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Wednesday, January 30, 2008
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
We Were Warned
by Jonah Goldberg
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At a briefing for conservative journalists before the State of the Union address, White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten said President Bush isn't wistful about the close of his presidency and doesn't foresee a day when he will pine to be back in the Oval Office. Chuckles broke out in the room at the perhaps unintentional comparison to Hillary Clinton's surrogate in chief, who - as with everything else in his life - has decided to make this election year all about him.

This got me thinking. Bush came into office promising to be the un-Clinton. And in many ways - good and bad - he stayed true to that promise. But as Bush opened the final chapter of his presidency Monday night, the similarities between his tenure and his predecessor's seem to have finally eclipsed the differences.

Despite his relative popularity, President Clinton was largely a disaster for his party. He campaigned as a "different kind of Democrat" and helped marginalize the "progressive" wing of his party. During his term, Democrats lost control of both houses of Congress. Clinton's "third way" philosophy and triangulating tactics kept his approval ratings high but at the expense of moving the country to the right on various social and economic issues. Ronald Reagan would have proudly notched Clinton's signature accomplishments - welfare reform and passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement - on his six-guns. And he would have been giddy to proclaim, "The era of big government is over," as Clinton did in his 1996 State of the Union address.

Now look at Bush's tenure. He ran in 2000 as a "different kind of Republican." And just as Clinton moved rightward on race and big-government liberalism, Bush tacked leftward toward the center on race and small-government conservatism. In a bipartisan deal with Ted Kennedy, he federalized education policy - something even Richard Nixon opposed. (Nixon loved big government, for the record.)

Substantively, Bush has some abiding conservative accomplishments on judicial appointments and tax cuts. But rhetorically, his compassionate conservatism reversed a generation-long stance on the need to curtail the ambitions of government, just as Clinton's New Democrat rhetoric abdicated liberalism's decades-long campaign for a European-style welfare state. Bush in effect conceded the liberal complaint that small government was objectively hardhearted, while Clinton conceded the conservative complaint that orthodox liberalism was too utopian.

For Bush, the true measure of good governance wasn't liberating the American people from an over-weaning welfare state. Rather, activist government became the very definition of good government. And with such ideological markers in place, it was inevitable that government would expand and the ostensible conservatives in Congress would disintegrate into a gaggle of self-serving appropriators.

Indeed, since 1999, the federal budget has expanded by more than $1 trillion. And while Republicans, now in the minority, suddenly claim a newfound hatred for pork-barrel spending, nobody thinks twice about the fact that the GOP oversaw the largest expansion of the government since the Great Society. Monday night, Bush talked a big game about empowering and liberating the American people. But the most appropriate response to such assurances is, "Now you tell us?"

Bush's speech marked the beginning of the home stretch of the first back-to-back eight-year presidencies since 1824. So the hunger for "change" on both sides of the ideological aisle shouldn't be much of a surprise.

But that desire for change is also a product of ideological confusion on the left and the right. Clinton left office insisting that he'd restored liberalism in America, but in reality he bequeathed a confused mishmash of ill-formed ideas, slogans and hatreds. President Bush is winding down his presidency much the same way, talking about limited government, personal liberty and spending restraint, but he's left his party's troops scattered across the battlefield, with no overarching strategy and an awful lot of friendly fire.

Rush Limbaugh, for example, promises that if either John McCain or Mike Huckabee gets the nomination, it will "destroy the Republican Party." The Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan replies that, "This is absurd. George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, by which I mean he sundered it, broke its constituent pieces apart and set them against each other. He did this on spending, the size of government, war, the ability to prosecute war, immigration and other issues."

I'm sympathetic to both positions. Limbaugh is right that Huckabee and McCain might lead the party further from its limited-government roots. Noonan is right that Bush let the horse out of the barn long ago. But both complaints overlook a simple fact: We were warned. Bush and Clinton promised to be different kinds of leaders. And they delivered.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Jonah does make Ron Paul look inviting.
Paul's wrong about WW3, but when he is good, he is very, very good.

I'm voting for Paul in the primary. I hope he'll be a Goldwater who will inspire a Reagan to rise 16 years from now.

I may disagree
With Ron Paul with some of his comments, but I have found more to agree with him on than disagree.
I cannot say that about the liberals running as republican front runners.

Not over till the fat lady sings

Excellent column!
Well said in every way.

The only way the GOP -- and the country -- has a chance at recovery is if Romney is elected, and lives up to his campaign promises. I don't trust McCain to do anything but serve his own self-interests -- whatever thay are, the guy's so bizarre and self-serving -- and angle for the coronation as Emperor. He's an anti-Constitution megalomaniac who wants the laurel wreath.

With a couple of exceptions, Bush has been a disaster, and in retrospect probably not much better than his opponents would have been. At least if one of them had won, we may have more quickly gotten by the evident neccessity of wading through another Carteresque Democrat disaster administration, by now be putting it behind us, and the GOP may have awakened to the fact that they need to rediscover their conservative roots.

Ah, well, we can't roll back the clock.


Nicely stated Goldberg
I only wish there had been more genuine and sober assessments of Bush by conservatives over the last seven years. The poisonous two party political system has created way too many apologists and not enough independent honest unbiased evaluations of our leaders.
I am ever mystified about the 34% who tenaciously maintain that Bush is doing a great job. Who are you people, and what is your reasoning?

Me too
The Republican Party is in desperate need of a back-to-basics tutorial on what it should stand for. Ron Paul is the only candidate who will perform that task authentically.

At this point, whether RP wins or not is really unimportant. His clean message is all that matters, and I aim to do whatever I can to help him send that message.

The craven, cynical, perverted, crooked, win-at-all-costs parasites who populate the Establishment of the G.O.P. have thoroughly defiled the fundamental conservative principles that Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan took so much trouble to put in place. A punch in the nose is in order, and supporting Ron Paul is about as close as I can get to delivering one without breaking the law.

Go Ron Paul!

campagnolo
True conservatives are not fooled. The White House and both parties in Congress have
arrogantly ignored our "save America" pleas.

They consider our tax dollars as belonging to them...they decide how our money should be spent...or wasted.

I'm convinced we need to build a third, and maybe even a fourth, reputable political party to send the present devious bunch a "farewell" message.

Nice column but factually
incorrect. Jonah is like the Lamocrats giving credit to Clinton for welfare reform. He vetoed the bill twice before finally signing it after it reached his desk in a veto proof majority.

Clinton really had nothing to do with the reform other than opposing it and then taking credit for it when it proved to be popular.

