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Friday, May 02, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tall Tales About Tuskegee
by Jonah Goldberg
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“Based on this Tuskegee experiment ... I believe our government is capable of doing anything.”

So said the Rev. Jeremiah Wright when asked if he stood by his claim that “the government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.”

The infamous Tuskegee experiment is the Medusa’s head of black left-wing paranoia. Whenever someone laments the fact that anywhere from 10 percent to 33 percent of African-Americans believe the U.S. government invented AIDS to kill blacks, someone will say, “That’s not so crazy when you consider what happened at Tuskegee.”

But it is crazy. And it’s dishonest.

Wright says the U.S. government “purposely infected African-American men with syphilis.” This is a lie, and no knowledgeable historian says otherwise. And yet, this untruth pops up routinely. In March, CNN commentator Roland Martin defended Wright, saying, “That actually did, indeed, happen.” On Fox News, the allegation has gone unchallenged on “Hannity & Colmes” and “The O’Reilly Factor.” Obery Hendricks, a prominent author and visiting scholar at Princeton University, told O’Reilly “I do know that the government injected syphilis into black men at the Tuskegee Institute. Now we know that the government is capable of doing those things.”

To which O’Reilly responded: “All right. All governments have done bad things in every country.”

True enough. And what the U.S. did at Tuskegee was indeed bad, very bad. But it didn’t do what these people say it did.

So what did happen? In 1932, public health researchers set out to study syphilis, particularly among African-Americans, who had higher infection rates than whites. They recruited 399 black men who already had syphilis. The doctors infected no one. In fact, the patients were selected in the first place because they were tertiary-stage syphilitics who were no longer contagious.

The researchers studied the progress of the disease, without treating it, for 40 years.

Prior to the availability of penicillin in the 1940s and 1950s, the researchers couldn’t have treated the men even if they wanted to. Even after standardized penicillin treatments were available, it wasn’t clear that the patients could have been helped. Some of the doctors believed that treating the decades-long infections would kill the men.

Among scholars who’ve studied Tuskegee, there’s a lot of debate about how much — if any — racism was involved in the experiment. But no one disputes that Tuskegee had nothing whatsoever to do with genocide or even a desire to spread the disease among the black population.

What was bad about the Tuskegee experiment was a callous disregard for the humanity and integrity of the patients. They were told they were getting “treatments” when they were merely being studied. They were lied to, treated as objects rather than citizens. This is even more offensive today, now that we have modern legal and ethical rules about informed consent — rules that did not exist when the study was launched. But it was still wrong.

But the idea that the Tuskegee experiment somehow validates the deranged, paranoid view that the U.S. government created AIDS to murder African-Americans — in one of the most hideously painful, drawn-out and expensive manners imaginable — is a riot of ridiculousness and a maelstrom of mendacity. And yet, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard guilt-ridden white liberals say exactly that. “Considering what we did at Tuskegee,” they opine, “who can blame them for being distrustful of government?”

Well, as a conservative, I have no problem with distrusting government, nor can I fault the descendants of slaves or the victims of Jim Crow for distrusting government more than most.

But why blacks remain the most reliable voters for the party of ever-expanding government power is something of a mystery. Indeed, it’s worth noting that the Tuskegee study, launched under the New Deal, was symptomatic of arrogant liberal government. The study “emerged out of a liberal progressive public health movement concerned about the health and well-being of the African-American population,” writes University of Chicago professor Richard Schweder. He adds: “The study was done with the full knowledge, endorsement and participation of African-American medical professionals, hospitals and research institutes.”

Liberals like to invoke Tuskegee as if it’s solely an indictment of what other people did, proof that we need more progressive government. But Tuskegee was in fact the poisoned fruit of progressive government.

A sick irony is that Jeremiah Wright’s lies, and liberal apologies for them, make it more difficult for government to do the job these people want it to do, starting with helping people with AIDS. But that’s only one of many reasons they should be ashamed.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Nope
You lose again, moonbats. I made it here first, and started this discussion off right.

Jonah, thank you for another great article.

Keep up the good work and keep 'em coming.

God bless

Great Job!
Hitting the nail on the head:

"Liberals like to invoke Tuskegee as if it’s solely an indictment of what other people did, proof that we need more progressive government. But Tuskegee was in fact the poisoned fruit of progressive government."

Shocked, confused, and a little scared
I don't understand. How does this help me to believe the worst about my country? I can't maintain my pseudo-intellectual airs unless I pretend the bad actions far outweigh the good. I'll be shunned from the good cocktail parties and people will think bad things about me - at least, the only people who count, i.e., progressives. And what will our betters in Europe think? I'll never be able to show my face in Paris again!

Wait, I know another belief I can substitute that is more current: the CIA imploded the WTC. I'm still working on the Pentagon, but I'm thinking it must have been a missile. You know, the Pentagon bombed itself. And those dirty, money-grubbing... um, neo-cons were behind it all. They're behind everything.

Being a liberal means never letting the facts get in the way of a good political narrative.


"But why blacks remain the most reliable voters for the party of ever-expanding government power is something of a mystery."

Fact: All Republicans are racist.
Fact: All conservatives are racist. And evil. And stupid.
Fact: A vote for a Republican is a vote for another black church to burn and another black man to be dragged to death.
Fact: Republicans use fear-mongering to scare the sheepish masses in fly-over country to vote for them.
Fact: Democrats only use the legitimate fear that there's a white robe and noose in every Republican's closet.
Fact: Liberals are by definition pure of heart and benevolent to all.

Vote or die!

The reason it goes unchallenged
is because it's useless to argue: they KNOW, and nothing will ever change their minds. Just like there're people who KNOW that the Duke boys raped that stripper, or the 9-11 example already mentioned.

Hoover was president,
not Roosevelt, when the Tuskegee Experiment began. The New Deal didn't begin until 1933. Sort of reminds one of Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia", doesn't it?

This just illustrates the use of
"The Big Lie". You allways hear this as "the government infected them" and it is taken as unchallenged gospel.

The sad thing is that all of those news shows in which this lie is spread still go unchallenged.

Fictional History
The people who claim to be liberal have made victimhood such a profitable profession, requiring no proof, merely accusations, that people with education, status, privileges and money, like Rev. Wright, are elbowing their way to the trough.

This, of course, requires the manufacture of evidence. Falsify history, malign others, shout, cry, wave your arms, whatever it takes...

This is so easy, no one questions you, everyone wants to be on the side of the victim.

No wonder Rev. Wright can't stop smiling as he rakes in the money.


Truth, The Bitter Pill
In order to feel good about themselves, white liberals need the guilt.

Of course the remedy to this guilt is the truth, and this particular truth is definitely a bitter pill to swallow.

So the better tasting pill is the one that reinforces their belief that America has been, is and will remain an evil place until every wrong to every living and dead person throughout the planet is righted.

Man, do they have a long and very narrow road to follow.

US Bio weapons programs at Fort Detrick
Signatory state to the Biological Weapons Convention

Bioweapons status: Extensive defensive research program

Possible agents (former): Anthrax, brucellosis, botulinum toxin, Eastern and Western equine encephalitis, Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis, Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Korean hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, tularemia, Q fever, Lassa fever, glanders, melioidosis, plague, yellow fever, psittacosis, dengue fever, Rift Valley fever, Chikungunya disease virus, ricin, rice blast, rice brown spot disease, late blight of potato, stem rust of cereal, rinderpest virus, Newcastle disease virus, fowl plague virus

South Africa's white-minority government
By Joby Warrick and John Mintz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, April 20, 2003; Page A01


First of two articles

PRETORIA, South Africa -- Daan Goosen's calling card to the FBI was a vial of bacteria he had freeze-dried and hidden inside a toothpaste tube for secret passage to the United States.

From among hundreds of flasks in his Pretoria lab, the South African scientist picked a man-made strain that was sure to impress: a microbial Frankenstein that fused the genes of a common intestinal bug with DNA from the pathogen that causes the deadly illness gas gangrene.

"This will show the Americans what we are capable of," Goosen said at the time.

To disarmament experts, the case is especially troubling because of the kinds of terrorist-ready weapons produced by Project Coast, a top-secret biological and chemical program created by South Africa's white-minority government, which came to light in the late 1990s. Unlike U.S. and Soviet programs that amassed huge stockpiles of bombs and missiles for biological warfare, Project Coast specialized in the tools of terrorism and assassination -- including "stealth" weapons that could kill or incapacitate without leaving a trace. The program's military commanders also researched anti-fertility drugs that could be clandestinely applied in black neighborhoods, and explored -- but never produced -- biological weapons that would selectively target the country's black majority population.


Face the facts Jonah
Given our history, let's face it. Many in this country would have turned a blind eye if all blacks had been slaughtered or shipped back to africa. Some whites were especially cruel not only to black men, but to black women and children. Women were raped and families slit up.

Some got pleasure in being cruel and many of these people are still bitter as they smart that they should be in a better place due to their white superiority.

Thank GOD for the enlightened white souls.

Grumpy
You're right.

Ronald Reagan said, "It ain't what folks know that's the problem, it's what they know that ain't so."

Damage
Here's a question:

Was the damage done by the research doctors at Tuskegee who watched the progress of a disease for which they had no cure as devastating as the damage done by Rev. Wright, who for decades has been poisoning the minds of children and adults, professionals and criminals, innoculating them against guilt feelings for acting out their hatred for white people?

What has he added to the terrorism of violence and racial hate under which many people live in our communities?

Culpeperson
Hate to burst your bubble there, pal, but the US biological weapons program was shut down over 30 years ago by President Nixon(!), and the research facilities at Fort Detrick, Maryland turned over for cancer research.

Now what the South African government did back whenver has to do with the subject at hand I can't imagine, although I'm sure you will have some half-assed excuse for it...

Watch out Jonah
You are about to be swallowed by the whale, pal. Taking on the tiger, even when right, is never easy. But great piece.

it's not only liberals
but anyone who has a distrust of government that
uses the Tuskegee as an example of what the
government is capable of.

More info
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html gives a bit of the history of this despicable episode.

What is little known is that the Tuskegee Hospital, Black doctors and nurses participated.

Tit for tat
Wright's version
“Based on this Tuskegee experiment ... I believe our government is capable of doing anything.”


My Version
"Based on what the government did at Waco I believe it is capable of doing anything!"


Good morning to everyone
Stop by Fountain Abbey for my latest blog, on a topic that has the old Friar hopping mad.

I can't believe the cr*p that happens in America today. It's high time for some changes, but not the kind Obama thinks we need. What we need is to change all the liberal lunacy that has been foisted on us over the last forty years or so.

freerider, you wrote..
"Hoover was president,
not Roosevelt, when the Tuskegee Experiment began. The New Deal didn't begin until 1933."

You are technically correct, but Hoover had already been defeated in the '32 fall election when the study was just beginning to ramp up.

The insinuation that the Tuskegee Experiment was some sort of diabolical plan dreamed up and quickly put in place by Hoover right before he left office is laughable. I doubt if he even knew about it.

The real story is the fact that the study continued unabated for four consectutive democrat presidential terms.

