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Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
At Peace with Pax Americana
by Jonah Goldberg
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The United States is getting tagged as an "empire" from all quarters. Indeed, it's been a century since the notion of an American empire got such wide circulation, and back then Washington truly had designs on such expansion. (Google "Spanish-American War" if you're interested.)

The empire charge has long been a staple of the political extremes. It's even bubbled up in the presidential race. Lefty Rep. Dennis Kucinich insists that we must abandon "the ambitions of empire." Hyper-libertarian Rep. Ron Paul says we could afford health care if we weren't running a "world empire."

My problem is that the word "empire" usually substitutes for an argument; there are no good empires, just as there are no good fascists, or racists, or dictators.

In recent years, however, there's been an attempt to rehabilitate the e-word. Historian Niall Ferguson deserves primary credit for the mainstreaming of the empire debate with his 2004 book "Colossus." He faced the empire charge head-on, saying, in effect, "Yeah, so what's your point?" The world needs a stabilizing watchman to keep the bad guys in check and to promote trade, he argued, and America is the best candidate for the job.

Ferguson concedes that the American people don't want an empire, don't think that they have one, and that even our elites have no idea how to run one. As David Frum noted in the National Review, Ferguson "repeatedly complains that his particular fowl neither waddles nor quacks - and yet he insists it is nevertheless a duck."

Even as he strives to rehabilitate the idea of empire, Ferguson acknowledges the word's limitations. It "is irrevocably the language of a bygone age," he concludes. It's become irretrievably synonymous with villainy.

America's critics point out that the U.S. does many things that empires once did - police the seas, deploy militaries abroad, provide a lingua franca and a global currency - and then rest their case. But noting that X does many of the same things as Y does not mean that X and Y are the same thing. The police provide protection, and so does the Mafia. Orphanages raise children, but they aren't parents. If your wife cleans your home, tell her she's the maid because maids also clean homes. See how well that logic works.

When they speak of the American empire, critics fall back on cartoonish notions, invoking Hollywoodized versions of ancient Rome or mothballed Marxist caricatures of the British Raj. But unlike the Romans, or even the British, our garrisons can be ejected without firing a shot. We left the Philippines when asked. We may split from South Korea in the next few years under similar circumstances. Poland wants our military bases; Germany is grumpy about losing them. When Turkey, a U.S. ally and member of NATO, refused to let us invade Iraq from its territory, the U.S. government said "fine." We didn't invade Iraq for oil (all we needed to do to buy it was lift the embargo), and we've made it clear that we'll leave Iraq if the Iraqis ask.

The second verse of the anti-imperial lament, sung in unison by liberals and libertarians, goes like this: Expansion of the military-industrial complex leads to contraction of freedom at home. But historically, this is a hard sell. Women got the vote largely thanks to World War I. President Truman, that consummate Cold Warrior, integrated the Army, and the civil rights movement escalated its successes even as we escalated the Cold War and our presence in Vietnam. President Reagan built up the military even as he liberalized the economy.

Sure, Naomi Wolfe, Frank Rich and other leftists believe that the imperialistic war on terror has turned America into a police state. But if they were right, they wouldn't be allowed to say that.

Two compelling new books help explain why our "empire" is different from the Soviet or Roman varieties. Walter Russell Mead's encyclopedic "God and Gold" argues that Anglo-American culture is uniquely well suited toward globalism, military success, capitalism and liberty. Amy Chua's brilliant "Day of Empire" confirms why: Successful "hyperpowers" tend to be more tolerant and inclusive than their competitors. Despite its flaws, Britain was the first truly liberal empire.

America has picked up where the British left off. Whatever sway the U.S. holds over far-flung reaches of the globe is derived from the fact that we have been, and hopefully shall continue to be, the leader of the free world, offering help and guidance, peace and prosperity, where and when we can, as best we can, and asking little in return. If that makes us an empire, so be it. But I think "leader of the free world" is the only label we'll ever need or - one hopes - ever want.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Never was an "empire" like this one
The last real empire died in 1991. Some say that was when the 20th Century ended.

I remember having a political conversation with a liberal woman who had a Masters in Serbian. This was at or around the 2004 election.

She declared that Bush had to be defeated because he was destroying freedom in America. In reply I asked:

"Aside from having to take your shoes off before boarding a plane, what could you do in 1999 that you are not free to do now?"

She did not have an answer for this and instead responded that many people felt their freedoms had been eroded by Bush.

She just couldn't get specific about which ones. To her credit, I think she knew she'd been caught with a question she had no ready answer for and realized that her response was not impressive.

Try these on for size Citizen Ostrich.
Police departments routinely conduct random bag searches on buses and subways, in violation of the Fourth Amendment.
Government bureaucrats can now write their own search warrants, called "National Security Letters."
If you want to go to say, Disneyworld, you are required to be fingerprinted, and your prints may end up in the files of the FBI
Government now has the ability to acquire all financial information about your life, without your permission or knowledge.
Peaceful protesters have been mass arrested.
Artists have been arrested for writing such things as "Giuliani = Police State" and "God Bless America" on sidewalks (with erasable chalk).
Government schools crack down on speech the state does not like, suspending students who utter it.
Government officials can now search your home or office without notifying you.
Persons served with "National Security Letters" are prohibited from telling anyone about it.
Government is tracing email conversations through its "Carnivore" technology.
The president has been given the authority to essentially declare himself dictator after declaring "a state of emergency" as a result of the "National Continuity Policy."
The president has been given the ability to station military troops anywhere in America to "restore public order," reversing hundreds of years of constitutional restrictions on the use of the military on American citizens.
The president believes he is allowed to simply ignore the Geneva Conventions.
The government now has a "domestic surveillance program" that enables it to spy on Americans’ phone calls, e-mails, and all other electronic communications without a search warrant.



http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo135.html

DaveM...
I'm not as knowledgeable as you appear to be about such matters. But I must say this: if this were a police state, with the gov't cracking down on undesirables, I trust that you'd have been arrested and "dealt with" by now, for posts such as yours. I also know of no one or have heard of no incidents of anyone receiving the kind of nefarious treatment you're talking about. Do you have any information on anyone who's been tortured or who's home's been violated or domestic phone calls tapped? You really need to post it.

But I do question your charge that Geneva Convention regulations have been violated. Waterboarding is not torture. And I need to ask someone like you this: what would you do to fight the Islamo-fascists? How would you wage the war on these nuts and stop them?

Thanks.

DaveM writes:
"The president believes he is allowed to simply ignore the Geneva Conventions."


Tell me sir, do the islamo-fascists adhere to the Geneva Convention regulations?

A BIT DOG ALWAYS HOLLERS!!!
THE JACOBIN/NEOCON TROSKYITE MARXISTS LIKE JONAH GOLDBERG, MONA CHAREN, AND MICHAEL MEDVED are just a few of the NEOCONS who would like to walk the halls camouflaged as true conservatives but its too late, the cat is out of the bag.

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.
6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and
withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should
not be limited to the defense of our country.
14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)
16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

USMC LT. ??WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG?
You mean you didn't know that the history of the Neocons started in the Democratic Party? Maybe you should do a little more research.

** You have your point system mixed up too! you are not correct about that either.

Thankyou for giving me your permission to continue to live in my so called fantasy world.

