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Wednesday, October 17, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Be Pro-Life?
by Jonah Goldberg
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I don’t know if life begins at conception. I don’t really know what “life” means. Consciousness? Possessing a soul? Well, if consciousness defines the issue, then life surely does not begin at conception. Not even the most adamant pro-lifer claims otherwise.

As for souls, I believe we have them, but I don’t know how they work. Indeed, ensoulment — the process by which God puts a soul in our bodies — is a controversial topic among religious scholars, people who know a lot more about such things than I do. And I’m not sure any of them are right anyway.

If “life” simply means that fetuses are something more than inanimate objects, I’m with you. But that hardly seals the deal for me on the issue of abortion. After all, the world is filled with organisms that do not deserve any special consideration, let alone a claim on a human being’s life or liberty.

In short, while I have great sympathy for “culture of life” arguments, if you tallied most of the above views on abortion, they’d appear to add up to my being pro-choice. And yet, when I get right down to it, I’m not. Why?

I’ve been trying to find my own answer to that question as the GOP comes to grips with the fact that its presidential front-runner, Rudy Giuliani, is pro-choice. I confess: A fully satisfactory answer eludes me, but I have enough of one to stay pro-life.

Part of my reasoning is politically pragmatic. Right-wing activist Grover Norquist once told my National Review colleague David Freddoso that anyone who can go to black-tie dinners and face the haranguing of rich donors for his pro-life stance has the backbone to support tax cuts, too.

That’s a crude way of putting it, but I know what he means. Being pro-life is so unfashionable, so uncool, I tend to trust politicians who are willing to hold the line.

This, in turn, is why I have special contempt for anti-abortion politicians who switch sides. Jesse Jackson used to call abortion “genocide.” Dick Gephardt, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Dennis Kucinich and other pro-choicers all once championed the unborn. Did each of them revisit the moral, philosophical, scientific and theological issues involved and, after careful study, decide that abortion doesn’t kill “babies,” after all, but merely evacuates “uterine contents”? I doubt it.

I could be wrong. But the fact that their conversions echoed the march of the Democratic Party and, for the most part, dovetailed with their presidential ambitions suggests to me that they were willing to sanction the taking of what they had once believed to be innocent lives merely for political gain. That is disgusting.

Flip-flopping the other way (as George H.W. Bush, Mitt Romney and others did) may be no less cynical. To pro-choice voters, it’s surely offensive to watch someone sacrifice the individual liberty of women for political expediency. But, morally, it just doesn’t seem as bad to me.

Every day, the government restricts what you can do with your body, from the drugs you can take to the surgeries you can subject yourself to. In other words, the line of personal autonomy is often blurry and narrow. The line between life and death is supposed to be bright and wide. Once a politician takes a stand that a certain population — be they fetuses, blacks, Jews, the handicapped or anybody else — has the right to life, their motive for changing their minds should be a lot better than fear of losing support from NARAL and the New York Times.

And that gets me to my more philosophical or principled reason for being pro-life: I just don’t know. I confess that I lack passion about debates over RU-486, Plan B and other measures that terminate a pregnancy in the first few hours or days after conception, because that’s when I’m least sure that a life is at stake. But when it comes to, say, partial-birth abortion, I am adamantly pro-life. I don’t know if a fertilized egg has rights. But I am convinced that a baby minutes, days or weeks before full term is, simply, a baby. And despite what you constantly hear, Roe v. Wade doesn’t recognize that fact.

In death penalty cases, “reasonable doubt” goes to the accused because unless we’re certain, we must not risk an innocent’s life. This logic goes out the window when it comes to abortion, unless you are 100 percent sure that babies only become human beings after the umbilical cord is cut. I don’t see how you can be that sure, which is why I’m pro-life — not because I’m certain, but because I’m not.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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knight of baawa...
...it didn't take long for you to weigh in with more liberal gobblygook - you are well known for that on these boards, and infamously so.

The truth is that Jonah said nothing of the kind. What he did was to summarize the proabortion position, which is that killing innocent human life is a matter of "personal liberty". It is a matter of one human being's 'personal liberty' being allowed to run roughshod over another human being's right to live.

The problem with the proabortion position is that it's incredibly intellectually dishonest. You, sir, are a case in point. The unborn, despite Jonah's expression of ambiguity on the matter, is a person in every sense of the word. It isn't a question of 'consciousness' or of 'possessing a soul'. Both of those starting points are proabortion straw men arguments. The truth is that the issue of when life begins is a purely scientific one, at least as it relates to the law. And biology, along with science, tell us in no uncertain terms that when an egg and sperm combine, a new life is created. Nothing is added to that life from that point forward until the baby is born - only time and nutrition. And even a left wing radical like you, knight of baawa, would have to grudgingly admit that all human beings need time and nutrition to grow, whether they reside in a womb or in an apartment on 42nd street. So the distinction is moot - a human being is a human being, no matter where they reside, what age they are, or what the status of their particular dependency happens to be. Or, in the words of Dr. Seuss "a person's a person no matter how small".

continuing my refutation....
A woman has self-ownership.

She does not, however, own the other life that is growing inside her. That is a totally different person, worthy of legal protection under the Constitution. Even Roe admits that should science prove that life begins at conception (fertilization if you want to be specific), then the entire argument for abortion collapses.

And science confirms that life DOES begin at fertilization, beyond any possibility of doubt.

What abortion 'forces upon others' via the current status quo is death for another human being. And that is not consistent with the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Notice, knight of baawa, that "life" is the first right mentioned in this heirarchy. That is because it is the most important right, and without it, all other rights are irrelevant.

An unborn child is just as much human as you and I are, regardless of what the lawless and biologically groundless decision of Roe vs. Wade says.

Jonah is simply summarizing the philosophy of the great Ronald Reagan - when someone is in a coma or on life-support, we don't assume they are dead or less than human. We err on the side of life. So it is with the unborn.

knight_of_baawa - think again.


knight_of_baawa writes: “So you admit - That being against abortion is being against personal liberty,”


It’s not even necessary to go there. Being against abortion is being against murder, plain and simple. You have no more right or “personal liberty” to murder the person in your uterus than you do the person next door.



~~~~~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “And no one has the right to legally prevent a woman from exercising her self-ownership by making abortion illegal.”


You have that exactly backwards: no one had the right to make murder legal back in 1973, they just did it anyway. You want to say it’s about self-ownership? The baby has self-ownership too; does the baby have the same “right” to kill the mother that you say the mother has to kill the baby?


You are siding with one human being over another, allowing one human being to execute summary judgment over another, without due process of law.


~~~~~~~


knight_of_baawa writes: “You can be anti-abortion (it's not pro-life) all you want; you just can't force that upon others.”


It’s being anti-murder, and you certainly *can* force it upon others; we have always done so.



The problem with this discussion,
and most others that are similarly acrimonious is that they involve premises that are fundamentally different. Dialog, or debate, might be fruitful if those bedrock philosophical premises were on the table but they never seem to be. I suspect they're seldom considered.

For example, if one believes that life is accidental, individually isolated, and ultimately meaningless in any universal sense then a so-called liberal viewpoint on many issues logically follows. If one believes life is given, spiritually connected, and subject at some point to judgment a more rule-based so-called conservative viewpoint logically follows.

I think the question boils down not to "What do you believe?', but "What do you base your beliefs on, at bottom?" These arguments rage on with neither side comprehending the other(s). There's no dialog, just noise.

I do appreciate the passion with which people approach these issues, but I wonder if they know where the spring is from which it flows. Maybe a discussion of that would be of interest, and more persuasive.

Sorry about the rant, but the endless, fruitless yammering gets to me sometimes.




rjoachimm...
It isn't fruitless yammering, no matter if you believe in a Creator or not. Indeed, it can't be a matter for the deconstructionists to decide. Just because some people don't believe that life is bestowed by a spiritual being doesn't give them the authority to confer the right to murder someone.

And this is what we're talking about. Legalized murder, committed at the convenience of the living. When you have upwards of 90% of all abortions conducted in this country for reasons of sheer convenience, with a tally close to 50 million aborted lives since Roe, you have a legalized atrocity worse than slavery. We've gone over all the reasons that Roe needs to be overturned, and the left believes this to be a civil rights issue where only a woman is concerned. We're fighting for the right of a blameless child to live, no matter what the circumstances.

And yes, that includes rape and incest. One crime cannot be absolved by compounding another crime. As horrible as a rape or an incest is, what did the baby do to deserve a sentence of death? According to the 5th Amendment, no one's right to life, liberty or property shall be taken from them without due process of law.

Perhaps...
Perhaps in our hedonistic society abortions might be necessary. As much as I hate to say this, but there is so much that I see that doesn't recommend otherwise.

The family structure is shattered. It lacks the power and commitment it once had in the days of the Greatest Generation.

Perhaps I live in a rare commodity - a strong family structure. When my cousin was raped, she got pregnant. Nobody would've blamed her if she wanted an abortion, but she let me, a MAN, make the decision. Not help her decide, make the decision. And that decision conferred with it a huge responsibility either way. Either way, I was responsible for another human life. I told her to have the baby. The way I saw it, it was far more noble and morally right to see this baby to term rather than consign her (it was a girl) to death for the crimes of her father. She kept her daughter, and our family has been helping out ever since.

I don't know if that sort of strength in the modern American family is common, but my feeling is that it isn't. The pro-abortionists and no-fault divorce decisions don't really help to strengthen the American family.

Wayfinder...
As it happens, I agree. My rant was prompted by the fact that your post, well written and well thought out as it is, will likely not persuade those opposed to your point of view because it is in opposition to their most basic belief.

It could be that belief is incidental to your point; that despite the obvious depth of your belief, theirs is of no consequence because this is a constitutional issue and they are, in your opinion, simply wrong. That being the case, I imagine changing the law by judicial fiat or legislative action would solve the problem. I personally doubt it. The deeper issue remains. Crime happens. Laws may minimize it, but never will they eliminate it.

Roe opened a Pandora's Box that had been unlocked by a failure of western society to justify its core beliefs to a new generation. Overturning it might result it limiting abortion, but certainly not in banning it. That will take persuasion, not legislation.

Those who would justify abortion do it on the basis of a rock-bottom belief in the supremacy of the individual and the overarching importance of convenience and pleasure which, in turn, is generally based on a deeper belief that life sucks and then you die. Persuade them otherwise and the behavior changes.

Attacking the behavior changes nothing. This thread and every other similar thread on this site bears me out. Everyone trots out their arguments and their bile and moves on. No epiphanies.

I don't mean to be disagreeable, but I meant what I said. Creator or not, you've either got to change their minds or accept that you've changed nothing but the law.




Wayfinder...
I applaud you and your cousin. It was, i have no doubt, a difficult decision and, I believe, the right one. Few, sadly, would have faulted either of you had it gone the other way. That is my point.

Sorry if I offended.

Pro-Birth or Pro-Life?

Sadie Fields from the Georgia Christian Alliance has been consistently out spoken about the rights of unborn children. Sadie has made it clear that pro-choice Americans are supporting a parent’s the right to murder a child.

Yet when it comes to the welfare of those children fortunate enough to be born, Sadie is willfully blind to how denial of needed healthcare could result in death for the child or the mother. How can she be so outspoken about a child’s right to be born, yet so quiet about a child’s right to life-saving healthcare?

I am shocked that Sadie rejects proposals like those from Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton that require everyone to buy health insurance (similar to the requirement to buy car insurance). Why isn’t Sadie screaming for healthcare solutions that make sure every child is protected and parents are held responsible!

Instead, Sadie fights for unborn children, but then shamefully quits the fight after birth-which accounts for only 4% of childhood.

The Truth about Healthcare

READ NORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/pro-birth-or-pro-l ife

Legalized Murder!
Anyone who has observed ultrasound, or paid any attention to the medical profession, can’t play the ignorance game anymore.

Those who support abortion need to call it what it is, legalized murder.

The woman’s body is the vehicle by which nature has determined to carry human life.
That life by the way is something you had a major part in bringing into existence.

So, in my humble opinion, quit calling it a right to your body and call it what it is.
You don’t want it, it’s legal to kill it, and you took advantage of the law.

It was once legal to hang a man for stealing your live stock, shouldn’t we still be doing that. It is MY property is it.

Making something legal doesn’t make it right.

Just call it what it is until the courts decide to change it.
It’s legalized murder.

..
.

The wisdom of rhoachimm
rhoachimm,

You write: "For example, if one believes that life is accidental, individually isolated, and ultimately meaningless in any universal sense then a so-called liberal viewpoint on many issues logically follows. If one believes life is given, spiritually connected, and subject at some point to judgment a more rule-based so-called conservative viewpoint logically follows."

Thank you. This is the best, most succinct explanation I've read of the differences between the conservative (religious?) and liberal (secular?) world views. And I completely agree with you. Until hearts and minds are changed, laws don't mean diddly. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I hold out much hope at this point. Things don't seem to be moving our way.

Murder...
...No one is more opposed to abortion than I am,but I never use the term"murder".Murder is a legal term with certain meaning,such as "Illegally taking of human life".But because abortion is legal,murder does not apply.However,the term I use is "Killing a child thru abortion".That is much more accurate and in violation of the Constitution.

Where the Supreme Court went wrong was when they were in chambers and decided that they would NOT decide when life begins.In my opinion,they did this because a majority wanted abortion to be legal.( The discussion was recorded and it was played once about 20 years ago on C-SPAN,I believe).I listened to it.

