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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Rich Aren't Made of Money
by Jonah Goldberg
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"The question is, should we be giving an extra $120 billion to people in the top 1 percent?"

So asked Gene Sperling, Hillary Clinton's chief economic advisor, at a recent National Press Club panel discussion. Translation: It's the government's money, and anything left over after Uncle Sam picks your pockets is a "gift."

Indeed, to hear leading Democrats talk about the "richest 1 percent" - a diverse cohort of investors, managers, entrepreneurs and, to be sure, some fat-cat heirs - one gets the impression that wealthy Americans are a natural resource, to be pumped for as much cash as we need.

Further, the Democrats don't think that well will ever run dry. "I no more believe that the hedge-fund managers are going to quit working at billion-dollar hedge funds because tax rates go up 5 percent than Alex Rodriguez will quit playing baseball because they put in a salary cap," Austan Goolsbee, Barack Obama's economics guru, said Friday.

This sort of thing used to be a staple of the hard left. "Look at the wealth of America, weigh its resources, feel its power," wrote the editors of The Nation back in 1988, endorsing presidential candidate Jesse Jackson's extravagant public spending plan. "There's enough money in this country to do everything Jackson asks, and more."

But now this vision simply defines liberal economics. John Edwards' unending campaign for president is based on the idea that there are two Americas and everyone will be better off when un-rich America mugs rich America. According to Democrats, it's greedy to want to keep your own money, but it's "justice" to demand someone else's.

Michael Boskin, Rudy Giuliani's economic advisor, said, "There is no - let me repeat - no example in the last quarter-century of a large, complex economy that has been successful with high taxes." He added: "The Western Europeans have seen their standards of living decline by 30 percent in a little more than a generation because of their high taxes." The U.S., meanwhile, has outperformed the competition over the last quarter-century.

I'm with Boskin. But I think there's a more pressing issue. What does it do to a democracy when people see government as something only other people should pay for?

Let's take seriously for a moment the notion that rich people are an inexhaustible army of Energizer bunnies that just keep going and going, no matter what taxes you throw in their path. You can see where Democrats get this idea, after all. The top 1 percent of wage earners already provide nearly 40 percent of federal income tax revenues. The bottom 50 percent of taxpayers contribute only about 3 percent.

Taxes are a necessary evil. But their silver lining is that they foster a sense of accountability and reciprocity between the taxpayer and the tax collector. Indeed, democracy is usually born from this relationship. Widening prosperity brings a rising middle class, which in turn demands the rule of law, incorrupt bureaucracies and political representation in exchange for its hard-earned money. You might recall the phrase "no taxation without representation."

The one great exception is what development experts call the "oil curse." In countries "blessed" with oil wealth or similar resources, the relationship between the government and the governed gets distorted. These "trust-fund states" (author Fareed Zakaria's term) don't need taxes, so their rulers worry little about representation and accountability, opting instead for paternalism or authoritarianism. Worse, the people are less inclined to see government as their expensive servant and more as their goody-dispensing master.

Today, our politics seem to be suffering from a "rich people curse." We treat the rich like a constantly regenerating pinata, as if they will never change their behavior no matter how many times they get whacked by taxes. And we think everyone can live well off the treats that will fall to the ground forever.

Of course, typical wage earners pay plenty of taxes, but not in ways that foster a sense of reciprocity with the government in Washington. Their biggest federal payment is the regressive payroll tax intended to fund Social Security and Medicare. Even though, as a matter of accounting, these payments are no different from other taxes, they're sold simply as retirement and health insurance programs.

Meanwhile, Democrats keep telling the bottom 95 percent of taxpayers that America's problems would be solved if only the rich people would pay "their fair share" of income taxes. Not only is this patently untrue and a siren song toward a welfare state, it amounts to covetousness as fiscal policy.

I don't know what the best tax rates are, for rich or poor. But I'm pretty sure that it's unhealthy for a democracy when the majority of citizens don't see government as a service they're reluctantly paying for but as an extortionist that cuts them in for a share of the loot.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Where I work...
Blue-collar equipment operators earn good hourly wages and, in busy times, work 90 hours or more per week. Their paychecks are fat, but are ravaged by taxes.

Now the Dims want to take an even larger cut. So much for their concern for working folks.

Watch it!
Whenever Hillary and the Dems say "its more fair"
Keep on your eyes on your wallet you, you know whats coming.

Income vs Earnings
When you're salving away at a 90 hour weeks, and then find out that your still living below the "bread line" where is the incentive to keep working?

In Australia there was an investigation into the late Kerry Packer because despite being Australia's richest man, he lodged a tax return of only $25,000, and despite all the writhings of the Tax Office, it turned out to be entirely legal.

This was a man (like Contrad Black or Rupert Murdoch) who had a massive income, but wasn't actually earning anything because there is no evidence of actual work done (unless three-hour liquid lunches are require work?). This is where the imagery of the rich living of the slavings of the poor originates.

So let's properly distinguish the difference between earnings and income and exempt actual EARNINGS instead.

Serge
"When you're salving away at a 90 hour weeks, and then find out that your still living below the "bread line" where is the incentive to keep working?"

****

I am assuming that you mean "slaving" away.
I would like to know how it is possible to work
90 hours a week, which would mean overtime,
with overtime pay, unless you are self-employed and still live below the "bread Line" (whatever that is). Maybe you need a new job. Or is there
something else you are not telling us.

The Thieving Rich
Were it not for the opportunities our advanced society provided the rich would not exist. That we allow them to keep anything shows our weakness. All they have in truth belongs to us all and should be shared equally. To do less is a betrayal of the collective.Death to the running dog capitalists.

The preceding message was authorized by the Hillary for Empress Campaign. Remember, vote early, vote often.