Unfortunately for you and most Americans...my fantasy world is your and their REALITY!!

**IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING SUBSTANTIVE TO WRITE I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR IT INSTEAD OF YOUR JOHN WAYNE SNIDE REMARKS!! WITH ALL DUE RESPECT I AM SURE! LOL

Sir Assland gets a beat down!
Way to go Devil Dog! Too bad Sir Assland wasn't around during the Lincoln administration when Honest Abe was rounding up Copperhead congressmen and journalists and jailing them.

Yeah, the Bush Administration is really cracking down on our civil liberties. It seems to me that if you don't receive or make phone calls to suspected terrorists, you've got nothing to worry about.

Oh, yes, you do have to take your shoes off before boarding an airplane.

DaveM
You bring up many salient points concerning the expansion of government powers and the erosion of individual liberty. People on both sides of this debate have concerns with this phenomenon. Conservatives rationalize the expansion by saying it is needed to protect the nation from external threats. Liberals rationalize an expansion of government power and intrusion into our lives in order to care for citizens and equalize incomes and outcomes. In the end both put our liberties at risk. One has to answer the question where is the greatest danger and how does society protect itself from government overreach.

I see a world with a variety of threats from which we require protection. While certain foreign policy actions may actually increase the threat level for the most part you don't have to do anything to attract the attention of a*sholes. Throughout history there have been troublemakers and it doesn't matter what you do they will cause trouble.

I see the least awful option as being one in which the public tolerates a degree of government intrusion in the hope that it provides increased security. I back that up by supporting the ability of the people to protect themselves from government by keeping and bearing arms. I see the Liberal position as being support for the expansion of government combined with a desire to render the populace incapable of defending itself from that expansion. To me that is illogical.

FIGHTR FER RIGHT??
So sorry to crash your little party and yes..I do come from a long line of terrorists here in Georgia.

My Great, Great, Great, Great, Great Grandfather was on King Georges list of the 60 most wanted men in Georgia. He was sent to Savannah by the Anglican Church as a missionary where he pastored at Trinity Church in Savannah before being commissioned as an officer in General Lachlan McIntosh brigade during the Revolutionary war...which he served in as a Chaplain and later was a founding member in the Society of Cinncinnatus! His name was ..........
John Josiah Holmes.

TruLib: Agree 100%
.

USMC Lt.
You should be aware that for the most part blasting neocons is just cover for anti-semetism and hatred of Israel.

Dear Sir
Your lineage is impressive, but perhaps, like royalty, your gene pool is a thousand feet deep and two feet wide.

I know Savannah well. Have you an association with the John Birch Society or the ACLU or both?

Sir Aslan
Your pedigree is irrelevant. We are not considering using you for breedig purposes.

C'mon you guys...
...take it easy on Davy M and Sir Aslan.They just can't help themselves.Let them live in their fantasy world.We all have to get through this life one way or another.And whatever you do,don't take them seriously.That's what they want the most.

Fingerprints at Disney World?
Dave M,

Having recently returned from Disney World, I must challenge you on your claim that one must be fingerprinted before entering the premises. No such requirement is, or ever has been, enforced... or even suggested. That you so boldly stated this propaganda as fact leads one to wonder about all your other statements. Bad form, Dave. Bad form.

DaveM
Did you actually cut and paste all that stuff without considering the ridiculousness of some of the charges? Fingerprinting at Disneyland?

Who could think up such a thing?

And what exactly is a "government school"? The ones that have expelled students for saying things against the government? The "government", the federal government, does not run public schools or universities. And in this day and age it is hard to imagine any teacher or professor becoming angry at a student for mocking this government. Just my opinion.

"Government is tracing email conversations through its 'Carnivore' technology."

Dave, an erosion of freedom would mean I am prohibited from sending emails, not that the government takes an interest in emails that have an inordinate amount of words like "jihad", "Allah", "infidels", "bomb", "anthrax", "ricin", and on and on. I don't send emails that would be of interest to anybody besides who they are sent to.

And as far as what Presidents can do in a "state of emergency", I suggest you google these guys named Lincoln, Wilson, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.


These are bad things?
"America's critics point out that the U.S. does many things that empires once did - police the seas, deploy militaries abroad, provide a lingua franca and a global currency - and then rest their case."

These are bad things?

Funny, I thought it was the duty of the strong to protect the weak, to defend the powerless from the bully, and to use that strength as a positive force for good.


To DaveM
Dave, I was in Disneyworld just this past January and was not require to submit fingerprints, blood, hair, saliva, sperm, urine or stool samples. Just lots of green.

Your overwrought post reminds me of a saying...facism is forever descending upon America, but landing in Europe.

Sir Aslan
"THE JACOBIN/NEOCON TROSKYITE MARXISTS LIKE JONAH GOLDBERG, MONA CHAREN, AND MICHAEL MEDVED..."

A clumsy, unlovely, stylistically awful sentence written as if it were from an intern on the PRAVDA editorial staff. I'd like to know how one can be for tax cuts, limited government, and free markets and still be a "marxist".

"1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual."

Against theocratic Islamist regimes, I do too. Ditto for places like Cuba and North Korea. Don't you? If not, what is it about theocracy and totalitarianism that you find amenable to your political beliefs?

Free people have no need for revolution, as they have already arrived at their destination.

"2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so."

Um, no. They have resisted redrawing Iraq into Kurdish, Sunni, and Shia sectors. And they support the creation of a Palestinian state.



Sir Aslan
"3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends."

Iraq was a resumption of hostilities, not preemptive war. Actually, you could say that it wasn't even a resumption of hostilities, as military action against Iraq had taken place off and on for the entire preceding decade or so.

Saddam did not consider the Gulf War to be finished business and conducted himself in every way to convey that feeling.

"4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity."

A lot of things are justified when a large portion of a religous movement declares it's intention to kill the people you are Constitutionally obligated to protect.

And I prefer my elected officials to play hard ball. This is government in a dangerous world, not a panel discussion on Phil Donahue.

Jonah G. is influenced by his Jewishness
Those in the Republican Party who advocate the interventionist foreign policies (quasi-empiralism) are mostly Jews. Consciously or subsconciously, these Jews are pushing for America to act in ways that are perceived to advance Jewish interests at the expense of American interests.

See Dr. Kevin MacDonald's book, "The Culture of Critique". Jews benefit by liberal immigration and American intervention to protect Israeli interest which is mostly what the Iraqi was was all about.

George Washington was right, neocons like Jonah Goldberg are wrong. Most of our foreign aid is used to either support Israel directly by sending billions to Israel or support Israel indirectly by paying off Israel's enemies in the hope they will not invade Israel. This is why we give money to Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinians etc.

The Jews in America are our puppet masters. We need to understand that we don't run our own country. The Jews dominate TV, Hollywood, newspapers, magazines, and the internet. They dominate our financial institutions. Also 87% of Jews vote democrat, although less than 1% of Republican voters are Jews, they Jews are the primary influencers of American foreign policy within a Republican administration.

We are suckers. We will never learn.

A fair column Jonah, but...
I take issue with the statement that the U.S. had empirical designs in an earlier day and referencing the Spanish American war as an example. The Spanish American war was started not on the basis of obtaining an empire, but on the basis of what was called "yellow journalism". At least that is what I was taught in history classes way back in the fifties when they actually taught history. H*ll, the MSM of the day actually bragged about it. So instead of reading up on the war, read up on William Randolph Hurst.