In other words,they decided to "define" a child's life right out of existence,in violation of the 5th and 14th amendments.

Pro lifers,such as myself,can be pro death penality.But in our arguments,we never resort to an argument that says that the criminal we are executing is not a human being,as the abortionists do when it comes to a child.We say that the penalty for illegally taking a life is to give a life.But we do not denigrate the murderer by defining his "personhood" away.

Konop: Sadie is a topic for a DIFFERENT

column, but not this one!!! Let's stay ON TOPIC, for once.

Pro-Life -vs- Pro-Abortion is nothing more than a debate about legalized killing of innocent babies.

Now, how about you google "Margaret Sanger" who founded Planned Parenthood, and find out how and why Planned Parenthood was started.

Sanger was a bigot and a racist, and the her first goal was to keep blacks from pro-creating.

Womens' rights had nothing what so ever to do with it.








50 little experiments
Even if “Roe vs. Wade” is overturned for being “bad law,” the issue will be transferred to the individual state legislatures as per the US Constitution’s original framers, i.e., 13 different little experiments. Hence, if you’re rabidly Pro-life, you can live in the Dakotas. If you want to employ abortion out of convenience (IAW 96% of the 1.4M annual abortions performed per year) , and feel morally superior for doing so, go live in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, i.e., a woman-child sleeps around, gets pregnant despite having access to dozen forms of birth control & uses abortion as retro-birth control. They can then wear a Ms. Magazine "I had an abortion" tee-shirt as though killing their child for convenience was some sort of sick feminist right of passage. You know the type.

Pro-Life is more than anti-abortion
Most people who claim to be pro-life have a very narrow view of the sanctity of life. They are really just pro-birth. If we really believe life is precious and a gift from God, then being pro-life starts at conception and ends with death. It dosen't end at birth.

Pro-life means if you fight against abortion, you then support post-birth quality of life in health care, education and equal opportunity.

You fight against the injustices of the death penality and support comprehensive crime prevention and comprehensive prisoner rehabilitaion.

Most importantly, we have empathy for others and feel their pain and suffering. Not just in the USA, but throughout the world. You do not support wars and the senseless killing of innocent people in the name of fighting terrorism. You will ask about the innocent Iraqi's we killed and tortured. You are concerned about the impact of our foreign policy has on people's lives. It is not the USA versus the rest of the world.

To be Pro-Life is to be compassionate to all human beings in all apsects of their lives. Instead of using the cliche of "Personal Responsibility" as a code for not taking responsibility to help others in need.

This is what pro-life means to me...


Cynical
It's hard not to be cynical about the pro-life movement. They are pro-life ... until the umbilical cord is cut. If that child has a serious illness and the mother lacks health insurance, well, too bad, so sad, the pro-life movement will pray at the child's funeral.

Secondly, for all their rhetoric, every abortion that was legal under President Clinton is still legal under President Bush. And, regardless of who wins in 2008, every abortion that is legal today will be legal under the next president too. (The partial birth abortion banned only one technique of abortion. The abortion can still occur at that stage of pregnancy using a different technique.)

Republican politicians use the abortion issue to get votes, with no intention of ever doing anything about it. Bush said (after his election, naturally): I can't do anything until the American culture has changed. At least this crowd of Republican presidential candidates (Guiliani, Romney, etc.) are up-front in saying that they will not do anything regarding abortion.

50 little experiments
Even if “Roe vs. Wade” is overturned for being “bad law,” the issue will be transferred to the individual state legislatures as per the US Constitution’s original framers, i.e., 13 different little experiments. Hence, if you’re rabidly Pro-life, you can live in the Dakotas. If you want to employ abortion out of convenience (IAW 96% of the 1.4M annual abortions performed per year) , and feel morally superior for doing so, go live in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, i.e., a woman-child sleeps around, gets pregnant despite having access to dozen forms of birth control & uses abortion as retro-birth control. They can then wear a Ms. Magazine "I had an abortion" tee-shirt as though killing their child for convenience was some sort of sick feminist right of passage. You know the type.

Additionally, I am forced by the "barrel of a gun" to pay my income taxes IOT provide funding to abortion mills like "Planned Parenthood", which was paid over $650M+ in federal dollars to provide abortion services for low-income women-children, resulting in a $50M profit. Apparently, the “abortion mill” industry is big business for quite a few feminists.

Which gender really has no rights to their own body?

cognitive dissonance
I am continuously appalled by the cognitive dissonance associated w/ the continued sanctification of “motherhood” & its continued subsidization via the welfare-industrial complex, earner-income tax credit, child support, alimony, child-custody monopoly, etc., when a certain gender aborts 30% of all children conceived (1.4M) annually, 96% of which were aborted for personal convenience. Please try and convince me that females are inherently morally superior (e.g., the “nurturing” gender) to their male counterparts.

knight_of_baawa
At least be current on the arguments: It’s not 1960 anymore.

>>“Murder implies rights.”

Exactly! A baby has rights; you (along with government) just choose to take them away. You’re born already; you don’t care.


>>“That implies the fetus owns the womb.”

No it doesn’t. What kind of 2nd grade logic is this? The baby isn’t there by choice; the baby is there as a result of a previous choice by the mother in 99% of cases. A baby doesn’t own a woman’s assets after she’s born either but the mother is required by law to feed and clothe the child. A father is required to pay child support. Again it goes back to WHAT is being killed - A human being or a figment of your imagination?


>>”I'd like to see a demonstration of how the woman loses ownership of her womb when she becomes pregnant. “

Ridiculous; I’d like to see a demonstration of how a woman or man loses ownership of financial assets after birth.


>>”Further, I'd like to see how a fetus actually has rights. Please provide the reasoning for that, too.”

It’s a human being. Period. What makes it less of a human being than you? I’m glad you weren’t around back in the times of slavery.

I agree
that changing the law (at this point) will not change behaviors. We are a hedonistic, me first, egocentric, narcissistic society. We need to change hearts and minds. That's why I applaud Fred Thompson when, after seeing a sonogram, realized what being pro life actually means. That's what we're trying to do--change hearts and then minds. If people were true to their "own" hearts they could figure it out. God said that he would replace our "hearts of stone" with "natural" hearts (flesh). People who believe in God should, naturally, be pro-life for He is the creator of life. However, smart atheists are also pro-life including so many atheistic scientists--they're just hard-hearted regarding God, but they're not dumb.

You are right demo...
spot on

Unknowability?
It’s simply a glob of tissue with-in a woman’s body to do with as she wishes, like popping a zit. So the argument goes. Universally known yet unspoken because of the implications, is the special situation that two unique human individuals occupy the same body.

Science tells us that two types of distinct human tissue occupy the same body. The mother has a different blood type from that “glob of tissue” and can not share blood because they are fundamentally different.

Science also tells us that at the moment of conception the two unique DNA of the sperm and the egg unwind themselves and twist up a new unique DNA that the world has never before seen. It is a new and unique human individual and as the cells of this “glob of tissue” multiply, each cell will contain this new unique DNA. If one could travel through the woman’s body cell by cell examining the DNA as you went, you could tell exactly at which cell you leave the mother’s body and enter the child’s body.

So sure is science in identifying DNA that should that “glob of tissue” belong to a rapist we will send them to prison based solely on that evidence.

Reasoning tells us that abortion is an act, an intervention, a response to newly discovered facts in the womb. Abortion is not preventative, it is reactionary. And what are the consequences of not reacting? Except for possible complications, it is assured that the newly discovered “facts in the womb” will develop into a unique individual. Weeks before there were no consequences of inaction, it was the safe route. Now the consequence of inaction is motherhood. If motherhood is to be avoided something must be done. The very reason to have an abortion define for us what the facts in the womb are.

When it comes to abortion how harsh yet how accurate is the following: This aphorism is also especially harsh because it encompasses all of the tacit implications of the issue: Kill it before it grows!

knight_of_baawa
Because you can't read; I'll say it again.

>>"please demonstrate that a fetus has rights."

It's a human being. Period. Please demonstrate how knight_of_baawa has rights.

Now that that's out of the way:

I’d like to see you demonstrate why a woman or man loses ownership of financial assets after the birth of a child, in other words, why does a woman have to support a child and feed her child after birth for fear of the state taking custody? The baby should have no right her assets.

Thanks

Your beliefs don't cut it

The problem with pro lifers is that their positions are based on religious beliefs cherry picked from the book of books.

No contraception is allowed and all acts of sex must be for the purpose of procreation.

To my knowledge, no right to life group has ever advocated any form of contraception other than abstinence and celibacy. When pro lifers advocate some form of contraception other than abstinence and celibacy, I will pay their arguments some respect. Until that time, your arguments' are fallacious and circular and are based on superstitious beliefs.

Bleeding Heart Liberal
>>” The problem with pro lifers is that their positions are based on religious beliefs cherry picked from the book of books. “

Nope; look up Nat Hentoff; huge - famous atheist…and pro-life.


Busted.


"Sometimes a bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet."




In a pregnancy...
...caused by rape,there are three people involved: The rapor,the rapee,and the child.How come the only innocent person involved gets the death penalty? Would you support the death penalty for the rapist? If not,why not?

Just asking.

Name 65
The woman raped is innocent too - Although she gets no death penalty.

It's always said; 'Exceptions never make for good law'; but pro-abortionists love talking about rape and incest ad nauseuum.


Bleeding Heart Liberal
"The problem with pro lifers is that their positions are based on religious beliefs cherry picked from the book of books. No contraception is allowed and all acts of sex must be for the purpose of procreation."

That is a straw man argument. Not all pro-lifers are Catholic, and not all of them oppose contraception. In fact, most women who have abortions have already made the choice to have unprotected sex (rape victims are the exception, and they constitute only a tiny minority of women who receive abortions). Thus, in most cases, abortion is simply an attempt to avoid the consequences of an irresponsible choice.

The issue is whether or not life begins in the womb. If a fetus is not a human being, then we can get into arguments about liberty and freedom of choice. But what if it IS a human being? Then we have perpetrated a slaughter that makes the Nazi Holocaust pale in comparison.

Pro-abortionists don't like to deal with the issue of life in the womb because scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the pro-life side.

"When pro lifers advocate some form of contraception other than abstinence and celibacy, I will pay their arguments some respect."

That argument cuts both ways. When pro-abortionists start encouraging women to make responsible choices, then maybe I'll listen to all their rhetoric about "choice."

Science and Young America
Ken wrote:

“Pro-abortionists don't like to deal with the issue of life in the womb because scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the pro-life side.”

This couldn’t be more true. Some folks on this forum obviously can’t stand the science and the fact that the young people of America are starting to rebel against the vile system of ‘abortion choice’.

It’s only a matter of time…and they can’t stand it.

As to life;
a blade of grass, a protozoa, a puppy, and even a sperm cell are all alive. Being alive they are all dependent on a given environment to stay that way. At no point since the first life has the question been meaningful. A zygote is certainly alive.

The question in play is whether, and when, a zygote becomes "human", with all the arbitrary meaning our species assigns that word. That question, too, is meaningless in any but a legal sense. Is a hydro cephalic infant human? How about a catatonic (not brain dead) adult, or any person totally dependent on technology to live and function (Stephen Hawking)? We are all gobs of cells and not all of us are conscious or independent. If you believe in souls, you've probably met people you think may be soulless. Shall we kill every unrealized, unproductive, dependent person when we find them inconvenient?


s to life; (cont)
How about the potential argument? A zygote or fetus is merely a "potential" human being. This argument requires that we draw a line no one is qualified to draw. Perhaps the dependency argument appeals. Infants have survived independent of the womb as early as 24 or so weeks. Of course, to stay alive outside help is required pretty much through what we define as childhood.

So what remains is residency in the womb. Who will say that anyone in a womb, at any stage, is not human and a candidate for death? By what definition? Scientifically, morally and philosophically the question is without meaning and any answer is without foundation.

The only meaningful issue is legal.

To believe in the legal right to abortion is to ask society to take responsibility for killing a non-threatening human being (potential or otherwise) because the creator of that human being finds it inconvenient. It's a rare child indeed who is conceived by accident. Action is required that carries a known risk. If the risk is unacceptable then don't take the action. Accepting the risk means you find the potential consequences acceptable. Simple, isn't it? The participants should accept responsibly for the consequence of their action.

It's a grown-up thing. "Cause I wanna and I can", is not a thoughtful justification for snuffing out any life, no less a member of your own species, or all killing is equally justified. If that is your position then you're truly pro-choice. Good luck with that.

Why Goldberg is Pro-Life
Jonah Goldberg deserves thanks for going public with his pro-life belief. I pray that many more will also have the courage to say in public what they say in private.

There are more pro-life people than the public might think. Tragically they keep it quiet when God wants them to shout it from the mountaintops.

To find out why Goldberg and many others of you are pro-life but can't quite express it, just read Jeremiah Chapter 1 and Psalms 139. God is telling you through your conscience. God is telling us that life comes from Him, and that he has designs on life before we are born, indeed before we are created.

When we destroy a so-called fetus, we are destroying what God calls life-and life is His greatest creation.

Christians need to pray for the Clintons and Kennedys etc and also work to educate people in general about life and also to minister to the thousands of women each year who suffer terrible mental problems over having an abortion.

