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Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Belgium: Europe's Canary in a Coal Mine
by Jonah Goldberg
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You probably don't realize it, but we are living in an unprecedented historical moment. For the first time, Belgium has managed to be interesting without getting invaded by Germany or abusing an African colony.

What's so interesting? In short: Belgium is coming apart at the seams. For four months, its 11 political parties have been unable to form a national government because the Dutch-speaking regions want greater autonomy, or even outright independence.

Primarily split between Dutch-speaking Flemings and French-speaking Walloons, Belgium was formed as a constitutional monarchy where the non-French speakers were mostly treated as second-class citizens. Even today, 177 years later, there are no national figures or national political parties. Each party represents its own ethnic, linguistic or regional enclave. But, although the Flemish majority is somewhat more prosperous, the Walloons have a perceived stranglehold on Belgian politics. One is tempted to joke that it's an Iraq with better weather and waffles.

But it isn't a mini-Iraq, and not just because they're not killing one another. It's more like a mini-European Union. In fact, that's the one thing everyone can agree on.

No country is more invested in the EU experiment than Belgium, whose capital, Brussels, is also the capital of the EU. If Belgium falls to sectarianism, what does that say about prospects for making Europe into a super-Belgium?

Belgium is a "laboratory," says Joelle Milquet, the leader of the French-speaking Humanist Democratic Center party and a defender of both a united Belgium and EU. "If 10 million people in a developed country do not manage to build a collective project," she told Britain's Telegraph newspaper, "that would signal the bankruptcy of what one tries to build at the European and even international level."

Paul Belien, a Flemish writer who favors an independent Flanders, agrees. "For me, the Belgian and EU flags are basically the same," he told the Telegraph. "They are a denial of identity."

But here's the hilarious irony of all this: The European Union is in effect subsidizing nationalism in Belgium and across the Continent. As the EU assumes more of the responsibilities of states - regulations, the economy, currency, possibly even defense - the cost of independence becomes lower.

Look at Scotland. The Scots are moving, perhaps inexorably, toward national independence from Britain. A referendum on breaking away could take place as early as 2010 and would likely pass. And why not? Scotland didn't formally become part of Britain until 1707, when it caved in to English threats to its trade and the free movement of people across the border. Now, thanks to the EU, such threats are illegal. And it's hardly likely that England would declare war on secessionist Scotland.

A similar process is under way in Kosovo, which wants to break from Serbia (the U.S. backs that idea) and get EU candidacy like Croatia and Macedonia. The Basques in Spain aren't far behind. In the past, ethnic enclaves probably couldn't make it on their own. But now the EU provides a safety net.

The catch-22 is delightful. By scaling back the job description of a nation-state to a few ceremonial duties, ethnic minorities see fewer risks and a lot more rewards in breaking away. Countries such as Slovakia get to trade on their votes in the EU and the U.N. They get their own anthems and sports teams and get to teach their own language and culture. It's like a McDonald's franchise. You man the register and keep the bathrooms clean, but the folks at corporate HQ do the heavy lifting. That's why the Basques, Scots and Flemings are looking to open their own franchises. The question is whether the nationalist hunger of such McNations can be satisfied by just the symbolism of autonomy.

This points to why I take so much pleasure in the troubles in Brussels. The EU always made the most sense to Belgians, who have a weak national identity. The myth was that everyone felt the same way.

Indeed, the EU project has always been predicated on self-serving myths. Another is the idea that with greater "understanding" comes greater peace and comity. The Walloons and the Flemings understand each other; they just don't like each other very much.

But what I really like about the Belgian crisis is that it puts a dent in the myth that Europe represents some enlightened new model exportable to the rest of the globe. After World War II and the Holocaust, a generation of diplomats and intellectuals predicted that nationality, religion and culture would matter less in the New Europe. But wishing didn't make it so. Obviously, nobody wants the bloody nationalism of early 20th century Europe. But it's nonetheless gratifying that even on the EU's Brussels campus, life resists the blueprints of the bureaucrats.

