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Saturday, March 22, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mamet vs. the Greek Chorus
by Jonah Goldberg
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David Mamet, considered by some to be the greatest living playwright, has proclaimed for all to hear - but few to listen - that he is no longer "a brain-dead liberal."

Mamet uses the phrase "brain-dead liberal" in quotation marks precisely because he was never actually brain dead. Rather, he just told the relevant parts of his brain to play dead whenever inconvenient facts staged an assault on his cranial bunker.

"As a child of the '60s," he recently wrote in a startling and lively essay for the Village Voice, "I accepted as an article of faith that government is corrupt, that business is exploitative, and that people are generally good at heart."

But Mamet has changed his mind. The accretions left from wave after crashing wave of reality made it impossible for him to carry the load of his cognitive dissonance. For years he'd called NPR "National Palestinian Radio." He'd realized that while government may be incompetent, corporations at times myopic, and the military imperfect, seeing politics through the prism of a Thomas Nast cartoon (you know, where industrialists are cast as pigs in tuxedos feeding at the public trough) might not be as wise as, say, The Village Voice believes it is.

"I began reading not only the economics of Thomas Sowell (our greatest contemporary philosopher) but Milton Friedman, Paul Johnson and Shelby Steele ... and found that I agreed with them: a free-market understanding of the world meshes more perfectly with my experience than that idealistic vision I called liberalism."

Mamet invokes John Maynard Keynes' response to criticism that he changed his mind: "When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

Michael Billington might have a different response. "I am depressed to read that David Mamet has swung to the right," wrote the Guardian's theater critic of more than three decades. "What worries me is the effect on his talent of locking himself into a rigid ideological position."

This response is quite simply perfect, a Picasso of asininity, a Mona Lisa of moronic imbecility.

Mamet, a dashboard saint of angst-ridden cosmopolitan liberalism, has set out to read widely and carefully, exploring how his outdated political pose no longer tracks with reality or with his own understandings of the world, and Billington worries that Mamet is locking himself into a rigid ideological position.

Mamet has, Houdini-like, gone through the painful process of regurgitating a key to the chained-up straitjacket in which he'd been trapped, and after the required internal dislocations has emerged to think freely about the world, and this guy somehow thinks Mamet's trapped himself.

The playwright has explicitly rejected dime-store Marxist categorical thinking, embracing instead the idea that whatever differences people bring to the stage of life based on their varied experiences, human nature is universal (at least to humans) and people are, well, people. Of course, some are evil, some good, most a complicated mixture of the two. But simply because a person represents or works for The Government or Big Business - or, for that matter, Fashionable Minority X, Y or Z - doesn't mean you know all you need to know about them. A business card is not a Rosetta stone for deciphering a man's soul.

But don't tell this to those who define sophistication and nuance by a work's ability to confirm preconceived notions. A writer in The Independent frets that "so complex and profound and gifted a playwright should now seek to reduce his own work and his own politics to simple concepts." People like this see more complex hues in, say, George Clooney than in a painter's color wheel.

Clooney proclaimed not long ago, "Yes, I'm a liberal, and I'm sick of it being a bad word. I don't know at what time in history liberals have stood on the wrong side of social issues." Ah, yes, there's fine-tuned, historically informed thinking on display!

Mamet has committed the sin of free-thinking in a world that defines it as "ideological rigidity" while dubbing conformity "diversity." Already, critics are saying his work is slipping. Soon, they will say his work was never that great to begin with (that's what they've been doing to Dennis Miller for his heresy). The more Mamet rejects the divine pieties of the left and thinks for himself, the more the Greek chorus of straitjacketed "free thinkers," their heads shaking in unison, will tsk-tsk Mamet's rigidity.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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David Mamet will be a very tough sell to
the (social) consevatives here at Townhall, Jonah. This is a guy who wrote "Sexual Perversity in Chicago" & "American Buffalo" (which would leave the evangelicals screaming for the hills... all that damned profanity!), he's against the war, he has no problem with gay marriage.

I think "libertarian" & economic conservative might even be too boxed-in terms to describe the worldview of David Mamet. David's a true original. "Republican", "conservative", or "democrat" are just too narrow, anemic terms to describe him. Those terms are for less original, pedestrian americans who think in terms of conforming to a status quo.

Mamet a "classic liberal"
Like Milton Friedman, Mamet appears to be a "classic liberal" in the tradition of the Founders. "Liberalism" was originally an intellectual movement that emphasized individual liberty as the ultimate social goal and the individual as the ultimate social entity. Each human being was viewed as an end in himself, not merely a means to the ends of others.

In order to implement this philosophy into practice, liberalism supported the free market to0 reduce the role of the state in economic affairs, thereby enlarging the individual's role, and also to link the nations of the world together voluntarily and peacefully in mutually beneficial relationships.

In political matters, liberalism supported a constitutionally limited minimalist government, existing only to protect the life, liberty, and property of peaceful citizens.

Opponents of this movement thought it expedient to appropriate the good will of the term "liberal" for themselves, turning it on its head to become the label of those who favor powerful, centralized government, massive state intervention in economic affairs, and coerced paternalism. In other words, the very philosophy against which the original liberals rebelled!

LIBERALS WORRY ABOUT MAMET.
"What worries me is the effect on his talent of locking himself into a rigid ideological position."
Michael Billington

Oh Puleeze! Stop will ya! this guy is the same as so many other liberals, who have, as an example, admired Fidel Castro and how he has treated the people of Cuba for so many years.

Can you imagine trying to sell any of these phoney libs on what Cubans have really had to put up with for so long:

• Inability to travel outside the country without prior government approval.

. Lack of adequate food & clothing in stores for the "common folk."

• Not having open access to the Internet and satellite television.

• Being barred from buying or selling a home or car.

• The lack of citizen access to Cuba’s luxury hotels, where only foreign tourists are allowed.

. Lack of Political & Religious freedoms.

. Real threat of imprisonment for protesting any of the above.

And Mamet is hidebound???!!!???


Perfect!
Another liberal begins to think for himself, and the left attacks him. Again. I am with Churchill (Winston, not Ward) that when the young feel they are liberal, and when the mature think, they become conservative. Kudos again, Jonah, for getting right to the heart of the matter!

So what?
I read the Mamet article & disagreed with some of the points which, Mamet says, led to his awakening. For example, in coming to realize that Bush & JFK, his hero, are equally flawed, he cites as fact that Bush lied about his service record. Maybe Mamet finally has taken JFK & human-nature down from the pedestals where he had them, but that doesn't mean he sees clearly. It's a long way from 'no longer brain-dead' to 'worth listening to.'
PB

"Liberals"
Michael beat me to the punch, and said it very well.

No Difference at the Extremes
Our labels seem to define us and sadly limit our thinking. Independent thought suffers whenever fully aligned with a political group…conforming views to fit the mold.

The effects of ultra conservatism and liberalism are equally debilitating.

pb...is that for peanut butter?
...must be, for that gluey, sticky thinking process.
GWB (it has been proven) did not lie about his service record.
Get a grip.

Observation
It's interesting that so many on conservative websites, here included, demean, denounce, attack ad hominem, those that are liberals.

Then when one of them admits to an awakening of his mind and voice toward more rational thinking, developing as it is, you denounce that, as well.

You're all pathetic. Fascistic hypocritical.

Not one of you was born with ideology you now hold. You developed this over your lifetime and some of it considered quite loony, especially religion. Quite a bit of it probably indoctrinated by conservative parents or in opposition to your parents.

Are you now who you were at age 15?

Yet, you lift yourselves to the sanctimonious soapboxes by which you fall every time a scandal of your party reveals itself.

Any time an individual develops and evolves his or her thinking to greater understanding of personal accountability/responsibility we should all be celebrating as it furthers the intellectual needs of our greater society over time.

Once again, the "religious" who feign holding "charity" towards others are anything but charitable.

You frauds.


Dear Scooter
No. We AREN'T who we were at 15. That's exactly the point. It's one of the key differences, in fact, between liberals and conservatives. Some of us- even those of us babyboomers who grew up in the self-indulgent turmoil of the late '60s- can finally unlearn the lunatic-born lies of our youth and realize that traditional values have worth. "The lie oft repeated"... eventually grows stale.

The Company You Keep
to the Sergeant Major Eric Haney (retired), who is pictured with David Mamet on this column page, and who is a producer and the technical advisor for "The Unit," wrote "Inside Delta Force," one of the best military books I have ever read. He previously worked with Mamet on another project. If you are judged by the company you keep, Mamet's movement right is not entirely a surprise, only the pronouncement is. Liberal Hollywood's reaction, however, will be entirely predictable...and bleepity, bleep bleep those who think everyone on the right are saints.

As John McLain would say:
Welcome to the party pal!!! Mamet irked a lot of his fellow libs with his lifestyle. He was a gun owner and avid deer hunter to boot. He was the liberal yin to the conservative yang of the great John Milius.

-Ray

Steve
So you miss the point of my post completely.


You are not who you were then, you developed, evolved your understanding of the world around you.

All people spend their lifetime shifting paradigms. Your paradigm shifts the moment you awake every morning. Get a clue.

EVERYONE develops from the moment of conception. Outside the womb you learn about the world, you shift your understanding every moment of your life.

You don't believe in evolution so it's not surprising that you're probably not evolving.

Excellent analysis, Michael.......
Michael, yours is the best exposition of the original meaning of the term "liberal" that I have ever read. Seems I remember running across something not quite so good on the same subject maybe forty years ago, but nothing since then. Your contribution is valuable, extremely well written and we all thank you for it. (I saved it to my hard disk.)

scooternyc

Passionate words…but apparently you missed mine in this thread. I’d like to respectfully provide some constructive feedback.

You accuse everyone on these boards of name-calling in your first sentence, and then devote the remainder of your post doing just that.

“It's interesting that so many on conservative websites, here included, demean, denounce, attack ad hominem, those that are liberals.”

And then:

“You're all pathetic. Fascistic hypocritical.”

Also, your points might be better served without using all inclusive words and statements such as, “everyone” and “all of you”. These sweeping accusations are simply untrue and detract from your intended message.

There’s a smidgen of validity hiding in your post, but its obscured by the extraneous and unnecessary rhetoric.

IN THE NOW - 1
I don't hold up some "sanctimonious morality - christian charity" ideology rooted in nothing. Religious people do, which by admission, many on this blog would agree they are highly religious.

Sorry, I'm not a hypocrite like religious people.

People deserve respect for the sake of existence within humanity. They DON'T deserve respect for the mere ability to spout off their rhetoric, ideology, or anything that comes out of their mouths or deeds and actions observed.

