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Saturday, March 29, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Same Old Spiel about a 'New' New Deal
by Jonah Goldberg
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The New Deal is 75 years young this month.

A host of commentators have invoked the current mortgage credit crisis as justification for a sweeping intrusion of the government into the economy, not just into the credit markets. American Prospect editor Harold Myerson says, "Bring on the new New Deal."

For all this talk of newness, you might be surprised at how old the idea is. Liberals were calling for a "new New Deal" when the first New Deal was barely out of diapers. That's one reason FDR launched a "second New Deal" from 1935-1937. In 1944, he attempted to jump-start a third New Deal with his "second Bill of Rights."

Let's set aside Harry Truman's "Fair Deal," JFK's "New Frontier," LBJ's "Great Society" and Bill Clinton's "New Covenant." I'm sure Jimmy Carter had something like this, too; I just try to avoid paying any attention to the man.

Even the New Deal wasn't as new as many claimed (as I argue in my book, "Liberal Fascism"). FDR himself sold the New Deal as a continuation of the war socialism of the Wilson administration, in which FDR had served. For example, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the signature public-works project of the New Deal, had its roots in a World War I power project. (As FDR explained when he formally asked Congress to create the thing, "This power development of war days leads logically to national planning.")

Since George W. Bush was elected, liberals have been calling for new New Deals more frequently than my daughter asks "are we there yet?" whenever we're in the car. After 9/11, Sen. Charles Schumer argued that the terrorist attack proved the need for a new New Deal, and that "the president can either lead the charge or be run over by it." After Hurricane Katrina, left-wing journalist William Greider spoke for many when he said that the natural disaster required a "new New Deal." Last January, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley said the looming recession was all the excuse government needed. The head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Rahm Emmanuel, wrote last January that we need "a New Deal for the New Economy" that provides everything from universal health care to sweeping job training, in response to globalization.

Now it's the financial crisis that requires a you-know-what.

It's like liberals are playing a game of "Jeopardy" where the response to every question is, "What is a new New Deal?"

Still, it's worth noting for the record that the New Deal didn't really do what most of these people think it did. It didn't, for example, end the Great Depression. It prolonged it - by years. It didn't really crack down on big business - it gave big business unprecedented power to regulate itself, to the detriment of small businessmen.

But when you point out these facts, the usual response is, "So what?"

Well, if you're going to proclaim that what we need is a new New Deal when you're conceding that the New Deal didn't work, you've got a problem on your hands.

But the problems go deeper than that. Some say what they love about the New Deal was its "bold, persistent experimentation," in FDR's famous words.

"We need our leaders to recapture the urgency of the New Deal era, an enthusiasm for experimentation that attempts to address Americans' core challenges and not just win elections," writes Andrea Batista Schlesinger in the April 7 issue of The Nation.

Others, like Emanuel, suggest that "planning" was the essence of the New Deal. But planning and experimentation are, in fact, opposites. You don't "experiment" when performing an appendectomy or when building a house; you follow a plan.

More important, these New Deal nostalgists don't like experiments in the first place. It's all one-way, about finding new ways to expand government, not new ways to solve problems. Experiments like school vouchers or social security privatization: These are completely taboo to the same people clamoring for a new New Deal.

Others will tell you that what was great about the New Deal was its spirit of "hope" and "unity" - two words we hear a lot these days. But hope for what? Unity about what?

The answer is obvious. The hope for power that comes with unity. "Experimentation" is really just a dishonest word for allowing the would-be Brain Trusters to do whatever they want. And if it fails, well, that's no reason to take away their licenses, because they warned us they were "experimenting."

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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stay the course then
I realize that many people are buying your book(s) and reading your publications - congratulations. Lots of people buy illegal narcotics and alcohol to help them handle the realities of our world.

Here's a good one: "It's all one-way, about finding new ways to expand government, not new ways to solve problems." Feel the burn as it runs down your throat, knowing it's a lie, but welcoming its soothing simplicity.

I'm sorry sir. You are simply a liar, bent on taking advantage of people in need of reassurance and someone/thing to believe in without having to think about it.

I'd ask you how you sleep, but I'm sure you have no conscience, based on your published work.

It worked then, its working now
Jonah writes:
A host of commentators have invoked the current mortgage credit crisis as justification for a sweeping intrusion of the government into the economy, not just into the credit markets. American Prospect editor Harold Myerson says, "Bring on the new New Deal
--------

The Bankers of the Federal Reserve Corporation caused the Great Depression on purpose.
To create the atmosphere, for their man FDR to bring the bankers into full authority over the nations monetary system, as it is today.

And are sacuing the presnt financial problems on purpose too, to bring further power to government, see how it works?

They ( the bankers)also financed the Russian Revolution, and Rockefeller himself sent Leon Trotsky with 300 communists to Moscow to aide Lenin's overthrow of the Russian Government.

They also are financing the present overthrow of America to bring the world under their complete control, and influence into America of the UN.
George W Bush is their man, well so is Hilliary and Obama and McCain.
We citizens do not have a man running, the bankers have 3.


Working in partnership with the people they have paid for to gain some high office in the land as it is today with out right traitors.
Who are good little Marxists.

See, the bankers seen Marxism as the best plan to get all power incorporated and under their control, seeing as how they hold all the gold and the paper we use for money, called Federal Reserve Notes.

I can verify every thing I am saying.


Mr.Goldberg
Your columns and thought patterns are very refreshing and reinforcing despite what the demented types like 'not going' have to say.

Some of the so called conservative media talking faces, such as Fox's insHannity and O'Really are actually unprincipled and noisy hype-sters. The former has been recently shown to be a bigot, a plagiarizer and a prevaricator (see http://www.debbieschlussel.com) and the latter is a ubiquitous, self promoting, sanctimonious media loudmouth.

I was fearful that by your going to the leftist LA Times, that it would co-opt your brain in a simmilar manner. I am pleased to say that, IMHO, your have retained your intellectual honesty and integrity. In lending a bit of legitimacy to that propaganda rag, while perhaps co-opting a few of their employees' brains, I see you just as John Leo was to US News, which is surely a compliment.

Thanks for the book: Liberal Fascism.

The New, New, Brand Spanking New Deal
Mr. Goldberg, It's pretty obvious the LLW's or loony left wingers have always been enthralled in the "planning and experimentation" phases of the "New, New Deal", when you and I and everybody and his conservative brother know's the "Real Deal" is in the financing-paying for all this experimentation and planning.
I'm all for social security privitization as long as we keep Bear Sterns out of it, and for school vouchers we need to put in check or disband the teacher's union their usefullness has come and gone.
As for the "hope and unity" thingy, I just hope we unite and NOT bailout every swinging dick investment house who racked up a ton of red ink in this foreclosure disaster.
If these suckers want to show a profit let their top executives forgo the massive christmas bonuses from a year ago and cut a deal with the outgoing CEO's to defer there huge bailout or walkaway salary payments like they do for atheletes.
Investment house CEO's and atheletes they're all the same, like Dennis Rodman said they're in the entertainment business, and the way some of these investment house CEO's ran their business was just pure entertainment.

''Liberals'' prey upon crisis...
--
...but that's primarily because historically and politically illiterate conservatives let them get away with it. Says Mr. Goldberg:

"Since George W. Bush was elected, liberals have been calling for new New Deals more frequently than my daughter asks 'are we there yet?' whenever we're in the car."


Well, what the hell *ELSE* do they have to whine about?

The old "social injustice" wheeze of the '60s dried out and blew away decades ago; we've all had ample opportunity to see what "Liberal" social engineering gets us, especially in welfare programs and the government indoctrination centers that masquerade as public schools.

They haven't got a damned thing to offer except violent social, economic, and political disruption - the same kinds of socialist dirigisme that made the 20th Century the bloodiest and most wasteful hundred years in human history.

"Liberals" dimly understand that the socialist stupidities they advocate are about as desirable to honest, sensible people as having the planet hit with another "dinosaur killer" asteroid.

So they seek to play up "emergencies" as justification.

And modern conservatives (not to mention "yellow dog" Republicans, who are *NOT* conservatives by any stretch of the imagination) are so light in the intellectual loafers that most of 'em are willing to let the "Liberals" get away with it.

Tsk.


----
"[T]he whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary."

-- H.L. Mencken

"Unity"
The "unity" the statists desire is the coerced unity of a team of oxen under one whip. True unity is voluntary, not coerced.

Talent Scout...
...Great parody,man!!! Having been born and raised on the East Coast,I love sarcasm, and can appreciate it in others!

SJ Doc
"The whole purpose of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed": Yes, SJ, you got it right. Just look at these examples:

"Weapons of mass destruction...yellowcake in Africa...connection between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaeda..." (George W Bush)

"Follow us home...mushroom cloud..." (Condoleeza Rice)

"Pass the Patriot Act immediately because anthrax has been found in the Capitol mailroom..." (Bush II administration)

"Vote for John Kerry and we will be attacked again... (Dick Cheney)

To not going to tell you
Ask him how his Mama is.

not going to tell you
So, you've read the book by Jonah, Liberal Fascism?

lilly
One can only imagine that you've come late to the game and you are not a good researcher of facts.

Just because the "news" tells you something doesn't make it true. It's a good springboard though, to conduct your own research and think for yourself.

But if bumper sticker mentality encouraged by the sound-bite citizen is your dujor then apparently you're indulging and enjoying while continuing to be ignorant.

You have that freedom, clearly you're enjoying it.

talent scout
So, verify. I don't believe a thing you said, assuming you are serious.

In the mental health field
we often talk about how each generation seems to need to learn its own lessons whether about drugs, sex, behavior. It seems to be true in politics. Socialism hasn't worked at earlier times, but the "new" socialism has to be tried and rejected.

Is 'Unity' an absolute virtue ?
Extolling "unity" as a virtue overlooks how it is achieved. Suppressing contrary opinion does the job, and so does looking for areas of agreement among different opinions.

The collateral consequences of the two paths to 'Unity' are significant, and very different. Those demanding immediate results are tempted by the totalitarian model.

goldberg
You can come up with all the flowery, evasive pseudo-intelligent terms, phrases and half backed thinking you want. You're still a liar, but your smart enough to couch what you say in such unrealistic contexts, that you could say anything and still rightfully claim you're telling the truth. The fact is, you are deceiving people into thinking that the simple generalities you try to portray American politics in are factual - "liberal fascism" is a great example. This meaningless term sounds great to platitude-hungry conservatives, but turns to dust under clear rational/factual analysis.