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Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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second to Laisve
"I meant that the EU policies are destroying what was admirable about the European quest"

I'm not so well informed on matters in the EU as to be able to comment on this too deeply. However, it seems to me that the policies of the EU are tending this way. And there is something else, as well.

I find it ironic that, at the very time that many in the U.S. are encouraging people to regard themselves, not primarily as Americans, but rather as distinct and competing (all too often mutually hostile) ethnic groups, to the detriment of our national unity...
...the EU is busily *demolishing* many of the sources of desirable diversity in Europe, apparently working to create a bland, homogenous whole.

Can't *anyone* seem to be able to recognize a reasonable compromise?

To Laisve
"Not doing too well in the U.S. lately"

Well, I can't change your opinion on this, obviously. However, I'd have to say the limiting of American freedoms is vastly overstated.
No one is being arrested solely for protesting the war (although, as has always been the case, protestors WILL be arrested for violating other laws in the course of their protest). We haven't suspended habeus corpus. We aren't attempting to censor cell phones and text messaging (as in Iran). We don't single out items of Muslim apparel for banning. We don't shut down news offices, bloggers etc for daring to speak up. We still allow women to drive cars (see also certain Mideast nations). We don't forbid members of certain ethnic groups to become citizens. We're not even cracking down particularly on illegal immigrants. We don't have military checkpoints set up on our own roads and highways.
Etc. etc. etc.

Where are the thousands of Americans being harassed or arrested due to wiretaps? We're even giving hostile combatants and detained terrorists recourse to our own court system.

Now, it is true that Nanny Government is taking away as many of our choices as possible 'for our own good'. For instance, quite a few people are losing the right to smoke in their own homes:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/Column2.aspx?UrlTitle=an ti-tobacco_crusaders_boldly_go_into_smokers_homes&ns=JacobS ullum&dt=10/10/2007&page=full&comments=true&submitted=truea 0446440-dc46-4678-936e-8269a86aeb12

But the true threat to our freedom is the tendency to limit the choices of Americans, as with children, for 'our own good'; not as a result of security initiatives.

To Tallil2long
Thanks for refining my point. I meant that the EU policies are destroying what was admirable about the European quest. The connected values of freedom, responsibility and merit are, of course, also pursued in a few places elsewhere. Not doing too well in the U.S. lately. Unfortunately, most of the world, couldn't care less. Control is in; freedom is out.

To SWMichiganBill
Yesterday was a weird day for me all around. You should see some of my posts on the Rush Limbaugh, Vindicated board.

jerabaub................
..........gets it.

""All the goody, goody going around today about all being brothers, while nice, is just not going to happen in this century.

Man is a devise and a divisive creature just as much as a party person. After the party, he doesn't want to take the entire crowd home with him. Make your speeches and fall into the hands of tyranny. Better separate than in the hands of an all knowing all controlling centralized monster.""

Thats the point of secession. We may soon be in an association which later becomes unbearable. Ie., the NAU or whatever bird brained idea the political elites at the behest of money power centers decide to sell us.

Don't just look back at what has happened and say, well, that couldn't happen now. realize there is a great big future out there that we can hardly if at all imagine. Secession may not sound like such a dirty word under those future conditions. "Better alone than married to h&ll itself."

The monster NEVER sleeps. He is always just a cats breath away.


belgium
it sounds as though belgium is merely doing what those in the un would like where there are no national boundaries but rather one large world that would rely on the un to run an overiding world govt

Texas is not the state of
but the Republic of Texas.

Actually, very briefly Mexico itself was ours, viture of the Mex-Am. war, but DC thought it was too much to annex.

LONE STAR STATE

.....Texas is the only State that was once an independent Nation and I believe when they joined the Union they put in an escape clause in their State Constitution ...

.....I don't see Texans clamoring for independence any time soon however ...

