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Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Church of Green
by Jonah Goldberg
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


I admit it: I'm no environmentalist. But I like to think I'm something of a conservationist.

No doubt for millions of Americans this is a distinction without a difference, as the two words are usually used interchangeably. But they're different things, and the country would be better off if we sharpened the distinctions between both word and concept.

At its core, environmentalism is a kind of nature worship. It's a holistic ideology, shot through with religious sentiment. "If you look carefully," author Michael Crichton observed, "you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths."

Environmentalism's most renewable resources are fear, guilt and moral bullying. Its worldview casts man as a sinful creature who, through the pursuit of forbidden knowledge, abandoned our Edenic past. John Muir, who laid the philosophical foundations of modern environmentalism, described humans as "selfish, conceited creatures." Salvation comes from shedding our sins, rejecting our addictions (to oil, consumerism, etc.) and demonstrating an all-encompassing love of Mother Earth. Quoth Al Gore: "The climate crisis is not a political issue; it is a moral and spiritual challenge to all of humanity."

I heard Gore on NPR recently. He was asked about evangelical pastor Joseph Hagee's absurd comment that Hurricane Katrina was God's wrath for New Orleans' sexual depravity. Naturally, Gore chuckled at such backwardness. But then the Nobel laureate went on to blame Katrina on man's energy sinfulness. It struck me that the two men are not so different. If only canoodling Big Easy residents had adhered to "The Greenpeace Guide to Environmentally Friendly Sex."

Environmentalists insist that their movement is a secular one. But using the word "secular" no more makes you secular than using the word "Christian" automatically means you behave like a Christian. Pioneering green lawyer Joseph Sax describes environmentalists as "secular prophets, preaching a message of secular salvation." Gore, too, has been dubbed a "prophet." A green-themed California hotel provides Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" next to the Bible and a Buddhist tome.

Whether or not it's adopted the trappings of religion, my biggest beef with environmentalism is how comfortably irrational it is. It touts ritual over reality, symbolism over substance, while claiming to be so much more rational and scientific than those silly sky-God worshipers and deranged oil addicts.

It often seems that displaying faith in the green cause is more important than advancing the green cause. The U.S. government just put polar bears on the threatened species list because climate change is shrinking the Arctic ice where they live. Never mind that polar bears are in fact thriving - their numbers have quadrupled in the last 50 years. Never mind that full implementation of the Kyoto protocols on greenhouse gases would save exactly one polar bear, according to Danish social scientist Bjorn Lomborg, author of the book "Cool It!"

Yet 300 to 500 polar bears could be saved every year, Lomborg says, if there were a ban on hunting them. What's cheaper - trillions to trim carbon emissions, or a push for a ban on polar bear hunting?

Plastic grocery bags are being banned, even though they require less energy to make and recycle than paper ones. The country is being forced to subscribe to a modern version of transubstantiation, whereby corn is miraculously transformed into sinless energy even as it does worse damage than oil.

Conservation, which shares roots and meaning with conservatism, stands athwart this mass hysteria. Yes, conservationism can have a religious element as well, but that stems from the biblical injunction to be a good steward of the Earth, rather than a worshiper of it. But stewardship involves economics, not mysticism.

Economics is the study of choosing between competing goods. Environmentalists view economics as the enemy because cost-benefit analysis is thoroughly unromantic. Lomborg is a heretic because he treats natural-world challenges like economic ones, seeking to spend money where it will maximize good, not just good feelings among environmentalists.

Many self-described environmentalists are in fact conservationists. But the environmental movement wins battles by blurring this distinction, arguing that all lovers of nature must follow their lead. At the same time, many people open to conservationist arguments, like hunters, are turned off by even reasonable efforts because they do not want to assist "wackos."

In the broadest sense, the environmental movement has won. Americans are "green" in that they are willing to spend a lot to keep their country ecologically healthy, which it is. But now it's time to save the environment from the environmentalists.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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I COULD NOT AGREE MORE W/JONAH ON THIS
Most of us wish to be good stewards when it come to MOTHER EARTH, but many environmentalists
carry it a little too far.

I guess it could be argued that if the big corporations were not so intent on shipping manufacturing over to China and India that those countries would not have such a big appetite for oil.

I was talking to someone last night who reminded me that they knew there was millions of barrels of oil under the Great Lakes but that the environmentalists were too rabid about protecting the environment and thats the reason there has been no drilling in the Great Lakes.
I just wonder how long Canada will refrain from drilling for oil in the Great Lakes like Erie?