Your response seems loaded with the same thinking. I still say you are a liar because I think you are smart enough to know better yet you're making a fortune off of other people's ignorance - I guess that's where we are these days.


Our potted lilly hasn't read...
--
...much of Mencken, has she?

Else she wouldn't be trying to get a rise out of me by quoting from the current herd of RINOs.

Tsk.



---------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

-- H.L. Mencken

What you never hear
The current money crisis was initiated by Carter, exacerbated by Clinton and the doofus, Greenspan, who FORCED lenders to extend loans to high risk borrowers - people who aren't responsible enough to own a dog, much less buy a home. Now, very predictably, they're defaulting at record rates and SOMEONE BESIDES THEM has to be blamed. Typical non-linear thinking, touchy feely, victocrat, lib stupidity.

Yet another glaring example of how the law of unintended consequences can be ignored and the blame shifted to a faceless entity, like Bear Stearns or Halliburton...

LLW's (thanks, BigBelly) always demand we "tax the rich" or the corporations, while NEVER acknowledging that people with money or successful businesses DON'T PAY TAXES! They roll the additional costs imposed by stupid regulation and confiscatory taxes into their product and they rest of us pay through the nose.

How they get away with trotting out this old canard, over and over again is a huge indictment of public education, among scores of other examples, plain as the nose on their faces - oh wait, I forget. They don't see their noses, since they're looking past it, down at us plebes, convinced they're so-ooo superior, in intellect and good intentions.

And they accuse Bush and his crew of excess hubris. Arrogant, willfully ignorant, self-righteous, hateful, destructive to traditional values and traditions - yup, that's the modern dhimmicrat party.

Still waiting...
for verification of all that paranoid blarney from talent scout;

and the "clear, rational/factual analysis" from ol' not gonna tell.

Mr. Goldberg, very good article. What`s different now from times past is that the loony left Democrats have no Republican opposition. The two parties merely differ on how fast to take us to Central Economic Planning to go along with Central Healthcare Planning and Central Education Planning, etc.

I`m always amazed at the ironies life holds. Ron Paul was the only candidate who understood and warned of these things and he was called crazy. Dennis Kucinich was the only one who openly advocated these things...and he was called crazy.


did it just happen
Did our current economic situation just happen? Were there not deceptions and hidings of deceptions that led to each link in this chain of events we are witness to?
If regulation is not the answer, would criminal law be the answer? Or are you suggesting that the machinations that have led us here were indeed all the innocent meanderings of an amoral market? If that were the case would regulation of an amoral system that had as one of its functions the ability to fall, willy-nilly into chaos be worthwhile?
I ask because one must conclude either that people who participated in getting us where we are, are stupid but innocently so and that in and of itself should bring no charge of wrongdoing. If this is the case, then who in their right mind would entrust their economic well being to them, whoever THEY are. The other possibility is that people acted with some level of knowing malice; from a low of malicious greed to a higher level we call criminal fraud. If that is what is in play then those folks should rooted out and be dealt with.
The choices are either criminal sanction or regulatory restraint.
Oh. I guess to be totally honest there could be one other choice. We could chose to believe that these things occur by happenstance by which lesson we can all come to the new understanding that all this economic talk is really just gibberish given to cover the biggest gambling game going.
What say ye to this, Mr. Goldberg?

Republicrats

Medicare Part D. New Deal on steroids.

Miss The Point
Most honest people today will admit that Roosevelt's New Deal did not solve the Great Depression. It was the economic effect of gearing up for and financing WWII that did it. But Jonah we heartless conservatives miss the point. The New Deal was meant, like every other liberal program since, to make Americans feel better. Successful results are not as important as making the average citizen feel that the government is doing something to help them. And if you try to point out the negative performances of these "new New Deals" you are called heartless, greedy, uncaring etc. Results are less important than pop psychology. And I'm sure if Hillary or Obama get elected we will see plenty more of the same.

got nothing?
I didn't think so. The neocon fantasy world just keeps on going...

The Myth of government regulation
I have known some people who were both government inspectors or the objects of it. In every instance, the inspector was clueless. One ag dept inspector later became a salesmen of funeral plans. Those subject to inspections know the drill and how to minimize the impact of the inspectors. Once I was on the board of a Montessori school, and the teacher had to waste a lot of time getting the TP and paper towels rolling according to regulations which had nothing to do with educating children,
For the most part, the bureaucrats are low level political hires and are more a nuisance than anything else. When their party goes out of power they just hang around waiting for another government gig. They can't do a useful real job.

Mr. Goldberg
I had told my husband that I was hungry to learn something new, that interested me. He brought in your book, "Liberal Facism" and I just finished it. The book so completely turns popular assumptions on their head that I am going to have to read it again because I did not realize how much I had accepted the burlesque and shallow understanding about what 'facism' actually is. Now I recognize it (not in it's Nazi form) in so much of popular opinion and politics. Your book was a real eye-opener. Thank you.

roadmaster: YES! Well said!

Unfortunately, the limited libs just don't (or can't) seem to get it.

One has to wonder if it's an intellectual deficiency or an emotional block.

HOW many times does one need to repeat the same thing before he/she finally figures out that the outcome is not going to change???




Lizbenet
I've read it too. The reason it seems to turn past understandings of fascism on their head is because it is totally wrong. It takes a lot of slight of hand and general obfuscation to get there, but he has, apparently, been able to sway lots of actual fascist-thinking sorts, like himself, into believing that white is black, up is down and so on.

You are one dangerous Mein Kampf type of dude, Goldberg. That name's a little ironic too, isn't it?

Sig Heil, lier.

ElizabethBennet: An eye opener indeed!

The OTHER eye opener is just exactly how the liberal views and reactions precisely fit.. a square peg in a square hole... Dr. Lyle Rossiter's findings in his book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56494


"... veteran psychiatrist is making the case that the ideology motivating them is actually a mental disorder."

Dr. Rossiter writes, "Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded..."

"Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

We see that every day when the libs post...



Where would you want to start?
sawdust writes: 8:39 AM
talent scout
So, verify. I don't believe a thing you said, assuming you are serious.
-------

To begin to understand the verification process you must first come to realize the motives that has driven men who seek riches and power.

Unless one understands this motive, he cannot understand the driving force that inspires kings, merchants, tyrants and bankers, and a host of the worlds population.

And unless one can grasp the desire for riches and control, he will continue to be the uneducated serf for the men in control.

Its the elephant in the living room that most men never perceive no more than they perceive the laws of nature and Natures God.

Marx was a poor man and he despised the rich men who controlled the finances, this hatred and envy that took harbor in his heart inspired his writings, and all of it based in class envy.

If you care to learn more, or just blow me off, its your choice and I can live with either.
But, giving you the credit your post is sincere, you must begin with understanding the warfare of Marxism against American Free Enterprise.
He wrote it in the Communist Manifesto

There is no warfare between capitalism and communism in their goals, money and power.
They both have the same goals, to rule over money issues that all men are subject to.

The driving force behind both world views, communism and free enterprise is about who controls the money and the system that governs men.

If sincere, this is as good a place to start as any.

MARXISM IN OUR TIME
by Leon Trotsky
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~socappeal/MIOT.html

This book compactly sets forth the fundamentals of Marx's economic teaching in Marx's own words.



To understand the Communist Manifesto
Its imperative one understands Marx himself its impossible to deter or evade.

And its also just as impossible to understand todays world politics over power and money, without understanding the man Marx himself.

What inspired this man is essential to understand his writings and the Communist Manifesto, and its great influence on men of power.
Its also essential to understand the Communist Party, created by Lenin.

What drove Marx to write?
He had to have some inspiration, and knowing what that inspiration was is the key to understanding his influence on the world.
It has worked brilliantly due to the same inspiration that exists in the heart of mankind.
Envy, greed and power.




If I name the driving force that was behind the thoughts of Karl, some will roll their eyes and others eyes will be opened.
Just the way it is in this world of men.
Men who are envious of others never see it in themselves, just see it in their competition for riches, power and influence.
Seen in present day American politicians as well.

(pot calling the kettle black)

Some men actually believe Marx cared about the poor of his time, he didn't, he just cared about his own finances, which drove his envy against the well healed rich men who ran Germany, England, France and Russia and especially America.



cont.

Continued.......Marxism
But he was an intelligent man, who knew how to play on mankinds envy, and just had to say, I love the poor and can change the world to give them what the rich own.

Course the rich men have the same basic love for money and power Karl had.
Having the same desires for money and control, it did cause some friction.

This is to bring it to Leon Trotsky and Rockefeller, and their joining forces to bring the partnership of government and business to rule over all men.

Fascism, Communism and the New Deal

Methods vying with each other in the world arena - Fascism, Communism and the New Deal, and in all their manifestations.

All of it in the same spirit that drove Marx and Communism, greed, envy and the lust for power.

not gonna tell...
you're gonna have to come up with far more than ad-hominems (and that's all you've got from what I've read from you so far) before you register on the credibility meter...

one direction government
The problem is that government is like a ratchet - it moves in 1 direction only (with rare exceptions). So once the New Deal created the precedent for massively expanded government, the ball just kept on rolling.

Every time the Supreme Court or Congress creates a new right or entitlement, it is basically permanent. So every successive generation of liberals adds a new layer, and conservatives and libertarians fight in vain to merely slow the growth. When was the last time any major S Ct precedent was overturned, or any federal program or right was done away with?

As a law student, I place the blame squarely on the 1930s. The Supreme Court liberalized its interpretation of the Commerce Clause to give government the power to do virtually anything, and FDR and Congress ran with it.

Funny thing about stare decisis - any decision to expand a right or government power in effect overturns 200+ years of the non-existence of that right or power, yet that concern never seems to be raised. But god forbid a conservative suggests rolling things back and overturning a liberal decision - the shriekers are out in full force to prevent it. The government of limited powers created by our Constitution has sadly become ancient history.

talent...
Time to get back on the meds,man, before you hurt yourself.

ad hominem indeed
Sometimes it's all that will work against such narrow minded thinking.

OK - I just don't want to re-live or give any credence to Goldberg's book. It was a nightmarish experience for me from cover to cover - like when my mother made us eat liver.

My point is just that I think it's dangerous to practice revisionist history. That's what he's done and it is a lie.

Rockefeller loves money
Better than he loves God or mankind, or American Government as established.

Trotsky, a no body wanted personal power and recognition, Marxism opened his eyes to the path for his desires.