.....Having said that ....without a common Ethnocultural base to hold us together as a Nation I see a Totalitarian Government in our future ...Big Brother will be watching us ...or if Hillary takes over ...Big Mama .....COLOSSUS

Speaking of the NAU
Did anyone catch Vincente Foxx on CNN's Larry King where he admitted there were plans to integrate our currencies into the Amero? Or O'Reilly where he called MinuteMen xenophobes. I didn't watch the King show, never watch anything on CNN but did try to watch O'Reilly.
Had to quit, my b.p. was going through the roof with the smarmy lies of this jerk.
I never thought I couldn't wait to grow a year older, but I can't wait til the election and Bush is GONE! I voted twice for him but I can't stand the sight of him now, won't listen to him and don't believe a word he says anymore, he of
all gods are the same stripe as he says God Bless America.

rjschwarz
Catholic to boot..What the hell does that mean?

political elites & academics are pouting
The political elites have a vision to subvert the nation-state into a transnational conglomerate.

We see this of course in the European Union. Even traditional currencies of nations are being replaced by the euro.

In our hemisphere, it is the same phenomenon, although not as far advanced. Political elites in the U.S. are striving to create a free trade zone extending from Mexico thru Canada. And this is only the beginning. Eventually, the elites envision a total merging of Mexico, U.S., and Canada. This obviously undermines the concept of national sovereignty and national identity.

I find it amusing that political elites in both Europe and the United States so fundamentally misunderstand their constituencies.

From Iraq to Brussels to Scotland, the appeal of tribe, race, national identity, ethnicity, religious identity, is surging, not receding.


I am so sad. Please prove me wrong.
I lived in Europe and North Africa for most of my adult life. I love Europe and it's people's immensely. I visit it yearly. Cairo is a dream world where everyone lived in harmony and viewed the pyramids. Now in both areas the disease of islam has taken root and infects everyone it can. The sadness someone must feel to worship a pedophile and hide the shame or lie about it. The sickness they must feel when told of their glorious history of murdering a man in front of his family then raping his wife while the children watch. PLEASE. islam is a sickness of the soul. Satan dances everywhere muslims group and plan. Walk away and come to God's loving hands. I will help as I can.

Who are you calling haole?
Haole
1. foreign or foreigner
2. Caucasian, white
3. no breath (from the way foreigners -- mostly White missionaries -- rubbed noses, the Hawaiian form of greeting or kissing).

Not being one of the anointed, I was taught Hawaii by Mrs. Wong (2nd grade) and Mrs. Abernathy (3rd grade) ... all pre-statehood which is probably part of the problem. The other spelling is being imposed on us by multi-culturalists, tribalists, and the PC police.

P.S.: Michael Vick doesn't have a dog in this fight either. Just thought you'd like to know.

Me no Haole
I never been to Hawai'i but do have one relative buried there and know how to correctly write it.

I meant that Hawai'i could survive as an independent state (as it was before 1898) while I support any state's (or any other territory)right to independence I really don't have a dog in this fight and most people there support the Union. I assume even the non-haole support it being part of the Union.

I agree that talk of secession in the US is pointless since there is no support for it anyplace.

And AZG, they have talked about that in Nevada too (Las Vegas metro and everyplace else).

And in Taiwan, there is a split between north and south too, with those in the south being more pro-DPP than those in the north who support the KMT and PFP and those in the south much more likely to speak Taiwanese and those in the north speaking Mandarin. Not heard anything about the two breaking into two parts..more concern at this point over its relations with China.


What about here at home?
What happens when (hypothetically) enough illegals who have no desire to assymilate into American culture decide to get together and vote (after they get amnesty) to secede Arizona, Nuevo Mexico, Nevada, Texas and California Sur from the US, or, worse, want to stay in, but want "Greater Autonomy?" (Read: all the benefits of living under our roof, but none of the costs.) I doubt secession would ever actually make it through Congress, but it seems foolish to think that we would be immune to the issues that Belgium and Canada deal with now, especially with the Left's emphasis on "Multiculturalism" (Read: supporting anything not American at any cost.)