I live my life at no cost to others and respect individual freedom of choice to speak, live your life as you desire at no cost to others. I don't moralize people's behavior - it's not my business. Religion by it's very nature, does exactly that.

Apparently facing reality, the choices before you given the evidence of observation, doesn't seem to be within your purview.


IN THE NOW - 2
I've not encountered ONE religious person on this site EVER to my recall, that speaks of personal responsibility and accountability toward the end of minding their own business and living their lives at no cost to others.

So, yes, "everyone" and "all of you" does apply.

Any rational person speaking to these concepts can, indeed, engage in rational dialogue.

The mere adherence to religion itself, is counter-intelligence to rational discussion.

Just like liberals are anything but liberal.

As long as you hold religion and sanctimonious ideology in consciousness, you cannot de-filter the view of life from which all your ideas flow, so you cannot possibly understand the full concepts of personal accountability and personal responsibility for your individual self.

Spare me the "kinder words will get you further..." cr*p, that's about as transparent and useless as prayer. My comments speak to reality of attack on Mamet's shift of paradigm - hypocritical and sanctimonious by others as pointed out.

Beware the person's motivations who seeks to be offended.

Had You Heard?
Johah wrote: "Clooney proclaimed not long ago, "Yes, I'm a liberal, and I'm sick of it being a bad word. " Have you heard that Clooney has chosen to give all of his current wealth and most of his future earnings to those in poverty, unlucky citizens, and still-on-the-dole citizens? No, I haven't heard that either. Hopefully, looney Clooney will do a film with Pastor Wright as his mentor and adviser. Yes, Looney, "liberal" is a bad word, much as "conservative" labels one in the opposite direction. You don't like it - give us a new one that fits better. Is "Progressive" a better one -- one that represents change - like change the meaning of the Constitution this week to meet our needs.

scooter
My,my,did we get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning sweetie??

There,there,dear-everythings going to be ok.(gently padding on top of head)

Here's your binky,now close your eyes & take a 'lil nap for mommy.

scooternyc no hypocrite?
Perfect! When leftists like Scooternyc aren't preening about their own supposed tolerance and refusal to judge others, they're castigating and moralizing about conservatives. Let's see now, what do you call someone who does the very thing he criticizes? Oh, yeah, a hypocrite.

Leftists would be a lot more tolerable if they weren't so darned smug.

scooternyc
I find attacks against "religious" people tiring. Unless these "religious" people are constantly pounding on your door and calling on your telephone and stopping you on the sidewalk, "religion" shouldn't bother you at all. Those who are non-religious, atheistic or humanistic have nothing to fear from religion so why do some continually attack those of faith? It proves the point that there is something more to this antagonism--perhaps a certain lack within those of no faith?

scooter
I actually appreciated your comments this morning.

I like idiosyncratic thinking (even when I don't agree) & I appreciate honest dissent.

I think a lot of (again, social?) conservatives are "against" dissent. Why? Is the true lesson of christianity conformity? That whole christian ideology & worldview is based on conforming your life (especailly your "morality") with some religious laws & stories concocted by nomadic jews wandering in a middle-eastern desert 2500 years ago. You have to give up a lot of individuality & reason & dissent to fit yourself into that box.

At any rate.....Here's to the dissenters & free-thinkers (such a horrible word to dull conformists!), "liberal" & "conservative" alike, at Townhall.

That is why I appreciate David Mamet.
That is why I appreciate Christopher Hitchens.
In fact, that is why I appreciate Jonah Goldberg.

We should remember how the news
is slanted from the recent reports of Gov. Elliot Spitzer's fall from grace. It took some reporters days to mention he was a Democrat. I bet he was very rarely labeled as a liberal.

Had he been a Rep., every sentence would have contained right-wing extremist Nazis radical neanderthal troglodyte troll hypocrit (the latter the left's most beloved epithet) conservative REPUBLICAN. Inboldface, in case anyone missed it.

I just received a copy of a magazine called RADAR that has an American map of every Rep. sexual misstep since forever. It came out too late to conver Spitzer as a Rep. and the Dem.'s latest scandal.

But a Dem. map would include Wilbur Mills, Ted Kennedy, Dan Crane and Gary Studds (sex with pages), Gary Hart, Gary Condit (must be the name), Wayne Hays, Mel Reynolds (pardoned by Clinton), Bill Clinton, Fredd Richmond, Brock Adams (accused of rape), Barny Frank (prostitution was run out of apartment), Gus savage, Daniel Inouye, Henry Cisneros (mistress on payroll), Judge James Barbuto (extoring sex from defendants), Kwami Kilpatrick, Jim McGreevy (homosexual sex harassment), Gov. Spitzer (protitution), and now the new NY State acting gov (multiple adulteries), Jim Bates, 2 Chicago aldermen (prostitution), Paul Patton, Allan Howe (prostitution), Neil Goldschmidt (statutory rape).
I think that's enough to prove sex scandals are more a Dem. aberration than anything close to Rep. criminality. For more go to Wikipedia.

scooternyc

My apologies if I somehow offended you. That wasn’t my intent or motivation. I was merely trying to point out the inconsistencies in your original posting.

You’ve read much into my words which I simply didn’t intend.



Reality
If Goldberg wants to be taken seriously, he shouldn't write farcical tales about liberals being fascists. It's widely believed to be the stupidest book
ever written. Reality rests in thoughtful liberals and conservatives, who base their opinions on truth.





my fav quote comes to mind this morning
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."--C.S. Lewis

I'm sure this will in some twisted way speak to the likes of scooternyc and Will, who really don't understand the Christian community-- the original disciples were an idiosyncratic bunch, as are today's varied adherents-- which is replete with dissent and debate. Frankly, that old saw about surrendering reason for faith is beyond tiresome.

For me, the above quote is emblematic of the liberal progressive.

scooternyc
Just curious. Do you recognize there being a difference between one who is "spiritual", but not "religious"?

scooternyc
You said:
"I've not encountered ONE religious person on this site EVER to my recall, that speaks of personal responsibility and accountability toward the end of minding their own business and living their lives at no cost to others."

I had a friend and colleague who often had alcohol on his breath while teaching classes. I "minded my own business". I heard rumors of unethical relationships with students. I "minded my own business".

This week his wife found him dead, hanging in their backyard. Why should I feel bad? Afterall, I "minded my own business".

Sorry, Scooter, I think I'm done with "minding my own business".

Boutte writes: "The fat boy who wrote.."

I think this is some kind of a record! Boutte totally destroyed any possibility of credibility or good taste in the FIRST FOUR WORDS of his/her post.


Jonah the gloating Philistine?

I hardly think that Goldberg is "lacking in or hostile or smugly indifferent to cultural values..." Actually, on the contrary, Goldberg is very in tune with "VALUES" which is something libs tend to destroy.



Taft
"It's widely believed to be the stupidest book
ever written. Reality rests in thoughtful liberals and conservatives, who base their opinions on truth."

Have you read the book or its critics? The book is based on undeniable facts the debunk the myth that fascism is right wing and link it instead to progressivism. Goldberg argues his case on those facts, not what's "widely believed to be".

Goldberg is not taken as seriously as he should be because he advocates free markets, free trade and free thought.

GradGirl
Can you tell me one reasoned Christian justification for Bush being a torture president?

Taft: Oh Pu-lease................!

It's the leftists such as yourself who refer to Pres. Bush as a "torture president."

But, that doesn't mean it's true... or even close to accurate!

Please, as soon as they come out with a vaccine for BDS, sign up for the clinical trials.





IN THE NOW
I'm never offended by anyone, it's a projection from others who enjoy being offended for personal reasons and gain, of which I don't care nor have shares in. Everyone has a right to their voice.

And once again, you negate the reality of my post by "attempting" to point out inconsistencies, of which there are none.

My position is not inconsistent when pointing out the sanctimonious nature of religious people, and/or yourself if you endorse such philosophy, utilized while moralizing behavior.

My "name calling" as you refer, is nothing more than reality spoken when those words are understood in application.

Pathetic - as noted by the religious inadequacy of celebrating the increased knowledge and shift of paradigm by Mamet.

Fascistic - those desiring a religious national invocation of life philosophy upon everyone.

Hypocritical - pretending to have have virtue of religiously rooted morals by which "name calling" is not considered moral or useful, then doing that behavior as evidenced by the blogs and threads.

Fraud - deception for personal gain. You're only a good person because fear of your god's retribution, not because being a good person is itself an upstanding reason to be good.

I don't hold myself up to such dogma of inconsistency.

I respect another's existence, I don't have to respect what another says at any point in life.

I have freedom of choice and defend other's to have the same freedom.

I seek not to infringe on the civil liberties of others.

I live my life at no cost to others.

Taft
>sigh<

Only one liberal progressive talking point?

And I can't seem to stretch my brain far enough this morning to discern any logical connection between my post and your response. Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee.


So, I get it that for you water-boarding equals torture; Guantanamo, in your moral equivalence, is somehow on the same plane as the Gulags, etc, etc, etc. I'm not interested in debating these issues with you, as it is your breed who will not use Reason.

But while you're constructing a demonized caricature of Bush (who I do think is flawed, by the way), you should probably look at his human aid record-- AIDS dollars to Africa is one major example.

Primus54
Primus54 writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 10:46 AM
scooternyc
"Just curious. Do you recognize there being a difference between one who is "spiritual", but not "religious"?"

No.

There is no such thing.

Any attempt to invoke the supernatural is not rooting one's self into reality.

It does not further your own accountability or responsibility of self to the self.

It does nothing to further the advancement of understanding personal choice and freedom.

It lends nothing of living your life at no cost to others.

Reality will always be the choices before you by which to choose; all choices are accountable, all action is response-ability to the choice.

Thanks for asking.

lonestarblues
I've read many opinions about the book by historians and others. Hitler, as I've noticed many on T.H have studied, killed liberals and fasicsm is not a part of liberalism. Far left communism is a form of totalitarianism though.

"Goldberg, who has no credentials beyond the right-wing nepotism that has enabled his career as a pundit, has drawn a kind of history in absurdly broad and comically wrongheaded strokes. It is not just history done badly, or mere revisionism. It’s a caricature of reality, like something from a comic-book alternative universe: Bizarro history."

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=jonah_goldbergs _bizarro_history

scooternyc
Are you a Vulcan?

scooter writes: "I have freedom of

choice and defend other's to have the same freedom.

"I seek not to infringe on the civil liberties of others."

Well, OBVIOUSLY you DO NOT!!!!





Mahatma-mama
Again, you miss the point.

Another's choices in life are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

You think because of your religiosity that they are, but they are not.

If the individual wishes to live a life of drink and die by such choice, it's not your business or mine.