Finally

I have been waiting for weeks for someone to say this...Thank you Jonah

Make that five
consecutive democrat presidential terms.

culpeperson writes:
US Bio weapons programs at Fort Detrick
Signatory state to the Biological Weapons Convention

Bioweapons status: Extensive defensive research program

Possible agents (former): Anthrax, brucellosis, botulinum toxin, Eastern and Western equine encephalitis, Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis, Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Korean hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, tularemia, Q fever, Lassa fever, glanders, melioidosis, plague, yellow fever, psittacosis, dengue fever, Rift Valley fever, Chikungunya disease virus, ricin, rice blast, rice brown spot disease, late blight of potato, stem rust of cereal, rinderpest virus, Newcastle disease virus, fowl plague virus

The above post is a classic example of how you can lie by omission. All of these programs were defensive in manner. They were studied so the military and civilian govenment could develop vaccines to proctect the population. The reason these studies are done on military installations is for security and because the infrastructure is already set up. I suppose since the govenment is spending billions in AIDS and Alzhiemers research you assume it is so they can be used as weapons as well.

Better Opener
This article would have had much better impact had it started with a line that appears in the fifteenth paragraph: "...the Tuskegee study, launched under the New Deal, was symptomatic of arrogant liberal government." But I'm not sure it needs to be cast in the past tense. To listen to Hillary or Obama, there's still plenty of social engineering left in the current crop of liberals.

Everyone seems horrified by Jeremiah Wright's rantings, but what the right is slow to take advantage of is the point made above: most of what's been done to the blacks in the last century has been done by liberal democrat social engineering. If only McCain were able to articulate that point successfully, he just might start to turn the tide on blacks voting for democrats. Of course, if, as it appears most likely, Obama gets the nomination, McCain can forget about the black vote.

Also of note
There was actually a belated measure of evenhandedness by Washington in the 1950's and early 1960's (actually, this started in 1946 or 1947, after WW2).

Until 1963 signature/ratification of LTBT (Limited Test Ban Treaty), it was legal for US (or any other nation) to test nukes aboveground. Due to several factors (proximity to Tonopah test-range, wind direction at high altitudes, ...) the state of Utah got the vast bulk of the fallout (and the aftereffects thereof).***

Confirms roadkill58's 07:42 post.

Government which started this--Truman (D); ended by JFK (D), due to Harold McMillan having provided him a whore (as JFK had actually refused to go to London without this condition being fulfilled).

**Source: "The Day We Bombed Utah", 1986

King Liberal
Some people hate and complain because it is the easier road to take. In my lengthy life experience, I have found that true of blacks and whites. Tragically, for too long, those who saw the error of the arguments made to sustain and promote this hate and attendant complaints have ignored them. The lack of reaction is attributable to many and varied reasons, not the least of which is the futility of arguing logic and history with people who are making illogical arguments with little or no factual basis.

Of all of the real or perceived problems blacks face today, it seems to me that black on black violence is one of the bigger problems. However, I say that with the caveat that the argument will be made that blacks are disproportionally represented in our prison populations. That is an example of ignoring one reality to distort a contributing factor to another.

When political correctness became the norm, to argue against the 'greatly injured' brought on nothing more than taunts of being a bigot, a racist, a homophobe, and the like. Frankly, I think politcally correct speech has done more to destroy free speech than any bill signed into law. It has certainly tolled the death knell of civil discourse.

Culpeperson re: "Face the Facts Jonah"
So, like braving sniper fire in Bosnia, falsified ‘Bush went AWOL’ documents and my Mothers conviction that it didn’t really matter whether or not I committed a given grievance because it was the kind of thing I would do, the importance of the Tuskegee Experiment story is not its factual accuracy but the extent to which it is validated by the preconceived conclusion it seeks to support? Ever hear of circular logic?

minorities
I am Hispanic and I can attest that companies and society are NOT color blind. They see green. If you can make them money, they will hire or promote you.

If you have the skill or knowledge to get the job done, you get the position.

I know and work with many blacks and other minorities and there isn't the discrimination you speak of. I see those that have the skills get rewarded. Those who do not produce are moved on whether they are black or white.

There are many that will use any excuse to rationalize their failure. Unfortunately, they don't look in the mirror.

Excellent article
Thanks, I learned a great deal from this article.

Interestinly enough, before I finished it, I was contemplating why blacks are for democrats who are for big government. I was thinking of Darwinism and how it spawned eugenics, and euthenasia. Progressive liberal and atheist thought run amok.

And then you follow up my private thoughts with just that.

Excellent, great ammunition!

Goldberg Lies Again
He says no one was infected, but that is a lie, and the NAACP won a large settlement in a court of law. If one want's to learn anything about our history, please don't take anything Goldberg says as serious.

"By then, dozens of the men had died, and many wives and children had been infected. In 1973, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) filed a class-action lawsuit. A $9 million settlement was divided among the study's participants. Free health care was given to the men who were still living, and to infected wives, widows and children."

Half Story
Jonah is correct in pointing out that the government did not infect anyone in the study. But he does neglect to mention that the individuals involved were not told they had syphilis. They were not treated when treatment did become available.

Jonah's claim that none of them were infectious is highly questionable.

When some of the individuals were given their health screening as part of joining the military, they were not told they had the disease and were not allowed to be treated.

Furthermore, men were not told they had a seually transmittable disease, a number reportedly infected their wives, and the result was a number of children born with congenital syphilis.

The real import of the Tuskegee experiment is not even what the government did or did not do. The heart of the issue is that the government, as a matter of policy and much like the rest of the culture at the time, simply didn't accord basic human respect to black Americans.

More on Goldbergs Blatant lies
... at least 40 wives had been infected and 19 children had contracted the disease at ...

Tuskegee myths
Don't forget the other Tuskegee myth of the "Tuskegee Airmen" that they never lost a bomber on an escort mission in WWII. It is a proven fact based on their own 332nd Fighter Group histories at the USAF Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB, that they did indeed lose bombers on escort missions, but they still refuse to issue a statement that they were wrong all of the years.

Semper Fi,

WMR

King Liberal
You missed the continuing breakup of the black family by Big Government. The REAL end of the black family began when Government promised to pay young women who gave birth outside of marriage, so that they could leave their parents' home and live apart, so long as they lived without the children's daddy.

What teenaged woman, black or white, wouldn't jump at that chance to leave those domineering parents?! An additional "benefit" is that those young women would be unlikely to finish even high school and would consequently be unlikely to ever be able to support themselves--the gift that just keeps giving.

Rob
Rob, the government did not infect the original study cases, poor sharecroppers, but the evidence that the wives and children were consequently infected is easily googled. I think Goldberg lied about more things in this article too. For one how could the Tuskegge experiment be "launched under the New Deal," if it stared in 1932. The New Deal didn't start until 1933.

Tuskegee myths
"Mickey writes: Friday, May, 02, 2008 9:49 AM
Tuskegee myths
Don't forget the other Tuskegee myth of the "Tuskegee Airmen" that they never lost a bomber on an escort mission in WWII. "

I believe the myth fully states "They never lost a bomber to enemy fighters." this does not take into account anti-aircraft losses.

OMG!!
You people constantly whine about everything. The facts have been out there for years now we want to change them. Just like the neighborhoods that they carved out for Blacks were always near the dumps. Near sites where polution was rampant.

Blacks always were the testing ground for new and improved medicines, treatments. White people change history rather than admit it.

Where is the proof, we know what the Tuskeegee Airmen did, now you want to try and change that also. Just think if your hero John Mccain would have flown with the Tuskeegee airmen he may not have gotten shot down and caught by the enemy!!

Questions of ethics
Thank you, Jonah Goldberg, for helping to set the record straight. As a nurse-researcher and ethicist, nothing frustrates me more than to hear blatant lies and omissions regarding medical research flying over cable-news airwaves.

Tuskegee started out with more honorable intentions, you know. US public health officials were interested in replicating a syphillis study that came out of Oslo, Norway in the 1910s and 20s; syphillis was spreading particularly among blacks in the 20s and 30s, and the Tuskegee study originally aimed to monitor the progression of the disease and document treatments that mitigated that progression. Funding dried up after a short time, however, until the New Deal rolled around, and the study resumed. Shortly thereafter, penicillin came on the scene, and was in widespread use by WWII. THAT is the real horror of Tuskegee - American researchers, white and black, were so concerned with their study's original premise that they withheld a new, promising treatment. Thanks to those 399+ men, though, we have the Belmont Report, and strong ethical standards for conducting research. The sacrifice of those men ultimately stood for something, at least, and as a scientist, I am grateful to them for the horror they endured.

Of course, one American population DID indeed get injected with disease, in the name of science. Look up the New York Cancer Study, and see how elderly, nursing-home bound Jews in the 60s and 70s were unwittingly shot up with cancer cells to determine disease progression. Where are the Jewish liberation leaders when you need them?!

Liberal ignorance
I am also amazed that Black people belong to and follow like sheep the Democrat Party, which has done nothing but use them. However, Black people - all people - are responsible for learning the truth and not swallowing whole the outrageously ignorant rantings of Wright and the approval of those rantings by Obama whose personal choice was to join and stay in that ignorant environment for 20 years. Obama is a pathetically naive and lost individual. He has no moral or ethical compass and should never be elected.
What also amazes me is how many Jewish people also follow the Democrat Party. Of all people, the Jewish people should understand totally what a liberal government based on socialism - exactly the kind of government that is the heart of the Democrat Party - exacts on the people: submission to the state in all areas, lack of individual rights and protection, total disregard for individuals, rejection of the rights afforded us in our Constitution. David Geffen, a wealthy Jewish mogul, is the primary backer of Obama whose ultra-liberal socialist policies are anti-American in construct and in practice - Is Geffen just as ignorant as Wright or just another wealthy arrogant leftist fool? Doesn't he know what socialism inflicted on the Jewish people and Europe?
Many Americans are just plain stupid and, therefore, gullible. Ignorant citizens are the downfall of a society - interesting that our educational system is controlled by the liberal and ignorant and dangerous left.

Taft and other liberals
Well there is an excellent arguement for government controlled healthcare for ya. Is this what Hitlery and Oblama wants.

Turning on Truth
I have found that many liberals are so conditioned in paranoia that they cannot acknowledge fact. Fact is only challenged with more conspiracy theories and the conversation rambles on without clarity. It is to the advantage of the liberal thinker to indoctrinate paranoia on all levels,so they can ensure their position as "the protector and wise sage". They abuse their position and give people a fall sense of being served.

Political spin in the most offensive way
“Whenever someone laments the fact that anywhere from 10 percent to 33 percent of African Americans believe the U.S. government invented AIDS to kill blacks, someone will say, “That’s not so crazy when you consider what happened at Tuskegee.” But it is crazy. And it’s dishonest.”

I imagine it would seem “crazy” and “dishonest” for those who have never had such a thing happen to their culture in America. However, for African Americans, the legacy of Jim Crow and slavery coupled with the infamous experiment makes the possibility of an intent to destroy blacks quite feasible. Cultural experiences shape worldviews, and it’s quite obvious that the African American experience has been quite different than the experiences of other cultures in America. So what seems “crazy” and “dishonest” for some, is logical and factual for others.

