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Friday, June 20, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
That '70s Show
by Jonah Goldberg
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You may have noticed that denouncing the "failed policies of the past" has become the official catechism of the Democratic Party.

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if at DNC headquarters "gesundheit" is out as the polite response to a sneeze and tsk-tsking the rise in nose-tickling particulates thanks to the bankrupt policies of the Bush administration is in.

So, you'd think if everything Bush has done is wrong, then a reversal of his position would be right.

Wrong again. We didn't hear applause from Democrats this week when President Bush "reversed" his "longstanding position" (in the words of The New York Times) on offshore drilling.

Nearly thirty years ago, Jimmy Carter's windfall-profits tax kicked in, making domestic oil exploration more difficult and expensive. In 1981, Congress passed a moratorium on offshore drilling that has stayed in place ever since. In 1990, the first President Bush signed an executive order reinforcing the ban on coastal oil exploration. And, until this week, the current President Bush supported the ban.

And yet, no cheers for Bush when he abandoned his failed policy of the last eight years. Instead, Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid sniffed that these were more of the same "old ideas." Odd.

And when John McCain similarly reversed himself, the Democrats whistled the same tune again.

"John McCain's plan to simply drill our way out of our energy crisis is the same misguided approach backed by President Bush that has failed our families for too long and only serves to benefit the big oil companies," declared the Obama campaign.

Now, it's fair to say that more drilling is the approach President Bush wanted. And it's even defensible for Obama to call it misguided. But the salient fact is that Bush didn't get what he wanted because he was constrained by the real failed policies of the past.

Indeed, we constantly hear we can't drill our way to lower gas prices, but how does anybody know when we haven't even tried?

Despite enormous improvements in extraction technology, the amount of oil produced domestically in America went down in the last eight years. It went down in the 1990s. It went down in the 1980s. In fact, it's been trending down since the 1970s, back when Barack Obama's "new" ideas seemed fresh coming from Jimmy Carter. Today, we produce about as much domestic oil as we did in the late 1940s, even though we keep finding, but not utilizing, more proven reserves.

That hardly sounds like a country that's been dedicated to "drilling our way" to anything. The issue isn't just oil. Gas prices largely hinge on refining capacity. But, as John McCain observed this week, "There's so much regulation of the industry that the last American refinery was built when Jerry Ford was president."

A lot has changed since Barack Obama was 13. No one knew what an iPod, e-mail address, Web browser, CD, DVD or Post-It Note was. Fax machines were cutting edge, the space shuttle was a pipe dream and cloning was science fiction. Global cooling, not warming, was the fashionable doomsday scenario.

And yet, we act as if technology has remained frozen since the days when it made sense to "dial" a phone number.

So much for the supposedly failed policies of the past. What of the winning policies of the future?

When they want to seem mainstream, anti-carbon crusaders insist that we must achieve "energy independence" to "end our addiction on Middle Eastern oil."

This makes it sound like their real motive is common sense or national security. We're not anti-oil, we just don't want to fund our enemies. That sounds reasonable, and it is a legitimate position -- it's just not the one they actually hold.

If energy independence were their real goal, not only would oil, coal and nuclear be on the table, but you'd hear more lamentations about our "addiction" to Canadian oil -- a bigger source than Saudi Arabia.

Instead we are treated to an endless stream of intellectual jibber-jabber and nonsensical argy-bargy. We need to be energy independent, but we can't use the energy sources we have. We need to switch to ethanol fast, but we can't import cheaper ethanol from Brazil. We must increase gas taxes to wean ourselves from fossil fuels, but when gas prices go up for any other reason, it's a crisis, even a crime. We're told we'll get nowhere drilling our way to independence or lower prices, as if windmills will do the job (stop laughing).

We shouldn't fight "wars for oil," but the self-imposed embargo on our own oil makes us even more dependent on the foreign oil we're allegedly going to war over. And, of course: We're told to reject the failed policies of the past, when the policies that have failed are the real old ones merely being sold as new.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Common Sense is Dead !
What I find sad but interesting is : {IF} this drilling 'problem ' had to do with subsidized housing loans , Welfare Social Bill attached to it today .
OBOMA >The Tree Huggers in Congress and their Twin thinking media would say ""WE NEED TO START DRILLING RIGHT THIS MINUTE AND THE HELL WITH REGULATIONS !!!!!!
Earth too all Tree Huggers > When a poor , middle class family or small business , haulers , air lines goes to get gas at $ 75-80-90-120 a fill up and the food and home energy prices have gone though the roof .... WE CAN'T AFFORD IT !
Don't tell America your for the Poor and Middle Class and small business's anymore .
Your falling on Death ears and Voters HOPEFULLY .

More
Either there's more to this than meets the eye or people in government really are just stupid. It's been going on for so long I'm starting to believe the latter.

Yep!
Let's keep on doing the same thing over and over. One of these days we'll get a different result.

All these cutting-edge eco-experts seem not to have noticed that energy-extraction technology has changed. I read an article not too long ago by a photographer who was searching for an endangered bird species. He finally found some of them happily ensconsed in a small pond. When he walked around the large growth of healthy grasses, he discovered that he was right next to an oil rig and the pond was part of its infrastructure.

Jonah Rocks Out Loud
I really was laughing when he wrote at the end of his paragraph "(stop laughing)."

And ReConUSMC is right. On this subject, and so many others, common sense IS dead.

My husband is in construction. He hasn't filled his tank all the way for months b/c he can't face it! I've been saying it (mostly to myself and my husband) for years, the Democrats are not the party looking out for the middle class. That's just another PR makeover!