He had no love for his fellow man that inspired his love for Marxism, he seen it as the method to gain the power and personal recognition he was delirious to gain.

Their partnership(Rockefeller and Trotsky) came about due to having the same goals, riches, control and love of self over any love or respect for the mundane things the Founders of America believed and established.

America was not Founded in the love of money or power, even if it was a part of their world just as it is our own.
(nothing new under the sun)

The ideals set forth by the first Americans was Liberty that comes only from our Creator.
Who warned mankind against the sins of greed and envy.
Both as cruel a taskmaster as the Creator is generous.

To give every single man the control over his own affairs is way too much to ask for from men who believe they was born with the right to rule over others.

This is basic to understand the American Revolution.
The King of England tolerated no such ideals about freedom for all men, he considered himself God's own gift to mankind and their ruler.

(stay with me, this is all a part of the same subject of the New Deal, Communism, Fascism, Trotsky and Rockefeller [republicans]Democrat Marxists)

This same arrogance of the King of England was shared by the super rich bankers and businessmen in America.
They simply see it as their right to all power and control. A monopoly
Same goal of Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky, Vladamir Lenin, and our own Rockefellers and JP Morgans.




cont.






cont.......love of money

The common ground for all tyrants, thieves, crooks and politicians.


How can a man born in America and its ideals find a compromise with Marxism?
Easy, just as the Communists went about Incorporating Government and Business bring it all under their own rule, this same method is what inspired businessmen in America.
They seen it as brilliant.
Who would have thought that business and government could join forces in America?
The US Constitution would never allow that, so it became the enemy of both the Communists and the Super Rich men.
The Marxists gained a monopoly over both government and business in Russia, now how to do that in America?
It could not happen by revolt against the US Constitution, the people would have hanged the thieves.

So how to do it became the subject of many days and years of consideration.


The rich man thinks about such things as this, how do I make more profits?
He says to himself:
"I want a monopoly, and by God I will have it."
In defiance of God, but means nothing to him cause he loves money more than he loves God.

God may want men to live free, but damned if I do, I want to rule them myself.
This desire is what inspired both Karl Marx and the Super Rich men in America.
Shared goals, shared arrogance, shared contempt for mankind and a love for power and profits.


Thanks salty for reminding me
To take my meds.
I had forgotten them for sure, and your timely reminder is appreciated.
Just took two more pills, and see see things clearer, thanks to you.

find out...
what's going on in "not going to tell you's" brain, just click on the name!

Government has become a big business
which it was not supposed to become. As a result, the undesirable results of personal choice are seen more often as evidence that society needs to fortify personal comfort zones. This is the first time (its been building, really) in 25 years of social work practice that I regulary see people who cannot/will not conceive of trying to meet their own needs- many truly see government as their keeper and benefactor. That's not a deal any economy can or will survive.

What is curious about mankind
Is how he seeks hero's, some man he can look up to.
If any person, man or woman achieves financial success, he has gained many admirers.
Just the way the world is.

The New Deal was not possible without a crisis.
So who had the power to create the needed crisis in a Prosperous America?

The Bankers of the Federal Reserve System that the Rockefellers, Morgans, Benjamin Strong, also known as a lieutenant of J.P. Morgan; and Paul Warburg, a recent immigrant from Germany who had joined the banking house of Kuhn, Loeb conspired to take control over the Nations money, and succeeded doing just that, Unconstitutional or not.
To heck with that out of date document was their way of looking at it, they were much smarter men than the Founders were, in their eyes.



William Butler Yeats is known for his poetry, James Joyce for "Ulysses", Ernest Hemingway for "The Sun Also Rises", and T.S. Elliot for "The Waste Land"

And Woodrow Wilson as the man who handed the bankers control over America as it is this very day, and why we are being ripped off by both government and bankers.

FDR also was owned by these bankers, he was their man, and he gave us the New Deal.
An agenda of bankers who wanted to remove the Gold Standard to bring about the Marxist fiat paper credit and interest bearing funny money we all use today.

That works for the bankers as they sit on their fat butts and control the Nations Finances.
As it is right now.

No longer is America close to being a Constitutional Government.
We are ruled by our creditors, thanks to men who can be bought like FDR.
And then lifted up as some "saviour" of the free world, ha ha, I spit on his memory.

Look up Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinnely and what they had to say about the danger to America from bankers and corporations.

Wallstreet and the Communists
Enemies?
Ha ha

Paul Warburg informed his colleagues, avoid the name "Central Bank". For that reason, he had decided upon the designation of "Federal Reserve System".

No more Federal than Federal Express is.
Just a name of a private ownership of the American Economy, by bankers, not we the people.
Explains why things go from bad to worse today in government, all to the benefit of bankers and corporations.

Who have so much power over our government today as the power a property owner holds over a renter.


They own this country.

Its how the Communists of Red China are now given control over the Panama Canal, Port of Long Beach and getting the new Highway from the Texas/Mexican border to Canada.

See, business and communists are just two sides of the same coin.
Working together today to bring the world under the control of the UN and World Government.

And the American people argue over democrat and republican party bs.

talent scout
Your posts are often compelling, and it is clear you have a view from a good place in the stadium. What is your profession? If you aren't comfortable sharing personal info, I understand. Its just that you have impressive clarity regarding the the sequence of many events (I'm a little jealous, actually!) and I wonder what field you are in.

Before NAFTA
Government was not the mediator for International Trade.
They had been limited to just certain duties, like protecting American Citizens from unfair trading practices, and now scorned as "isolationist".

Since NAFTA, American Business is under an encyclopedia of regulations that replaced our once free trade.

America has never been isolationist in trade, our first citizens traded with China even back then.
But, not under intense rules and regulations from the government as today under NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, World Bank etc.

They actually had free trade deals, and not the controlled trade of a NAFTA "free trade" agreement, negotiated by governments.
It, business deals, was not a part of govenment function.

The Rich and powerful men of the 1890's to the 1930's were the ones who wanted the Tariffs on foreign imports, not the people.
The people could have had cheaper goods to buy if there had been no Tariffs.
The Tariffs were in place to keep cheap goods out of the market place, to the benefit of the rich manufacturers here in America.

Who charged the public higher prices than the foreign manufacturers wanted for the same goods.

The income the rich made from such situations became a point of arguments between the republicans and the democrats.

The issue of INCOME not being taxed.
The income was the gain and profit the rich were making and not paying tax on.\

Due to the Constitutional demand concerning Direct Tax. It must be proportional
Which became a Supreme Court Case, which then caused the call for the 16th Amendment to tax income(gain and profit) on a different scale than the direct taxes called for in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4
And
Article 1
Section 2
Clause 3



not going to tell you
Thank you for your respectful disagreement. I did not understand the book as an attempt to demonize liberalism (if I were a liberal I might), but rather an attempt to show that "American conservatism is not an offshoot of facism," but rather facism is an offshoot of Progressivism (or maybe Progressivism was an offshoot of facism. I understand Mr. Goldberg's definition of facism to be an international utopian movement that has as central tenets; "a quest for community, an urge to get beyond politics to a "Third Way", a faith in the perfectibility of man, an obsession with organic community and youth aesthetics, action and an all powerful elite-run state to coordinate society into a utopian dream." [almost a direct quote from pages 14-15]. That it first manifest itself in the French Revolution and that it influenced German educated fathers of American liberalism.

I found his arguments to this end well documented and compeling. I understand that you disagree, fair enough. What then is your definition of facism? Please do not see this as a belligerent challenge to your assertion, but you obviously have a different take and I am interested to know how you arrive at your conclusions.

I forgot
...as part of Mr. Goldberg's definition of facism, a yielding of individual liberty to what is deemed to benefit the organic whole by social planners.


I am a student
oldsocialworker writes: 5:08 PM
talent scout
Your posts are often compelling, and it is clear you have a view from a good place in the stadium. What is your profession? If you aren't comfortable sharing personal info, I understand. Its just that you have impressive clarity regarding the the sequence of many events (I'm a little jealous, actually!) and I wonder what field you are in.
----------
Of America
Of the US Constitution
Of the Holy Bible
Thats all there is of me, a simple student with great desire to learn the truth.

Which only comes from God, my true Instructor and Teacher.

Pr 18:1 -
Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.

And knowing this

Proverbs 2

21:30
There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.

para_dimz
Speaking on behalf of Mr. Goldberg, I say this: What the hell are you talking about?

Every "dollar" printed, drives up
The cost of gasoline, food, housing and clothing.
The essentials for life in America today, and the past with the exception of gas if we could still use horse or/and buggy.

Another distortion of fact is to call the Bankers fiat paper Federal Reserve Notes "dollars".
They ARE NOT US Dollars.
A US Dollar is made of Silver, not funny money.

Federal Reserve Notes are not money, they are the ghost of money.
Which the use of gains the bankers Title to Real Property, Deeds and the control of.

To bad Americans will no longer listen to such men as Jefferson.

"Put down all banks, admit none but a metallic circulation that will take its proper level with the like circulation in other countries, and then our manufacturers may work in fair competition with those of other countries, and the import duties which the government may lay for the purposes of revenue will so far place them above equal competition." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Pinckney, 1820. ME 15:280

"Everything predicted by the enemies of banks, in the beginning, is now coming to pass. We are to be ruined now by the deluge of bank paper. It is cruel that such revolutions in private fortunes should be at the mercy of avaricious adventurers, who, instead of employing their capital, if any they have, in manufactures, commerce, and other useful pursuits, make it an instrument to burden all the interchanges of property with their swindling profits, profits which are the price of no useful industry of theirs." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:61

not going to tell you
Boy, you collectivists get cranky when someone criticizes your "daddy."

Rock Strongo- I meant to say
I'll try again.
Mr Goldberg isn't just giving some historical overview of the New Deal. He's warning about new regulation of the financial sector and maybe the real estate sector of the economy. Here: "Now it's the financial crisis that requires a you-know-what."
He used the word crisis. I agree.
A. Did it happen by accident? Then I wouldn't regulate. Neither would I ever trust. That would prove it is just gambling under cover of credentials and documents.
B. Did it happen my malice or fraud? Then I would prosecute. That might prove the system is basically good. A few bad apples spoiled the bushel.
C. Did it happen due to simple greed that attempted to obfuscate or make opaque facts necessary to perform due diligence before fair transactions could take place? I would regulate. That would prove, in the absence of criminality that "buyer beware" or "caveat emptor" is insufficient protection not just for the transactees but for the financial system.
Mr. Goldberg hasn't seemed to unravel all that.

