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Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Forced Servitude in America?
by Jonah Goldberg
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There's a weird irony at work when Sen. Barack Obama, the black presidential candidate who will allegedly scrub the stain of racism from the nation, vows to run afoul of the constitutional amendment that abolished slavery.

For those who don't remember, the 13th Amendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime ... shall exist within the United States."

In Obama's mind it must be a crime to be born or to attend college.

In his speech on national service last week at the University of Colorado, Obama promised that as president he would "set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year."

He would see that these goals are met by, among other things, attaching strings to federal education dollars. If you don't make kids report for duty, he's essentially telling schools and college kids, you'll lose money you can't afford to lose. In short, he'll make service compulsory by merely compelling schools to make it compulsory.

When the right seeks to use government to impose its values, the left screams about brainwashing and propaganda. When the left tries it, the right thunders about social engineering. But when left and right agree - as seems to be the case on national service - who's left to complain? As ever, the slipperiest slopes are greased with the snake oil of "bipartisanship."

After all, Obama's hardly alone. Sen. John McCain is a passionate supporter of Washington-led (and paid-for) "volunteerism," as is President Bush. Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-Conn.) and John Edwards both campaigned for the presidency on compulsory national service.

Perhaps thanks to the JFK cult, which sees the refrain "Ask not what your country can do for you ..." as an all-purpose writ for social meddling, even the idealistic hipster crowd is on board. Devotees of Rolling Stone and MTV, who normally preen over their alleged libertarianism when the issue is sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, see nothing wrong with involuntary servitude - as long as we call it "voluntary."

Volunteerism is good. But why does every good thing need to be orchestrated by government? Most people think churchgoing is a good thing. Does that mean government should fund churches? That's what they do in Europe and - surprise! - most pews sit empty.

Americans are vastly more generous with their time and money than Europeans. According to social demographer Arthur C. Brooks, in 1995 (the last year international data on giving was available), Americans gave 3 1/2 times more money to charities and causes than the French, seven times more than Germans and 14 times more than Italians.

In 1998, Americans volunteered 21 percent more than the Swiss and 32 percent more than Germans - two countries with compulsory national service. Yet we're told we should emulate them so that America, too, can have a "culture of service."

But we already have a healthier culture of service without - as Obama would do - doubling the size of the Peace Corps or pushing another 250,000 into AmeriCorps.

Indeed, there's ample evidence that countries with intrusive, expensive welfare states stifle citizens' spirit of charity and volunteerism precisely because people conclude that government should solve every problem. Merely paying your taxes substitutes for charity, and cleaning up litter for two years absolves you from doing anything more.

Time magazine's Richard Stengel speaks for many who insist that American government must consecrate everything. "The reason private volunteerism is so high is precisely that confidence in our public institutions is so low," he wrote last year in praise of universal national service. "People see volunteering not as a form of public service but as an antidote for it."

Really? I'd have thought the world's most charitable and voluntaristic nation might see volunteering as a good in and of itself.

This is the problem with national service mania: It seeks to fix what ain't broke. No, national service isn't slavery. But it contributes to a slave mentality, at odds with American tradition. It assumes that work not done for the government isn't really for the "common good."

"The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society," Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously observed. "The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself."

Moynihan was right, of course. But politics can change a culture for the worse, too. Indoctrinating an entire generation with the idea that public service is something you do at the government's behest would not only steamroll the culture, it would help fewer people in the process.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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goldberg
Once again you've tried to demonize an entirely logical solution to a complex problem. You have the gall to pretend to "defend" the rights of the welfare-supported throng who would benefit from such a plan (as would society as a whole), just to attempt to discredit Obama. You are a hypocrite.

service
If forced to volunteer it would no longer be volunteer duty.

And what, not going to tell you,
is the complex problem? What are you talking about? Are you "Not going to tell us?" If the "welfare-supported throng" is not willing to work for themselves, why do you suppose they will suddenly see the light when required to serve? Put another way, would you like someone to clean your home out of an internal motivation to help you, or would you rather have a conscripted worker show up, who, by the way, has no job or money to speak of. I'm sure they would like to clean your house out... literally.

Eleanor would require more

Talk about working for the Government. In the 1930s Eleanor Roosevelt was pushing the idea found in the book "Prohibiting Poverty," by a Mrs. Prestonia Mann Martin. (Google it)

The preamble is as follows:

ALL OF THE NATION'S YOUNG PEOPLE OF BOTH SEXES, BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 26, AS A CONTINUATION OF THEIR PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION, SHALL BE INDUSTRIALLY ORGANIZED TO PRODUCE, UNDER SCIENTIFIC DIRECTION, A SUFFICIENCY OF THE NECESSARY GOODS AND SERVICES TO CONSTITUTE A DECENT LIVELIHOOD AND TO DISTRIBUTE THESE GOODS AND SERVICES WITHOUT BUYING OR SELLING THEM, TO THE ENTIRE POPULATION.

After that they could spend their life producing and enjoying the luxuries of life.

If WW II had not started when it did and FDR had to win the war, what a Socialist mess our country would have been.

Voluntary: i.e.: of one's free will
The BHO premise has at least a kernel of merit. As an incentive program for those students so inclined to accept government control of their lives. To "not going to tell you" may I ask what, in the article, makes Goldberg a hypocrite? Do you belong to that mesmerized group who believe BHO will somehow bring about a "happy-ever-after" existence for all of us? Wake up! Government is not and cannot ever be the answer to all that afflicts this country. Free enterprise, respect for God and country and all human life - that is the root we have to re-discover.

Mirror Image of Lenin ? OR ??
Obama is the mirror image of ???? in History:

Class warfare
Forced Servitude
Ration:: FOOD, Energy, Transportation
Take from the rich to give to the parasites
tax every business out of business
confiscate the Oil Companies
Regulate the salaries of CEO's
Punish personal achievements
etc.