The Republicans have screwed us over plenty, but I'm more and more convinced that it's the guilty elites, the entitlement dependents and those who encourage dependence on entitlements who keep voting 4 the Dems b/c they're the ones who benefit most from Dems policies! Not that there aren't good hearted people (mostly under 30) to whom the utopian rhetoric appeals enough to fight for the cause, but there aren't enough of them alone to keep Dems going.

No matter what disagreements readers have w/him:

JOHN MC CAIN 4 POTUS!

odd
It is bizarre that Goldberg starts with the suggestion that the fact that the democrats have decried Bush's failed policies, like the war and the deficit exploding tax policies, that it is somehow inconsistent for them not to favor a change in policy by Bush regardless of what it is. That seems to be just a "laugh at me" kind of intro.

After that the article seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the oil market works. The Canadian market is not a different market than the Saudi market. If we buy less from Canada, they sell to other people who buy less from the Saudis. So we contribute to the middle eastern oil market regardless of where our oil comes from.

What we could get by expanding drilling is significant compared with world production, not just US production. And the latest estimates from the government suggest that we are talking about possibly 4 cents a gallon starting around 2025.

We can know that we can't drill our way to lower gas prices because we have a sense of how much oil there is to be drilled, and how that would effect the market. But other than science and economics I suppose there is no way to know.

Insane Energy Policies
Isn't that the definition of insanity: Doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results?

Aren't there any intelligent Americans left? If so, can't they be elected to Congress and the presidency?

I think WFB was right when he said he would rather be governed by the first hundred people in the Boston phone book than the Harvard faculty. Disaster looms when a Harvard graduate who was editor of its newspaper leads in the presidential polls!

Lon
"We can know that we can't drill our way to lower gas prices because we have a sense of how much oil there is to be drilled, and how that would effect the market."

Lon, you remind me of the experts of the late 70s who warned about "peak oil" and demanded we keep the energy markets tightly regulated. It turned out the experts were wrong, and that over-regulation was the cause of the supply problems.

We have a very good idea of how much oil is underground. We also have extremely cost efficient ways of extracting it.

We know we cannot continue to rely on foreign imported oil (In 1992 we imported 35% of our oil -today it is almost 70%). The Liberals are setting themselves up for a fall this Novmeber.

C'mon, people!
You conservative folks just don't understand! Obama promises us lots of free stuff, and we won't have to take responsibility for our decisions! He and his friends know what's best for me and you!

Even though what Obama and the Democrats want to do to the country and the economy have proved to be huge, miserable failures in the past, this time it will be different. Obama and the Democrats said so, and if some part of the plan goes bad, they'll just give us more free stuff.

Our enemies will not want to kill us when he's president, and everyone in the world will like us! Is that cool or what?! And he'll punish the people who make more money than me, and that makes me feel good.

Man! You conservatives just don't know nuthin', and you're all dumb and stuff! And you're rasis, too!

Lon
You say, "We can know that we can't drill our way to lower gas prices because we have a sense of how much oil there is to be drilled, and how that would effect the market."

If that is the case, that getting more oil into the marketplace will not help bring prices down, then why was there all of this hulabaloo over the prospect of the Saudis putting more oil on the market? And if this does not affect prices, then can you explain how at the mere mention of more oil hitting the market the price of gas in my area (Winston-Salem, NC) dropped from around $3.98/gal to around $3.90/gal (and in some instances as low as $3.85/gal)? I hate to be the one to tell you this, but more supply to meet a high demand will decrease the price of the commodity in demand. That's how supply and demand works, as far as I can tell.

Also, you say "The Canadian market is not a different market than the Saudi market. If we buy less from Canada, they sell to other people who buy less from the Saudis. So we contribute to the middle eastern oil market regardless of where our oil comes from."

Mr. Golderg's point was not to say that Canada and Saudi Arabia were not part of the same global oil market, but to point out the fallacy of the liberal calls for independence from "foreign oil." If they honestly cared about our sources of "foreign oil", they would have to call for us to sever ties with Canada, since we import much more oil from Canada than we do from the Kingdom.

Democrats on Resources
If the Democrats were put in charge of the Sahara desert - there would be a shortage of sand within 5 years.

Democrats would then declare sand as an endangered vital natural 'resource' and demand that the sand be returned to its natural habitat - spending trillions replacing it.

The Democrats would issue 'sand subsidies' to all Democratic officials and 'sand welfare stamps' to all Democrat voters.

The Democrats exhibiting the same assertive, self-involved shallowness of liberals would declare 'We saved sand' while conservatives just stood by and ignored the crisis.

Democrat solutions are always worse than the problems they are trying to solve.

Robert Frost said it best about Liberals.
"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

Want $10 a Gallon Gas
Keep electing Democrats!

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans:91%Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

Jonah,Jonah,Jonah
Democrats admit they were wrong? Never!!

If President Bush,in plain sight of the Democrats,showed them he could walk on water.....They would accuse him of not being able to swim.

Big Green Enviro Lobby
Lon gets his info straight from the "National Resources Defense Council", an environmental extremist group that wants ultimately to do away with cars because of their impact on the environment.

From their website:

"NRDC has partnered with the U.S. Green Building Council and the Congress for the New Urbanism to set new national leadership standards for the location and design of development at a neighborhood level. Guided by the standards, developers could create neighborhoods where residents can walk or bike to the store, their children's school, or a friend's house instead of spending time behind the wheel and churning out more pollution."