The only Spanish possession that we kept as Puerto Rico and we have given them many chances to become independent and they do not wish to. Just think how much better off we would have been if we had kept Cuba. Would we have had a Fidel in Cuba and a massive influx of Hispanics in Florida?

Sir Aslan
"5. They express no opposition to the welfare state."

Goldberg wrote in opposition to this here:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGEyNmRkMWZlNjUwMTY4Yz k4OGY4MzBiOTc5NmEzYzY=

and here:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzU1ZjkwMDIzMjA4ZTgwNj c3MmQ2MGMzNmRlODJkZGY=

His archived writings on National Review do not suggest he as amenable to the welfare state. I suspect none of Medved's or Charen's works will either.

Vic
Yellow Jouralism is still causing our wars today. The difference is that today Jews dominate our media. We have sent troops into the Somolia, the Balkans, Haiti, Iraqi, etc because the media has manipulated us at every step. They push people like Saddam in our face on an hourly basis and basically goad our leaders into doing something about it when in fact the best thing we can do is ignore most of those people.

See the Jewish agenda above.

Sir Aslan
"6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it."

They have strongly endorsed democratic elections, a free press, market economies, and religious tolerance. They have not endorsed colonial expansion, mercantilism, or any of the other accoutrements of empire. Unless you can show otherwise.

"7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive."

It is incumbent upon governments to possess knowledge that they do not think other governments, especially hostile ones, should possess. Information that could be used by those hostiles to harm the people our government is Constitutionally obligated to safegaurd. Unfortunately, institutions like the New York Times believe America's interests are served by informing jihadists of the bank tracking apparatus we used to discover terrorist activity.


Sir Aslan
"10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised."

After witnessing the 20th Century, who wouldn't conclude that taking no action overseas in your country's interests is ill-advised? America's interests and security do not begin and end at our water's edge.

Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union certainly didn't think so. Go to your local mosque built by Saudi money and preaching Wahabbism and ask them if they believe in neutrality in foriegn affiars. I guessing they don't. You know what happens when there is a fight or struggle and only one side shows up for it? They win by default.

Sir Aslan
"11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem."

I used to as well, but then the company adopted a liberal political agenda and I switched to wearing Wranglers. Pretty good jeans.

Hey, hold on a minute...

"14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many."

This is becoming the easiest way to spot a Ron Paul acolyte. They use the phrase "foreign entanglements" often.

For the record, I think 9-11 resulted from 17 terrorists hijacking planes and crashing them.


Citizen Carrier
It would have been better if we had not gotten involved with:

1) WWI which resulted in USSR, Hitler, Israel, Iraq, etc.
2) Korea
3) Vietnam
4) Balkans
5) Somolia
6) Haiti
7) Iraq

The list is longer than this. George Washington was right, the interventionists are wrong.

Sir Aslan
"15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)"

No, just the ones who insist on sounding like Noam Chomsky when he discusses foreign policy.

Liberius
"...support Israel indirectly by paying off Israel's enemies in the hope they will not invade Israel. This is why we give money to Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinians etc."

We support Israel by giving money to their avowed enemies? Is this neo-reasoning?

Citizen
George Washinton used the phrase "foreign entanglements".

We would not have had 9/11 if we had not gone to Iraq and Saudi Arabia in the first place. I'm not saying we deserved 9/11, we certainly did not, I'm just saying that we stupidly gone entangled in ME politics and putting troops on the ground was very counter-productive.

Will we ever learn?

Zerubbabel
Yes, we are PAYING THEM OFF. This is the real deal behind Jimmy Carter's big "success" in the Camp David Accords. He obligated billions of American money indenfintely to Egypt so that they would not invade Israel. We are doing the same with basically all countries near Israel. That is the "genious" behind American foreign policy.

We went to Iraq primarily because Saddam was openly funding Palestinian suicide bombing of Israelis and because he bombed Tel Aviv with Scuds. It's more complicated than that though.

Liberious
1. WWI

We would have stayed out of it, but Germany had this annoying habit of sinking passenger ships with Americans on board and trying to talk Mexico into making war upon us.

See, that was GERMANY being interventionist with US.

Where I come from, that demands a response.

2. Korea

I'm at a loss to understand what could possibly be better if the entire Korean penninsula was currently controlled by Kim Jung-il. About 50 million South Koreans live free, prosperous and happy lives and are staunch allies of America we can count on in rough times.

Perhaps you do not understand the nature of North Korea? What good was ever realized by communist expansion? Why ON EARTH am I having to ask this to a libertarian, an ideology that is "supposedly" the polar opposite of communism?

3. Vietnam

The tragedy there was not that we got involved. It was that we didn't win. South Vietnam, at least, would've had the same chances at prosperity and happiness as South Korea.

Hey, as soon as you can get the forces of oppression, tyranny and cruelty to abandon interventionalism, I will wholeheartedly endorse that we do the same.


Citizen
The sinking of the Lusitania took place in 1915, we didn't enter the war until 1917. There is a long disconnect because the sinking of that ship (and others like it) did not justify our entry into the war.

The Germans placed an add in American newspapers telling people not to board those ships because they were subject to being sunk as they entered the war zone. Germany even sent 50 warning telegrams to the most elite Americans who had tickets to sail the Lusitania.

We insisted on sending supplies and arnaments on ships that were carrying civilian passengers. You can't expect Germany to tolerate that. They were all total war with Britian.

I don't like the idea of Korea being communist but it was not worth sacraficing the lives of 50,000 American boys for the sake of Korea. And we have been financially supporting them for 55 years now. We can't run the whole world. Should we have sacrificed ourselves to spare communism in China?

Vietnam. Do bad we were so interventionist that we thought it necessary to send American military in to SAVE the life of Ho Chi Minh (which an American Army medic did) and we trained Ho Chi Minh's army also in the '40s. Clearly, history has demonstrated that it would have been better if we had stayed home and watched Gomer Pyle instead of the fiasco of Vietnam.

Liberious
"We would not have had 9/11 if we had not gone to Iraq and Saudi Arabia in the first place."

We weren't in Iraq on 9/11. We were in 1991, but that was with a coalition that included the armed forces of other muslim countries. And al Qaeda, we are constantly reminded, did not think highly of the secularist Saddam and his Baathist regime. Nor do I find it creditable that al Qaeda, a Sunni organization, was all worked up about Iraqi Shias who might have been suffering. Indeed, al Qaeda made it a point to murder Shias in order to foment civil war in Iraq.

Such a callous regard for Iraq hardly supports the notion they were angry at US for what WE were doing to Iraq or Saddam or the Baathists.

And not all Saudis disagreed with our presence there. If they did, we wouldn't have had a presence there.

True, some of their religious extremists did NOT approve of us being here, but I've never been of the opinion that our foreign policy is to be dictated or shaped by what we think Wahabbi fanatics who cane rape victims want from us.

Liberious
"George Washinton used the phrase 'foreign entanglements'."

Do you suppose he was referring to the "foreign entanglement" guys like Ben Franklin sought to cement with France so we could win the Revolutionary War at Yorktown?

