A piece of history, 1968
Just to put all of this in historical perspective, you should realize that this action at the Olympics occurred just a few months after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, in Memphis. The night before he was killed, Dr. King gave his "Mountaintop" speech, in which he called for unity among blacks to exert financial control over their lives through boycotts and promotion of black businesses, not through violent means. He spoke of defeating Bull Conners in Birmingham by standing up to aggression using non-violent means.

As a young Marine, I was stationed in Memphis in the Spring and Summer of 1968, and remember the tensions, as we awaited the rioting that was sure to come. But as we went through the streets of Memphis, walking among National Guard troops sent in to maintain the peace, there was a general sadness over the loss. While there was violent reaction by some facets of the community, there was simply no support for the attitudes and conduct of the Black Panthers or other radical groups.

The true believers of Dr. King's messages, particularly his "I Have a Dream" speech in Washington, are even now working to empower students and workers to realize their goals, without taking into account the color of their skin. It is unfortunate that now, when there is the possibility of having a black man as POTUS, that the MSM and even the candidate himself fail to recognize that it is his character that is important, and not the color of his skin.

I believe Dr. King would have been saddened had he lived to see the Olympic protest, because it was a refutation of the greatness of our country, which he truly believed in. It was also a demonstration of the poor character of the protesters themselves, who should have used the opportunity to present the idea to future Olympians, black and white, that they too could succeed.

Dottie and KKK apologists
Please provide historic examples of the Black Panthers going into white neighborhoods, kidnapping citizens....and killing them.

Or, how about examples of where the Panthers went into "coorperative" jails and pulled someone from their cell....and killed them.

Or, examples where the Panthers threatened to kill citizens for exercizing their right to vote.

Or, examples where the Panthers went into a town and killed scores of white men, women and children and burned down almost every house.

Again, equating the KKK with the Panthers is pure nonsense. I'm sure that you would rather that these citizens simply sit back and allow yourself to be harrassed daily or watch family members get hurt and/or killed or see your property destroyed while the government yawns.

Idiots abound
"You were not even born in 68. What could you possibly know of the event?"

Hey Wrightsrong52...you know there are plenty of books and academic papers on say the US Civil War and none of those writers were born then either. So is your thesis that unless you were alive during an event that you can not know anything about it? So I guess we can then junk all history before say 1910 or so.

This has to be one of the most inane comments I have read on TH--ever.

Jonah
The Olympics was designed as a tool in which Brotherhood could be erected and celebrated.According to American history:Black men had their penises cut-off,while being lynched,4 little girls had been killed,black soldiers where being mistreated,etc.When one considers this as the "Context" for the times,a Black Power Salute was rather passive.To harness their anger and channel it properly was a sign of respect.If either of those 4 little girls had been mine,my fist would have gone up but not empty.To the "Idiot" who says, that the nation was "Ashame".Where the hell was the nation when the aforementioned events happened?" Dumb As"!!

BPP and the KKK
But they killed police officers and according to David Horowitz who was a member of the BPP, they were responsible for the murder of Betty Van Patter.

Now did the BPP ever reach the numbers or levels of violence? No, but that's not the point. The point was that like the KKK it was a violent, racist, anti-American (it was Maoist) organization and in that way it was exactly like the Klan. So, should we honor people giving homage to a violent, racist, Maoist organization? I don't think so.

Where are they now?
What happened to these two guys?
Did they run for office? Did they become Dr and Lawyers and such? Such courage must have driven them to lofty heights.
Or did they return to the U.S. and help Black Panthers blow up buildings?

Then and Now
Imagine life here starting next year with Obama in the White House and a veto proof socialist majority in the legislature. Just think of all the race stuff we're going to have to endure then.

Maybe we'll all have to report to local gathering places and participate in Truth and Reconciliation events like happened in South Africa when the blacks took over and transformed that country into another crotch of the globe diverse hell hole.

Speaking of which, check out another minority owned criminal enterprise, the city of Cleveland, Ohio. A joint task force, including the FBI and IRS, raided the Cuyahogo County offices this week and began a massive clean up of that democrat controlled urban swamp. Typical.

Rhodesia, South Africa, Detroit, Newark, D.C., Compton, Oakland, L.A., New Orleans. As Sly Stone said at Woodstock: "Etc., Etc.,Etc.. . Wow".

Wow! Now. . . America. They'll finally have their diverse, culturally correct grubby mits on America's arsenal, spy network, and justice system with all our newly enacted spy and surveillance powers. And, of course, our general fund. Imagine the carnage!