Why should American Citizens listen to the well-funded environmental lobby elitists and activists when our national security interests are involved?

Their Officers and Trustees read like a Who's Who of rich, Liberal wackos.(Sorry, "activists")

Robert Redford, Laurie David, Leonardo DiCaprio, et al, would probably agree with Mr. Obama that the problem with high gas prices is that they went up too fast.

This crowd wants higher gas prices so that people will quit polluting.

I do not believe they give a damn about working people struggling to fill their tanks and pantries.

The lifting of the offshore drilling ban has revealed the Democrat party's preference for Big Green over the Middle Class.

Common Sense Americans really have to take control of our country back from elitist snobs who are unthinkingly green to the point of idiocy.

As Kermit said,"It's not easy being green".

You have to learn how to sacrifice humans to the Earth Goddess.

Love to all.


I liked the retort I heard yesterday:
Obama says "we can't drill our way out of our energy problem."

That's like saying we can't eat our way out of our hunger problem.

Rowly
"If President Bush,in plain sight of the Democrats,showed them he could walk on water.....They would accuse him of not being able to swim."

Now that's funny!

Oil "Crisis"
Having lived as an adult through the horrible 70's when Democrats imposed high taxes on energy and CREATED a gasoline shortage, I know that these same failed policies will only produce more of the same.

Our present oil shortage is caused by the Congressional ban on off shore drilling and ecological requirements on new refineries.

I also keep hearing about alternative energy production. Which one will fill my tank and let me drive to work? Don't even think about talking about ethanol. It is produced at a net energy LOSS.

400 pounds of corn can feed one human for a year.
400 pounds of corn will feed one stocker calf to market weight.
400 pounds of corn will feed four hogs to market weight.
400 pounds of corn will feed one hundred chickens to market weight.
400 pounds of corn produces 25 gallons of ethanol.

missed opportunities
If McCain and his $*@#*^ RINO pals had gotten on board with Bush and the rest of the GOP in 2005 and drilled in ANWR, we would be nearing production from those fields now.

And now he's the GOP nominee. Thanks for nothing.



To add to what others have posted, lon misunderstands the market. When oil is priced near its production cost ($20-$40 / barrel), increasing supply will only drop the price by a few cents. Oil is now expensive due to the bidding war that happens when supply fails to keep up with demand. Gas is so essential that major price increases only slightly reduce demand - but that also means it can get much cheaper very quickly if supply catches up.

Its about control folks
Our power hungry pols are busy fabricating a global fascist system of government for us.

Pushing us into grinding poverty will make our stomachs do the thinking.

We will willingly forfeit our freedom for a jackboot on the neck and a morsel of meat in the mouth.

Uneducated and hungry people are easy to enslave.

deadbeat congressmand and perks of offic
would someone please either confirm or put to rest this rumor.

Do congressmen get at taxpayer expense funds to rent cars and to fill them with gas? Are we as taxpayers stuck with paying for more tax free benefits for wealthy congressmen who live the goodlife on our dime and then have the unmitigated gall to lecture us on how we shouldn't demand the oil be allowed to search for new sources of energy.

I had heard that rangel in particular leases a cadillac at our expense. This is above and beyond the $2 million he stole from the treasury to set up a monument to himself via the pork thievery congress grants itself the right to help themselves to

To all
Drill here and do it now!!! Call write and e-mail!!! Remember Scamnesty? Do it!

Flagwaver
The question of what effect adding more oil to the market will have on prices depends on how much oil is involved. (The fact that gas prices would fall so far on rumors shows how much of the costs turn on speculation rather than actual costs. But that is part of a market process).

The oil available in ANWR is expected to drop the price of gas in 20 years when it would hit the market. But the predicted amount is 4 cents a gallon which is not likely to be a significant amount.

As for the Canada Saudi Arabia thing, it is true that they are both foreign countries. But we have not severed ties with Saudi Arabia, so why should Liberals insist we severe ties with Canada? Do you really not see why Liberals (not being different on this question than non-Liberals) are more worried about being dependent on middle eastern dictators than Canada? Was Goldberg just playing dumb here? Were you?

The fact that we get most of our oil from Canada is irrelevant to the debate for the reasons I mentioned in my last post. Can you come up with a non-stupid point Goldberg was making by citing the fact that we get most of our oil from Canada?

JPK
You apparently have a different idea of the availability and ease in production of oil than do the experts. Some Oil company should hire you quickly because your abilities would make them a fortune and drive oil prices down below what we are currently paying.

I tend to think that we should base our laws on what the experts say on the subject though. That still leaves room for indepenent thinkers like you to get rich. After all, the areas excluded from exploration within the US can't be the only place that these fools are underrepresenting the amount of available oil.

taft
isn't it recess time at the schoolyard. Take your childish logic and simplist thinking and go join the other kiddies.

Your lack of ability to frame an argument and offer any logic remains beyond your ability. You are fast approaching the number one ranking of dumbest twit to visit these threads.

Cutting and pasting may show minimal knowledge of the keyboard but doesn't enhance you senseless arguments.

We already know you are in b husseins pocket and better you return to the job you are most proficient at. Planting your lips on his backside while it may provide momentary enjoyment for you and the metrosexual candidate but it hasn't allowed you to win your arguments


for Lon
Lon claims: "And the latest estimates from the government suggest that we are talking about possibly 4 cents a gallon starting around 2025."

Do you liberals have any alternative solution of your own, other than telling Americans to suck it up and just drive less?