Slaving Away
If you are a lawyer with more than one large client, and we are, it is entirely possible to work six days a week, 12 hours a day and still fall behind.

Contrary to popular belief, people who make big money work big hours sometimes to make it and they forego most of the so-called WorkLifeBalance that is the GrabbyBaby National Anthem up here, to get it.

Some of the other secretaries in my area are approaching retirement age too, and we talk about what life will be like for these folks when those of us who realize that unless you work in a factory you cannot draw a line between Work and Life that will not shift -- and they find that in fact the work will not be done either by the lawyers or by their staff. Because they were brought up to believe that they can have everything they want and somebody else will pay. And they believe that people who work hard and who do not get on the Goodie Train are stupid.

Wait until they find out that up until now, that was us, saving them from themselves.

Wait til we are all retired in Galts Gulch, laughing at them as they flounder to learn what we learned 50 years ago. TANSTAAFL!

there is only one solution
do away with burdensome tax code and put in a national sales tax on everything with some opt outs at the lower end of income. It will hit the coporations whom the democrats and the republican elites are both protecting from paying their fair share of the tax burden. Any new tax law will have loopholes. 90% of the people in congress are lawyers, do you think they ever really understand the business not the legal consequences of their actions. I don't they are not trained to think about others needs only about is is legal?

Jim Bowie
You are obviously not acquainted with any lawyers nor have you worked in the legal field.

So the next time you are in trouble, why not use your one phone call to call a Hippie or an Actor?

"From each according...
...to his ability,to each according to his need."

Now THAT'S a snappy slogan! Where did I hear it before?

taxation without representation
the only cure is to repeal the 16th ammendment, and go to a fair tax type sales tax system. I propose 18%, where the fed gets 9%, the state gets 6%, and the local gets 3%, period. And they have to learn to live within that. and the states collect the money and pass it on to the federal, rather than the federal doling it out to the states.

Fred
Dreams are good things.

Fair Tax is the only answer
I agree with Fred, we need to stop the insanity and kill the IRS. We need the Fair Tax!!!

Changing behavior
A rich person might not stop making as much money, just like a highly-paid baseball player won't stop playing baseball, but his behavior will be changed nevertheless.

The rich are powerful and influential because they are rich. When they perceive that their taxes are too high, they simply hire lobbyists to get their ecomomic activity tax-deductible. I think Hayek called it "rent-seeking."

"their fair share" is communist
To all of you out there who are clearly not aware of the tax laws and rates, what the government defines as "rich" includes someone making 6 figures, not millions. These people already pay 40% federal tax. On top of that, they also pay social security and medicare tax. Then they pay their state tax and then their city tax. MORE than 50% of their income is taken away as tax. They are already paying more than their fair share. I am not saying that they shouldn't pay more taxes than someone who makes 50k, but they already pay their fair share and then some.

In addition, the democrats concept of distributing the wealth is a communist concept. It is not the government's job to pay for your living.

From an economic perspective, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that those who make more money fuel more money into the economy. If the gove takes that away, they will bring uas back to the recession that is reminiscent of the days of Jimmy Carter.

Socialists condone hypocrisy.

"According to Democrats, it's greedy to want to keep your own money, but it's "justice" to demand someone else's."

Yes, "justice" in the name of "Economic Democracy" (whatever that means) and with all of it's impossible contradictions that take men from being merely hypocrites to passing tax laws with oppressive dictates. I have never met a Democrat who could adequately define the word "justice" in regards to any subject, yet it is commonly used as the motive for their good deeds.

how much money can one person spend ???
Really would the ultra rich be hurt badly if one half of their assets were taken in taxes? would they suffer ?

Taxes are necessary
Might as well buckle your belts and fact the fact that taxes are going to have to go up. The deficit is at 9 trillion, and we are borrowing 133 Million every day just to keep the war going.
"it's unhealthy for a democracy when the majority of citizens don't see government as a service they're reluctantly paying for but as an extortionist that cuts them in for a share of the loot"

The writer has got that right.
This administration has extorted money we don't have to pay for something to pour it into the black hole of iraq that is yielding absolutely nothing for the investment.

China and other countries who have bought up our bonds to finance this war is starting to dump the dollars for a more stable currency. Which can include any number of countries now. Australian dollar is worth more than ours, The canadian dollar is worth more than ours and the 1 Euro is now worth $1.40 US.

Better wake up and start paying down that debt with TAXES or pay the piper.

A sales tax
Is the answer. And no special dispensations for people at the bottom are needed. The market adjusts for that. One reason salaries for commodity jobs are as low as they are is that the uneven tax burden (to be clear - rich people paying proportunately more and poor - absent the social security tax, nothing) is already factored into the job market.

Communists and socialist complain about how harsh capitalism is. Capitalism isn't harsh - it's an economic system. The graduated income tax just screws with the job market - usually to the detriment of it, but it does provide lots of jobs for accoutants and lawyers, not that there's anything right with that.

Right now, huge amounts of effort by some of our brightest people are wasted in the expenditure of countless unproductive hours. With a single sales tax, salaries of those at the bottom would rise, the very rich would lose their tax loopholes, and bugeting and forcasting would get a lot less complicated.

Tune your Ferrari to specs and you have a brilliant machine. Tinker with it to get a fast, high-milage, pickup truck that will haul a sailboat, while making 1G on the skidpad and you get a psychotic car.

Not that republicans have showered themselves with honor in the last 2 administrations, but democrats want Christine.

90 hours per week ??????????
I always think it a bit amusing when "blue collar" workers think that they are part of the ultra rich.
Also Mr D exactly where d o yo live that blue collar workers are getting thatmany hours ?? Because in the rest of our country that is highly highly unusual. In fact so unusual as to not really worth mentioning.

The only thing that matters
... about taxes is whether they pay off government outlays.