All you gainfully employed, law abidding, flag waving chumps, go out and get a second job so you can pay for the growing population of hyphenated "Americans" who don't have to work and have all the time and legal rights to steal your air conditioners while you're at work and hock the metal for beer money.

Fools.

RAM great historian
The truth of the tragic history of alot of blacks in America can be summed up in one word. Victimhood!

Why does an black immigrant from Africa see nothing but opportunities in this country but a native born black sees nothing but a hostile white racist society? Where but in America can a black prostitute scream rape at 25 white frat boys, have the charges turn out to be completely bogus and not be charged with a crime?

RAM I notice you make no comment on the preaching of black victimhood by the messiah BO's church Trinity UCC. Is that because you believe with all your being that blacks in America are the most abused humans on the face of the earth?

That blacks were ill treated in America is not questioned? That many, many blacks in America use that ill treatment as an easy excuse for all their ills is a fact. It is also a truth that alot of blacks refuse to concede.

The truth is America for all its faults offers blacks more freedom and opportunity than any country in the world. That is not revisionist history but a simple statement of fact.


Carlos and Smith
Sounds like the name of a bar in a strip mall...but Carlos washed out of the NFL and later worked for a shoe company and was part of the organizing committee for the 1984 games in LA. Later became a high school coach. Smith played for the NFL as well, became a college coach and became a professor (sociology, what else) at a college.

Neither blew up any buildings--nor did any members of the BPP as I recall. Perhaps you meant the Weathermen?




KWILLS
To blow up a building is an act of "Cowardice".Unless of course you die to do it.The Black Panthers never blew up buildings,they were soldiers not "Cowards".The people whom you seek are in Alabama!!!

Well RAM
You certainly get exercised by my comparison between the KKK and Black Panthers. I have to think I am on the right track based on your obfuscating tactics.

My family nor I have ever been associated with the Klan, and I think they are a horridly reprehensible group; just as the Black Panthers were reprehensible. You are trying to rationalize their violence and claim they were only engaging in self-protection. I must say you are uninformed at best, or you are a liar at worst.

The Black Panthers were a racist, violent organization that did much to keep blacks back. If you want to support such groups, that is your right, but don't expect the rest of us to agree with you. I refuse to engage in white guilt as I have never engaged in racist behavior, and I do not believe in taking on the sins of past generations to whom I wasn't even related. I leave that for the leftists.

Oh Killer
Not just Alabama. The Weathermen were also good at blowing up buildings--and they were on the left with your pals the BPP. Soldiers? In whose Army? Usually people who fight against their own government are called traitors, isn't that what you consider the Confederate Army to be? Traitors?

I have a better word for them--two bit, Maoist thugs or to use an old KMT-term, communist bandits.


Dottie/Akagi
In no way am I supporting the BPP. Gimme a break. The vast majority of what they promote is contrary to my personal beliefs.

However, what disturbed me is equating the BPP with the KKK, which is/was much more violent/influencial/powerful.

Most of the Panthers stuff was symbolic rhetoric in response to what was being done to them. The Klan actually intimidated and killed thousands of people. Where the BPP did speeches and marches.

Clearly not even close.

JAG CA
See, you have no idea what you are talking about. Just because I don't accept the BPP as being equivalent to the KKK, now I'm being a victim?

To be clear, I've been on the record countless times against "black victimhood". I am a business owner. You don't have to tell me how much opportunity exists here in the U.S. Because of this country, I've been able to raise the standards for my entire family. I'll put my tax liability up with anyone on this board.

However, you folks want to simply ignore and discount the true abuse and illegality that blacks suffered under for far too long. Probably because it was you and your "clique" that was doing it.

For this writer and those on this board to say that those athletes really didn't have a legitimate gripe is insane. Basic freedoms and opportunities that you and your family had were not afforded to them at that time. The stuff that I can do today wasn't open to them. I wouldn't be where I am today if Americans, white and black, refused to recognize that injustice was being done and decided to do something about it.

Were these these folks supposed to ignore it, eat cheese and smile about it?

The Smithsonian magazine article
I just read the Smithsonian Magazine's article on the black power salute given during our national anthem during the 1968 Olympics...and I remember when it happened.

I am as appalled now as I was back then. The act of clueless Evil Leftist black activists.

Eldridge Cleaver found out the hard way how much less racism has than Communist Cuba had when he defected to Castro's "workers paradise."

When he returned to the States, he expressed his profound gratitude to America and patriotism.

Smith and Carlos never had to go through that. Instead, these supposedly brave protesters, got stroked by every Evil Leftist sports and political commentator over the past 40 years.