Probably not. I guess we can interpret that to mean that Washington believed we should be VERY selective about the time and circumstances in which we form alliances.

for hogrider
hogrider asks: 'Tell me sir, do the islamo-fascists adhere to the Geneva Convention regulations?"

NONE of the enemies America has fought has strictly adhered to the Geneva Conventions:

During World War II, the Japanese brutalized captured American POWs in the infamous "Bataan Death March." Captured U.S. fliers were tried as war criminals, tortured, and executed too. The German Nazis shot captured American and British POWs in cold blood (ever see the movie "The Great Escape"?).

Nevertheless, the U.S. did NOT use the behavior of our enemies as an excuse to stoop to their level and abandon the Geneva Conventions too. We kept the moral high ground.

And as for Vietnam, just ask John McCain how strictly the Vietnamese Communists adhered to Geneva during his captivity. Nevertheless, it's only been in THIS current war that any American President has dared to push the envelope of Geneva.

Citizen
BF and GW sought involvement by France in our country, not the other way around. And remember that it turned out to be very bad for France because it was the debt incurrered from helping us that ultimately caused the King of France to lose his head.

So you have really helped me make my point.

for Citizen Carrier
Citizen Carrier claims: "Iraq was a resumption of hostilities, not preemptive war."

That was NOT Bush's justification for the war, and that was NOT the justification for the war in the original October 2002 war resolution passed by Congress.

That is YOUR personal rationalization for the war, after the fact.

In fact, all the goals in the original October 2002 war resolution passed by Congress--ending the strategic threat to the West posed by Saddam and his alleged WMD--were successfully completed by 2004. Whatever we have been doing in Iraq since then--fighting counterinsurgency wars against al-Qaeda, policing a recalcitrant tribal population from ethnic warfare, nation-building--has NEVER been explicitly authorized by Congress.

Liberious
See, you are criticizing American policy NOW while at the same time trying rationalize what Germany did in World War One as logical and reasonable.

Germany in World War One WASN'T a non-interventionist power.

You are accusing America now of behaving like Germany did in WWI, but that we are wrong for doing it, but Germany was sensible in doing it.

"The Germans placed an add in American newspapers telling people not to board those ships because they were subject to being sunk as they entered the war zone."

Ah, so if we issued similar warnings to muslim nations that they risk death if they travel abroad, you'd be fine with that? Or would you brand us as imperialists?

"We insisted on sending supplies and arnaments on ships that were carrying civilian passengers. You can't expect Germany to tolerate that. They were all total war with Britian."

I do not concern myself with what aggressive countries waging illegal war in order to seize territory from France will tolerate. Great Britain and France did NOT enter the war for the goal of seizing German land or property. They were defending themselves against a country trying to do it to THEM.

Citizen
My point is that our involvement in Iraq in 1991 resulted in our extended presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia from '91 to 9/11. It was clearly the main reason al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11.

It would have been far better for America if we let the Middle East deal with its own problems. We are sacraficing the lives of our boys for what?! In the end, there is absolutely no guarantee that things will be any better. Often, things are worse after we do so much interfereing. We are bankrupting ourselves by trying to control the world beyond our borders. War guarantees death, destruction, and debt but it does not guarantee anything good on the other end.

We need to put our troops on our borders and fight against immigration and drugs which invade us everyday. We need to stop giving our money away to foreign countries. Its maddness.

for Liberius
Liberius writes: "We have sent troops into the Somolia, the Balkans, Haiti, Iraqi, etc because the media has manipulated us at every step."

The neo-conservative Project for a New American Century (PNAC) had advocated toppling Saddam long before 9-11 ever happened, for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with Israel. Cheney and Rumsfeld were major members of PNAC and in the Bush Administration they were the strongest advocates of taking on Iraq. And neither one of them is a Jew. Neither is Bush.

The problem with conspiracy theorists like you is that there are too many different conspiracy theories and they all point in different directions:

"It's all about oil"
"It's all about Israel and the Jews"
"It's all about Bush 43 avenging his dad"

I say: Go back to the original PNAC documents (they're still on line) and read what the rationale for invading Iraq really was. Believe me, Israel and oil had nothing to do with it. The real reasons are even dumber.


Citizen
WWI started because countries failed to mind their own business. Why should Germany declare war because an Austrian duke gets assasinated? Why should Russia declare war against Germany because Germany declared war on a Balkan country. It's maddness.

And in WWII. It was crazy for Hitler initiate war but it was also crazy for Britian and France to declare war against Germany just because Germany invaded Poland. The USSR also invaded Poland 2 weeks later but Britain and the USA actually allied with the USSR. In the end, Poland was not liberated but was controlled by Stalin who turned out worse than Hitler. This is all madness when you stop and think about it.

StevenL
You are ignoring the fact that prior to '91 Iraq had the 4th largest Army in the world and they were threatening Israel. Israel had bombed Iraq's nuclear plant in '81. Iraq was supporting Palestinian terrorism. Saddam sent scuds into Tel Aviv in '91.

Iraq was perceived as Israel's #1 threat. Now that the external threat of Iraq has diminished due to our intervention the Jewish yellow press media is pounding the drums about Iran which is the new #1 threat to Israel.

Liberious
"BF and GW sought involvement by France in our country, not the other way around. And remember that it turned out to be very bad for France because it was the debt incurrered from helping us that ultimately caused the King of France to lose his head.

So you have really helped me make my point."

I sense you are starting to run out of steam.

Our alliance with France wasn't a foreign entanglement by your standards because we DESPERATELY wanted and needed it? So any alliance that WE seek to create, be it NATO, the U.N. or NAFTA is fine, just so long as we want it, but it is wrong if other countries FORCE us into them?

When have we ever been forced in that matter?

Either it was a foreign entanglement or it wasn't. I think it was.

The debt incurred by France in helping us had much less to do with French anger towards their king than the WAR they were directly engaged in with Britain, which was expensive in and of itself (even if we weren't involved) and resulted in deaths and poverty among the people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution#Causes

Look at the causes. War debt is there, but considering the popularity America had with post-revolutionary France (for a time, at least) one can hardly say the French blamed us for their unhappiness.

StevenL
Do you not know that the neocon movement is dominated by Jews? Do you not know that the godfather of the neocons is a former communist Jew? Do you not realize that the primary financial supporters of Bush and Cheney were Jews who required Bush and Cheney to appoint key Jewish advisors like Scooter Libby, Douglas Feith, Paul Wolofowitz, and Richard Perle who were primarily responsible with feeding the Jewish press with bogus intelligence on WMD in Iraq?

Robert
Christianity does not have nut like Islam has. Crazies in Islam are far, far, far more numerous and intense.

Bin Laden's #1 reason for declaring war against us was our presence in Saudi Arabia. It is there in the black and white declaration of war that bin Laden wrote although our Jewish press doesn't mention it.

Although Islam may always have nuts, our presence in Saudi empowered the nuts and gave them much influence to convince many others in the Muslim world that we were their enemy. Our presence helped inflame the situation.

Why go to Saudi in the first place? What's in it for us? I doubt Saddam would have invaded Saidi but even if he did, Saddam was always a more reliable seller of oil than the Saudis. It was not Saudis, not Saddam who did the oil embargo against us. [That was to punish us for intervening in the Israeli war of '73 on the side of Israel].