Ron Paul?
Who's that? I think you are talking about Pat Paulson, who ran for President back in the '60's, I believe. Though he is now deceased, he probably has a better chance of being elected than Ron Paul.
Funny, ain't it, how the Republicans must be in a constant self-hating, self-diagnostic mode. The reason why President Bush has not been sucessful as he COULD have been is his abadonment of Conservative principles regarding domestic policies, trying to make deals with the double-dealing democrats who (naturally) stabbed him in the back at the first--and every--opportunity. Only his steadfst response to islamic terrorists saves him from total failure...but the divisive dems have to overturn every scintilla of decency in their vicious,partisan quest for control. The President hasn't "brought America down in the eyes of the World", it was the dems & their pals in the drive-by media that acted like a propaganda wing for America's enemies...the lies & deceits the dems have wrought during the Bush Admin. won't be forgotten. Dems can rant & rave all they want, but the fact is at the end of the day, their policies don't work, and the race/gender/class warfare that fuels their base will only be destructive to the country. If you dems have any love for our country, then for God's sake stop trying to destroy it for political gain.

The only principles you can compromise
--
...are the ones you profess to begin with.

Bubba compromised on his "Socialist Party A" excuse for a set of principles.

Bush II compromised on his conservatism.

What have any of the "frontrunner" RINOs - Romney, Huckabee, and McCain - got to compromise on?

Their "Socialist Party B" credentials?

More and more reason to vote for Ron Paul.

At least he's starting from a "hard" conservative benchmark, and is willing to make commitments that cause "Liberals" to choke and spasm like the strangulating weasels they are.

--

On the contrary
Ron Paul should drop out of the race.

Fact-Checking the State of the Union

NPR-Did President Bush get all his facts straight during his State of the Union speech? As with most political addresses, the president’s assertions left plenty of room to quibble.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/fact-checking-the- state-of-the-union-speech


Is this the same Goldberg....
Is this the same Jonah Goldberg that wrote the pathetically error filled book callng liberals fascists? If so he appears a bit schizophrenic....meaning to say this essay above actually sounds decently logical. Maybe his 'booktour' slapped some reality in his face as he realized folks on the left and right are very attuned to most of the "-ism's" in our vernacular. Bush leaves a failed leader...objectively Clinton left with a whole hell of alot more accomplished.

Talk about "Hiding in plain sight"
The Democrats and Republican's are nothing more than two wings of the same bird flying in the wrong direction.

More and more Americans are starting to recognize this, which is why Dr Paul gain's new supporters daily, and much needed campaign contributions I might add!

Personally, I can't wait to see what happens when a reinvigorated mass turns it's sights on the likes of Reed, McCain, Pelosi and the grand-daddy of America's moral decline, Ted Kennedy.

It's time to clean the barn....and throw out the trash!

There is one big difference
between the two administrations. Clinton, until recently, was loved and worshiped by libs, despite Nafta and welfare reform. Bush is detested by conservatives for abandoning our core principles. MaCain, Guiliani, Huckabee and Romney are horses that never would have gotten out of the barn if Bush had corralled the wayward RINOs during his terms.

At the very least we would have had a choice in this election. Sorry, Ron Paul is not a viable choice.

acceptreality
RP says exactly the right things; he's still on the ballot(s); he's got plenty of money, and he's still running. He's "viable."

rhatican
"RP says exactly the right things; he's still on the ballot(s); he's got plenty of money, and he's still running. He's "viable.""

Maybe it's time you accepted reality.

buzzkat
Maybe it's time you countered my statement with something other than a personal attack.

BrianR
"The only way the GOP -- and the country -- has a chance at recovery is if Romney is elected, and lives up to his campaign promises. "

On the contrary. The only way the GOP -- and the country -- has a chance at recovery is to endure 4 years of Hillary-Pelosi-Reid. Today's spoiled, whiny Americans need to be sucker punched, b*tch slapped, and butt kicked before they see the light.

Jonah deserves a fine cigar.
Nice analysis.

That's right Robert,
we did appreciate McCain being slimed. We still do.

As for Bush. We conservatives have turned on Bush because he has turned on our conservative principles. (Stay with me now; I understand how you could get lost in a discussion of principles).
Bush's actions gave us runaway spending, fostered immigration anxiety and nurtured the RINO branch of the GOP.

The only way to re-establish our conservative soul is for the nation to suffer a Dem administration again.


I am going ....
to find out how one goes about writing a persons name on a ballot ..... wish we had the option of 'None of the Above'.

Acceptreality,
surely you know better than to do what you did at 9:08.

Robert,
I understand how you can despise principles. As a lib you were never exposed to any.

Please understand that there is another difference between you (a rabid lib) and me (a staunch conservative). I expect that some day you will respect a difference of opinion and argue from a position of reason and principle.

By your statements, you libs think conservatives are evil and must be eradicated. How exclusionary and divisive. Perhaps you should reconsider the tenets of your liberal religion; the ones that cherish diverse thought.

BrianR,
are you still out there? A quickie off subject - are you into motorcycles? There's a reason for the question.

The "Blinding Light" syndrome
has the masses in awe, awaiting the floutist to lead them over the brink.
Independent thought built this country and is the only thing that can save it.
LOOK AWAY FROM THE LIGHT!!
If we are reduced to sheep following the media's versions of what we should want and who of them is a kook we will continue to get the liars and power junkies.
Fred didn't want to run and was cajoled into it. Then, when not enough voters had independently conservative mindsets, cut his losses and quit.
If all the so-called conservatives would look away from the glare of the Libpublicans and Flippublicans, break out their pens and write in Fred maybe we would get a choice better than between which flip-flopper is least offensive.

Robolib,
I wonder how you would say it 'unkindly'.

Once again you demonstrate the darkness of your soul.

4 the lackwit
The facts behind the linkage between social liberalism/leftism and fascism were uncovered and have been explicated for the last 20 years by the Israeli socialist political historian Zeev Sternhell. A short summary of his work by David Ramsey Steele can be found here:


http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm

Welfare by any other name
"For Bush, the true measure of good governance wasn't liberating the American people from an over-weaning welfare state."

Tell that to Halliberton and Black Water who get 10 times the going public sector rates and have guaranteed profits. Bush created a new earmark hungry welfare state.

When a Halliberton truck got a flat, they just left it. why not Bush would take our tax money and buy them a new one.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/deyoung.html

You Gotta Vote
Please do NOT stay home. You must vote. You do not have to vote for Hillybama or McAmnesty. There are always other parties and people on the ballot. You could write in Joe Oliva. The important votes are for House and Senate seats. Conservatives MUST win seats in the House. The House is where things get done. It was the passage of H.R. 4437 in Dec.05 that sparked the illegal alien protest marches and moved this issue to the front burner. It was the Senate that tried to jam amnesty down our throats. The D's that won seats in '06 were conservatives running on enforcement platforms. One of them, Heath Shuler D-NC, introduced the SAVE Act. Call, e-mail, or write your Congressman and urge support of this legislation. Enforcement is what Americans want, not amnesty.


I don't think Hillary is stupid enough to step in front of this bus. McCain is.

Amnesty vs Amnesty?


There are millions of us who usually vote GOP who WILL NOT vote for McCain, for a variety of reasons. For me it's the amnesty issue. Whatever the issue is, it is a bright line we will not cross. No amount of Hillaryscare, intimidation, name-calling or cajoling will get us to vote for McCain. He's in the wrong party. He is a liberal. I don't vote for liberals. When he loses, don't blame us, we tried to warn you. Flipping off half your voters is not a winning strategy.