Self ownership
is a silly argument and indefensible. If you claim membership in a society you subjugate yourself to that society. Any legal rights you have, including the right to life, are yours by sufferance. Society (government) reserves the right to do with you as it will depending on its perceived needs. That's pretty basic.

Weird Science
>”The woman owns her womb and the contents thereof.”

Not science

>>”It's part of self-ownership”

Not science


>>”which necessarily entails self-sovereignty”

Hahaha. Definitely not science


>>”The fetus resides in someone else's property.”

Not science

The only way the anti-choice people can have their way is to destroy self-ownership. Of course, by doing so, they necessarily invalidate their own claims, since they wouldn't own themselves.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!


My mistake, my bad
I should not have implied "all" fundamentalists, just "most" cherry pick beliefs, since there are so many sects that push different sooth sayers and fortune tellers.

Yo Ken... Most opponents to abortion are from the religious right, not just catholics who, by the way, are more consistent in their beliefs than the garden variety fundamentalist.

I do push women to make responsible choices, as I do for men.

It is difficult to make a responsible choice when none is ever presented. Most families do not have a "talk" with their kids about sex; they leave it to the school system to teach them. The schools are mandated by the federal government to teach "just say no".

Most of you anti abortionists should admit this does not work at least 1,000,000 a year, the rough number of abortions occurring a year.

Economically, an abortion (when I was more actively involved in the cause) used to cost @ $!000. 18 years of welfare payments cost $250,000. From the perspective of my taxes, it was the first truly responsible choice the girl ever made.

If it were possible and up to me, I would put a contraception in the water supply and provide an antidote at will, ending the discussion now. No abortions would be necessary (accept for true medical reasons) because no unwanted pregnancies would occur.


Bleeding Heart Liberal
"If it were possible and up to me, I would put a contraception in the water supply and provide an antidote at will, ending the discussion now."

I'm glad it's not up to you. And you accuse pro-lifers are accused of wanting to control women? Give me a break!

"Economically, an abortion (when I was more actively involved in the cause) used to cost @ $!000. 18 years of welfare payments cost $250,000. From the perspective of my taxes, it was the first truly responsible choice the girl ever made."

If it's all a matter of dollars and sense, why don't we just kill all the people who are currently on welfare? It would be economical, but hardly humane.

Once again, you conveniently avoid the issue of life in the womb.

knight_of_baawa - keep thinking...


knight_of_baawa: “Murder implies rights. That implies the fetus owns the womb.”


According to your doctrine of “self-ownership”, the baby doesn’t own just the womb; the baby owns the whole body, no more so or less so than the mother does.


Two individuals occupying the same corporeal body. The right of ownership is shared and belongs to both.


~~~


knight_of_baawa: “I'd like to see a demonstration of how the woman loses ownership of her womb when she becomes pregnant. Please provide it for me.”


I didn’t claim the mother “lost” ownership.


At the moment of conception, the mother’s “ownership” of the body is necessarily shared with the baby, according to your doctrine of “self-ownership”. Shared ownership attaches equal rights; neither party has the liberty to violate the other’s rights.


Furthermore, the rights of both parties exist outside of and apart from the circumstances under which the baby was conceived; if you find someone in your home, through no fault of their own, and who presents no threat or danger to you whatsoever, you have no “right” to murder that person.


The case for the legal right of the baby not to be murdered *can only be strengthened* if the mother has invited and encouraged and willfully facilitated the conception of the baby, by voluntarily engaging in the activity of procreation; how much less “right” must anyone have to murder someone whose very presence in their home would NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE without choosing to engage in activity *designed to produce that very result*?


~~~


knight_of_baawa: “Further, I'd like to see how a fetus actually has rights.”


How can an individual who is alive and human NOT have inalienable rights? How is that possible?


And by what *right* do YOU deny another individual’s *right* to life?


~~~


knight_of_baawa: “Please provide the reasoning for that, too.”


Consider it done.


~~~


knight_of_baawa: “Thank you.”


You’re welcome.



Scott put the smack down on Knight
Nice Scott.


annfan
Some really great rationale on this issue from all of you, especially you, annfan. I would like to make one request. The use of the term "unborn" always makes me cringe. I wish all pro lifers would start using the term "preborn." This clarifies the fact that the intrauterine human is in a process of maturing. To me, the term unborn sounds like something in a permanent state of limbo. I think this is one reason that many do not consider the preborn to be human because they see "unborn" as a subclass all its own.

If I say, for instance, that someone is "uneducated" you don't get a picture of someone who is a student not yet graduated. You get a picture of someone who has long since abandoned education. Someone in a permanently "uneducated" state. If I were to tell you that my daughter was “undeveloped” you would immediately think she was born with a defect. You would not assume I was simply saying that the child was an infant. What the term unborn really reminds me of is the old Zombie movies where the creatures were called the "undead". Not living, but not really dead either. They were in a permanent state of "un-ness." A state of limbo. I think this is the way many view the preborn, and pro life people need to do all they can to counter this attitude.

rjoachimm writes: 17, 2007 3:32 AM

Wayfinder...
I applaud you and your cousin. It was, i have no doubt, a difficult decision and, I believe, the right one. Few, sadly, would have faulted either of you had it gone the other way. That is my point.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Thank you for both your comments. This certainly is based on one’s world view as you say. We started out with an extremely independent world view of self reliance and personal responsibility. Our founding document said the function of giver-ment was to protect life, liberty and property. It was a world where you own yourself, where life is to be protected and where liberty meant to excel within the constraints of natural law.

However, if you crush the independent, self reliant, personal responsibility, and remove liberty you build the power of the state over the slave. Independent, self reliant and personal responsibility becomes greed. Liberty becomes license. Life is now a choice not endowed by the creator because it is merely a worthless cog of the grand State.

The real truth
The Lord called me before my birth. From within the womb he called me by my name...He said to me, `You are my servant'..." (Isaiah 49:1,3 TLB);

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb" (Psalm 139:13)

There is a reason for being pro-life rather than for political expediency. It is because God said that says that life starts in the womb. God said it - that's good enough for me.

John Konop
"How can she be so outspoken about a child’s right to be born, yet so quiet about a child’s right to life-saving healthcare?"

No where in our Constitution or Bill or Rights are we guaranteed a right to health care. Your argument exemplifies what Thomas Sowell has said, and that is many today do not know the difference between a right and a need or a want. Just because someone needs something, that in no way makes it a right. Life, on the other hand, is a right guaranteed to all Americans. It is not subject to majority rule, the democratic process or any election.

Once we start making everyone's needs their rights, there will be no end to the confiscation of other people's property to meet the needs of those in need. From each according to his ability to each according to his need is a Communist ideology not an American one.

Pro-life is pro-choice
knight_of_baawa,

Pro-lifer's are pro-choice; but pro-abortionists are not pro-life. A woman and man have opportunity to choose whether to conceive life right up to the time that the man introduces sperm into the women's body. It's not that there is no choice, it's just a more responsible choice.

knight_of_baawa writes: 17, 2007 1:28 PM

Start thinking, Scott
"According to your doctrine of “self-ownership”, the baby doesn’t own just the womb; the baby owns the whole body, no more so or less so than the mother does."

Actually, the woman would no longer own herself, since self-ownership is an absolute.

"Two individuals occupying the same corporeal body. The right of ownership is shared and belongs to both."

Wrong. It's an absolute, not shared. Otherwise we get into the strange land of each person owning a part of everyone else.

So, since you're completely wrong about shared self-ownership, you have to actually think about your stance.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Hmmm, I wonder if the teenage girls with two normally functioning heads stuck on one body that drives cars and does everything folks with one normal head do, would need to clear one head with the other if one head decided to have the other head cut off so a one headed person now would be normal? I’m sure by now we have all seen these older teenagers on TV. Could one head some how consent to have the other head cut off without consent from the other head? I assume she could because you claim she has absolute self ownership.

Of course nobody has absolute self ownership and that is why we have the death penalty or jail for not paying taxes etc.. In the end society can always take control of your body.

Blind belief
knight_of_baawa,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of not seen. Heb. 11:1

Yes, I believe blindly. It is called faith.

John Konop writes: 17, 2007 5:21 AM

Pro-Birth or Pro-Life?

Sadie has made it clear that pro-choice Americans are supporting a parent’s the right to murder a child.

Yet when it comes to the welfare of those children fortunate enough to be born, Sadie is willfully blind to how denial of needed healthcare could result in death for the child or the mother.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Seem to be completely unconnected to me. The mother makes a choice to have sex. With that choice come certain responsibilities including the health care of the child. If the mother refuses such she most likely will end up in prison.

However most cities have Christian organization that help out these mothers. My city has a couple of them.

We can make trillions of excuses for socialism until we have Bill Gates in a bread line with everybody else. Making law based on the exception is dangerous policy.

In the deep South we have a saying, you breed 'em you feed 'em

Deskjockey, Reader, & Scott
I admire your belief in redemption, and your endurance. I must say, however, I do believe this horse is dead.

knight
You nailed it in the first post. No one else has had anything intelligent to say.

Always fun to watch you at work.

Ken you missed the point
Where there is only dogma and no information, there is no choice.

When you forget the hormonal drives of your own adolescence, you are already half dead.

If you had no hormonal drives as an adolescent, you were already half dead and, imho, not quite human.

Hormones cloud judgment contribute to bad decisions. For example, look at the marriages that should never have been, let alone the number of abortions.

What is life in the womb? What is life. What makes man, man? Are we merely a biological entity ala Teri Schiavo deserving to be kept alive at all costs? Or are we more? Is humanity to be determined by the possession of a unique genetic code that will in itself be extinguished one day be chance, design, or happen stance. Is all life sacred or just american christian life.

We cannot even begin to discuss the issue because in the final argument "the bible says so" is your response. That is your faith and I will not tolerate faith being imposed by law.


knight_of_baawa - flawed thinking



knight_of_baawa writes: “Actually, the woman would no longer own herself, since self-ownership is an absolute.”


Assertion without substantiation.


Worse, you are now making up your doctrine as you go along, attempting to shore-up your position after gaping holes have been poked in it. That’s exactly what you accuse many religious people of doing, and you are relentless in your condemnation of that practice, yet you seem to have comfortably fallen into employing this same practice yourself, in a pinch.


Back up, and begin again, addressing the subject on sound footing, if you can find any.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “Wrong. It's an absolute, not shared. Otherwise we get into the strange land of each person owning a part of everyone else.”


Repetition of unsubstantiated assertion does not add up to either truth or fact; i.e., saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. I know you know this, and you know it is a rookie mistake, but I don’t know why you’re making it.


There is no shortage of examples in jurisprudence where property ownership is shared by more than one individual. Property rights are rather well defined in American law; particularly when both individuals have made the property in question their primary residence.


This is your own line of reasoning I am following, your “doctrine of self-ownership”, and we’re going to follow it awhile, but I can tell already that you don’t like where it leads… I don’t think you have a shovel big enough to dig yourself out of it now, but we’ll see.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “So, since you're completely wrong about shared self-ownership, you have to actually think about your stance.”


You have assumed a conclusion based on an unsubstantiated assertion of your own making. I expect much better from you. Not “better” as in “good”, but “better” as in “more careful”.


What you have done here so far has been sloppy.


don’t destroy it, it’s from a man
TH could save a lot of time if they would just cut and paste all the stupid arguments of the so-called pro-lifers, each time they promote another column on that subject.

Just to save my time, here is a cut and paste, that’s never been answered or refuted.

------

It is the sexist men who holler the most, “I put it there, and don’t you simple woman disturb it. You may die with it, you may suffer a horrible way of life for many years because of it, the baby may have a horrible life, but don’t destroy it, it’s from a man!! And I can go on my way and completely ignore you and the baby."

-----

Are you one of those who watch TV news stories of starving babies and cheer, and say, "At least she didn't get an abortion!"



Bleeding Heart Liberal
"We cannot even begin to discuss the issue because in the final argument "the bible says so" is your response."

When did I say "the Bible says so"? I made my arguments on the basis of science, not faith. Scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of life. Why do think pro-abortionists don't want women to see pictures of aborted fetuses? They don't want them to know the truth.

"What is life in the womb? What is life. What makes man, man?"

That's an interesting point. On what basis do you claim to be human? If you cannot offer a coherent response to that question, does that give me or anyone else the right to kill you? That seems to be your logic regarding abortion.

"That is your faith and I will not tolerate faith being imposed by law."

Hmm. But you want everyone else to tolerate your beliefs, even if it means the destruction of innocent human life? That's a typical liberal for you. You think your "rights" take precedence over everyone else's.

I might remind you of your statement from a previous post: "If it were possible and up to me, I would put a contraception in the water supply and provide an antidote at will, ending the discussion now."

In other words, you wish you could regulate other people's reproductive rights, yet you talk about "freedom of choice." Who do you think you're kidding? Like most liberals, you think everyone else's rights (including their right to life) ought to yield to your comfort and well-being.

Instead of "Bleeding Heart Liberal", your name should be "Cold-Hearted Narcissist."

Like Jonah, I am also unsure
When in doubt, err on the side of life. There are only a few in the pro-choice camp who are reasonable and make a reasonable case in favor of abortion (none of them appear to have shown up to post a response to this article), and I have to admit, I can empathize with reasoned, thoughtful arguments. But from these reasonable people, the issue of "when-does-life-begin" never comes up... because no reasonable person can be sure.