A couple of months ago it was reported that the Russians have had such a good taste from their oil production that they are now rabid to compete and beat the United States to the punch when finding oil under the North Pole and South Pole Ocean floors. Whats so ironic is that a lot of the drilling could actually be done safely and without harm to the environment. Even if a portion would go to the up keep and maintenance of the environmental possibilities might actually be better.

Just yesterday I read that scientists have the ability to re-create the now extinct Tasmanian Tiger from DNA samples found of the creature in a museum. Maybe we should open more museums with the possibilities of preserving DNA samples...kinda like a NOAH'S ARK...LOL

Beaver=real environmental terrorist
Environmentalist whine about cutting timber, but the biggest destroyer of timber is an animal that now has no natural enemies(beaver pelts are basically worthless). They are overtaking rivers, creeks, streams, etc. all of which feed major rivers which feed our oceans, but since these varmint beaver are damming up every bit of flowing water they can with TIMBER, our waterways are suffering more now than ever. When creeks become swamps thus destroying hundreds of acres of timber and virtually stopping the flow of creeks to major rivers, the beaver has just put himself in the forefront of true environmental terrorism by destroying all the "Luna" trees and disturbing our precious water.

The only good beaver is a dead beaver so do the environment a favor and kill a beaver today! That is true conservation-kill a beaver, save a tree!

I have been saying this for months!
Right on Jonah!

Environmental Socialism is the new religion followed in the Church of Liberalism. They have rapidly been pushing God out of our society because he is 'intolerant' and it is certainly not realistic to believe in an unseen almighty.

So they can now actually look to the bloated Algore and worship him and his new message of AGW. Useful idiots, all of them.

My one hope is that McShamnesty is just fishing for the enviro-nut vote.

Well, It is wishful thinking…

Thank you Cowboys.
In the Ol' west, 60 million tetonka(that's Sioux for buffalo) roamed the plains, emitting dangerous levels of CO2 into the atmosphere through their belching, breathing, and gas after a hearty meal of plains grass. CO2 levels have been greatly reduced which contributes to saving our planet. Since I don't want to upset PETA and other animal activists, I propose that we start a government agency: the BRGPA (Breathe Right Green Protection Agency)which deploys thousands of agents in each state to place Breathe Right nose bandages on all animals, including birds and reptiles. This has been scientifically proven to reduce CO2 output 40%, as breathing is more efficient. I nominate Al Gore to head this agency.

One more
version of self righteousness.

I hunt beavers...
Natural enemies of the beaver include bears, wolves, otters and the lynx. I've also known some bigger birds of pray going for the occasional baby beaver. Not too many of those natural enemies around anymore though...

Anyways – enough about the beaver.

rationality...
This article is appallingly poorly written and makes no sense. Jonah is basically saying that "environmentalism is bad because it is irrational – like religion".

However, it is in fact perfectly rational: In essence environmentalists say that man is causing damage to the environment. This is not always good. The next logical step, given that we don’t want to harm the environment is to change mans' way. Could anything be simpler?

Also, I do not like the straw men that Jonah is bent on creating: “Environmentalists view economics as the enemy because cost-benefit analysis is thoroughly unromantic.”
This is just not true. Most environmentalist theory stems from the one of the biggest economic puzzles – how to handle the so called “externalities” of our economic system.

I still remember the acid rains, the smelly landfills, the deformed fish, and the garbage floating in every harbour. Most of you must agree that we have come a long way in the last 20-30 years. So, who believes that this would have happened without “environmentalists”?

I'll add two cents!
When I was homeschooling my son we did a study on the beaver.

They came here looking for gold and it turned out Beaver pelts were it.

All those dams and flooding created an environment very different from today. Not too compatible with our way of life any more.

No demand for the pelts any where?


hijacking the thread...LOL

The Gaia Worshippers
Rabid environmentalists are toxic to our civilization. Many of them put animals and plants on a hierarchy above human beings. And we all know how the restrictions on DDT led to the death of millions and is still contributing to the misery of Africans.

The dirty little secret about rabid environmentalists is that they hate the human race because it is "polluting" the earth. So, in effect, they are self haters. For them CO2 is the new Satan. They perfectly illustrate the truth of the adage, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...."