Taft,
Perhaps you could save the taxpayers some money by going out and fixing those flats....under enemy fire. Perhaps your life is worth a truck.

Halliburton: Before you embarrass yourself further, please name one other company that bid on the work in Iraq.

IS THIS WHAT CHANGE MEANS?

.....I agree with Peggy that Bush Jr has severely damaged if not killed the Republican Party but the drift to the Left began when his Daddy broke his "no new taxes" promise ...Bush Jr just put the drift into overdrive .....COLOSSUS

rhatican
Not a personal attack, merely a statement of FACT. Ron Paul consistently has received single digit percentage returns, wiping up the rear, when the voters have voted. He is about as relevant as, and has less chance of winning, than John Edwards. Any contrary protestations by the Paulbots simply prove them to be the blind fools they are. Harold Stassen anyone?

in other words
they are all fascists.
Right, Jonah? you ignorant lying fool

I'm a staunch
conservative republican. I stuck with President Bush through 9/11, and Afghanistan, was somewhat dis-believing on his insistance that Iraq be invaded to save America, and was aghast at his free-spending ways under the guise of "compassionate conservatism." But, I stuck with him until mid-2007 when it became undeniably true that he had no intention to secure our borders despite the fact that illegal aliens were flowing threw in unprecedented numbers and wreaking havoc on American society. His strong support of the McCain-Kennedy "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" bill was a loser. And he backed it. Still does.

I must now face the fact that the President I backed twice is a failed president who, as Peggy Noonan said, tore asunder the Republican Party. I wish McCain had won in 2000. We, as a nation, would've been far better off if for no other reason than the 'War on Terror' would have been waged in a far more competent manner.

If Ron Paul's message...
--
...is so much a political impossibility for the Republican Party, why are you RINO scumbuckets (like vic) whining that he "...should drop out of the race," hm?

Your vision of the GOP as "Socialist Party B" is as completely bankrupt (and bullpuckey'd) as it is, what hope have you of Republican viability when "Socialist Party A" is selling the pure-quill deadly drug of government-as-Santa-Claus in competition?

Little hint, RINOs. You're never going to win a race to the bottom with born-in-the-muck slimesuckers like Obama and Billary.

It took Goldwater voicing the conservative message (no matter how that lying bastich LBJ managed to sucker the voters in the wake of Kennedy's canonization) to sensitize the public to the message at the heart of Ronald Reagan's campaign in 1980.

It's going to take Ron Paul *NOW* to give the Republican Party back the heart and brains and spine you shiftless, worthless RINOs have been doing everything in your neocon power to destroy.

--

Bush was never a real conservative ...
We were just told that over and over by liberals (who for some reason still think it) and pundits such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who continued to be Bush's most conspicuous cheerleaders and defenders even after he began to govern like LBJ or Jimmy Carter.

Limbaugh would have more credibility about who he is going to support (or not support) in the future if he admits how completely wrong he was about George Bush the last seven+ years. Such a confession of error would take some courage, just like it would have taken some courage (and real principles) to have done battle with him when it could have made a difference.

Nice column and I think you HAVE been critical of and pointed out the big-spending error of George Bush's "conservative" ways for a while now.

For the record, I also think many conservatives will one day admit that "we" were wrong on supporting constant war and occupation in the middle east and "nation building." But this will take about 20 or 30 years, just like our belated understanding that Vietnam really was a tragic waste. President Bush not only expanded government exponentially domestically, he exapanded our international empire committments exponentially as well.

And I don't think we are any "safer." Plus, I fear those who want to make us live in fear (to keep their power).






acceptreality
If the soldier was in danger, then of course leave the truck.

How many were allowed to bid, accept?

"Before bombs even began falling on Baghdad, the Bush administration awarded a secret, no-bid contract to repair and operate Iraq’s oil infrastructure -- worth up to $7 billion -- to Kellog Brown & Root (KBR), a subsidiary of Halliburton, a Houston-based oil services and construction company. "

acceptreality
More info on the flat tire.

" When things went wrong, KBR simply scrapped expensive gear: The company dumped 50,000 pounds of nails in the desert because they were too short, and left the Army no choice but to set fire to a supply truck that had a flat tire. "They did not have the proper wrench to change the tire," an Iraq vet named Richard Murphy told investigators, "so the decision was made to torch the truck."

Answer for you
campagnolo writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 1:39 AM
Nicely stated Goldberg
I only wish there had been more genuine and sober assessments of Bush by conservatives over the last seven years. The poisonous two party political system has created way too many apologists and not enough independent honest unbiased evaluations of our leaders.
I am ever mystified about the 34% who tenaciously maintain that Bush is doing a great job. Who are you people, and what is your reasoning?
Name a president who has had as many sticks stuck through his bicycle spokes who delivered even one campaign promise.
(Clinton doesn't count-he's a media darling).
There will be no honest evaluation of President Bush until the change of the guard happens in congress and the old media.
I have as many issues with GWB as the next guy, but congress holds the purse strings, so they get far more credit (good and bad) for the condition of the country and the political winds that are blowing. GWB's ratings have ALWAYS been twice congresses', which are the lowest for the longest in history.
No sitting congressman has any credibility criticizing GWB, especially when they don't criticize- they accuse.
This nation is headed for a reckoning, and the boomers are going to get slapped for their feckless and selfish dismissal of principle for party. I too want fistfights on the floor of congress and an end to bi-partisan screwing of the American citizen.

LOL
Robert writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 9:41 AM
I say this kindly
acceptreality writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 9:34 AM ...

you wouldnt know principles if they came up and hit you in the face.

People on the far right have "principles" of rhetoric...that is why most of them are all for the war in Iraq and not many are serving...and folks like you dont want to pay for it.

Robert
--------------
You're supposedly a bird Captain that spends large portions of his (taxpayer financed) days posting negatively on a conservative web site. Exactly what principles are you trying to display?

Bill in Montgomery
Vietnam was not a waste.
We didn't lose- loser democrats quit, and then spent the next 4 decades calling it a mistake.
You believe in global warming too, don't you.

Bush derangement syndrome
I have it. Thought the man was great in 2000. Now I think he makes Clinton looks like a saint. Face it folks, the Bush family has no honor. From his father's no knew taxes, to W, they will lie when it suits them and slime to boot. If it walks like a duck, well -- then admit the truth, that this Prez is a sleaze. And move on.

So what is your point, Taft?
.. that KBR got the contract and this, alone,is proof of graft?

...that war greats some incredible opportunities for loss or error?

...that we should risk life and limb to salvage a truck?

Fivo

Speaking "negatively" to wantonly enjoy chaos is one thing, to sober up a drunken neocon admin is another thing. Thanks Robert.

As one neocon said about his experience in Iraq, "I was mugged by reality."

The real problem is the looney left
The Democrat Party has moved so far to the left it has left a huge void in the center and center-left. Politicians always gravitate to such a void because that's what they do.