FREEDOMS to be lost::::
We warned you:

elimination of Dodge ball
no sledding in Iowa
NO flag slaute in schools
No reading and writing to be taught in schools
NO trans Fats
No smoking
NO cell phones

NOW the freedom to work or not work is going away:

Will this mandatory community service be punishment before a crime is committed ?

What happened to our Freedoms to "CHOOSE"
OH yes, only the freedom to kill a baby at the time of brith is left:

What's Absent from Obama's "Service"?
How about serving in the military . . . notice THAT never comes up in any of his speeches.

JUST ANOTHER CHANGE
Seems to me that everyone wanting to CHANGE the foundation and fabric of America should simply CHANGE where they live and go to a country more to their liking or way of thinking.
If our government wants servitude, the 13th Amendment already gives that ability to the government, stating criminals can be forced to serve. So why not enforce this ability and have the 11 million or more illegal aliens (commiting a crime by being here illegally) do community service, or are they exempt from that too.


Obama Urges Parental Responsibility

I agree!

HP-The standard Barack Obama venue lately has been high schools. Truman High School, Theodore Roosevelt High School, Jefferson High School.

The Democratic presidential candidate has been pitching an audience-pleasing message of economic populism to crowds of a few thousand packed into each gymnasium. But he gets some of his loudest applause when he segues to education _ and a bit of a lecture to mothers and fathers on how to be parents.

Sure, there is the usual critique of current government policies. But the cheering peaks with a dose of tough talk.

“Parents if you don’t parent, we can’t improve our schools,” he said. “You’ve got to parent. You’ve got to turn off the television set in your house once in a while, you’ve got to put the video game away once in a while.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/obama-urges-parent al-responsibility

And just what the hell do call...
..the current punitive level of taxation?

I must admit to being conflicted
On the one hand, as one who adheres to a libertarian philosophy, the Constitution does not address federal government freebies. Nor does it allow for the taking from one and giving to another. In ANY circumstance! So I would be for the elimination of all these BS programs that artificially inflate so many costs including the cost of an education.

On the other hand, believing that the ship has already sailed and we'll never make it back to port, these social programs are more than likely here to stay. That being the case, IT IS NOT SLAVER OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE to require students of college age to perform community service to receive financial assistance. They can always forgo the service and give up the aid. No servitude required.

HOWEVER, this is not the same as requiring middle and high schoolers to perform service. Again, unless it is under the guise that they will receive assitance for college tuition.

To sum up, either get rid of all the social BS programs or it is just fine to require someone to earn aid via community service.

The difference
between Workfare (where those who suck at the Federal or State You Know What are required to perform actual labour in order to receive their cash, much like the rest of us have to do) and Compulsory Volunteerism (an oxymoron, in case you were educated after 1964) -- is that forcing a Child (aged 17-30) to attend at a nursing home and clean toilets, empty bedpans, bathe elderly people and so on ... or even to walk through the subway train picking up all the garbage her peers have strewn broadcast and ankle deep... will be done reluctantly and with resentment, sloppily and frequently by sabotaging the program to prove They Are Not The Boss Of Me.

I taught my kids to do charitable work because it is the right thing to do, and to pick up after themselves and occasionally after their piggy friends and colleagues, because we all have an interest in living in clean, decent, well ordered surroundings. My youngest boy is especially solicitous of elderly women, and has been since he was a tot, and surprised me with his patience and good humour in dealing with children at Ronald McDonald House when he was only 8. My older boy is concerned with neglected children and those whose parents are doing their best but cannot quite keep up. They did not need the government to compel them to this attitude. That is why God gave them a mother.

But then Obamas mother was busy crusading, and seeking serial and surrogate fathers for him. Apparently all she taught him was that if he needed help, he had to get it from somebody else. No wonder he wants to externalize his own broken home.

Welfare for Everybody
Sounds like Obama wants to resurrect FDR's Civilian Conservation Corp (CCC). Instead of trying to reduce welfare programs he wants to put every young man and woman on a new welfare program.

Harvard University did a terrible job teaching Obama's class about freedom and capitalism. Excuse me, I forgot Ivy League college professors subscribe to Communism and collectivism, which means Barack learned his lessons well.

AudiR10
"I taught my kids to do charitable work because it is the right thing to do,"

And it is this that will be destroyed by this latest of liberal initiatives if successfully *imposed*.

So I don't have to volunteer and I can leave their rewards on the table? Think of the class warfare opportunities in that: only the "rich" can afford to skip it, oh, those horrible rich!

But the moral considerations on the side, consider the practical. In my college years I was pressed for money. I would have cleaned up garbage on the streets or planted trees or (what?) for tuition and stipend money. Who's paying for this, and can it be afforded, and is that all they get, temporarily clean streets (at least in some places)? I'm not sure they (the feds) can pay all that without expecting something gainful in return.

WOW! Thanks AudiR10!
You need to have your own column here on TH! I love "electronic binkies"! And your last line, " No wonder he wants to externalize his own broken home" is amazingly insightful.

Let's start a petition to get AudiR10 on TH's payroll to write a weekly column. The once-a-month-or-so blog entry is just not enough!!

Can't all the conservatives
just move to some island somewhere and start over? Maybe we should put all our money together and charter a space ship to Mars.

This country just keeps getting crazier and crazier. I don't think there is any redeeming it.

If I want a culture of service...
..I'll apply at McDonalds or Wendy's.

Audi beat me to it!
and Profblog should have included in the 12:44 smackdown that if forced work for welfare is "wrong", then why should forced "volunteerism" be right?