Percentages of income and revenues paid are more economically oppressive the larger they get, but that is the only characteristic by which they are usefully judged.

It is simply not possible to pinpoint some "perfect" taxation rate -- because RATE is the wrong way to assign a tax burden in the first place. A rate implies a prior claim to income, no matter what the income is, and no matter what purpose the confiscated funds are for.

It is never "fair" to say that any person or income group "ought" to hand x % of income to the government. Suppose, for example, that the government doesn't plan to spend that much?

Income tax and payroll withholding have suckered us for too long into the false debate over what percentages are fair. NO percentage is fair. "Fair" is a childish concept in this context anyway. Taxes are properly judged in the context of the size of government, its proper functions, accountability to the public, and government's burden on the economy.

Government has no business even knowing what anyone's income is. Apart from the manufactured need to tax our income on a percentage basis, what valid purpose does it serve for government to track our incomes? Think outside the box.

The Oppressed Oligarchy
I had no idea America's rich were suffering so much. Perhaps they should run an ad campaign in major media to call attention to their plight. Something along the lines of "You can provide additional tax relief to this poor zillionaire or you can turn the page."

John
So who would decide how much is "enough"?
Maybe I could be the one to decide how much you "ought" to have.
That's a slippery slope my friend.

The Rich
Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded--here and there, now and then--are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as “bad luck.”

Robert Heinlein, 1973

Fair tax my clavicle

A "fair" tax has been described as a tax that someone else pays. As long as taxes are subject to deductions, credits and exemptions there will never be a fair tax.

A tax code so complicated that taxpayers have to hire a tax consultant will never be fair.

If we are all equal under the law how can the tax code tax at different rates? If each of us has the same responsibility to society perhaps a single rate with no deductions, no credits, no excuses for all taxpayer should be considered. That would also me no IRS, no tax consultants, no class warfare and no tax returns. This idea just may work if fairness is the goal, the idea will immediately be rejected if political favor and power is the goal.

Response to How much can one person
spend? Comment ---

Let's see, i know a guy who is a millionaire. He spends money on charities that help people...money that he would not have if the government took another 20% of his income. His money goes where he sees that it is needed locally and where he is able to actually see the benefits.

This gentleman also provides employment for over 100 people in my area, and provides services that several thousand people in my area utilize... a good deal of his money goes to hiring and retaining good employees and reinvesting much of his profits back into the companies he runs so that he can service more people. So you tell me how much can one man spend? He's not spending it on himself -- that's for sure!!!

Comment to Goldberg
"I don't know what the best tax rates are, for rich or poor. But I'm pretty sure that it's unhealthy for a democracy when the majority of citizens don't see government as a service they're reluctantly paying for but as an extortionist that cuts them in for a share of the loot."

I can honestly say I am not sure exactly what you
are saying in your final paragraph of this column.

But if we are talking about extortionist behavior, I will tell you what I read on the airplane last month. It was about yet another CEO of a major
corporation who got his walking papers because, well, he wasn't quite up to snuff, and with these
walking papers he had a sweet little severance
package worth a couple of hundred million
dollars. NOw, once upon a time I would have
remembered what company he was associated with, but it seems so routine these days, it's just another incident.

Maybe you can guess just how much I bleed over
the plight of these guys.


tish
"Let's see, i know a guy who is a millionaire. He spends money on charities that help people...money that he would not have if the government took another 20% of his income. His money goes where he sees that it is needed locally and where he is able to actually see the benefits."

Do you know what. I am sure that people like this
exist. But he seems just a little convenient and
perfect for me to believe that you know him.

Call me jaded.

The rich and their enemies
In addition to Texas Tom's Heinlein quote, I have noticed that whenever a country slides into despotism they always start by going after 'the rich'.

The answer is...
to junk the existing system. How does one even define "fair share" in the existing system. Distributions of the tax load over the income percentiles do not define fairness. How does one have any say in the number if taxpayers in his income percentile?

The only fair system is one that taxes consumption. People with more will pay more because they consume more ... and they have a choice. If you don't consume, you don't pay the tax.

Lemonade

Lemonade writes:


Wow, if you don't understand what Mr. Goldberg is saying in that paragraph, you're really part of the problem. And not the sharpest tool in the shed.

As for you anecdote about the CEO, all it shows is that you really don't understand the operation of a free market. A CEO's severance package isn't extortion by any sense of the word. CEOs take on enormous risks and responsibilities and good CEOs are tremendously talented and capable individuals. They can literally make or break a corporation. They often work very long, high-stress hours and really sacrifice their family lives. Sure, the CEO of my company doesn't sit around next to me writing code, but he does a job I'm not equipped to do -- managing investors, employees, market perceptions, and being the guy who has to make the tough decisions that influence the course of the company.

When company boards of directors offer CEOs high wages and severance packages, they're generally doing so with the company's profitability and success in mind. While the numbers may sound huge to you, they're the numbers the market demands to get a CEO with a talent to manage the company in question and take the risks involved.

The salaries and severance packages are usually a drop in the bucket compared to the company valuations and revenue numbers that the CEO is dealing with. Boards of directors simply wouldn't pay that much if they didn't feel they were gettings their money's worth. They could always find some schmuck to agree to be CEO for $100k/year, but you get what you pay for.

CEOs and corporations have lived more people out of poverty and enriched more lives than every government program put together. Governments don't create prosperity. Free, healthy businesses and entrepreneurs create prosperity.

chicaree: A real failure of a war
“The writer has got that right.
This administration has extorted money we don't have to pay for something to pour it into the black hole of iraq that is yielding absolutely nothing for the investment.”

Actually, the mostly-male American taxpayer base continues to fund a REAL failure of a war. The pro-feminist “WAR on Poverty” funding level is over four (4) times (i.e., $1.4T annually) what we currently are spending on the GWOT. The “investment” in Iraq generates a “terrorist vacuum cleaner” that has prevented another terrorist attack in the last 7 years in contrast to generating feminist entitlement in perpetuity.