Again, it's none of your business. Your motto should be "if that's how you want to live your life fine, but I'm not going to live mine that way".

Why are you so arrogant to think that your particular philosophy of life is supposed to be lived out by others.

It's not and you were responsible by not butting into someone else's business who did not ask for your support or help.

Anne
Obviously you don't understand what it means to have civil liberties. Look it up and have your own shift of paradigm.

scooternyc
"It does not further your own accountability or responsibility of self to the self."

You do realize that the worst atrocities in modern history were committed under ideologies that promoted responsibility to self above responsibility to community and kind?

Geeze Taft, exactly what credentials

do YOU have????


Leftists? LOL!
“Wrongturn writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 9:49 AM
scooternyc no hypocrite?
Perfect! When leftists like Scooternyc aren't preening about their own supposed tolerance and refusal to judge others, they're castigating and moralizing about conservatives. Let's see now, what do you call someone who does the very thing he criticizes? Oh, yeah, a hypocrite.

Leftists would be a lot more tolerable if they weren't so darned smug”

I didn’t say that I was moralizing your behavior – I’m not.

Apparently you can’t tell the difference between moralizing someone’s behavior and pointing out disagreement with the action or words.

You should learn this difference for yourself and ease your world up.

Taft,
you seem to assume that thinking Christians believe Bush to be a true Christian. As a systematic theologian, I would seriously dispute the assertion that Bush has, in fact, anything remotely resembling a genuine commitment to following Jesus' life principle of unselfish holy "agape" love (Luke 9:23). So, whether Bush is a "torture presedent" or not has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature or theological principles of Christianity that Bush continually chooses to ignore and violate.

scooternyc
So your philosophy of life is to be selfish, self-centered, and uncaring toward my fellow man?

And why are you giving advice at all? Why don't you "mind your own business"?

osthode
osthode writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 10:02 AM
scooternyc
“I find attacks against "religious" people tiring. Unless these "religious" people are constantly pounding on your door and calling on your telephone and stopping you on the sidewalk, "religion" shouldn't bother you at all. Those who are non-religious, atheistic or humanistic have nothing to fear from religion so why do some continually attack those of faith? It proves the point that there is something more to this antagonism--perhaps a certain lack within those of no faith?”

You are ignorant of the religious movement in this country and it’s historical attempts to thwart government by imposing its philosophical way of living upon the nation as a whole. It continues today within our court systems and clearly within this election.

Instead of keeping your religion private and out of politics you bring it up as a standard of moralizing other’s behavior.

When your arguments towards others behavior can be rooted in non-religious ideology, then you have a point to make and something to bring to the table.

Otherwise, the religiosity is constantly at work attempting to manipulate others behavior as decided by you as being “right”.

The tiresomeness of the discussion is attempting to reason with the illogical ideology of religion when speaking to individual freedoms and civil liberties.

It is, however, important to do so because of the preservation of our democracy and freedoms.

Taft
Well, if the American Prospect (which defines itself, in part, as "an authoritative magazine of liberal ideas") says Goldberg is wrong, then it must be so. Maybe you could widen your pool of sources a bit-- maybe read some actual history, check Goldberg's sources-- rather than just relying on a book review (seriously).

billybob
Clearly, you are the example that I reference toward the majority of ignorance of the religious.

Good for you. Thanks for revealing yourself so early in the game.

ColinCody
I hope you stick around and post more. : )

Political ideology has almost
nothing to do with great art.

David Mamet is a good (though not great, I feel) dramatists whose evolving political consciousness will not make him a better dramatist (or human being). I only bring this up as Jonah seems to imply David Mamet has "evolved" from a shift in political thinking as man & artist.

John Guare & Tony Kushner are every bit as good a dramatist as Mamet. But none of these can hold a candle to those 20th Century giants, Tennessee Williams & Eugene O'Neill. I don't think the phrase "greatest living dramatist" has any meaning, like it might have 50 years ago.

GradGirl
Good advice. But honestly, should I waist my time with someone who thinks skin heads and the kkk are liberals?

"Effect on his talent"
So being conservative can affect your talent? Excuse me?

I am sick of liberals who think that they own the arts. I have been an artist, musician, and conservative my entire life. And no, my paintings are not cutesy nature pictures.
But time and again I hear people say "how can you be a conservative and call yourself an artist?"

The liberal monopoly on the arts has lead to them being transformed from a celebration of truth and beauty and life into a celebration of all things ugly. They deny that truth and beauty even exist.

Conservatism is a philosophical worldview, not a personality type. Just because we want low taxes and understand that communism is evil does not preclude us from examining the world and expressing our observations in paintings, songs, or plays.

Liberals have brought us from paintings fascinated with Heaven, to paintings fascinated with excrement. It is no wonder that most conservatives would rather just avoid the whole thing.

scooternyc
In my experience, I've learned that name-calling and inappropriate behavior is free of political or social prejudice…it freely crosses the aisles and class spectrum. We’re all guilty. However, regardless of rationalization, it normally detracts from the intended message and usually indicates a weak and frustrated aptitude.

Mahatma

“Mahatma-mama writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 11:31 AM
scooternyc
So your philosophy of life is to be selfish, self-centered, and uncaring toward my fellow man?

Again, this business of “selfishness” is your religiosity speaking and not of coherence.

You believe that to be caring to one’s fellow man is to concern yourself with butting into his business of which it is none of yours.

"And why are you giving advice at all? Why don't you "mind your own business"?”

Mine is observation by which these threads are created for – the exchange of ideas and observations.

Get a clue – or at least an education. I understand the latest Pew Poll puts religious people at a disadvantage educationally, but must you be so forthcoming with your ineptitude.

scooternyc
What is the dividing line between phenomenal and neumenal? How do you determine where to draw the line? What do you place into each category?

BTW, I think you have the premise of Jonah's recent book backwards. I challenge you to actually read the book and report back to us (Predicted response: "I don't need to read that book, I already know....")

GradGirl
"Summary: On Glenn Beck, National Review Online editor-at-large Jonah Goldberg said: "I think one of the things that is decidedly fascistic, or at least just a bad idea, is looking for silver bullets. You know, when [Sen.] Barack Obama campaigns, he's basically saying, 'I'm a silver bullet. I'm going to solve all your problems just by electing me.' FDR, Hitler, all these guys, they basically said, 'All your problems can be solved.'

Have you read about WWII and the miraculous things FDR did to defeat Fascism? One of my favorites is a Man Called Intrepid. FDR, hated fascism and to put him in the same sentence as Hitler, is outright inconceivable.

Scooter
It amazes me how the qualities in others that drive us crazy are the ones we share with them. You speak against sanctimony sanctimoniously.

You condemn hypocrisy, without realizing that you are saying 1) hypocrisy is wrong, 2) you have the right to condemn others for hypocrisy, and 3) in doing so you commit hypocrisy by setting up a moral standard (not condemning others for their moral failings) and then violating it yourself.


scooternyc
Thank you for your answer.

If I understand your reply, your opinion is that there is no power or intelligence greater than your own?

So - in your reality - it there an objective behavioral "right & wrong"?


scooternyc
"You are ignorant of the religious movement in this country and it’s historical attempts to thwart government by imposing its philosophical way of living upon the nation as a whole. It continues today within our court systems and clearly within this election.

It is, however, important to do so because of the preservation of our democracy and freedoms."
------------
What kind of democracy exists in the absence of pre-existing values of the populace? Is democracy and end in itself? If two different groups of peoples, with distinct value systems establish democracies, will the democracies be identical and each place similar value on individual rights, etc.?

GreenDay
I am reading the book, I'm on page 289. While he has many, many observations by which I concur, he distorts it all by claiming to understand a "truth" by which his writing is being filtered. I look past it and read the historical inadequacies of the liberals in our world.

If your question seeks the agenda, state the agenda and discuss that, not some attempt to distract by defining terminology.

I've explained the ideas of freedom, choice, accountability and responsibility; your life at no cost to others.

What more do you need.

Taft
FDR's passion against fascism began when Hitler violated the non-aggression pact with Stalin. Prior to that the American left was isolationist and opposed joining the war in Europe.

You need to open your mind and look past the official MSM version of history.

Taft
Again, you're simply parroting American Prospect without researching the facts yourself. Your characterization of Goldberg's argument is reductive to the point of being juvenile (but while were at it, the Klan was historically connected to the Democrat party in the US...ever hear of Robert Byrd?).

But why bother doing the hard work of researching evidence and developing informed and intelligent opinions for yourself (which I concede may still differ radically from my own), when you've got liberal/progressive talking points to mimic.

which brings us back around to Mamet, who is being castigated by the left for daring to break with the party-line to think for himself... how diverse, how tolerant, how progressive...

Primus

“Primus54 writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 11:48 AM
scooternyc
Thank you for your answer.

If I understand your reply, your opinion is that there is no power or intelligence greater than your own?

So - in your reality - it there an objective behavioral "right & wrong"?”

If your attempt is to invoke a god or higher power – no, there is none. Claims to such have no evidence to fact and not worth discussing. It’s simply a philosophical view of life, albeit narrow, by which there are many in this world from which to choose.

Unless you fully comprehend the idea of personal accountability and responsibility, your life at no cost to others and personal freedom of choice, going down the right or wrong road is your further attempt to try and assimilate something for which you are incapable of doing as filtered through your religions ideology. It’s just a distraction.

You offer interesting posts to discuss, I enjoy that component whether you intend it respectful or not.

"it" = "is"
in my last post... sorry.

Taft, you crack me up!!!
Taft wrote: " FDR, hated fascism and to put him in the same sentence as Hitler, is outright inconceivable."

INCONCEIVABLE!!! (as Inigo Montoya from "The Princess Bride might say: 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.')
LOL


Anyway, you, like scooter, seem to have Jonah's book all confused. Different people (Liberals included) can have fascist tendencies and attributes without being identical. You can be a fascist without slaughtering 6 million Jews and 5 million other ethnic minorities.

scooter
I am very sympathetic to your ideas. I too believe that no man has the right to the fruits of another man's labor. I believe in freedom, choice, accountability and responsibility.

I also believe that we can choose to be generous with the fruits of our labor, and that in order for accountability and responsibility to be meaningful there must be a transcendent moral law. If you are only accountable and responsible to yourself, you have a clear conflict of interest.

Nobody on this earth is so impartial that he will never rationalize his own failings.

scooter writes: "Obviously you don't

understand what it means to have civil liberties."

Well, OBVIOUSLY, I DO know... It's the libs who want big government to take them away....