You liberals and Democrats are opposed to further oil production for environmental reasons. We understand that. But we're still waiting to hear what YOUR solution is.

Because I can't run my car on solar power or wind power.

And in the sprawling suburbs where I live, mass transit is unworkable.

So tell me, what do you liberals suggest other than "Suck it up"?

for Salt: NRDC's vision for America
NRDC and the other environmentalists don't just want to do away with cars.

They want to do away with private detached homes too.

NRDC's vision of America, this "New Urbanism," is just like the "Old Urbanism"--forcing Americans to abandon suburbia and live in row houses and apartment blocks. Gone is the notion of privacy--a house on your own piece of land with a fence around it. Instead, you open your window and look out upon your neighbors.

Doesn't sound like the "American Dream" to me.

Goldberg
"And yet, no cheers for Bush when he abandoned his failed policy of the last eight years. Instead, Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid sniffed that these were more of the same "old ideas." Odd."

I thought he was joking at first, but the guy is actually serious.

Yobama Speaks
BHO claims that the Bush energy policy is a failed one. That policy is to not drill in ANWAR or offshore. Doesn't that make BHO's definition of success as more drilling? I guess that the Annointed One must be exempt from the rigors of logic.
The speculative premium in the current market is based on the fact that global demand runs about 2million bbl/day above supply. Players in oil futures are betting that there will be a disruption in supply, making the demand gap larger. To wit: any news story about unrest in an oil producing country or refinery fire produces a spike in price. If we expand domestic production, which has decreased by about 40% in the last 25 years, the expectation of greater supply will produce lower prices based on the market's expectation of increasing supply.

cactus lover
If you want to debate me on a subject or disagree with me on an opinion, then go ahead. Why the smear and condensation? As for more drilling it won't matter in the short run, nor in the long run if republicans stay in office. I cut and pasted a quote one might find enlightening.

“There is a lack of investments in modern equipment,” Ms. Merritt said. “The overwhelming preponderance is that if you have inadequate engineering and equipment, poor process safety management, and poor staffing, you’re set up for a catastrophe.”
Ms. Merritt, who was appointed by President Bush and will retire after her five-year term ends in August, also said the Occupational Safety and Health Administration does not conduct enough inspections. “There is no enforcement,” she said.
No refineries have been built in the United States in over three decades, because refiners say they are too costly. Instead, they have been expanding their existing refineries."

M.E.
Oil prices also go up when there are rumors of war with Iran, and it helps out Ahmadinjad economically quite a bit.

"failed"
I've been hearing a lot from Obama about "failure" (Failed policies, failed States, etc). They all sound like something out of any of Noam Chomsk'y oh-so inspirational books on how much we suck as a nation.... Thanks for the positive thoughts, Mr Obama and company. Way to rise up from the "politics of usual"......

I'm betting that the libs had no clue
what the "(stop laughing)" was all about.

Why? Because they were shaking their heads "yes" and thinking, "Yeah well, of course!"

How many years ago were the dims saying that gas needed to be taxed to raise the prices so the American public would cut back...????

So, it's not taxes, but the price of gas is $4+ and all of a sudden, it's Pres. Bush's fault.

The libs OBVIOUSLY have no clue what they're talking about.... again.

Ten years before we'd see any oil if we started drilling today? Wrong! Another lie! Just last night an expert (which obviously the dims are not) said TWO YEARS, OR LESS is more like it, depending on the location.

Hint: Totally disregard anything any lib-idiot tries to tell us about the oil "crisis" and how to solve it... H$LL, disregard EVERYTHING any lib-idiot says about pretty much EVERYTHING!

Anne
Maybe in 2 years one could see a little difference in gas prices, instead of $4.50, it will be $4.35. If one is talking about drilling in the Arctic, it would be much longer. Really, what the Saudis are saying is true, there is no reason for prices to be so high, unless you're the oil companies and you like record profits.

Gas Prices
Six years of President Bush and a Republican Congress had gas go from $1.40 to $2.12.

Less than two years of President Bush and a Democrat Congress sees gas going from $2.12 to over $4.00. This, from the party of the "little guy".

Thanks a LOT.

Taft
The oil companies are operating at an 8% profit margin, up from 7.5% two years ago and STILL below the industry standard of 9% for large companies. Go ahead, look it up.

No one talks the percentage of profit, theyu just want to talk how many $$$ it is, not understanding the size of the investment it takes to run and operate all those facilities, deal with unions, cover their own transportation costs, etc.

How much do you think it costs to operate supertankers carrying oil?

Banks operate at a 20% profit. Want to include them in windfall profit tax schemes?

Hard Thought
Why then does Exxon report world breaking profits and salaries each year?

"
Thanks to surging oil prices, the company beat its own record for the highest profit ever recorded by a U.S. company, with net income rising 3 percent to $40.6 billion last year. "

Dem logic
The failed policies of the past, including not drilling offshore and in ANWR, not building refineries, enacting restrictive environmental reviews before drilling or refining is done, not using nuclear energy and overtaxing gasoline have lead to the present crisis. Therefore, to have a successful energy policy, we must turn from the failed policies of the past and keep doing what we have because we wouldn't effect the price anyway because all oil companies care about is big profits which is why they are not drilling now and taking advantage of the record price of oil in the millions of acres where they have leases and it would take 10 years anyway which is why we enacted all this restrictive legislation 10 years ago and the gas tax is not high enough because poor people can't afford gas so we ought to tax oil companies more to pay for social programs because the benevolent oil companies wouldn't then raise the price of gas on poor people just because their cost went up so we should nationalize oil production because the government does a great job of running everything else, like Social Security and ADFC and hey, I'm on break.