It Takes A village!!!???
See Paddy's new parody on Hillary...my blog.

To John:
John Wrote:

"how much money can one person spend ???

Really would the ultra rich be hurt badly if one half of their assets were taken in taxes? would they suffer ?" (sic)

John, I like your thinking. In fact, I was down to the Walmart just this morning and I saw a new TV that I liked, and really, is it going to hurt the Waltons that much if I just take it? So, I took it. That's okay, isn't it? They won't suffer, sill they?

to chicaree
What you refere to as "the black of Iraq" yielding NOTHING as a return on investment makes me think you live in a black hole. Is the future of this planet, humanity, and freedom not a worthy investment to you?

If you are so unhappy with the guts of the current administration to do what is right, why don't you pack your bags and go live somewhere else. The beauty of a free country is that you don't have to stay. No one is forcing you to live here.

I will leave you with more thought. If the world had not intervened and allowed Hitler to continue his tirade, we would all either not be here or we'd be speaking German. Think about that.

How folks can't understand
that our lovely system discourages, achievement, and the accumulation of wealth so the gov't is not needed as much later in life is beyond me.

The Democrat Party champions mediocrity! Period!

King Joe Biden said it all. To paraphrase: the money you take home from your paycheck is the government's investment in you!

Huh? Are you kidding me? Who buys into this stuff?

Democrat's Tax Plan
I have recently entered the top 5% of wage earners. I did not change careers. I left the Army after 12 years of service. So, what do the Democrats want to do after I have mde several sacrifices in the service of my country? Label me as the evil rich and tax me into poverty. Well, I already have a plan. Instead of working 55-60 hours a week the whole year as an anesthesiologist, and having up to if not over 50% of my income stolen by Government, I stop working. Instead of spending thousands of hours for nothing taking care of the sick, I'll take time to relax and spend with family. Either way I will net the same amount in the end. I must say that it is a great plan the Democrats have. Punish those who actually contribute to society and those who create wealth. And reward those who live off of government hand-outs like parasites.

Lemonade
... builds the following case:

"'Let's see (quoting tish), i know a guy who is a millionaire. He spends money on charities that help people...money that he would not have if the government took another 20% of his income. His money goes where he sees that it is needed locally and where he is able to actually see the benefits.'

"Do you know what. I am sure that people like this exist. But he seems just a little convenient and perfect for me to believe that you know him.

"Call me jaded."

Dear jaded: your jadedness is not actionable for the rest of us, or for the basis of public policy. State policy needs to be based on something more than jaded suspicion.

This is one good reason we have age requirements for political leaders. Cynicism is the easiest, least costly, and least useful thing to maintain -- any untutored adolescent can do it. Of far more value is knowing what human history has proven to be true, good, effective, and reliable. It's much greater wisdom to recognize and promote the good than to suspect the bad. It's higher payoff. It's also more work.

Taxpayer Choice Act 2007
Search for the Taxpayer Choice Act of 2007 (HR 3818). Summary at http://www.house.gov/hensarling/rsc/doc/tpcactdetailedsumm ary.pdf

It would:

1) Repeal the AMT

2) Make permanent the 2003 capital gains tax cuts

3) Allow taxpayers to choose to remain in the current federal income tax system or to switch to the following:

Personal deduction $12,500 per taxpayer (so $25,000 married filing jointly)

$3,500 personal exemption for each dependent (e.g. $14,000 for a family of four)

No other deductions at all. NONE.

10% federal income tax on all taxable income up to $50,000 per taxpayer (so up to $100,000 married filing jointly).

25% FIT on all taxable income over that.

Brackets, deductions, and exemptions adjusted yearly by the CPI.

Projected government revenue remains the same as the current tax system. Tax burden by income quintile remains nealry constant, too.

All that changes is that filing your return becomes a five minute exercise rather than a five hour or day exercise.

The bill is in committee right now.

DVangura
Well put. That's exactly what happens in socialized systems. People stop working. Altogether, eventually.

Just a note: John could probably tell you how much money it's right for you to have.

DVangura
Thank you for your service to our country.

You are entitled to keep what you earned. so keep the democrats out of office.

Taxpayer Choice Act 2007
To Tim:

Clearly you don't live in NY where the average price of a fixer upper home is now 700k. The mortgage interest alone is more than 12500. Folks could not pay their mortgage if they can't deduct the interest. And, this doesn't even include the property taxes which is in the thousands.

Tax wealth. not income
The Fair Tax proposal in the House and Senate makes the most sense to me. You're only taxed on what you spend. The "evil rich" spend lots of money on consumer products.

It does away with all federal witholding taxes, doesn't tax interest or capital gains.

check it out at fairtax.org.

Warren Buffett's Tax Rate...

...in 2006 was 17.7% on $46,000,000 of income. Is that rate higher or lower than yours?

.

The Fair Tax

Is an interesting idea, with two fatal flaws:

1. The AARP, the nation's most powerful lobby would die fighting it. This is because retired people would have spent their entire working lives having their earnings taxed before they could save it, only to start having their savings taxed again in retirement as they consume it.

2. Middle class (that's most of us) taxes would increase.

.

DVangura
Sounds like you got out just in time; any more time in and you might have become institutionalized. I thought I worked hard in the Navy; I work twice as hard for myself. You might want to back off of the hours and enjoy life some more, though. Happy Vets Day.

BS Detector
I agree about number one. As a group, the seniors are amazingly obtuse in their "I want what is coming to me" attitude, not caring to the point of being willing to wreck the economy to keep the Ponzi scheme known as SS going. They will fight any meaningful change even if it benefits them (no taxes on SS income). As far as number two is concerned, you are incorrect. Read the Fair Tax book. Anyone that is frugal will be way ahead, the spendy people already are overextended and won't change, they will just be paying more in taxes on expensive items that they never needed anyway. Read the book.