"Voluntary" ideas like this one are classic new-speak. Re-define the term so that the positives long associated with it become attached to the "new" definition, then move on to another word when the appropriated one becomes soiled by the new use. I'll bet that if the Flintstones cartoon were just developed now that the theme song wouldn't sign off with "we'll have a gay old time!" due to the change of meaning (within our lifetime) for that word.

I've heard some ridiculous things but...
this tops 'em. Many private schools nowdays have "mandatory" service requirements, and while a few kids, taught by their parents what service really means, take it seriously, the majority try to find the easiest way out, and then do just the least possible to get by. In fact, at my last school (I'm a teacher), several service organizations requested that we stop sending them volunteers because they were more of a problem than a help. Didn't we see the same thing with quite a few drafted soldiers in Vietnam? Forcing someone to do something they don't believe in will only result in substandard performance and result in less actual "service." Nothing done out of duty is done as well as something done out of passion!

Yes To B2slim and Audi
Forced volunteering the young to do "community service", was one of the ingredients for communism in Russia and China. The list B2slim gives are all correct on how Obama wishes to change America, and the recipe does make a socialist communistic country.

Also, you might think that forcing young students for "volunteer service" would in the end give them a new set of values, but it will have the opposite effect. Forcing American kids who are lazy, have no work ethic, and are in general obnoxious to work will only make them more disgruntled, they will do a half-arsed job, and as they become adults more than likely will never volunteer for anything or be charitable.

Obama...
...Chains You Can Believe In

Arbeit Macht Frei
Here are some pesky facts:

1)The Federal Goverment underwrites college loans and Pell Grants -to the tune of $400 billion a year.

2)Universities see these student loans has nothing more than a massive subsidy. Consequently college tuition has grown on average of 14% per year for the last 25 years. Today, even state colleges charge $12000/year for tuition alone. In 1994, it averaged $3000/year. Universities have made out like gangbusters. Now, about anyone can go to college, but a 4 year degree now entails a student to go into debt about $65000. The student will fork over a sizebale portion of his earnings over 20 years for that piece of paper.

3)Obama now will compound things by actually forcing students to work in order to go into debt in order to get a piece of paper. Heaven help the Gender Study's or Poly Sci major. Adding insult to injury, these students will be forced to work for free in order to go into debt, which will render a totally worthless degree. Most of the soft science students only goals in grad school (ie even more debt) in order to one day get a cushy job working at said institution.

This could actually work in reverse. The student may decide college is not worth the hassle or the expense, and he/she may decide to become a bricklayer or car mechanic instead.

The Meaning of Truth, again,
As I said in my response to Dr. Sowell earlier, what else should we expect from people who deny the existence of absolute truth as a matter of principle?

When you don't believe in truth you also don't believe that words have real meanings. And when you believe that words have no real meaning then you are free to redefine those words to say the exact opposite of what they mean.

Thus "The Right of the People" in the 2nd Amendment becomes the right of the government-sponsored militia, "Charity" becomes confiscatory taxation to enable the lazy to remain lazy, and "Volunteering" becomes forced enslavement to the government.

VOLUNTEERISM?
OBAMA IS NOT ASKING AMERICANS TO HELP ANYONE ! He is "tellING " them they will be obliged to do as the governme demands them to do? LIKE ; ALL AMERICANS SHOULD LEARN OTHER LANGUAGES? WHAT'S NEXT! AMERICA IS A FREE COUNTRY WITH THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHAT WE WE BELIEVE IS RIGHT! THAT RIGHT IS BEING INTERFERED WITH IN OBAMA'S MIND AND IF ELECTED IT WILL BE LAW! I HOPE ALL YOU "SLAP-CLAPPING- OBAMA VOTERS" UNDERSTAND THIS IS YOUR FUTURE WITH BARACK HUSEIN OBAMA WHO WILL MAKE A LAW DEMANDING ALL AMERICANS TO SPEAK FOREIGN LANGUAGES AND OTHER OBLIGATIONS THAT OUR FORE-FATHERS DID NOT SIGN IN OUR CONSTITUTION!
braincell1@aol.com

Community Service Jobs for Students
1)Work at the local Democratic Party Headquarters licking stamps.
2)Driving the local Democratic mayor or County Commisioner to the golf course.
3)Caddying the local Democratic Mayor as he golfs.
4)Baby sit for the local Democratic big-wigs.
5)Mow the big-wigs yards
6)Set up for the local Democratic Fund-raisers (esp useful for those majoring in food-sciences).
7)Attend Climate Change rallies
8)Attend Climate Change protests in front of the offices of the local utlilities.
9)Attend Big Food protests in front of the local fast-food restaurants
10)Sing old 60 protest songs at the local homeless shelter (could be useful for music majors).
11)Run naked through the local forest (could be useful for those studying politically oriented performance art).
12)Read "Jimmy has 2 Daddies" at the local library during the Summer Children's Reading Hour (warning: may require 4th grade reading skills).
13)Create and print photos of Obama, with the Caption "Ein Volk, Ein Fuerher, Ein Reich"
14)Plaster every public space with above mentioned posters.

Didn't We the People
fight a war (II) - so we (and a lot of other people overseas) wouldn't have to do the goose step all over the place.

LeischaC
Indentured Servitude is a crime -or at least it was until recently. What is ironic is that many of the college adminstrators today were college students in the late 60s, who "dropped out" for a year in order to indulge in group sex, consume large amounts of LSD, Heroin, and Smack. In 1968, hundreds of thousands of college students made their way to Haight Asbury in order to participate in the Summer of Love. Now these aging hipsters demand that students "get involved".

Thanks, Kevin, for the latest edition ..
to my bumper sticker collection.

OBAMA
Chains you can believe in!

My current ones are:

Support Separation of
Church and Hate
NO DALI-BAMA

and

OBAMA: Right Color
WRONG Values!

Amazing
It sounds like a bunch right-wing Alec Baldwins in here, feeding off of each other's indignant rage. The things some people come up with simply amaze me. Take a breath, calm down, and approach the subject like conservatives should, rationally.