Crooks and fools
We could put a stop to all this irrational eco-idiocy by one action. Pass a bill that makes the eco-idiots and their organizations responsible for paying back the costs of all of the past frauds that have been shown to be hoaxes and fraud.

We all know that the polar bear scam was done solely for the purpose of forcing AGW legislation and it really has NOTHING to do with polar bears. If we had a president who was a real conservative, not only would this still be court, but a counter suit would be in progress to bankrupt these environmental criminals.

Eco-idiots fall in two categories; crooks who are looking to make a fortune from government mandated shortages and fools who believe the crooks.

Markus
You make a couple of good points. But unlike Goldberg and Lomberg, you fail to distinguish between the original environmental movement of the 1970s and its present state.

Then, it was about sustainable growth and proper custodianship of resources consistent with not doing avoidable harm to the human race. Today, it is primarily about fanatics who wish to exterminate most of humanity to "save Holy Mother Gaia".

If environmentalists really wanted to solve problems like global warming, they would be in favor of nuclear energy. If they wanted to solve the problems of environmental harm caused by subsistence farming in the Second and Third Worlds, they would be in favor of increased use of technologies such as hydroponics and even something as simple as contour farming and crop rotation to deal with the problem. And if the really wanted to solve the problem of the environmental impact of petroleum-based economies, they'd be in favor of drilling for the oil in our own territory, under our control, so that we could be sure that the impact footprint would be minimalized.

But they aren't in favor of any of the above. Their ideology is a vicious mixture of Noam Chomsky style hatred of Western civilization and Paul Ehrlich style dreams of a world without people. They bring nothing useful to the discussion, and haven't for decades.

But don't ask me- ask Patrick Moore, one of the founders of Greenpeace. He quit years ago, precisely because the group had moved from "wise use" to "Death to the Humans" as their universal answer to every "environmental" problem.

Or just read Tom Clancy's "Rainbow Six", or Michael Crichton's "State of Fear", to see what really drives the "environmental" movement today.

cheers

eon

Wait until it costs $150 to fill up
I will shed even my conservationism at that point and begin drilling in my own back yard! Americans have no idea what is coming at them in economic pain. No idea. These enviro whackos will deserve a good bit of the blame at that point. Fools. We have so forgotten in the last 70 years just how bad things can get. Watch as price shocks begin creeping through a slowing economy and McCain tries to strangle it with even more regulation.

Canada has plenty of oil
Canada (Kanukistan) does not need to drill the great lakes; it has plenty of oil under the Province of Alberta.

What is stopping them from drilling is the screaming from Ontario and Quebec that the money Alberta makes from its resources must be *shared* with the *Have Not* provinces that are driving themselves into the ground with outrageous taxes and stupid socialist programs.

Response to Vic
Good post. I agree that a lot of environmentalist have become much more fanatical. This is something that is evident across the board in our society.

However, I think that you are wrong about the nature of the mainstream environmentalist movement. Today most environmentalists are supportive of nuclear power. There is also a deeper understanding of how economic and social issues should be factored in when making environmental decisions.

I could go on but I am in a hurry to leave… seeya

for further reading on multiple-use
resources, read almost any book by Thomas Sowell (but Basic Economics probably says it the best). Particularly apt is Jonah's recognition that there are competing uses for resources, and that economics dictates or observes how resources would be split up by the market IF THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T STICK IT'S NOSE IN. The moment that legalisms are set up to "help", waste and higher costs result.

Markus
IF most environmentalists are supportive of nuclear power they sure are doing a good job of hiding it. I have only heard ONE interview of an eco-idiot that supported nuclear power and that was from the sierra club.

I have read and heard numerous interviews from eco-idiots that oppose it.

The fact is that the aims of invironmentalism were met a long time ago. The air and the water in the U.S. are as clean as they have been in hundreds of years. The only thing we have seen from this movement in the last 30 years in insane incremental nudging of laws into the anti-human realm, all based on non-science and acts of faith, i.e. religion as Jonah said.

environmentalism
"It touts ritual over reality, symbolism over substance, while claiming to be so much more rational and scientific than those silly sky-God worshipers and deranged oil addicts".

This is your self-proclaimed biggest problem with environmentalism. Your real problem is that your apparently don't understand what environmentalism is. You suggest that it's just a silly, self-righteous way of doing things to pay homage to a godlike mother earth. I would suggest you look at the basis of environmentalism - a scientific understanding that the living and non-living world is a vastly complex, interconnected collection of systems that can be affected by our actions, which can then adversely affect us as a species. There is a component of humility and "wrong versus right", but attributing a religious perspective to environmentalism is just a neo-con spun dumbing down of the subject - name-calling so you can hate it.