The truth is that oil prices would probably be much less now if we just staying out of the ME. They need our dollars worse than we need their oil. We should drill more of our own. We sit on much oil because we allow enviro-wackos to rule over common sense.

Liberious
"In the end, Poland was not liberated but was controlled by Stalin who turned out worse than Hitler."

Stalin was worse than Hitler because he lasted longer than Hitler. Hitler didn't last long because the world ganged up and destroyed him. Had Hitler and Nazi Germany survived as long as the Soviet Union, I do not want to guess which one would've had the higher body count.

The world would not have been better off by NOT getting rid of Hitler. It just would've been a world with both Hitler AND Stalin. And maybe a nuclear exchange thrown in for good measure.

What would have been the outcome of our non-involvement in WWII? Either a 3-way Cold War between us, Germany, and the Soviets, or a Cold War in which Soviet tanks stopped their advance on the coast of the English Channel.

"Often, things are worse after we do so much interfereing."

The thing of it is that you can point to unintended consequences from our interventions as PROOF that intervention is bad.

You have to hypothesize about what would've been worse off had we not interfered.

And when I DO POINT OUT what would have been worse if we hadn't interfered, you fall back on stuff like, "well, we can't afford to be the world's policeman".

What would've been so "affordable" about all of Europe being controlled by murderous Nazis or Soviets for all of the 20th Century?

Do you suppose in a world like that America would've had the "Norman Rockwell" 20th Century we had? With a relatively good standard of living and freedoms?

Or do you suppose that in a world dominated by Nazis and Soviets or Soviets who controlled all of Europe that America would necessarily have become an armed camp? A militaristic enclave of national drafts, McCarthyism on steroids, and a wedding of the military-industrial complex like you can't imagine?

Opposed to that future, I think WWII was worth it.

Citizen
When we paleo-conservatives complain of "foreign entanglements" obviously we are primarily concerned about us sending troops to a foreign countries to influence the outcome of events in foreign countries.

France helped us but they hurt themselves. I don't deny there were other factors leading to the French Revolution but personnally I doubt it would have happened without France helping America have a revolution against the English King. The French revolutionairies were inspired by us, in part, and in part it had a lot to do with France being weakened by the war debt, much of it resulting from helping us. Again, their were other factors but the bottom line is that France was greatly weakened by helping us.

On Empire
Consider that we have 737 military bases operating in 130 countries abroad. Any discussion of whether our Democratic country can be considered an empire or not would necessarily demand an overview of what these bases are doing in each of these foreign countries, what and whose interests they are protecting. Anyone who assumes they are there for wholesome, bighearted reasons is naive and can also be counted on as one who trusts government across the board, an attitude that is very detrimental to maintaining a healthy democracy.

We need a Democratic government back again to remind the population of how its supposed to work. On top of that we need a media whose jobs are protected and advanced by reporting real news and not administration bullsh*t that is purely designed to redefine language to make reality palatable and legal.

Conservatism is an acceptable ideology but completely tyranical when it's put to the actual governing test.


Citizen
I'll bet you that America, Britain, and possibly even France would have been better off by staying out of war in Europe in WWII. The book Mein Kamph suggests that all along Hitler was mainly opposed to communism and the USSR. The proof in the pudding came when he turned away from Britain and attacked Stalin. It would have been far wiser of us to sit back and allow those 2 devils to fight each other. Hitler's main beef against the Jews was that the Jews were primarily behind communism everywhere, which was totally true. The Jews tried to foment communist revolution in Germany at the close of WWI. Hitler only went to war with France and Britian after THEY declared war against Germany.

I believe that if we never got rapped up in WWII in Europe we would have saved millions of lives, trillions of dollars. Israel would have never been formed. The Jews needed a homeland but there were plenty of better places for it such as Madagascar, which was the original Nazi plan.

We have only hurt ourselves by getting so rapped up in the foolishness of other countries.

suzerose
I'm against intervention but putting Democrats in power is not the answer. Democrats were in charge for WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Somolia, Haiti.

Even at their worst, the Republicans are far better than the Dems.

America has its heart in the right place but not its head. We are not empiralists like the Romans were. We are hedgemons but the hedgemony has not been good for our interests. We need to mind our own business, protect our borders, language, and culture. Stop giving away our money, avoid wars, etc.

The Left is actually more intervenionist than the Right.

Liberious
"I'll bet you that America, Britain, and possibly even France would have been better off by staying out of war in Europe in WWII."

Britain and France got involved in WWII because they were sticking up for an innocent country that had been raped and butchered by a monstrous regime that cooked up stories to justify the acquistion of "lebensraum".

I guess in your world, such matters as honor and integrity and compassion and MORAL OUTRAGE must take a back seat to pragmatism and political calculation.

In your world there is no room for human dignity or altruism (for what did Britain or France care if Poland fell?). No chivalry or comradeship. Or idealism.

The world you envision is just an endless series of "CYA".

I'm glad we don't live in your world. I like life as a human being. You can pretend to be a vulcan if you like.

Big Government and Taxes
If you like big government and high taxes, you should support Pax Americana. As a conservative, I will not support Pax Americana.

Just a Compliment

Excellent dialogue. My compliments to most all of the participants.

But I give particular credit to Citizen Carrier. I am a frequent reader, but only an infrequent poster. I can't recall anyone on any other thread ever offering as much as Citizen Carrier has in the way of factual insights, logical arguments and just plain, good writing. Thank you.

[Btw, since it seems to matter a lot to Liberius, let the record reflect that I am not a Jew.]

Jonah Goldberg writes:
"America has picked up where the British left off. Whatever sway the U.S. holds over far-flung reaches of the globe is derived from the fact that we have been, and hopefully shall continue to be, the leader of the free world, ..."

Sorry Jonah....I'm siding with the likes of "hyper-libertarian" (as you put it) Ron Paul.
Can you imagine that the income tax did not preceed 1913? A day when we didn't have the federal reserve who could print money which would allow our government the ability to wage war easily, especially based on faulty intelligence? Or federal government monopoly on schools that dumbs us down so we can't see the realities and the dangers of this power?

As an "empire", our federal government has created many of the entanglements we are now in. We armed and trained bin-Laden in his war against the former Soviet Union...now we fight him....the same goes with Saddam.

We have federalism run amock....and with the right propaganda, and the right leader in control of the world's strongest military, and a subtle shift in political philosophy, we could indeed morph into something you might disagree with. And Jonah, when that day comes, you would have helped set the foundation.

It doesn't take a lot to realize that in the past, even Abe Lincoln imprisoned and deported (even US congressman) who disagreed with Abe on policy....and that Abe held that those who stood by in silent disagreement were even treasonous.

The folk warning us of this "doom" are Ron Paul, Thomas DiLorenzo, Judge Napolitano, and other voices of the past who fear abuse of the power we "sheep" have given our betters. You may not think George Bush is bad enough or that the Patriot Act is that big of a threat, but with a nation of sheep so influenced by the propagandists who say it can't happen....well, it could get worse.

Citizen
No, you are wrong about me. I'm quite idealistic but I understand that pragmatism must override idealism in most circumstances. Can you honestly say that ATTEMPTING to liberate Poland from Germany is worth YOUR life or the life of YOUR sons? No, you can't.