Make sense? It does to Nancy Pelosi.

Love to all.

taft
Did you not understand Hard Thought as he was trying to educate on the basics of economics and business? Is profit margin beyond your ken?
I certainly understand why folks treat you with - as you so eloquently put it - "condensation"

Hard Thought: We're just reading the

typical "leftist" limited lib-idiot talking points, that have no merit or substance.

Wonder how they're going to back peddle from the TEN YEARS until we actually get oil now that we know it won't be near that long...????

We're paying $4+ per gallon BECAUSE the Saudis (etc.) are charging $139. a barrel.

The libs are talking in circles, as usual, and make no sense what so ever!

Taft writes: "Maybe in 2 years one could
see a little difference in gas prices, instead of $4.50, it will be $4.35."

Really now? And you get this information from where???? The dumbo talking point? And you believe the Saudis?

Think again! That's NOT what the oil experts say, and anyone with a modicum of intelligence would listen to those who actually KNOW what they're talking about rather than the dims who OBVIOUSLY have a political agenda...SOCIALISM and NATIONALIZING the oil companies. (Ol' Maxine let THAT cat out of the bag!")



SteveL
Looking for an alternative solution suggests that more drilling is itself a solution, which does not really appear to be the case. In a case where supply is largely out of our control and demand is likely to continue rising, then the result is going to be higher energy costs.

Of course when they got high enough, other kinds of energy will become available because comparatively affordable. Obviously cuts in demand help, although by themselves probably not more than the additional drilling, which is to say not much.

The development of alternate fuels would be a plus, and there are things that can be done to further that goal. Cap and Trade kinds of policies would put downward pressure on demand.

I am not opposed to nuclear power, although I know many on the left are. So far it is apparently not an affordable alternative though, and it does seem more sensible to subsidize the development of cleaner sources of energy over a radioactivity producing one. But I certainly wouldn't rule out nuclear altogether. Nor would I rule out more drilling, but the payoff needs to outweight the costs. Advocates of more drilling have so far done so by distorting the debate which does not make their case particularly compelling. I would be open to a more honest case.

taft
I view you as a clown and hapless wit because all you do is parade your ignorance and parrot the usual talking points of the left.

But being typical left you fail to admit how lib policies and the dims total allegiance to the enviro's have stood in the way of all exploration and new refineries/

But then again the left has no problem sending some$500 billion to opec to keep the country pristine.

Even if america only found some 10 years supply that would still keep $5 trillion out of the bank accounts of our enmeies in opec. Or are you one of the hapless that doesn't view opec as hostile to america

Too bad others of your ilk always see america as evil but somehow thinks we deserve what happens to us. But your messiah b hussein when he isn't uttering a never ending string of uh's when he is away from his prepared script sees no problem with opec getting our treasury if we can keep a few caribou from alternating their migration habits

cactus lover: Well said! Excellent!
.

taft 2
that should have read hapless twit

cactus lover
It's Anne's and your opinion that gas prices jumped, practically over night, to over $4.50, because the liberals wouldn't let the oil companies drill or have environmental controls? I suppose you have an unbiased source on this? And Sir, call me names, Anne does all the time, but really, who comes off as the @ss?


Lon, do even read the rebuttals?
Nice exaggeration on the 20 year comment. Even liberal pessimists are only saying 10 years to start production in ANWR. If Clinton hadn't vetoed that bill in the 90's we'd be pushing supply up and prices down right now.

And it's probably a lot less than 10 years.


Also, AGAIN for you and Taft who keep repeating this "it will only drop gas a few cents" ERROR:

That number was from studies made when oil prices were low - near the cost of production. Gas was in the low $1 / gal range. Oil now costs far more to purchase than to produce because supply has not kept up with demand, resulting in bidding wars. Increase supply to just a little over base demand and the price comes right back down to near the cost of production, resulting in a major reduction in the price at the pump.

Lon, I think you know I'm right and are twisting the facts on purpose. Evidence: you wrote "a case where supply is largely out of our control...". Well, if we drill in ANWR, out west, off our coasts, etc, supply would be IN OUR CONTROL, fixing the problem.

Lon and Taft, do me a favor - explain why that is wrong before you keep repeating the same "fact".

C.L.
"Too bad others of your ilk always see america as evil but somehow thinks we deserve what happens to us. But your messiah b hussein when he isn't uttering a never ending string of uh's when he is away from his prepared script sees no problem with opec getting our treasury if we can keep a few caribou from alternating their migration habits."

The total oil out put from the Arctic would supply America with one more day of gas and for that you attack your fellow Americans and lambast environmentalists? You really are to stupid to debate. Bush is president and the republicans had almost total control for 7 years and now its the liberals fault?

chris
So, everything is just Clinton's fault and the libs? I mentioned a honest Republican earlier, who worked for Bush.

"“There is a lack of investments in modern equipment,” Ms. Merritt said. “The overwhelming preponderance is that if you have inadequate engineering and equipment, poor process safety management, and poor staffing, you’re set up for a catastrophe.”

Ms. Merritt, who was appointed by President Bush and will retire after her five-year term ends in August, also said the Occupational Safety and Health Administration does not conduct enough inspections. “There is no enforcement,” she said."

Also, you all want to open up the Arctic for drilling, and we are already shipping oil off to Japan. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

taft the twit
I gather you are an expert on how much petroleum will come from anwr. Oil experts have stated they believe the field might produce for 10-20 years.