Reagan was a leader, not a politician. Since his Presidency ended in 1989, all the Republicans have had to offer is a bunch of politicians.

And look how much they now resemble the Democrats. Ronald Reagan, RIP...

Mostly we supported Bush
because we believed he could win. And we believed he was a good guy, down to earth. I remember hearing all the time that he wasn't conservative enough.

I think as part of the collective shower America wanted to take as Clinton left The Office, what most interested us was electing someone that wouldn't be such a skirt-chasing frat boy and a liar to boot!

We wanted CHANGE!

Unfortunately Bush's stubbornness and incompetence have brought a different strain of shame to the country and we seek change again.

If the mood of the country is for change, I'd rather have McCain than Hillary or Obama.

Ph.D., J.D., we have a problem
Ph.D., J.D. writes: "Bush derangement syndrome - I have it... I think he makes Clinton looks like a saint."

If that's what you really think, BDS is the least of your problems.

Buzzkat, Chopper John
Buzzkat, your comment to me actually reflects a theme I also subscribe to and have written many times. As a matter of fact, I've themed some of the essays at my blog along those same lines, so we're in accord, pard.

The GOP has simnply become the Dem-Lite Party. Very problematic.


Chopper John, I don't know dilch about motorcycles, sorry. I figured you did: your handle.

But I'm open to a question anyway, if it's still worth asking me.


BrianR, etc. think Gore as Prez on 9/11
McCain's not Satan. Or Hillary, who I REALLY think expects coronation. She and Bill have obviously been believing their own vaunted press!

Whatever disaster Bush has been, I can't imagine where we'd be with Gore in office on 9/11. Have you forgotten what our choices were?

I actually had a friend say to me after 9/11 (and incidentally before we went into Afghanistan) "What if we just didn't respond?" As if that were a real strategy. I was so shocked I didn't know what to say, esp. b/c my past association with this person had led me to think he was conservative. I do think that's characteristic of the mentality that treats the terrorist threat as a diplomatic or law enforcement problem.

Which reminds me of Obama--so shocked at the Clintonian attacks that he can't respond effectively. (Any who dare, read Maureen Dowd's column in NYT today....) How naive is this guy? What will happen to our country if he's elected? You think that might embolden the terrorists? Much?

Go ahead and sit it out if McCain is nominated. Cede to the Dems and feel proud of your accomplishment. And when AlQaeda gets a foothold in Pakistan with all their nukes, get ready for some real fireworks. Hope you enjoy the show!

momlady
Your post was dead on!

BrianR,
just checking. There's a poster on a bike site I visit frequently who signs on 'BrianR'. Kinda scary now, knowing there're two of you. By the way, while I am a motorcycle fiend, my handle actually derives from my other sin, helicopters. It's what I did back in the day.

Looks like I get to vote 3rd party!
Hillary will champion and sign into law all liberal causes. McCain will champion some but not all liberal causes, but will sign into law just about everything the Democrats send to him. Thus there is little practical difference in domestic policy between Juan and Hillary, save the rhetoric. Regarding foreign policy, Juan will probably increase spending even more on yet another war (or two).

Besides, the massive expansion of government under Bush and the GOP along with the Fed's orgy of printing has set us up for a major correction. Let Hillary take the blame for this. And then maybe actual conservatives will run in 2012.

I look forward to voting for Ron Paul, the only candidate dedicated to limited government, in my primary and for the Libertarian candidate in the general election. If this delivers Hillary the presidency, I could care less. At least I'll be able to sleep at night.

momlady, if I read you accurately...
you write: "Go ahead and sit it out if McCain is nominated. Cede to the Dems... and when AlQaeda gets a foothold in Pakistan with all their nukes, get ready for some real fireworks. Hope you enjoy the show!"

Are you saying a Hillary or Obama in the White House could usher in the Apocalypse of the Revelation? A rather interesting thought; hmmm...

Sj Doc
So I am a RINO now because I don't back that insane idiot RP and I think he aught to get out of the race.

LOL, you paulbots just can handle reality can you?

phileo
No intention of invoking the Apocalypse of the Revelation!

I just think that, Hillary's refusal to apologize for her Iraq vote aside, either Dem in office will embolden the terrorists.

And I think Obama in particular is so naive that there would almost certainly be turmoil in Pakistan that could see us experiencing something that makes 9/11 look--I hate to even type this--like a warm-up activity.

I don't even argue for McCain based on polls showing he could win against Hillary or Obama. I honestly believe he's the best candidate in either party to face the greatest threat of our times. I actually believe the War on Terror is just that. However badly Bush has articulated and fought this war I think it's real and it's imperative that we win. McCain is our best hope for that.

His "warts" as a candidate pale by comparison to this, what I consider most important, truth.

The Republican Establishment Slides Left
As what is left of the Republican Party inches leftward I am left feeling less and less "Republican". I would hate to see a splintering of the two party system. But it looks increasingly like somewhere down the line that is going to happen. Some are saying that a third party would be disastrous. Initially perhaps, but long-term I believe it is going to become increasingly difficulty to convince some of us to vote on the basis of "my party, good or bad, vote Republican no matter if its candidate is a scoundrel."

Momlady
Bush has done a couple of things right, but I'm sorry, the war is not, to me, the only issue in this country. I do strongly support the war, btw, but I'm MORE concerned about the direction this country's taking away from the principles for which it's supposed to stand, and Bush has been pretty much a disaster on that front.

NCLB, Scrips for Seniors, this absurd "tax rebate", failing to push for Social Security reform, scamnesty, on and on and on. This stuff's all pure liberalism.

His accomplishments: tax cuts, the war, two good SCOTUS appointments after the Harriet Meiers whiffer.

Overall, pretty poor performance, which is why his approval's down to about 26%. I haven't seen approval numbers that low since Carter.

So you can imagine how underwhelmed I am at the prospect of the election of another GOP drone who's even WORSE than Bush on almost every issue.

Sorry; no sale.

Nope, Chop John
That wasn't me. Scary, huh!

LOL

Re your handle, I'd always previously assumed it was the helos; the bike thing had occurred to me the other day as an afterthought.


PS, Momlady
If the war is the only issue of substance for you, I imagine you'd have no problem voting for Joe Lieberman?


neoconned
Neocons like momlady seem to believe that *refraining* from invading sovereign muslim countries, coupled with an ever increasing subsidization of Israel's armed forces, *emboldens* terrorists, whereas invading and occupying muslim lands ensures our safety. It's as disheartening as it is baffling to have to bear witness to such nonsense.

The real fireworks show will ensue shortly after McCain is sworn in and begins lobbing nukes toward the Middle East. Something tells me it's that sort of policy which emboldens Islamic whackos to detonate nukes in our cities.

Vote for McCain and...enjoy the show!

Juan McCain infers
too much from my comments.

I never said the War on Terror as waged by Bush was the right strategy.

If anything, like some other posters here, I think we may have been better off with McCain in 2000, knowing what we know now. But that's not how the game is played.