Check Michael's 2:43AM post.....




right or wrong
"Unless you fully comprehend the idea of personal accountability and responsibility, your life at no cost to others and personal freedom of choice, going down the right or wrong road is your further attempt to try and assimilate something for which you are incapable of doing as filtered through your religions ideology. It’s just a distraction. "
-----

So would you argue that fully comprehending personal accountability and responsibility is the right thing the wrong thing, or neither?

Cleverness, not so clever
“cleverness_of_me writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 11:43 AM
Scooter
It amazes me how the qualities in others that drive us crazy are the ones we share with them. You speak against sanctimony sanctimoniously.

You condemn hypocrisy, without realizing that you are saying 1) hypocrisy is wrong, 2) you have the right to condemn others for hypocrisy, and 3) in doing so you commit hypocrisy by setting up a moral standard (not condemning others for their moral failings) and then violating it yourself.”

I don’t say it’s wrong – that’s your projection. You say it’s wrong; I make the observation. Your “wrong” again is defined through the religious ideology, which is not coherent.

I condemn no one for anything, somehow you do though, and I’ve not ascribed to such moralizing.

I set no moral standards for anyone; it’s not my business. Clearly you either are not reading the posts or cherry picking for your own filter.

cleverness_of_me
If you like Tom Clansy, A man called Intrepid is the real stuff. FDR, was frustrated with our isolationists, but he helped Churchill in every-way he could, pushing the boundaries of lawfulness in the process. After the Battle of Britain, England was a sitting duck, so FDR sent over thousands of arms.


Thomas Sowell
"our greatest contemporary philosopher"?

I would agree that Sowell is one of the top three or so most exciting, incisive, and pithy social commentators around, but he's never claimed to be a philosopher.

scooternyc
writes: "I've explained the ideas of freedom, choice, accountability and responsibility; your life at no cost to others.

What more do you need."

-----

Where do those ideas come from? Where did they originate? What is their ultimate source? Where does the concept of freedom exist in the natural world?

You also wrote: "(Goldberg) distorts it all by claiming to understand a "truth" by which his writing is being filtered."

What is that "truth" and where does it come from?

GreenDay
Your right but labels are important. Liberalism in the extreme is a form of totalitarianism, as seen in the likes of Stalin. Fascism, is a different cup of tea.

fas·cism

'fa, from Latin fascism bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge

Cleverness
“‘cleverness_of_me writes: I also believe that we can choose to be generous with the fruits of our labor, and that in order for accountability and responsibility to be meaningful there must be a transcendent moral law. If you are only accountable and responsible to yourself, you have a clear conflict of interest.

Nobody on this earth is so impartial that he will never rationalize his own failings.”


You are accountable for your choices and responsible for those choices based on the reality presented to you.

Your reality is rooted in the choices that are placed before you. Choose one. In doing so you are accountable for the choice. You must then be response-able to the choice, which is your accountability.

You have the freedom of the choice. If this nation’s founding is worth anything, it’s that of your life at no cost to others – life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. No one defined in the Constitution or the Declaration what individual happiness is – nor should they – life is subjective in this way and up to each individual to take action toward it.

You want to create a “moral” law that has no basis in freedom and democracy. There is no such thing as a moral law. Just because you agree with a law doesn’t make it moral. If your subjective life decides it’s moral, bully for you, but that is not the case for everyone’s subjective pov in life.

Laws which seek consequences for choices made at a cost to others are laws that we desire.

Moral laws are contrived from religious dogma that has no place in our society.

All interests are self-interests.

There is no need to rationalize "failings", to do so is not being accountable.

Either you succeeded in your endeavor or you did not. The reasons for doing so or not doing so are irrelevant unless to start again at the same task. Now you're talking science. The expletive dare not spoken on religious sites.



scooternyc
My questions were sincere curiosity, however I did ask them in such a manner to ascertain if you would question my motivations or attempt to place me within a predetermined religious paradigm.

For your knowledge, I am not a member of any organized religion, nor do I automatically dismiss the beliefs of those who are.

I have been and seen the gamut. I have been devoutly Christian, I have been atheist, and I have been agnostic.

There are two things of which I am convinced:

I know that I am imperfect and that no man has claim on perfection.

And I know that any open-minded study of nature and the universe will reveal its perfection. Whether it is explained through our known physical laws (which is still crude relative to the length of our existence), or is still an unexplained mystery - I am convinced it is not accidental.

It is not my intention to change your mind. I recognize that there are some people who cannot believe in anything that they cannot scientifically or objectively test and measure.

All I suggest is that we all recognize the possibility that we could be wrong. Or, better yet, that future evidence may cause a change in opinion.

Taft
How recently was this book you are suggesting published? Sounds like something I'd like to read.

BTW, we still agree that Zeppelin rules, right? :-)

Anne
You want big government, as well. The religious claim constantly to end abortions, is bigger government.

Right now Planned Parenthood is not government funded - I agree with that choice but not the idea to limit a woman's choice. Do it with your own money. But give her as many options to choose without undue pressure from religion.

With limited options, women will have children for which they cannot afford - they go on welfare - more government spending of my dollars.

There are only so many adoptive parents out there or relatively healthy children for them to adopt. Contrary to your potential belief system, not every parent wants to be a martyr to owning a crack baby.

RU-486 is a great option, but religious people want to limit that option as well.

So the religious view is - if you get pregnant you can't have an abortion. You're stuck with my narrow view and control of your life.

This limited choice demands more government spending because a decent amount of women cannot afford to have a child.

Additionally, you're okay with the mental and emotional long-term suffering an unwanted child will endure.

You could utilize condoms as a means to reducing abortions, but you have so many hang ups about sex, who's having it, what age, etc. that this is also not a viable option.

You want to control teenagers behavior and it never works. The more we educate our children in responsibility and accountability the greater our chances of ending abortion.

Not by fear and intimidation, that only creates backlash and defiance. If the choice is still made then the consequence is raising the child.

Now we're back to forced child-rearing - unwanted child - potential lack of resources to raise the child- and on we go.

David Mamet and clarity.

David Mamet is just one of the many examples of someone aquiring the classification... a former leftist.

But sadly, these axamples are way too rare. This is mainly because of one huge and over-riding fact; the emotional component. The very same reason why holding a reasonable discussion with a true leftist is almost impossible.

And that is also why saying that a leftist is "brain-dead", is technically wrong. Factually... they are emotionally afflicted.

Because tragically, for a true leftist... seeing past their emotions, is always going to be a bridge too far.

But for some, however... there is real hope.

Primus
"It is not my intention to change your mind. I recognize that there are some people who cannot believe in anything that they cannot scientifically or objectively test and measure.

All I suggest is that we all recognize the possibility that we could be wrong. Or, better yet, that future evidence may cause a change in opinion."

Science is what has advanced our living, it's not a belief, it's a reality that has shaped our world in what we see & do. It's the best objective potential we have at our disposal at this point in time.

Wrong about what? Some deity? Even if there was one, you would have to prove that one bible was the word of it all and that this deity acutally said it.

Since we're no where near any of that "proof", why not live the life our framers of the Constitution sought; who wrote that we all have freedoms by which to decide the quality of our lives.

Stop the religiosity of moralizing behavior as if they think they know something for which they can't possibly know.

Moralizing is a biblical reference to deciding what behavior is right or wrong and the zeitgeist keeps changing the bar. So quit with the sanctimony and let people live their lives at no cost to you.

To Scooter
I suggest you rambling on too much to understand what the heck you're talking about...

Woody from Iowa

scottK
Yours is a brilliant observation.

For the "right" their religion is the disease of their own mind and emotion.

Both parties have their roots of this emotional component in victimization - someone else's fault.

If either or both parties started living out of that victimization, the power of it's voice could be amazing.


scooter, you just don't get it, do you?
.

Woody
Woody writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 12:42 PM
To Scooter
I suggest you rambling on too much to understand what the heck you're talking about...

Woody from Iowa"


I suggest you get off the carbs and perhaps you can have more patience in reading something worth reading.

Cleverness of me............
I am a multi-talented artist myself and a lifelong conservative like you. For reasons that defy logic, the left is trying to destroy all that is beautiful and true in all areas of creativity. I see nearly the entire realm of art today as in core rebellion against all that makes art genuinely worth our time, effort and interest. The loons and degenerates control virtually everything of consequence and try desperately to keep the least bit of sanity from ever raising its head to speak truth and blessing to our society.

I hope Mamet will someday grow into the type of person who will have something positive and genuinely beneficial to say in his plays. As an actor, I do not find those types of plays being produced now, but there is a great need for superb quality playwriting and screenwriting as I'm sure you know.

It all starts with the moral character and serious maturity of the artists. Without deep thinking, sane, morally insightful artists, there can be no great art created of any kind. We have so little true art today because the great majority of artists are traitors to their art forms and lousy, extremely superfiscial, immature human beings.

There is no law of nature or man that only the crazies can produce art. Those people are actually always essentially poor at whatever they do and we need to point out that rather obvious fact at every oportunity while encouraging high quality, entirely sane, conservative people to enter the arts. I do that a lot.

Anne
"Anne writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 12:43 PM
scooter, you just don't get it, do you?"

Sadly for you Anne, you don't get it.

You want it to be all about your personal religious philosophy demanded upon others to live.

You don't want others to have freedom.

You hate America.

Your religious actions in our courts are inherently Anti-American.

You don't understand the meaning of choice.

You don't understand civil liberties.

Abortion laws
Scooter wrote:
"The religious claim constantly to end abortions, is bigger government."
---

Not really. First, stopping abortions is all about doing the basic work of our constitution, that is, protecting the rights of the individual, especially the most helpless, vulnerable minority (that's what liberals espouse to care for the most).
Second, most anti-abortion folks are for Fedearlism, allowing individual states to decide.
Third, even if abortion were outlawed, the anti-abortion people see it simply as government doing it's duty to protect it's citizens, just as any other form of murder is outlawed. So what is the life is inside a woman, it's still a human being, given the chance to develop. It doesn't extend the right of government, in fact what it does is make individuals accountable and responsible for their actions and allows them to be free, just so long as they don't hurt others, including humans developing in a uterus.

ColinCody
Not sure if you've read Mamet's "True and False" book, but I recall being intrigued by his take on theater and writing. You might enjoy it.

One aspect that always stood out in his book was that of the writing to be of such quality that nothing beyond the words need be said. No "ums" "sighs" or affect noises to enhance a play's story.

It was quite fascinating and enjoyable.

Yo, Scooter
You know nothing about my "carbs" and even less about what you're talking about. I have NO patience for folks who are that full of themselves. Sorry.

