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Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Genocide Loophole
by Jonah Goldberg
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Last week, Russia's lower house of parliament passed a resolution insisting that Josef Stalin's man-made 1932-33 famine - called the Holodomor in Ukrainian - wasn't genocide.

Not even the Russians dispute that the Soviet government deliberately starved millions. But the Russian resolution indignantly states: "There is no historical proof that the famine was organized along ethnic lines." It notes that victims included "different peoples and nationalities living largely in agricultural areas of the country."

Translation: We didn't kill millions of farmers because they were Ukrainians; we killed millions of Ukrainians because they were farmers.

And that's all it takes to be acquitted of genocide.

The United Nations defines genocide as the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Left out of this definition are "modern" political labels for people: the poor, religious people, the middle class, etc.

The oversight was deliberate. The word "genocide" was coined by a Polish Jew, Raphael Lemkin, who was responding to Winston Churchill's 1941 lament that "we are in the presence of a crime without a name." Lemkin, a champion of human rights who lost 49 relatives in the Holocaust, gave it a name a few years later. But to get the U.N. to recognize genocide as a specific crime, he made compromises.

Pressured by the Soviets, Lemkin supported excluding efforts to murder "political" groups from the U.N.'s 1948 resolution on genocide. Under the more narrow official definition, it's genocide to try to wipe out Roma (formerly known as Gypsies), but it's not necessarily genocide to liquidate, say, people without permanent addresses. You can't slaughter "Catholics," but you can wipe out "religious people" and dodge the genocide charge.

Political scientist Gerard Alexander decries that type of absurdity as "Enlightenment bias." Reviewing Samantha Power's moving 2003 book, "A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide," Alexander observed that this bias leaves the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century - self-described Marxist-Leninists - somewhat off the hook.

In Power's book, the most influential writing on genocide in a generation, she scolds - often justly - the U.S. for not doing more to stop systematized slaughter. But by focusing so narrowly on the U.N.-style definition of genocide, she implicitly upholds a moral hierarchy of evil, which in effect renders mass murder a second-tier crime if it's done in the name of social progress, modernization or other Enlightenment ideals.

This is dangerous thinking; people perceived to be blocking progress - farmers, aristocrats, reactionaries - can be more forgivably slaughtered than ethnic groups because they're allegedly part of the problem, not the solution. After all, you've got to break some eggs to make an omelet.

For many, the Soviets and the Red Chinese elude the genocide charge because Communists were omelet-makers. Ukrainian kulaks, or independent farmers, opposed Stalin's plan for collectivization, so they were murdered for that "greater good."

Today, Mao and Stalin aren't in Hitler's class of evil because Hitler wasn't a "modernizer," he was a racist. Note how the Russians have no problem copping to the charge of mass murder but recoil at suggestions it was racially motivated.

It's a wrongheaded distinction. Murder is murder, whether the motive is bigotry or the pursuit of allegedly enlightened social planning.

It's also a false distinction. Racial genocide is often rationalized as a form of progress by those responsible. Under the Holodomor, Ukrainian culture was systematically erased by the Russian Soviets, who saw it as expendable. No doubt the Sudanese janjaweed in Darfur and the Chinese People's Liberation Army in Tibet believe they are "modernizers," too.

Or consider the ultimate racially motivated genocide, the Holocaust. Gotz Aly and Susanne Heim demonstrate in their brilliant book, "Architects of Annihilation: Auschwitz and the Logic of Destruction," that the Final Solution, particularly in Lemkin's own Poland, was perceived by the young economists overseeing it as a "modernizing project that would transform society."

In Germany, the effort to crush Jewry was intertwined with the effort to nationalize the economy and eliminate small and independent businesses. For German social engineers, the Jews were convenient guinea pigs for their economic experiments. The first test cases were not the Jews but the mentally ill, who were classified as an economic liability - "useless bread-gobblers" - in Germany's 1936 Four-Year Plan of economic modernization.

The climate of anti-Semitism made the Holocaust possible, but so did Enlightenment bias, which holds that almost anything can be justified in the name of progress.