Banks
Been a long time since I've seen the word "codswallop." Used it in a letter to the editor responding to an op-ed piece in our local newspaper about collateral damage in the first Iraq war (1991). Found it in my handy-dandy thesaurus.

Re: Quebec, I'm surprised, with all this talk about secession, no one has mentioned Canada.

Tallil2long
Thanks, I thought it was an unusual post for you! I must not have been awake enough to recognize the tongue-in-cheekedness (is that a word?)of the post.

Akagi, Onceamarine, et al....
All this talk about secession is a useless mental exercise.

Akagi...
From the way you wrote Hawaii, I assume you are from Hawaii. So am I. You wrote "Hawai'i could be independent...". Are you serious? As soon as the native Hawaiians take back their islands they're going to kick you, me, and all our relatives outta there! Are you ready to go back to Japan?

Actually I don't live in Hawaii anymore. Live in California where we've debated for YEARS dividing the state north / south.

EU counts on Belgian breakup
The creators of the European Union expected that the time would come when the states that made up the EU would dissolve and their constituent regional districts, be they Laender, departments, or whatever else the local tongue may call them, would form the basic organizational and managing units of the union. So, Germany as a state would cease to exist, going off into the union, and her adminstrative units, her Laender such as Bavaria, North Rhein-Westfalia, etc, would be the basic units of the EU. Those units would form the basic units for the European Parliament.

So, if Belgium does split, it fits the EU's construct of what Europe should look like.

For me, Belgium never should have been formed in the first place. Flanders should have been joined to the Netherlands, and Wallonia to France. But in the post-Napoleonic climate, that didn't sit well with the other European powers.

Let it be a reminder to us that if you want to tinker with nationalities, be ready for trouble, because it usually ensues.

Hillary delenda est.

Todays Battle
One of the first battles in retaining or losing the United States is being fought in the Supreme Court today. If the Supreme Court bows to the world court or whatever it is and allows the convicted murder to be set free and given back to mexico it is game over. Congress and this president (that I voted for twice) will have effectively killed America. But they will be politically correct.....like that is something to be proud of. I say Jim Broussard of Reno Nevada for Sec of Defense!!!!

The Basques
I live in Spain, and although there is a Basque nationalist movement, it's hard for me to imagine the Basque country becoming independent. I don't think that most Basques would support that. From what I can see, most Basques see themselves as Spanish first and Basque second. Heck, most of them don't even speak Basque, and the vast majority are truly disgusted with ETA and their terrorist tactics. It seems more likely that Catalans might support independence from Spain--already it's often not easy to live in Catalonia if you don't speak Catalan, and there is a good economic infrastructure there.

With the euro the EU achieved what to many seemed almost unthinkable--a strong, stable European currency. This along with a strong desire to maintain peace at almost any cost is what seems to hold together this union of nations, but those things have nothing to do with a common European heritage or a sense of Europeanness. In the U.S., despite regional differences, rivalries and pride, most Americans feel American first. I don't see that happening here in Europe. At the same time, many parts of Europe are prospering as never before, and I also don't see Europeans letting go of the "union" that has brought them that prosperity, whether or not they feel a true affinity with other Europeans.

Secession
Onceamarine:

I 100% agree with you on secession. I think the states in 1860-1861 had the right to leave the Union and that it was a misuse of power to try to keep them inside. I might add that Lincoln is China's favorite US President because if you ever bring up Taiwan or Tibet, it won't take long before they mention his name to justify their own misuse of power.

While you can never rule anything out, I just don't see any state leaving the Union. Even when the Federal government abuses them (see the Sagebrush Revolution of the 1980s), states just get too much goodies from the central government to want to leave. Even territories taken by naked aggression don't want to leave because they get too many goodies. Less than one in ten Puerto Ricans support it becoming independent.

Most states could never make it on their own and I'd be hard pressed to think of an issue that would force enough out so that would be economically viable. Texas and California and Hawai'i could be independent on their own as could states like New York, but they do better as part of the Union and while some will favor independence over economics (East Timor for example), there isn't really a Californian national identity or a pressing issue to force them out. Not saying it could never happen, but nothing I can imagine outside of California becoming majority Hispanic and wanting to rejoin Mexico.