“Prior to the availability of penicillin in the 1940s and 1950s, the researchers couldn’t have treated the men even if they wanted to.” Even after standardized penicillin treatments were available, it wasn’t clear that the patients could have been helped. Some of the doctors believed that treating the decades-long infections would kill the men.”

Penicillin was available after the 1950’s and many individuals who weren’t associated with the experiment received treatment that slowed down and cured the disease. The argument that doctors did not give the men medication because they were afraid of its effect is a bit of a stretch considering there was evidence that penicillin had proven to have a positive effect in treating the disease. Also, one of the primary reasons for the experiment was to see the disease evolve in the men until their death, so I think the doctors made their intentions quite clear.


Political spin P2
“Among scholars who’ve studied Tuskegee, there’s a lot of debate about how much — if any — racism was involved in the experiment.”

Who were these “scholars” and what were they studying? What legitimate “scholar” would argue against the obvious inherent racism in this study? Goldberg stated that the disproportionate amount of black men with syphilis led to the experiment (this is debatable). However, there are a disproportionate amount of blacks that suffer from HIV and Aids? Would it still not be racist to learn more about the effects of the disease by allowing blacks to die without treatment because of their disproportionate infection rate?

Those interested in facts without political spin can read about Tuskegee for themselves in the following links:
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/library/wdc-l ib/historical/medical_history/bad_blood/report.cfm

Truth rules above all!!!

Facts Don`t Matter...
to many blacks. Watching Rev Wright`s mind work provides an insight into the thinking of many blacks. His logic and reasoning were incomprehensible. He lives in a world where there is no truth, no facts, no order. Listen closely to Jesse J. He speaks(and thinks)the exact same way. He has a few pat phrases and ideas which he applies to any situation.

I now understand how OJ, whose blood was found at the scene and whose car interior contained the victims` blood, was found innocent by a mostly black jury. White man`s "facts" didn`t enter their mind. His obvious guilt didn`t matter. They were there to rescue a brother from whitey and they did.

Talking to such people, reasoning with them, writing articles like this one, produces nothing except to give them a platform to spew nonsense.

Rob
I never claimed the government infected them, just that, by not telling these men in the experiment that they has V.D., they exposed their wives and children, which Goldgerg lies about not happening. Also, it clear that Goldberg lied through his teeth to say it was Launched under the ND, when it started in 1932. These few things should tell you of the moral capacity of the man.

Jack, your last paragraph hits the
nail on the head. But notice the past tense you used (emphasis on past).

The great thing about the people of the US is that their willingness to engage in meaningful self-examination and self-correction.

But pessimistic people don't believe that. They'd rather see the glass as half full, and even go back in time 2 or 3 generations to find old wrongs to validate their pessimism. Crackpots then extrapolate and project those past wrongs on to today's issues without a shred of evidence to justify their nutty beliefs.

Optimistic people tend to work to right the wrongs and then move forward. That's not ignoring the past. That's acknowledging that the past is long gone and that we're all better off taking action to make things better today.

Good science will out
Either Mr. Goldberg's assertion that the progress of the disease in these men had reached a non-contagious phase is true or not. It is verifiable, both historically and scientifically.

It is also extremely likely that wives, and hence children WERE infected before the study began. It is important to remember who was responsible for that...the husbands and fathers, NOT government! It is further extremely interesting that some here are totally clueless about that fact.

The attitude among researchers and physicians that allowed this kind of protocol in a study of human subjects was, sadly, hardly limited to black people. This was the era in the U.S. when eugenics had its fullest...foulest...flowering.

Anyone with an interest in the truth would do well to investigate parallel studies and research conducted on people of other racial groups.

Karen
“The sacrifice of those men ultimately stood for something, at least, and as a scientist, I am grateful to them for the horror they endured.”

I understand the intentions of your comments are good, but I think you should look at what you wrote more critically. You are essentially saying that you are “grateful” as a scientist for the inherent racist treatment of black men. This is very problematic.


Wondering
"After the development of penicilin in the 1940s, and it's increasing availability, the doctors in charge of the study found it necessary to go further than deceiving their 'patients'. A treated patient would be of no use to the experiment, and thus, they actively sought the prevention of treatment. This was done via several means: denying benefits ,
and by asking other organizations not to administer treatment to any of the Experiment's subjects."

Knowing what a painful and infectious disease syphilis is, and knowing this stuff was allowed to happen, can one completely blame some Blacks for thinking maybe the government would do this with HIV? Some people are alwasy having conspiracy theories about our government, they aren't true, but it's fairly typical.

Sound Bites

Sounds like our Reverend Wright is "taking things out of context" and only giving "sound bites". Whatever floats your boat, I guess. But, as noted above, what's most important is how many boats this bigoted anti-American has sunk. How many more of his "faithful" will he damage?

This whole affair is such sad commentary on the degree of ignorance that is held up as wisdom.

King Lib
If blacks really DID distrust the government so much, why is it they are willing to fork over all of their freedom to that very same government so that that "distrusted" but "benevolent" government can "help" them?

Ironically enough, they are willing to fork over their freedoms to the VERY SAME people who forcefully stole that freedom during the slavery, then the Jim Crowe, era.

Someone, please help me here. Why is it that now that blacks have the freedoms they've sought for hundreds of years, they are now running to people like King Liberal and other former slave owners to return that freedom in exchange for the "safety" of bondage?

Salty
“Facts don’t matter to many blacks. Watching Rev Wright`s mind work provides an insight into the thinking of many blacks. His logic and reasoning were incomprehensible. He lives in a world where there is no truth, no facts, no order”

I presume that you must know a considerable amount of African Americans to make such a judgment on what blacks consider facts. Please explain to me what was so incompressible about what Rev Wright said or what is so incompressible about what the obvious many Africans Americans you know believe.

King X
In regards to the disproportionmental amount of black males with HIV/AIDS. This is predominatly based on decisions by those same individuals. How many of these males were playing both sides of the sexual arena? How many were sticking needles in thier arms? How many of them are true victims, whose actions did not predicate thier infection.

When a white reverend claimed God made AIDS to kill sinners everyone freaked and castigated him. A black reverend deserves the same treatment.

oh yea
we must all listen to the great TAFT. He is all knowing and VERY honest in his postings as he has no agenda........
Sarcasam OFF!!

New Deal or Not New Deal
Mr. Goldberg is called a liar for asserting the study was instituted in 1932 during the New Deal.

The New Deal is generally considered to have started in 1933. So, we can, at most, conclude that Mr. Goldberg was mistaken on that EXTREMELY MINOR point.

But, without any doubt, the study was CONDUCTED throughout the New Deal. It was conducted by both black and white researchers, and was NOT a racially motivated aberration in the context of the time.

What makes this episode abhorrent is the disregard for the sovereignty of these men over their own persons. This is utterly consistent with the impulse of stateism, and the Darwinist-inspired detachment of moral constraints from science, both of which were rampant in the U.S., as well as the rest of the Western world at the time. Nazi Germany was not an aberration in the context of the time. Compared to the Soviet Union, it was not even the worst example. Both were testaments of where the ascendancy of the state over individual freedoms would take our HUMAN race.

Taft kingxrated and others
If you all could sit back and look at your postings ALL of you seem so excited almost gleeful that you think you have something to beat up PAST government about. Y'all don't care about the men and families. You are just HAPPY you have something you can scream and holler about.

The trouble with medical
experiments of all types, even since the days of DaVinci, is that they are callous in nature in order to be a successful experiment.

I have read books about medical experiments done on people of all stripes and it isn't pretty. Is it necessary to the experiment for it to be so inhumane? I don't know the answer to that, but I expect the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

"Christian" conservative Racist Pigs
An excised cancer tumor would smell better than the spin of this column. This atrocity of NAZI medicine happened within the lives of the reponders to this column. And you people just shine it on.
It is no wonder Abu Ghreb and state sanctioned torture happened on your watch.

By the way, what group of whites had a similar experiment performed on them?

This study continued for 25 years after a cure was in common usage. Please justify that.

Bleeding (no)heart
Actually I think we need to do some more trial and error studies.....Brain Transplants.
You need one.....but I suspect your body would reject it. Or the kool-aaid you obviously drink would kill it

Like Burt's essay today...
...,Jonah's dicloses another reality for liberals. Can't have that.

Lefties, which also means most blacks, love their illusions and when buzz-killers show up with facts, they get testy.

Great job, Johah! 5 stars!


King Liberal
You and others like you continually display the list of wrong doing against blacks and why blacks are justifiably distrustful of government. Question:can whites ever get out from under the list? Question: does this distrust only apply to republican government given that they vote as a black for democrats

Hoover
Republican President Herbert Hoover was president in 1933 when the study began.

To say that, "Tuskegee was in fact the poisoned fruit of progressive government," when the study began before the New Deal is disengenuous at best.

The African-American men in the study were not told that they had syphilis; instead they were told that they had "bad blood".

Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin and information about penicillin, purely to continue to study how the disease spreads and kills. Participants were also prevented from accessing syphilis treatment programs that were available to other people in the area.

Now that doesn't justify thinking that in 2008 the U.S. government pruposefully infects Blacks with AIDS, but as Goldberg says it does lend legitimacy to distrust of the government in general.


Taft
Is it really possible to have syphilis without knowing you have it? Did black Docs & nurses participate in the study?

Enough is Enough!
Jeremiah Wright should be ashamed of himself for his sick, race hating philosophical rants and raves. True Christianity is color blind and he knows it.
He has used that his pulpit in order to become a very wealthy man who will ive out the remainder of his life in the lap of luxury in a predominantly white neighborhood.
Wright is just one more example of DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO. He is a hypocrite of the worst kind because he has successfully convinced both people of color as well as many white liberals of racial injustices that for the most part are no longer real issues in America.
What is in the distant past is past, and enough is enough already.

Talking about lies...
"Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin and information about penicillin, purely to continue to study how the disease spreads and kills."

That is a lie...several, in fact...

New Deal or Not New Deal
Mr. Goldberg is called a liar for asserting the study was instituted in 1932 during the New Deal.

The New Deal is generally considered to have started in 1933. So, we can, at most, conclude that Mr. Goldberg was mistaken on that EXTREMELY MINOR point.

But, without any doubt, the study was CONDUCTED throughout the New Deal. It was conducted by both black and white researchers, and was NOT a racially motivated aberration in the context of the time.

What makes this episode abhorrent is the disregard for the sovereignty of these men over their own persons. This is utterly consistent with the impulse of stateism, and the Darwinist-inspired detachment of moral constraints from science, both of which were rampant in the U.S., as well as the rest of the Western world at the time. Nazi Germany was not an aberration in the context of the time. Compared to the Soviet Union, it was not even the worst example. Both were testaments of where the ascendancy of the state over individual freedoms would take our HUMAN race.

If you are over 35
The Tuskegee study occurred during your life. It is not in the distant past, but within our lifetimes and most certainly within the lives of our parents.

If you are not appalled by the study, it says a great deal about you and your parents, since they gave you your values.

Am I the only one amazed that although just about any ghetto black can produce a video camera to document police brutality, no biblical conservative can do the same when they are being ganged up on by the radical left? A great many straw men are produced, but no video documentation.