I doubt such distinctions would have been of much comfort to Lemkin's 49 relatives.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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sort of
"It's a wrongheaded distinction. Murder is murder, whether the motive is bigotry or the pursuit of allegedly enlightened social planning."

the absurdity of the concept is actually broader than that because it is equally wrong to murder the same number of people entirely at random (a school-shooting on a very large scale) yet that, too, counts for nothing. for some reason the specifics of the motivation carry a lot of weight with the definition while the actual number of victims carries none (note that according to the UN definition nobody actually needs to die for genocide to happen - it is the intent that counts). theoretically speaking, planning to kill one japanese because he is a japanese is a genocide but intentionally firing a nuclear missile to kill 10 million random people for no other reason but to have fun is not.

so it is a pretty counterproductive yet enormously powerful concept.

closer to home
What about the killing of millions of pre-born people (regardless of their ethnic background)?

Mr. Goldberg says, 'The first test cases were not the Jews but the mentally ill, who were classified as an economic liability - "useless bread-gobblers" - in Germany's 1936 Four-Year Plan of economic modernization.'

Apollo
Go shill on another blog. You are quite annoying!

A rose by any other name!
A rose by any other name is still a rose. When people take to parsing and playing wordm games you know something is up their sleeve. This is the very kind of "nuance" the John Kerry supporters claimed W didn't have.

Boutte and aspacia
For once I agree with you, Boutte....

On this issue, we can put aside philosophical differences and agree.

I have seen ApolloSpeaks on many threads now, and I, as you do, wish he would stop hitting us with his announcement about "Reagan's providential disease."

He has every right to do so, of course, freedom of speech and all that, but it is "quite annoying," as apsacia posted, and I wish he would desist.

I actually read his blog, and now my brain hurts.

I don't recommend it to anyone, unless you love conspiracy theory c**p of the wildest and nuttiest nature.

Excellent!
I loved your analysis on this.

The article shows the absurdity of so called "hate" crimes. Can you imagine having a loved one murdered, and yet the perpetrator not getting as much of a sentence as someone who murdered because of race? How would you feel knowing your loved one’s death was not as important because he or she was killed because of sexual assault or burglary and not skin color?

Trying to categorize murder diminishes the horror of taking life. It is really saying murder is bad, but it’s not as bad as bigotry. Think about the implications here. Are we looking at a future where using racial slurs could result in a lifetime prison sentence?

Reminds me of walter duranty episode
Many on the left who were active in the communist movement in the United States have never owned up to their complicity in the Stalin genocide of the Ukrainians in the 1930s.

We all know of the unconscionable reporting by "New York Times" reporter, Walter Duranty, who was stationed in Moscow during the years of Stalin's starvation and murder of the Ukrainians.

Duranty was fond of Stalin and his agrarian "reforms", and his dispatches back to the newspaper ignored the starvation and murder by Stalin. He was aware of it. He simply did not report it. He or his newspaper received a Pulitzer Prize for his general reporting of that era. And that is a crime. That prize ought to be revoked.

Even leftist Hollywood, so willing to make movies about the evils of the Nazis, made very few(if any)movies recounting Stalin's atrocities toward the Ukrainians and others, and relatively few about the evils of communism.

Certainly Stalin's regime was in the same league as Hitler's, from the standpoint of amount of lives lost.




Convenience of the Living
Thank you Jonah! I've been looking for a lever by which to deal effectively with Samantha Powers's America-chiding theses.

Evil DOES come in degrees, and we DO, as a society, have to make legal distinctions between degrees of premeditation, motivation and cruelty in determining penalties for murders, for example. But the strength of Jonah's thought here is that ethnicity should not be the only thing we look at when we notice that a "people" are being killed IN THE SERVICE OF THE STATE. That's the REAL distinction here and the real comparison between Stalin and Hitler: it is equally morally reprehensible and shocking that any STATE would decide FOR its own citizens/residents that they should die for the convenience of the living.

I, for one, am also willing to apply the same judgement against individuals who kill for the convenience of the living--good call greenhorn

not going to tell you
Hey dude, if Goldberg writes garbage, why is he getting paid and you're just a jealous hack who has to write for free?