Woody from Iowa

Someone's trying to take my job
scooternyc writes:
...
as the resident obnoxious know it all.
People like you just arent as qualified to know everything like I do.
Your just well not that smart. But I'm giving lessons on how to be an arrogant jackass on alternit Twosdays and Thrusdays.

Nice try but F- for you Scooter

Long Live the Republic.

John S. McCain, Master and Commander of my bathtub fleet.

Robert

Green Day
You want to subvert reality.

The reality is that women who don't want children or can't afford them are having abortions.

The end result of forced children unleashes the unwanted child and the child whose parent is not able to afford to raise it.

Forcing women to have children who cannot afford it drives them to welfare which is bigger government. That's the reality.

I'd rather fund the cost of an abortion than the lifetime of welfare and societal burden from an unwanted child.

This isn't difficult, unless you have a religious view of it. Then all the rationalizations and justifications come creeping out of the closet.

The religious on this issue don't want to admit to the destruction that their pro-life movement actually thrusts upon society.

And again, this anti-abortion movement is rooted in religion which has place in the political system when it comes to creating and enacting laws. It's inherently Anti-American to restrict the freedoms of others.

Your life at no cost to others.

How does the woman next door to me cost my life anything by her choice to have an abortion.

It doesn't.

If you're religious and want to moralize her behavior, have at it, but you don't have a right to restrict it or ask your government to intervene to limit the choice.

Woody
You'r right, I meant to refer to your level of education, clearly that was limited.

In fact
Woody, you may have found a match in Mahatma Mama as her level of education is also limited as announced by the recent Pew Research Poll.

http://religions.pewforum.org/

I realize that this might be too much rambling from Pew for you to read, but give it a shot.

Finally, it can't be said enough how much you lack intellect to not have a win for Mitt Romney, an outstanding candidate, over some supernatural believing Huckabee in your state.

From what I'm reading here
I'd say that YOU are the one with the limited education Scooter.

cleverness_of_me
I am not posting to you merely to stir the pot, but would you consider changing our "cleverness of me" moniker?

It sounds precious. It sounds like a 14-year-old girl buying "Hello, Kitty" merchandise dreamt it up.

It sounds like you're unctuously patting yourself on the back.

I do not mean to come off as mean-spirited here. There is just something about the handle that rubs me the wrong way. Imagine if I called myself "the sagacity of me" or "the common-sensicalness & enlightment of me".

You are WINKING to us in your handle & sneering to us in your posts that you are so CLEVER.

Hey Scooter
You're abundant arrogance only further proves my point. Sorry I can't be as elite as you profess yourself to be intellectually.

On the other hand, such references and put-downs only highlights your immaturity.

Oh, and sorry I'm not from your part of the world, where all such as you have risen to such a lofty and condescending station in life. Maybe you should grow your own food if you're that smart...

Woody from Iowa

scooternyc
You seem to have an inability to articulate your opinions without using words that indicate an all-inclusiveness on the people who disagree, intentional or otherwise.

Whether you realize or not, an objective review of your many posts would cause any reasonable person to observe that you illustrate exactly the same close-minded, rigid and arrogant condescension that you so rail against in "religious" people.

You are the "Yang" to the "Ying".

Thanks for playing...

Scooter
Ever heard of abstinence? It means not having sex, is that a new concept for you? It is also 100% effective! More adults should practice abstinence!
http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/ abstinence.html

It is what used to be taught in America b4 Liberal rants like you came along. Yes, abortion does cost the taxpayer money; it is not paid by the woman who can't afford it any more than the woman who can't afford the child! Then there are countless people who would be willing to adopt these babies also who cannot have children of their own, but if a woman is not married and cannot afford children or the MAN is not married they should not be having sex! Be responsible!

Also your comment on “carbs,” the recommendation is that our 50-55% of our total daily calories comes from Carbohydrates, simple and complex. Is this too much information for you?

Scooternyc/Greenday
Scooternyc:

It seems to me that you are sidestepping the actual issue at the heart of GreenDay’s post regarding abortion. He said that it is a valid exercise of government authority in protecting a person’s right to life. Your response was to claim that he wants to subvert reality, because “The reality is that women who don't want children or can't afford them are having abortions”. This has nothing to do with whether or not it should be legal. Theft and murder are undoubtedly happening somewhere in our country as I type this, but that doesn’t mean anyone who thinks that they should be illegal, or that preventing them is a valid exercise of governemnt power, is subverting reality. You need to address the actual issue GreenDay raised, which is that a fetus has an inalienable right to life, just as an adult does. If you don’t believe that, then fine, make your argument and your position on abortion would be coherent. But saying that people do have abortions doesn’t accomplish that. Likewise your assertion that it is “inherently Anti-American to restrict the freedoms of others.” You are begging the question. If abortion is the same as murder, then there is no freedom to do it in the first place, so a law prohibiting it is not restricting anyone’s freedom. If it isn’t murder, then you may be correct, but your response just avoided the point entirely.

Frobusto's Alter Ego writes:
"as the resident obnoxious know it all.
People like you just arent as qualified to know everything like I do.
Your just well not that smart. But I'm giving lessons on how to be an arrogant jackass on alternit Twosdays and Thrusdays."

Finally - after months and months and thousands of posts - we get "truth" from Frobusto!

str8t
Thanks for bring up the "A-word".

Be prepared for the onslaught of your narrow and Puritan view on "sex".

I mean, why can't you just "evolve"????

LOL!

Cheers!

Primus54
Sorry about the delay. A Man Called intrepid, by William Stevenson; copywright 1989. Thanks


scooter 12:43 PM post.

Thank you for your kind words.

But you haven't quite figured out how the right operates... and why it works.

Well, off to church.

Be well. :-)

I'm sorry, but how did the conversation
shift from David Mamet to "abstinence only" & carbs?

Str8t talker: if abstinence works for you, more power to you, but don't pawn your sexual philosophies off on the rest of us. Who you have sex with, religious preferences (or non-preferences), what types of food you put into your body, are personal choices.

Imposing sexual & religious beliefs onto the populace work much better under a theocratic system, not democracy. Somehow, the atheists & believers, blacks & whites, gays & straights, creative people & dullards, libs & cons, etc etc, have got to learn to LIVE WITH EACH OTHER.

By all means, if abstinence is your thing, have a happy sexless existence. I'll remember not to come onto you. But this nation is a plurality of races, philosophies, lives & lifestyles. I respect my passover-celebrating jewish boss & his hedonistic UCLA college son. That's the greatness of America.

Will
If you've been reading the comments, I don't see how you come to the conclusion you did about str8t's opinion on abstinence.

No matter...

Hopefully, there is one thing agnostics and "religious" people can agree.

Your liberties end where mine begin.

If you make choices in your life that adversely encroach on my liberty, you are in the "wrong".

Therefore, if people engage in acts that produce unwanted consequences - such as pregnancies or disease - no problem - as long as you don't ask me to pay for your choices.

scooternyc
From your posts, you seem like the type of person I have (unfortunately) encountered many times over the years:
*You require respect for your beliefs, & have none for others.
*You rail against Religion, thinking it is the "opiate for the masses", but have no real understanding either of religion or its vital place in Human existence. You can,as so many others, focus on its failings or inconsistencies, but every belief,construct or action by human beings reflects the internal struggle that ALL people share...the striving towards something better. If you think you are already perfect, & have nothing more to learn, you are the one who is fooling yourself. Your faith is Science is sadly misplaced...there are questions beyond the ability of science to answer. If our existence is soley due to randomness, then nothing we do as individuals or as a race really matters at all. One day, the Earth,the Sun even the Universe will pass away. To those (like you) who believe this, you are truly a person to be pitied...what a sad & empty existence you must have.
*You chastise others for name-calling...then indulge in it yourself. To explain this, you state that you can do this because you are 'right'. This kind of double-think is precisely whats wrong with the so-called 'liberals' in this country:one set of rules for you, another for the rest of us.
*You write that you're not costing anybody anything....Have you voted for dems before? If you have, then you have enabled these politicans to remove money from MY pocket (& many,many others)to fund the gov't programs that have wasted Trillions of dollars, & fostered race-hatred & division that have literally ruined millions of lives & is presently tearing our country apart.
This country cannot afford the lunacy that you & your fellow travellers espouse.
Prove you have an 'open-mind', & seriously reconsider your beliefs.....
....its called Evolution.

Scooter - such hubris! 1 of 2
One can deny the existence of God as their belief when the put their trust in the the so-called scientific "proof" of everything being because of natural laws, an outcome of neo-Darwinism teaching which has become the sacred third rail of teaching in our public 'skool' system today. After 50+ years of scientific involvement and an engineering career and trying to maintain an open/inquisitive mind in this area, I am convinced that there is little to support the naturalistic approach to our existence.

Actually, one only has to look around to see that there is too much order amid complexity to have these developments occur by accident. Just the possibility of life ever happening (by unbiased scientic people) is on the order of one chance in 10 to the 200th power - far, far beyond the range of impossibility which begins at 10 to the 50th power. Denial of your 'imaginary god in the sky' requires your disbelief of true scientific reality.

"Your life at no cost to others." is not a reality. If anyone assumes that they know more than any other, or assume the lack of education of others is just plain hubris. Any time one lives according to their own rules simply implies moral anarchy which will/could bring breakdown of society at large.

Last Ray of hope....

Scooter - such hubris! 2 of 2
Whether one thinks that "religious people" require a moral standard which impedes your lifestyle choices, or these same or similar standards are simply that which civilized society have found to lead to civility over centuries of experience, results in real freedoms for all and lead to a more stable life for our citizens. Freedom does not imply that you can just do your own thing! That can hurt you and society at large.

In retirement, I work in a church office and get to see the jetsam and flotsam (sp?) of society come in for emotional and financial help, most of which comes from very bad choices made in their lives. This is what so often happens when we fail to follow common-sense moral standards and instead do that which is determined as being good in our own eyes.

BTW, have a Happy Easter - a day that we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord who died for all our sins, and by His resurrection gives the promise of eternal life with Him. Believe me, your life both now and after you 'pass on' will be greatly improved by accepting His sacrifice in your stead.

Last Ray of hope.

The Boogie Man
From the posts here, particularly those of "Scooternyc", I would say that Liberals are TERRIFIED or religion!

But for some reason they support (in words and deeds) ISLAM, even though it is violently against the UNLIMITED PRIVLEGES Liberals so desire.

Primus... :)
You had it right when you said I would be lynched for my views. I’m not trying to force them on anyone.

There would be fewer welfare recipients and babies born out of wedlock though, if people practiced Abstinence. I wouldn't call myself Puritan, just Responsible! I taught my children abstinence. I'm happy to say they heeded my philosophy and are happily married by abstaining before marriage.