I'm simply making the argument against refusing to vote for McCain, should he indeed become the Rep. nominee. If all these "true conservatives" stay home, they help to usher in liberals who tend to view the terror problem as a diplomatic or law enforcement problem that the UN could probably solve for us. And, yes, I think that emboldens terrorists!


RUSH

"Rush Limbaugh, for example, promises that if either John McCain or Mike Huckabee gets the nomination, it will "destroy the Republican Party."

If anyone is going to destroy the R party it will be Rush himself. His constant, even pathological penchant for lying, has given the party a warped sense of the real world. See list below for small sampling.

"And here are some examples of misstatements, lies, and distortions from The Rush Limbaugh Show:"

Limbaugh lied about 9-11 Commission report

Limbaugh falsely claimed "Nobody ever said there was" a connection between Iraq, 9-11 attacks

Limbaugh misrepresented Duelfer report on Iraqi WMDs

Limbaugh lied about AIDS

Limbaugh overstated the minimum wage

Limbaugh made false claims about the Democratic National Convention

Limbaugh distorted the Kyoto Protocol

Limbaugh falsely accused Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA)

Limbaugh claimed Clintons are funding Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Limbaugh lied to defend Swift Boat Vets

Limbaugh misstated Pew report on journalists

Limbaugh mischaracterized the federal deficit

Limbaugh misstated federal education spending

Limbaugh lied about Bush's false uranium claim

momlady
you write "And when AlQaeda gets a foothold in Pakistan with all their nukes, get ready for some real fireworks. Hope you enjoy the show!"

That's already happened, read the following:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/0 00/013/457rzpvh.asp

Bush and Rummy diverted forces and focus off the mission in Afghanistan towards Iraq. Yet another of the brobdingnagian mistakes of this administration.
Also, the Bush has handed 5 Billion dollars over to Musharraf with little or no result from the investment. So the problem you state already exists and happened under the Bush administration. Another example of them pouring money at a problem and getting no intended results (see "No child left behind" as another great example of this...the Dept of Education budget was expanded by 50 Billion dollars under Bushco.)




George Bush
did destroy the Republican party alright, but McCain will put the final nail in the coffin.

Bush and Goldberg
Jonah, you're completely wrong about Bush. Bush isn't a conservative. He's a left winger. What conservative (what American, for that matter) would sign McCain-Feingold?

Jonah, you're also dead wrong on your book about "Liberal Fascism". There will not be a "nanny-state" or goody-goody smiley face of fascim. There can never be. Fascism, like Communism always produces despotism. It can be no other way.

This isn't my argument. It's Hayak's. With Socialism, only the worst rise to the top by its very nature.

Think Bush is on the level? Please. Either the war on terror is a fake or he should be immediately be replaced because he doesn't have the competence to control our borders. There is no other alternative. We're at war or we're not.

It's those that will put their principles (IF Bush has principles) second to their ambition that succeed in such an atmosphere.

The front runners in BOTH parties don't seem to be too concerned with the above.

Unfortunately, the American voter doesn't seem to either. Either we're going European, where we left to form this country, or the adults have left the building a long, long, time ago.

Taft re Limbaugh
Without some documentation or proof, this is all nothing but your opinion.

Regarding your second quote, if you can call it that, putting quotation marks around "Nobody ever said there was" and then putting in the rest of the sentence outside the quotation marks means you added on the last part yourself. Not the best way to appear credible, Taft.

p
Great link. I especially liked this point.

"Fascism was a movement with its roots primarily in the left. Its leaders and initiators were secular-minded, highly progressive intellectuals, hard-headed haters of existing society and especially of its most bourgeois aspects."

A well researched piece of work that examines what happened without the preconceived notions so common today. I really liked his discussion of how facism was redefined by the socialists of the day here in the U.S. and elsewhere.

BrianR
I did not say the war was the ONLY substantive issue for me. I said it was the greatest threat of our times. I said that McCain's "warts" as a candidate pale in comparison to his strengths on this issue, thus implying that there are indeed other issues.

I don't see any evidence that Romney or Huckabee are any better equipped to deal with other issues we face as a nation. I don't have evidence to suggest they are more "pure" conservatives than McCain. I certainly do not see evidence that they have superior strength to McCain on defense. Therefore McCain is the logical choice for me as a Republican voter.

The main point I wish to make here is that all the "true conservatives" sitting it out in November should McCain be the Republican nominee could be helping to elect a Democrat. I would like to persuade perhaps some of these people that given the times this is a luxurious approach to voting.

BTW, Joe Lieberman isn't running for president.

Vic, acceptreality, buzzkat, etc.
If Ron Paul has no chance, is "wiping up the rear" and amounts to little more than a joke (in your opinion), why do spend so much time knocking him down and flinging - the way monkeys do their feces - personal insults at his supporters (e.g., "Paulbots," etc.)?

You may just be morons. (Vic, that's your deal, right? I'll bet you only come here, to TH, after you've watched "300" for the 600th time and fantasized about dropping a nuke on Baghdad. Keep looking over your shoulder for another terrorist, pal.)

If that is so, if you are the mental cripples I suspect you are, I apologize for saying harsh things here. It's never appropriate to abuse the handicapped. However, as impaired as you are, you really shouldn't be mucking up a perfectly good blog with your pointless, vicious rants. Why don't you read a few good books about Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan and then say your piece(s)?

If RP is as inconsequential as you think he is, then just shut up - he's bound to go away. On the other hand, if his message scares you, you are 1) completely ignorant of what conservatism means and/or 2) so devoted to the misadventure in Iraq you have lost your minds and can no longer see how much damage has been done by George W. Bush's empire-building. Pitiful.

Have a nice day.

No! We were attacked
Everyone seems to leave out the fact President Bush had to clean up the mess Bill Clinton boy's left us in because they couldn't connect the dot's. Is it President Bush's fault, Bill Clinton thinks so. Bush, being a war time President had more then Bill Clinton ever had to deal with. The battle was all up hill for Bush from the very beginning. Tom Daschle saw to that holding up Homeland Security some nine months. From there on, every Democrat saw that what Tom Daschle did, signaled the right time to start attacking the war in Iraq. Sure, Bush tried to reach across the isle but what good did that do. The biggest mistake Bush made was letting Ted Kennedy in on the Education of this country. Can we say that the Bush Presidency might have gone differently if we hadn't been attacked. You bet it would. The Democrats saw to it early in Bush's Presidency that his ratings would never be favorable with their endless propaganda against the war and the economy.

Taft is simply so dillusional in his
opinions that he is starting to believe them himself. Here's the deal Taft; provide some facts and we can have a discussion. Otherwise sit down and muffle you discharge.

M Sederoff
I got a little sloppy, sure enough. Where I start the quotation, it should go to the end of the rest of that post. These claims are backed up with proof, btw.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200406210002

There are also prominent R who think talk radio in general is bad, like Trent Lott.