Breaking Eggs
A lot of 'intellectual' people believe it is okay to break eggs to achieve some goal - as long as the eggs belong to someone else.

It has always been apoint of amazement .
to me, how the Jews embrace Father Roosevelt and all the other Jew haters in the democrat party. Could it be that secular Judaism is a celebrant of Marxism?
Roosevelt had the St. Louis turned away. P-38 photo plains took aerial pictures of the death camps. Those in the know were aware all along. The rails leading to the death camps were never bombed. The common thought was to keep the Germans distracted with their preoccupation with murdering Jews and not allowing them to field those forces.
An awareness of history turns ones stomach.

not going to tell you
if you try you might have something interesting to say. Goldberg's book should be read by more people and the TV should be turned off.

Not Going To Tell You
The tie back is actually fascism and its grandfather 19th century progressivism. Collectivism, a disdain for Constitutional Democracy, a yearning for a "politics of meaning", a highly regulated economy which uses the tax code to distribute wealth and create justice, eugenics, enviormentalism, corporatism, disdain for individual and enumerated political rights (Press, Religion, Search and Seizures) and a highly centralized and regulated educational system all have thier sources in late 19th century progressive thought.

Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Wilson, Mussolini, Lennin, and Hitler made have came from different poltical traditions, nationalities, and certainly different temperments and moral up bringings, but thier political thought stems from the same germ. The idea that the source and summit of life and happiness lies with either politics or the goverment, and that individual liberty is actually immoral has been around for a long time and always had a home with the Democrats. But don't worry, the GOP is fast catching up.

Goldberg
"The climate of anti-Semitism made the Holocaust possible, but so did Enlightenment bias, which holds that almost anything can be justified in the name of progress."

This guy is the stupidest of the stupid. Anti-Semitism is as old as the hills and is taking new turns. The thing that made the Holocaust the worst ever,wasn't anything to do with "enlightenment bias." What a sad thing for this man to lower himself to pathetic pandering to advance his bizarre theories.

not quite right
This is not an unreasonable column, but it is wrongheaded. The crime without a name was not mass-murder, which already had a name. That name was mass-murder. There is no particular need for a new term to capture that. What was new was this idea of trying to wipe out a particular group of people based on nothing but ethnicity. There is something particularly stomach churning in that. And that was different enough to merit a name to capture it.

Of course people are free to disagree that the separating out of people on ethnic grounds for mass murder is worse than other cases of mass murder. But that is to say that people are free to disagree that genocide is a worse variant of mass murder than other types. But one does not make that point by changing the definition of genocide so that it simply means mass-murder, or even a larger scale of mass-murder than simply mass-murder.

Trying to win arguments by changing well established defintions tends to obscure debate rather than advance it.

Is Taft daft?
The current Western world view is postmodern because of the failure of science to create heaven on earth. The modern world view held that man could only get better and better; Darwinian evolution predestined progress. "Man is the measure of all things." There were other ideas besides the Holocaust that were justified in the name of progress (the end justifies the means), e.g. Stalin's purges and eugenics. The postmodern view is more realistic and pessimistic.

Jonah out to lunch on this one
This is quite disagreeable. As he no doubt should know after just publishing a book (Liberal Fascism) on the topic, the left gets away with murder just by hijacking the English language. If we let genocide simply mean mass murder of any group, then racial animus may be ascribed to people who had none, which over time can cause unnecessary resentment.

This is not to say that true genocide, the murder of people primarily for their racial or sub-racial classification, is necessarily more immoral than other motives for murder. But the term itself should be merely descriptive of the crime, not judgemental of it. Language should not be made to conform to moral interpretation, otherwise we simply end up with miscommunication as we mean things that others do not hear. The term regicide is not meant to evoke sympathy for the perpetrator because kings are to many people antagonizers; it is simply meant to indicate that the crime involved the intentional death of a royal monarch at the hands of someone with a political motive. The whole point of the term genocide is that the common racial or ethnic genes of the victims provide the motive for the crime. If we strip the term of this specificity, it becomes banal and less informative. Such dilution of meaning has in recent years occurred with the terms fascism and fascist, which now vaguely means subjectively oppressive political actors or policies, instead of a likeness to the corporatist and syndicalist socialism of interwar Italy. And that is something that has made Goldberg himself cry bloody murder.