There are way too many diseases today and some that are antibiotic-resistant! How would you explain to a prospective spouse that you're sterile because you've contracted one that has left you sterile when they want children TOGETHER, not adopted?

Who's paying for all the medications and research? The TAXPAYER does and those who have insurance. No wonder insurance is exorbitant! People blame the doctors. Insurance companies make doctors charge more for their services to "net" their costs! If you don’t believe me, look at your insurance statement; what the doctor charges, what is “allowable” and then what is paid. That is how the system works; it is not straightforward.

Will, no worries, I wouldn’t take your offer! LOL

Greenhornet
As an atheist, I advocate not "atheism" in the public square, but, rather, religious neutrality.

How do you make the (illogical) leap to: libs & atheists are "terrified of religion" & support "Islam"?

You title your post "the boogie man"....yet you are using perceived scare tactics - "Islam" - just like zealots used to do in the 1950's with "communist".

Just who is the boogie man? Keep chritianity, islam, scientology, judaism & all other mythologies out of the government. Christianity's Book of Revelations has no business driving our foreign policy with Israel.

Yes, we want people to not steal, not kill, etc. But these are human principles - and need not invent a God to ascribe them to.

We need more Enlightenment philosophy: Locke & Tom Paine's "Common Sense" & Thomas Jefferson - and less religion directing our collective american mindset.

Scooter @12:43PM: Typical irrational lib
response…

“You want it to be all about your personal religious philosophy demanded upon others to live.”

How about just not wanting innocent babies being murdered?

“You don't want others to have freedom.” Really? Huh!

Actually, I very much want others to have freedom… such as, for example, unborn babies, and of course, freedom from government control over my health care! And that’s JUST for starters!!!

“… religious actions in our courts….?” You are joking, right? That is one of the biggest statements of horsefeathers that has been posted… except of course for halD!

If you’d like to take a minute or two and broaden your horizon and learn something… try this… http://www.faithofourfathers.net/

Of course, I know the meaning of choice. And I also know the meaning of “RESPONSIBILITY!” Something that the left is totally unaware!

I hate America and I don’t understand “civil liberties.” Yet another irrational, irresponsible, presumption… Wrong again!

I don't know why I bother.....
"Woody, you may have found a match in Mahatma Mama as her level of education is also limited as announced by the recent Pew Research Poll."

I rarely comment on blogs or read them because it seems like a useless enterprise. Those who write the articles on TH are identified and their qualifications listed.

The quote above is made by some individual I do not know and who does not know me.

And yet, he presumes to possess information about me.

What is the point?

I'd rather have REAL conversations with REAL people.

Anne
“How about just not wanting innocent babies being murdered?”

This is just your religious rhetoric. It’s not rational.

You are blinded by your irrational religious filter in life, while in this fog of contempt for those who don’t want to live their life as you “believe” they should, you want to impose your narrow view of life upon them.

You are ANTI-AMERICAN every time your behavior seeks to limit the choices, freedoms and civil liberties of others.

You fancy your desire about how someone else should live their life, but ultimately you are not going to control what someone else does with their life.

You were not anointed by anyone to be butting into an individual’s freedoms and rights to do with their body as they see fit.

You don’t want to face the reality that your narrow view of life, rooted in religion, is irrational and that it has no usefulness for anyone but you, the individual. Fine. Live it. Breathe it. Nevertheless, keep your rosaries off women’s ovaries. Butt out.

You weren’t given authority by anyone EVER to make decisions for another person. Never have. Never will.

Other comments
Those of you who wish to speak your religious rhetoric are not in any way restricted from doing so, here or anywhere else where private funds support the enterprise. No one cares if you do.

The problem none of you are understanding is that your civil liberties to express your religion end when you attempt to inflict this disease onto a greater society through the courts by seeking judicial solutions to endorse your narrow view of life.

Not everyone shares your idiot-ology. You are but one of thousands of religious ideologies, yet you somehow have it in your undeveloped minds that it's the "right" way to live.

If you wanted to have a decent intellectual dialogue you might have attempted to understand what it means to be personally responsible and accountable, while living your life at no cost to others and endorsing freedoms and choices.

Instead, you want to do just like the liberals want to do - CONTROL THE H*LL OUT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU KNOW SOMETHING FOR WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING.

Place your ideology up to scrutiny. Stick it under the microscope for further investigation.

But you don't because you know too much of it is rooted in bigotry, prejudice, control, manipulation and narrow thinking.

will -on atheism vs religious neutrality
Neutrality on religion is not prescribed in the First Amendment to the Constitution. The ill-founded "separation of church and state" concept of the USSC erroneously failed to consider the attitudes of our 'Founding Fathers' who were driven by the past attitudes of the European nations from which they or their immediate ancestors came, in which the state proscribed a specific state religion to be adhered to; i.e., Church of England, Roman Catholic in France, Luthern in Germany, etc.

As a Christian, the only one of the other religions that I give any credit to is Judaism from which Christianity sprung due to the disciples and followers of Jesus Christ, whom I believe was the promised Jewish Messiah. "He came unto His own, and they believed Him not."

I'm not pushing the government to uphold a specific sect of Christianity, and firmly don't believe that it would be correct to do. However, the basic concept of Judeo-Christian moral standards would provide a basis for maintaining a lawful reasoning society.

Last Ray of hope..

Scooter
To whom am I accountable?

LOL!
I LOVE all the comments that think I'm arrogant.

My ideas do not infringe on your rights, however, your ideologies infringe on others rights when attempted to indoctrinate or legislate from the ideology.

My worth and importance is unto myself, you have nothing to do with it so one might wonder why you see the posts as arrogant. Or do you not know what arrogant means?

Except perhaps that you don't like being challenged about your ideology and philosophy; you especially dislike the blunt manner in which it's presented.

Get yourself a violin and start playing the "I'm a victim" soliloquy you so often enjoy. Martyr yourself to the words of others.

However, if you dare, place the challenge upon yourself to dialogue about the concepts I've presented in your own personal life and place under the microscope what's been said that applies to your personal life and the choices you make to impede the rights and civil liberties of others.


Will thank Scooter...
for changing the subject to carbs and birth control practices.

Scooter wrote @ 12:44 PM: I suggest you get off the carbs & @ 1:01 PM: The end result of forced children unleashes the unwanted child and the child whose parent is not able to afford to raise it. Forcing women to have children who cannot afford it drives them to welfare which is bigger government. That's the reality. I'd rather fund the cost of an abortion than the lifetime of welfare and societal burden from an unwanted child.

Scooter
If there is no such thing as morality, then hypocrisy is not "wrong" only distasteful. You say that government "shouldn't" impose itself on a pregnant woman's "right to choose". You say a person "should" live without cost to others.

You whole philosophical worldview is full of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts"; you invoke a moral imperative while denying the existence of morality.

I think you need to check your assumptions, because your ideas are self-contradictory.

You won't like the answer
"cleverness_of_me writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 4:28 PM
Scooter
To whom am I accountable?"

To yourself first.

To a greater society for which your choices infringe on their individual civil liberties.

If you go down the road of religion, and your god, then you're off the track immediately because you cannot know an accountability toward a deity for which you have no observation of having affected it's life. So why bother.

However, this is the typical response from religious types - "you are accountable to god". Yeah, yeah, whatever - NEXT! It's an irrational arguement.

Cleverness
“cleverness_of_me writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 4:36 PM
Scooter
If there is no such thing as morality, then hypocrisy is not "wrong" only distasteful. You say that government "shouldn't" impose itself on a pregnant woman's "right to choose". You say a person "should" live without cost to others.

You whole philosophical worldview is full of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts"; you invoke a moral imperative while denying the existence of morality.

I think you need to check your assumptions, because your ideas are self-contradictory.”

It’s an interesting observation of your thought process then that seeks to believe that your life at a cost to others is okay & acceptable.

That’s inherently a liberal fascistic ideology.

The thoughts presented are not moralizing behavior in any capacity. Once again, moralizing is a religious invocation. Hypocrisy as distasteful is most probably agreed upon, but neither right or wrong, as is much of behavior we dislike - it's distasteful.

But "right" and "wrong" are invocations from religion, to once again control and manipulate behavior.

However, notice how "distasteful" is subjective. It holds no power to control others unless you seek to limit the behavior just because you dislike it.

So what, you're going to outlaw the eating of spinach because you dislike it? Simple analogy, but the point is made.

Master of the self-refuting post!
scooternyc writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 7:32 AM

"Your paradigm shifts the moment you awake every morning. Get a clue."

If you mean by paradigm the way one looks at things, this is the most assinine thing that I ever read.

"You shift your understanding every moment of your life."

Of the things that I already know and understand? Baloney!

"You don't believe in evolution so it's not surprising that you're probably not evolving."

Ah, a master mind-reader!

scooternyc writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 8:26 AM

"I don't hold up some "sanctimonious morality - christian charity" ideology rooted in nothing."

You posts are so littered with charred strawmen, I don't know which of them to aid.

"Religious people do, which by admission, many on this blog would agree they are highly religious."

That sentence isn't parsible - are you OK?

"Sorry, I'm not a hypocrite like religious people."

I doubt that you are sorry, and I also doubt that you aren't.

"People deserve respect for the sake of existence within humanity."

Another mouthful of dry oatmeal - what are you saying?

"They DON'T deserve respect for the mere ability to spout off their rhetoric, ideology, or anything that comes out of their mouths or deeds and actions observed."

But you, master, do - right?

"I live my life at no cost to others..."

Read John Donne lately? So, you use no resources, saving them all for others less fortunate. Even the place where you live was obtained at a cost to others because you displaced them. The food you eat is unavailable to others.

Master of the self-refuting post -2
"...and respect individual freedom of choice to speak, live your life as you desire at no cost to others."

There's that "cost" claim again - care to explain it in terms that Walter Williams would understand and approve of?

"I don't moralize people's behavior - it's not my business."

But you just did above - you criticized a whole class of people. I guess that makes you a hypocrite after all, doesn't it? Or maybe just a "fraud", to use you other moralizing term. When it's really none of your business, you will cease to post, right?

"Religion by it's very nature, does exactly that."

Hmm, hmm.

"Those of you who wish to speak your religious rhetoric are not in any way restricted from doing so, here or anywhere else where private funds support the enterprise. No one cares if you do."

Then you must be the self-referent "no one" who cares, from the length and frequency of your complaints.

"Apparently facing reality, the choices before you given the evidence of observation, doesn't seem to be within your purview."

You are also the master of the misplaced modifier - the choices are facing reality? Let me guess - you went to a public school.

Rich, just isn't
"But you, master, do - right?"