The real topic should be what can we do about Mr. McCain's stance on government-led 'volunteering'.

If You are Going to Lie
best do it early in you article. Goldberg is absolutely full of crap on this issue. He writes, "(Obama) would see that these goals are met by, among other things, attaching strings to federal education dollars. If you don't make kids report for duty, he's essentially telling schools and college kids, you'll lose money you can't afford to lose. In short, he'll make service compulsory by merely compelling schools to make it compulsory."

I checked Obama policy statements and Obama does not propose making ANYTHING mandatory. He proposes a $4,000 education credit for 100 hours of volunteer service. He proposes that 25%of work study jobs be community service oriented. There is NOTHING that forces any student to be involved in anything.


a thought...
Let me see if I understand the theory here.
I work for pay. Once all the taxes are calculated roughly 65% of my pay is confiscated by government agencies, through the threat of imprisonment.

Now, under BO’s plan, my child must work to obtain money that was already worked for by me and confiscated from me.

Not only is my child forced to work for my money, my child is then forced to pay back that same money with interest.

Last thought: this thinking leaves me to wonder of African- Americans will be exempt from this compulsory volunteerism.

the term volunteer
would no longer mean the willingness to help others and your community without pay. The term would now mean, if implemented, forced to work without pay. I am all for people who receive welfare and food stamps being encouraged to help others, and learn a job. But to force young people in school to volunteer is just ridiculous. They understand what it truly is forced work.

AmericaFirst
Here's some rationality for you:

"set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year"

Of course this is campaign rhetoric, but let's say he does exactly what he said (the Donkey Kong-ress will provide no opposition).

School attendance is compulsory to different ages in different states. Therefore the 50 hours of service will also be compulsory for all government school students.

Questions raised:

Who will define "service"?

Will the compulsion be extended to private-schooled and home-schooled students? If not, why should they be exempt? If so, how?

Arbeit macht frei, indeed...

Jack
You should know better than to consult or rely on Obama's website, which changes hourly. Obama gave a speech, which in his own words laid out the details. Of course, he changes his mind on a daily basis, so I don't blame you for getting confused.

Rosemary
"Didn't We the Peoplefight a war (II) - so we (and a lot of other people overseas) wouldn't have to do the goose step all over the place."

Yes we did, but the armed forces then were overwhelmingly made up of draftees.

M Sederoff writes:
Can't all the conservatives
just move to some island somewhere and start over? Maybe we should put all our money together and charter a space ship to Mars.

You wish, utopian lefty.
It sure would make your life easier, wouldn't it?
No-one to point out that the Shangri-La you live in is only within the narrow confines of your skull, thereby destroying your self-image as the savior of decency.
Take another toke and return to your home planet, child.

Old Requirement for Graduation
Some of our high schools require "community service" for graduation. So every year the charities and local government agencies are swarmed with inexperienced teens with an attitude.

In our agency it resulted in babysitting these teens otherwise we had torn upholstry, lost office supplies and destroyed computers.

Let us keep volunteerism voluntary! Don't require something that can only be given from the heart.

Doc Liberty
Obama's plan only applies to students who take out student loans for college. However, you do bring up the point of "mission creep", in which advocates would seek to make "community service" compulsory for all children.

I can just picture it now: every neighborhood, village, and town filled with children marching off to "work" every morning with thier shovels slung over thier shoulders, singing "Der Horst Wesel".

JPK
First off,

Before you check anywhere, in all honesty, do you know what Obama actually said? Or, are you assuming that because it was reported here it must be true? tell me honestly.

Secondly, if you have read the text of the speech, woudl you mind sending me a link. I couldn't get the text, which would leave me with only his web-site.

loved JPK's list
Your list sounds alot like a job discription of a "community organizer" for the south side of Chicago!

Has the great BO ever provided a list of some concrete accomplishments he made in his years as a community organizer. I understand he claims to have increased Dem voter registration.

He must have pointed to the great success Dems have had in running cities like Detroit and Washington DC as the reason to register and vote Dem!

Doc Liberty
Good point. I should have mentioned my opposition to any mandated service for middle and high schoolers. Taking a federal loan with such a stipulation is one thing, but to force children to 'volunteer' must be keep beyond the government's reach.

jack @ 10:28
So by your own numbers, Obama is offering to pay $40/hr in education credits to "volunteers". Forget the students, a lot of us would like to earn tax-free money like that!

Service
Interesting topic here. I am NOT an Obama supporter and think he is exactly what we don't need but I have long thought that after graduation, requiring students to perform some form of country service (military, Peace Corp, etc.) is not a bad idea. Most kids leaving high school haven't a clue as to what they want to do and one has only to look at the present state of affairs to realize they have some serious growing up to do (as would be expected). I recall a long time ago when I graduated, I thought I knew it all and after my military service I realized how little I did know and how smart my parents actually were. I had a much greater respect and appreciation for the things I had here after seeing the lives people in other countries lead. As far as I can tell, there was no downside to the experience and I gained the GI bill to help with my college which I then knew was a privilege to be able to attend. I didn't have that perspective prior to service. My life wasn't adversely affected by the short time I spent in 'involuntary servitude' (although I admit to thinking that a few times while onboard) and I didn't suffer any mental or physical scars. The gains I received in insights, experiences, and maturity far outweigh any perceived 'infringement' to my rights. We have become a country of lazy, unappreciative, 'it's all about me' people and, while I understand the infringement argument, I think that this might not be a bad thing. I realize the military is not for everyone and there are alternatives that could be substituted. I am asking other Vets out there if they think a stint in the service or Peace Corp would help or hurt todays kids?