Best
This is the best summary I have seen of the Genocide term.

The Chinese communists had a campaign to liquidate (or murder) every peasant owning more than a hectare of land (about 2.7 acres). They also murdered the aristocracy in Tibet, by humiliating the victims first, and trying to stir up envious resentment against them, and then condemning them in public meetings where anyone speaking in defense of the victims, or not pretending enthusiasm, would be themselves in danger as "reactionaries."

In North Korea, the communists systematically murdered anyone in a town or village who was educated, owned land, or was religious. The victims were frequently killed by having nails diven into the back of the head, to save ammunition. In cases were people were shot, the bodies could be claimed by relatives only by paying for the cartridges used in the execution.

Churchill should have thought a bit more before he spoke, because there certainly were already words for what we call the Holocaust. Murder is murder, no matter what the scale. The best thing is to call that act what it is. Mass murder is excused often by euphemisms, but this should not fool us.

Following Goldberg's logic
Murder is murder, whether the motive is bigotry or the pursuit of allegedly enlightened social planning.

We should get rid of all euphemisms concerning murder and call it what it is.

Genocide has no meaning, murder.

The holocaust has no meaning, murder. Oops.

It would appear that Genocide does have meaning, depending on your point of view.

and: 1st degree Murder
2nd degree Murder
Manslaughter
voluntary
involuntary

all parsing homicide. All having different meanings. As do Genocide and Mass Murder.

Taft
"This guy is the stupidest of the stupid. Anti-Semitism is as old as the hills and is taking new turns"

And antisemitism seems to have survived and even flourishes on the Left. You seem to be confused between mass political murder and the Shoah. The first violent Revolution occured in France. Within a few years, the revolutionists began to systematically murder anyone who didn't toe the ideological line. Within a decade, the revolutionary fevor turned inward to nationalism, led of course by Napolean.

The left has always had a soft spot for violence, especially political violence. It wasn't long before thier tolerance was being taught in many European salons and univserities. Anti-semitism flourished on the Left because eventually progressivsm turns to what was once dubbed fascism. Fascism, which preaches corporatism and "community", could never tolerate a "chosen people", that is a race of people who for 2000 years been been outsiders. The thirst for political violence and the longing for a "politics of meaning" eventually led to the most hideous form of progressivism - the Nazis.

Even today, the Left honors Castro and Chavez -who made thier marks through violence and the threat of violence.

What's wrong "not going to tell you"
I can't believe it. notgoingtotellyou, the fabulous intellect and infamous Goldberg stalker, seems fairly quiet today. Come on now, fire up that 3rd pack a Marlboros, get another cup-O Starbucks "whateverthehellitistheysell" and re-read Mr. Goldberg's column...... surely you just missed something. I know you can do better than "Looking for the subtle tie-back to American liberals equaling communists. I'm sure it's in here somewhere." We're all eagerly awaiting your usual acidic analysis. I know you can do much better.

but Genocide is not Murder
Paul said, "Murder is murder, no matter what the scale." But what is murder?

My 1964 Concise Oxford Dictionary defines MURDER as "unlawful killing of human being with malice aforethought." But the Chinese and North Korean communist governments that killed so many people did not do so unlawfully; they had probably made up their own law, which the unfortunate victims had violated.

Neither was Hitler's genocide a mass murder. He did not kill Jews unlawfully.

Well if...
Their mothers don't want them then it's not murder anymore! It's magic!

American liberals = communists
Stalin, Mao, and other communists killed millions of their own countrymen.

American liberals justify the killing of millions of their own countrymen. (At least I think so. The "right to abortion" is a liberal idea, isn't it?)

That's not equality, but it is a similarity.