The problem which escapes your limited mental capacity is that while we should be seeking alternative fuels that is at some future point and our concern is the here and now.

Other articles have stated there has been strides made in oil exploration that minimize possible environmental accidents.No one advocates irresponsible oil exploration but the left has maintained that if you don't fall from the globull warming scam you favor destroying the environment. But where is the proof that any one advocates such policies.

But obviously you know more than the oil companies. But then again your masters at move on and kos don't teach you to question their talking points which you happily parrot. Fortunately there are experts who will refute your lack of understanding that we need to find a way to help wean this country from the clutches of opec.

But there will be no leadership from your messiah. B hussein is another wil;ling dupe of the enviro's who are more adept at crying wolf rather than seeking solutions that are needed today

Bush and High Gas Prices

"The jump in oil prices wasn’t entirely a geopolitical phenomenon—the cold snap in the U.S. was also a big factor—but it was driven in part by an increase in what oil traders call the “risk premium.”When buying and selling oil, traders don’t just look at today’s supply and demand. They also try to forecast the future. And if buyers think there’s a chance that supply is going to be lower down the line—because, say, Iranian oil fields will be shut down—they will be willing to pay a higher price today in order to guarantee that they will have the oil they need.



JERUSALEM, June 8 (Reuters) - Israeli defence officials and political pundits rounded on Deputy Prime Minister Shaul Mofaz on Sunday after he threatened an attack on Iran, accusing him of exploiting regional war jitters to advance personal ambitions.


Mofaz, a former military chief who is now a top challenger to the embattled Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in their Kadima party, said in a newspaper interview last week that Israeli strikes on Iran looked "unavoidable" given progress in its nuclear plans.

The remarks helped drive up oil prices by nearly 9 percent to a record $139 a barrel on Friday and drew a circumspect response from Washington, which has championed U.N. sanctions against Iran while hinting that force could be a last resort."

Taft
One last post and I have to get some work done. I think environmentalist do go over board at times, but we haven't really even tried to conserve gas as we could, or support more mass public transport. We should have a dozen Bullet trains like Japan does.

OK, Libs, one of yours gets it
Here is liberal icon Robert Reich:
"Monday, June 09, 2008
Why is Gas at $4 a Gallon?

Conspiracy theories abound, but the soaring price of crude oil (today around $137 a barrel) is related to four more mundane forces:

(1) growing demand from developing nations, especially China and India. This is the main reason for the price rise over the last six years.

(2) the dropping dollar. I attribute half of oil's price rise since January to this.

(3) Global investors (including, perhaps, your own pension fund) are anxious about the American economy, and looking to hedge their bets against future declines. Oil is one of the commodities that looks like a good bet. Hence, there's speculation in oil futures.

(4) Instability in the Middle East."

Reich understands. Why don't you try?



Love to all.

c.l.
Again, why won't you give a credible source? And no, I don't know much about the oil industry and would listen to facts and logic. We live in a sea of mendacity and no one trusts anyone anymore.

Now I really have to be finished, have a nice day.

not just Clinton's fault
There's plenty of blame to go around. I expect the Democrats to the opposite of whatever would be good for our economy. But it really irritates me when Republicans who know better do the wrong thing because they think it will keep them in power.

When Bush pushed for more domestic drilling in 2005, McCain and 6 ot 7 other liberal Republicans blocked it - I blame them at least as much as I blame Clinton and the Democrats.


This "lack of investments in modern equipment" quote refers specifically to refineries, not oil production. Because you liberals oppose new and expanded refineries at every turn (NIMBY, etc) the ones we have are having to run flat out to meet demand. Scheduling the downtime necessary to make the improvements Merritt wants would be much more feasible if we had some excess capacity.

Aside from that, I don't trust people who end up as government regulators - for any party's administration. They are typically statists (as her other comments show) who believe government is the solution. I, like Reagan, believe that government is the problem.


Shipping oil to Japan makes much more sense than shipping oil from Alaska to NYC. It's much closer. All oil is effectively on the world market, and increasing the supply anywhere pushes prices down everywhere.

I've heard many talk about keeping our oil at home. I bet these are the same people complaining about our trade deficit. We need to be drilling enough oil to export as well as supply ourselves. We have it available, and could go get it if people like McCain, Clinton, Lon and Taft would quit making lame excuses and let us get to it.


Risk Premium - Taft, you're making my point for me. If we had more supplies in non-volatile areas of the world (like, say, Alaska or off our coasts) the risk premium from instability in the middle east would be less. Drill here, drill now.

Taft
Let's say you're right. (hak,hak) Let's say all it lowers the price to is 4.35 a gal. At the rates it's going now, the price in two years would be 7.05 a gallon! isn't the difference better? Of course this is if you are right which we all know ain't a chance in hades!!!

Anne
Hi just thought I'd come join the fun tonight. looks like I came in on a good one. We know that drilling is going to number one make us more energy independant, two lower prices by lowering costs, three make better use of our resources. Oh, and I forgot four burn the hineys of the dems! ( just that makes the whole thing worth while!)

It is that 70s show...
with Bush playing Nixon, who, representing the Republicans, was half responsible for the high price of oil and other commodities(inflation). Johnson Democrats had the other half of the blame. Obama is up next and he'll be playing Jimmy Carter. Just hope you can remain employed.

All I know is that
gas prices have jumped significantly since Dems took control of Congress, after promising our citizenry they would lower prices. To top it off, Dems boldly declare we must be forced off oil and refuse any measures that might alleviate the problem. God willing, this issue will kick them in the groin come election time.