Where are the white sharecroppers who participated in this study? Surely Jonah and the rest of you deniers can produced a similar group to diffuse the charge of racism.

Black entitlement...
..is a religion to that race, and to destroy one of their persecution fantasies is akin to heresy.

But don't worry, liberal folks, there's not a MSM talking head that will publicly discuss this article and its reality.

All together now; "nobody knows the trubble I seen...."

No Mystery.
"..But why blacks remain the most reliable voters for the party of ever-expanding government power is something of a mystery."

It is, as the Founding Fathers well knew, a human condition:

"...and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Declaration of Independence.

What the Democrats do to black Americans is, apparently, still sufferable.

If I were Black...
So 93% of Blacks vote Democrat. Maybe Rev Wright is correct when he says African and American Blacks' brains are different from those of European whites. I often start my thoughts with, "If I were Black..." I would vote for legislators who promoted vouchers to get Black children out of the Black Hole of inner city public education. I would vote for the party who worked to clean up the swamp of public housing projects and disperse affordable housing throughout wholesome areas in the suburbs where the schools are better.

I would teach my children to recognize the opportunities for success in this country. I would give them inspiring biographies of high achieving Blacks--the "Condamnesia Rices and Clarence Colons" so despised by Rev Wright. I would insist that teachers, pastors, and community workers help children acquire middle class values, such as use of standard English,(the language of business and commerce) avoid promiscuous sex, drugs, and gang activity, and excel in school.

I once had hope. The Jesse Jackson of old preached, "The doors of opportunity are wide open, but what does it matter if you're too high on drugs to stagger through them? " And, "You're not a man if you can make a baby; you're a man if you can raise a baby." But Obama's church of Black Liberation Theology says it's "non-negotiable that you NOT become middle class."

So much for the "If I were Black" exercise. Here's another exercise: "If I were one of the "white US of KKK" evildoers out there, what would I do? I wouldn't have to do anything. I could not design a philosophy that would injure Blacks more than the Democrat Party's philosophy. It might as well have been written by Rev Wright. The Dems will guarantee a permanent, disaffected, angry underclass, because that is necessary for the triumph of Marxism.

saulsaul
I guess you assumed since taft is an expert on everything else he could educate you on syph also.

culpeperson
So the defense program studies biological agents. You want us to be ignorant of them?
Emphasis on defense there.

Second, some south african brings a deadly agent here and you leap to "it COULD be used against" blacks. Seems like it COULD be used against anyone. Was there evidence of any intent to do so?

Third, you post (as if it were evidence of some kind) that "many WOULD have turned a blind eye to slaughter".

Aside from the leaps in your logic, there's a lot of coulda-woulda.
Doesn't make a very strong case.

editer (12:36pm)
5 stars for you.

King Lib
If you have to change the topic right out of the cute, it's a sure sign you got nothin.

king libturd
Don't worry Sunthe 1 You must have been absolutely correct. See how it really aggravates the libturd.

THEY ARE LYING NOW
The libs are making up even bigger lies during this election and trying hard to pull it off, for good reason.

They have a chance to capture for the next several years two areas if not three of leadership positions. Maybe a presidency, and for sure senate lib leadership for years to come and a united black lib front leadership by a once obscure black lib preacher.

The conn is on and the press is buying it, these two black lib scam artist are pulling a fast one and no one is paying attention.

Ragspeter
At 12:06 you wrote: "The New Deal is generally considered to have started in 1933. So, we can, at most, conclude that Mr. Goldberg was mistaken on that EXTREMELY MINOR point."

It is not an extremely minor point, for two reasons. In the first place, if it were EXTREMELY MINOR, Goldberg would have mentioned it. Goldberg clearly intended it be meaningful. It's also not extremely minor because it is so readily checked. Goldberg's point is that historical inaccuracy leads to a faulty version of what really happened.

You also wrote: "It was conducted by both black and white researchers, and was NOT a racially motivated aberration in the context of the time." In this you are correct in one sense. It was not an aberration at the time. The point being made is that at time, racially motivated policy and practice was not an aberration.

King Liberal
I like how you say it was "conservative" democrats that sponsord apartheid. Nice touch

Re: King Liberal
The hilarious thing about your post is that your understanding of history is severely flawed. First of all, there was a real material problem with people who had been slaves and converting them into citizens. First there were legal issues. But secondly, there were human issues. Now an offer was made to every slave of 2 mules and 40 acres or a ticket to the newly formed country of Liberia. There were two problems with this offer. The first is that Liberia was a tract of land purchased by the US Government which we were turning over to the former slaves that chose to go there without any help or assistance in getting their country started. Interestingly, Liberia still exists and survives fairly well in a part of the world not known for being nice to people or nations.

Secondly, a fair number of unscrupulous people of all races did their level best to fleece the newly freed slaves out of their two mules and 40 acres and unfortunately for the most part succeeded. The problem with both these programs is that aid was given without imparting the knowledge to handle such assistance. All in all, when you consider that this type of aid had never been provided to a large population in the known history of the world it's a small wonder there were issues with that aid.

The "apartheid" you refer to didn't appear immediately it was decades later in the early 20th century.

Rags Writes
"It is also extremely likely that wives, and hence children WERE infected before the study began. It is important to remember who was responsible for that...the husbands and fathers, NOT government!"

It is true that one COULD find out the degree to which the participants were infectious. But that also might be more difficult than you think. We can more readily verify whether the children of those men were conceived before or after they entered the study. Reports I have read indicate they were conceived after. That, at least is something. DO you have any evidence to indicate it is not true?

Finally, your claim that the fathers were responsible is disingenuous. If the government knew they were infected and failed to tell them or treat them, the government is at least 50% responsible.


Editer

First off, is there some reason that your perception of what you would do if you were black has any particular validity? Thought not. Specifically though

"I often start my thoughts with, "If I were Black..."" I would vote for legislators who promoted vouchers to get Black children out of the Black Hole of inner city public education.

No, probably you wouldn't. Because you would realize that the vouchers wouldn't nearly provide the money necessary to get your kid into a good private school. And you would realize that the voucher scam is really just a way for White Christian folks to get more money of thier own kids at the expense of the public schools


"I would vote for the party who worked to clean up the swamp of public housing projects and disperse affordable housing throughout wholesome areas in the suburbs where the schools are better."

No you wouldn't. Becuase you know that the people in those suburbs would never allow such a thing to happen. You might favor more amenable housing inside teh city though, the kind being built right now in most urban areas.

"I would teach my children to recognize the opportunities for success in this country. I would give them inspiring biographies of high achieving Blacks--the "Condamnesia Rices and Clarence Colons" so despised by Rev Wright."

You would probably do that. But you would also point out that Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell , CLarence Thomas, et al benefitted handsomely from affirmative action. ANd you woudl probably poin tout that a bunch odf white reactionaries wanted to shut teh door on that opportunity.

"I would insist that teachers, pastors, and community workers help children acquire middle class values, such as use of standard English,(the language of business and commerce) avoid promiscuous sex, drugs, and gang activity, and excel in school."

Yeah, you would probably do that.

King Liberal
You make a silly comment and I have to prove it wrong? So there were no so called liberals that thought they were maybe , maybe just a bit better than the brothers and sisters of the day.

i guess i could site a case here in Mass, Cambridge to be exact (yes the very liberal Cambridge) a few yrs back where a group of very liberal people Julia Child , Lawence Tribe to name 2 signed a patition to keep a school for black children out of their neighborhood (Brattle St ). They were successful and when asked why he would sign such a thing Mr Tribe , the consitutional lawer that teaches at Harvard said " he didnt realize what he was signing"

Mdoggggggg
As has been stated here today Liberals are the ones for bigger Government ( Bush and co excluded) So on one hand you say how bad the Govt is and on the other you want it bigger and more powerful. Makes sense to me Doggydog

King Liberal
Can you say "Margaret Sanger"? Liberal socialist (redundant terms) who not only believed blacks were inherently inferior, but who birthed the American Birth Control League, in search of racial purity.

Said she: "A stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring."

and,

"It is a vicious cycle; ignorance breeds poverty and poverty breeds ignorance. There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding these things. Stop bringing to birth children whose inheritance cannot be one of health or intelligence. Stop bringing into the world children whose parents cannot provide for them. Herein lies the key of civilization. For upon the foundation of an enlightened and voluntary motherhood shall a future civilization emerge."

Refuting former slave owner King Lib.
You claim it was "conservatives" on "both sides of the aisle" promoting Jim Crowe racism against blacks? Here are actual FACTS that PROVE you are either ignorant or a liar (or both).

- The first minimum wage instituted in the United States was instituted in the early 1930s under the FDR administration (go ahead and claim he was "conservative") for the expressed intention of increasing unemployment among blacks in the construction industry.

- Abortion was pushed hard in the first half of this century by leftists in the US with the expressed intention of eliminating the "unworthy" "black, brown, and yellow" races from the gene pool.

- FDR's first appointee to the Supreme Court, Hugo Black, was a life member of the Ku Klux Klan, as were several of FDR's cabinet members and high level staffers.

- The only member of the Ku Klux Klan ever elected president was liberal Democrat Harry Truman.

- The only current member of our congress who was (or, by some accounts, still is) a member of the Klan is LIBERAL Democrat Robert Byrd.

- During the '70s and '80s, leftists pushing to ban the use of DDT in Africa, after their claims of the health and environmental risks were found to be complete fabrications, then began justifying banning DDT on the basis that it would be an effective form of "population control" in the African continent.

- President William Jefferson Clinton awarded the AUTHOR of the racist document, the "Southern Manifesto", with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Can you even come up with just ONE example of an ACTUAL "conservative" doing ANYTHING that ranks even close to any of that to promote racism in the US?

Can't trust the Gov't
If, as some posters have reiterated, blacks do not trust the gov't because of incidents like the Tuskegee experiments, then why do they constantly expect this same untrustworthy gov't to right all the alleged wrongs and fix every part of their life from welfare needs,education, jobs etc. Why do they keep voting for the party that continually promises, but never delivers, a better and more just outcome? Is this the definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome? If blacks think the gov't continutes to be capable of heinous acts against them, one would expect that Blacks would insist that the gov't stay out of their lives and let them take care of themselves. What am I missing here?

RE: on MDoggg
Anyone else find it amusing that every single thing MDoggg is complaining about, claiming it was all the "right wing's fault" actually was caused by liberal Democrats?

Conservatives KNOW the government lies and screws stuff up, hence the reason we want to MINIMIZE the impact of said government, while Liberal Democrats see the government as the world's saving grace and continually try to expand its power.

Jim Crowe, segregation, discrimination? All those things were the inventions of DEMOCRATS. In fact, to this very day, it is a unique quality to liberals, and liberals alone, to promote racist policies designed to keep blacks stupid and subservient.

But you just keep pointing the finger away from your actions to those who are trying to stop your evil. I'm sure there are those dumb enough out there to buy your tripe.

King Liberal
You say that "people who were 'conservative' in though [sic] belived [sic] blacks not be their equals." You do realize that today it's the people who are "liberal" in thought who do not believe blacks are their equals, don't you?