The tragic fact is that Poland was always geographically located between warring powers of the Russians, Prussians, Germans etc. Poland had a long history of war as a result. Also, the geographic situation is also why the Balkans have had so much trouble. We even got a word from that: balkanize.

Again, you gloss over the fact that after 20 million died, Poland became a slave state to Stalin. Can't you stop and think and see that war is to be avoided as much as possible. If we are invaded that's one thing but why would someone want to cross the Altantic or Pacific to invade us unless they are ticked at us for screwing around on their turf???

September12
Thanks a lot. I used to think like Citizen but I evolved. I have since regainded the wisdom that American used to have in the time of George Washington. This was the primary philosophy in American until the Spanish American war (which had bad affects) and then again until WWI (which was a fiasco) and then again until WWII (where we were attacked and Hitler declared war against us). Our abandonment of non-interventionism has cost us dearly. I wish you could see that. I wish you would read Buchanan's book, "A Republic, Not an Empire".

Liberious
"Can you honestly say that ATTEMPTING to liberate Poland from Germany is worth YOUR life or the life of YOUR sons? No, you can't."

Presumptuous of you. I'm in my 15th year in the U.S. Army. I'm quite prepared to risk my life in the service of an ideal. I have a couple times already.

Is there anything you believe in strongly enough to lay that much on the line?

As I said, Britain and France entered that war on PRINCIPLE. Principles, I believe, are worth fighting for. It wasn't just the mechanical, unemotional attempt to free up the "socieo-economic" zone known as "Poland".

It was an expression of moral outrage. Of anger. Of righteousness. It was perhaps one of the greatest acts of heroism in the 20th Century.

In that instance France and England upheld the finest aspects of Western Civilization. The pinnacle of human advancement.

And in 1941, how could America ever stand to do less? Ever bear to look them in the eye?

There is such a thing as national character. And it has never been in our national character to behave that way. The world will be severely diminished if we ever abandon it.


Liberius
The Jews this ... the Jews that ...
Well, you've discovered the truth! It was all THE JEWS. I was even at the meeting we all had. I'll be getting my cut of the "Jewish Conspiracy Oil Money" in the mail pretty soon now. Then I'll can go to the next meeting of the JWDS - Jewish World Domination Society - all 10 Million or so of us - and we can play our next move.

Citizen
You and I are much more alike than you realize. 10 years ago I would have been saying the same things as you. I am a patriotic, conservative, Christian and card-carrying Republican. I joined the USAR as a medic in 1983. I then went active duty for 8 years as a Navy JAG. I'm still in the USNR after 24 years of total service.

Although I have been very proud of America's righteouness, I have come to the conclusion that, while our hearts are in the right place, our heads are not.

I don't want you to die or lose your legs in our effort to achieve this fluid concept of "stability" in Iraq. I shared many C-17s lately with those who had their faces burned off on Iraq. Those are fine American men, they were doing their duty, but I know now that the political decisions being made at the high levels are not good for America (or even the world) in the long run.

Rick
Don't be such a conspiracy nut. Don't wallow in ignorance. The war was not about oil. And I've never maintained anthing was the product of a Jewish "conspiracy".

But I do realize ethnic conflicts of interests when I see them. I do see patterns of Jewish behavior. I do see extreme disproportionalities of Jewish involvment in radical, leftwing movements and that this has been the case for at least hundreds if not thousands of years. This is the reality. Too bad so few people have eyes to see.

Jews
- Winston Churchill in 1937 wrote that Jews were primarily to blame for the antagonism towards them and actually referred to them as “Hebrew bloodsuckers” in a recently discovered article. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article23475 25.ece

- In another fascinating article from 1920, Churchill described international Jews as involved in a “world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization”. http://library.flawlesslogic.com/ish.htm I don’t go so far.

- Henry Ford published a 4-volumn book entitled “International Jews, the World’s Foremost Problem”. Ford refused to copyright it because it because he felt it was vital that everyone have free access to the information. The entire series can be read here
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/Intl_Jew_full_version/ijtoc_. htm

- Some comments from Napoleon: “One cannot improve the character of the Jews by arguments. For them must be established special exclusive laws...Since the times of Moses the Jews were oppressors or usurers…All the talent of Jews is concentrated on predatory acts...They have a creed which blesses their thievings and misdeeds..The Jews ought to be forbidden to make trade, as are forbidden the goldsmiths, who forge a lower kind of gold things, to continue their work...The Jews are locusts or caterpillars which are devouring France.”

There are similarly amazing things said about Jews by such diverse persons as Voltair, Nietzsche, Luther, Marx, Wagner, Twain and many, many others. I would opine that the greatest minds in history have noted malicious patterns of behavior in the Jewish community (generally speaking). Many prominent Jews have admitted it.

More Liberianisms...
"This was the primary philosophy in American until the Spanish American war..."

Actually, the Monroe Doctrine dates to December 2, 1823. THAT is an interventionalist policy. Monroe, by the way, is a Founder and a contemporary of Washington.

"Can't you stop and think and see that war is to be avoided as much as possible."

Tell it to the Hitlers and Stalins and Saddams who start them.

Indeed, I think our responses to foreign aggression in the form of war take place generally when most other options have been exhausted. The Just War Doctrine dictates that war always be the last resort. Unfortunately, this is a big world with lots of people and the last resort is often resorted to out of necessity.

"The proof in the pudding came when he turned away from Britain and attacked Stalin."

He turned away from Britain because the Luftwaffe was unable to achieve air superiority over England because it lost the Battle of Britain.




As this discussion...
...seems unfortunately to have degenerated into a discussion of "evil Jewry", I take my leave of it.

The idea that jews were behind international communism (and that other ethnicities played a much reduced role) when they were prominent bankers, investors and businessmen is just ridiculous.

Sure, some were. So were some Chinese and Russians, Americans, Germans, Spanish, blah, blah, blah.

But to suggest that an ENTIRE ethnic group RENOWNED for their business acumen, wealth, and industriousness were one mass cabal working to advance an ideology that was the ANATHEMA to private accumulation of wealth is just so much crap.

Citizen
Doesn't it seem awfully strange that Hitler "failed" to beat Britian so he turned around and invaded the USSR? Could it be that Hitler just wanted the USSR more than Britain? Could it not be that Hitler would have never attacked Britain if Britian had not declared war against Germany?

History records that Hitler was shocked and scared when he first learned that Britain and France actually declared war against Germany. he thought he was going to get away with the Poland think like he did everything else. I doubt he really wanted war with Britain, although he was happy to get revenge on France for WWI (and many French actually allied with Germany).

Liberius - Oil
While I agree with much that I have read, I must disagree on one big point. The war in Iraq was certainly about oil. Ask the people who are actually in Iraq fighting in our military, and that is what they will tell you. They are fighting to maintain our standard of living in the United States by ensuring that the oil flow remains steady to the rest of the world.

While we do not currently purchase much oil from the Middle East (most of it comes from Venezuela and Mexico), it still has an effect on the price that we pay for oil. Iraq was never a serious threat to our security in regard to terrorism, though it made a good excuse to sell to the American people. The fact is that the primary reason why we are so heavily involved in the Middle East is because our economy depends so completely upon oil. Until this fact is changed, there will always be pressure to remain in the region.