I AM sure that I'm glad I was never aborted. I guess that's why I argue to defend the lives of the unborn; so they can have the opportunity to live and grow up to say they're glad they were never aborted.

I guess that's why I'm pro-life.

knight_of_baawa- thinking towards defeat
KoB writes: “Scott's flawed thinking”


Imitation is said to be the sincerest form of flattery, so I should thank you, as long as you realize I don’t dig you that way ;-)


~


KoB (previously): “Actually, the woman would no longer own herself, since self-ownership is an absolute.”

I replied: "Assertion without substantiation."

KoB's follow-up: “False. It's necessarily so.”


By what standard of reasoning? Because you say so? By the divine decree of KoB? LOL!


It’s an unsubstantiated assertion. It shouldn’t have been necessary to point it out the first time, and you’ve repeated the same mistake exactly.


That’s fine though, I’ll continue to hammer you on it until you establish your position with something more credible than simple assertion. You must not be feeling well today, you’re making this easy…


~


Me (previously): "There is no shortage of examples in jurisprudence where property ownership is shared by more than one individual."


KoB replies: “Red herring. We're not talking about something external to a person, but the person him or herself.”


That may be what you’re talking about now that you recognize the gaping hole in your position, but you can’t go back and redefine your position and then call my response to your previous position a *red herring*, LOL!


Besides, you’re supposed to be the “consistent one” (“remember”)? You reminded us a little while ago:

KoB wrote previously (2:13pm): “Remember: I'm the consistent one here.”


~


KoB: “As you know: wherever you go, there you are. You can't disassociate yourself from yourself. You can't leave yourself behind.”


Non-responsive.


~


KoB: “Try again. This time: use some sound footing (if you can find any) to address what I wrote.”


Again with the imitation and flattery… I’m beginning to think you’re sweet on me, KoB… either that or you’re just intellectually lazy, and I know you’re not intellectually lazy…

The Bible says
The question is always asked by the same people, “Does abortion end an innocent human life?” Absolutely not.

The Bible says in Genesis 2, verse 6 or 7. Life begins with the breath of life, not before.

It's a woman's choice
It’s a woman’s choice to have sex. This choice is rooted in selfishness.


Said woman becomes pregnant. This is the consequence of the selfish act.


It’s a woman’s choice to have an abortion. This choice too, is rooted in selfishness.


A baby human life is extinguished. This is the consequence of a selfish act.


Selfishness is idolatry. Idolatry is in violation of God’s first commandment.


Violating the commandments of God is sin.


The wages of sin is death.


The second death means eternal separation from God. It lands one in the lake of fire.


It’s a woman’s choice.


Not much of a choice now, is it?

Defeat happened at 1:21 pm
Scott is a pro; I'd bet on it. KOB just repeats himself and imitates everyone.

Scott; you won a long…long time ago...but to truly be victorious KOA would have to understand his position is flawed and change it.

Although he won't say it here - Let's hope KOA does.

As for this post; let's just wait on the KOA imitation of it.

Hahaha!

knight_of_baawa
Since you seem to be of infinite wisdom, please enlighten me as to your take on the origin of things. It would help me sooo much in my explanation of God for starters. Thanks.

PS 14:1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."


knight_of_baawa
Since you seem to be of infinite wisdom and knowledge, please enlighten me as to your take on the origin of things. It would help me sooo much in my demonstrating the existance of God. Thanks much.


PS 14:1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."

knight_of_baawa
A) It's always easy to steal anothers work, isn't it.


B) I figured you would dance around any real answer.


My assumption is that you guess that the universe just popped into existance.


By the bye, just how does the left define "is?"


apologies for the double post...

WHY is it so difficult to STAY ON TOPIC?

It's absolutely amazing that so many people, who OBVIOUSLY have absolutely NO CLUE what they're talking about, seem to think they actually have, not just answers, but ALL the answers.


Goldberg is right, not only does he admit that he doesn't have all the answers (very bright and intelligent man just admitting that!) but is bright and intelligent enough to know... "A fully satisfactory answer eludes me, but I have enough of one to stay pro-life."

Abortion ALWAYS ends with the MURDER of an innocent human being. Any liberal fool can twist and spin that any way he/she likes, but there is NO getting around it... it's MURDER of an innocent human being.

And, yeah, knight of night, I own my property, but that doesn't mean I can just kill someone because I don't want them on my property!!!!!




KoB
Your response to Hogrider was childish and, frankly, unresponsive. Further, much of what you say about the Psalm could as easily be said of your unresponsive replies to folks who've asked you for clarifications of your position.

Perhaps, just to enlighten those of us down here on the ground, you could take a stab at defining the terms you use that we obviously don't comprehend.

What, precisely, is the "self" you own. Where does it come from and where does it go when you die? Does it simply cease to exist? Is it your body, and if not, does your "self" own your body? Who owns it when the "self" vacates the premises?

Ditto the word "rights" as you use it. Where do these "rights" come from? Do you just make them up as you go along or is there some authority that tells you what they are?

In your response, if any, try to avoid circular reasoning and begging the question, please.

radicals needed to demolish abortion
I invite aspiring radical revolutionaries to participate in the demolishing of murder-on-demand in the U.S. through prayer and fasting.

A current round of campaigns having prayer & fasting to end abortion will go through 4 November 07. See
http://www.40daysforlife.com/about.cfm?selected=campaign

results of some 40 Days for Life campaigns
http://www.40daysforlife.com/about.cfm?selected=result0073

knight_of_baawa
A) Please substantiate your claim:


"The universe, necessarily, has always existed."


B) Just what does the word "anarchocapitalist" mean? I've never seen it before so I looked it up and neither Dictionary.com or Merriam-Webster Online seem to recognize it either.


Do I get to make up words as I go too??

Kob
Actually, you have yet to address anything I've written (I haven't said anything to you). Feel free to go back and check. There was a poorly reasoned crack at one point, but, otherwise, nada.

Your reasoning is poor, your explanations non-existent and as your permanent position of offense makes clear, you're intellectually defenseless. Constant repetition without even an attempt at defining your base terms is, at best, bravado.

Continue to enjoy yourself.


Fetus has no rights? Thanks to Margaret

Sanger and Roe -v- Wade, and short sighted, ignorant, limited liberals such as you.

But, prior that roe -v- wade, the unborn... or more accurately, the "yet to be born" DID have rights.

I'll make it simple... even for you!!!

Question: Is a "fetus" (as you prefer to call the unborn child) a living and growing human being?

Answer: YES!

Question: Is abortion killing that living and growing human being?

Answer: YES!

Ergo, it is MURDER of an innocent living and growing human being.

How sad and pathetic that there are people such as yourself you are so limited and short sighted as to not be able to see that.

But, we're used to short sighted, limited liberals coming by TH to spew their stupidity!

Problem is, no one takes you, and your short sighted, limited liberals seriously. Too bad for you!


:-)




not necessarily so
Knight of baawa -- "the universe, necessarily, has always existed."?
Yes, ''necessarily'' if you're an atheist groping for answers to bolster your beliefs. The truth is: No one knows how, when or who created the universe, and the unknowable is what we call God.

KoB
I'll leave you with this.

No, you haven't addressed what I've written.

My assertion that your response was childish and unresponsive is, unlike your self-ownership hogwash, self-evident.

Ditto your third demand.

This is great. Responding as you do is so easy. Where did you learn this?

Good evening. Have fun.

immoral standing
KoB: I believe the fetus has more "moral standing" than you. By your reasoning, if you "own" a dog, you have the right to kill it, even if it's healthy? You can't get around the fact that a fetus is life and has value for people who value life. Obviously you don't. Socialist, right? Le'Chaim, citizen.

knight of night! You are such a short

sighted, limited, low-life, liberal I can't believe that you're allowed to walk around without adult supervision!


I certainly hope that someday you don't end up needing to be kept alive by means other than your own. Then, according to your irrational thinkng process, we can consider you exactly as you consider a "fetus" and just end your sorry pathetic life!







Try asking a pregnant woman....
How her fetus is doing? I would be prepared to duck if I were that stupid.

Why is the fetus (I prefer the term baby) in the womb? Somebody was making whoopi.

Who put it there? The whoopi makers.

Did they make choice before putting it there? Yes they did, and now they don't want to take responsibility for their irresponsibility.

Choose to prevent and then you won't have to kill.


knight of night: "The truth is that the

universe cannot be created..."

Right, like knight of night actually is so sure that he "knows" the truth about anything!!

And, that he is so stupid as to state that "the univer cannot be created..." shows exactly how ignorant and limited he truly is.


What arrogance and huris!

knight_of_baawa - "Hammer-time!" (LOL!)

KoB: “The standard of what self-ownership IS! Self-ownership is total. Period.”


Do you care to define what “self-ownership” is according to KoB, or does this require more religious blind faith in your argument?



~~~



KoB: “Tell me: how can you own part of another person apart from you? Please tell me. And please tell me how someone apart from you can own a part of you.”


It’s not about owning someone else or someone else owning you. It’s necessarily about shared ownership. If I own a house with my wife, and we are both on the deed, that property is shared, and it is ours; I don’t own her, and she doesn’t own me, but we own it together.


It’s your doctrine, I’m just following it to its logical conclusion.


When it comes to another person, if that other person is INSIDE OF YOU, by default you are necessarily SHARING the ownership of that body; that’s a simple physical reality we can prove with a sonogram or an x-ray or a stethoscope or a tube with a camera on the end of it, etc., etc.


If you want to remove or deprive ownership rights with regard to one party in favor of the other, you can’t do that without due process of law; and due process of law demands that both parties have adequate representation and a fair hearing.


~~~


KoB: “Until you do that, you have no basis for your claim. None whatsoever.”


The burden is yours, just as the “claim” (the “doctrine of self-ownership”) is yours, not mine. I would make the argument on different grounds, but this is the ground you’ve chosen; the fact that you have chosen your ground poorly is not my fault, you’re stuck with it.


I recognized the untenable nature of your position in your very first post, the opening post in this Thread. That’s why I responded to it, hoping you would give me the opportunity to demonstrate your error.


You have done so, and I appreciate your cooperation, however reluctantly it has been offered ;-)


(continued next post)

Okay knight of night: How about I say
that you make me nervous and have a very negative impact on my life.

You are very upsetting to me, and my body reacts badly... so then I have to right to off you. I have rights to protect my body!


What a fool you are.




knight_of_baawa - Thanks for playing!


KoB: “What gaping hole?”


The fallacy of your “owning someone else” position, which I demonstrated by clearly showing that it is not about owning someone else, it is necessarily about shared ownership, until or unless you legally deprive one party or the other of their rights under due process of law.


*THAT* gaping hole :-)



~~~



KoB: “I didn't. Why are you lying?”


I am not lying; whatever reputation anyone has on these boards depends on making good-faith arguments, and mine certainly are. I would much rather be wrong than to lie.


Unless your purpose is to diminish your credibility even further by adding yet another unsubstantiated assertion to your growing list of fallacies, you have now obligated yourself to offer some credible proof that I have lied about something. I’d have thought you had enough things on your plate to worry about already, without making things more difficult for yourself, but I give credit where credit’s due, I admire your commitment to go down with the ship :-)

:thumbs up:



~~~



KoB: “So: when are you going to back your claim that self-ownership implies the ability to own others apart from you?”


I have expressly and repeatedly denied any such implication, that’s not my argument, it’s yours, and your attempts to attribute it to me will remain unsuccessful, if for no other reason than because “it just ain’t so” (LOL!)


I have demonstrated clearly the legal concept of shared property ownership, first by example regarding real (estate) property, and then as these same principles necessarily apply to a situation where two individuals share the same real (bodily) property.


You have every right to mount a counter-argument, but you can’t simply pretend that I have not completely undermined your original premise. I mean, you can do it if you want, but I’ll just copy and paste my previous points in response, in which case you still lose, and how is that going to improve your stock?

knight_of_baawa..
being obtuse are we?


knight_of_baawa
Your explanation for the universe always existing is really no explanation. It simply amounts to your saying “the universe has always existed simply because it has always existed.” I would ask for further substantiation, but you would just add to your list of unsubstantiated claims, or give more non-explanations in place of reasoned arguments.

As far as Wikipedia being your source for information, well, that explains a great many things about your failed arguments.

Thanks, but I have no need for a handkerchief as there is no egg on my face. You on the other hand…

Sorry kids,
Gotta go do things productive now, bye.

Farmer's Wife: KoB is such an outrageous

liberal idiot that we just play with him from time to time.

The rest of the time, we just ignore him.

Today is PLAY time! :-)



Anne I understand ...
playtime. My favorite time of day. Did he call you a liberal?

Farmer's Wife: Oh probably! No telling

with knight of night!

Anyone who calls "ME" of all people, a liberal, is, without question, certifiable! And that pretty much nails knight of night...


No question, he is certifiable. Ha Ha Ha Ha





Anne, I thought so...
KOB needs a dictionary. He doesn't know the meaning of the word responsibility either.


Farmer's Wife: Geeze, now he's posting

like roberto roberto... and you know what that means.. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


Too bad for the mentally challenged like kob


Now wait, his next post will be calling me mentally challenged... WHY? Because he's too stupid to THINK.