Effing America is not a brave act. It is a cowardly act.

R.A.M.
Again as one of my previous posts stated, the Klan was much much larger--one point its membership was in the millions and helped elect a number of US Senators and governors and was able to get Congress to pass bills and presidents to sign into law laws which it supported--e.g. the National Origins Act.

It was more violent as well and had a longer history. Its threat to the US system was greater, but like the KKK, the BPP was racist, violent and anti-American--I don't think anyone is saying the impact of the BPP was the same. They (and I) are saying its ideology was basically the same as the Klan--racist, violent and anti-American. So in that vien, they were the same. And as such do you think it proper for a network to honor people who gave homage to a racist, violent, anti-American organization? If you had track stars today go to Beijing and gave a Nazi salute, do you think they should be honored for that?

You are rationalizing, RAM
I am glad you do not support the Black Panthers. However, any defense of them based on the fact they were less violent, etc. is ludicrous.

I mean come on...by doing that, we could say Charles Manson wasn't so bad--John Wayne Gacy killed more. Oh, but wait, Gacy wasn't so bad because Hitler killed more. BUT Hitler wasn't so bad because Stalin killed more...and on and on. We can always find someone worse! The truth is all of them are bad and trying to make comparisons to make one stink less does no good for anyone.

reparations, sure why not
RAM writes
"However, you folks want to simply ignore and discount the true abuse and illegality that blacks suffered under for far too long. Probably because it was you and your "clique" that was doing it."

This is a bit unfair don't you think, unless most of the people on here are former democrats. I'm hearing all this rumbling of reparations again. I say OK fine. Let a republican bring it to the floor and make the Democrats pay the price for their sins. This might educate black america and most white liberals on the true history of racial abuse in this country. 90 years of slavery, 100 years of lynching, 40 years of welfare destroying black families. That's the democrat party legacy. Oh, and 400,000 black babies snuffed out every year too. Oh, the humanity.

Akagi
I have always considered the "Confederate Army" a legal institution, fighting for their right to secede.I see the Black Panthers and their efforts in the same context.They wanted to leave a circumstance where their right to live was in jeopardy.Whether it be seen through the view of economics or politics, the observations are the same!!!People having their "Right" to self determination denied.

Hating Whitey
From a review on David Horowitz's book. The BBP was truly an Evil Leftist organization:

"The cornerstone of Horowitz’s book is his chapter on the murder of a woman who he had recommend for an accounting job with the Black Panthers. Glorified in movies such as Panther, the Black Panthers was nothing more than a street gang that masked their criminal activities with Leftist rhetoric, according to Horowitz. Horowitz, who worked closely with the group for several years in the ‘70s, outlines the drug dealing, torture, rape, and murder in which the Panthers engaged in the name of “black power.” It was only when he suspected Panthers of murdering his friend did he begin to have second thoughts about his politics.

Like white racists and hate groups such as David Duke and the KKK, the black racists Horowitz describes constitute only a small—albeit still respected—portion of the African-American community. The common denominator among hate groups of either hue is the willingness to accentuate black failure. Multiculturalists rely on this tactic to blame whites for black problems. White racists highlight them to denigrate African-Americans. A perspective not usually discussed by either of these groups is black achievement—in civil rights, economics, education, etc.

David Horowitz’s Hating Whitey stands in sharp contrast to the plethora of literature that parrots academic mantras about whites being the sole source of racism. Those that crave the predictability of the politically correct will be disappointed with this honest discussion of racism."

get a clue, goldberg...
jonah goldberg has to be the worst columnist on here, by far. and, apparently, he is getting paid to write idiodic columns that try to massage the legacy of the oppression of black people in America. for instance, he tries to make the argument that things had gotten much better by 1968, but that doesn't take into account that many of the acts and laws passed were still only paper laws and weren't enforced fully, blacks were still openly discriminated against in almost every area, and, oh by the way, MLK was assassinated in '68. so, yeah, things were soooo much better. plus, his understanding of the statement that Carlos and Smith were making is surface-level at best based on this column. they weren't advocating violence or anything like that, but were trying to bring attentio to the fact that blacks in America were still being woefully mistreated, black soldiers were returning from serving their country in Vietnam and were STILL discriminated against at home (so much for supporting the troops), and to honor the 4-month old killing of Dr. King. i would assume that mr goldberg would write columns critical of southern states that honor the confederacy as well, based on his logic for criticizing the black panthers...

on another note, it's easy to see why blacks are not too fond of republicans. on this site alone, i have read columns about how the US shouldn't feel that bad about slavery, the Tuskegee Experiments weren't that bad, and now how two olympic medalists in the premiere event of the games that brought attention to the very real mistreatment of america's own citizens shouldn't be honored. but, bush being responsible for the deaths of thousands of american soldiers and iraqi civilians over misinformation and an attack against a country that had never harmed us is okay?