John
John said, "how much money can one person spend ??? Really would the ultra rich be hurt badly if one half of their assets were taken in taxes? would they suffer ?"

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But the rest of us would suffer.

Punish the rich and productive and reward losers, we get more losers and we all become poorer.

Ronsch said, "Over the last 40 years wealth has begun to concentrate in the hands of a few."

I don't know where you get your info, Ronsch but I read about a study of income mobility by the Treasury Department that shows it just ain't so. Check it out: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=11 0010855

CVN65 wrote:

"As far as number two is concerned, you are incorrect. Read the Fair Tax book. Anyone that is frugal will be way ahead, the spendy people already are overextended and won't change, they will just be paying more in taxes on expensive items that they never needed anyway."

I've read up on it. I understand it. It's an intriguing idea with merit. However, I think it can't help but produce increases in tax on the middle class. Why? Because it decreases taxes on the wealthy. As we've all seen in other columns, the top 1% currently pay 40% of all federal income tax (note, doesn't include payroll taxes). If this number comes down, and the poor pay little or nothing, and the replacement is revenue-neutral, taxes in the middle have to go up. I'd love to see a more thorough analysis than the back-of-the-napkin I've done, but from 10,000 feet there doesn't appear to be any way around this.

.

a radical idea
"No taxation without representation" should be a 2 way street. Is it worth pursuing to consider lowering the overall tax rate by 5% across the board, and then telling citizens that the nation is going to restricted franchise: only those who are willing to pay taxes that account for at least 5% of their gross per year, or 1% of their total accumulated value (whichever is higher) get the vote, since they pay the taxes. Each tax return would have a question box "do you want to vote?" that would automatically increase the withheld tax to the limits listed above.

Most people above the median income would automatically fall into this amount. The poor can have the option of voting if they are willing to give of their income without exemptions. Those who are able or willing to support the system chose the leaders. Those who would rather be parasites get no say.

Does this sound workable?

Tim -

I've got another suggestion. Treat capital gains and dividends the same as other income in exchange for a decrease in the corporate income tax such that revenue capital income taxation (corporate tax + capital gains/dividend tax) remains fairly constant. Effects:

1. Eliminates the appearance that the wealthy pay less because most of their income is capital gains.

2. Improves companies' ability to draw capital, increases profitability.

3. Simplifies your simple tax code even further.

.

BS Detector
Actually seniors will do ok with the Fair Tax because their SS won't be taxed....for the third time. Talk about a scam. You pay SS. Your employer pays SS. Then you get YOUR money on largely an interest free loan, and BAM....it gets taxed as income. Huh? At least with the Fair Tax they'll only pay what they spend. They won't get banged out on their IRA's and pensions either BEFORE they get their money.

Abolish the IRS?
Well, no one likes taxes especially Ron Paul. It's interesting how our country did fine without a personal income tax until 1913 - the same year the Federal Reserve was created to "manage" our monetary system and maintain the value of our currency.

The progression to no personal income tax would be gradual under a Paul administration. As we reduce our foreign aid and strengthen our military (yes you heard that right) the estimated first year savings will be at least 200 billion. It will only get better after that.

At some point, several years down the road, the complete abolishment of the personal income tax may be possible. Go to ronpaullibrary.org for the details if you are interested.

Rich taxpayers
John, (from about 11:00 this a.m.) The problem is not that taxes take away what the "rich" might spend. The problem is that confiscatory taxes take away what would otherwise be invested in the economy, which is how economies grow. "Taxing the rich" sounds appealing to a certain sort of person. Taxing the growth plate of our economy has a good deal less shine on it.

Taxes and ANWR
I wish the liberals/socialists would take the same zeal they have about not drilling in ANWR (and other places) and apply it not drilling everyone for taxes.


Is the tax system fair?
Warren Buffett’s Tax Rate is Lower than His Secretary’s?

WATCH VIDEO


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/warren-buffetts-ta x-rate-is-lower-than-his-secretarys

Seriously?
How incredibly laughable this clown has become...or has always been.

The point is, for Jonah "I live off my parents fortune" Goldberg to suggest that repealing the tax cut for the wealthy is akin to the poor mugging the rich is EXACTLY why the Right is currently going down in flames. Even a Congress too timid to play hardball with the vastly unpopular GOP and the failure in chief is STILL backed by the majority when it comes down to chosing who should run this country.

Don't you righties GET IT? The days of cheerleading the filthy rich, power hungry and selfish lunatics is over.

elong wrote:
"Actually seniors will do ok with the Fair Tax because their SS won't be taxed....for the third time..."

All income is subject to tax multiple times. Federal, State, and perhaps local taxes on the same income, for example.

"Then you get YOUR money on largely an interest free loan, and BAM....it gets taxed as income..."

I'm starting what will be a fruitless and academic argument, but this is incorrect. It's not "YOUR money." Social Security isn't a retirement plan, with the government holding the money until you retire. It is, and always has been, a distribution from current earners to the old and infirm. There are big problems with how the payments have been inflated through the years, and I've got ideas about how to fix it, but that's all for another day/column/thread.

"At least with the Fair Tax they'll only pay what they spend."

Look, here's how it's supposed to work: we work our whole lives saving money so that when we're old we don't have to work. Assuming they've done things right, retired people spend more than their incomes, consuming their savings so that with their last breath, they spend their last dollar.

If income is no longer taxed and consumption is taxed instead, retired folks will be taxed on more than just their income. They will be taxed on their income and their savings, which was previously taxed as income.