For the Common Good
I'm reading Jonah Goldberg's book "Liberal Fascism." It does not surprise me that throughout modern history, from The Terror (French Revolution) to the Holdomor to the Killing Fields to present-day Tibet, "progressive" ideas lead to mass-murder. Identity politics elevates the group above the individual. It's wrong.

Beware of social engineers who justify actions "for the common good."

Genocide
Ohmagawd! Am I to believe, then, that the United Nations has no interest in protecting and encouraging such bizarre paradigms as Freedom and ... ?

Evil is recognizable
What is in a name? Let's parse the phraseology some more. Is mass-murder a euphemism for genocide? Is Ethnic-cleansing a euphemism for the same?

Get real folks, evil is easily recognizable. Just because it is couched in euphemistic terms or laid at the door of 'the state' it doesn't change the outcome. But, the UN and others love to play with words. All polititians are alike in that regard.




See my blog
new parody based on the Beatles' Revolution.

secret cigaret holocaust = genocide?
A published estimate by Solzhenitzyn for Stalinist Soviet total murder was 66,000,000. Similar amount attributed to Mao ze-dong. Meanwhile, the World Health Organization (February 7, 2008) estimates yearly death toll from addictive hot-burning overdose nicotine cigarets, used as advertised for $bils./year by the companies, at 5.4 million and rising, and at over 100,000,000 human deaths in the last century.

(Not that Communists are innocent. Uncle Joe's tobacco use was well publicized and illustrated and part of his personality cult image.)

Is a particular ethnic or educational group singled out? I have seen statistics (somebody fix up the citations): holders of graduate degrees are less than 10% addicted to cigarets, persons who didn't graduate from high school over 30%. (It seems colleges do a good job of educating youngsters to join a social class which takes care of itself?)

"Sir, there is a Cancer upon the Conservative Movement-- the Cancer of Tobaccolosis!" Somebody should be embarrassed that the Republican Party and its candidates regularly get at least twice as much bribe money from Big Tobackgo as do the Democrats.

secret cigaret holocaust = genocide?
I dont see your comparison here....Genocide has nothing to do with how a person chooses to live, whether it be over eating, not exercising, drinking, sky diving, driving race cars, smoking, using drugs, etc etc.. Genocide is just random killing of a group based on there nationality,race, sex, creed,economic status. These people have no choice. People that smoke or do anything else that is dangerous or unhealthy do. So your off base with this one!!

Russian: "gladomor" or "golodomor"
Let me try again. My previous attempt at posting did not work. Sorry in advance if that produces double or triple posts!
Part I.
I am usually a big fan of Mr. Goldberg for the simple reason that he is unquestionably knowledgeable when he speaks of American issues or of Jews and antisemitism. Unfortunately, his familiarity with the subject (i.e. Soviet history) is not evident in this latest column.
It would probably take too long, and it would be too boring for other readers to explain the situation in the USSR in the 20-s, and it would seem petty to explain that the Russian word "holod" means "cold", while "golod = glad" means "hunger", because both apply equally to the situation, but I suspect its the latter that is being implied. So I will not take that path.

Russian: "gladomor"/"golodomor" - 2
I will only say that, even though it is probably true that the majority of victims of the so-called "Holodomor" were ethnic Ukrainians, the operation was not intended against Ukrainians as a group (no "final solution" in the works...) The purpose was, rather, to cardinally change the agricalture (establishment of "kolhoz"), however wrongheaded that was!
I am not trying to defend the Soviets: communism is guilty of many crimes as it is. And I don't dispute that "Holodomor" was a crime!
And it brings me to my second point: I hope I am mistaken, but I suspect that this particular crime is brought up by the contemporary sovereign government of Ukraine in order to demand reparations. This situations reminds me of the demand for reparations by a certain group in the US.
Ukraine of our days acts as if at the time (1920's) it was not part of the USSR, and as if its own soviet socialist government did not actively participated in the crime. This is what makes me especially mad about this "Holodomor" issue!
In addition, I completely agree with the posters, who observe that giving fancy names to the MURDER, like "hate crime" or "genocide", does not make the "murder" any more, nor any less. I guess, it's a sheer number of victims that gets us every time, be it Nazism or Communism.

test
test

Samantha Powers? If I am not mistaken
wasn't she an Obama advisor? If she is, it does not surprise me that she is anti-American.