Did I EVER invoke or demand respect from any of my posts?

Let me help you - NO.

I made my statements and let them speak for themselves. I support them. I defend them. I request no support from others nor need it.

Strawmen? Whatever, just more rhetoric.

If you think you know something, take the challenge. Place your ideology to scrutiny from the concepts I've presented.

Personal accountability from personal choice by which to be able to respond(responsibility)and your choices in life are at no cost to others, as such, do not infringe on the rights of others.

Quit with your rhetoric, platitudes, distractions and vacuous nature and take the challenge.

Also Rich-less
Let me help you - criticizing behavior, words, deeds is NOT moralizing them.

If you want to spar with me at least come to the mat with an intellect of understanding the terminology you utilize.

Scooter
I did not say that it is OK for one person to live at the expense of another, just that you cannot deny the existence of morality and then say one shouldn't.

If you do not believe in right and wrong, then why are you filling up this comment board with your passionately written posts? Simply expressing your tastes?

You also failed to say to whom I will be accountable, and by what standard the accounting shall be done.

But given the level of disrespect you are showing those who disagree with you, I would say that you are absolutely convinced of your own inherent "rightness", and do not want to be held to account to an absolute moral standard for fear that you will fall short. The good news is that we all fall short, and God dealt with that at the cross.

Mamet came late to the party...
But any convert to rational thinking is always welcome. Especially one with talent for communication.

It actually proves that liberalism Can be cured.

That has to give us all a bit of hope for the future. :o)

Of course some cases like will, and scooter are probably too far gone.

'krystalbird'
"pb...is that for peanut butter?
...must be, for that gluey, sticky thinking process.
GWB (it has been proven) did not lie about his service record."
Get a grip.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
If you re-read what I wrote... (and, perhaps, read Mamet's article for some background, or even Goldberg's!)... I clearly say I 'disagreed' with Mamet's use of this rumor as 'fact.' I then go on to make my point.
I am new to TownHall & to this method of 'discussion.' But I can see by the tenor of this page that the comprehension level, among other things, dips s bit from early expectations.
BTW, the 'PB,' besides being my initials, stands for 'probity.' Look it up.
PB

Scooternyc's abortion stance
i find it interesting that for somebody that exalts choice, you seem to absolve the men and women who have made the choice to have unprotected sex, yet don't want or can't afford to have the child that is the fruit of their irresponsible act. Theirs is the ultimate selfish act.

You say: "Your life at no cost to others.", doesn't jive with your stance on abortion.

I'm not sure of the direction
of the above posts, but I will contribute some academics: morality is a cultures' agreed belief in right and wrong actions.
Ethics are the practice of those actions. Actions considered positive are ethical and those that violate those beliefs are unethical. All modern professions have written codes of ethics.
Law is the the codified order imposed on social disorder by authority. The history of mankind (and women) has been the acceptance of gods/kings who dictated early codes.
Elected people themselves making up their own laws for a nation state has occurred rarely in human history and is not chiseled in stone anywhere.
People take for granted that they can post on TH or Drudge or the Daily Krap, et. al.
But if the liberals take the White House and Congress, next year this time you could have the Fairness Doctrine, and some bureaucrat counting cons. blogs to make sure an equal number of contributions come from Lilly or Robert or another lefty hithchiker who ended up here for, heaven knows, purely entertainment purposes.

HOW can a Jew be a philistine?
Anne,

That comment we read about Jonah being a "Philistine" is a hoot. I can't even recall which of our moonbats posted it. A Philistine is a Palestinian. The Romans had no idea what to do with the word philistine so the "land of the Philistines" became known as Palestine when they occupied the place.

-Ray

ar·ro·gant [ árr?g?nt ]
"feeling or showing self-importance and contempt or disregard for others."

Get it, Scooter?

Or do you need me to draw you a picture?

cleverness_of_me
Your post went over scooter's head as did mine, even though he quoted parts back and we said the same things. You can't argue with one who asserts that it is immoral to moralize! Q.E.D.

Scooternyc: "Personal accountability from personal choice by which to be able to respond(responsibility)and your choices in life are at no cost to others, as such, do not infringe on the rights of others."

And he calls other vacuous?! There's not enough straw there to construct a zygote.

RikDergis
"you seem to absolve the men and women who have made the choice to have unprotected sex, yet don't want or can't afford to have the child that is the fruit of their irresponsible act. Theirs is the ultimate selfish act."

Great please show the comment, time/date stamp where I "absolved these people of their choice.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

re: abortion
per your post: " I'd rather fund the cost of an abortion than the lifetime of welfare and societal burden from an unwanted child."

Sounds to me like you would have the unborn child pay the price for the adults selfishness, as well as the taxpayer.






Wrat Wrangler: Good point! But I think

it was our resident idiot, scooter...

Who else :-)



cleverness
“I did not say that it is OK for one person to live at the expense of another, just that you cannot deny the existence of morality and then say one shouldn't.

If you do not believe in right and wrong, then why are you filling up this comment board with your passionately written posts? Simply expressing your tastes?

You also failed to say to whom I will be accountable, and by what standard the accounting shall be done.

But given the level of disrespect you are showing those who disagree with you, I would say that you are absolutely convinced of your own inherent "rightness", and do not want to be held to account to an absolute moral standard for fear that you will fall short. The good news is that we all fall short, and God dealt with that at the cross.”


Again, morality is a religious subjective term, it means nothing. Imposing the concept of morality only seeks to control another’s behavior by deeming it unacceptable and in the hopes of legislating against it.

The exchange of ideas is how a society evolves to greater levels of understanding and growth. Interesting that you would question this action.

I did speak directly to your accountability; perhaps you should read the post again. You are accountable to yourself first. To the greater society by which your choices infringe on their rights or civil liberties.

You seem to think that “respect” is something you are owed or that anyone is owed for just showing up – you are not. This is bestowed upon one another based on subjective criteria each person holds and decides to allocate.

In correction to a previous post of “respect your existence” upon reflection it should read I “acknowledge your existence” but I certainly don’t have to respect it or anything you say or do.

You continue to want to go down the road of “rightness” because you think there is a “right” and “wrong” but it's derived from religious doctrine. No such thing.

Again, more rhetoric
RikDergis writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 6:50
re: abortion
per your post: " I'd rather fund the cost of an abortion than the lifetime of welfare and societal burden from an unwanted child."

You didn't take the challenge to show where I absolved the individuals and their choices.

Now you go down another direction to distract from the challenge since you lied in your previous post.

Where did I say taxpayers should pay for this? Another lie.

I said that I don't want my tax dollars paying for abortion.

Additionally, I don't want unwanted children being thrust upon society and costing taxpayers money to raise it. Apparently you're okay with bigger government paying for such actions.

"Sounds to me like you would have the unborn child pay the price for the adults selfishness, as well as the taxpayer."

Yes, and it sounds like you would like to have a glob of cells develop into an unwanted child just so you can feel better.


Poor Anne
You can't compete in the arena of dialogue and exchange of ideas so you choose the liberal response of "the idiot".

Typical liberal response when losing an argument.

lol
poor lost wretch!

Primus
"Primus54 writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 6:21 PM
ar·ro·gant [ árr?g?nt ]
"feeling or showing self-importance and contempt or disregard for others."

Get it, Scooter?

Or do you need me to draw you a picture?"

How were you disregarded? Have I not responded to your posts directed my way? Yes.

Your claim of arrogance is only possible if you have subjected yourself and elevated my position. This is your doing, not mine.

I have sought nor spoken of such elevation. You projected it and then assimilated it. Perhaps because you like to victimize yourself and then blame the person from whom you've drawn this shame upon yourself.

"get it scooter? or do you need me to draw you a picture?" sounds like your contempt.

Careful the character of hypocrisy you espouse to others for you will show it of yourself.

Lost the argument, have you?
"RikDergis writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 7:10 PM
lol
poor lost wretch!"

Sounds like you're lost, pal.

Your posts have been revealed as lies and you have nothing to say.

Coward.


Respect
scooternyc: "{people] seem to think that “respect” is something you are owed or that anyone is owed for just showing up – you are not."

It is owed and makes society work - I will respect people from the start, but they must earn my trust. Their behavior will determine whether or not they retain my respect. Having no respect from the start will make you rude to strangers and anyone you just have met. Do you disrespect the grocery store cashier? If you don't teach your children to respect adults and others, I'd hate to meet them.

"This is bestowed upon one another based on subjective criteria each person holds and decides to allocate."

This statement is an argument for moral relativism, which is also self-refuting.

abortion
Abortion in and of itself is absolution from a poor choice! That's all I have to say.

renny
Morals and ethics are subjective and thus have no place in the public square. Often rooted in religion which one has freedom to practice and believe, but not to impose upon others or their behavior.

Laws are consequences to actions, which seek to infringe on the rights and civil liberties of others.

The only thing you need know is to not infringe on the rights or civil liberties of others. Pursue your own happiness, life and liberty, leave others alone. If you have a religous philosophy that doesn't agree with another's behavior, that's fine, don't behave as they do, but unless it infringes on your civil liberties you don't have a say in it.

If you are equating morals with one's distaste(a concept I was hopeful one blogger understood, only to reveal he/she didn't get it at all)for another's behavior - again - both are merely subjective and not of your concern or mine.

What is lawful, rooted in the concept of our Constitution which seeks to allow freedom of choice and uphold civil liberties, is all that is required of any individual.

The rest of life is up to your choices. Free to make them; accountable for them; responsible to them; at no cost to others.

name calling
Scooter did I once call you a name?

Whatever
"RikDergis writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 7:26 PM
abortion
Abortion in and of itself is absolution from a poor choice! That's all I have to say."

No, abortion is a choice to the cessation of one's progeny developing.

Is that ALL you have to say, really? The world should be so fortunate were it to be so.

Scooter
I had to read many of your posts to see what all this commotion is about, mainly because most of your posts are filled with flippant, arrogant diatribe.

My question is;
Just where in our Constitution do you find abortion listed as a civil liberty?

You are confused
“It is owed and makes society work” - I will respect people from the start, but they must earn my trust. Their behavior will determine whether or not they retain my respect. Having no respect from the start will make you rude to strangers and anyone you just have met. Do you disrespect the grocery store cashier? If you don't teach your children to respect adults and others, I'd hate to meet them.

"This is bestowed upon one another based on subjective criteria each person holds and decides to allocate."

This statement is an argument for moral relativism, which is also self-refuting.”

You are mistaken. Respect upon others is based on your personal criteria. Much like trust.

If you choose to live your life of just dolling out respect to others, feel free to do so, no one will stop you. Interesting that you just give your respect away and think yourself good for doing so.