Mediamatters
Taft writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 1:50 PM
M Sederoff
I got a little sloppy, sure enough. Where I start the quotation, it should go to the end of the rest of that post. These claims are backed up with proof, btw.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200406210002

There are also prominent R who think talk radio in general is bad, like Trent Lott.
-------------
That you would reference MOVEON2 as a reference shows your intent, mate. Please, KOS is calling and they want their playbook back.

Yep, momlady, you're right
Us conservatives sitting it out could, indeed, mean electing a Democrat. That would be exactly the point. As a matter of fact, I'll go so far as to say that if we do sit it out, it virtually assures a Democrat victory. Which again, is exactly the point.

When I, as a conservative, see no substantive difference between the Dem and the GOP, well then I have no dog in that race. And that's a HUGE problem, because it means the GOP has lost its way and is in the process of becoming the Dem-Lite Party.

I live in California where that process is almost complete, and I'll tell you, it is NOT a pretty sight.

I'd rather let the Dems win, in the hope that the national GOP will wake up and smell the coffee, rather than participate in the rest of the country turning into Leftifornia.

The GOP sure as hell didn't learn a thing from the butt-kicking it took last year. Apparently the 2X4 upside the head wasn't enough; they may need a 4X6.

Well, I'll be happy to supply the lumber.

Reminds me of...
BrianR writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 1:09 AM
Excellent column!
Well said in every way.

The only way the GOP -- and the country -- has a chance at recovery is if Romney is elected, and lives up to his campaign promises. I don't trust McCain to do anything but serve his own self-interests -- whatever thay are, the guy's so bizarre and self-serving -- and angle for the coronation as Emperor. He's an anti-Constitution megalomaniac who wants the laurel wreath.

With a couple of exceptions, Bush has been a disaster, and in retrospect probably not much better than his opponents would have been. At least if one of them had won, we may have more quickly gotten by the evident neccessity of wading through another Carteresque Democrat disaster administration, by now be putting it behind us, and the GOP may have awakened to the fact that they need to rediscover their conservative roots.

Ah, well, we can't roll back the clock.

Carter was elected only once, where on the other hand you voted for this guy twice, an administration that will go done as the most incompetent in history (Horse judge to lead FEMA anyone?) period. Ask yourself who is more foolish the fool or the one who follows him? (Thank you Obiwan)

campagnolo
writes, "Bush and Rummy diverted forces and focus off the mission in Afghanistan towards Iraq. Yet another of the brobdingnagian mistakes of this administration.
Also, the Bush has handed 5 Billion dollars over to Musharraf with little or no result from the investment. So the problem you state already exists and happened under the Bush administration."

If it were only so simple. Long before the Taliban took control of Afghanistan, their base was in Waziristan, the probable location of OBL and the most desolate place on the planet. Clinton bears much more blame than Bush but, it goes much farther back than even him.

"(see "No child left behind" as another great example of this...the Dept of Education budget was expanded by 50 Billion dollars under Bushco.)"

I can see why liberals are salivating over their presumed choices this fall. Another 100 Billion under Clinton or Obama if they are lucky or they can settle for another 50B under McCain.

Al Qaeda gaining a foothold in Pakistan? lol. Where have you been hiding momlady? That is where they came from. I will hold my nose and vote for the repub this fall but, I will NOT like it.

Fivo
Fair enough, but could you give me proof of why Media Matters is not a credible source?

Maverick, you forgot one more of Bubba's
legacies; the 'win-at-all-cost', never ending campaign. The libs have adopted it as their primary tactic for obtaining or retaining power. They lie about the record, lie about 'evil' intentions, take every opportunity to game the system.

Not so long ago it would have been unthinkable to back stab a sitting president in war time, especially a war that the back stabbers voted for. The traitors have become obsessed with finding a political advantage in every situation, including risking the security of this country.

While I know that there is a special place in hell for traitors, I would enjoy for them to experience a few previews in this life.

Uh, Ron
How do you know who I voted for? I don't recall anyone in the booth with me.

Further, pard, the point I made stands: Bush was bad enough. Time to learn from our mistakes. It seems to me that's ALSO what Obi-wan was teaching.

At least it was in the Star Wars movies I saw.


Hitchhiker
A couple problems with your take on things. One, the Taliban were kicked out of Afghanistan and wiped up very well by the coalition but are now back in again and have control of a lot of the country. Also, AQ does have a safe haven in Pakistan but they aren't really from there. AQ are Saudis and Egyptian in origin with a sprinkling of many other Arabs states like Yemen.

Virginia Patriot,
Thanks for the endorsement!

We cannot rise above the partisanship and the elites until we recognize that a President has to represent his party first. This Perisential party loyalty aspect of our politics is destroying any hope of restoring common sense to legislating.

The two parties have rigged the system to have us believe that we must vote the lesser of two evils, that we have no other choice, nowhere else to go. This big lie, promoted over and over by the DEM/GOP/MSM propaganda machines, has become accepted as true, but it isn't.

What this virtual lock on power has produced the following:
A squandering of our resources
A weakening of our military
A sell out of our sovereignty
A mortgaging of our future
More big government
Declining personal freedoms

What we need is an independent President not loyal to the party machines, PACs, corporations, and money grubbing lobbyists. We need someone who will stand up for the American people first, who just happen to be the rightful owners of the nation.

If you want to see how the elites have rigged the election process to accrue continued power to themselves, please visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. We have a chance to restore the founding principles that made America great. It is possible.

Check out the site, why not? The elites have already stolen our inheritance! Isn't it time for us to reclaim it? If not now, when will we? Thanks, Joe

BrianR
As a noted rightwing nut, gee I wonder who you did vote for in the last 2 Presidential elections. Maybe because you and your ilk hate this country so much that you didn't vote at all. You are right Obi-Wan was teaching, his message was in case you didn't get it was: "Beware of the dark side."

Hahahaha, Ron
Wow, one of the quicker falls into ad hominem bulls**t today.

What a moron.

To the Ron about to get wacked...
By BrainR...
Please subscript your tag so as not to ruin the reputation of the other Ron's here. :)
Thanks -RonM

RonC,RonG are already taken

Taft
writes, "One, the Taliban were kicked out of Afghanistan and wiped up very well by the coalition but are now back in again and have control of a lot of the country. Also, AQ does have a safe haven in Pakistan but they aren't really from there. AQ are Saudis and Egyptian in origin with a sprinkling of many other Arabs states like Yemen."

Ya, those bas$5rds snuck back in. Guess they should have built a fence on their border like us. I was not indicating individual terrorist's country of origin but, simply stating that AQ does have, has had, and probably always will have a safe haven in the Waziristan province of Pakistan among other places. How about those American's fighting for AQ. I am not talking about sympathizers like the NYT et al, but real eating breathing individuals fighting for them? Just because he was born in St Louis, MO or wherever before he trained in Pakistan to fight infidels does not necessarily negate the statement that "they" came from Pakistan before taking control of Afghanistan.

If one takes your statement to its logical conclusion, they all came from Africa. Or, they all descended from apes. I do not give a crap what country's passport they carry or where they were born. What matters is where they train and live.