Jack
"So when I'm President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you'll have done 17 weeks of service."

http://www.gopachy.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2338 4&page=1

Putting the democrats in charge
Why do democrats insist on crapping on the things that work.
The Boy Scouts not gay enough so we will ignore the good they have done throughout the past hundred years until we make them look like the Progressive America we want to see.

Freedom of speach where the public made the - n word unacceptable the democrats make it a crime with hate speach. Can burn the flag though. Hate speach an inability to speak ones mind because words determined by your democrat leadership can expand your time in jail, say for desturbing the peace outside a progressive gathering on some college campus? But they will call Bush the fasciest.

MellorSJ

and I agree on something (his 626am post).

Pollywog
you wrote:

"We have become a country of lazy, unappreciative, 'it's all about me' people and, while I understand the infringement argument, I think that this [mandatory public service] might not be a bad thing."

Benito Mussolini was quipped:

“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”

How much liberty are you willing to give up in order to achieve a "social goal"?

BTW, I served 2 stints in the military.

A weird malady
What is with this bizarre need by white conservatives to embarass themselves by stretching slavery comparisons? It is possible that Obama, as a black American, recognizes that predicating aid to college on national service does not even begin to approximate slavery in this country. (And since when do conservatives believe there is a right to college that is being violated here anyway?) But it is also possible that he knows this being a litterate American without the penchant for insane comparisons.

Lon - USEFUL IDIOT!
What is it with you white LIBERALS that you are willing to KISS OBAMA'S A** on every issue. Are you so ridden with white guilt that you cannnot even think at all? You white LIBERALS are the perfect little useful idiots that Obama needs to install his fascist IDIOCRACY!

Neo kommie tactics...
...always coercively forcing citizens into socialist activities. This was one of Fidel's Castro's tactics, to organize "volunteer" youth forces to go out and cut sugar cane, live among the poorest families to try to "educate" them in the proper ways of the revolution, and various other Utopian-sounding projects. The bottom line is: it is coercive because, in its ultimater format B. Hussein wants ALL college tuition to be paid by the central government, i.e., subsidized education all the way through university. But now we see the inklings of the truth behind all these freebies - SLAVERY.

B. O.
"Instead of sharing his miraculous solutions to Islamic terrorism, a weak economy and illegal immigration, like a windup toy or a very backward parrot, he just keeps repeating, “Hope” and “Change.” "

~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe he is the 'Enervating bunnie whose battery never dies'?


Obamamania Meeting:
Screams of...

Hope! Hope! Hope!

Change! Change! Change!

Then our Obamamesiah, gives a sly smile and thinks,

"Hope I win"!

"Change, you will"!

(Smirk, simper.)

JPK
Your take is that asking citizens to give 2 years of their life in some form of country service is akin to something Mussolini envisioned. My take is a little different but I welcome your input. We 'force' kids to go to school (at least until 16) because we know it is in their best interests although it certainly curtails their 'liberty'. If the liberty of which you speak is dear to you, I don't see how requiring individuals to give a little for having and enjoying it is wrong. Most things worth having are worth an effort on your part and most I see today have precious little respect for the country that allows them so much. As an aside, did you gain so little from your stints in service that you see it as no value to others?

Chuck

Jonah: Love your work. More government intrusion into our lives is not the answer. I believe that President Clinton introduced a domestic service program that has yielded very little service but carries an annual budget in excess of $800 million. Democrats should be (but are not) embarrased about the failure of most of the programs that they have sponsored.