Bush...
has had his own "New Deal", only he didn't give an programmatic name. He merely called it something conveniently subjective - "Compassionate Conservatism". We're paying for his dictated "compassion" with a hefty increase of inflation, a sliding economy.

p.s. Rock Strongo
I question why a free market man like Mr. Goldberg has put the threat of future and further regulation in his sight for criticism yet I have not run across too much in the way of criticism of the regulations dredged up from my grandpops' days that gave the FED the legal cover to bail out Bear Stearns and now quite a lot of others caught in this mess.
A hundred Billion here, a hundred billion there. What's taxpayer money to those who claim the whole house of cards will fall without Mr. Taxpayer's underwriting the losses, right? I think I have a right as the underwriter to try to prevent being taken advantage of like that. You don't?
Seems to me Mr. Goldberg has quite clearly implied some regulations are OK.

Was there a point in there?
Umm . . . Lots of folks have tried to link their latest and greatest proposal to the New Deal? Ok kind of boring but it's your dime.

Maybe, uh . . . experimentation is bad? By all means let's keep doing the same thing and hope for a different outcome (Isn't that one definition of insanity?) Also, apparently your science education has been sorely neglected. Anyone who has ever conducted an actual, formal experiment will tell you that it involves a tremendous amount of planning.

Oh, there it is . . . hope and unity are bad because they generate power that someone might actually do something with . . . far better I guess to be hopeless, disorganized, weak and ineffective.

You can't be serious!



To Not Going to Tell You
You wrote...

Sometimes it's all that will work against such narrow minded thinking.

OK - I just don't want to re-live or give any credence to Goldberg's book. It was a nightmarish experience for me from cover to cover - like when my mother made us eat liver.

My point is just that I think it's dangerous to practice revisionist history. That's what he's done and it is a lie.

I read the book too, and I think it is probably one of the most important books of our time.

From your posts, you have offered nothing but ad hominem attacks of Goldberg, Conservatives, and the posters here.

I disagree with your assessment. You said Goldberg was practicing revisionist history. Perhaps if previous events have been inaccurately scribed, then someone comes along to straighten it out, it might be argued this is historical revisionism.

Please enlighten us with your more accurate recollections of the “Progressive Era” and demonstrate how Goldberg “lied”. We are at your disposal.

basis
Let's just have a conversation here.

Goldman is trying to say that liberals in present day America, have the potential and intention to become socialist oppressors. Even though I've been stunned by the depths that the neocon far right have stooped to in order to forward their agenda, I've always had faith that reason would regain a foothold - and I think it has with the general population. Unfortunately, some of the vestiges of that mind set seem to linger tenaciously. In particular, this notion that liberals would destroy our way of life etc..

There's a lot I think is stupid about liberalism, but I'm not so scared of them that I can't see that our country is too strong to allow something like a socialist state to take over. We may disagree on what you call socialist, but your invocations of Stalin et al make it pretty clear. I believe this is a false argument, a straw man to divert attention from the details where the actual truth of these things lies.

goldberg
oops, but he's not exactly Bill Buckley, is he?

Speaking of a new new deal

Its the same ole incorporation of government and business of the former USSR


WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is proposing a sweeping overhaul of the way the government regulates the nation's financial services industry from banks and securities firms to mortgage brokers and insurance companies.


The plan would give major new powers to the Federal Reserve, according to a 22-page executive summary obtained by The Associated Press.

The Fed would be given broad authority to oversee financial market stability. That would include new powers to examine the books of any institution deemed to represent a potential threat to the proper functioning of the overall financial system.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080329/ap_on_go_pr_wh/fed_over haul


Just like I said in my first post.

talent scout writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 1:25 AM
It worked then, its working now


Jonah writes:
A host of commentators have invoked the current mortgage credit crisis as justification for a sweeping intrusion of the government into the economy, not just into the credit markets. American Prospect editor Harold Myerson says, "Bring on the new New Deal


Forever? Thats a long time
Fed Leaders Ponder an Expanded Mission
Wall Street Bailout Could Forever Alter Role of Central Bank

By Neil Irwin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, March 28, 2008; A01

In the past two weeks, the Federal Reserve, long the guardian of the nation's banks, has redefined its role to also become protector and overseer of Wall Street.

With its March 14 decision to make a special loan to Bear Stearns and a decision two days later to become an emergency lender to all of the major investment firms, the central bank abandoned 75 years of precedent under which it offered direct backing only to traditional banks.

Inside the Fed and out, there is a realization that those moves amounted to crossing the Rubicon, setting the stage for deeper involvement in the little-regulated markets for capital that have come to dominate the financial world.

Leaders of the central bank had no master plan when they took those actions, no long-term strategy for taking on a more assertive role regulating Wall Street. They were focused on the immediate crisis in world financial markets. But they now recognize that a broader role may be the result of the unprecedented intervention and are being forced to consider whether it makes sense to expand the scope of their formal powers over the investment industry.

----------

For me, this was seen coming, and for the central bankers to say:

"Leaders of the central bank had no master plan when they took those actions, no long-term strategy for taking on a more assertive role regulating Wall Street"


Is such an outright lie.
How come I could know it before this article was published tonight if I did not already understand how they go about taking more and more power?

These bankers are systematic thieves and power mongers, afflicted with greed, and its path is always predictable.

So to summarize this article...
1. The New Deal lessened government regulation of big business.

2. The New Deal extended the Depression by several years.

Thank you, Jonah, for explaining how lowering government regulation of business hurts the economy!

Peace Train
Eloquent, concise.
Thanks

Peace Train - A better analysis...
--
...of the economic godawfulness of the New Deal is to be found in Jim Powell's recent *FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression* (2003).

Which I strongly recommend. The book is remarkably concise for its subject matter, with Powell's history and assessments of both policies and results quite well-supported.

In addition, freely available online are several excellent short articles by Powell, drawing upon the research he used to write *FDR's Folly*:

1) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

2) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3329

3) http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3327

4) http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n4/powell.pdf

If Mr. Goldberg's argument on the character and perniciousness of Roosevelt's New Deal seems to anyone unsatisfactory in either apparent coherence or credibility, Powell's work on the subject should prove both more accessible and of greater lucidity.

No one should be surprised to learn that what one is taught in high school and at the undergraduate level on the nature and history of the Great Depression - and the New Deal that so malignantly exacerbated it - is almost entirely based upon deliberately perpetrated prevarication that has grown to the status of uncritically examined myth.



-----
"Fascism was really the basis for the New Deal. It was Mussolini's success in Italy, with his government-directed economy, that led the early New Dealers to say 'But Mussolini keeps the trains running on time.'"

-- Ronald Reagan, *Time* Magazine (17 May 1976)

sj
A little full of yourself? Your statements are proof of how many big words you need to sound well informed, yet say nothing of substance on this subject. You don't know what I learned in HS or college. And invoking Reagan - perhaps the most deranged leader of our time on the economy - please broaden your perspective a bit.

These issues are a lot simpler than you make out. You just try to cloud the discussion to make room for your neocon assertions. You can call this an ad hominem, but if you respond, please tone down your bombast a bit.


not going - Not *EVEN* ad hominem
--
not going to tell you (now, *THERE*'s an online nickname wonderfully indicative of petulent immaturity; "Anyway...Onward") shovels feculence without substance, asserting:

"These issues are a lot simpler than you make out. You just try to cloud the discussion to make room for your neocon assertions. You can call this an ad hominem, but if you respond, please tone down your bombast a bit."


Who needs to call it "ad hominem"? Putzie, it doesn't even rise to the level of argumentum ad hominem. It's not even a goddam *RESPONSE*. It's a whine without substance, even in your complaint about my use of "big words."

In case you haven't noticed, you're on the Internet. Looking up anything you don't thoroughly understand is a matter of opening your Web browser in another window, going to one of dozens of search engines (Google, Yahoo!, whatever), and a quick copy-and-paste of any term that has you flummoxed.

Now, if "These issues [presumably the Great Depression and the New Deal] are a lot simpler" in your opinion, the fact that you've bothered to author a responsory post against my reference to Powell's work - on "These issues" - presses upon you a responsibility to *SUPPORT* your assertion with a substantive argument that summarizes the supposedly "simpler" assessment which you find convincingly rebuts Mr. Powell's work on the subject.

Or couldn't you be bothered to copy-and-paste into your browser's "Address" box those URLs I'd offered?

Otherwise, you'd know that the Cato Institute (at which Jim Powell holds a position as a Senior Fellow) is an explicitly libertarian think-tank, and has been boiling neocon blood for the past thirty years.

--

sj
Why not try to reinterpret the outcome of WWII to say Japan and Germany won?

As for your continued officious rant, I may be the only one who bothered to read your comment or look at your partisan, libertarian references. I didn't have to look up your "big" words - did you have to look up any that I used?

The only reason I wrote anything in this blog spot is to elicit responses on Goldberg's work in general. I submit that it is nothing more than a long-winded, revisionist diatribe with the intention of bending weak-minded people's understanding of recent US history far to the right and to exacerbating general fear of liberal and progressive thinking. That may not be specific enough for you, but I think the only way to argue against this kind of thing is to look at the big picture. I don't question your mastery of the details as you see them, but that is not where I was trying to go. As I said earlier my argument is more with Goldberg's assertions like: "It's all one-way, about finding new ways to expand government, not new ways to solve problems." Can you enlighten me as to how a statement like that - about liberals - can be justified?

As for my "name" - I was considering a full registration when I started looking at this site a few days ago - some of the venom, hate and general craziness I have seen in the blogs makes me glad I didn't fully register yet.

not going - On the re-examination...
--
...of received wisdom.

Comments not going to tell:

"...Goldberg's work...is nothing more than a long-winded, revisionist diatribe with the intention of bending weak-minded people's understanding of recent US history far to the right and to exacerbating general fear of liberal and progressive thinking."


This assumes - without argument - that such fears are without justification.

One of the principles of the scientific method is that there is *NO* assertion that is not subject to critical examination and disproof. The difference between an honest man and a "true believer" is that the former will maintain an openness to the consideration of such disproof while the latter merely screams in rage, screws his fingers into his ears, and chants "Nurmee-Nurmee-Nurmee!" to drown out the emotionally disturbing noise because he simply can't deal with the notion that his previous commitment to the ideals under attack was not only wrong but evil.