As evidence I offer the myriad of programs to "raise" blacks by, for instance, forcing "racial preferences" that result in blacks getting into schools or jobs in which they are not equipped to succeed. Statistics show that these ill-equipped students tend to drop out of school; had they entered lesser schools, where they might have succeeded, they might not have dropped out. If they fail to advance in the jobs for which they were ill-equipped, it is excused as racism.

It is men like Wright who discourage blacks from trying to succeed by their own hard work. It is men like Wright who disparage Bill Cosby when he offers good advice.

It is the Dem party that absolutely refuses to authorize vouchers that might allow students from failing schools to become better educated.

Yet blacks continue to buy the false "WE care" and "Only WE can help you!" cries of the Dems. The Dems prove how very much they care by offering to take money from the successful and redistributing it to those who just can't succeed without Dem help, i.e. discouraged blacks--created by Dem policies.

Perpetual victims may gain something by their victimhood, but it isn't success OR self-esteem. And the Dems count on it.

You know what the most ironic thing is?
Obviously King Liberal has never opened up a history book.

He's quacking about how evil GOP is responsible for all the racism (funny, even today that isn't the case...the only racist policies ever promoted these days all come from liberal Democrats, and that is a FACT). Here's a little history lesson:

After the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which brought slavery to the Western Territories, a bunch of disgruntled Democrats and Whigs broke from their parties to found a new party. This party was founded upon the idea of forever banning slavery from the United States. The name of that party? The Republican Party.

Following the Democrats' stunning defeat in the Civil War, the Democratic Party reacted by forming an organization designed to stymie the spread of the Republican Party. The name of that organization? The Ku Klux Klan.

Oh, and one more tid bit that never gets old: While the Republican Party was formed by a collection of abolitionists responsible for forever banning slavery from the US, what eventually became the modern day Democratic Party was founded by a treasonous murderer, former Vice President Aaron Burr.

I think these facts explain a lot about the state of the political parties today.

What would be gained?
Hitler stood to gain politically by first demonizing the Jews, then proposing his "Final Solution" to get rid of them.

Stalin had the same benefits from the starvation of Ukrainian pesants, as did Mao during the disasterous "Great Leap Forward." (Note the "progressive" spin on that term.)

Saddam gassed Kurdish villages to avenge a perceived assasination plot against him.

The US Government has nothing to gain by committing genocide on blacks. As a matter of fact, considering the numbers of black government workers, it would be detrimental to the government to wipe out the black population. Nevermind that modern genocide is always caught (though not usually by the UN agencies intended to stop it) and the world would be looking for something like that to pin on the US.

There's no point to black genocide. None. There's no political gain to be had from it, so it really doesn't make any sense.

Besides that, why, if they were targeting blacks, would the government engineer a disease that passes most easily by way of homosexual contact.

How did they lose the voting bloc?
The Republicans stayed true to their roots.

The Democrats simply started promising "free stuff" to keep them subservient.

Even today, while Republicans are willing to treat everyone as equals, regardless of skin color, your Democrats are sitting back telling blacks that they are so stupid that they need to vote Democrat so that they can give them their share of "free stuff" so they can "compete fairly".

That is what the modern day Democratic Party has become: the party of vote-buyers.

How are you going to buy those votes when Atlas Shrugs, kiddo?

King Liberal, take your own advice
You claim: "Lincoln, a republican, won the black voting block (sic)." Presuming you're referring to Abraham Lincoln, WHAT black voting bloc existed in his time? When did blacks get the privilege of voting?

Take your own advice: "Read some history cause you don't know what you are talking about."

King Lib lies again
"As far as schools inner city schools have always been on bottom end of public poicy for both denocrats and republicans..."

Tell me, your "Highness", why is it, then, that these very same inner city schools are always given funding that far, far, FAR exceeds that of the "threatening" private school just 2 blocks away, yet can't seem to produce kids with a 5th grade reading level?

Modern liberalism is all about dividing people into little categories. To liberals, it's ALL about "the rich" versus "the poor", "backs" versus "whites", "corporate America" versus "blue colar workers", ect.

It is a DEMONSTRABLE FACT that Democrats have, ever since the Civil War ended, diligently worked to "keep the blacks on the plantation". While it may be uncomfortable for you to be exposed as the former slave owner that you are, facts are facts. While your century-long PR campaign may have duped a whole bunch of people into thinking you "really care about the plight of blacks", the IRREFUTABLE FACTS tell a different story.

RE: SNAFU
You watch. King Lib will reply with how all those black voters in Lincoln's Illinois flooded to the polls to get Lincoln elected.

Please note it was a violation of Illinois state law at the time for a black person to even RESIDE inside the state, let alone vote there.

On Margaret Sanger
This is from a 1942 letter by Margaret Sanger, available on the Planned Parenthood Web site: "I think it is magnificent that we are in on the ground floor, helping Negroes to control their birth rate, to reduce their high infant and maternal death rate, to maintain better standards of health and living for those already born, and to create better opportunities for those who will be born."

Sounds like such a racist, huh?

As a result of research...
I can confirm that Mr. Goldberg is correct in saying that tertiary syphilis is, IN FACT, not contagious.

The assertion that all the study subjects were diagnosed as being in the tertiary stage is one I cannot confirm or deny. I would give Mr. Goldberg the benefit of the doubt for two very important reasons---

1. Mr. Goldberg is generally a truthful, careful writer, and, absent VERIFIED information to the contrary, I default to not calling someone a liar

2. IF these subjects were contagious, the simple mathematics of the spread of contagious disease would MANDATE an immensely larger number of people infected by these men.


"Finally, your claim that the fathers were responsible is disingenuous. If the government knew they were infected and failed to tell them or treat them, the government is at least 50% responsible."

Nobody BUT the men themselves was responsible for either

1. contracting the disease

or

2. spreading it to their family members

Anyone who asserts otherwise is simply out of their ever-loving mind.

The statement by that author makes about a dozen assumptions that nobody could support. Chief among them would be that the men had no idea they had syphilis. There is no support for that, and it reveals some interesting assumptions on the part of the author (i.e., these men were so ignorant they were unaware of syphilis and its symptoms, etc.). Second to that would be that, if they knew they had had syphilis, they would abstain from sex. There is no support for that.

The larger argument assumes, further, that the men involved were too stupid to know anything about the existence and effects of the wonder drugs available after WWII in abundance. Again, there is nothing to support that.

And more
To Snafu: On the "sterilization" quote--it is certainly offensive, but there have been several instances of racist quotes falsely attributed to Sanger, so that may be one of them. However, the second quote sounds quite reasonable in many ways. I don't take it as a call to forcibly prevent the poor from having children (see below), but as a wish for children to be born into optimal circumstances. And who could argue with "enlightened and voluntary motherhood"?

From PP Web site: "Sanger always believed that reproductive decisions should be made on an individual and not a social or cultural basis, and she consistently and firmly repudiated any racial application of eugenics principles."

Read more about it
This is at least a source of some information. How accurate it is cannot be asserted...do the leg-work if you doubt anything there.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

How dare Jonah
...confuse us with the facts! He has violated the first law of Political Correctness, which is never, ever challenge a left-wing lie with the truth. Doesn't Jonah realize that entire careers could be destroyed? There is a multi-billion dollar victimhood industry at stake here. If enough people stopped believing in the inherent evil of America, they would stop believing that their failures are always somebody else's fault. And that would prove fatal to one political party.

Jonah, you really should clear your columns with the DNC first.

Proud lib
Are you trying to say Sanger wasnt racist?

King Liberal
If you think that republicans are racists, can you name the first president to introduce a civil rights act and in what year? Hint: It wasn't a Democrat

King Lib... duh -- and Proud Lib
King Lib, Let's see. Your statement ""Lincoln, a republican, won the black voting block (sic)" has now segued into "Well since the first elected black politicians were REPUBLICANS doesn't that mean that blacks were represented by republicans as voting block (sic)?" Far different statements in a vastly different time.

Back the truck up. Focus really hard and try to answer the question about Lincoln: WHAT black voting bloc existed in his time? You made the statement about him winning the black vote so, do tell, let's hear more about that bloc.

Proud Lib -- Margaret Sanger's views on blacks are well-known, as were clearly demonstrated in her books and articles she wrote, such as "What Every Girl Should Know", "Margaret Sanger, An Autobiography", "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda", et al.

Truly snort-worthy...
"I would question your first assertion - as lawsuit after lawsuit has proven, urban schools get less funding than schools in better neighborhoods (i.e. white)- they also get the worse teachers..."

First, as a trial attorney, I can assure you that a lawsuit proves nothing by way of establishing truth. The result is often the opposite.

Second, your statement flies in the face of the FACTS regarding Washington, DC, N.Y. City and Detroit public school funding, results, and employment when set against private schools in the same locales.

Private school teachers are not infrequently paid FAR LESS than public school teachers, especially when benefits are factored in.

TO KING LIBERAL
you wrote: "you can see how the counterculture of crime and discontent has all the nourishment it needs to flourish". I have to agree with Rev Wright..."different don't mean dimished". Maybe all the anti-social/counter-cultural behavior simply stems from those "different" African brains that utilize their neural circuitry so differently that they simply cannot adjust to those "Western-European" standards. Standards of jurisprudence,literature and work ethic. Those rigid brains that were evidenced in Mozart, Bach, Handel, Einstein, Bell, Marconi, Edison..and even the Michigan marching band. It's a white thang..so don't ask!!!Three cheers for "diversity".


TO KING LIBERAL
you wrote: "you can see how the counterculture of crime and discontent has all the nourishment it needs to flourish". I have to agree with Rev Wright..."different don't mean dimished". Maybe all the anti-social/counter-cultural behavior simply stems from those "different" African brains that utilize their neural circuitry so differently that they simply cannot adjust to those "Western-European" standards. Standards of jurisprudence,literature and work ethic. Those rigid brains that were evidenced in Mozart, Bach, Handel, Einstein, Bell, Marconi, Edison..and even the Michigan marching band. It's a white thang..so don't ask!!!Three cheers for "diversity".


Liberals encouraged to respond
It struck me that I have been reading and hearing liberals for some time now defending Wright and Obama going on and on about the failures of this country and/or its government. Many even go so far as to exempt the majority of the population and place the blame squarely on the government. I see such lines as, with our past history, etc.

Since the democratic party based on marxist concepts has been the dominant political party for most of the last 100 years,

"Roosevelt's New Deal coalition usually controlled the national government until the 1970s."

"The Democratic Party dominated the House of Representatives during the administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933–1945), often winning over two-thirds of the seats. Both Democrats and Republicans were in power at various times during the next decade. The Democratic Party maintained control of the House from 1954 until 1995"

How is it that your side, the democrats, are absolved of all the transgressions of the United States that were imposed through a philosophy of government dominance, ie marxism, and you cling to the party that represents more and bigger government?

I already know the answer, of course. The government is a beast whenever it suits your purpose and is benevolent and wise whenever it suits your purpose. Judging from all the talk about our evil government, one would think that liberals would join conservatives in calling for less of it.