Citizen
You strike me as a reasonable and honorable American. If you read the things that I read you would know that Jews are overwelmingly the ones responsible for communism. I never claimed that the "entire" ethnic group was behind it but it is a fact that Jewish involvment was extremely disporoportionate and primary.

Powerful Jewish bankers from New York lent money to help the communist revolution succeed. Karl Marx and Freidric Engel who wrote the Communist Manefesto were ethnic Jews as were 80% of the commisars of the early Soviet Union. There is so much more to say.

Citizen: if you want to have your world rocked, read this short article by Winston Churchill:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html

Khomar
The reason I say it was not about oil is because by going to war with Iraq (twice) it never resulted in us getting more oil or cheaper oil but the REVERSE is true. When OPEC embargoed us Saddam did not. He was more reliable to sell us oil than most of the others in the Middle East (ME). We had been allies with him prior to '91. We helped him with intelligence and chemical warfare as he attacked our enemy, Iran. He was against the Muslim extremists in the area. When we attacked Iraq in '91 then actually resulted in Iraq NOT BEING ABLE to sell ANY oil for a long time and then we allowed him to produce a little.

If the war was about oil then we are true idiots because the war greatly interupted the free-flow of oil and our actions greatly increased the price of oil. I believe we have acted unwisely but I don't think we are that stupid.

If oil was really our main interest then we should have just allowed Saddam to do what he wanted because he was a more reliable seller of oil to us.

Jews and communism
The following is just a tiny sample of the PROOF. The link at the end contains much more:

Robert Wilton, a long time Russia correspondent for the London Times, said in his book The Last Days of the Romanovs "According to the data furnished by the Soviet press, out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik State . . .there were in 1918-1919: 17 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Lets, 15 Germans, 1 Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 2 Poles, 2 Finns, 1 Karaim, 457 Jews.
As the decades past by--after the fateful year 1917--Judaized Khazars kept a firm hand on the helm of the government in the occupied land of Russia. In due time they built a bureaucracy to their heart's desire."

"The Communist soul is the soul of Judaism. Hence it follows that, just as in the Russian revolution the triumph of Communism was the triumph of Judaism, so also in the triumph of fascism will triumph Judaism." (A Program for the Jews and Humanity, Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 143-144).

The American Hebrew September 10, 1920 "The Bolshevist revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction, and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental and physical forces, become a reality all over the world."

Mr. Summers, US Consul General in Moscow on May 2, 1918 sent a telegram to the Secretary of State in Washington DC saying in part: "Jew predominant in local Soviet government, anti-Jewish feeling growing among population which tends to regard oncoming Germans as delivereers."

http://wake-up-america.net/jews_and_communism__part_1.htm

Leberius
See - its not really very hard to push a jew hater over the brink - keep ranting.

Liberius
See - its not really very hard to push a Jew-hater over the brink - keep up the rants - I doubt you'll notice your audience has dwindled, so long as there is a jew to rant against.

Rick
I tend to doubt that you are a Jew, and if so, you don't have any idea of what you are talking about. On the otehr hand, if you are Jewish or if you really think you know what you are talking about then engage me. Show me how I, Winston Churchill, Henry Ford, Charles Linbergh, Martin Luther and so many other pillars of Western Civilization are wrong about the Jewish enthnic group.

Robert
Sorry, but it's not my fault that the truth is distasteful. It's not my fault that Jews have been so extremely disproportionate in their involvement of Left-wing radical and subversive movements.

Is this my fault?
"The Communists are against religion (Christianity), and they seek to destroy religion; yet, when we look deeper into the nature of Communism, we see that it is essential nothing else than a religion (Judaism)." (A Program for the Jews and Humanity, Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 138).
__________

"The Jews welcome this revolution in the Christian world, and the Jews should show an example. It is not an accident that Judaism gave birth to Marxism, and it is not an accident that the Jews readily took up Marxism: all this was in perfect accord with the progress of Judaism and the Jews." (A Program for the Jews and Humanity, by Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 148).

"The world revolution which we will experience will be exclusively our affair and will rest in our hands. This revolution will tighten the Jewish domination over all other people." - Le Peuple Juif, February 8, 1919. "The governments of the peoples included in this world republic, with the aid of the victorious proletariat, all will fall without difficulty into Jewish hands. Private property will then be strangled by the Jewish directors, who will administer the state patrimony everywhere. Thus the promise of the Talmud will be fulfilled, that is, the promise that the Jews, at the arrival of the Messiah, will possess the key to the wealth of all the peoples of the earth." - Baruch Levy, in a letter to Karl Marx, published in the Rothschild controlled La Revue de Paris, June 1, 1928.

http://wake-up-america.net/jews_and_communism__part_2.htm

eh, nothing else to do
Khomar...

"The war in Iraq was certainly about oil. Ask the people who are actually in Iraq fighting in our military, and that is what they will tell you."

That's odd. I was over there in 2005 and I don't say it. Don't recall anybody in my company saying it either. Going back over after Christmas and I'm still not saying it.

"They are fighting to maintain our standard of living in the United States by ensuring that the oil flow remains steady to the rest of the world."

If that were our motivation, we could have achieved this without any fighting at all. It would've been a simpler, cheaper matter to merely lift the oil embargo or pretend we didn't notice "Oil for Food" was a complete sham.

There was no need to depose Saddam if all we wanted was Iraqi oil back on the market.

Indeed, the fact we used so many soldiers to safeguard the oil production facilities of Iraq immediately during the liberation suggests we were well aware of the danger to those facilities.

If oil was the motivation, why would we undertake a course of action that could place oil production at risk? Those facilities weren't in danger under Saddam.

All of this suggests we had other motivations...

Liberious
A little advice.

When you go on and on about international Jewish cabals and conspiracies, people tend to tune out.

It happened to Buchanan. He used to be a prominent Republican. He wrote a book, the press got hold of it, now he's a nobody.

You can ask "is this my fault?" as much as you please, but when you are the one who introduced the topic here, you can hardly blame somebody else for it when people begin to dismiss you out of hand.

Citizen
Khomar is not here. Why can you not address me?

Citizen
I am quite aware that people are close-minded when it comes to the Jewish issue. I cannot help it. I feel a moral obligation to inform people about what I have learned. Both Jews and Gentiles need to me better educated about the realities that I'm talking about.

Nobody really understands anything about history, politics, law, war, sociology etc unless they first understand the Jewish mind.

Liberious
"Khomar is not here. Why can you not address me?"

Because five of your last six posts have been on a subject in a tone I find fantastical and disagreeable. A subject almost as "enthralling" as discussing who "really" killed Kennedy or what "really" happened on 9/11.

Speaking of conspiracies...

"Doesn't it seem awfully strange that Hitler 'failed' to beat Britian so he turned around and invaded the USSR?"

No. And I wouldn't put failed in quotation marks. This line of "reasoning", as it were, assumes incorrectly that the actions of the Nazis were motivated by logical thought processes and clear reasoning. Just because they had a reputation for efficiency doesn't mean their actions were defined by logic. They were efficiently illogical.

"History records that Hitler was shocked and scared when he first learned that Britain and France actually declared war against Germany."

He was shocked and scared even after Britain and France TOLD him they'd do that if he invaded Poland? Who has the nerve to be shocked and scared when somebody does exactly what they told you they would do? Not only was he illogical, but he was an idiot as well.