A simple plan
Were I a Muslim activist, I would try to get my own small country in Europe. Perhaps Marseilles, since it is already one big ZUS. Then, get it to be ruled by Islamic law. But don't stay there. Move out to other local areas. Have them petition to join my new nation and leave their old.

In 10-20 years, I could have it all.

Wolfgang
Small point: balkanization not the same as secession.

But I agree with you. Industrialization, economies of scale, access to resources help to determine a nation's strength and vitality. We could not have stopped the Germans and the Japanese had the USA been a bunch of bickering principalities. It was our COLLECTIVE industrial might, and some imported German-Jewish know-how, that defeated them.

The European Union itself is a response to American economic domination of world markets.

Onceamarine should read more history. Saying that slavery was not a reason for the US Civil War is uninformed. Slavery being an integral part of the Southern economy does make it ONE of several reasons why the war was fought. Look at Dred Scott Decision, Missouri Compromise, the tariff, and many others....beginning as early as 1820....

Akagi - Wolfgang
Seen from today's perspective, the south would probably not secede although time has a way of raising new perspectives. Simply put, any people do/should have the right to secede. That includes a black majority in Mississippi for example. Would they.??. No, but they should be able to. 2007 is not 1861. 2007 is not 2020. Talking about what should be and what will be, are often simple counter arguments.

I tend to agree with Wolfgang about Belgium in particular. The dutch would almost without doubt link up with the Netherlands, and the Flemish would not want to, but might have to link with the French or resort to being a small principality. All the goody, goody going around today about all being brothers, while nice, is just not going to happen in this century.

Man is a devise creature just as much as a party person. After the party, he doesn't want to take the entire crowd home with him. Make your speeches and fall into the hands of tyranny. Better separate than in the hands of an all knowing all controlling centralized monster.


Eurabia
"After World War II and the Holocaust, a generation of diplomats and intellectuals predicted that nationality, religion and culture would matter less in the New Europe."

And the Eurocrats seem Hell bent on proving this by importing massive numbers of Muslims into their midst. The Muslims, however, have no such silly notions and are patiently biding their time until their numbers increase the point where Europe as Europe is unrecoverable and starts to transform into Eurabia. There is little doubt this will happen but a lot of denial.

Balkanization Won't Always Happen
Interesting article - but it overlooks some unpleasant facts.

Scotland will not opt for independence for one simple reason - economic viability. what would be the foundation stone of the Scots economy? Shipbuilding? The yards are long dismantled. Heavy industry? Ditto. High tech? Isn't most of that found down in England? Oil industries? The North Sea oil fields are running out ever more increasingly. The fanatics will posture for independence but cooler heads will ultimately prevail - Scotland gets too many monetary transfers from the Sassanach to leave the Union.

As for Belgium, here's another artificial construct that is reaching the end of its usefulness. What is "Belgium" used to be known as the Austrian Netherlands for several centuries - it was part of the Hapsburg holdings. Before that, it was ruled by Spain - and before that it was a hodgepodge of smaller principalities (remember the Duchy of Brabant?). Let Belgium deconstruct - the same way Czechoslovakia did in 1992. The Dutch-speaking part just might opt to become part of the Netherlands - not a bad idea. The Flemings might decide to become part of France - or they'll realise the dream of a man vilified in his own lifetime who just might be having the proverbial last laugh from the depths of Hell - Leon DeGrelle.

Government power
When our Founding Fathers set up this nation it
was to let Feds take care of limited things like
Defense,International concerns etc. Now they took
almost all power that was reserved to the individual States. What follows is Chaos and
corruption. Power begats the loss of fredom.

United we Stand
Unite we Stand, and Diversity we Fall

Like the rest of us...
really need ultra-leftist Vermont.


Secession
The one in the South is called the League of the South (the name coming from a similar organization that wants independence for northern Italy called the Northern League).