It takes a unique mind to call the animal a beast and lobby for its feeding and enlargement at the same time.

hmmmm
Just face it, there is evil people out there who want to kill human beings, Just look what Marget Sanger said. As a previous post said. Just go and see some of the things she said. How she wanted to knock off the "weeds". Guess who were the weeds. She was an evil person and i would say she is not liking it now. what a dumb a__ racist she was. the roots of evolution in her thinking.

How about i go as far to say about the idiots in such groups as "earth first", "earth liberation" etc. Tell me if what those groups think of unborn babies?

Lawsuits, that's what we need
more lawsuits will help blacks get a better education. Yep, that's the ticket.
Study more? Stay in school, don't drop out? Use a condom instead of impregnating a young black girl? Refrain from using drugs? Nope. None of that would ever work. But,lawsuits proving (or not)that money spent in urban areas is not equal to other locals. Now THAT will produce a desirable outcome for blacks (not to mention the lawyers).
Lawsuits! That's the answer!

King Liberal
Do not be confused. I did not mean to say or imply that the racist Dems give money to blacks. Rather the racist Dems take money from the rich (white or black) and facilitate its transfer to the poor, many of whom are black.

Dems are less inclined to give their own money to ANYONE than Republicans are. Check out: http://philanthropy.com/live/2006/11/brooks/ or read "Who Really Cares," by Arthur C. Brooks. Remember when Algor was running for president and it was revealed that his charitable giving was a measly $560 or so? (He explained that he had to save his money to pay for his daughter's wedding.)

And the poor view these Dems as "generous" and thus vote for more of the same. They're buying votes with federal money, that's all. And they then proclaim themselves "caring" and "generous," oblivious to any harm done by their redistributionist policies. Oh, and anyone who isn't in favor of subsidizing the masses of poor people? Heartless.

By the way, who in the world denies that blacks were victims?!! Consider it acknowledged. Now can we get over it and change these victims to winners? Or would that spoil everything?

Rev Wright, Obamba's Vice President pick
Rev. Wright following Obama EVERYWHERE !!

I hear even Guam has heard about Rev. Wright (Obama's pick for vice president).

However, I hear the polls for Obama in Gaza are pretty good (per Hamas).

Liberals: didn't you get the memo yet?
Obamba's bled out (aka bled to DEATH).

It's OVER, get it?

OBAMBA IS BLEEDING TO DEATH, NO WOUND DRESSING OR BANDAGES CAN HELP HIM, NO AMOUNT OF VITAMIN K CAN HELP HIM NOW!

Obamba left a trail of blood following him all the way from Pennsylvania to Indiana.



*vitamin K helps produce prothrombin, which promotes coagulation of the blood. without prothombin a person will BLEED TO DEATH


Jonah
I am some of the "Victims" of the Tuskegee experiment,"Survived".The results were certified by a number of biologist.I guess they count.People like Alex Jones have said worst than Rev.Wright.But I guess Mr.Jones is not so easy to "Discredit".Jonah I hope your Mother is proud.Listening to her son,she probably is...

The Truth- what a novel concept!
Excellent article once again by Mr. Goldberg. His book is great and he continues to be amazing in being able to work his way through the lies and go into the depths others fear to tread- THE TRUE FACTS! The fact of the matter is African-Americans have been persecuted severely by many in our country for more than 75% of our countries existence. The mistrust and doubt about leadership in this country is long standing. That being said, people like Jeremiah Wright who hold deep resentments against some legitimate things in our past are now filling the hearts and minds of their parishoners with hate, fear and resentment on a scale the racists of the past would never have been able to acheive. Our country now stands at a crossroads in many respects. In 1972 McGovern was soundly defeated by Nixon even though Nixon wasn't a conservative by any stretch of the imagination and yet the public perceived the radical, statist and immoral positions of the far left. Fast forward to now, we see the same and even more extreme views being taken but with a public far less inclined to reason or appreciation of long term consequences. Equating Vietnam to Iraq (which is a stretch of large magnitude) we see a populace almost willing to let any unpleasent realities slide by for immediate gratification so as to "feel better" and not be better. I believe Obama still may be elected. Pause and think about this candidate and the 100% liberal rating he brings and the issues he espouses and reflect on the level of naivete in this country and I shutter!

Kind Liberal, et al
As Aquinas says somewhere, 'Even God cannot change history.' So, what's your point? That reparations are owing?

Obama quit your attacks
I don't understand why Obama continues to damage his Mentors' career?

Obama will discard anyone I guess.

Wright hasn't abandoned Obama.

Wright is standing up for his beliefs even while under attack from Obama.

Wright is showing more character than Obama - he isn't throwing his grandmother under the bus.

A Martini for Henry
I never did buy into that equal business; all of us, all races, are indispensable. Let's praise our differences. Because we think ever so differently, we work better as a team. Where would we be without Soul music for instance; or the invention of the electric light to read the music score by? But why did blacks back in the 30's have more syphilis than whites? I thought most sailors at that time were white and you know how that goes. Bringing up truth only deepens the mystery.

Clivesdad
Sorry, but you should have read the thread, Goldberg was proven to be a serial liar. One could get better history watching Sponge Bob.

King Lib
Your 1:09 post to me:
You wrote: ..."you just don't grasp the larger picture.And clearly you don't. You want to split hairs about what happened at tuskeegee moron."

Actually, I haven't posted anything about Tuskegee, much less split hairs about it. I simply observed that you had tried to change the topic. I find that when people don't have an argument, they switch to something they feel they do. That's all.

You have no idea (and would likely be surprised) about what I think of Tuskegee. Or for that matter about the injustices suffered by black people.
You and I probably disagree very little about that, but a lot on what to do about it.

I actually care very much to see people succeed (and because of that might add for you personally that if you wish to be taken seriously, you might leave terms like "moron" and "STFU" out of your discourse)
I won't bother to reply to you in future if that's the tenor of your post to me.

Goldberg's wrong
If you believe the CDC: "the study initially involved 600 black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease."

But the bigger more important question is: Why do white people have to be "Evil" or "Racist" in order to do something wrong?

It is easy to say something in the past was wrong, but what do you say today when a white person does something wrong to a black person?

Unfortunately because matters involving race have been highly politicized white conservatives prefer to go on the attack when issues of race come up.

1. Politics need to be taken out of the discussion of matters of race.

2.Bad behavior should be treated as bad behavior.

3. There is no: one problem or one solution to matters concerning race.

And Why
But why blacks remain the most reliable voters for the party of ever-expanding government power is something of a mystery."


Answer is simple

1. Where are the empowerment zones ?

2. Where are the school vouchers not funded by raiding public school funding?

3. Where are the whites going down into our inner cities and training law abiding blacks to protect themselves and their neighborhoods using their 2nd amendment rights?


Actions speak louder than words. Conservatives talk a lot but do nothing.

King X...
"Please explain to me what was so incompressible about what Rev Wright said or what is so incompressible about what the obvious many Africans Americans you know believe. "

Chuckling...King, the above quote from your post makes my case so well, nothing else need be said.

wizzyg...
Our "empowerment zones" are called "homes", the kind with two parents.

Why shouldn`t people who pay the school taxes get to choose where their kids go to school? Sounds quite racist to insist that they aren`t smart enough to choose a school for their kid. You should be ashamed.

Obviously, you haven`t visited many "inner cities" to see that the most effective programs helping poor kids are sponsored by churches and civic orgs like Goodwill.

Like most libs, your feelings override the facts.


to SNAFU and Sparky
Yes, I'm saying Margaret Sanger was not racist. And the weeds comment is a fabrication.

Salty
Funny, but if you are serious what you're saying is that conservatives especially black conservatives are lying to blacks in order to get there votes by promising empowerment zones.

To your second point why should people who don't have fires pay taxes going to fund the firehouse?

Third there is no 2nd Amendment debate in America only a question.... who's going to protect you from the minorities. liberals say the police, conservatives say whites themselves. NOBODY WANTS ALL LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS OF ALL RACES TO BE ARMED!

But in general conservatives have yet to put conservative ideas into action and effect in the black community and thus why blacks shouldn't vote for them

Proud Lib: Margaret Sanger not a racist?
If Sanger doesn't qualify as a racist, then there are no racists. She made it clear that, through eugenics and abortion, she wanted to eliminate blacks. What part of that don't you understand?

wizzyg
I rather agree with you that anyone who knows he will never have a fire (or other emergency) should be able to agree to never use the fire department and then be exempt from paying the taxes to fund the firehouses. It's hardly similar to school choice though.

And congratulations on making the 2nd Amendment question a racial issue. I've never heard it termed as such before and would have never thought of it. Thank goodness you have a hair trigger (no pun intended).

Blacks should definitely continue to vote for those who'll keep them poor but lazy, angry and stupid. Unless, of course, you happen to be a black who'd like to make something of yourself.

wizzer
Nothing funny about trying to raise a child without a father in the home. Do you think there might be any relationship between the 70% illegitimate black birth rate and 1 million blacks in prison?

Typically, the lib thinks personal responsibility is a joke and the real answer lies in yet another gov`t boondoggle, this time called "empowerment zones". There`s the joke, wizz.

wizzyg
wizzyg writes: "But in general conservatives have yet to put conservative ideas into action and effect in the black community and thus why blacks shouldn't vote for them."

Well dumb-dumb, Detroit was offered $200 million "by rich white folks" to build brand new Charter schools. Not religious schools, just plain secular schools.

Your fellow slave-masters turned them down. Like you, they felt threatened by well educated Black boys, who just might become something other than a future prisoner.

You see wizzer, you have low self-esteem. You prefer Blacks to be ignorant, so you can appear smarter than you are. Without ignorant Black folks to degrade, people like you are nothing but trailer trash.

Polly
haha what happened to personal responsibility. how could you blame anyone else for blacks being poor.

wizzy
You wrote: "NOBODY WANTS ALL LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS OF ALL RACES TO BE ARMED".

I don't know where you got that idea. Or the other one you spewed about "needing protection from minorities".
Don't flatter yourself.

The idea of an armed citizenry (the 2nd amendment) is to keep the government in line. It was an overbearing government that our founding fathers feared.

Carlos
Attack attack attack! wow I see you have nothing to say so you go and call people names. First off I'm not conservative, liberal, or independent. Nor do I push any of those ideas. So try using what brains you have to make a intelligent argument. Second I'm from the Caribbean so my slave masters are long gone, I've worked everyday since i was 14 now I make 75k + so my self esteem is great. Sorry you can't handle the truth!


Carlos Right On
Carlos you hit another home run!

Keep this up and you will set a record no one can match!

Good Post!

Government contracts
The Liberals made a contract with poor women.

1) Don't work and we will sustain you.
2) Don't marry anyone who has a job and we will continue to pay.
3) Have illegtimate children and we will pay you even more.

When everyone complains about 70% illigitemacy and broken families and men not in the home.

The liberals say it is those da*n conservatives they won't give more money for this solution.

All about me
What wrong in the black community:

Blacks have for to long tried to make it day to day by any means necessary. This has led to black males taking short cuts in order to get by.The drug game is the biggest short cut. The push by society in general toward materialism also pushed blacks away from thinking about the future and just on today. And you can't get ahead by taking short cuts. There problems facing to the black community that are external need to be addressed. And there are internal problems as well. On boards like this one the push is to only blame one cause and come up with one solution.

wizzyg give some facts
There are rich people with self esteem who are morons.