There is a proverb in my profession that "For any really significant advance to take place in medicine, a whole generation of doctors has to die."

I confess, the first time I remembered that at a hospital staff meeting, I started looking around to identify those colleagues I could reliably mark as better off dead.

If you're an honest man, any encounter with people such as Goldberg and Powell is met with gusto, for it's an opportunity for you to test your premises and strengthen your personal intellectual arguments in support of "liberal and progressive thinking."

If you're only a true believer, however....

--

Yet you come to compound
Its simplicity, if it is simple.
Explain how government fixes the world for me, its seems to be your theme.
Unless I am not understanding any of you attack on Doc, yet say nothing about the subject to simplify it a bit.
Lay off your personal attacks on Doc and get with it man, I await this all to be reduced down to the simplicity of it all.
Which I can do myself, but will allow you to support your own views of why Marxism is the path for the pursuit of happiness, life and liberty for all
----------
not going to tell you writes:
These issues are a lot simpler than you make out. You just try to cloud the discussion to make room for your neocon assertions. You can call this an ad hominem, but if you respond, please tone down your bombast a bit.

----------
Get on with it and leave Doc out of it, if you care to rise above your own petty bs.


Not heads contributions

His contributions:
Sig Heil, lier.


not going to tell you writes:
Contributions lack anything but light and small minded ad hominem attacks, on Goldberg or Doc.

So where is any statement of substance from this clown?




1.
not going to tell you writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 11:18 AM
got nothing?
I didn't think so. The neocon fantasy world just keeps on going...


2.
not going to tell you writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 1:45 PM
Lizbenet
I've read it too. The reason it seems to turn past understandings of fascism on their head is because it is totally wrong. It takes a lot of slight of hand and general obfuscation to get there, but he has, apparently, been able to sway lots of actual fascist-thinking sorts, like himself, into believing that white is black, up is down and so on.

You are one dangerous Mein Kampf type of dude, Goldberg. That name's a little ironic too, isn't it?
---------
ts writes:
This is his theme
Sig Heil, lier.

Go away kiddo, you come to attack people, and have nothing to say so fat as to the subject matter but such as this above.

Which puts you up for a weenie roast, weenie.

If you complain as to name calling, then do not do it yourself, chump.

This is the only thing Goldberg
Has wrong in my view.
-------
Goldberg writes:

Since George W. Bush was elected, liberals have been calling for new New Deals more frequently than my daughter asks "are we there yet?"
---------

Do not kid yourself, GW Bush is in on it all, and supports the same things FDR supported.


Its a strange world we live in
Here we have the present head of central banking admitting to Milton Friedman, the FED caused the Great Depression, on purpose.






http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021 108/default.htm

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002

On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday


Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve.

I would like to say to Milton and Anna:
Regarding the Great Depression.
You're right, we did it.
We're very sorry.
But thanks to you, we won't do it again.

Best wishes for your next ninety years.
------



Here is wisdom
Jas 5:1 -
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

The US Constitution never allowed the Partnership of Government and Bankers, or any Business of the Private sector.

Which Banking is a private business.


Under the Law of the Land, only the US Congress could issue the Nations Money, and set its value.
Which Congress did in the Coinage Act.
Still the Law of the Land too, as it has never been Amended.

What we have is the influence of Money Powers now in Control over the US Congress itself.



Through the present illegal system (DUE PROCESS has been DENIED, making it illegal to the Law of the Land, the US Constitution) every one of us are taxed to support these crime bosses of the Federal Reserve Banking Corporation.

Its why the people mourn today, its in the air, and can find no happiness living under this evil.
Not as a nation, only some individuals find happiness.Real Happiness that comes from the Creator, In God alone

Pr 29:2 -
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

And the bank is the source of this unhappiness today

lack of talent scout
I'm not attacking anyone - just entering into a spirited discussion - I do feel attacked by you though - especially with the biblical stuff- oops, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Your generalizations and assumptions that I'm a liberal are growing tiresome.

It seems to me the "doc" - is he like a halloween costume doctor or something? - can take care of himself.

That's not an attack btw - just trying to be funny.

SJ:
As for there me basing anything on an assumption that there isn't anything to fear from liberalism, I disagree. I think there's plenty to fear from unbridled liberalism - I blame that kind of thinking for a lot of what's wrong with the welfare system. But, I would argue that there is probably more to fear from the far right (including neocons and libertarians in this case apparently) trying to revise historical fact and re-defining clearly defined terms like fascism. That does scare me - a lot.


Your very first post
not going to tell you writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 12:30 AM
stay the course then
I realize that many people are buying your book(s) and reading your publications - congratulations. Lots of people buy illegal narcotics and alcohol to help them handle the realities of our world.

Here's a good one: "It's all one-way, about finding new ways to expand government, not new ways to solve problems." Feel the burn as it runs down your throat, knowing it's a lie, but welcoming its soothing simplicity.

I'm sorry sir. You are simply a liar, bent on taking advantage of people in need of reassurance and someone/thing to believe in without having to think about it.

I'd ask you how you sleep, but I'm sure you have no conscience, based on your published work.

---------

And so far its all you have done on this thread.
Put up something if you got it kiddo, or shut up one.
Quit puking all over the thread
Or
Puke on and just be ignored, moron.

So far you have offered such bilge as the above, only.

not going to tell you writes:
Your generalizations and assumptions that I'm a liberal are growing tiresome.

-----------
ts:
I never called you a liberal.
I called you a moron, a weenie too

no talent
I did attack Goldberg, not you, @ss.


not going - What scares you
--
In Greg Costikyan's designer's notes for *Pax Britannica* (1986), he differentiated between the 19th Century usage of the term "liberalism" and that current in late 20th Century America.

Which he characteriZed as "milk-and-water socialism."

Temporizes not going to tell (NGTT) at 3:27 PM:

"As for there me basing anything on an assumption that there isn't anything to fear from liberalism, I disagree. I think there's plenty to fear from unbridled liberalism - I blame that kind of thinking for a lot of what's wrong with the welfare system. But, I would argue that there is probably more to fear from the far right (including neocons and libertarians in this case apparently) trying to revise historical fact and re-defining clearly defined terms like fascism. That does scare me - a lot."


The first two sentences above beg the question with regard to the earlier complaint about "Goldberg's work...exacerbating general fear of liberal and progressive thinking."

Which indicates objection to Goldberg's present column (and, presumably, his recent *Liberal Fascism*) on the grounds that NGTT is an advocate of "liberal and progressive" political philosophy.

And, furthermore, resents the hell out of the use of the perfectly good term "fascism" - which had throughout the *first* half of the 20th Century been accepted as a valid descriptor of socialism in one of its best-understood and most open manifestations.

-- More --



not going - Embracing the scare
-- More --

Indeed, despite the unsupported hatred of Ronald Reagan ("perhaps the most deranged leader of our time on the economy") expressed earlier by NGTT, Reagan had grown to adulthood while fascism was flourishing in Europe and was being solemnly discussed as a guiding principle in American government.

He knew fascism's usage as socialism - and its link to what was even then being passed off as "Liberalism" - from the perspective of a middle-class American college graduate (having majored in economics and sociology, Eureka College, Class of 1932).

Whatever the economic policies of his presidential administration, during the Great Depression, the New Deal, and the flourishing of fascism, Reagan was not only a qualified observer but also a self-described "FDR Democrat," and therefore a supporter - at the time - of what Roosevelt was doing to the nation.

He's a goddam *EXCELLENT* first-hand citation on the New Deal's basis in fascism.

Beyond that, there is really *NO* "re-defining...terms like fascism" going on in Goldberg's work.

Rather, there is the recovery of plain fact about fascism and its manifestation in the New Deal (and, therefore, the basis upon which today's "progressive" advocates press for further *dirigisme* in political economics).

Fact which today's progressive (AKA "Liberal", AKA socialist, AKA corporatist, AKA Democrat Party stalwart) have deliberately or psychopathologically suppressed as entirely too revealing of their true intentions, objectives, and methods.

Now, if that gives you cause to fear libertarians (most of whom openly swear by the non-aggression principle), it's because you fear the lucid articulation of a factuality that rips out from under the true believer some important sense of personal justification.

--

As I am sitting here
I am listening to the news which is telling me
that our passports (for gods sake) are being
printed outside of our country. The newscaster
asked why the government didn't consider the
safety considerations of this.

I have an even more important question. Does it consider the safety considerations of shipping all of our jobs abroad? How long will it take before there is bloodshed in the streets? When people can't find work, they get mad.

It is time to get the Republicans out of office
as fast as we can, and put someone in there who
actually cares about the little guy - you know,
that group of people that made America strong.
The rich will always take care of themselves very
well, thank you.


viruddh - Beyond safety
--
viruddh asks:

"I have an even more important question. Does it consider the safety considerations of shipping all of our jobs abroad?"


Wrong question.

More appropriately, ask: "What has government done that has driven jobs abroad?"

I live in southern New Jersey. As I grew up, the town of Camden - directly across the Delaware from Philadelphia and therefore logically some extremely valuable real estate - degraded to the point at which it finds itself today named as one of the most crime-ridden urban areas in these United States.

Look at the places where Camden city limits adjoin neighboring towns - Pennsauken, Woodlyne - the change between devastation and middle-class prosperity is astonishingly stark.

On one side of Crescent Boulevard is Camden - abandoned buildings, burned-out businesses - and on the other is Collingswood, just another bedroom suburb of Philly.

What happened?

Local government.

Same climate, precisely the same population (back in the '50s and '60s), a *BETTER* mix of businesses and residential properties in Camden, same everything.

Except goverenment. Camden city government found it expedient to prey upon Camden city businesses, "regulating" retail and manufacturing enterprises, jacking up taxes on middle-class homeowners, and generally providing ample inducement for the most productive people in the town to get to hellangone out from under.

And out from under they got.

Capital - human and material - can pull up stakes and leave.

It's called "voting with your feet."

This is what has happened with American jobs on the national scale.

Understand?

--

sj
I am obviously no political scientist. And again, I'm not going to try argue with you about which author or politician has said what, when or where. I generally make inferences from my experiences, relationships and what I read (newspapers, TNR, Harpers and various others) and listen to on talk radio (both right and left). I consider myself a conservative on social issues, economics and foreign policy.