Look at it this way - under the current system, only income is taxed. Under the "fair tax," only consumption is taxed. If there were a switch in systems, any money saved under the current system would be taxed twice, once as income and once as consumption. The older one is, the more one has saved, the less one has to benefit from the elimination of income tax, the more negative the effect.

Hence the opposition of old folks.

.

It's a game of divide-&-pillage
Whenever they claim they're going after the "rich" they really mean the upper middle class / moderately wealthy whose lifelong work at whatever they do is just beginning to pay off. Those are the ones always blown away by the minefield in the tax code. That's collectively where the real money is.

The truly superwealthy generally don't have 'income' in the conventional sense, so it belongs in a different tax regime. These guys are often the pals of the same career pols always looking to rob us, if not actually themselves (e.g. Kennedys, Rockefellers, etc).

Most of all, though, "rich" is just a strawman to incite class envy & to tell the 'gimmes" that these people will be taxed to pay, for the goodies being promised by Big Sugar Daddy Pork Barrel Welfare State.

Funny how only 'tax cuts' and the military need to be "paid for," while the cost of giveaway programs & pork projects are never questioned. "Deficits" are never due to overspending, but to undertaxation.

Furthermore, there's the false assumption that taxpayer behavior is unchanged by tax rates, therefore raising effective rates will increase revenues proportionately. The dynamics of tax changes on productivity are pointedly ignored by Demmies. There is no justification whatsoever for increasing a tax rate above the point at which revenues decrease instead of increase with each incremental rate increase.

To a lefist-socialist nothing government can do or give away is too expensive so long as the "other guy" can be forced to pay for it. The upper middle class are the perpetual "other guys" viewed as cows to be milked for the emowerment of politicians.

I favor a flat tax because then everyone but the truly poor would pay the same rate, which is as fair as it gets. If you have to raise EVERYBODY's taxes, getting them all PO'd, you'll think twice.

Talisman
Does it not trouble you that there are far more wealthy liberal democrats than in any other party and that they have no intention of redistributing their wealth?

Does it not trouble you that the billions of dollars spent on the "War on Poverty" has yielded no change, and even a worsening of social conditions particularly for black America?

" Don't you righties GET IT? The days of cheerleading the filthy rich, power hungry and selfish lunatics is over"...

I always love it when yet another genius arrives on the scene brandishing his self-righteous ignorance. As a social worker, my job is supported by people who earn incomes. People who earn incomes are employed by those who go into businesses of all vocations/professions. Business people sometimes become rich. Those people are inspired to go into business because they might become rich. Consider me a head cheerleader because I LIKE my government job, and it would not exist without the people you seek to destroy.

Why not troll the pockets and question the generosity of Hollywood stars, Pelosis, Kerrys, Clintons, Kennedys, Rockefellers, Edwards, etc... before harnessing them with the power to pillage those who make society possible?

Don't tread on me
"I favor a flat tax because then everyone but the truly poor would pay the same rate, which is as fair as it gets. If you have to raise EVERYBODY's taxes, getting them all PO'd, you'll think twice"


Our federal and, at least here in NJ, state governments aren't interested in "fair". There is well-entrenched, unaccountable, and expensive bureaucracies and sweetheart deals to finance and perpetuate. Corruption and waste are costly endeavors, and the "greedy" taxpayers support it all. "Greedy" business people; as if the government can't be "greedy"!

I too favor a flat tax- but the varieties of piranha who feed off the incomes of others will churn the waters with cries of "Not Fair", "the children will suffer", "That favors the "rich" ! , blah, blah, blah... Add to them the new generation (and old) of those entirely uneducated in economics who think they are defending the "downtrodden" by depleting the American financial infrastructure, and we have the perfect storm for wide-spread poverty in the not so distant future.

Furthermore, Talisman
When I counsel teens, I like to point them toward a future that includes creativy, industry, and excellence rather than government dependence. There are people who are willing to work 70+ hours per week to build businesses of all sorts, often with the goal of expanding( creating jobs). When those entrepeneurs are taxed out of a given area (as many have been), to whom do I direct kids for mentorship? And now, many businesses CANNOT accept teens for training because lawyers have made it unwise to take risks. Inspiring kids toward the future is increaingly more difficult, thanks to the fallout from lunk-headed liberal ideology.

I read into your post that you seem to think a new day is coming where "the rich" will get some kind of comeuppance. You think as logically as a heard animal given to gnawing off his own legs while thinking he's got somekind of inside information on a super snack that will make him run faster.

Read Bill Cosby's "Come On People"- it should be a text in graduate schools of social work.

cloudbuster
"As for you anecdote about the CEO, all it shows is that you really don't understand the operation of a free market."

This not-so-sharp tool knows this to be true:
1) Those who give out these huge packages are
"friends" who aid and abet each other. There is
a very large amount of crossover on these boards.

2) If they are all so talented and wonderful,
why isn't the pay subject to output. We are
talking two hundred million $ for a guy who got
canned. He must be feeling suicidal, or enjoying
himself in a villa in the South of France.

3) Yes, they do have to consider the stockholders, but the stockholders come second,
the upper management comes first, and workers a
very distant third.

4) Why is it that major companies in other
countries manage to get CEO's whose salary and
benefits have a hugely closer ratio to that of
their workers and still manage to survive, even
thrive.

I know the ravages of unchecked capitalism when
I see it. I would take socialism any day before
I would take an oligarchy. I hope that won't be
necessary

talisman
You write of tax cuts for the rich. I am not aware of this phenomenon. It is my understanding that the amount of taxes that the rich pay has been increasing. Is this not the case? If the rich are paying less could you point me to the source showing that decrease.

Dvangura
I have a couple of problems with your argument.
First of all, how is an anesthesiologist creating
wealth? We appreciate your services, but you
are not creating wealth for anyone but yourself
and perhaps your maid.