Why should it
"how the US shouldn't feel that bad about slavery..."

No one alive today in the US had anything to do with slavery. Anyone feeling bad about slavery in 1865 is simply mindless. Should the Japanese feel bad about Nanjing? Should those that are descended from the NuZhen (Nurchen) feel bad about what happened At Kaifeng in the 12th century? How about the Mongols? Should they feel bad about what their ancestors did?

Oh and in a twist of irony, the descendants are quite lucky their ancestors ended up in bondage. American blacks are the richest black society on earth. Care to look at the conditions where American slaves came from--look at the conditions in Cote de I'voire, Sierra Leone or Ghana sometime. So ira, ask yourself this, would you rather be a citizen of Ghana or the US?

suggestion for the leftisevil
You, and everyone actually, should read destructive generation by Horowitz and Peter Collier. He talks about the accountant but also radical jewish liberal lawyer Fay Stender who helped free many panthers, who all went on to commit more crimes, including murder if I recall correctly. her reward, she was shot 5 times and paralyzed by a BPP associate. Now that's Black Power for ya!!!! Senility over Marxism, vote McCain in '08.

Akagi
Your rather insightful retort to Ira is inadequate.Why?It examines the question from a limited circumstance, that being economics.What if those that were stolen had the Keys to the future.Might the present be different?There is no answer to this rather complicated question.That sir is the crime of "Slavery".The Slaves never had a chance to be who they were born to be,Africans.The outcomes;a nice house and clean sheets are worthy in the eyes of some but not all.Yuck a sheet,when you have the right to a NATION...

........
----it's really not your call on this one. Did your mom make you write this? You were not even born in 68. What could you possibly know of the event?......wrightsrong52-----

Idiotchild, by your logic we can't discuss an event unless we were alive at the time. Are you dumb or just stupid?

......
----However, you folks want to simply ignore and discount the true abuse and illegality that blacks suffered under for far too long. Probably because it was you and your "clique" that was doing it.....ram-----

Remember one thing dimwit, the KKK was an extension of the democrat party.

Yeah Killer
"What if those that were stolen had the Keys to the future.Might the present be different?"

What if Sherman had tried one last assualt at Cheatham Hill? What if it had been the Enterprise, Hornet, as well as the Yorktown sunk at Midway instead of the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu? You know what they say about if and buts Killer. Looking at states in Africa not impacted by slavery, I would expect the states in Africa like Ghana to be little different today even if there had never been European slavery. I guess you'll blame colonialism next.

Worst. Article. Ever.
Here's the real headline:

Privileged White Gasbag Jealous of Actual Courage, Decries Symbolic Gesture

Grow a pair, Goldberg. If you really stand for something, you stand for it every where you go. These men lived and breathed excellence in the face of hate. For that, I (and history) will salute them.

JR
Thanks for the tip on the Horowitz/Collier book.

Yes, those Evil Leftist trial lawyers are still doing their damnedest to aid and abet terrorist criminals. Check out who's begging to represent the terrorist crowd down at Club Gitmo.

The more I hear about Evil Leftists, the more I realize what Benedict Arnolds they all are.

Killer and Akagi
Your conversation reminds me of the Mohammad Ali comment made just before his fight called "The Rumble in the Jungle." He was asked by a reporter how he liked Africa. He responded thusly: "I'm glad my granddaddy got on that boat."

Ali was clearly not advocating for slavery, considering his political and personal background. He was giving America a great compliment, in essence saying 20th century America was a much better place for blacks to live than 20th century Africa.

Ali was clued in. Smith and Carlos were clueless.

Ali, more devastating than Al & Jesse?
The left is evil, unfortunately, by the time Ali got clued in, (read...when his brains got scrambled), the damage he did was irreparable to America as a whole and more so black America. His disrespect of Joe Louis as an American hero and Joe Frazier as a gorilla are only a few examples. If you can find Jack Cashill's book Suckerpunched you will truly understand the damage Ali did to this country. Imagine, generations of black kids looking up to Joe Louis and then generations looking up to Ali, if a person can't see the devastating damage I can't help them. Yet, Ali is lionized by the white liberal media...gee, why am I not surprised?

TheLeftIsEvil
Yes and that fight was where? In Zaire. Now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It is a total hellhole--total barbarism.