Inferring that EVERYONE NEEDS to do this in order for society to “work” is cr*p. More rhetoric about everyone needs to get along, blah, blah, blah; just like religious ideology.

Acknowledgement of others interacting in your life to affect is all that is needed as it supports reality of choices before you. Polite is societal decorum that is desired but not required. Live in New York and you'll soon discover this to be true.

Again, it's still subjective.

Rude is just another in the litany of subjective ideas you carry. Then, of course, you will defend your position by stating that a great many people agree with you as though that’s a credential for anything.

Lots of people thought the earth was flat and clearly they were wrong. It’s as vacuous as prayer.

You don’t want to face the reality that your view of life is subjective from your filter and has no credibility when it comes to infringing on the civil liberties of others or forced behavior of or from others.


My Opine
My question is;
Just where in our Constitution do you find abortion listed as a civil liberty?"

The civil liberty is in the freedom of the choice; to choose, not the subject of the choice. Read the decision.

No one deems it right or wrong, merely that you have the choice and freedom to decide, what lives or doesn't live within your body.

If you think something living in your body has rights, then why not cancer? Why not tumors? These are living organisms just like the fetus.

The fetus is no more a viable mass of cells within the initial stages of pregnancy then cancer or tumors are in development. Yet you want to give individual rights to this mass of cells.

So why not extend these rights to tumors and cancers? Oncologists then are as "sinful" as abortion doctors.

Why would you think it's okay for your subjective narrow philosophy of life to be imposed on others free choices?

Do you ever ask yourself why you insist on limiting another person's choice? Why is it that everyone has to believe as you do? Why do they have to live like you do?

If it's at no cost to you, why do you care?

If you think it's at a cost to you, then you have a lot of explaining to do since it's privately funded. Unlike Faith Based Initiatives.

minky
"Did I miss anything?"

Only your brain and logic.

Pray and perhaps you'll receive it.

I'm sorry
I appologize for calling you a poor wretch. Reviewing some of your wrintings I agree with you on a great number of things.

Controversy at Columbia
Posted by Scooternyc on Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:50:07 PM

Great Global Warming Swindle Religion and God are NOT Great!
Posted by Scooternyc on Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:49:41 PM

ENOUGH!
Posted by Scooternyc on Sunday, December 31, 2006 8:22:06 AM

Indoctrination is abuse!
Posted by Scooternyc on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:01:27 PM

Ripping on Rippa!
Posted by Scooternyc on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:24:30 AM

Rangel Wrangles!
Posted by Scooternyc on Monday, November 20, 2006 9:41:16 AM

Do it and shut up about it!
Posted by Scooternyc on Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:09:12 PM

A Voice of Reason!
Posted by Scooternyc on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:41:47 AM

The Obama Drama - How Barack Creates The "Swoon" Factor
Posted by Scooternyc on Saturday, November 04, 2006 11:42:11 AM

"Game, Set, Match" The Unmasking of WMD
Posted by Scooternyc on Saturday, November 04, 2006 11:21:02 AM

Martyr is as Martyr does
Posted by Scooternyc on Friday, November 03, 2006 4:52:29 PM

More Left Gay Bashing
Posted by Scooternyc on Friday, November 03, 2006 11:30:41 AM

Thank you Mr.West
Posted by Scooternyc on Friday, November 03, 2006 10:39:57 AM

Just appears that we don't agree on abortion. Have a nice day!

Abortion is murder.. and murder of an

innocent child.... And that is the end of it.

You think it's okay, then you're totally and devoid of morals and ethics.





Scooter
I asked a simple question, which you evaded and went into an elaborate verbal tap dance to lay a smoke screen.

Your personal opinion is just as good as that Liberal Judge's opinion.
Neither are contained in our Constitution as a right.
How many States voted to ratify that Judge's arbitrary decission?

How do Liberals who find it so hard to understand rights that are spelled out clearly in our Constitution find it so easy to locate rights that do not exist?

MyOpine
Are you also known as, myopine2?

Cancel the trip to France
"...a Mona Lisa of moronic imbecility."

What?! You mean she's a liberal? Oh no, I will never look at her the same again.

aDNA
For a short time I used myopine2

And I apologize for critiquing your ugly Blog format. I was unaware that had been forced upon all the Blogs.

And I still have not been able to decide whether you are a liberal or Conservative.

"At no cost to you..."
"At no cost to you..."

"At no cost to you..."

"At no cost to you..."

Sheesh, Scooter. You and this "no cost to you" need to get a room, for goodness' sake...

When I am bad, I am horrid
My Opine,

I am really, really sorry about that scrape.

I thought you were a Cuban Operative! I am serious. I was very intimidated by a stranger saying, "I know you value my opinion."

My blog is taken directly from "therealcuba.com," a dissident website.

Anyway, I am sorry I did not recognize MyOpine is myopine2.



scooternyc
Your omission and misuse of quotation marks makes it hard to see who is talking. But that's expected from someone who has no respect for others. ;-)

Your rambling posts are still littered with the bodies of straw men. Other than the fact that you hate and mischaracterize religion, what's your point and why are you still here moralizing about not moralizing?

BTW, your argument says that it's OK for me, not even knowing you, to say that you and your mother are both ignorant jerks not worth of the time of day. Prove that you are, and that I should respect you enough even to read tyour stupid, arrogant, and vacuous posts.

;-)

The Romans were only the weapon.
Gibson was right. We ALL killed Jesus. Our sins as a race required His sacrifice. THAT'S why He's called the Lamb of God. God sacrifice His own Son for OUR sins, the ultimate scapegoat.

"The Jew" did NOT kill Him either. SOME false Jews, the Scribes, Pharisees and Saduccees conspired to kill Him as He threatened their religious monopoly and Herod Antipas' (even viler than Herod the Great) tin pot monarchy.

THAT'S why they had to seize him in the middle of the night while the town slept. They rigged a mob of losers to demand that Pilate order His execution. The majority of the common people were already very much on His side.

It was the railroad job to end all travesties of justice, but to serve God's Plan it was also quite necessary. There were no clean hands among the High Priests or Herod's court. Pilate was more of a patsy than anything else. Read his biography. He was an able soldier and better politician who had the foul luck to be governor of Judea and the wrong time in history.

-Ray

Another nagging thought...
I wonder what Cartaphilis has been up for the last 2,000 years?

-Ray

so...
you religious types must be reaching levels of excitement that cannot be described on this blog, at the site of this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldne ws.html?in_article_id=540453&in_page_id=1811

Rich D.
You have zero credibility and about as much coherence in your posts.

You have been revealed as a liar on more than one occasion on this thread alone.

Why don't you just slither off to your liberal friends and enjoy the abuse of children in the Philippines while espousing the great love of your supernatural deity and narrow view of thinking and living.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldne ws.html?in_article_id=540453&in_page_id=1811

Primus
"Primus54 writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 8:53 PM
"At no cost to you..."
"At no cost to you..."

"At no cost to you..."

"At no cost to you..."

Sheesh, Scooter. You and this "no cost to you" need to get a room, for goodness' sake.."

Seems you don't get the concept as such that it had to be repeated in various posts in response to yourself and others.

Even now you don't get it, mainly because you live your life at a cost to others - their freedoms, their choices, their civil liberties.


MyOpine
“MyOpine writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 8:20 PM
Scooter
I asked a simple question, which you evaded and went into an elaborate verbal tap dance to lay a smoke screen.

Your personal opinion is just as good as that Liberal Judge's opinion.
Neither are contained in our Constitution as a right.
How many States voted to ratify that Judge's arbitrary decission?

How do Liberals who find it so hard to understand rights that are spelled out clearly in our Constitution find it so easy to locate rights that do not exist?”

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not as stupid as this post of yours implies.

I did answer the question.

Clearly you have no understanding of civil liberties for which our Constitution is drawn.

As such, you are unable to apply its concepts to the simple decision made by the Supreme Court regarding abortion.

No one can save you from your reality of the inability to understand the Constitution and it’s foundations and applications.

Again, you want to evade the reality that you want your narrow view of life imposed on others and their behavior.

That you are perfectly fine with absconding the civil liberties of others.

That your distaste for their behavior should be legislated in favor of your own religious ideology.

That your behavior is focused on manipulation and control of others.

But that’s okay, you just keep focusing on me, my writings and posts since it helps you distract yourself from the reality of yourself.

Poor Poor Anne
“Anne writes: Saturday, March, 22, 2008 8:14 PM
Abortion is murder.. and murder of an innocent child.... And that is the end of it.

You think it's okay, then you're totally and devoid of morals and ethics”

No, it’s not murder of anything but a mass of cells no more than that of cancer in the body. You want to moralize behavior and then be judge and jury on that behavior for your own self-interests.

Fortunately you don’t have that right to impose it as you seethe with anger at not being able to control another’s choices.

Oh! Oh! She said I’m totally devoid of morals and ethics! Oh!

It might be said by some that I have more foundations of morals and ethics as I do not infringe on the civil liberties of others; that I do not infringe on personal choices and freedoms; that I live my life at no cost to others; that I do not moralize other’s choices or behaviors.

You couldn’t possibly understand this, as you’re too busy minding everyone else’s business and trying to silence the victimization from within yourself that oozes from your life and stultifies your development.

What a tragedy you have made of the life you have been given.

RikDergis
I appreciate your gesture of apology, but there is no need as you believe as you believe and are entitled to those beliefs and statements, along with the freedom to express them.

If you agree with so much that I've written, perhaps you will reconsider then that your view of abortion may be subjective and the desire to limit a woman's choice, while unacceptable to you, infringes on her rights and civil liberties to make the choice.

Your philosophical religious view of this subject is your own and nothing more - your own view.

You don't have to get abortions or participate in them.

You don't have to fund them.

You don't have to like them.

Much like you don't have to attend liberal rallies for the vacuous Obama.

You don't have to eat spinach.

You don't have to live your life according to liberals.



By all means, dislike and have distaste all you like.

Just don't infringe on the rights of others to make choices for themselves.

Choices that they deem just as worthwhile as you deem your own decisions for your own life, to direct it as you desire.

Your own version of the pursuit of happiness.






Scooter
When you reply to my post I must insist you reply to my words exclusively.

When you reply to your own fantasy you are playing with your own words.
VERBALLY MASTURBATING IN PUBLIC TO BE PRECISE!

MyOpine
"When you reply to my post I must insist you reply to my words exclusively."

Get over yourself

Somehow you think yourself "entitled" to something for which you are not.


scooternyc
you were a mass of cells that some wish the doctors would have mistaken for a TUMOR!
As you stated, there is no difference.
Happy Easter! May you find Christ today!