Pollywog72_74

Pollywog72_74
"Location: TX

Reply # 9
Date: Jul 9, 2008 - 11:10 AM EST Subject: Service
Interesting topic here. I am NOT an Obama supporter and think he is exactly what we don't need but I have long thought that after graduation, requiring students to perform some form of country service (military, Peace Corp, etc.) is not a bad idea. Most kids leaving high school haven't a clue as to what they want to do and one has only to look at the present state of affairs to realize they have some serious growing up to do (as would be expected). I recall a long time ago when I graduated, I thought I knew it all and after my military service I realized how little I did know and how smart my parents actually were."

~~~

Pollywog (Coast Guard?)

I too have had similar thoughts and posted such once.

Among my thoughts...

1. Must complete 2 Year NATIONAL service, following Marine Corps Boot camp, excepting only the pysically or mentally incapable.

2. Must provide some NATIONAL service, such as Military, Border GUARD (not patrol), Forestry, Highway / Bridge support / construction...

(Please note emphasis on NATIONAL service, i.e. OUR NATION !)

3. Failure to complete any part of this service means No "Right" to vote after.

4. Results, for the vast majority, would be, maturity, can-do spirit, respect for others, feeling of teamwork...



Rats
(and mice)



BO'S COLLECTIVISM
Just like Obama's 0-5 program to indoctinate kids at an early age, here's another attempt to brainwash the youth of America into believing not on self reliance, but on the virtues of service to the nanny state.

"If democracy, in essence, means the abolition of class domination, then why should not a socialist minister charm the whole bourgeois world by orations on CLASS COLLABORATION?" - LENIN

reply to Rondak
Ah, the defenders of the Confederacy have arisen on TH. Back to the Old South with its charm, grace, and slaves. Are there any conservatives who find rants like this embarassing to their movement? Didn't think so.
Rondak, go read the declarations of secession by the states that formed the Confederacy and you'll find that defending the right of whites to own blacks was a big part of the argument for secession. Historical revisionism like yours is pathetic.

Federal Money with No Strings?
I'm no Obama supporter; I will be voting for Bob Barr. But IF we're going to provide federal funds to needy college students (which I could argue either way), then I have no problem with making them work for it. That is voluntary; if they don't like the terms, they can find a better deal elsewhere - I don't remember a passage in the Constitution/Bill of Rights stating that everyone is entitled to a no-strings, federally funded college education.

Working for such funds would attach value to them instead of making them appear to be handouts or entitlements. Additionally, the college students would have an incentive to make the best of being in school, because they would, or at least should, realize that if they did not do well, the fruits of their labor would have been wasted. And I'd make them earn the funds first to avoid the lackluster performance in their tasks that might occur were they performed after the fact. If the students did not perform acceptably, they would get dismissed from the program.

If memory serves, once a work requirement was attached to welfare, the welfare roles diminished and former welfare recipients learned job skills and became contributing members of society. I don't see how this idea is any different. If we're going to dole out federal funds, there should be strings.

Required service
Instead of forced servitude, why can't we just teach children the value of serving others? Of course, mommy and daddy would have to put down the cocktail or the golf clubs and lead by example, and teachers would have to take a break from reading the latest NEA newsletter and lead student organizations that encourage and develop service-minded people. Instead of whining about the youth of America, we should lead the way, get out there and find a cause to support. Then we will have the moral authority to pass the legacy on.

PollyWog
I think you have a total misunderstanding of how our society was founded. Most people do not value liberty, and would surely give it up in order to serve some nebulous social goal. This is true of both social conservatives (who really aren't that conservative) and liberals. Obama's exhortations are reminiscient of the old Third Way politicians (ie Progressives) of the 1890-1920 era. Ideas of "National" or Community Service (this term came from the Nazis vocabulary "Gemeinshaftdeinst") have a pedigree that is over 75 years old.

If this doesn't alarm you, what will? The fact that so many people have no problem with the Federal goverment conscripting 8-22 year olds into national service is appalling. And anyone who believes it would end at 50 hours a year maximum time served is a fool. The idea that the goverment is there to serve the people is fast eroding. People like you essientially think that as long as the social goal is good, the people are here to serve the State.

BTW,The Liberties as defined by the Constitution are non-negotiable. Involuntary Servitude is prohibited in ALL CASES -no matter how many people think otherwise.


The problem
with this wonderful SOUNDING proposal is that if imposed on people, once they had completed their mandatory hours, they would consider themselves done. No further obligations. Truly, that's why libs want higher taxes--then they consider themselves done with regard to poverty. Obligation fulfilled.

It would decrease volunteerism (the kind that's voluntary) which Americans do now in droves.

Typical liberal idea- sounds good, has bad unintended consequences.

GESTELL
What I find hilarious is that a Massachussetts' "open minded" liberal has the audacity to imply that all conservatives are racist.

Speaking of historical revisionism, did you have any problem with your state Supreme Court finding a right to gay marriage in a state constitition over 125 years old written by John Adams?

Hey Jonah
What's with the JFK cult stuff? If you can recall (maybe not), but JFK's call was for "volunteerism", not compulsory service like these two so-called "leaders". Neither one of these "candidates" have any true leadership abilities. It's who can raise the most money, supported BY the most money! What a sad state of affairs!

Community Service Ideas
What is the difference between mandated community service and mandated slavery by the taxpayer, who must work until May solely for the government in order to cover the government tax burden? A much better community service proposal would be to require anyone living off government handouts – Congress included – to perform community service in the areas from which they benefit. For a Congressman, that means answering phones and untangling red tape of specific victims of government regulations. For a welfare recipient, it means working for a local government-sponsored job program agency. For a food stamp recipient, it means spending a few weekends picking crops – the kind of job that Republicans tell us Americans just will not do.

However, if students must do community service, here are some suggestions:
1. Volunteer for an advocacy group that opposes mandated volunteer service.
2. Create a First Amendment nonprofit dedicated to banning the Fairness Doctrine from reinstatement for talk radio.
3. Help advocacy groups that celebrate the Second Amendment.
4. Form a patriotic American organization dedicated to traditional values.
5. Help an organization that monitors political bias in academia.

Any of the above should aggravate liberals sufficiently to make them want to undo the community service requirement.

Nanny state womb to tomb

Obama is all too willing (and he's certainly not alone) to decide for us unwashed masses what's good for us. As many of his statements made during the campaign season demonstrate, he is elitist and arrogant.

To use a Perot phrase from 1992, "that giant sucking sound" we'll be hearing is the gov't taking more & more & more & more of our $'s in taxes.

Rastas y Ratones
Hmm. You are even more hardcore than I am. I'm sure JPK will have a coronary over your proposals. I feel too many people are of the mind that just being born here qualifies you to all the goodies without having to lift a finger to earn them. Nice utiopian concept. While I'm sure the national service concept could be taken too far and we would have to be vigilant to make sure it doesn't exceed it's purpose, it still seems like a small price to pay for the advantages we enjoy. Plus it gives you perspective, something sadly lacking in a lot of folks. Personally, I think military service should be a mandatory requirement for any representative guvmnt office. Obama's take of a few hours worked by students is a far cry from what I am proposing or envisioning.

I read and enjoy your posts. Keep em coming. USN by the way...

Obama is bad news
Why is it that every policy or idea that comes out of Obama's mouth gets the privalege of being debated? Can't you people see things for what they are? Higher taxes...BAD, Lower taxes...GOOD, Socialism... BAD, Capitalism... Good, Sitting down and having coffee with islamic extremists to "discuss" plans for WW3... Bad, Zero tolerance for evil dictators threatening to obliterate you and allied countries...Good...Enough is enough. Everyone can not be rich. If they were who would pick up your trash each week, or come fix your toilet when it stops working? On top of that, who wants Government to tell you that you HAVE to go fix someone's toilet, instead of, say, driving Nascar? Are the American people really this dillusional as they appear? Come on, people, wake up!! You will never be able to force people to "volunteer" for community service, and having said that, think of the end result of that "forced" service to be rendered. So why are we even writing blogs about this guy? Spread the news, Obama's bad, McCain Good(sort of), but at least with McCain we'll be able to choose another viable candidate in 4 years. I have a feeling we're going to be stuck with Barrack "Hussein" Obama for a lot longer than that.

Even better still...
let us toss out mandatory "volunteerism" (oxymoron intended)for a government that has no paid employees! Just imagine citizens having no other taxes besides a small contibution to the U. S. Navy, roads, and only those things provided for in the Constitution. Consider that the real tax burden in the U.S., taking into account every state and local tax (excise, property, sales, license fee, etc.) is certainly at least 50% of every dollar earned. Then imagine those people now free of having to work 40 hours a week. Hmmm- two 10 hour workdays a week to net the same amount of real income. That would take care of unemployment as jobs would be plentiful. It would also erase the worst traffic congestion, pollution,the need for more roads, expensive carpool lanes, and severely limit the need to import foreign oil. The benefits to society and to individual liberty would be virtually immediate. What could the citizen do with those extra 5 days a week? First, he could "tithe" 10% of his month (3 days) to working in jobs usually done by government. The rest of the time he could educate himself and his children, recreate, and discover the world around him. It's not pie-in-the-sky thinking---it is absolute reality if we ever choose to make it so.

FROG

FROG
Location: KY

Reply # 51
Date: Jul 9, 2008 - 7:57 AM EST Subject: WOW! Thanks AudiR10!
You need to have your own column here on TH! I love "electronic binkies"! And your last line, " No wonder he wants to externalize his own broken home" is amazingly insightful.

Let's start a petition to get AudiR10 on TH's payroll to write a weekly column. The once-a-month-or-so blog entry is just not enough!!