Pathetic
Awarding two traitors..I am shocked in a culture that kills its unborn by the bushelbasket. I watched that pathetic insult to out flag and our anthem as a child and still resent those SOB's for it. Having worn the uniform for 20 years I refuse to suffer fools and ESPN and those two clowns take the cake.

Revisionist History
R.A.M wrote:It's easy to play your little game of revisionist history. But, the truth is much bigger and more powerful than lies and distortions.

Whose revisionist history? "Whitey's" that sufficed in education for 200 years or all the NEW facts that seem to gurgle up from the cauldron of the left every day?? Thomas Edison's black assistant being the true inventor? How the Tuskeegee Airmen won the 2nd World War single-handedly? The alleged (unproven) black ancestry of 5-6 American presidents...everyone has an axe to grind and the liberal media educational establishment continue to rewrite history to meet their own needs...those two former athletes are still bozos..courage?? Running around a track while their mates where fighting in rice paddies? Right!!

Akagi
A point which is evaded by you in your argument is;Without "Slavery" 20th century America would have looked much different.If my point is valid,then your point is pointless.Economic outcomes and appearances are not enough to define "Quality of Life".People need their dignity and that must be earned,without interference from others.Slavery interfered with the Destiny of a great people and for what.Oh,I am sorry;Clean sheets and nice government housing!!!

Killer
See how much dignity there is in the DRC these days or for that matter most of the 53 states in Africa.

uwcharlie @ 4:22AM
You mention that to a man the folks at ESPN defend the treatment of Limbaugh. Agreed. That is what I mean about not being able to have a true discussion on race in this country.

For example, let's say John Clayton disagrees with the way ESPN treated Limbaugh. He knows he can't bring this up as Tom Jackson has let it be known he thinks what Limbaugh said was racist (a day after the actual event). All the other blacks fall in line as the unwritten rule is that blacks don't criticize other blacks - no matter what (see John Saunders coverage of Malice at the Palace).

So, when someone at ESPN thought it would be a good idea to honor Smith & Carlos, no one can disagree with them. Is Keyshawn Johnson going to take a stand and say he doesn't respect Smith & Carlos? Michael Irvin? Stephen A. Smith? Stuart Scott? Are you kidding?

Does anyone remember what Rush actually said that got him in trouble? He raised the issue that alot of sports reporters were giving Donavan McNabb favorable press clippings because they wanted to see a black quarterback do well. Was that true? I don't know. We never got to discuss it.


Amen Buck
If you want to accomplish great or even good things you must take advantage of your opportunities?

RAM my man. Any discussion of racial crime in this country might include the number of whites murdered and raped by blacks currently. How many whites do blacks get to kill to even the score for what the KKK did?

You seem to think I am part of a white clique that bears resonsibility for what the KKK did.(Personally I abhor people who preach race based hatred) How about owning up to being part of the murderous black subculture that has sprung up in the fathersless ghettos and is lionized by much of the black entertainment establishment.

Buck and Jag
Are you two married?That is to your own "Ignorance".I am more than certain you know "Blacks" who don't fit your negative descriptions.Your wife or girlfriend probably has a Black friend,wink-wink,now.Be happy for them!

Interesting
The authors associates these athletes and their motivations with every nefarious group since Prieur of Zion yet does not present a single quote from the actors involved as to their actual motivation.

Black Powewr Salute
I recall the shock at seeing these American athletes raise their fists in a political/terrorist salute on behalf of those who murdered police offers, black and white, as symbols of the "system." Their "courage" took into consideration that anyone who criticized them was a dubbed a racist. This thinking persists today, but the race card is wearing very thin.

Black Power Salute
I recall the shock at seeing these American athletes raise their fists in a political/terrorist salute on behalf of those who murdered police officers, black and white, as symbols of the "system." Their "courage" took into consideration that anyone who criticized them was a dubbed a racist. This thinking persists today, but the race card is wearing very thin.

honorable salute
i guess we could have just kept quiet and let the dogs keep biting us and look at the high powered hose as showers..as opposed to trying to be a part of america as other do..respect is due to all americans..

Salute
You have to understand that the America of 1968 was only five years removed from Mississippi Burning. Dr. King had been gunned down by a racist in Memphis earlier that year, while LBJ was sending African Americans to the killing fields of Vietnam in disproportionate numbers. ESPN recognized the courageous stand that Smith and Carlos took on behalf of human rights - as far as I know, neither has ever committed an act of violence. Yet Goldberg chooses to crucify them while finding nothing wrong with the criminal war policies of the Bush regime that have led to so much needless misery, suffering and death to innocent civilians in addition to soldiers.
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