My presence
only raises your worthiness chump.

Hitchhiker
Did the removal of thousands of troops, arabic speakers and equipment take away from our ability to keep the scum Taliban at bay? Especially since Arabic speakers are in very short supply?

Hitchhiker-liberal fascism
Thanks, Sternhell has been really working to uncover this. Ironically enough, he makes the comparison between fascism and Zionism, but not between fascism and third-world nationalism (esp. the "Palestinians") where it would really count.

momlady
yes ma'am!.. to your early posts. and no ma'am. ....to McCain. Unless you'd settle for him @ Sec. Def. I could. Or Pres. for 3 years; enough to "finish" the job in the M. E. then give me a real conservative, please. Or.... I'm just having an afternoon fantasy... split the presidency. One for foreign affairs, another for domestic affairs.
Then I'll take McCain/Paul.
How 'bout Paul for Pres. and McCain for Sec. Def.?
These open primaries are killing the conservative movement. They give Rockefeller Repubs too much wiggle room.

Taft
writes, "Did the removal of thousands of troops, arabic speakers and equipment take away from our ability to keep the scum Taliban at bay?"

No, they did not. This is not my opinion but, that of General Tommy Franks who was in command of the U.S. Central Command responsible for that particular neck of the woods for the military. He and Bush both understand the idea that we can no more eradicate Al Qaeda violently than we can track and find a single individual somewhere on the Asian continent. The only true way to win this war is through a fundamental changing of the environment and hoping (praying) that it will make the islamic extremism movement a minor and irrelevant footnote.

Btw, there are many languages over there. Arabic is not universally spoken in all those countries.

Hitchhiker
Thanks for your information. Thats good to know.

momlady
I think the koolaide has gotten to you. You say you believe that McCain warts and all is best able to fight the WOT. Iraq is one battle in a long war. Bush has refused to inform the American people of the sinister enemy we are fighting and where they get their marching orders. He's hosted dinners to muslim enabling
so called charities, still allows Saudi students to enter the country; has allowed the building of mosques in every nook and cranny of this country knowing they were led by Wahabists. Okay, what do you suppose McCain warts and all
will do? I bet he grovels to the Saudis to keep oil flowing because he surely won't defile the ANWR paradise with drilling. As I said, WW3 or 4
if you count the Cold war, anyone with half a brain knows you DON't go on a War footing with your back door open. Do you really believe he
will disobey his Mexican financiers and close the borders? Nope, doesn't wash with me. I'm old enough to remember when people rallied around our flag and the government kept them rallied by telling just who and what our enemies were and stood for. Haven't seen anything like that, guess it wouldn't be politcally correct.
If he's so good on the war, why is his advisor
on immigration, a Mexican agent with dual citizenship (how does an American do that?)who is determined to destroy our sovereignty with open borders. How can you trust someone whose as responsible as Bush for Luis Aquilar's murder?
The blood of Luis, other agents and numerous innocent AMERICAN citizens is one MCCain and Bush's hands. I was fooled once, no more, he may be anti abortion but he's still guilty of murder by his border policy. I won't be a party to that. I will ONLY vote conservative candidates, no more holding the nose. P.S. I also hold him with Bush responsible for the year long incarceration of Ramos/Campeon..if Alladins lamp popped up, my wish would be for those two the swap places with the Border Agents..they are
traitors.

RHATICAN
.....Ron Paul is a principled man but he never had a chance because the average man-on-the-street voter does not give a rats a** about the Constitution if he even knows what it is ...

.....They don't give a rats a** about principles or Conservatism either ergo McCain the "Fronrunner" ...just promise them a $$$ rebate from the Government and they are yours ...

.....Conservatism never really had a chance in the Republican Party either ...Reagan was an aberration ...now the Rockefeller wing of establishment elites are about to retake control of the Party with either McCain or Romney .....COLOSSUS

BTW ...If you would like to let them know what you think of them, write to:

... info@rnc.org
... info@gop.com

Well, Ron (the real one)
Looks like your impostor continues with his intellectual contributions to the thread. More foaming at the mouth.

That is, of course, when he's not quoting a few words written by a Hollyweird producer that were spoken by a British actor playing a fictional character living on another world in a science fiction movie.

The pinnacle of political thought, I'm sure, and incredibly relevant to an American election.



You might consider contacting the TH techies about the problem; there's supposed to be a safeguard against duplicate screen identities. Their email address is in the lower right hand corner of the screen.

yes we can
"No, they did not. This is not my opinion but, that of General Tommy Franks who was in command of the U.S. Central Command responsible for that particular neck of the woods for the military. He and Bush both understand the idea that we can no more eradicate Al Qaeda violently than we can track and find a single individual somewhere on the Asian continent. "

Yes we can; actually it's a lot easier than *finding* a single *individual*. Eradicating Al Qaeda is very easy.

If there is no hoof-and-mouth disease, there will be no hoof-and-mouth disease.
If there are no cattle, there will be no hoof-and-mouth disease.

If there are no arab moslems, there will be no Al Qaeda.

I got 13,000 nukes says we can wipe out Al Qaeda.

Satan's no McCain
"McCain's not Satan. Or Hillary, who I REALLY think expects coronation"

of course he's not Satan. Satan, for all his evil, is competent.

maverick writes: @ 1:49 pm
I agree with your post but most people don't look into the entire scope of things. The fact that Bush had to clean up Clinton's mess...for one, non-action on Saddam Hussein!

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to DEVELOP weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Bill Clinton, Feb 4, 1998 & "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to USE FORCE, our purpose is clear." - President Bill Clinton, Feb 17, 1998

Then out of former president Clinton’s own mouth…
FINALLY for all BDS sufferers: "The NEW RAGE is to say that 'the government' is the cause of all our 'problems,' and if only we had no government, we'd have no problems. I can tell you, that contradicts EVIDENCE, HISTORY, and common SENSE." -Bill Clinton


Wait until your mommy reads this
Buster, you're in trouble! She's going to ban you from EVER writing in TH again, or posting on her site, because you bashed Bush. She probably has her minions in motion right now to put you in your place. Never, ever bash Bush. Even though I was not guilty of the infraction, it sure got me banned from The Lucianne-PMS-nofun.com site. Where they decide what's funny and what's relevant, what's not, and for how long, and if they're feeling magnanimous that day, they'll let you post. And don't ever bring up how they've morphed into the Republican version of Democrat Underground.

Who's he calling "nobody"?
"nobody thinks twice about the fact that the GOP oversaw the largest expansion of the government since the Great Society"

Who's he calling "nobody"?

At least Goldberg acknowledges that Bush is exactly as advertised, and conservatives have no grounds to pretend his titanic spending ways were a surprise to them. Conservatives voted for Bush knowing full well he was going to add more crushing government to our lives.

Conservatives have been lying about smaller government all my life. Fortunately I recognized it after Reagan left office. I keep waiting for some debate moderator to call the Republican candidates on it and ask how much smaller government will be when they leave office then when they enter. Then the game will be up. Except for Ron Paul.