American Progressivism
Goldberg writes 'The first test cases were not the Jews but the mentally ill, who were classified as an economic liability - "useless bread-gobblers"

It is this attitude that the left touts Abortion...er uh "Freedom of Choice". There have been something on the order of 45 million legal abortions in the US since 1973. Folks, we are doing the same thing, just before the little guys get to stand up and speak out about it themselves. After all, we would not want to punish our young mothers with a baby would we. That thing will just be an economic burden to us as a society, right? The left is so concerned about the rights of everything from Owls, to trees, but when it comes to enabling a certain life-style that THEY want, KILL the little money grubbing squids before they can make a change in my life.

Wake up people, our current abortion rates and policies and "Progresseive" way of thinkg run parallel with the Holocaust or any type of Mass Murder in history. In every case these decisions are alowd in the name of the greater good of the country. We must do what we can to stop this insanity.

I know most "Freedom of Choice" advocates say something like this, "I don't believe in abortion myself, I just don't think I have the right to tell somebody they can't have one."

Shame on you who say this. The blood of 45 Million babies are on your hands as if you were standing by holding the doctor's overcoat.

Missing the point
I think some of the posters are missing the author's point. Mass murder is not a crime, at least in the eye of the U.N., separate from murder. You murder 1 person, you're guilty of murder, you murder a million people, with the intent of eliminating a particular category of people (not including ethnic, racial, or religious), you're guilty of (multiple) murder(s). You murder a million people with the intent of eliminating a particular ethnic, racial, or religious group, you're guilty of murder AND genocide. Genocide is considered an International Crime by the U.N.. Why should the U.N. only condemn mass murder when it's motivated by ethnicity, race, or religion? Isn't what the Nazi did to the mentally retarded as heinous as what it did to the Jews? Isn't the horror of what the Soviet Union did to the farmers (in Ukraine) on the same level as genocide?

Re: shelfdesigner
The problem with your argument is that people aren't forced to start smoking. It's an activity that's chosen. Yes it's a bad choice but it's still not anybody's fault but the person lighting up the cigarette. In a genocide or mass murder the victims are held against their will and butchered. While it's true that a cancer victim is just as dead there is are two material differences the first I've already stated and the second is that not everybody who smokes will get cancer. That's the problem with a radical lunatic stance is it falls apart when logic is applied to the position.

JPK
Something like 80% of Jews in America are Democrats. It makes no sense to say that anti-semitism is thriving on the Left. The biggest criminals in the history of anti-semitism are the right wing Nazis and KKK.

Why Genocide is different
Let's look at analogy. You are driving home and you hear about a traffic accident with 5 fatalities. If you are like most people you will think about the families of those 5 people and imagine their sense of loss.

Then you hear that all 5 people were in one family. Most people don't think, "Well, 5 people are 5 people." No, most people will consider this to be a bigger tragedy because the loss of one's entire family is almost unimaginable.

In genocide, entire families are destroyed. Entire bloodlines are eliminated. This isn't to make light of mass murder, it is just that there is an element to genocide that set it apart and requires it to be dealt with differently.

Taft
"The biggest criminals in the history of anti-semitism are the right wing Nazis and KKK."

The Nazis were National Socialists. To label them as "right wing" in an attempt to somehow equate them with the Right in American politics is inaccurate. Some referred to the hard-line Communists in the Soviet Union as "right wing" as well, and obviously they had no resemblence to the American Right either.

The KKK were (and are) almost exclusively Democrats.

JJBiener
Here is what a professor has to say on the end of the Weimar Republic.

Mr. Weitz is Distinguished McKnight University Professor of History at the University of Minnesota and author of Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy (Princeton, 2007).