How nice that you should be able to get out of
the service and walk into a job that puts you
into the top 5% of the wealthy. I wonder how
many other servicemen can say that?

Last I looked, the going rate for the top end
of the tax bracket was 35%. I also know that,
while many loopholes have been closed over the
years, it is still a rare wealthy person who
doesn't have writeoffs that the average person
does not have. And it is in all likelihood that
it is a rare millionaire that pays 35% of his
actual income to the Feds.

Why don't you just be thankful that you have a
great job, with great pay, and stop your whining.
I'll bet you live very well indeed.

Defeat...
leaks from the demonicRAT party, like stink from a pig.

Couldn't ignore this, viruddh
"How nice that you should be able to get out of
the service and walk into a job that puts you
into the top 5% of the wealthy. I wonder how
many other servicemen can say that?"

Do you understand the training and education that it takes to become an anesthesiologist? How would you like to face the litigation even a single mistake would usher in? This is hardly "walking into" a high paying job. The amount of "other servicemen who can say that" are the amount that pursue the education and credential.

I have had 2 operations and was very pleased that my anesthesiologist made sure that I got the appropriate amount of anesthesia and hope that he makes a handsome living seeing that people survive operations.

oldsocialworker
My, my. How sweet of you to come to the defense
of this poor defenseless man. I am not denigrating this man's profession, or the amount
of work that it took to get there, maybe not even
his salary. I am denigrating his attitude and
his crankiness. I am betting very strongly that
he, of all people, has very little to complain
about, and that really he should be ashamed of
himself.

viruddh
Let me shed some light on what it takes to become a practicing doctor or anesthesiologist. $250,000 of debt at the end of medical school and living at the poverty level while attending school. Then you start working 80+ hours/week as an intern and then a residnet. You are still living at the poverty level during this time. The ACGME did not limit the hours when I went through my training. The loans may be deferred, but they are still acruing interest. You don't start earning a decent income for 3 to 10 years after medical school. That puts most people over 30. Those in family practice or pediatrics can expect to spen $3 to $4 million in loan payments if paid over 20 years. That was the estimate given when I started medical school in 1994.

How do I create weatlth? Yes, I do have a nanny. There is a woman who cleans my house. So here are at least 2 people who have an income because of me. I also INVEST in companies so they have the capital to grow and expand, i.e creat jobs and biulld new products. I guess the owners of these companies are not creating wealth for anyone but themselves too. I can not speak about others, but I also give a good deal of my earnings to charity. I am sure they are not firms you would support. This is one you might consider. http://www.semperfifund.org

I am thankful for what the Lord has given me. I know full well that I can loose everything today. I spent 12 years in the Army and personally know of people who have gave everthing for this Country. I have friends who have died in accident. Maybe you should be thankful that you live in a country where the "evil" rich have done so much for the needy and poor.

Viruddh
No Viruddh, I have nothing to be ashamed of. Nor is oldsocialworker defending me. He is chastising you. I do not know what your problem is other than engaging in class envy. I am assuming from you post that you are at best a tax-and-spend liberal. I feel you should read the Constitution of the United States and pay special attention to Amendment X. You may also do well to read David Crocket's story, Not Yours to Spend. The problem with the Leftist Democrats is they think I belong to them and thus everything I make is theirs. Anything I have after they rake me over the coals is due to their "generosity." What they are doing is no different if I take your money and give it to a homeless man down the street. The only exception is that I go to jail for armed robbery and they are hailed as "kind and caring" Democrats. It does not matter that their programs and policies make things worse. They mean well and feel good about themselves. Start spending your own money on your pet projects and leave mine alone.

Rosa Delauro, D-CT 31st Dist
ET1 writes: Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:25 PM "Rep. David Obey, demonicRAT, OH leaker"

Taft: Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:21 PM
"Mike Thompson, demonicRAT 1st Dist CA...
leaker."

4EYESblind writes: Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:56 PM "Defeat...leaks from the demonicRAT party, like stink from a pig."

I agree with you all. Please feal free to post you favorite (NOT!) leaker.

DVangura
I bet you also pay more per year in malpractice insurance premiums than viruddh's salary.

I remember getting the "over 10" pay raise as a Lieutenant Commander, and discovering that my late father, a radiologist, was paying more than my new salary per year in insurance premiums. He had never been sued, or had the slightest professional stain on his record as a physician, and he practiced in Oklahoma.

- Break -

The bottom line on all this, however, is that it is none of viruddh's business what percentage of income any other person on earth pays in taxes. There is no legitimate basis for any of us to sit in judgment on that.

Wishing don't make it so: we CANNOT base our thinking on envy, and income rage, and achieve anything other than hurt to ourselves. There is no moral value in hating and railing against what other people have. No value is added by cloaking envy and resentment in specious political theories either, or in sanctimonious claims to be crusading on behalf of others.

However you do it, expressing anger that other people are rich is the lowest form of unreconstructed childishness. Get over it.

viruddh
I think you filter feedback/responses only through your internal construct. There isn't alot I can do about that, such an allegiance to the self is rarely penetrable.

At any rate, my attempt was not to "defend" Dangura, as your words reflected short-sightedness rather than attack. Dvangura does something that requires extensive education and training, and entails more risk than many professions. In addition, he can never make a mistake or it can cost someone their life or quality of life due to brain damage.

For example: I chose to pursue a soft science because it did not hold the same work, training intensity, and risk as medicine. I love what I do, but it is not worth the financial compensation that Dvagura's job is. Period. Some occupations are worth more than others for a variety of reasons. I want Dvangura to be good at what he does and well rewarded, because if he isn't, people could die. How plain is that?

But the rich can afford to give more!
Yes, that's an argument that pops up quite a bit.

And the people who oppose it here--conservatives--are not likely people who would be hurt by a tax hike on the higher brackets.