RickV404
I hate to tell you, but Nixon was no worse than any other pres. the only thing was he was dumb. Dumb enough to put his mis-deeds on tape. If you want to blame him for inflation then blame him for some of the lowest un-employment too. Course that was due to my war. He lied a lot, but name one that hasn't. The only two lies I can't forgive him for is "We have no ground troops in Cambodia" and "We are bringing 5,000 troops home this month" while sending 5000 more in on the same aircraft.

The dollar is collapsing
Republicans and Democrats can't stop it. USA is a country that is in substantial decline.

China is the new economic and soon to be military superpower in the world.

America is a nation that has no manufacturing production, imports illegal aliens for work, and a dollar that is over valued.

Expect a US Collapse in the dollar, economy, and massive riots and murders.

Sam...did you say...
Massive riots and murders? Because of the value of the dollar?

Ok buddy....

TomLibertarian
Check out the news? Murder rates rising. Read the newspapers?

No dollar devaluation? Okay buddy back to you.

Dollar devaluation= inflation
TomLibertarian, you call yourself a libertarian and you don't even understand dollar devalutaion?

Okay buddy... Huh Huh

Taft: Aaah, "overnight" you say?

Actually, the dumos and the greenies have been heading toward this very situation for the past 38-40YEARS!

Get that, YEARS?

How about you do some serious, unbiased research and see what really happened, and how we really got to this situation.

Hey eastlake: Just got back from dinner.

Not sure why, but I'm still hopeful that as long as these lib-idiots hang around TH, maybe... just maybe... they'll learn something (even if by accident.)

Wishful thinking, no doubt, but perhaps just ONE will figure it out.

Sam, I have to disagree with you
at 8:34 you said "The dollar is collapsing
Republicans and Democrats can't stop it."

Looks to me like they just WON'T stop it. Those jerks know exactly what needs to be done, but are more interested in getting elected than doing what's right for the country.

Seriously, though - Sam, you've nailed it - we need to drill here & now, but we also need to get a handle on the dollar.

We've now got the choice between the tax & spend party or the borrow & spend party. I'm going with "none of the above" this fall.

McCain's running around pretending to be this fiscal hawk while at the same time supporting new massive federal beaurocracies (cap & trade, etc).

If we could just cut the government back to the size it was when Bush 43 took office & keep his tax cuts in place, we'd be running an instant huge surplus, and could start paying down the debt. That would get us out of the mess we're in.

Anne
You are right on with your # 63 response to Taft. How long ago did we build our last refinery? The save the environment folks have fought against new dams for water storage and have fought against any new nuclear facilities. The country is paying the piper.

Blackbird: Thank you... :-)
Sadly, the libs are as short on HISTORY as they are on facts and truth!

chris
The politicians are not stoping the dollar collapse, because of the government run corporations are telling them to debase the currency in order to move to a regional currency.

Oil is being priced relative to the value of the dollar that is being debased.

These politicians know they are not going to be re-elected (paid off to allow the Fed. Reserve to create hyperinflation.)

We will see government price controls, then capitilization controls, and then Obama will use the patriot act on anyone who disagrees with him. We will see a full dictatorship unless Americans put the fear of GOD in congress.

http://www.revolutionmarch.com


Nationalizing the oil companies???
From: American Family Association

"Becoming self-sufficient energy is now a topic being discussed by a growing number of members of Congress and the media. But two members of Congress want government to seize control of the oil companies, a stupid idea!

"Maurice Hinchey (D-NY) has called for the federal government to seize control of oil companies. In a Washington Examiner editorial piece, Rep. Hinchey said, “We [the government] should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.

Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) took the same approach, saying to oil industry executives: 'Guess what this liberal (referring to herself) will be about? This liberal will be all about socializing - um, uh … will be about … basically … taking over, and the government running all of your companies.'”

THIS is the FIRST STEP toward SOCIALISM/MARXISM/COMMUNISM. And if you didn't think that the dumbos had an agenda, think again!

Anne and Sam
Brilliant posts. Can you imagine what mischief Obama as POTUS and his administration will cause with their Marxist-Socialist agenda? Just the mention of Maxine Waters' name sends chills up the old backbone.
Besides that POTUS Obama will get us all killed

Blackbird: And you know what's really
scary???

There are people out there who will vote but have no clue that every word out of BHO's mouth is right straight out of the Marxist Handbook.

And to think that some folks are worried about the speeches BHO has "lifted lines" from. Compared to his Marxist leaning, those plagiarized speeches are the least of our worries.

Hey Anne
I can't understand it. Taft didn't stat around long. I wanted to post some more to him, but he left. These libs get shorter and shorter attention spans every day. You know, that might be why they don't get the message!!! Nah, it's got to be in the genes! Nobody but nobody gets that dumb by accident!

eastlake: They do exit, stage Left...

pretty quickly as soon as they realize that they've been cornered, don't they?

What I find interesting is that some just leave, others keep on spinning (like haldoofus) and don't know when to give up, and others just get nasty!

And, you might not be far off with the notion that it's genetic. LOL



The Weimar Show...
Get ready for a Weimar inflation which will far surpass the 70's. Brace yourselves, it will be every man for himself.

The corporations and congress are going to love this. Bush, Obama, Larry Kudlow, and others will be rejoicing on how they pulled the biggest fraud on the American people ....