If you want good government, you have to vote for government, and the government that governs the least, governs best. Vote libertarian (unless Ron Paul wins the nomination), or stand up and proudly acknowledge you're part of the problem.

http://freedomistheanswer.blogspot.com/

All Republicans will incease spending
Except Ron Paul:

From http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?n dmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080130006171&newsLang=en

National Taxpayers Union: Only Ron Paul Would Cut Spending

NTU Report: Other Republicans Would Increase Spending by Billions

ARLINGTON, Va.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--According to a report released Tuesday by the National Taxpayers Union, Texas Congressman Ron Paul is the only remaining presidential candidate who proposes net spending cuts.

According to the report, Congressman Paul’s proposals would cut government spending by over $150 billion, a conservative estimate of the spending reductions Dr. Paul has proposed. The report concludes that the other remaining Republican candidates, Mitt Romney, John McCain and Mike Huckabee, have proposed spending increases of $19.5 billion, $6.9 billion and $54 billion respectively.


Vic - you don't have to like...
--
...the diagnosis (of your RINO-hood) for it to be accurate.

If you and your ilk are so hot to have Ron Paul "drop out of the race" and for those of us who think his platform and his candidacy are the best possible options for both the Republican Party in particular and these United States in general, whyever in hell don't you just *EXPLAIN* what advantage might (putatively) be gained by clearing the electoral environment of his presence and the advocacy of the messages he espouses?

Ron Paul - by taking the same sort of hard-line limited-government position that energized the campaigns of Barry Goldwater in '64 and Ronald Reagan in '80 - is offering the Republican Party the opportunity to offer a *REAL* and easily appreciated alternative to the Government-as-Mommy crap that's been peddled by the Democrat Party since Roosevelt II.

Moreover, Dr. Paul has done something that *NO REPUBLICAN SINCE REAGAN* has been able to do.

He has energized enormous numbers of people who had *NEVER BEFORE* identified with the Republican Party (including a lot of youngsters - the "twenty-somethings" - who never before gave a damn about national politics because they never before thought that any politician in either branch of the Permanent Institutional Incumbent Party was worth gunpowder enough to blow him to hell).

He's proven that by raising his campaign funds from sources *OUTSIDE* those upon which the Republican Party has heavily relied over the past several decades.

Small contributors genuinely adherent to his cause and his purpose, not big corporations or PACs "investing" in politicians much as they invest in outsourcing technologies and M&As.

So explain, please.

What has the GOP - or the nation - got to gain if Dr. Paul does as you supplicate and "drop[s] out of the race" for the presidency this year?

More RINO crap - and RINO failure - as usual?

--

Vic - you don't have to like...
--
...the diagnosis (of your RINO-hood) for it to be accurate.

If you and your ilk are so hot to have Ron Paul "drop out of the race" and for those of us who think his platform and his candidacy are the best possible options for both the Republican Party in particular and these United States in general, whyever in hell don't you just *EXPLAIN* what advantage might (putatively) be gained by clearing the electoral environment of his presence and the advocacy of the messages he espouses?

Ron Paul - by taking the same sort of hard-line limited-government position that energized the campaigns of Barry Goldwater in '64 and Ronald Reagan in '80 - is offering the Republican Party the opportunity to provide a *REAL* and easily appreciated alternative to the Government-as-Mommy crap that's been peddled by the Democrat Party since Roosevelt II.

Moreover, Dr. Paul has done something that *NO REPUBLICAN SINCE REAGAN* has been able to do.

He has energized enormous numbers of people who had *NEVER BEFORE* identified with the Republican Party (including a lot of youngsters - the "twenty-somethings" - who never before gave a damn about national politics because they never before thought that any politician in either branch of the Permanent Institutional Incumbent Party was worth gunpowder enough to blow him to hell).

He's proven that by raising his campaign funds from sources *OUTSIDE* those upon which the Republican Party has heavily relied over the past several decades.

Small contributors genuinely adherent to his cause and his purpose, not big corporations or PACs "investing" in politicians much as they invest in outsourcing technologies and M&As.

So explain, please.

What has the GOP - or the nation - got to gain if Dr. Paul does as you supplicate and "drop[s] out of the race" for the presidency this year?

More RINO crap - and RINO failure - as usual?

--

Sanity please
I'm a realist, and an idealist. At one point in my 24 yrs, I was an avid socialist, that lasted about a year. Then I grew a brain, been creeping more conservative ever since. Just recently I convinced myself that I'm pro-life.

I'm a grad student in the sciences at Cal-Berkeley, the liberal hotbed of this country. My slide to conservatism has accelerated since I moved here cause I get to see firsthand what liberalism does to people.

I think that the Iraq conflict was flawed from the beginning. A lot of fingerpointing and screaming at the UN, and it culminated in us having to do something or look silly. But now that we're there and we have a military strategy that is working, we should finish the job, for our sake.

But look at what I have to choose from now! New Hampshire is supposed to be the Free State Project, and they picked the WORST Republican possible, and now he's the frontrunner?

The California primary is next Tuesday, and I have two choices: vote for the guy who is a real conservative and shares my political and ideological concerns in Ron Paul (not to mention a veteran of the military, which I think is very important in a time of war -- more likely to show restraint and knowledge of what to do to win) and the only guy left besides Paul who is not John McCain. Seriously, any advice? It's too bad that moonbat anti-war people have hijacked Paul's campaign (at least in the news) cause it's taking away from his central message of less government and personal responsibility.

Because Mediamatters admits they aren't
Taft writes: Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 2:02 PM
Fivo
Fair enough, but could you give me proof of why Media Matters is not a credible source?
----------------
The organization was founded by the conservative-turned-leftist journalist David Brock, who says he created Media Matters “to combat” what he characterizes as the largely successful effort of “the right wing in this country” to “mov[e] the media itself to the right” and to “mov[e] American politics to the right.” Along the same lines, Media Matters’ Managing Director Jamison Foser wrote in May 2006: “Time after time, the news media have covered progressives and conservatives in wildly different ways—and, time after time, they do so to the benefit of conservatives.”

Obviously, Media Matters makes no secret of its animus for political conservatives and its desire to publicly discredit them.

http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2007/09/29/behind-the-cu rtain-media-matters-hillarys-lap-dogs/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .frontpagemag.com%2FArticles%2FRead.aspx%3FGUID%3D%7B1072D7 13-D071-4FD4-AD26-FB4C0F7B4D90%7D&frame=true

Republican is not "right"
I'm amazed by the characterization of Reagan / Clinton welfare reform as "right." The Reagan era reforms, promoted by mass media and so easily exploited by Clinton, were modified versions of warmed over Soviet family policy. The applause for those reforms began dying out early in Clinton's second term (after support was written into the Republican Contract with America) and died an unceremonious death before he left office. Today they are widely understood by the damage they’ve done to marriage and the family. Their cause was pork and lots of it. Big government intrusion followed big spending in an area of law in which the federal government does not belong. The effect was far more reaching than just the waste of money
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