LOL



Old doctors had it right-------
I am from a family of doctors, and all of my relatives believed during their long lives that children begin life at the point of conception. Nearly all other physicians of that time believed the same thing. They saw it that way because there is no way for a "thing" to magically become a human being at some time during gestation or after the cord is cut. From their perspective, any other view was without the slightest basis in reality and unscientific beyond measure.

The idea that a woman has the right to destroy a baby living within her body would be ridiculous were it not so tragic. The baby is a separate human being living within its mothers body without BEING its mother's body. This becomes thoroughly clear when we consider the fact that the mother does not have four eyes, two noses, four ears, four legs, four arms, two heads, four lungs, two stomachs and both male and female genitalia in some cases. The mother has a moral responsibility to protect her child from all who would do it harm within her body as well as outside her body. Most women do that very thing. To do otherwise amounts to murder most foul, and every woman who aborts her child understands that unalterable fact at some profound level of her being.

Farmer's Wife: He just can't understand

that killing any innocent living human being IS MURDER... no matter how he tries to spin and twist it.

And, spinning and twisting is the only way he, or any of his ilk, try to stay in a descussion like this.


He's just lucky that we too the time to play with him a little. :-)







knight of night:

Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!



Knight of night just so you
understand!

Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!
Abortion is murder!

you are soooo right Anne...
He can't think by himself.


ColinCody: Of course you're right!

And, anyone with at least two functioning brain cells knows it.

We can't get too upset with kob since he doesn't have even two functioning brain cells.




just one more and then playtime...
is over!

If as you say KOB, abortion is slavery. Then the woman and her partner sold her into it of their own free will by not making RESPONSIBLE choices before they created a living human being.



I'm Pro-Lofe
Because killing your offspring defies common sense...something lacking in the liberal mindset.

Pro Life
not Lofe...O and I...too close...

KOB I don't have to
prove it. I have lived it. I am a woman and I am a mother. Have you ever carried a baby? I take it you are male, so if you haven't been there and done that, don't tell me I was not carrying my living childen.

KOB attention is required....
read the rest of the statement.

Responsibility
KOB

Try this. You invite someone into your home. For some reason that person gets stuck and cannot leave your home without being killed. You are responsible for the health and safety of that person until they do leave. Slavery or responsibility?

KoB, You are a DumbA##
They are playing with you, and yes, it's you who is coming off looking like a fool.

If you truely are an "Anarchocapitalist", then very likely I agree with you on more things than I agree with your tormenters, as I am a "rational anarchist" as defined in Heinlein's novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". That would put me closer to you than them on many subjects.

However that does not alter the fact that you have NOT ONCE on this thread made anything that even remotely approaches a rational or logical argument. All you have done, right from the first post is make unsubstantiated assertions and called them logical arguments.

In fact, re: your back and forth w/ Scott, you keep asserting that his position is wrong, when in fact (unless I missed it) he has taken NO position on anything, except that you have not made any valid argument. He keeps pointing out flaws in YOUR argument, but you keep going back and saying that HIS position on the question is wrong. HE STATED NO POSITION on the subject. All he's done is point out your logical bankruptcy.

Just because I may (or may not) agree with you on more than I agree with your tormenters, it does NOT excuse your utter lack of ability to make a rational argument for your position, nor does it say much for your intelligence.

You did a great job of pointing out the logical fallacies in the Psalm post by hogrider (using SOMEONE ELSE's argument), it's just too bad that you are utterly blind to all the same logical flaws in all your own (I will be charitable and call them) arguments.

What a dim bulb...

KOB
1- If a guest is hurt in your home he (she) could sue you successfully.
2- The fetus was issued an open invitation.

The actual subject of Goldberg's article
Now that I have that KoB rant off my chest, I would like to address the original article that JG wrote, and some interesting observations I have made reading this thread. I am usually a couple of days behind reading Townhall, and thus only read the comments after the posters have long gone on to other threads. It may be interesting to finally be able to join in the discussion for once (although KoB's discussion abilities leave vast room to doubt that).

I noticed that JG actually takes a "middle ground" position on abortion. All the posters on this thread, on the other hand, are either absolutist pro-a up to birth, or anti-a from conception, and all the comments are arguing back and forth from those positions. No one ever once addressed JG's middle ground arguments. Why is that? Can no-one from either of the extremes make any response to JG's article? Are his arguments unassailable?

Additional question: Are NONE of you able to see that unless you take up arms and kill each other until only one side is left alive, some sort of compromise will be absolutely required should Roe be overturned? Would it not be a good thing to at least TRY discussing compromise positions that you could each at least live with/tolerate should the worst/best happen and Roe be overturned?

Or do you all intend to fight a civil war on the issue?

If I want an abortion...
...I shall have one. Pure and simple.

If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.

KoB you dim bulb...
How can I look like a fool merely stating an observation on what _I_ see when I read this thread. I do not have to offer the slightest "evidence" for my position because I am not STATING a position. All I did was say what this conversation looks like to me. If someone says George Bush looks like a dummy when he pronounces "Nuclear", they do not have to prove he IS a dummy, because they did not CLAIM he was. All they did was say he looks to them like a dummy. You look to me like a really BIG-TIME dummy.

An observation about what something looks like is not a rational position, it is a subjective opinion...

DumbA##...

KOB
1- Happens all the time in this semi-rational world. That is why most home owners carry liability insurance.
2- The sex act is not an open invitation to create a fetus?

Nam65-66
"...No one is more opposed to abortion than I am,but I never use the term"murder".Murder is a legal term with certain meaning,such as "Illegally taking of human life".But because abortion is legal,murder does not apply."

Do you agree that anyone who has passed laws legalizing his actions is thereby not a mass murderer when millions are slaughtered at his command?

"Murder" is, in fact, used all the time as a moral rather a legal term.

KoB addressed the "Middle Ground"?
I don't think so. You have, right from the start of this thread stated an absolutist position that the woman has the right to terminate the kid right up to birth, because she owns her body and the kid is a trespasser. That's a paraphrase, but I believe it to accurately represent your position. If I were to try to cut-&-paste exact quotes I would be all night scrolling back and forth just to post 1 message.

Given that absolutist position, I do not see that you have made any statement on potentially acceptable compromise at all.
By implication that would seem to mean that if Roe goes, your "compromise position" would involve lots of dead anti-a's.

Cheshire Human
This issue, in its current incarnation, is a creation of the baby boomer generation by way of Roe v. Wade. I think an uneasy peace can be reestablished with a federalist solution if only the media doesn't keep things stirred up. Society muddled through before the SCOTUS decided to help.

Your rant, by the way, was refreshing. Every time I've checked in that troll has been blocking any real discussion. Poor guy, so far he wouldn't pass a simple Turing test.

GeorgiaGal
"It's hard not to be cynical about the pro-life movement. They are pro-life ... until the umbilical cord is cut. If that child has a serious illness and the mother lacks health insurance, well, too bad, so sad, the pro-life movement will pray at the child's funeral."

It's hard not to be cynical about the pro-choice. They are all gushy about life after birth. . . until someone kills the born. If anyone born is hacked to death, well, too bad, so sad, the pro-choicer will fight tooth-and-nail to prevent the person from being punished, quite possibly they already fought to keep that person on the street to commit the murder.

Pro-choicers are habitually soft on crime. They care about people's live only when they aren't in danger of being actively killed.

KOB
1- Before you argue further on this point you might ask a lawyer about a homeowner's responsibilities toward guests. (Why did you bring blacks into this?)
2- If sex is just sex with no recognition of the open invitation to create a baby then we are sure wasting a lot of money on sex education.

"individual rights"

knight_of_Daawa writes: Wednesday, October, 17, 2007 2:13 PM

"Remember: I'm the consistent one here. I'm the one for individual rights."



Except, of course, when he is examining the "individual rights" of the fetus in utero. At that point his consistency evaporates.

knight_of_baawa
"The woman owns her womb and the contents thereof. It's part of self-ownership, which necessarily entails self-sovereignty. The fetus resides in someone else's property."

Do you remain always and forever on property you own? Otherwise, knight, you are arguing that whenever you visit anyone else's, you have forfeited all rights.

Cowards way out...
I did NOT try to back out by saying "that's only my opinion". I stated quite clearly that I was stating a SUBJECTIVE opinion. Note that word in caps. A subjective opinion is by nature unprovable, because it is not a position based on FACTS, but rather a statement about someone's impression of APPEARENCES. You have obviously somewhere obtained some sort of education on logical debate, in that you can mimic the FORM, but you seem to have missed the classes where they told the students that they need some actual CONTENT, and what THAT would actually look like.

jim
"Just to save my time, here is a cut and paste, that’s never been answered or refuted."

It doesn't need refuting because you offered no arguments. I will explain why:

"It is the sexist men who holler the most, “I put it there, and don’t you simple woman disturb it. You may die with it, you may suffer a horrible way of life for many years because of it, the baby may have a horrible life, but don’t destroy it, it’s from a man!! And I can go on my way and completely ignore you and the baby.""

This particular form of argument is known as a LIE.

Opposition to abortion is greater among women than among men.

(Along, of course, with being an _ad hominem_

"
Are you one of those who watch TV news stories of starving babies and cheer, and say, "At least she didn't get an abortion!""

Another _ad hominem_ -- worthy only of the response that you are sitting there cheering that soon the babies will be just as dead as if aborted, and only regret they had lives as long as they did.

self-ownership
"No, I'm arguing no such thing, as I'm arguing strictly about SELF-OWNERSHIP. I don't know why people want to widen the scope and create a strawman."

Because you have painted a great big bull's eye on it yourself?

You would have been wiser to chose another term than "self-ownership." If you don't want us to treat it as synonym for "ownership of property that happens to be one's body" you had better define it more clearly, and explain why you think we can't call it another form of property with all the baggage going with it.

knight_of_baawa
"When in doubt, err on the side of rights. THAT is the proper stance."

Very true. I'm glad you've converted.

Since of course, if you were unconscious, we would protect your rights, if necessary, by giving up your property or even having a limb amputed to protect your life, we must of course start with the right we all agree is most fundamental.

I’m coming after him
Anne writes: Wednesday, October, 17, 2007 6:51 PM
knight of night! You are such a short

I certainly hope that someday you don't end up needing to be kept alive by means other than your own. Then, according to your irrational thinkng process, we can consider you exactly as you consider a "fetus" and just end your sorry pathetic life!
=============
And in that respect I am like a fetus.

I’ve told my Doctor that if he ever hooks me to one of those stupid, dumb machines, he better hope it doesn’t work, because if it does I’m coming after him.


knight_of_baawa
Never again say anything about "science." You have demonstrated here that you know nothing about it:

"Your assumption is also incorrect. You have an idiotic belief that the universe was somehow created or otherwise came into existence. It wasn't and didn't. The universe, necessarily, has always existed. It cannot not exist."

Science is in hearty agreement with religion here. The universe began at the Big Bang. While there is slightly more debate about how it will end (the heat death looks most likely on the evidence), there is none at all that it will end.

MellorSJ2 - you can't HAVE an abortion!


Hi everyone, I just got back, and after reading all the comments posted since I left earlier I am absolutely laughing out loud!!!


You guys have sure taken poor kobby to the woodshed and back a few times…



MellorSJ2 writes: "If I want an abortion...
...I shall have one. Pure and simple."


Stephen, you can't HAVE an abortion, even if you WANTED one... you're a DUDE... you've got no uterus, LOL!!!






knight_of_baawa
""If you don't want us to treat it as synonym for "ownership of property that happens to be one's body" "

That's what it means. You widened it"

Make up your mind. You admit that it means "ownership that happens to be of one's body" and then whine when we talk about what ownership actually entails.

rjoachimm
R: This issue, in its current incarnation, is a creation of the baby boomer generation by way of Roe v. Wade. I think an uneasy peace can be reestablished with a federalist solution if only the media doesn't keep things stirred up. Society muddled through before the SCOTUS decided to help.

C: I personally think you are right about that, but given the animosity on both sides that has developed since Roe, I believe that there is a very good possibility of civil strife (read: violence) should it be handed back to society by the overturn of Roe. I do not recall reading history any subject with this much venom on the two sides since slavery, and that lead to the bloodiest war in US history.


R: Your rant, by the way, was refreshing. Every time I've checked in that troll has been blocking any real discussion. Poor guy, so far he wouldn't pass a simple Turing test.

C: There is a computer program that goes all the way back to mainframes in the '60s (I believe) called "Eliza". It imitated a psychiatrist psychoanalyzing the user. It actually passes the simplest of Turing Tests, in that many users were convinced there was a live person typing "Eliza's" responses on the other end of a teletype link. Do you suppose "baawa" is "Eliza" in some sort of cipher?

Jonah Goldberg Said at the top
of his article...

"I don’t know if life begins at conception. I don’t really know what “life” means. Consciousness? Possessing a soul? Well, if consciousness defines the issue, then life surely does not begin at conception. Not even the most adamant pro-lifer claims otherwise."


The Left always says that life began in a biotic-soup of amino acids. Some chemicals came to gether and began to reproduce themselves. No great Creator had a hand in it, it just happened by accident or chance.

Well, as far as anyone knows, a amino acid has no consciousness. But if consciousness defines life, then it could not have begun according to their theory.

If on the other hand, these amino acids are alive, then by extension, a fertilized human egg, with many more times the amino acids than those first one, is also alive.

Unless, of course, you are consistent like knight-the-dumb-a##-atheist-with-asthma.

knight_of_baawa
"I'll make it simple for you:"

Simple to refute at any rate.
"Does the woman own herself?