~~~

AMEN ! I second that motion.

AudiR10 posts are, to me, A MUST READ !

Preach it Brother FROG, Preach it !

Rats
(and mice)



Pollywog
You wrote:

"I feel too many people are of the mind that just being born here qualifies you to all the goodies without having to lift a finger to earn them. Nice utiopian concept. While I'm sure the national service concept could be taken too far and we would have to be vigilant to make sure it doesn't exceed it's purpose, it still seems like a small price to pay for the advantages we enjoy"

What goodies exactly are you referring to - Constiutional Rights? Believe it or not we did have national organizations that came close to what Rastas' desires. The forerunners to the American Legions, affectionately dubbed Wilson's Goon Squads were established for those who didn't go into the service in WWI. These uniformed forerunners to Mussolini's Black Shirts became Wilson's private army to "educate" the ignorant, "motivate" the slackers, and give to the dissenters some TLC. By 1919, there were over 800,000 of these National Service Volunteers imposing Wilson's vision of Utopia. Many of his aims were similar to yours; young people needed to be motivated; citizens needed to be given lessons in civic virture; and most of all people and organizations that did not "toe the line" needed to have thier attitudes adjusted. In the end, dozens of Newspapers were closed down; thousands of citizens were beaten and jailed without due process for no other reason then speaking German or questioning the State. An entire network of spies proliferated businesses, farms, and schools in an effort to "mold the citizens to national policy". FDR did something similar with his Blue Eagle Society.

Mussolini was so impressed with Wilson's programs of National Service that he wrote him a congratulatory letter and created a similar structure in Italy.

Funny how about every generation, politicians (especially Liberal ones) bring up this nasty idea.

Pollywog72_74
Pollywog72_74
Location: TX

Reply # 2 [My screen puts # in reverse order]
Date: Jul 9, 2008 - 2:20 PM EST Rastas y Ratones
Hmm. You are even more hardcore than I am. I'm sure JPK will have a coronary over your proposals. I feel too many people are of the mind that just being born here qualifies you to all the goodies without having to lift a finger to earn them. Nice utiopian concept. While I'm sure the national service concept could be taken too far and we would have to be vigilant to make sure it doesn't exceed it's purpose, it still seems like a small price to pay for the advantages we enjoy. Plus it gives you perspective, something sadly lacking in a lot of folks. Personally, I think military service should be a mandatory requirement for any representative guvmnt office. Obama's take of a few hours worked by students is a far cry from what I am proposing or envisioning.