Liberious
"The Jews needed a homeland but there were plenty of better places for it such as Madagascar, which was the original Nazi plan."

The Madagascar Plan was formulated around 1938. It wasn't put into motion until 1940, with some Nazis hoping that the defeated British Navy would be available to transport the Jews to Madagascar. Again, more of their efficient but illogical thought processes.

But that was 1938. Here's what Hitler said on the subject of his "plan" for the Jews in 1922 with Josef Hell.

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job.

As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows.

Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible.

As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"

Man, am I really SICK of this topic...

Citizen
I used quotes because it could be rationally argued that Hitler really did not prefer war with Britain all along since 1) Britian declared war against Germany first, 2) Hitler wanted to attack USSR and not use resources going in the other direction, and 3) Rudolph Hess (2nd in command to Nazi Germany) parachuted into Britain on a peace mission. The fact that Britain kept Hess locked away until his suicide just years ago without allowing any interviews supports this reasoning. Hitler was a madman who believed the Brits were bluffing over Poland. He was primarily to blame for the war, but I think war with him could have and should have been avoided by Britian and the U.S.

We lowered our principles by siding with the USSR which invaded Poland pursuant to a joint plan that Hitler had with Stalin (the Non-Agression Pact). FDR had a very cozy and inappropriate relationship with communists.

As for the Jews, how do you explain the Churchill article?

THE PROBLEM WITH EMPIRES

.....A countries resources get stretched too thin and it collapses from within ...check the histories of the Roman and British Empires ...

.....There is only one way to end war ...make the alternative unthinkable ...read Colossus by D.F. Jones .....COLOSSUS

Citizen
When I give you quotes I furnish both a link and a citation. Could you do they same? I'm curious about the quote you included. I never saw it before but I don't necessarily doubt it.

One of the most facinating issues of all time I think is the considerable evidence that Hitler himself was part Jewish.

baseballdoc writes:
"THE PROBLEM WITH EMPIRES

.....A countries resources get stretched too thin and it collapses from within ...check the histories of the Roman and British Empires ..."

I'll echo this. It appears to many conservatives think this is a.o.k. for the US to police the world, nation build because it is full of good intentions. But God forbid that Hillary gets into the white house because she might institute more spending with national health care...also a marvelous intention.


Both sides of the isle represent big federal government and massive spending. Both think they are God.




suzerose
You ask what and whose interests are our military bases protecting in foreign countries?
The short answer: OURS.


You say they're not there for "wholesome" reasons. No, they're there for stricly serious reasons. In case you didn'y know, in no case are they part of the governments in the countries they're in, in fact are there at the invitation of those countries (it's called mutual self interest).
It has nothing to do with empire. If you think that's not so, spell out why.


As for media "getting back to reporting news instead of administration bs": that makes me laugh. I don't know what newscasts you're listening to, but it appears to me they're none too eager to report anything positive about this administration. Even when they've lied about it, they don't rush to set the record straight.
When exactly were you hearing all this unbiased news? In the 90's presumably, when the press did have a love affair with the white house?

American Empire
is a propaganda, as is American Imperialism.
Nothing more.
How many countries belong to us?
How many have we defeated in war that are now part of the US?

Liberious
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm

That's where I got the Hitler quote. And I do NOT appreciate having to engage in discussions where I have to do Google searches with keywords like "Hitler" and "Jews".

"1) Britian declared war against Germany first"

Yes, after having given due notice that an act of aggression upon Poland, which had done Germany no harm or ill intent, would mean war. Germany attacking Poland was Germany's way of saying "Okay" to war with Britain. I happen to be of the opinion that it is just and fitting that the strong stand up for the weak.

"2) Hitler wanted to attack USSR and not use resources going in the other direction"

In fact, Hitler delayed Operation Barbarossa even further by diverting divisions to Greece to salvage Italy's disastrous attempt to subjugate Greece. For someone who didn't want to divert resources away from Russia, he certainly did a lot of it.

Liberious
"3) Rudolph Hess (2nd in command to Nazi Germany) parachuted into Britain on a peace mission. The fact that Britain kept Hess locked away until his suicide just years ago without allowing any interviews supports this reasoning."

This is perhaps the weakest argument so far. Hess's title of Deputy to Hitler, by the time of WWII was just that. A title. He had been largely marginalized by the prominence of Himmler, Goebbels and Goering. By the time of his "mission" to Britain, he likely wasn't even as influential as Bormann.

Few in Nazi Germany took him seriously. If I recall Shirer's book (which I probably haven't read in 15 years), most party officials considered Hess something of a crank because he continued to take Nazi occultism seriously.

And Britain did NOT keep Hess arrested and isolated all those years. In the early 1970s both France and Britain petitioned the Soviets to have Hess released. The Soviets, not Britain, refused. Such was the nature of "Four Party" authority.

Allied interrogators considered Hess to be mentally ill.

Eugene K. Bird was Hess's companion at Spandau Prison (Hess was the last and sole prioner there) and wrote a book titled "The Loneliest Man in the World: The Inside Story of the 30-Year Imprisonment of Rudolf Hess", which would qualify in MY book as an interview of sorts, as it related Bird's time with Hess.

Thus your statement that Hess wasn't allowed to do interviews is patently inaccurate.

Bases
Does the US have leases on the Bases in Germany or Japan? I know that the Bases we have in Bermuda were part of the Lend Lease agreement. What will happen in 2040 or thereabouts with Bermuda?

I might also add...
...that somebody like Hitler, who's primary focus you claim to be the destruction of Soviet communism, would've been better served by enlisting Poland into the German cause rather than invading them.

As Hitler did with Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Finland. For surely the Poles had little reason to love the Russians either. Polish armies equipped with German aircraft, tanks and artillery would surely have been of more use than they were otherwise.

Clearly, Hitler was ultimately concerned more with land grabs than he was with eradicating communism.

The 'Net is not an USmerican Fiefdom
"what exactly is a 'government school'?"

There are, in USmerica, at least three levels of government, and in many places, four or more.

The feds run but one of them. The state is another, counties are governments, and cities yet another. In many states, school districts are a fifth.

A school is a government school if it is owned, operated, and funded by any level of government.

In England and other English-speaking countries, a "public school" is owned and operated by private entities, and "state" or "government schools" are those controlled by the government.

To avoid confusion among the wide range of readers on the 'net, I use the term government-run, tax-funded (grtf, aka welfare) schools.

I cannot answer as to why other people use the term "government school", but it seems the first reason above would be sufficient.

Government controls the curriculum.

Government dictates that all children be in attendance when it says they must be there.

Government sets the minimum bar anyone wanting to be a teacher must pass.

Government determines how much a child's education costs, and who must pay.

Government demands that parents cede their children to its indoctrination, whether the parents agree with that philosophy or no.

They are government schools.

No pretended good resulting from grtf-
welfare school begins to balance the
horrific costs they impose on teachers,
taxpayers, and students and their
families.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Why does Hungary matter?
Aside from Attila the Hun, (the assasination of) Archduke Ferdinand, and Marshall Tito, Hungary has been insignificant in world events. Yet today 3 guys were arrested in that nation for selling some enriched Uranium to some undercover good guys(NATO). This tells me that the average Hungarian has access to enriched uranium and they can sell it at low prices.

Or was that Yugoslavia
They all look the same to me.
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