I know an area of the country
that's CLEANER than it was over 30 years ago...the Gary,Hammond, Indiana area. In the 70s, when my family would take regular trips over to Michigan through Chicago and Indiana -- the air in the steel country was GRAY. You could SEE THE POLUTION as well as smell it. It nearly made us gag.

Now, the air is CLEAR -- even though the smell is a bit pungent -- it's NOT OVERWHELMING like it was in the 70s. That area of the country is cleaner. The free market found solutions to the air pollution. If it worked there, why are we wanting to make NEW LAWS to stifle innovation and progress?

Mom in Wisconsin

rightminded
Who's making new laws to stifle innovation and progress? That sounds like a neo-con lying point to me.

I'm an Eco-Idiot Bigot
Look, I'm all for clean air and water, I don't litter, I do my little part that any person would do, but enough already with the Green People.

It is like a new religion, as Jonah has stated. Everywhere I look or go, I see a Green Friendly stamp on products and in commercials. It's being shoved down my throat.

Some of these Eco-Farse-Heads are so radical, they will destroy a person's property to prove their point. I hold them a hair above 911 Truthers, because they are just as stupid and false in their beliefs.

I hold them responsible for our future crisis regarding the price on gas and energy. We can easily drill for oil here, building nuclear power plants, all while maintaining the environment and not hurting a fleas' head. But no, we can't. We are to use 5 different garbage barrels to recycle every ounce of garbage, we are to make compost from our waste, we are forced to use stupid light bulbs, 65 year old men need to travel 30 miles to work on a bike wearing a suit and a tie strapping their briefcase to their arse. The answers are right in front of us, and yet, we can't touch them because of the Eco-Idiots.

When I need to buy an appliance, if the salesman tells me about the Green Friendly product, I leave. I absolutely refuse to spend any of my money on BS.



conservation does mean destroying beaver
For you dipsticks in the Northwest, beaver are not native to many states in the south, but were introduced by wildlife and fisheries on the advice of professors(see Louisiana), but since the beaver pelt HAS LOST ITS WEALTH there is not much trapping going on to keep there populations down here in the south.

Visit North Louisiana where thousands of acres have been destroyed by beavers since there are no natural predators like bear or lynx and you will see the pure destruction of timber by a varmint that was introduced by man without considering the future consequence.

Conservation does mean understanding the future consequences of instituting policy. The polar bear bs going now is exhibit A of people not understanding the negative consequences of dumb policy.

Dumb environmental/conservation policy has serious consequence so my issue with beaver introduction is right on subject with this thread.

KILL A BEAVER, SAVE A TREE!!!!!

Artic Penguins Save the Day!
Glad to see the polar bears increasing their numbers, despite our illustrious federal govenment's declaration that they are vanishing. It must be the rich diet of Antarctic penguins the "environmentalists" in the media transported to the Arctic!

In a trip down Environmentalist Lane, remember in the 1970's the lefty nuts including Newsweek were screeching about a New Ice Age and were DEMANDING that the federal government dump volcanic ash all over the poles to melt the ice caps and save all of humanity? Aren't you glad they didn't? And where is the discussion of another hot 1970's issue--population control--about 3 BILLION people ago? How many kids do McAmnesty and Goron have? If more than two, what if the rest of humanity reproduced like that?

I have been using the word "conservationist" all my life, since to me it means preserving natural resources based on scientific fact. The problem with "environmentalist" is that the word has become connected to a political agenda, evidenced by the hot CO2 and methane emissions coming out of issue exploiters like Goron and McAmnesty. Let's use the word conservationist and insist on scientific fact to preserve nature.

True conservation
No one has more incentive to conserve nature than hunters and fishermen. And, in fact, through hunting and fishing licenses they are the ones paying for more than 60% of all conservation projects nationwide. The do gooders and posers of the green movement are doing little more than use the environmental issues as a stick to beat capitalism over the head with.

More eco-idiots
Another example of lefty green scum was on TV yesterday on the show “What You Get For the Money”. This is a program that is syndicated on all the channels dedicated to home improvement. It shows various houses throughout the country in various price ranges that go from expensive to wildly extravagant.