Poor people who are geniuses.

I was making 75$ 25 years ago before I started making real money what does that make me?

State some facts not opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wizzyg
wizzyg wrote: "...the push is to only blame one cause and come up with one solution..."

Name some causes and quit calling your opinions facts!

Name some solutions and quit calling your opinions facts!


Enlighten us.

wizzyg and Racism
wizzyg you are a racist when you say 'blacks' or 'whites' or 'hispanics' and then describe a whole race by your opinion.

That is blatant racism!

Illegtimate back children
Most black babies are born to single middle class black women with college degrees......And good jobs. If conservatives actually promoted tax cuts toward married working poor couples and not upper middle class ones you could increase the marriage rates in those communities greatly. Why do you never hear conservatives talk about or address the "working poor"? I said the "WORKING poor" and before you start remember that conservatives say they want to promote marriage? Put you tax cuts were your mouth is.

Retired Geek
Say what you want does it really matter what you call me?

Retired Geek
The point was you have have to call me names because you can't challenge what I say.

wizzyg
I am not calling you any names.

When I say you are a racist I am stating a fact by any definition.

Sow me any name calling by me.

wizzyg...

I hit the nail on the head. You really do need "poor Blacks" to help you feel important.

I'll tell you a secret... Blacks don't need your help. They did much better before liberals like you starting telling them what to do, what to think, and how to think it. The only thing feminized liberals should do is step-aside and allow Black men be men.

I'll go with SunThe1... let every law-abiding Black man in America carry a loaded pistol anytime, anywhere, and for any reason. And then watch the "conservative-cure" solve the "Liberal-curse" in a couple weeks time.

Easier done than said.

wizzyg
You are entitled to your opinion but not your OWN facts.

have a good evening and a good day tomorrow and examine yourself.

Define help!
If blacks are equal why can't they petition the govt for tax breaks like any other group.

R U
Are you calling tax cuts and tax breaks govt handouts?

Correct
I'll go with SunThe1... let every law-abiding Black man in America carry a loaded pistol anytime, anywhere, and for any reason. And then watch the "conservative-cure" solve the "Liberal-curse" in a couple weeks time.

Let every law-abiding man or woman in America carry a loaded pistol anytime, anywhere, and for any reason. whats wrong with that? Nobody is racist so there won't be any problems right?

wizzyg
You said "If conservatives actually promoted tax cuts toward married working poor couples and not upper middle class ones you could increase the marriage rates in those communities greatly."

Get a load of this: poor people don't pay *any* federal income tax. Working poor couples don't pay them, either. How do you cut 0%? What is less than 0% income tax. Oh, wait: that's the federal handouts they get!


Nature of Medical Research
The flaws of medicine revealed in the Tuskegee syphilis study have nothing to do with race and everything to do with vulnerability. (Notice, they were not wealthy blacks in the study.)

The history of medicine, including its practise today, reveals medical professionals of all races and ethnic groups will experiment on anyone who is accessible, cooperative, trusts them and will ask no questions. That includes poor whites, the middle class of all colors, and the rich who trust their doctors.

The problem with the Marxist and racial ideologies so popular among black intellectuals and filtered down to the rest of the community is that everything normal human that happens to them, e.g. refusal of a job, being turned down for a date, bad medical care, is all explained as racism. This ideological blindfold prevents them from learning from experience.

Taxes
A working poor couple filing jointly making 50000 per year with one dependent will pay 3000 in taxes.....just facts according to the conservative Heritage Foundation

Someone please answer
Why are you calling tax cuts government handouts?

Jonah,Lucianne's #1 Son.
Jonah,you should be ashamed.You are taking away another crutch.How do you expect some folks to agree with you? This has been misrepresented for as long as I can remember.It was bad enough,as it was,but the right people should take the blame for it.Thanks.

wizzyg: $50k = poor?
Your definition of "working poor" is pretty generous. $50k might be poor in NYC or San Francisco, but that's by no means "poor" outside urban areas.

The handouts doled to the less productive are called (un)Earned Income Tax Credits or some such. Some might call it a negative income tax, where the takers are given the earnings of those who worked for them.

Anyway, I thought you'd be relieved to know that the "working poor" don't have to pay federal income taxes, thanks to the conservatives who fought for tax cuts.

proud lib. retroactive abortion for you
Sanger is a wanker. Planned parenting in her mind is liberals plan your family and not the family itself. Over TEN MILLION black babies have been killed since the legalization of abortion. The black abortion rate is currently the highest of all ethnic groups in the USA.

You all are worried about 399 syphilis victims and justify it by an obama or hillary vote. Crap obama and his current day pro baby killing voting record is more abominable than than a 7 decade ago unjust medical experiment.

Syphilis is a terrible disease. I have had it twice. I caught it once from a door knob and another time from a toilet seat at o'hare international prior to those automatic lid sanitary condoms. Why me I asked, just like the 399 in 1932. Just innocent bystanders touching the wrong door knob I guess.

Don't forget to thank your mother next week on her special day that she didn't abort your arse. Thank goodness for you she didn't let sanger plan her family!!!!!

One lies the swears by it
Victims like to perceive the world as damaging their perfection and opportunity. As such, they only seek evidence which supports this view.

New facts or new evidence to the contrary is rarely utilized to shift a paradigm.

Sadly, both parties participate in this childish behavior and these Wright lies are just more of the same. Jonah helps clarify it, hopefully not to deaf ears.

Wright lies about it and Obama swears to it.

mike
Trying to equate medical doctors withholding information from a patient about their condition and a woman making a choice for herself regarding her progeny, are two very different subjects.

You want to conflate the two in order to gather support for your distaste of abortion. If you have distaste about abortion, that's fine, no one would tell you to feel otherwise. Certainly don't have an abortion.

However, it infringes on the civil liberties of women to think you have some authority by which they should manage their own bodies and pursuit of their personal happiness.

When it comes to another's personal civil liberties, you might well be reminded that one day your choice in life may lead others to decide that choice is so distasteful that you shouldn't be allowed to make it.

And where will you be then?




wizzyg (11:35pm)
You seem to be saying that law abiding citizens of all colors should NOT be able to have guns because there is racism.
Well, that's the best I could do interpreting your post.
If that IS what you're saying, I find it pretty odd- are you saying people would shoot each other based on race? Here's a newsflash: men and women of any color who are law abiding (and unfortunately otherwise) are already carrying.
What is your point?

scooternyc - as a former fetus I object
S-nyc,
You make my point exactly. What about the civil liberties of the 10 million black babies aborted. That makes slavery look like a worker release program. It makes the syph 400 seem like a mecidal clerical error.

I am not sorry for my choice that would inconvenience a killer of the innocent.

Your attitude is that of like saying the trains ran on time in hitler germany.

you are quite the optimist at the expense of the innocent. Typical lib.
Don't forget to thank your mom for not having your brains sucked out half way through the birth canal. A perfect mother's day sentiment.


bobDoyle
"But Tuskegee was in fact the poisoned fruit of progressive government."

***

Would you care to explain that statement?

Goldberg
Now that we are about the business of sanitizing
the Tuskeegee doctors just as Annie Coulter has
been sanitizing Joe McCarthy, I will give you
my own opinion on the subject.

The Tuskeegee doctors were a shameful, racist
lot. This experiment (the untreated side) was
done entirely on blacks. Once a cure for syphillis had been found, they did not then call off the experiment and treat them.

As for the correlating AIDS thing, I heard some
such rumor back 20 years ago, and thought it
was a completely absurd and outrageous idea.
Today, I still maintain that it is but only
because I believe that those who would like to see it happen are too stupid to actually
make it happen.

I have sort of changed my ideas about what people
are capable of (not just the lone nut case, but
large groups who actually live in our society)
right around the time that I started checking into Town Hall. Even given that people will say
things in an anonymous fashion that they won't
say in "polite" company, this place can be real
scary at times.

People really do hate blacks, hispanics, women,
Muslims just because they are blacks, hispanics,
women, and Muslims - or anyone who isn't them.

skipping39
"and enough is enough already."

****

I couldn't agree more. The next time you feel
the urge to write about Mr. Wright, please skip it.
He isn't running for President. And I am told
that he has been retired . When you find someone
from his congregation that has actually committed
some crime against humanity thanks to Wright,
check in again.

g-berg
I thought the Tuskeegee 399 was a nascar race.

AIDs was started due to homosexuals misbehaving and contaminating the worlds blood supply. In countries that homosexual political correctness is not observed and the quarantining of aids carriers was enforced it pretty much nipped that problem significantly.

Your people hate rant seemed to exclude whitey, crackers and honkeys.
Quite projecting your heartfelt beliefs to the rest of us.

virrudh
You assert that posts on Townhall have led you to believe that "People really do hate blacks, hispanics, women, Muslims just because they are blacks, hispanics,women, and Muslims - or anyone who isn't them."

I'm asking this genuinely: where do you see that? I see very little that would add up that way. (I will admit that I do scroll by some people's posts, and I don't read all the articles, and there are occasional nutjobs, many of whom are liberal, but you seem to make a case that racism is widespread here).
I have seen people be very critical of Rev Wright and of Mr. Obama. Does that add up to hate on race? Maybe you read that, and in your mind it registers as hate.
I have seen some noxious posts (and used the flag button), and when I do, I call people out on it, as many others here do.
Can you give some examples of blatant racism that went unchallenged?

virrudh
You are quite right. There are people who hate blacks just because they are black. There are people who hate whites just because they are white. So what else is new? Those of us who don't particularly care for this situation like to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. In the mean time, its difficult to be patient with those who have a vested interest in maintaining victimization and pessimism.

Unaccountability
is the key to atrocities like that Tuskegee debacle. No body ever paid. Just like no one ever paid for the murder of Randy Weaver's wife, or the 89 dead at Waco. Its why public education is so poor, and why the social security Ponzi scheme is tanking, and no one will go to jail. Its not a R or D problem, its govt itself. Its just dam near impossible to fix responsibility when the "government" messes up. by very nature, a career in govt appeals to those who want security, nonaccountability and who play CMA as a matter of course. The paramount sin is to make anybody else in govt look bad, and the ultimate outcast is the whistleblower.

Sunthe1
You really do blow by a whole lot of posts and posters if you haven't spotted this before.

I need to leave shortly because my daughter is
singing in a choir on campus in an hour and I
am going to hear her. Maybe I will have the time
and energy to find samples when I get back.

But for starters - Demosthenese. You find his
name, he is like a fly tap. The women lib
haters (that is what they call it, but trust me the vast majority couldn't build a relationship with any woman with their attitudes), will swarm
to the site.

If you want examples of homophobes, look for the
name of Carlos and I believe another is Luis. But I would have to recheck that one to be sure. Carlos is defintely another fly trap.

Finding the Hispanic and Muslim haters
might be a little harder because that is not the
hot topic this week. But if you do a word
search on Barack "hussein" Obama, you will probably find at least a few of the Muslim haters. And for black racists, well, "Wright" had been doing the trick, though that is sort of
running out of steam by now.