So why do they oppose it?

I guess it's that pesky "principle" again.

Opposing a thing just because you value right over wrong...or merely "practical".

Kind of like building the fence and rounding up illegals for deportation. Yeah, that would be expensive. Difficult. Impractical. All those things.

But sometimes you do things BECAUSE of principle, not because they are easy or cheap.

And did you guys notice...
...that Hillary's chief economic advisor thinks that what you earn through your labor or ideas is really only something the government "gives" you. Nothing more. You are given money only through the government's benevolence and generosity.

That doesn't just illuminate their ideas about taxes and economics. We're talking about how they value the individual. Private property. All the important stuff.

Folks, we've got to keep that woman out of the White House. I mean not even let her in there again as a tourist looking at the china and silverware exhibits. Send her and her brood back to the Ayn Rand novel they seem to have escaped from...

John...
If you're still hanging around, I live in Northwest New Mexico and work for an energy service company. I have seen the guys report for work as early as 2 a.m. I've seen them come to work when it's dark, and get back from the field when it's dark, 16 hours later. They work in the heat, the cold (and it gets very cold here), and in the middle of the night, on Saturdays and Sundays.

It's because of people like them that you stay warm at night. They earn their pay...and the Democrats want to take more and more of it. They are guaranteed a minimum of 70 hours per week and yes, in busy times, will put in 90 hours -- or more.

Government
isn't about making people be good. It's about keeping them from doing evil -- along with paving roads and securing borders. There is an agency in public life charged with the task of shepherding our souls. That would be religion. So rich people, by a conservative understanding, have the right to be pigs. Selfish, I mean, not rude. They have the right to be rude, too, but so do we all. As we all have the right to be selfish. When we come out from behind the benevolent authority of our parents and act as autonomous adults, we can stay up late and eat ice cream for dinner and not share what is ours with anyone else, if we so choose. No government has the right or the legitimate authority so require otherwise.

That's why Hillary is a problem. Just another leftist who wants to be our mommy.

Sure, I'd like to be rich. Money is power, and power is how things get done. I'd buy a classic car for myself, something from the early fifties or very late forties. I'd hire a maid. That's about it, for myself. I'd invest in efficient and effective companies. I'd fund research into topics that interest me. I'd find admirable charities and smooth out the way for them. I'd play around in politics. If some other rich guy just wants to buy toys and date loose woman, that's his business. Hillary should keep her pug nose out of it.

Even rich fools spend money, which keeps the economy humming. It's not like it's all in a mattress somewhere. There aren't really a whole lot of people like me, idealists who value competence, but there are enough to keep the world from going straight to hell. We certainly don't need some bureaucratic theorist to define reality for us. Reality, in such cases, always seems to end up on the painful side of a gun. The government will always have guns, whether or not citizens do. How else would they collect their money?

J

The Oppressed
Excellent article Jonah! As we all know, billionaires are the most powerless, oppressed and downtrodden of all classes in America.

oldsocialworker
I always find your posts articulate and insightful. And they come from someone who knows of what they speak about the disadvantaged and those in poverty.
Anyone who has truly spent any time among them should be able to see that throwing a handout is not the way to truly lift them out of their hole. I think that most liberals haven't really spent much time knowing of what they speak. It bothers me to see posters here who want to label anyone who's conservative as selfish and meanspirited when it comes to the poor and disadvantaged. For the most part they are rather cloistered, it seems to me. I wonder what hands-on experience Lilly and Virrudh have had.
If they'd ever spent some time out on the front lines, like you have. I think they'd understand.
You'd rather send those kids to a job than the welfare office. I commend you.

oldsocialworker wrote:
"Does it not trouble you that there are far more wealthy liberal democrats than in any other party and that they have no intention of redistributing their wealth?"

BS. Do you have even a shred of evidence to back up either of the assertions in this statement?

"Does it not trouble you that the billions of dollars spent on the 'War on Poverty' has yielded no change, and even a worsening of social conditions particularly for black America?"

BS. In the early 1960s, the poverty rate in the U.S. ranged around 20%. By 1971 it had fallen to 11.1%. The "war on poverty" was a profound success.

As for black America, again, consider the early 1964, when Johnson introduced the "war on poverty." Do you really believe that black Americans are worse off than they were then?

.

TruLib wrote:

"You write of tax cuts for the rich. I am not aware of this phenomenon. It is my understanding that the amount of taxes that the rich pay has been increasing. Is this not the case? If the rich are paying less could you point me to the source showing that decrease."

Of course, you're well aware of what he means; the wealthy pay less as a percentage of their income than before. They pay more dollars in tax because the increase in their incomes more than offset the reduction caused by the lower rates.

.

"fair"tax?
We don't need the "fair"tax. Gov't manipulation of markets and creating incentives for certain businesses is an important part of fixing recessions and maintaining a stable economy. Look at how fast we can fix recessions nowadays. With a "fair"tax or flat tax we will lose that ability. We simply need to lower tax rates,eliminate capital gains for U.S. citzens, get rid of garbage entitlement programs and wasteful govt spending and create private accounts instead of social security.

Hmmm...
It's funny; but the rich have no problem looking at the poor as someone who they can use to get rich....business as usual. Nothing personal, just buisness....when u get in my business, you just got wayyyyy too personal. Especially when it's a hypocrite trying to make money off controlling my private life. Do as I say, don't do as I do....

Bernoldus seriously...
All sarcasm aside, what exactly is a rich person's "fair share"? Because it seems to me that as long as they are rich, people will lament that they still are not paying it.

This is a serious question. Should the rich pay twenty percent? Fifty? Eighty? If they are still filthy rich after giving 80 percent to the government, should they still be taxed further?

The reason I am asking is because thus far, none of the people who want to tax them further ever have a solid answer.

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