".. the Weimar Republic ended and the Third Reich began. Weimar did not collapse. It was deliberately murdered by a coalition of establishment conservatives and the extreme right. High government officials, bankers and factory owners, pastors and priests, army officers, old-line aristocratic landowners, some well-placed intellectuals -- those were the establishment conservatives. They were well-situated in powerful institutions like the state bureaucracy, the church hierarchies, big business, and universities, and they disposed of great resources. Yet they whined incessantly because the democracy had limited (though certainly not destroyed) their powers in the revolution that followed World War I and established the Republic. They were anti-democratic, anti-socialist, and anti-Semitic, if less rabidly so than Adolf Hitler and his cronies."

JJBiener
What makes you say kkk are democrats? Its not much, but for one thing, David Duke is Republican I believe.

Taft
Taft-

You know, I think I'll take F. A. Hayek's first person observation of the rise of the Third Reich, and its ideological forbears, than Mr. Weitz's obviously left-leaning view of history. ESPECIALLY in his claim that those who pushed the rise of Hitler and the National Socialists were part of the "church hierarchy." That is nonsense - Hitler had a well-known hatred of Christianity. What followed WWI was NOT DEMOCRACY (or any version of it, since a democracy has never, actually, existed, not even here, thank God). It was heavily Marxist - which was one of the reasons it was so easy for the National Socialists to come to power. They weren't offering anything radically different, economically. They just didn't want to have swear fealty to Moscow, which is why, as Goldberg shows in his latest book, that Stalin used the vast spy networks across the world, and the fellow-travelers ("useless idiots"), to label anyone who didn't toe the Moscow line as "right-wing." And they used racism to scapegoat a self-isolated people (due to cultural realities) in order to get a majority to coalesce around a party. Oh, and Byrd is a Democrat. Between Byrd and Duke, who has gotten the most support from his respective party?

the sinner,

Charles

It's a no-brainer
for anybody who is intellectually honest, that is. The Russian parliament are all in the tank for Putin. I suppose there's a mens rea distinction for genocide, in that the offender intends to destroy an entire race, but why make that distinction when the evil is no worse than intending to destroy any other group?

Great article as one would
expect from Jonah. I am still reading his "Libetal Fascism" which is a must read by everybody !

Charles the Hammer
I agree, hitler was veimently anti-christian and the Christians became a great pain in the neck for him. Hitler, however, never let on that he was so anti-christian and in hes Mein kompf said things that made one think he was Christian, (can't remember what, but I remember a guy posting it once.) It is true though, the industrialists and Conservatives supported Hitler, they feared communism to be sure. Farben even developed the gas chambers and oil companies tried to carry on as usual, Prescott Bush could say something about that.

Taft
Please stay away from the Bush family/Nazi conspiracy theories. They're ridiculous. The "industrialists" that supported Hitler thought they could manipulate him, despite his, and the Nazi's, very publicly stated class-warfare economic positions. One of the biggest arguments the Nazis used against the Communists/Socialists was that the Nazis were the *real* working class. Quite honestly, they, in face, WERE. The Reds in the Weimar "Republic" were very much upper-middle and upper class individuals of great wealth. The term "conservative" is tricky, here, especially given its history on the Continent versus the modern, American definition. If we define the modern conservative in America as one who believes in smaller government, strong national defense, and capitalism, then those who supported Hitler were most definitely NOT conservatives.

Even the industrialists understood that the federal government would control the economy. It was very much about command/control economy. They simply hoped that they would be picked the winners by the state if they supported Hitler. Same thing happened in the Soviet Union. There are always winners and losers in any economy - the difference is that in a command/control economy the state chooses the winners and loses, whereas in capitalism it is the market that dictates these outcomes.

the sinner,

Charles

In addition
Has the Russian government done anything about the genocide committed against the Orthodox Christians under the Soviet Union? That massive attempt to wipe out all of those who followed Orthodoxy, the large-scale torture and execution of the clergy of the Church, the destruction of Church buildings, etc.? Under even the UN definition, this is genocide.

the sinner,

Charles

Goldberg
That's very interesting, you actually REMOVED my comment from about 8:35 AM 4/9. I didn't think you were that big of a coward - wow!

I've even got people like Ron wondering where it is and others responding to my comment, but it's not there. Strange or LAME?