I read and enjoy your posts. Keep em coming. USN by the way...

~~~

We can only hope all lefties have 'coronas', just so they are easier to short out.

Obscure 'Electrical' joke there.

In my original post I had several other points, but doubtless was building on other posters, and sadly, I did not save to a file.



USN FTG2, 1960-1966, Tincan, DESRON 9, after over a year of service schools, I went to sea, spending most of the time in WESTPAC, included many hours of chasing our Carriers at 30 Knots, as rescue mission. Sometimes this got rough. The carrier did not notice, but we made about as many Nautical miles up and down as we did forward.


The Wharf Rat AKA
Rats
(and mice)

Rastas y Ratones
Did the Westpac vacation a couple times myself on destroyer escort circa 72-74 as MM3.

JPK,
I understand your concerns but I see things happening that I never would have thought possible not too many decades ago. I see a total lack of respect for our country and for the people who came before and made this the greatest country in the world. I see people contributing nothing and expecting everything in return. Considering the sacrifices made by our forefathers, expecting a small contribution from you is, to me, not asking too much. To coin an old cliche, freedom isn't free. Maybe conscription isn't the answer but tell me what is cause everyone getting a free ride doesn't appear to me to be having a desirable effect. Service didn't hurt me and certainly won't hurt young folks today. Don't like war, serve in the peace corp but serve. I realize I won't change your mind and equally sure you won't change mine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree friend.

Forced Servatude:
I'm in forced servatude every day. I have to work to pay the taxes the government requires. And I have to work to pay my bill collectors. The difference is that I work at a place that I am willing to work at.

As far as volunterism is concerned, my wife volunteers for herself, me, and half the town so I'm not worried about a lack of it. And many of our youth do as well, fixing up houses, etc. to help the needy.

Our churches and communities used to take care of the needy until the government decided on Welfare. Now when someone in the area needs help, half the people insist "the government should do something." The article here is correct. Keep the government out of it.

WIND AND WILLOW
It is obvious that the Messaiah a young black boob from the midwest has never understood the cause of the War of 1812, it dealt with the Brits over impressed servitude. American's just hate that, ask a Brit.

As someones buttboy, hot air and no spine indicate he must have studied the Wind and the Willow exclusively. Symbolism over Substance.

OBAMA'S SACRIFICE FOR ALTRUISM !!
"The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it's yours. But to win it requires total dedication and a total break with the world of your past, with the doctrine that man is sacrificial animal who exists for the pleasure of others. Fight for the value of your person. Fight for the virtue of your pride. Fight for the essence, which is man, for his sovereign rational mind. Fight with the radiant certainty and the absolute rectitude of knowing that yours is the morality of life and yours is the battle for any achievement, any value, any grandeur, any goodness, any joy that has ever existed on this earth."
John Galt quote that ended AR's last public speech (New Orleans Nov 1981)

"When "the common good" of a society is regarded as something apart from and superior to the individual good of its members, it means that the good of some men takes precedence over the good of others, with those others consigned to the status of sacrificial animals."
-- Ayn Rand, "What is Capitalism?" Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal



Get a chuckle about
I have heard VP Michelle Obama tell her audiences that they will see a different America when her husband takes over. They will have to work and work hard. I chuckle because that is the very last thing the current generation of young liberals want to do. I wonder who she is preaching to. Often she gives those "pep" speeches to a primarily minority audience and so should be draw any conclusions about that? Who do the Obama's think should work more?

I personally think that every citizen should be asked to serve this country for at least 1 year in some capacity. I would not look at this time as any sort of punishment but hopefully an experience that will give each young person some character. I think this is where Barack and VP Michelle are going with this, but unfortunately they make it sound like an order. Like, clean your room or else!!!! Maybe this is exactly what Jesse Jackson was commenting about today when he slipped and criticized Barack privately when the mic was "hot".

Slavery?
How do you define slavery? The slaves we imported from Africa got about half of what they produced: It took that just to support them. Many slaves had jobs off the plantation, and paid their owners some percentage of what they made. This relieved the owners of having to care for the slaves and left the slaves in a better condition than the American citizen who pays more than half of what he earns in taxes.

The Democrat party is now and always was the party of slavery. Ask anyone in the top half.

JPK , Pollywog and The Warf Rat! ATTN !

Please...


After re-reading all posts, slams, slurs (OK some of my own), and,

what I see here is an argument that is confounded by semantics !

We all three, see the same things, but are confused by what the other parties are saying.

I apologize!


I, too was confused by the emotional aspects.

Yes, the Constitution does NOT allow what is proposed. Period!

But, Mandatory Military Subscription was mandated for several wars, and several years.

Was this legal? Under Emergency War Power Acts, Maybe. I don't know.

Once a precedent has been made, and supported by the majority, we are screwed if we want it to never happen again.

So, now what do we do?

Serious question. What do WE DO?

Do we try to turn back the clock that refuses to be turned back, or do we unite to guide the clock in the correct direction?

I suggest the latter. I say YES!

I have already stated that Marine Boot Camp, and significant NATIONAL SERVICE for a minimum of 2 years is what such a program should envision !

On the other hand, straight from 'LOW' (jape here) school to a nursing center to abuse old folks because 'YOU ARE ANGRY at being forced to DO something', is THE WORST possible end result !


It is my considered belief that ANY program envisioned and developed by 'lefties' will be a disaster, as both JPK and Pollywog have posited, as well as I have.

Much of all three of our comments have been tacit statements, based upon what our own private beliefs of what is correct, legal and JUST.

A thought: If it IS going to happen, regardless of our beliefs and knowledge, why not try to lead and guide it into safe waters, rather than let the Dem Lefties run us aground ?


From my readings, I believe The US Marine Corps Boot Camp will accomplish EVERYTHING that needs to be done to train 'animals' into citizens.


The Wharf Rat !




One can only imagine
the ridiculous left-leaning purposes Obama and his cohorts would impose on volunteers to do. No thanks.

Obama the idiot, as usual
A volunteer military is all the volunteer service any free society needs, something Obama would know had he served like McCain. But, as usual, Obama is an idiot, as was JFK with his nonsensical "ask not..." mandate.

It's more of the same (change? this is change?): the left preaches more and bigger government as a cure for everything. Maybe Obama should study Stalin's works programs as leader of the USSR, the ones that killed 20,000,000 people.

Protected, elitist Obama has no idea
what is and has been going on for many, if not all of his years on earth. "Giving back" to society is the mantra forced volunteerism is cloaked in; which makes no sense given that all much of society does now is take. And take. And take. The very people performing acts of volunteerism are the ones who should be "given back" to, if anyone is to receive acts of generosity.

For the past 25 years, I have witnessed legions of volunteers and and philanthropic efforts on the part of businesses and individuals. Over the past couple of decades, more volunteers in our after school and summer programs have had to quit because they must go to work due to the high cost of increasingly more socialistic living. Many volunteers were stay at home moms and some contractors who would pass along their trade to willing students. Businesses that used to generously give to various events are less able to now, if they are even still in existence. Litigation has left its ugly claw marks on donations due to risks in offering services or goods that someone decides weren't quite right.

Americans are inherently incredibly generous, and are having it squeezed out of them by leftist policies that do nothing but create more need and lead to government tyranny. Obama is well suited to be commander in chief in places like Cuba or Venezuela, but not the USA. What a ghastly, astoundingly clueless windbag he is.

Germany
Didn't Nazi Germany require much the same thing? Forced indoctrination - Ali Bama's return to the brownshirts. (If anyone remembers.)
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