D. Cheney will be in Dubai giving congradulations to being part of the dollar devaluation process....


Anne
Hey watch saying that goofballs name, he might fly in on wobbies wal-mart special. oh that's right, it's a one seater, not that that ever stopped them before!!! One drunk and the other a bald faced liar, what a pair! Match made in Pittsburg!

The Blackbird
Do you have a source that proves oil comp are too poor to build refineries? It seams drilling in the Arctic would be pretty expensive also and I have read that oil comp. would rather not build refineries, after all they are out to make a buck.

More Washington Post News
BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

two year old news
Taft, if the best you can do is to quote an almost 2 year-old news story - before Bush even ordered the surge - you're really hurting.

Dumb Dems And Gas prices
You can post until your fingers are sore and some folks will STILL not get it. Or if they do,they won't admit it,because they know their party is to blame.

As for telling them some Dems want to nationalize the oil campanies,they don't even know it was said by their own side.

I doubt many Dems even know who Waters and Hinchey are. That is how politically illiterate some people are,yet they are allowed to vote to cancel out our vote.

chris: Taft's two year old news....

Of course the dumb dems will rely on two year old news, and it makes no difference to them IF it's correct, honest, or truthful.

Since when has INTEGRITY been important to the dumb dems?

Hey Rowly, How ya doing? Good post!
.

IT MUST FOLLOW THEN...
We cannot eat our way out of hunger

We cannot drink our way out of thirst

We cannot educated our way out of bad test scores

We cannot exercise our way out of bad health

We cannot save our way out of debt

Sounds like we're screwed...

Strike another one for the liberal human haters!

Taft
Your reply # 76

"Subject: The Blackbird
Do you have a source that proves oil comp are too poor to build refineries? It seams drilling in the Arctic would be pretty expensive also and I have read that oil comp. would rather not build refineries, after all they are out to make a buck."

What point are you trying to make? I never said that the oil companies are too poor to build refineries. Drilling anywhere will be expensive.

chris
Here is a more recent link, but the New Yorker one is old, but the analysis is the same.

Crude Oil Jumps on Israel-Iran Bomb Talk
06/20/08 - 12:44 PM EDT


http://www.thestreet.com/s/crude-oil-jumps-on-israel-iran-b omb-talk/markets/commodities/10422345.html?puc=googlen&cm_v en=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Oil and politicians
It will be interesting to hear the sob stories when the annual Northeast home heating relief bill is introduced this year. Perhaps we can suggest that alternative energy sources be used rather that Oil or natural gas. Still waiting on congress to pass a South home cooling bill to help me with the rising prices of energy.

Anne
Hey,Anne!! I'm fat n'sassy down here in the Bible Belt.How're you?

Obama = McCain on drilling
Follow me:

Obama clearly wants no new drilling. McCain wants to lift the ban on drilling and only allow states that don't want to drill to drill (OK for Florida, not for Alaska). Seems a distinction without a difference in the end.

Huh?
"argy-bargy" ?!!

The 70's
In the 70's my main goal was to get a toot-a-loop radio. It's an "S", it's an "O", it's a crazy radio. Flashback memory there.

Anyway, I remember driving with my dad to the gas station at night to park the car to wait in line for gas the following day. My mom would pick us up. Didn't really understand what was going on, just that it was time for a ride in the car.

So today I can buy gas on any day, doesn't matter if it is odd/even based on my license plate, just have to be willing to pay an arm and a leg for it.

We either need to drill or do something. We can't keep having this do nothing mentality.




Sue
I don't remember the toot-a -loop radio. I do remember in the fifties gas was twenty-five cents a gallon. My in-laws ran a store and one week during a gas war,it went down to twenty-one cents for a few days. Unbelievalbe.


Rowly
In late 1971, there was a gas war in Columbus, Ga that dropped the price to 25.9 per gal for a grand total of two days. I was at Ft Benning at the time. What part of the state are you from? I only ask as I have relatives in Cedartown.

eastlake joe
I am near Augusta,now.About tem miles south in the country . I was living near Wrightsville which is seventy miles further south when gas was $.25 per gallon.Cokes were $.05.

I have been through Cedartown many times.My high school also played them in basketball many years ago.

eastlake joe
I also have a sister-in-law and several nieces and nephews living in Columbus.

Rowly
After being at Ft Benning for about two years, I know the state pretty well. I was just talking to my Aunt on the phone. her and her husband used to raise chickens for some big company down there. my Dad had sixteen brothers and sisters from Ceadertown. all were born there. Some real beautiful country around the state.

Rowly
Ya, I got an ex(thank god) from there. Got a good one now, 31 years. Couldn't ask for better. Well gotta get up early. Have a good one and God Bless all.

eastlake joe
Hey ! don't blame Columbus for your bad-ex. She was no doubt,hatched someplace else. Congrats on your 31 years and many more to go!!!

Jonah Goldberg's Article Stirs Me
June 20, 2008

Jonah Goldberg has always impressed me as a statistically accurate, always passionate for a cause, establishment writer. I am often seen to be more speculative and creative in my political analysis but after all I am not clearly in Jonah's league. What I am getting out of said article is the subliminal message that all the reprehensible comments and discourteous treatment that the Bush opposition as piled on him with total disrespect for the President of our great country, George Bush may one day have a legacy. I did say I was speculative but to all those who believe that President Bush will never in the future be "vindicated" sometime during another's failed and damaging efforts, I would advise mesmerized voters to stop dwelling on the past and think about properly evaluating your present 2008 candidate, just in case yout judgement of George Bush will prove ultimately to be flawed.

commonsenseunlimited
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