YES!"

I'll grant this

"Does the woman own her womb?

YES!"

I'll grant this.

"Can the woman have anything in her womb removed?

YES!"

Does not follow. Ownership doesn't confer the right to violently remove anyone who happens to be on the owned property.

"Does the fetus have the right to be in the womb?

NO!"

YES!!!!!!

It's not even a case of invitation, since an invitation can be refused. The woman has put the baby into the womb and inflicted a state of dependency on it.

You can not demand someone be removed from property you own if their medical condition prevents it. Doubly so if you cause the condition -- such as throwing someone down the stairs.

"Does the fetus have any standing as a moral agent at all?

NO!"

YES.

"Too bad that you want to make women slaves, Anne. It's odd, considering that you're a woman. Why do you hate yourself?"

I will split this off.

knight_of_baawa, split off
"Too bad that you want to make women slaves, Anne. It's odd, considering that you're a woman. Why do you hate yourself?"

I split this off because it is the heart of your problem.

This is a hateful, sexist, misogynist, antifemist argument.

Women become pregnant. It is the basical biological mark of women, that they become pregnant. A woman who becomes pregnant is not made a slave; she is merely being a woman.

To argue for abortion because pregnancy is slavery is sexist. In same manner and extent as it would be racist for a pre-Civil-War person to argue for skin whitener and hair straightener for blacks to avoid slavery.

knight_of_baawa
"Self-ownership is quite different. You can give away or purchase existents which are separate from you. However, you can't give yourself away."

Ah, so you do have a difference.

However, you are erecting a straw man because you claim that this means that you have rights to evict the baby that you don't have over ordinary property. On the contrary. If you were on my property, you could have gone on someone else's. But when you were a baby in the womb, you couldn't have. You could not give away your position or purchase a different position. The baby can't give its relation to its mother away; therefore, its claim on its mother is stronger than the ordinary claim of people on property.

knight_of_baawa
"When you share ownership with someone else or a group, somewhere along the line an agreement was made between you (or your proxy or someone who came before you and gifted/sold the part-ownership) and the other party or parties.

I'm wondering what such agreement takes place between a fetus and the woman. Answer: no such agreement takes place."

The lie in the latter paragraph is dependant on the lie in the former. You can co-own property without having done anything, even by proxy. As in, an inheritance, or having something made over to you.

And you are responsible for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of your actions. If you hit someone when you merely meant to drive to the store, you can sued for making over your own property to someone else, on the grounds you are defrauding the victim of your own actions.

Cheshire Human
Poll data indicates that most people are against abortion but would support limited choice. The passion is mostly make believe. I'm not saying more people couldn't get whipped into a lather if the press really worked on it. That level of activism is rare today, though. This issue is a bit to nuanced for the can't really hold a thought crowd. reasonable folks will prevail.

Eliza was fun. This would be Eliza re-scripted by a malignant, precocious 12 year-old with no friends.

MellorSJ2
"If I want an abortion...
...I shall have one. Pure and simple.

If you don't want an abortion, don't have one."

I dare say if you don't want to commit robbery, you won't, but you will have no objections if I want to commit a robbery and rob you.

Cheshire Human - Thank you.


I would like to thank you for your post, particularly since you would apparently not ordinarily take my side.


You nailed it, in a way that only someone who claims to understand him could do, and it was very funny :-)



Cheshire Human writes: “KoB, You are a DumbA##
They are playing with you, and yes, it's you who is coming off looking like a fool.

If you truely are an "Anarchocapitalist", then very likely I agree with you on more things than I agree with your tormenters, as I am a "rational anarchist" as defined in Heinlein's novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". That would put me closer to you than them on many subjects.

However that does not alter the fact that you have NOT ONCE on this thread made anything that even remotely approaches a rational or logical argument. All you have done, right from the first post is make unsubstantiated assertions and called them logical arguments.

In fact, re: your back and forth w/ Scott, you keep asserting that his position is wrong, when in fact (unless I missed it) he has taken NO position on anything, except that you have not made any valid argument. He keeps pointing out flaws in YOUR argument, but you keep going back and saying that HIS position on the question is wrong. HE STATED NO POSITION on the subject. All he's done is point out your logical bankruptcy.

Just because I may (or may not) agree with you on more than I agree with your tormenters, it does NOT excuse your utter lack of ability to make a rational argument for your position, nor does it say much for your intelligence.

You did a great job of pointing out the logical fallacies in the Psalm post by hogrider (using SOMEONE ELSE's argument), it's just too bad that you are utterly blind to all the same logical flaws in all your own (I will be charitable and call them) arguments.

What a dim bulb...”

knight_of_baawa
"Sex is just that--sex. It's not an invitation to create a fetus. Consenting to sex is consenting to sex. Nothing more."

A woman who believes this has no legal right to an abortion because she can not understand consequences. She can not possibly consent because she can't understand that she could end up dead or crippled because of the abortion.

Mentally competent women are capable of understanding the reasonable foreseeable consequences of their actions.

knight_of_baawa
"If a woman legally is forbidden from having an abortion, she no longer owns herself in a very real sense. The fetus does. She is the slave of the fetus."

And that is where the sexism lies. You assert that women are BY NATURE slaves because women are BY NATURE the sex that becomes pregnant.

Try again, Birdman. Or should I say...
No, sorry, Birdman is not my sock puppet. I just created this account tonight because my main computer is down (gotta get a new motherboard tomorrow) and this old one I'm using has an ancient web browser on it that won't render the login page properly, so I can't log in to my original account. And no, it isn't a name you would recognize because I have never participated in an active discussion using it. I'm usually too far behind reading TH to see live discussions, because my main machine is used for business that takes too much of my time to participate. Main machine down, can't do my normal stuff, time to kill, laugh at troll while joining actual live discussion. No sock puppet. This machine is too slow to be able to keep up 1 ID at a proper rate, let alone run sock puppets, too...

Abortion rights?
In all of these discourses, there is a missing element. Everyone should agree, that life comes from the man, the woman nurtures and sustaines it. It would seem that if a life is to be terminated, the giver should be part of the decision. If the ending of that life is legally a joint decision, then the response might be different. Do you suppose that the trend might be to forgo the termination of a life if the responsibility is shared? At the moment, it is all one way. The new life, is the result of action of two people, not one.

universe began to exist in Big Bang
[knight_of_baawa on October 17, 2007]"That the universe has always existed is necessarily true."

The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/443d6bc0b02 dd25e?dmode=source

The Discovery That the Universe Is Expanding: Developments in
Theoretical and Observational Cosmology, 1915-1930
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.44L.01.0308 140928380.13996-100000%40linux2.gl.umbc.edu

Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1 %40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1 %40individual.net

knight_of_baawa
""You assert that women are BY NATURE slaves because women are BY NATURE the sex that becomes pregnant."

WRONG!

I assert that because of the FACT that they are LEGALLY PREVENTED from having an abortion, they are slaves. If the woman wants to have the baby and is legally able to have an abortion, that's a different story. But as long as she's LEGALLY PREVENTED from having an abortion, she has been rendered a slave to the fetus."

You're the one who's wrong. You asserted that if a woman is legally prevented from abnormally terminating a state that is hers by NATURE, she is a slave.

NO ONE NEEDS SURGERY NOT TO BE A SLAVE.

EVERYONE BY NATURE IS FIT TO BE FREE.

You might as well argue that if the Southerners agreed to free every black who had cosmetic surgery to look white, they would be entitled to enslave the rest.

rjoachimm, Scott
R: Poll data indicates that most people are against abortion but would support limited choice. The passion is mostly make believe.... This issue is a bit to nuanced for the can't really hold a thought crowd....

C: Unfortunately, we already have examples of CAN-hold-a-thoughts getting violent. Sniping is a VERY deliberate and premeditated activity. On the can't-hold side, I've seen some interesting web videos of pro-a's lashing out.

R: reasonable folks will prevail.

C: We can hope...

R: Eliza was fun. This would be Eliza re-scripted by a malignant, precocious 12 year-old with no friends.

C: I see you've met Eliza. Remember how, when you insulted her, every now and then your insult would show up in her conversation verbatim to how you said it? KoB - "Dim Bulb". perhaps you are right, but I would say 30-something nerd with no real computer skills so he's left trolling discussion boards because he can't use his machine for anything more interesting. Or she, can't discount the possibility of a female nerd...

Scott:
I would like to thank you for your post, particularly since you would apparently not ordinarily take my side.

C: Happy to oblige, but as far as not taking your side, I don't know what your side IS. As I said, all I saw you write was torpedoes of his "arguments". I don't recall you actually taking a position on abortion. I don't know if we agree or not...

S: You nailed it, in a way that only someone who claims to understand him could do, and it was very funny :-)

C: I myself have been known to do a bit of trolling on occaision, and his argument style is the usual style of idiot I like to pick on when I do...

Both:
Sorry to take so long replying, as you can see in my Birdman-Sock Puppet post, I'm working under a handicap tonight.

benighted of bow-wow, we will force...
knight_of_baawa writes: Wednesday, October, 17, 2007 12:19 AM
So you admit
That being against abortion is being against personal liberty, and you glibly dismiss any criticism via the notion that governments control our bodies anyway. Well so what? They haven't the right to do that, period. And no one has the right to legally prevent a woman from exercising her self-ownership by making abortion illegal. You can be anti-abortion (it's not pro-life) all you want; you just can't force that upon others.
_________________________________________________

In the same way that we have forced our anti-murder on others, we will force our anti-abortion on others. We will win this battle, do not doubt. You cannot imagine the Resources we have.

Further, bein anti-abortion is being pro life. Absolutely. There are other components to the pro life business, but eliminating abortion is definitely part of it.

benighted is a...
knight_of_baawa writes: Wednesday, October, 17, 2007 7:25 PM
Anne is a liberal
Anyone who isn't an anarchocapitalist is a dirty, no-good, liberal statist.
______________________________________________

There is the explanation of benighted of bow-wow: He is a capitaloanarchist. Oops, a syncretocapitalist. Nope, a electroanarchist. Wait, I'm getting closer: oh, heck, he's just a confusedomasochistlogicaldrivelingidiot.

Mellor, you are a bitransexual, no?
MellorSJ2 writes: Wednesday, October, 17, 2007 9:35 PM
If I want an abortion...
...I shall have one. Pure and simple.

If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
_____________________________________________

Mellor, you are a trisexual, you can't have an abortion. Are you confused? Or was that a bisexual/transgender? A transbisexual? Those homosexuals certainly are confused.

benighted bowwow: powerful stufff
knight_of_baawa writes: Thursday, October, 18, 2007 12:00 AM
Hi benighted
"In the same way that we have forced our anti-murder on others,"

No. For you see: the fetus has no rights. A better example for you would be blue laws, restrictions on the sale of alcohol because of religious reasons, and restrictions on gambling.

And being anti-abortion is pro-slavery, not pro-life.
___________________________________________

Yes, for you see murder is a capital crime. We will see to it that the rights of the preborn babies be respected.

You can consider being anti-abortion as being pro-slavery but you are wrong: It is definitely pro the life of the baby.

That electroanarchism is certainly powerful stuff.

Roe v Wade and right to privacy
If you are curious at all about the contrived Roe v Wade decision, how forced it was, how it was made to give the libs/lefties/feminists all they wanted and more, how Blackmun and his wife and daughters found the right to privacy somewhere on Pluto, but certainly not in the Constitution, you should make an effort to look it up. But you have to have a strong stomach, because the liberal games are sickening.

Yes, I'm just dirty, statist.
benighted of bowwow: If you are referring to me as benighted, again it is amazing how an intellect like you can resort ot such a childish, unhumorous reference. You high falutin' [trumpets] knight of bowwow or whatever it is INVITES tampering with.

Anyway, if it is me you are calling dirty, statist, yes, my family has called me dirty after a day of working on my properties--what can I say? I am dirty then. It is impossible to be as clean as a capitalosynthetist (hypoanarchist? sadocapitalist? what was it you said you were again?) Whatever you are, that is the standard for cleanliness! Yes, indeed!

As to the statist part, yes, I agree that I am a statist. No one but a syncretomasochist like you can afford purism.

Gender and Abortion
Some thoughts. It is curious that the vast majority of commentators on this issue are men. It is easy for us to have an opinion because we will never be in the position of being pregnant. I know that some women think this is all about men being able to control women, and maybe they are on to something. Might be better to let women debate this one. They are the ones affected. It also does seem to be true that to many pro-lifers life begins at conception and ends at birth. The last thing that bothers me is that there does seem to be a feeling that if a woman becomes pregnant, she must somehow be punished, and people want to forbid her choices to sort of teach her a lesson.

It's obvious that K_o_b has WAY, WAY

too much time on his hands.........

He's posted a ga-zillion comments on this thread, and NOT ONE of any substance... or intelligence for that matter.

Whatever cult he's part of must have seen him coming 50 miles away, and it probably took the cult about 10mins. to get him.

Low intelligence = Easy prey!





links to stupidity
"I find it laughable that anyone would actually be so dumb as to provide links to his stupidity."

Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1 %40individual.net

The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/443d6bc0b02 dd25e?dmode=source

The Shroud of Turin's 'Blood' Images: Blood, or Paint?
A History of Science Inquiry
go to the "Student Papers" link on the left-hand side of:
http://www.shroud2000.com/StudentCenter.html
A slightly earlier copy is on the website
http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm

Essay on Problems with Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.1000 5310900310.17702-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu

Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.6451 39.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian, atheistic a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.0690 39.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah's Arrival
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/10ac5d963df a0eba?hl=en&

atheists: think Adolf Eichmann knew how to handle the Bible?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1179538904.058663.2178 00%40l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com

once-devout Catholic Himmler "became, by the 1930s, a militant anti-Catholic"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2074cf235b89 c5fc?hl=en&

selfish, devout atheist makes a discovery
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1189710468.679694.9461 0%4022g2000hsm.googlegroups.com

To "ken" from Ken
"Some thoughts. It is curious that the vast majority of commentators on this issue are men. It is easy for us to have an opinion because we will never be in the position of being pregnant."

My name is Ken, but I didn't post the comment above. The fact is, more women are pro-life than men. Many early feminists, such as Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, spoke out against abortion. They called it "child murder", and believed it enabled men to exploit women as sexual objects.

If you do some research, you'll find that men who oppose abortion are generally the ones who respect women. Men who regard women as sex objects tend to favor abortion on demand.

If I want a slave...
[MellorSJ2 on October 17, 2007]
"If I want an abortion...
...I shall have one. Pure and simple.
If you don't want an abortion, don't have one."

If I want a slave...
...I shall buy one. Pure and simple.
If you don't want a slave, don't buy one.

//////////////////////////////////////////////
atheocratic North Korea's slave trade
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1131559540.282445. 90700%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Gulag concentration camp slave labor in Soviet atheocracy
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1175263725.138741.1334 80%40n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

Is infanticide "evil"?; Reagan; Nordau
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1131387293.922571.1475 70%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

1989 Koster: "it was Christianity that put an end to slavery around the globe"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406281819.5f 06fed5%40posting.google.com

Tutu: "If any book should be banned by those who rule unjustly and as tyrants, then it is the Bible."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1179340230.530341.3173 70%40o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com

To ken (with the little "k")


ken writes: “It is curious that the vast majority of commentators on this issue are men.”


Not when you consider that the majority of people who comment on ANY issue here on TH are men. Then it’s not curious at all, it’s just that there are more men posting here in general than women.



~~~



ken writes: “It is easy for us to have an opinion because we will never be in the position of being pregnant.”


Oh, man. Don’t you ever get tired of that regurgitated 30+ year-old talking-point garbage?

It couldn’t be any more lame if you said it while Helen Reddy’s “I am Woman, hear Me Roar” was blaring in the background...



~~~



ken writes: “I know that some women think this is all about men being able to control women, and maybe they are on to something.”


They're not on to anything ken, they’re just nuts.



~~~



ken writes: “Might be better to let women debate this one.”


Or it might not be.



~~~



ken writes: “They are the ones affected.”


Like the old commercial goes… a mind is a terrible thing… to waste…



~~~



ken writes: “It also does seem to be true that to many pro-lifers life begins at conception and ends at birth.”


Really? Did you get that impression here? Or is that just a bumper-sticker slogan you saw?



~~~



ken writes: “The last thing that bothers me is that there does seem to be a feeling that if a woman becomes pregnant, she must somehow be punished, and people want to forbid her choices to sort of teach her a lesson.”


Where’s that “feeling” emanating from, ken?


Or is it really kendra?


You couldn’t be this consistently wrong about so much by accident...



KOB
Your comments state that abortion is not murder. This statement makes you sound like you believe that abortion does not take the life of a living being. So what is your definition of abortion?

knight_of_baawa - finishing touches ;-)


knight_of_baawa writes: "Taking the life of a human != murder".


We are agreed that the taking of a human life is murder, certainly in the context of abortion.



~~~~~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: "And I can get you to agree with me by reminding you that if someone attacks you and in the struggle that person is killed, it's not murder."


And if someone attacks YOU and YOU are killed, the attacker HAS committed murder.


The abortion procedure is a premeditated attack (malice aforethought) on the life of the baby, and during the struggle of the abortion procedure, that baby is murdered.



~~~~~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: "It's killing in self-defense.”


Not in the context of an abortion it’s not. The infant child attacked no one, so neither the mother nor the abortion doctor can claim they murdered the baby is “self-defense”.


You’re terrible at this, KoB.


KOB
I agree that not all taking of life is equal to murder (for example in a war) but you are splitting hairs. Answer the question. What is your definition of abortion and do you think it is the taking of a living being? If not, then please explain what you think abortion is. If you think it is the taking of a living being, then please explain how why you believe this to be okay.

KoB - Imitation & flattery are nice, but


Me (previously): "The abortion procedure is a premeditated attack "


KoB replies: “Wrong.”


How is it possibly “wrong”?


Is it your position that the mother accidentally wandered into an abortion clinic, filled out all the necessary paperwork, accidentally scheduled an appointment for the murder and then accidentally returned to commit the murder?


Or is it your position that the abortion doctor accidentally spent hundreds of medical school hours in preparation for this “specialty”, accidentally scheduled the appointment to murder the baby, accidentally used specialized tools on parts of the mother’s reproductive organs, and then accidentally terminated the life of the baby that was growing inside the mother?


I don’t think there’s anything “accidental” about it. The case for premeditation could not be clearer, even the Simpson jury could get this right.


If you deny that having an abortion is a premeditated act, then make your best case to back it up!



~~



KoB: “And you're presuming that the fetus has the right to be in the womb, i.e. that the fetus owns the womb. Yet you haven't demonstrated that to be true. That's called the fallacy of begging the question.”


The baby DOES have the right to be in the womb, that’s what the womb was DESIGNED for. Where else should the baby go?


Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have. If you would seek to deprive another individual of life or liberty, the burden is on you, not the target of your attack.


Even the “dreaded state” recognizes that it must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty.


What kind of world do you envision where either individuals or the “state” could deprive YOU of life or liberty FIRST, and only THEN could you defend yourself afterwards (if deprived of liberty) or not at all (if deprived of life)?


Is that what the world of KoB is like?

knight_of_baawa - other peoples' work...


knight_of_baawa writes: "Oh Scott - You still haven't commented on Hoppe's argumentation ethics and how he demonstrates the basis of self-ownership."



Make your own argument (if you can), and I'll address it.


I'm not interested in your copy-and-paste jobs of other peoples' work ;-)

knight_of_baawa
"It's not hers by nature, unless you mean pregnancy qua pregnancy. However, pregnancy does not mean slavery unless the woman is legally prevented from being able to end that pregnancy."

No natural state of the body is slavery. You wouldn't say a woman was a slave because she had cancer, or a sunburn, or a face she wanted to rearragne with cosmetic surgery.

"It is YOU who are misogynistic."

You have expressed the most blatant contempt for me and every other woman on the face of the earth. You have asserted that women are by nature slaves, and can only be saved from it by having the essential biological distinction between them and men erasable by surgery.

Blacks do not need cosmetic surgery to pass in order to escape slavery. They do not even need to have it available, and suggesting that it would need to be available is as hateful and racist as saying that they would need to receive it.

knight_of_baawa - running away again?


knight_of_baawa writes: “How is it possibly correct?”


If you are denying that an abortion is a premeditated act, then you have stepped outside the bounds of reality; you can no longer even pretend to be arguing in good faith.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “In no way is it an attack on anything. In fact, since the fetus isn't wanted, technically by its being in the womb it is trespassing, albeit in somewhat of an inadvertent manner.”


Then honor your own supposed standard and “Prove it. Don't just assert: PROVE!”



~~~



Scott wrote previously: "Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have."

KoB replied: “Prove it. Don't just assert: PROVE!”


I presented my case, but apparently you didn’t have a coherent counter-argument so you pretended to miss it.


I’ll repeat it here for you again, and if you avoid it again I’ll call you on it again:


Scott wrote previously: “Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have. If you would seek to deprive another individual of life or liberty, the burden is on you, not the target of your attack.


Even the “dreaded state” recognizes that it must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty.


What kind of world do you envision where either individuals or the “state” could deprive YOU of life or liberty FIRST, and only THEN could you defend yourself afterwards (if deprived of liberty) or not at all (if deprived of life)?”


knight_of_baawa - show me.


knight_of_baawa writes: “I'm denying that it's one of aggression.”


Then why didn’t you just SAY that in the first place? Why always approach every discussion with the intentional obtuseness of a freshman college philosophy student?


Half of your difficulty on these boards is specifically your inability to communicate your thoughts. You might even have some defensible positions, but you haven’t the first clue as to how to express yourself properly.


So we are agreed that an abortion is a premeditated act (winning that demonstrable obvious concession was like pulling teeth), but you insist that the abortion procedure is not an act of “aggression” toward the baby?


Is that an accurate statement of your position? Is that the ground you want to defend now?



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “Do feel free to destroy your credibility by creating a strawman, though.”


I’m content to let others determine my credibility based on my actions here and the way I conduct myself. By that standard, it would not seem to be in your own self-interest to be raising the subject of credibility…



~~~



KoB: “In no way is it an attack on anything. In fact, since the fetus isn't wanted, technically by its being in the womb it is trespassing, albeit in somewhat of an inadvertent manner.”


Scott: "Then honor your own supposed standard and “Prove it. "


KoB: “Already did.”


If that is true, please copy and paste your previous exact rebuttal defense, in quotes, in your forthcoming response. If it’s not true, then you have demonstrated yourself to be a liar, I had nothing to do with it, it’s on you.



knight_of_baawa - unfinished business...


Scott: "Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have."

KoB: “Prove it. Don't just assert: PROVE!”

Scott: "I presented my case,"

KoB: “No, you presented a bunch of assertions. That isn't a case by any stretch of the imagination.”



I’ll repeat it here for you again, and if you avoid it again I’ll call you on it again:


Scott wrote previously: “Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have. If you would seek to deprive another individual of life or liberty, the burden is on you, not the target of your attack.


Even the “dreaded state” recognizes that it must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty.


What kind of world do you envision where either individuals or the “state” could deprive YOU of life or liberty FIRST, and only THEN could you defend yourself afterwards (if deprived of liberty) or not at all (if deprived of life)?”


KoB - must establish positions first...



Me: “What kind of world do you envision where either individuals or the “state” could deprive YOU of life or liberty FIRST, and only THEN could you defend yourself afterwards (if deprived of liberty) or not at all (if deprived of life)?”


KoB replies: “What sort of world would it be if a person had to ask permission from the state to get piercings or to get a haircut?”


Non-responsive and disingenuous; the issue is one of life (and liberty) and death, necessarily a much higher standard than piercings or haircuts.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “What sort of world would it be if you were legally prevented from getting a haircut or having a tumor removed?”


Non-responsive and disingenuous; the issue is one of life (and liberty) and death, necessarily a much higher standard than having a tumor removed.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “IOW: self-ownership is paramount.”


1) You have never defined what “self-ownership” means (notwithstanding other people’s work, it’s your argument, put it in your own words).