Look for any topic on illegal aliens and you will
find the Hispanic - haters. They aren't just
ruining our economy, they are lazy, illiterate,
hate-this-country felons. It is really amazing
how truly awful one race can be.

If you want to find those who can't stand
rednecks with arsenals in the garage, do a word
search on my name.

Come on, surely you are just being disingenuous.
You cannot have missed all of this. Well, perhaps more later.

But this website is going to have work better than it is now. I type an entire sentence before anything
shows up on the screen. I can't believe how
operationally flawed this site is.

I apologize to black Americans.......
for slavery that was forced on blacks over 100 years ago by white Americans and black African slave traderseven if you were not born yet.
I apologize for any harm caused by the U. S. government in the 1930's by people I did not vote for or even know, even if I wasn't born yet.
I am sorry some of you feel that even though the wrongs have been disclosed and many changes and afirmative actions have been enacted you are still disadvantaged.
I am sorry some of you cannot see that you are only limted by your self doubt in a country that gives equal opportunity for education and wealth to all.
I am sorry that some of you will never accept anything as enough to justify bringing your ancestors to the America you are now priviliedged to live in.
Now can we please move on...for your sake and that of the country?

Margaret Sanger
I too take issue with the assertion that Margaret Sanger was not a racist. The eugenicists, whose ideals Margaret Sanger openly and proudly aligned herself with, of the early twentieth century did undoubtedly embrace racial superiority as well as racial purity. The aim was to discourage reproduction of the "unfit" and encourage reproduction of the "fit." Sanger embraced and wrote enthusiatically about the racist and kookie eugenics theories of Thomas Malthus. Read more on or just read her book "The Pivot of Civilization," (if you can find it) to hear her sing the praises of Malthusian eugenics and yes to repeatedly call for the elimination of "human weeds" and the sterilization of the racially inferior. Her writings in the "Birth Control Review," and much of her personal correspondence echoed these themes. She was cunning enough to couch her "Negro Project" as concern for blacks when enlisting black ministers for help, giving Planned Parenthood some counter quotes to whitewash her character with. I could go on and on, but to simply declare Margaret Sanger was not a racist and cite Planned Parenthood's website as proof is, in my opinion, silly.

viruddh
It's ok, you don't need to search for samples. I was more interested in the gist of your thinking -- for example, whether you were interpreting all posts critical of Mr. Wright or Mr. Obama as race-based, as most (many?) are certainly not.
It seems you're not doing that, but pointing out that there are posts/posters that are driven by bigotry. I'll have to agree with you there.

There are also posters who go off half-cocked, assert information that isn't true, and dissemble to name-calling. I often respond when I see those things, as well as lapses in logic.
I recently responded (perhaps for the last time before putting him on scroll by) to King Liberal for calling me a moron, idiot and telling me to "STFU"--all because I observed that instead of addressing the topic, he was attempting to change the subject.
So, you're correct. There is an interesting mix of opinion here. Some of it is thoughtful, and some of it deserves a response when we see it. I have experienced some positives when I've called someone out on something, but alot of the time, they either don't respond, or get uglier. That's what my scroll wheel is for. I use the FLAG when it's too offensive a spew to acknowledge any other way.

wizzyg
Where did you get the idea that most single black mothers were college grads who worked? I know a lot of single black moms - and most aren't even high school grads. Nearly all are on Welfare. Many sell drugs to get more spending money and teach their children to do the same thing. Some of these drug families are in the third and fourth generation. The ones who do work, work hard for only a few dollars at the jobs they can do, clerking, janitorial, etc. They are the ones who have my admiration.

Excellent article, and COURAGEOUS
Great article; hope you are prepared for the vicious backlash you'll get over it.

Many leftists don't like having the facts about their core mythical events revealed.

Just a minute
mike writes, "AIDs was started due to homosexuals misbehaving and contaminating the worlds blood supply. In countries that homosexual political correctness is not observed and the quarantining of aids carriers was enforced it pretty much nipped that problem significantly."

A new virus came from somewhere, god only knows where, and found a means of transmission within the gay population. The virus has a long onset period that made the spreading of it even more tragic. The person that was infected did not know for sometime much later that he/she was infected. At first there was no blood test to determine if someone had it, or a blood test to determine if the blood being given by someone had HIV. The US government and blood banks in the early 1980s stopped taking blood from men who had had sex with men. I don't remember any countries that quarantined AIDS carriers. And, nipped something in the bud.


Tuskegee
I have heard time and again the facts distorted about the Tuskegee experiment. Please just the facts straight.

Here's what he fails to mention...
Nearly 400 poor black men with syphilis from Macon County, Ala., were enrolled in the study. They were never told they had syphilis, nor were they ever treated for it. According to the CDC, the men were told they were being treated for "bad blood," a local term used to describe several illnesses, including syphilis, anemia and fatigue. At the start of the study, there was no proven treatment for syphilis. But even after penicillin became a standard cure for the disease in 1947, the medicine was withheld from the men. The Tuskegee scientists wanted to continue to study how the disease spreads and kills. The experiment lasted four decades, until public health workers leaked the story to the media.

By then, dozens of the men had died, and many wives and children had been infected. So, essentially, by not treating the disease, the government allowed it to spread to women and children, many of whom later died. Technically, that's not injecting, but it has the same effect.

Also, he writes, "Among scholars who’ve studied Tuskegee, there’s a lot of debate about how much — if any — racism was involved in the experiment." Really? Then why were only POOR BLACK MEN used? But, that's not evidence of racism, right? I guess the victims at Auschwitz just happened to be Jewish...

concerned
i have to admit that i'm getting a bit concerned about some of the content on this site. in the past year, we've had Medved argue that slavery wasn't that bad and we shouldn't feel so guilty about it, and now this crap about Tuskegee arguably not being racist? this site is losing credibility by the day...

swampfox wow!
s-fox,
Wow, you admit that the us gov't didn't cause the aids virus? Or does your "god only knows" statement still leave that possibility open for you?

The countries who are friends of liberals did or still quarantine HIV positive humans. P J. O'rouke wrote about it regarding Cuba. The prez of Iran states there is no HIV or homosexuals in his great country because islam forbids this behavior. N. Korea antiviral program consists of lead poisoning via a nicely made illegal replica of a colt 9mm. The african epidemic has whole hospitals and tented facilities with quarantined hiv victims left to die.

If you want to believe in the gov't fairy is causing all the consequences of man's inappropriate behavior then do so. It seems those who are acting inappropriate need this to continue in their risk with a clear conscience.



To mike
Cuba? North Korea? Iran? I guess you believe in the tooth fairy. None of these countries has a credible government on the issue of AIDS in their country. As for AIDS patients being left to die in tented areas in Africa ............ provide me with a link. I have no doubt that some people in Africa are left to die in tented areas who are dying of a number of diseases. Magic Johnson has been living with HIV since 1991. No the government didn't create this virus. Viruses seem to come out of nowhere. Now will you tell me where the 1919 flu virus came from? Smallpox? Measles? Whopping cough?

Inappropriate behavior by humankind? I guess you are referring to men having sex with men. Anal intercourse is practiced by heterosexual couple, perhaps more frequently than men having sex with men........or, could you think that blood transfusions and organ transplants is the inappropriate behavior?

To Mike
Would you care to comment on hepatitis C? From where did this "new" virus come?

To ira
From the article, "In fact, the patients were selected in the first place because they were tertiary-stage syphilitics who were no longer contagious." Now how did they infect others?

swampfox....STD?
It's called a sexually transmitted disease for a reason.

I know that monogamous relations between you and your boyfriend means sharing an apartment and splitting the utilities. But monogamy for the rest of us means a lifetime exclusive relationship with one sexual partner. You can have anal sex all day long with that one partner and except for a sore butt and stinky crank, no disease will be passed on or no new strain will occur if you started disease free.

Regarding blood borne pathogens. The same holds true for this. Don't share the blood of an infected carrier. Hep C is the one right after B.

The flu of 1919 is no mystery. It spread just like the flu does every year. That strain and the medical understanding and capabilities f the day made the result.

The USA is the best place to have HIV hands down. Great antivirals available and you can even collect welfare when you contract the disease.
See how well you make out in N. Korea, Cuba or Africa!!!

Magic Johnson's inside game was marginal and his free throws pathetic.
My rule would have worked for him. If he stayed monogamous he would not have contracted aids, the politically correct STD,

google" HIV patients quarantined"
Cuba is not the only country.

the below copied without permission.

Cuba allows group to launch comprehensive AIDS program
posted 8-9-97

Cuba, which until 1994 quarantined all HIV-positive patients until they died, is now allowing the international aid organization Doctors Without Borders to design and implement a public health campaign to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Cuba has the lowest HIV prevalence in the Caribbean, according to the World Health Organization, with 1,655 known HIV-positive individuals among 11 million residents. However, infection rates are on the rise. In the first six months of 1997, 100 new HIV cases were reported, the same number as was reported in all of 1996.

Vera Bensmann, MD, head of the Doctors Without Borders Cuba mission, said that HIV in Cuba is transmitted almost exclusively through sexual activity. Because there has never before been a large-scale AIDS education campaign in Cuba, much of the population remains unaware of the routes of HIV transmission and the need for condoms, Bensmann said.

When Doctors Without Borders arrived in Cuba in 1996, the first priority was to import 6 million condoms. "Small awareness programs about the need for condoms were in place, but no condoms were available," Bensmann said. "We provided all the pharmacies in Havana with an unlimited supply, as well as supplying bars and hotels."

The Doctors Without Borders campaign is also working with the Cuban Ministry for Health to develop an AIDS information and coordination center to provide services including counseling, an information hot line, and a resource center, Bensmann said.

Related Sites
International Web Sites of Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders)
Doctors Without Borders USA


Liberal Democrats not at fault
Jonah,
Good column but you can't blame the liberal Democrats for Tuskegee. Hoover was still president in 1932. You are correct, however, that liberals love to perpetuate myths about Tuskegee.

To John
Myths abound about nearly everything. How many people think that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill Kennedy. That debate will never end. For some reason people love to think that everything is a conspiracy.

They do not corner the market
The United States Gov't continues to operate similar to the Tuskegee Project. Just ask men and woman who suffer from the Gulf War Syndrome! They were given experimental drugs by the US Military without consent and the Gov't continues to deny the existance of the Gulf War Syndrome!!So was this act racially motivated as well?? Tell that to all the white folks who are suffering everyday!!!!!

Swampfox, et al, let's be real
Swampfox:
If one speaks with authority, sheeps will follow. I'm sure that you have been told not to believe everything you hear. First, there is no evidence that the US infected African American men with syphillus. The absence of evidence does not disprove the proposition. The bottom line, what can be proven, is that 1) during most of the experiment there was a known cure; 2) the US knowingly and intentionally allowed men to die from this disease in order to study the progress of the disease; 3) the US government intentionally prevented infected African American men from receiving treatment from the military by exempting them; and 4) the AFrican American doctors and nurses that participated do not represent African Americans any more than the treasonous Americans who have assisted the Taliban and/or other terrorist in their actions against the US represent American. The above-cited actions of the US government are dispicable regardless of whether they actually infected anyone.
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