Economically, I believe that traditional conservative values include fiscal responsibility - not spending more than you make, a fair tax code including corporations and the wealthy contributing proportionally equivalent amounts to those of more modest means and so on. However, what people who call themselves conservatives lately seem to espouse to (and Reagan was big on this) is "trickle down economics". It did not work for Reagan (GHW having to eat his "no new taxes" speech) and it is not working now. We have attained a new all-time low as for fiscal responsibility.

I am very lucky - I have a great job, great family and a very nice home in the burbs. But many hard-working Americans that I come into contact with are suffering badly due to their rapidly deteriorating economic circumstances. many of them consider health care a luxury, but I won't get into that.

My point is that you can spend too much time parsing language or references instead of trying to evaluate what the larger picture and cause and effect relationships are. I guess you can define liberalism and fascism in any way you want. But I see people in similar circumstances to me - not wealthy, not seeing any benefit from the irresponsible economics of the right, and being swayed to supporting neocon and derivative ideologies by fear-mongering writings like Goldberg.


sj cont'd
It's very soothing and simple to have someone to hate who seems to be the route of all your problems, but it gets us nowhere as a society to view things this way. I think it's clearly parallel to the huge increase in the number of prozac and similar prescriptions lately - either instant gratification or the complete avoidance of the work that it takes to figure a way out of dire situations like this country is faced with at the moment - you'll probably call that statement stupid or naive.

I respect your apparent mastery of right-wing political theory. I have a problem with the fact that you seem to want to spend all of your talents arguing about the nuance and arcane details of those theories, rather than discussing the realities of where we are headed as a country.

Did you get this far "talent" scout?





not going - You can be...
--
...conservative in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.

Says not going to tell (NGTT):

"Economically, I believe that traditional conservative values include fiscal responsibility - not spending more than you make, a fair tax code including corporations and the wealthy contributing proportionally equivalent amounts to those of more modest means and so on."


The expression "fair tax code" is one of those well-greased phrases that slip from between thumb and fingertip rather too easily for comfort.

Ever run a business?

Forget the formal study of economics as it is presently perpetrated in American universities, which tends to navel-gaze upon econometrics more than black ink/ red ink realities *OR* what Ludwig von Mises elegantly described as "praxeology" (the study of purposeful human action).

To a guy running a business (from the biggest manufacturing concern to the local Papa John's franchise), all taxes, fees, regulations, and "political contributions" made to fend off the bureaucrats' various extortions are *COSTS*.

These costs *MUST* be passed along to the consumers of the business' products or services or else the business goes under.

The end consumer pays.

He *ALWAYS* pays. Whether the tax code is "fair" or not, the consumer is the critter who gets bled.

This isn't rocket science. It's the plainest, most Frédéric-Bastiat-ian, Henry-Hazlitt-ian kind of economics imaginable.

And therefore that which is most thoroughly despised and suppressed by professional politicians and academics alike.

This isn't "right-wing." It's reality.

--

not going - On Prozac
--
Pardon the addendum. Observes NGTT at 9:58 PM:

"...the huge increase in the number of prozac and similar prescriptions lately..."


Comment is warranted, if only for clarification.

Psychoactive drug prescriptions began to rise in the '50s, with the availability of early neuroleptics (haloperidol, thioridazine) and non-barbiturate anxiolytics (especially meprobamate). In the '60s, the benzodiazepines (chlordiazepoxide, diazepam, etc,) took over.

Meanwhile, over on the mood elevator (antidepressant) side, we went from the monamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) to the tricyclics in the '50s to the SSRI and later SNRI drugs in the '80s.

With each advance in neuroleptics, anxiolytics, and mood elevators, the adverse effect and drug interaction profiles improved along with evidence of effectiveness.

Moreover, with the increase in third-party-payor "health insurance" along the HMO model, more and more pressure was placed upon us primary care grunts - the "gatekeepers" in the HMO corporate scheme - to diagnose and treat patients with psychiatric disorders.

Such disorders have long been common in the practice of primary care. It simply wasn't until recently that we had pharmaceutical options that could be employed by non-psychiatrists with satisfactory safety or efficacy. Before that, most of our patients just had to suffer without relief.

Prescription drugs are cheaper than psychiatric or clinical psychologists' "talk therapy," ergo the HMO beancounters strongly discouraged anything but scrip-writing, ergo *LOTS* of prescriptions have been getting written for SSRI and SNRI antidepressants, later-generation neuroleptics, and the like.

What's the alternative?

Well, the HMO people would dearly love it if we did nothing at all.

--

LETS MAKE A DEAL!!!???
First there was the Real Deal which belonged to the founding fathers and mothers of our country and then there was the Square Deal preposed by Theodore Roosevelt at a time when the Sherman Anti-Trust laws or Competition Laws were introduced which were put on the books to protect average american companies from the monopolies of Big Corporations and their Cartels which made Free Enterprise impossible because of the managed trade already pieced together by the Free wheelers of Free Trade Anarchism or Pure Capitalism.

Around the Turn of the 20th Century Taft, Roosevelt, Wison and F.D.R were all Progressives to some extent by their own definitions. Today, we have Corporate mergers, Cartels like Nafta, Cafta, WPO and EU which make it hard for average american workers and companies to compete fairly in the so called Free Market Place. In Europe, companies that are subsidized by European Union Countries on the one hand but on the other hand are being awarded lucrative deals by our Pentagon and State Department as the last Dinosaurs of American Manufacturing are left out in the cold as American Tax Payer Military Projects which could easily equal around 40,000 thousand good paying American jobs is awarded to a Non American Company that does not even play by their own rules but rather plays by the rules of Protectionsim and isolationism that have become the epitaphs hurled at Americans who complain about oursourcing American Jobs.

LETS MAKE A DEAL!!!??? (2)
Later there was the New Deal and then came the Truman Fair Deal.

Seems to me that there have already been too many deals? You would think most Americans would wake up and see the writing on the wall.

Whether its Liberal Fascism or Conservative Fascism...the root is in the ism! Almost all ism's are forms of Totalitarianism to some extent, consider the this:

Nazism,Fascism-----Free Enterprise------Anarchy
Communism

FREE ENTERPRISE IS THE AMERICAN WAY
FREE ENTERPRISE means that everyone has a fair chance to compete in the market place. FREE ENTERPRISE means that the government acts like a referee to insure that all parties are playing by the rules.

FREE ENTERPRISE in an American sense would should mean that our government has the responsibility to insure that international countries are playing by fair rules too.

FREE ENTERPRISE means that limited regulation should insure that a mortgage meltdown should not occur.

FREE ENTERPRISE means that the government does not bail out the S&L and Brokerages who made unwise financial decisions.

FREE ENTERPRISE means that as Congressman Barney Frank has Opined that the Federal Reserve needs some sort of oversight agency to make sure they are playing by the rules too.

THERE HAVE ALREADY BEEN WAY TO MANY DEALS !!

sj
So...I'm right about the Prozac - easy fix, lesser short-term health industry cost - long term result is more costly due to treaing symptoms rather than underlying causes of mental disorders and issues covered up by these drugs.

I'm not convinced at all about the libertarian tax discussion. It seems you would rather not have anyone pay any tax. I, like you, feel like I pay more than my fair share. Yes, I've run a business and I'm running one now.

Taxes are not going to just evaporate - even if we got a Ron Paul into the White House. Here we are faced with the bigger picture again, homey.

not going - The nature of taxation
--
Comments NGTT:

"I'm not convinced at all about the libertarian tax discussion. It seems you would rather not have anyone pay any tax. I, like you, feel like I pay more than my fair share....

"Taxes are not going to just evaporate - even if we got a Ron Paul into the White House. Here we are faced with the bigger picture again...."


Taxation is understood. Government at any level must rely upon extortion (in one form or another) for funding. By and large, politicians prefer to "hide" taxes in the end-consumers' costs for goods and services, which is why we get vicious duplicities like the "windfall profits tax" Barack Hussein promises to levy upon the oil companies so that he can supposedly "invest" that revenue in government energy policy decisions that neither he nor anyone else in the government is qualified or - indeed - lawfully empowered to undertake.

(Another method of hiding government exactions is currency inflation, but if you're already familiar with Dr. Paul's observations on the Fed, you know how that thieving scam works.)

The problem with federal and state government is not necessarily taxation qua taxation, but rather *SPENDING*, which is damaging to the private (i.e., the productive) sector of society in two ways:

1) Such spending drives the engines of taxation, borrowing, and inflation, either directly or indirectly pulling operating capital from the private sector *AND* raising the cost of loans for capital investment;

2) Simultaneously, government spending on goods and services competes with the private sector, raising all costs associated with both business and the sustenance of life.

The U.S. Constitution alone will not suffice to control all such gadarene spending, but enforcement thereof (particularly Article 1, Section 9 and the Amendments of the Bill of Rights) would certainly help.

--

Dr. pimples
I really think you're looking at zits on the elephant's butt again, rather than the elephant in the "living room". Taxes are going to be a necessity - they always have been and always will be as long as the government runs on money. But I agree enforcement of the tax code is needed - I would argue that an entire overhaul is needed.

I was a little disappointed in the Barack Hussein statement. C'mon - the guy's name is completely irrelevant, unless you're one of those who actually think he's a Muslim.

TRUTH
Americans have a TREMENDOUS opportunity with this economy.But true to the American Nature,they have not a "CLUE". Sir Aslan,I did not know, that the "Progressives";At the turn of the 20th century had a definition.I remember scientific theory and efficiency,appearing after 1909.WHAT???

Just call me weedwacker
not going to tell you writes: Sunday, March, 30, 2008 7:31 PM
no talent
I did attack Goldberg, not you, @ss.
---------

I know
Instead of offering your point of view over Goldbergs subject matter, the new new deal, you instead come and offer personal attacks on him, or others.
Its why I said you are a moron.

You come will all the name calling then whine when what you serve up is forced down your own big mouth.

Moron

Now try to keep to the subject without your hairbrained personal attacks on Goldberg, Doc or other posters, moron.




The new new deal is about globalism
viruddh writes: Sunday, 8:30 PM
As I am sitting here
I am listening to the news which is telling me
that our passports (for gods sake) are being
printed outside of our country. The newscaster
asked why the government didn't consider the
safety considerations of this.
------

What's amazing is how the public does not get it that we have globalists in power who intend to sell out America and are doing just that under the flag of globalism and one world government.

As we argue over how stupid this is and think is because of some dumb person's decision who does not understand how dangerous for us citizens this is, they KNOW it is, and do not give a flying flip.
What they care about is incorporation of the USA into another county of Nations of the World, all under the uN.