2) Until or unless you explain what you mean by “self-ownership” and explain WHY it is “paramount” (besides a divine decree of KoB), your position is nothing more than an assertion without substantiation.



~~~



knight_of_baawa writes: “Any attack on it necessarily supports some form of slavery.”


That is a non-sequitur by default, until or unless you credibly establish the premises in numbers 1 and 2 above:


non se•qui•tur
–noun 1. Logic. an inference or a conclusion that does not follow from the premises.
2. a statement containing an illogical conclusion.



knight_of_baawa - No Logic, No case.
Me: "So we are agreed that an abortion is a premeditated act… but you insist that the abortion procedure is not an act of “aggression” toward the baby?"


KoB: “Yep. The woman is removing something from her womb that she doesn't want there. It's not an aggression toward the fetus, since, as I said, technically the fetus is trespassing.”


Non-sequitur. You repeatedly demonstrate your inability to communicate logically. Whether a person is trespassing or not has no bearing on the aggressive nature of the act to remove the person.


If you trespass on my property and I blow your head off with a shotgun, that was an act of aggression, whether you were invited or trespassing.


Do you even try to anticipate the obvious rebuttals to your comments?


In summary, we have agreed that abortion is a premeditated act, and your contention that abortion is not an act of aggression toward the baby (regardless of the invitation vs. trespassing status) is demonstrably and conclusively false.


~~


Me: "I’m content to let others determine my credibility based on my actions here"

KoB: "And I've determined that you're dishonest and disingenuous."


I should have clarified that I'm content to let others besides you and me “determine my credibility based on my actions here and the way I conduct myself. By that standard, it would not seem to be in your own self-interest to be raising the subject of credibility…”


~~


Kob: “No. Scroll up. Read the quote from Hoppe. Also, read Walter Block's writings on the matter. http://www.walterblock.com”


That’s what I thought. The burden is on you to make your own case, the burden is not on your opponent to research your case and make it for you.


You are incapable of adequately explaining your own positions, you must rely on others to speak for you, as though you were a child.


This can’t be a very proud moment for you KoB, I’m sorry…


knight_of_baawa - you're not for real.


I’ll repeat it here for you again, and if you avoid it again I’ll call you on it again:


Scott wrote previously: “Regardless of how the baby got there, it has every right to life that you or I have. If you would seek to deprive another individual of life or liberty, the burden is on you, not the target of your attack.


Even the “dreaded state” recognizes that it must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty.


What kind of world do you envision where either individuals or the “state” could deprive YOU of life or liberty FIRST, and only THEN could you defend yourself afterwards (if deprived of liberty) or not at all (if deprived of life)?”



benighted bowow: refute this
benighted of bowwow, refute this:

In 2006, the Guttmacher Institute, closely tied to Planned Parenthood, rated the states on the effectiveness of their state-funded birth control distribution programs. New York and California were rated excellent, Nebraska was rated poor. Which of these states do you think have high abortion rates? Remember, Planned Parenthood claims that better access to birth control will reduce abortions. It turns out that New York and California are among the states with the highest abortion rates while Nebraska has low abortion rates. Planned Parenthood's own statistics demonstrate the failure to achieve their claimed results. Who is surprised???

benighted of wowowow loses again
Scott is logical, calm, in control, and respectful.

benighted of uyuyuy is hysterical, incapable of anything resembling logic, regardless of his high falutin' terms, and...well, why bother, he is attempting to defend the indefensible. But that is common among narcotocapitalists--doggone, I can't seem to get the benighted of heyheyhey term quite right: Is it capitalophallists? psychoanarchists? endodontoanarchists? archaeocapitalists? I don't want to have to scroll up to where he uses the term. Somebody help me.

where are the Blacks in this...
...discussion about abortion, the phenomenon which takes a disproportionate percentage of Black babies' lives?

Could it be that too many Blacks have been seduced by the lib/lefty program for them in general, and abortion being a part of the lib/lefty program, they just sheepishly follow along, too timid to protest for fearing of losing the goodies that the libs/lefties promise them?

But let's get specific: Here is what abortion and Planned Parenthood are doing to Blacks.

In the US today, almost as many Black children are aborted as are born.

A Black baby is three times more likely to be
killed in the womb than a white baby.

Since 1973, abortion has reduced the Black population by over 25%.

Twice as many Blacks have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined.

Every three days, more Blacks are killed by abortion than have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history.

Planned Parenthood operates the nation's largest chain of abortion clinics and almost 80 percent of its facilities are located in minority neighborhoods.

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.

I apologize, benighted of ayayay
I did not mean for you to refute it, I meant for a lib/lefty to refute it, and of course you are not a lib/lefty, you are a hypoallergenicanarchist, or something terribly significant like that.

It has nothing to do with who owns her womb, soon to be who owns her or his womb, when the perverts convince the APA to push for TOTAL sex change operations, not just the superficial.

It has nothing to do with the baby just showing up, without an invitation. It has nothing to do with your other ridiculous phrenocapilalist points.

KoB - The demolition of your argument...


Scott: "If you trespass on my property and I blow your head off with a shotgun, that was an act of aggression, whether you were invited or trespassing."

KoB: "is a red herring."


False. You have asserted that what I said is a "red herring" without demonstrating that it is in fact a red herring, as though you are officiating the debate instead of participating in it.


The burden is on you to support your statements, otherwise they are unsubstantiated assertions without weight or credibility. You can’t be a participant in the debate one moment and then become an official ‘handing down decrees from on-high’ the next; that's the intellectual equivalent of saying "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" when you're backed into a corner.


Here’s the definition of “red herring” (Dictionary.com)

–noun
1. a smoked herring
2. something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue


My comment was NOT a “red herring” because there is NOTHING misleading or diverting in the example I used, and here’s why.


In YOUR OWN words, you claim that the REASON abortion is NOT “an act of aggression toward the fetus” is BECAUSE “technically the fetus is trespassing”. In YOUR OWN words, the *determining factor* of whether an action is one of aggression OR NOT is the conditional status (i.e., trespassing) of the individual.


My response clearly demonstrated that REGARDLESS of whether someone is “TRESSPASSING” or not, the act of REMOVING someone by means of DEATH is a de facto act of AGGRESSION:


Me: “Whether a person is trespassing or not has no bearing on the aggressive nature of the act to remove the person. If you trespass on my property and I blow your head off with a shotgun, that was an act of aggression, whether you were invited or trespassing.”


That is not a “red herring”.


It is the demolition of your argument.


(again! :-)


knight_of_baawa - Get well


Kobby, you remain the most fundamentally dishonest individual I have yet encountered here on Townhall.com


You have tremendous difficulty in composing coherent arguments, and you frequently display childlike imitation or “parroting” behavior toward those you are communicating with. This behavior clearly has a juvenile “Beavis and Butthead-style” appeal to you, but as you grow older, you will come to recognize it for what it is, intellectual laziness and intentional disrespect towards others. Immaturity and the inability to express oneself clearly are not character-related, but fundamental dishonesty and intentional disrespect is.


You are “logically challenged” to such an extent that you simply deny the reality of that which you disagree with, and assert realities with which you do agree, but do so without foundation. You constantly assert conclusions without substantiation, and when you are called on it, you dodge the inquiry by claiming that you substantiated your position previously. When evidence is demanded in the simple form of copying and pasting your alleged previous substantiation in quotes, you refuse, and change the subject.


Conversing with you is often like playing the old arcade game "whack-a-mole", except a lot of the time you don't even try to duck into your hole and pop-up elsewhere, often you're content to just sit there and get whacked mercilessly, pretending like it isn’t happening, in a real-life demonstration of psychological denial that borders on the absurd, while multiple witnesses observe the reality of the situation with their own eyes and tell you so. This is strange behavior on your part, to say the least.


It's the darndest thing I've experienced here on TH with someone who ostensibly presents himself as a "serious" individual…


You may have the last word KoB, if you think you can handle it. You deserve something for your efforts.


I hope you get better,


Scott

benighted of chihuahua: personal choice?
knight_of_baawa writes: Thursday, October, 18, 2007 11:02 PM
benighted luis
"the phenomenon which takes a disproportionate percentage of Black babies' lives?"

Ummm...it's a personal choice. It's not like heart disease or sickle cell anemia. I fail to see how you can even properly ask your question.
____________________________________________

What is your theory as to why 13% of the female population have 35% of the abortions committed on them? It doesn't sound like personal choice to me. But then your enlightened capitalojesuitical, did I get that right? should be able to explain in your own inimitable way. (paleogratzer? anarchophistulariness? Am I close?)

I properly ask my question because I have a few Black friends and do not want to see the Black race on its way to extermination.

Again, where are the Blacks on the Jonah Goldberg article? On abortion massacring their race? On the Margaret Sanger hangover? Does anybody know why they are not posting? Or are they posting and not revealing their race? Not that anybody has to, but it would seem that victims of the lib/lefty scam would be indignant enough to state their credentials.

benighted of hooeyhooey
knight_of_baawa writes: Thursday, October, 18, 2007 11:02 PM
benighted luis
"the phenomenon which takes a disproportionate percentage of Black babies' lives?"

Ummm...it's a personal choice. It's not like heart disease or sickle cell anemia. I fail to see how you can even properly ask your question.


"It has nothing to do with who owns her womb"

Actually, it has everything to do with it. All rights are property rights.

And I'm laughing at you so hard right now that I'm about to split my sides. You have such a hatred of "large words", don't you? It's that whole anti-intellectualism of christianity. But then: christianity has a greater appeal to the stupid.
________________________________________________

You are making some unfounded assumptions, bad ones. I wouldn't know about Christian anti-intellectualism, and I wouldn't know about Christianity having a greater appeal to the stupid. But then you are a desperate person.

I hope your sides recover from the unjustified laughing. On the other hand, why do I imagine that you do not have the capacity to laugh? If I am right about that, do all telekineticanarchists have the same problem? Or is it necrotransistorcapitalists? It's something like that.

Luis,Scott
In case you haven't noticed KOB before, he loves to come out of the woodwork regarding religion and oops, it seems, aborion issues. He does not have a belief in God, which is fine, but he loves to slam those who use anything remotely perceived as christian in their debates. Don't bother with him. He's really a punk who likes to call people down rather than debate. (Oh,and he loves to paraphrase you and say, "prove it!" all the time.)

KOB
What is YOUR definition of abortion?

KOB
My definition of abortion is as follows: The surgical procedure to terminate or "abort" a pregnancy. Or you might call the neighbors old Gremlin parked in his driveway an abortion as well. In either case they are both ugly to look at. That is the reality of the situation.

Let me ask you this. When a woman is pregnant, at which point in her pregnancy would you say she has a baby inside her as opposed to a fetus?

knight_of_baawa
"It's not an aggression toward the fetus, since, as I said, technically the fetus is trespassing."

Technically, the woman has abducted the baby and held it against its will.

Any woman who regards the baby as "trespassing" is not mentally competent to consent to an abortion, since her failure to grasp the causes of pregnancy shows a lack of judgement such that she would not understand the risks she would undergo.

Refuting KoB's arguments
I will now use KoB's method to refute all of his arguments:

[cut & paste everything KoB has said here]

My refutation: False!
There, I've refuted his arguments by his own method of refuting everyone else's arguments.

why is abortion legal? 1
Some will say because of Roe and ignorant judges. Others might say because Gov Reagen signed the first liberal abortion law making it in on demand in 1967 starting the ball rolling.

They are all proximate answers that do not explain anything. So I will make a deeper analysis and feel free to evaluate my analysis.

One can pick certain guideposts. I will start with Magna Charta which established that the King no longer had absolute authority over his subjects. A beginning of the concept of liberty of the individual. Then we have the Galileo incident which although the tryanny of the church won in the short run, it lost in the long run. Again, the victory of individual thought and liberty over the tyranny of God and its agents. Then we have the Enlightment which again enthroned individual liberty at the expense of revealed truth by religion

Then we have Luther and Calvin rejecting authority; they planted the seeds for our modern day emphasis on the individual. So now one read the bible on one's own to determine its meaning.

And long came Adam Smith which limited govt interference in the commercial dealings with individuals. This coincided with John Locke and further emphasis on individual liberty and restrains on govt interference with it.

All this ended up with industrial revolution which created cities. Cities had all sorts of people and led to tolerance of different view points. This enhanced liberty against any doctrinal authority. The industrial rev. culminated in the emancipation of women. Women since the dawn of civilization were baby machines; totally a slave of their biology. Women could not vote; legal to use physical punishment within limits on your wife.

T

why is abortion legal? 2
he emancipation of women, the result of a long history, meant the end of women being slaves to their biology. They could now use their brain to achieve as had men.

It is for these reasons that birth control became a topic of interests to scientists. It is for this reason that abortion now legal in almost every civilized country that evolved from the Western Tradition. In the few countries, such as Ireland and Poland, where the roman church wields power unheard of anywhere else in the West, abortion illegal or difficult, they take the boat to England.

And so all the discussions on this thread are the kinds of discussions and wars people had way back about the true religion. Everyone gets heated up and holier than thou. It is like the luddites who were threatened by technology. It is those when they saw the Ford cars complained that we should retain the horse and buggy.

Legal abortion is the result of natural evolutionary process. The emancipation of women from their biology. In fact, men are even emancipated by Viagra.

The anti-choicers, sincere as they are, are the modern day luddites. Time will pass you by while you are still cursing the evil of the pro-choicers, who by the way are not gung ho and roping people into abortion by law as did Hitler for undesirables.

There is as much chance of making abortion illegal as there is of the Catholic Church trying another Galieleo for heresy. It is over. Live with it and keep to a moral issue. After all, life is sacred and should not be treated lightly at all stages, but that is not a matter of law anymore until birth.


why is abortion legal? 3
__________________
Some stupid anti-choice argument:

Death penalty is okay even tho a human being, because ....

So:
Abortion is okay even tho life, because ....

So why is "because" okay in one case, and not another. Different points of view. Not written in the stars. Surely not okay for RC in death penalty, but for others okay. What is true answer. There is not any. What privacy protects is not so much the woman's body, but the privacy of conscience on the sacredness of "life" at various stages. Reasonable people have different view points. Similar to religion. What privacy protects, as with religious beliefs, is the privacy of conscience in what boils down to is a moral judgement. At birth, 99% of us have the same moral judgement on the sacredness of life and hence protect with law. Prior to that, there is no consensus on the morality of it. Not very complicated unless like the Roman Church you do not respect individual conscience. Sophisticated catholics know better so do not harangue me for being anti -catholic. Father Drinan is an example of a sophisticated catholic as is Hans Kung and others. They are the future. I admire them and they took their faith seriously; they were not to bowed as was Galileo, a much better person than Pope Urban who gave him the shaft. Anti-stupidity and anti-tyranical, yes.


luis
Take a methoology course before you post again. You state that the fact, i assume for this post a fact, that CA and NY have BC easily available and higher abortion rate than Nebreska which does not have easily availabiity of BC but low abortion rates

proves PP wrong that BC lowers abortion rate.

What you forgot is that everything else being equal. So, if we have mental retards in CA, no surprise.

You have different cultural attitudes in CA and Nebreska.

PP did not spell out, but what should be said:

Given everything else equal, easily availibiltiy of BC reduces abortion rate.

Given that everyone uses seatbelts, then seatbelts reduce deaths from car accidents. Leave out the first phrase, you might not find it true.

You have just recieved a free course in how to think well.

luis
In poland where abortion legal if in bad financial state, you have an abortion rate, legal and illegal, as high as the birth rate;
Birth control not easily available in poland and very expensive since govt and insurance in poland dose not cover BC

IN Western Europe, you have the lowest abortion rate in the world, and the most available BC covered by govt or insurance.