This show had a house in the Midwest that was worth $600,000 and the owner (wife) described their remodeling of this 4000 square foot house as being “green” as they did their part for the environment by replacing the kitchen counter backsplash with a “recycled glass” tile made from old wine bottles.

This is the attitude of the typical Yuppie eco-idiot. They think they are improving the environment by using kitchen tile made from broken wine bottles at the same time they live in a 4000 square foot house with an energy signature equal to a small store. Albore is even worse.

Folks you can’t make this stuff up.

Paul said it all.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

ROMANS 1:25 NIV

The enviornment is just another pretext.
When nearly a century of experience and mountains of dead bodies finally put an end to Marxism, its believers made the jump to enviornmentalism. At the core they are narssisists seeking to see themselves reflected in the lives of others forced to live by their prescriptions. They really don't care about solving real world problems, being obsessed with imposing their will on the rest of us. What they want most of all is to hold themselves up as superior beings without accomplishing anything, and no, being a perpetual scold is not an an accomplishment.

As narsissists their real goal is power, for its own sake, over others. In this sense they are similar to the islamofascists, believing that some have the right to force their beliefs on others

Minor bit of advice-
"No doubt for millions of Americans this is a distinction without a difference, as the two words are usually used interchangeably."

So stop using the word 'environmentalist' in conversation. An author I read a few months back had a useful distinction.

Those who view mankinds relationship with the earth as stewardship he termed conservationists. Those who chose to see the earth as somehow the superior, he termed perservationists, because they are trying to hold the current situation static. ('Preserving' the current situation.)

For myself, I also submit that a number of 'environmentalists' are actually Cyannics - Those who coat themselves in Green causes to advance Blue (Liberal) agendas.

Amen! Preach it Brother!
Just don't forget that most of the so-called "greens" are really watermelons -- green on the outside, red underneath.

I'm a proud member of a conservation club whose land management plan includes logging the area behind the current gun range so that it can be replanted in a more environmentally and economically sustainable species mix.

Only wealthy countries
can be interested in the new religion of environmentalism. The problem is if we get too concerned, we are no longer a wealthy nation.

Does anyone wonder if the religion of environmentalism has arisen because of a need to replace all those who doubt Christianity?

Fat people and the environment?
Is Al Gore gonna start going to Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers? Looks like he has a big fat carbon footprint that needs to slim down. Does Obama know that Al is still driving a big SUV and eating all the food he wants?

How Did Earth Survive?
There are estimates that the earth is about 4.7 billion years old and that intelligent life has existed for about 250,000 years. Some suggest that simpler life forms were present on the planet about 3.5 billion years ago. My question is this: Since the modern eco-terrorism movement did not begin until the 1960's, how in the he** did the earth manage to survive for so long without them? It appears to me that eco-crazies are largely delusional since nature rocked along so well before they started slithering out from under their rocks to save the planet. Perhaps these people should try getting jobs and having real lives.

Environmentalism
is good.
Radical environmentalism is bad.
Radical environmental theory equates humanity to a virus; and advocates 'depopulation programs' enforced by global socialist government (UN).
That attitude is making headway into more conventional environmental circles; especially at the global elitist level.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6594554782453026779
http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/editori al-p/index.html
http://www.tldm.org/News10/ExtremistsCallHumanityVirus.htm
There are a lot more sources available.

Don't be fooled.
Radical environmentalism = Global Socialism

Rightmindedmom
On what basis do you assert:
"The free market found solutions to the air pollution." If so, then this would certainly be comforting but I highly doubt it. What evidence is there? Did you research what regulations, laws, EPA actions, etc. forced or contributed to the changes? History is full of evidence that private business is driven by the bottom line and must be pushed into correcting social and environmental abuses. Unfortunately more evidence is provided today by the ongoing shift of business operations to foreign soils where human and environmental abuses are much less of a priority. The challenge is can we compete globally while maintaining a decent amount of respect for ourselves, our fellow citizens and our environment.

KATZ
Re: "My question is this: Since the modern eco-terrorism movement did not begin until the 1960's, how in the he** did the earth manage to survive for so long without them? "

Answer: No industrial revolution until the 1800's which took a little time to show the environmental impacts and for enough intelligent, caring people to recognize them.

Gov-Chartered Marxist Monopoly by elites
Today’s would be aristocrats are trying to institute a new lucrative measure of control and rationing; carbon credits. In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new Excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy, Barack Obama and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite. ( Also include Senator McCain in this attempt to be a Commissar of Combustion)

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen

Recycling and Ethanol
It costs the taxpayers of the United States $8 billion dollars a year to support recycling. Look it up.