No mystery to any of this
Simply study who controls the MONEY.
And how it has become controlled by a monopoly of Bankers.

Then it can all be cleared up for one and all what is happening to America.

A snippet from history as its impossible to put up all the information it requires to understand how Bankers used Marxist ideology of economic theory to arrive at their COMPLETE MONOPOLY OF AMERICAN MONEY, FINANCE AND ECONOMY.

And how they have slowly used POLITICS and POLITICIANS THEY OWN to gain all this monopoly over all money issues in the once free United States of America.

Documented evidence requires STUDY!

One small bit of that can be found here.
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolutio n/index.html





Motto of a monopolist
"Politics is the best BUSINESS of all".

JP Morgan, a monopolist banker.
Just one of the hoodlums who set the path for the bankers to own America Finance, business and GOVERNMENT.

Creeping change takes time
killer writes: Monday, 9:14 AM
TRUTH
Americans have a TREMENDOUS opportunity with this economy.But true to the American Nature,they have not a "CLUE". Sir Aslan,I did not know, that the "Progressives";At the turn of the 20th century had a definition.I remember scientific theory and efficiency,appearing after 1909.WHAT???
--------
If one goes back to the turn of the century, and what was happening in America with Business, Banking, Manufacturing, Labor, Politics and Government, it will show how the greed of republicans, the party of the rich man, was envied by the democrats, the party of the poor man.

Anyway that was the basis of arguments that defined republicans and democrats up to the 1900's through the 1980's.

Democrats were the party of the working class.
Republicans the party of the rich man.

So it was said anyway, regardless of the super duper rich men who were democrats and were in it for personal achievements every bit as much as any rich republican was.

The Marxists among us seen this class struggle as useful to create deeper and deeper divisions among Americans, as it now is.

United We Stand, Divided we Fall.

So the last thing the Marxists wanted was any Uniting of the people, they wanted division, and have now got exactly that.

The democrats being the party of the poor man(as it was claimed) was the best party to introduced Marxism and the Socialism we now have in Government of once free men.

Then to erase all divisions this created, the Marxists financed by the bankers planted moles in the republican party, whom we now call RINO's and Rockefeller Republicans.

More to come on this






Bankers own America
Everyone has heard the expression:
"follow the money"

And its just that simple.
Follow the trail that the excrement, the scum of the world leaves behind its obese riches.

The piles of do do is high enough to stink up the earth.

Whats that smell in the air?
People ask.
Oh its those republicans says one.
No, it the nasty democrats says another, and they argue endlessly over the stink and where it comes from.
AND both parties STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN.
The stench of American politics has gone global.

The world reeks with foul odors from the diarreah of the pig sty Washington DC has become.

Who smells the worst? One asks his neighbor(a party hack)
I know says the other. Its the republicans.

Nah, says the "informed one" its those lying democrats.

And all the slop that both hog parties get fed COMES FROM THE THIEVING BANKERS.
All this stink comes from the republicans

Correction for the last part
Who smells the worst? One asks his neighbor(a party hack)
I know says the other. Its the republicans.

Nah, says the "informed one" its those lying democrats.
All this stink comes from the republicans, argues the other

And all the slop that both hog parties get fed COMES FROM THE THIEVING BANKERS.
--------
Meant this last line to be last not above
"All this stink comes from the republicans"

Both parties are guilty of destroying this country.

Federal Reserve Banking Corporation
Are criminals, Marxists and globalists.
The most vile anti-American organization to ever gain foot hold in America.
This group is the ENEMY OF AMERICAN IDEAS.
Unless people know who the enemy is, they cannot defeat it.
The enemy of America are clever men.
They know to keep themselves out of the limelight, and do so, but pull all the strings in Washington DC to achieve their goals.
Complete domination and monopoly over all Governments and Business.
FACT!
They are doing just that, under, beneath, the eyes of the world.
This is who the real government is today, these money loving reprobates of criminal intentions to rule over all men, and do in this world of men.
Judgment is coming for these money lenders, you can rest assured.
God is not slack in His promise or His judgment.

Mt 12:20 - S
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

This Nation was Founded by Christians.
The Foundations can never be destroyed.






A money lender speaks:
Dear Mr. President:

I am in sympathy with the Soviet form of government as that best suited for the Russian people...

Letter to President Woodrow Wilson (October 17, 1918) from William Lawrence Saunders, chairman, Ingersoll-Rand Corp.; director, American International Corp.; and deputy chairman, Federal Reserve Bank of New York

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolutio n/chapter_01.htm


The "new conservative" old Trotskyites
Whom William Buckley is praised so highly for.

This man is was an X CIA operative, recruited by the 'anti-communist liberal'—in the Cold War.

From the time the CIA began its operation Mockingbird.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation of the media.

Not total of course, just important political opinion and stories slanted to work towards bringing America into the anti-bolshevik, menshevik party of Marxism.
The party of Leon Trotsky and John D. Rockefeller, and other such "luminaries".

Which is what dominates both republicans and democrat party headquarters today.

Mensheviks, Neo-Cons, "Democrats" and the RINO's like John McCain.



Money is the issue
Every argument in America rises out of financial arguments.

From class envy, to the rich man's arrogance.

Everything the US Congress, the US Senate meets to argue over, all arise from money arguments.

Money is America's god, and have become a nation of idol worshipers.
Fame, Fortune and Success are the goals of the ambitious among us all.

"Breaking the glass ceiling"
"Upwardly Mobile"
Disgusting ignorance, yet praised and lifted up as if all life is about involve ones richs, his fame, his fortune.

Life is not about housing, clothing or food and riches.
The true riches in life are so far above these temporary assets its comparable to difference in Death Vally to Venus in elevation.

Money is a tool, but greedy men see it as god.

"Those who steal from private individuals spend their lives in stocks and chains; those who steal from the public treasure go dressed in gold and purple."
Cato


"Government is a health hazard. Governments have killed many more people than cigarettes or unbuckled seat belts ever have."

"And the merest glance at the federal budget is enough to convict the government of perjury, extortion, and fraud."
PJ O'Rourke

I have done my best, salty
salty writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 10:22 AM
Still waiting...
for verification of all that paranoid blarney from talent scout;

and the "clear, rational/factual analysis" from ol' not gonna tell.
---------

I could fill this thread with more information than is on the internet, given the time, patience and desire.
But I have given you enough information for you to think about, read up on, study already, if you are indeed interested in why I said this in my first post.


quote:

talent scout writes: Saturday, March, 29, 2008 1:25 AM

It worked then, its working now
See, the bankers seen Marxism as the best plan to get all power incorporated and under their control, seeing as how they hold all the gold and the paper we use for money, called Federal Reserve Notes.

I can verify every thing I am saying.
----------

Now you have anything to say about my medication?
Fine, let me see your qualifications as a doctor first.

William Buckley, a word hairdresser
And the man who gave birth to all American Patriots being called "conspiracy nuts" that call attention to the Federal Reserve Mafia.

The man who gave birth to all American Patriots who want American jobs protected with free and fair trade, as "isolationists"

The man who gave birth to any question by an American Patriot like Ron Paul or a Pat Bucanon, or me for our Nation Building in Iraq and Afghanistan as "beyond the pale".

This phony is admired, what a disgusting day it is for America.

William Buckley

Your first Neo Con, a true menshevik and liberal anti-communist, a Rockefeller Trotskyite Republican.
A strong voice for the incorporation of Business and Government Partnership.
As we see it under NAFTA etc.


"Whatever his heritage, young Buckley—enthusiastically encouraged by friendly promoters in the major media—authoritatively began to declare what was permissible for American conservatives to discuss:

Anyone who raised questions about such issues as Zionism or the role of big international money in dictating the course of world affairs was a "conspiracy theorist" who was "beyond the pale" and delving into "fever swamps" from which Buckley vowed it was his singular mission to exterminate such pestilence, in particular that of "anti-Semitism."

In your face America
All your money is owned anyway by the partnership of the bankers and government.
Pay em



Paulson proposes major financial overhaul
Martin Crutsinger - Associated Press Economics Writer - 3/31/2008 11:55:00 AM

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration Monday proposed the most far-ranging overhaul of the financial regulatory system since the stock market crash of 1929 and the ensuing Great Depression.(see video report)



The plan would change how the government regulates thousands of businesses from the nation's biggest banks and investment houses down to the local insurance agent and mortgage broker.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson unveiled the 218-page plan in a speech in Treasury's ornate Cash Room. He declared that a strong financial system was important not just for Wall Street but also for working Americans.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Headlines/Default.aspx?id=74

talent scout
Please get your own blog - your self-important, incredibly long-winded rant is not even worth reading.

I think I speak for everyone who commented earlier with some economy of words, that you have taken a big dump on the discussion here. Thanks for explaining in such detail what a fool you are, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares.

not going - The "tax code" is *NOT*...
--
...the Constitution.

Misapprehends NGTT:

"Taxes are going to be a necessity - they always have been and always will be as long as the government runs on money. But I agree enforcement of the tax code is needed - I would argue that an entire overhaul is needed."


Nowhere in the post of mine to which is appended this response do I mention "the tax code," but rather the U.S. Constitution, which lays out the lawful ways in which the federal government may lay and collect taxes.

I drew attention more specifically to the restrictions upon federal power (in the much-violated Article 1, Section 9), but the Constitution is most definitely *NOT* "the tax code," much of which is explicitly violative of the controls built into the charter that arguably legitimates the federal government under which we suffer.

If criminal violation of the law as a matter of government policy is not - in the opinion of NGTT - "...the elephant in the 'living room'," we've just *GOTTA* squeeze this guy by the seedpods until he tells us (pretty please!) just what the puck he thinks is a *BIGGER* problem.

None of which he has thus far stipulated.

As for the repetition of Barack Hussein's middle name, does it hurt to remind one and all that Barry-boy is - according to Islamic law - an apostate who has turned from the One True Faith and is therefore automatically under sentence of death in any country where Sharia is the law of the land?

Might make visits of state a little awkward if Mocha Marvin, the Hubshi Heretic, ever gets elected President.

Jeez, no wonder he wants to whip it out of Iraq.

Gawd forbid he should ever have to go visit the troops in a place where everybody wants to kill him.

Probably why he avoids Utah.

--

Take a hike weenie boy
not going to tell you writes: 8:05 PM
talent scout
Please get your own blog - your self-important, incredibly long-winded rant is not even worth reading.
--------
ts:
You poor uneducated man, I never expected a moron to read it anyway.
Leave me out of your moronic posts, we will get along fine.