I guess your fear of communism has brought you full circle to be your own little thought policeman.

Are you going to put it back or should I write it again?

Charles the Hammer
Your post is thought provoking and shows you know a lot..good job. I still think though, maybe your looking at the nazis in a logical way to support Goldbergs liberal-facism nonsence. The facts may not add up to what yu think though. Nazi and communists werre the same in one very important way, they believed in total controll of humans. Neither is good and something thats antipithay to Americansim. Sorry this post is sloppy, but I'm under great pressure. My son wants on, dang him!

I think it's pretty clear
the UN can be bought. You don't hear too much from the left about the millions murdered by Lenin and Stalin. Numbers much greater than the holocaust. Good article. Good discussion.

Bleeding Heart
Lay off the weed - I have no idea what you're talking about

Genocide
It depends on which side you are talking about. When Hitler was killing in mass the Jewish people of Europe it was Genocide, when the President of Iran says that he will kill all the Jewish people he can lay his hands on I guess the UN will see it as social process. Kind of like when the the war in the Balkens occur and those who killed Serbs were doing it for the good of the people, while if the Serbs defended themselves they were seen as Genocidial killers.
It all depends on who writes history.

Taft
Nazis and Communists were a lot alike in more ways than just one. I do believe, in fact, that liberalism and fascism do have a direct relationship. I think Goldberg's book does an amazing job connecting, through historical sources, the two. However, I would go much farther than Mr. Goldberg, and believe that his analysis lacks a very central, important factor. I think that the short book "The Myth of Democracy" by Tage Lindbom, and the essay "Nihilism: The Root of the Modern Revolution" by Father Seraphim Rose are much more accurate in the larger, grand-scale explanation of the connection.

the sinner,

Charles

charles
How does it feel to have your mind manipulated by a mediocre author like goldberg? What a sucker - I've got a nice piece of land in central Florida for you.

Re: "holod" vs. "golod"
Quote:
"Russian: "gladomor" or "golodomor"...
and it would seem petty to explain that the Russian word "holod" means "cold", while "golod = glad" means "hunger", because both apply equally to the situation, but I suspect its the latter that is being implied. So I will not take that path."

-----
I had to respond to this, Duimovochka, even though you state "it would seem petty to explain". Mr. Goldberg is writing about a Ukrainian issue, and while 'golod' *does* mean 'hunger' in Russian, in *Ukrainian* the term for 'hunger' is *'holod'*. Thus the term 'Holodomor'.
(Anyone wanting a further clarification of the whole 'g' vs. 'h' issue, feel free to ask me.)

Only Ukrainians suffered from Stalinism?
Jonah Goldberg interprets the Russian refusal to ethnicize Stalin's hunger genocide "Translation: We didn't kill millions of farmers because they were Ukrainians; we killed millions of Ukrainians because they were farmers."

How about this other translation of modern Ukrainian nationalistic discourse: "millions who were killed were Ukrainian; others don't count".
The people who died in the Ukraine were not killed only because they were Ukrainian. How can we be so sure that there were no Northern Russians, Jews, people of mixed origins or other minorities living in the areas of organized famine when they were caught up in this massive extermination.
Conveniently gone are other factors which explain why the Ukraine as a geographic area (and not an ethnic zone) was targetted : the Ukraine was a breeding ground of anti-Communism, the geographic base of the White Army of Denikin and Wrangell (plus nationalistic Ukrainian armed forces) until 1919. The Ukraine's population, whether separatist or feeling strong attachement to the old Russian Empire (like my family members Ukrainians and others, who died there) passively resisted longer than anywhere against the Communist régime, remained strongly attached (propbably stronger that elswhere in the USSR) to the quasi-outlawed Orthodox Church (a spirit of resistance devellopped by persecution experienced for centuries under Polish Catholic occupation and not rule by Orthodox Russia -- an episode conveninetly forgotten by many "Ukrainian" "nationalists").
Not only is there something insulting in the instrumentalization of our the dead by contemporary nationalists whose careers began as leaders of a Communist régime that had perpetrated the atrocities.


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