I recycle for purely personal reasons.

In my rural area, trash service costs $30 a month. Recycling the trash at the local center is free. You do the math.

Ethanol is a wonderful subject because of the following statistics:

400 lbs of corn can feed a man for a year.

400 lbs of corn can feed one calf to market size.

400 lbs of corn can feed four pigs to market size.

400 lbs of corn can feed 100 chickens to market size.

400 lbs of corn can make 25 gallons of ethanol.

Now, how do YOU think the 400 lbs of corn should be used?

Even if you are a vegan, you use animal products in somethings so this applies to you, too.


Greens and The Consequences
Most "Greens" are watermelons. Green on the outside and red (socialist) on the inside.

Most greens don't want to change how they live, just how you live.

An "Unintended Consequence" of the pursuit of ethanol is that there isn't enough corn around to meet demand so corn oil is in short supply.

So oil makers are using sunflower seeds.

Sunflower seeds to feed birds were $11.95 for 50 lbs. Now the cost is $23.90. Guess how many people have quit feeding or are feeding less?

Al Gore, High Priest of Green
Isn't the idea of carbon credits exactly like the practice of selling indulgences to sin, a preactice which ultimately led to the Protestant Reformation?

Our need for Energy/Conservation
If people felt that they had to make a choice between off shore and ANWAR exploration I wonder which one they would pick. I’d say the Repubs would go for off shore (beyond the horizon) rather than risk the environmental problems with unstable permafrost. And Dems would show their elitist colors and vote the opposite like the Nantucket Wind Farm.

As the Artic is melting and there is the possibility of there being passage through year around , how much of the Arctic does the US own off the Alaskan shore?

Because of new technology and design what percentage reduction of emissions and waste can new plants promise?

Is no net gain on emissions possible? Can two new plants produce less emissions and waste of one 50 year old plant that would be shut down at the end of construction? This way the Dems get to shut down the smelly plant stripping their car paint and we get more energy production and at least no greater output.

What percentage cut in emissions does new plant construction promise? Make the math easier and negotiations and grassroots will in theory be easier.

Will Cap and Trade be the final solution to getting more energy? Seems a very expensive way to force investment.




Lisa
That methodology may have worked with the "old" forms of pollution like sulfardioxide but not CO2. Currently there is NO method of removing CO2 from the effluent of a fossile burning plant. There are methods of removing particulates, most notibly electrostatic parcipitators. (These devices are similar in operation to those little air purifying things you get from Sharper Image.

Thus with particulate pollution a new plant with built in smokestack cleaners vs "add on cleaners" will probably be cleaner. However with CO2 the amount is dependent on the chemical makeup of the fuel and the amount of fuel burned. That is the only thing that controls it.

There has been NO POLITICIAN or greenie yet who has identified what will happen for new industry. With the greens the most likely target for the U.S. is NO NEW INDUSTRY.

Thanks Vic

Do the electrostatic create ozone like the Sharper Image Air purifier?

Does CO2 increase or decrease with ethanol? What are the additional environmental hazards associated with ethanol.

I thought there was a new nuclear plant going up in Maryland near the mouth of the Chesapeake.

Some new sources of energy are going up. T. Boone Pickens is building enough windmills to run 1.3 mil households.

If we can upgrade the utility system small producers could set up all over the grid depending on their environment and resources.

We can shift to electric vehicles in the Cities to sop up off peak electricity.

There are many many things we could do.

We could allow off shore drilling on the East and West Coast as more viable than ANWAR. Nantucket should allow the WindMill Farm offshore. Communities need to be pragmatic about their choices.

I can imagine that these higher energy prices are sufficient for most to have an attitude adjustment and internal pressure about what they are willing to permit in their communities to provide for themselves reliable energy.

Being proacctive is an economic advantag

With rising prices, this is the floor of a whole new ascendancy in the price of energy. If I had the money, I'd be building windmills too.

Lisa
When I retired about 2 years ago several utilities had filed letters of intent with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to build new power plants. That is nothing more than an advance notice. So far, as far as I know, there has been no utility to file an actual request for a construction license or even a preliminary impact statement.

The greens want windmills and solar but the cost is currently 3 times more than the highest cost base load plant currently being used. (Note that IC turbine is the highest to run but cheapest to build but are not used for base load)

What is really a kicker is that the absolute cheapest form of generation was killed by the eco-idiots long ago, the hydroelectric plant.