----------
not going to tell you writes:
I think I speak for everyone who commented earlier with some economy of words, that you have taken a big dump on the discussion here. Thanks for explaining in such detail what a fool you are, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares
---------
ts:
First off you do not think.
You do nothing but spit out bilge.

Second thing is I already know how dumbed down people like yourself are, and want to stay that way.
But most are smart enough to move on, leaving you, the thread moron as the only one whining.



what's up "doc"?
If taxes are your biggest problem, I would argue that you've got an extremely easy life. You seem to be a super duper libertarian. I'm sure your exquisitely arranged collection of army guys (or Barbies) is a sight to behold.

And you were still sounding well-informed and reasonably intelligent there until the weird stuff about Obama.

So it's better to have an moronic ideologue like cheney - sorry bush - as president than someone who might offend a few bronze age oil barons? Don't you think bush is "under sentence of death" in the Islamic world with the fundamentalist crazies there (and here)? He has, after all, defiled the "holy land".

I had hopes we could have a reasonable discussion, but with a nauseating perspective like that, it seems unlikely. Do you check for Islamic terrorists under the bed every night before the nurse comes with your meds to tuck you in?

not going - Taxes alone? Nope.
--
Fixates NGTT:

"If taxes are your biggest problem, I would argue that you've got an extremely easy life."


Taxation is merely (can the word "merely" be used in this context without irony?) the necrotic Stage 4 ulcer on the American body politic. While it certainly *MAY* kill us, it isn't the central pathology that *IS* killing us as a civil society.

Which you keep inexplicably ducking and dodging, and to which I keep returning.

That's the persistent refusal of our elected and appointed officers of federal civil government to obey the U.S. Constitution.

The currently prevailing modalities of taxation are overwhelmingly uttered and operated in clear contravention of the powers and limitations articulated in that charter of government.

Think of taxation as a secondary but glaringly obvious manifestation of a deeper, less easily perceived, and yet much more malignant disease process.

Consider http://www.petitiononline.com/USRC01/petition.html

...whence we get the following:

"The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, entail much more than a piece of paper. The document’s intentions and meanings are clearly put forth in the Annals of Congress, The Congressional Globe and the Congressional Record, by our founding fathers."


If you're interested in "a reasonable discussion" (as you've claimed), let's discuss constitutional government.

And the current lack thereof.

--





dr. dreamer
Can we come back down/up to reality here for a minute?

I read the petition, but will not sign it because I need to give an address and so on. That's because I'm afraid of MY bogeyman - the far right, who can get that kind of information and twist my nipples or worse with it someday.

You go on worrying about Obama and the crazy Muslims. I will sleep just fine tonight. BTW you said nothing about my calling you on your peculiar statements about him.

Your ardent fervor about the Constitution is admirable, but I think you are forgetting. We don't live in 1802 or the rest of the 19th or 20th centuries anymore. The Constitution is a living document, meant to be interpreted and re-interpreted as time moves on - truly one of the most ingenious things about it, I think.

Your black and white interpretations and frankly naive inferences belie the fact that you only seem to want to focus on just a few issues - leaving plenty of room in your fallow psyche for dismissing a potentially seminal leader like Obama. As I asked you before, what are our options at this point?







not going - What, me worry?
--
Misapprehends NGTT:

"You go on worrying about Obama and the crazy Muslims. I will sleep just fine tonight. BTW you said nothing about my calling you on your peculiar statements about him."


That's because nothing you've said regarding my comments on Barack Hussein's middle name (or his apostasy) is worth a sh!t. Were my observations true or not? Are his ethnic origins and his personal cultural background pertinent to the kind of man he is, or not?

Indeed, is there anything *BUT* his ethnic origin that serves to differentiate him from any other "Liberal" politician contending for the presidency in this election cycle?

As for my worries, why need I concern myself unduly with fatwa-fixated foreign fellahin? That's Mocha Marvin's nocturnal terror, not mine. "I have it in me so much nearer home/ To scare myself with my own desert places".

Specifically a federal government gone juramentado, those "lesser breeds without the law" (both Democrat and Republican) who have entrenched kleptocracy under the guise of representative government.

As for your placid (shall we say: "ovine"?) dismissal of the pertinence of the U.S. Constitution as a pre-19th Century confection of a "living document"....

Pucking peculiar kind of "conservative" *YOU* are, putzie, espousing the central fiction upon which the "progressive"/ "Liberal"/ murdering socialists have based their assault upon the law of the land. Methinks you'd earlier dissembled. Bodaciously.

...the Constitution is still the g-string and pasties behind which the misfeasances of both Republican and Democrat politicians are practiced under the fantasy of legitimacy.

The claim its color as protection, and literally swear by it.

Why not hold them to it?

--






One last time
You appear to be so immersed in your own "kleptocratic" fears that, I'm pretty sure that with a little more effort, your tonsils should be coming into full view soon.

I feel sorry for you and your fearful little pseudo intellectual bubble, hating what you don't have the capacity, or will, to try to understand. You obviously can't answer my question regarding our options because you have given up. Your pathetic petition with 2,500 signatures is a clear indication of your position.

I have enjoyed some of this, but I am extremely disapointed at your bigotry and obtuse viewpoint. Note singular on viewpoint.

not going - Three paragraphs of evasion
--
Demonstrating no "intellectual capacity" of note, NGTT flatulates without substance regarding "our options" at remediative action in addressing the pathology of unconstitutional government action when he has persistently refused to offer any honest of his own perceptions about government-gone-bugnuts.

To fix something, schmuck, you must first arrive upon a definition of the problem you're trying to fix.

Possibly because NGTT - who has previously (mendaciously?) described himself as a "conservative" - is perfectly happy with the Christlessly horrible socialist status quo, and would see nothing but improvement in it getting even worse.

After all, it's NGTT who (at 11:26 PM) had decried my supposedly "...fallow psyche for dismissing a potentially seminal leader like Obama."

I submit that no honest-to-Burke conservative American would use the word "seminal" in a characterization of Mocha Marvin except in the sense that he might be creatively analogized as the political equivalent of a planeload of waterhemp, woolly cupgrass, and burcucumber seed dumped over a corn-farming county in Iowa.

That NGTT should be distressed by expressions of contempt for Barry-boy marks this narc as a flaming "Liberal" of the chronic severe variety.

Our nottie "...doth protest too much, methinks."

Go get yourself another nickname, little fraud.

You've worn this one out.

--

malpracticing
The fact that you have deluded yourself into thinking that I am anything but a conservative is a perfect illustration of how far out your psychotic arguments are. Pop another lithium and keep f*cking yourself up the @ss with your tiny little head.

The fraud here is your on-line persona as some kind of political/libertarian guru. Keep on thinking your smarter than everyone else. Sooner or later you'll probably find someone who actually is dumber than you are.

not going - Stick a fork in it...
--
Admits NGTT:

"...I am anything but a conservative...."


Minor editing to put the stress on that precious tiny grain of truth in all the chaff.

Future readers of nottie's posts are invited to go here:

http://tinyurl.com/2phu6f

...for appropriate theme music to accompany the experience.




------
"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic."

-- Frédéric Bastiat

Silly Jack*ss Doc
You are quite an authority on reformulating others' opinions and statements, taking things out of context etc. If I ever need and obfuscation, I'll know who to contact. As for this thread and your crazed blather, I'm done. You've proven nothing to me other than to reaffirm my loathing of articulate people who are full of hate. Your antebellum views on the Constitution are quaint, but far out of touch with realities like the fact that there are people like you who call themselves Americans, yet live their lives in a fog of confused, immoral and convenient fantasy.

I don't care who you vote for. I will vote for Obama as the only conservative choice available to me.

Out.

not going - Out? You mean ''gone''
--
And there's the final number on NGTT's Dachau tattoo:

"I will vote for Obama as the only conservative choice available to me."


*THAT*'s the voice of a conservative?

Conserving what? *Das Kapital*?





--------
"I don't like the income tax. Every time we talk about these taxes we get around to the idea of 'from each according to his capacity and to each according to his needs'. That's socialism. It's written into the Communist Manifesto. Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what's happening to him."

-- T. Coleman Andrews

Not Going to Tell you ....You are WRONG!
Talent Scout has some very interesting posts and some of the information he supplies from the Reform-Theology end of the hall is old information that has been accumalated by some Reconstructionists and I applaud their keeping this old information fresh....as not to grow too stale like their Calvinism Theology.

I agree with the information the messenger has supplied but I will not kill the messenger simply because I abhor Calvinism and its demonic humanistic tendacies.

Voltaire said: "I may not agree with all that you have said but I shall defend your right to say it to the death."

Dr Seuss said:

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

Dr. Seuss
US author & illustrator (1904 - 1991)

sir asslan
You , much like dr. dumass, should consider the realities of our situation. I am not interested in engaging in a theoretical discussion about American politics. Goldberg's book is a study in over-rationalization of convenient political perspectives. Our constitution could be totally meaningless if another neocon gets into office. You can ruminate over the minutia of the country's current state. Nothing will get done without a larger picture viewpoint.

The time for quoting Voltaire has passed.

You have one vote for president this year. Your choice is to either throw it away to try to make a point. Or to vote for an unknown, apparently less contaminated commodity - Obama.

My conscience will not let me support anyone else.


not going - What do *YOU* care...?
--
...about the Constitution?

Says NGTT (to Sir Aslan):

"Our constitution could be totally meaningless if another neocon gets into office."


Not that I disagree, but letting yet another pucking welfare state jerk-job slime his way into the White House is something better?

And we're getting *THIS* advocacy from a blatant "progressive" who's been masquerading in this forum as a conservative?

NGTT has already dismissed the U.S. Constitution as a "living document" (i.e., not a written charter of government that elected and appointed federal jobholders need actually *OBEY*) because: "We don't live in 1802 or the rest of the 19th or 20th centuries anymore."

So now this schmuck is suddenly worried about "Our constitution"?

Yeah, sure. While you've got your hand shoved up my shorts, yank the other one, why dontcha?

Again, the question is begged: just what the puck is it that NGTT is interested in conserving? The platform of the Socialist International?

Folks, this is the scumbucket who endorses Barack Hussein as an "...apparently less contaminated commodity."

Oh, yeah. Barry-boy. The Cook County Candidate of the Living Dead.





--------
"Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it."

-- Davy Crockett (comment to a friend about the US Congress)

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