In any case, these are all for generation of electricity and do not take into account new manufacturing plants.

Vic

What kind of manufacturing do we need? Is it additional capacity to export or for internal purposes?

ex-wyomingite
Great post. The analogy is very apt. Of course, Gore would not lop off heads and toss the corpses from the temple, at least at first, but, the end result of his policy prescriptions will be the same. The deflating spiral that he advocates coupled with the growth of guvmint services to alleviate the worst suffering will be back and forth pile drivers on the economy that will be increasingly unstable until we do something like Gorbachev did and break the country up into smaller pieces and start over.

Before then, some heads might actually roll not unlike the Aztecs but, more like the French revolution.

Lisa
We need ALL manufactering. A country that does not manufacture is on a slippery slope to failure.

All
Time to pack it in for tonight. Back tommorow

The coming energy crisis...
Is totally avoidable.

This week our exalted democatic "leadership" in washington showed us exactly what they're made of.

One day they defeat a bill to open the oil shale lands in colorado ($30/gal oil) and the next day they drag the executives of the big oil companies to DC to berate them over high energy prices...

It's kind of like screaming at your wife for not cooking dinner after you tell her she can't shop for groceries.

Of course the sheeple on the left just blindly follow their "betters" as their "betters" blindly follow the pied piper of tennessee.

Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?


but you are all so wrong...
Environmentalism is both carrot and stick.

Carrot:
Companies know we are more eco-aware and will give us what we want. Low energy light bulbs and appliances are not only better for the environment but also save us money. An example: A friend’s property development company built an “eco-friendly” office tower one year ago – today they and their tenants are saving tons of money on energy bills and facilities management costs.

Stick:
New regulations forces companies to cut down on pollutants, exchange “dirty” products by cleaner ones, etc. This usually saves us all a lot of money as we don’t have to use our tax money to clean up someone else’s mess. An example: just because more people now use more eco-friendly detergents my county’s wastewater plant is saving millions every year.

THIS is mainstream environmentalism - being smart about the environment.

The extremists and the lobbyist will always get the best TV-spots in which to holler but of the hundreds of “professional environmentalists” (working in academia, government, and regular companies) that I personally know sound decision making is the norm.

Environmental Man
When I was in college it was pointed out to a class I was in that man "is part of the environment". To the environmentalists, this is not true. Men stand apart from the environment and only do damage to it (except for them, of course). Therefore all men should be removed from the environment (again, except for them). I've seen articles that insist that high rise apartments should be made to minimize the ground that men take up and all of mankind be forced to live there (except for them). They would live with the environment and protect it. Everyone else would be locked up.

I agree with the professor.

Jackpine Savage

I heard some of the talk about the shale. They purpose containing the heated shale oil with a twenty five foot thick wall of ice to prevent it from seeping into groundwater.

Don't you think the liquified shale will melt the ice? Or does it pumpout as soon as it started to liquify? What about the reminent waste? What about the ground collapsing at extrction?

My conservatism
I'm a Christian and for years called myself a closet environmentalist. Now I'll call myself a conservationist.

We moved to the country 2 years ago to 1.8 mostly wooded acres. I drive 30 miles one way to work, but my car is a bare-bones Corolla. If its not necessary, we have the heat/AC off and the windows open. I have a large garden this year even though I hate gardening. Its being helped by the goodies from my compost bin and not a commercial fertilizer or pesticide is used. We also have 30 chickens in our backyard and when they come of age this summer I'll be introducing fresh eggs to my co-workers and friends and making back a little of the cost it takes to feed my birds, though they free range during the day.

Yes we eat out and buy junk food and have TVs, computers, Wii, cell-phones and all the other trappings of modern living. Still, I like doing *my part*, BUT - its voluntary. It irks the dickens out of me that someone might legislate what I do because they think they know better than I do. Even now stupid laws don't allow me to call my chicken eggs organic because they *gasp* eat meat (bugs, mice, etc). But I'll put their eggs over any eggs you can find in any supermarket anywhere.

Rohanlady

Rohan - We don't have the Freedom to Chose (to use Milton Friedman's phrase). Most would chosee to mitigarte energy costs in a competative innovation market. Current regulation and subsidy doesn't allow for rapid innovation. It stiffles initiative.

There is no ascendancy of the best product because governemnt gets in the way.
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