The numbers are small and it pushes a pro-life, pro-Christian agenda. It has basically infiltrated many of the "camps" of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and unlike many in the SCV, I suspect the the LOS is a racist organization and has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Support for secession in the US south would be so small as to be unmeasurable just as I am sure is the case in Vermont--a few nuts doesn't make a movement.

Puerto Rican support is less than 10% for independence and Guam even less.

Now if not for threats, Taiwan would drop the myth that Taiwan is part of China, but China continues to promise to invade if that happens and Taiwan's good friend (sarcasm intended)the US threatens Taiwan over the independence issue almost as often as China does.

Tibet of course would favor indepedence and perhaps Xinjiang. Kashmir from India, Aceh from Indonesia and the list goes on.

Problem is that in many places independence is not an option because the parent country (like the US in 1861) will act violently to make sure "its" territory stays put--inside the confines of the nation.

Vote Vlaams Blok!
Filip Dewinter and Frank Vanhecke are true patriots of Flanders. I saw them live several months ago in Crystal City, giving speeches. Their party, Vlaams Belang , actually used to be called "Vlaams Blok" until late 2004, when a Walloon court criminalized the party as "hate speech" (Sound familiar?).

Thus, I say to all Flemish patriots: Vote Vlaams Blok!

onceamarine
great comments.

to SWMichiganBill
I was being tongue-in-cheek about Europe's mysterious reluctance to adopt Sharia.

Loco
Vermont isn't alone.

http://www.freestateproject.org/org/mission


2000 plus continued

Spouses killing each other. You took the keys to my car. Well, you took the keys to the house. Well, you emptied the bank account. Yes, that war was totally stupid. Secession was/is the answer. Things will settle themselves later. The south would have done away with slavery before the end of the century as though that was or could have been the reason for the war. Besides, did the north need the south or did the south need the north, NO.

Follow the money. The north imposed a 47% import/export tax on the south. It's life blood. And Lincoln had ALREADY DECLARED THAT HE WOULD NEVER FIGHT THE SOUTH OVER SLAVERY, BUT THAT HE WOULD OVER TAXES. Well the south lived on import/export. What was it to do.

Requirement: Sell all you produce to the northern money people and we will decide what to do with what you produced, or you can fight us. Now who started the WAR.

Secession should be embraced as an alternative to killing each other.


Separating, loco..Not so loco..

I believe with every fibre in my body and soul that separation, or as correctly known, secession, is perfectly legit and to be expected and occasionally applauded. It is nothing more than a declaration of divorce except that multiple families are involved. I can't live with you and you can't live with me.

It is the natural progression of things. It is also the threat which often then makes for accommodation. It is a legal and civilized way to avoid bloodshed. Wives or husbands who can't resort to divorce will often kill their spouse. Countries and pieces of countries do the same.

The so called civil war, or war between the states or war of secession or war of independence of the south, was a war of shame. The bloodiest war in American History was a simple attempt to keep people in a "family" when they had already declared their "divorce".

No matter what you think about slavery, which was not the reason either the north or the south fought the war, but was only and after thought of a weary president who knew he had practically destroyed a nation, the war was stupid. the south should not have fired on fort Sumter, and the north should not have opened fire on the south.


loco
We're not exempt, true. We enable Balkanization of our country through multi-culturalism. Go to a school today and talk about common culture and assimilation and you will be called a bigot and a Nazi. Right now, secession is the least of our worries.

Muslim Autonomy
already exists to a certain level in France.

They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count.

They are conveniently listed on one long webpage, http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htmComplete with street demarcations and map delineations.

What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.

Comment: A more precise name for these zones would be Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule. (November 14, 2006) http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/709

So what happens when...
Bavaria (the economic engine of Germany, and Catholic to boot) and Tuscany (the economic engine of Italy) decide to become independent. German/Italian clout in the EU would dump quickly. I suspect the dissoluton of Belgium will cause a number of nations to realize that is the end game and to adjust their EU plans.

We are not exempt here in the States
A group in Vermont together with a group in the South have gotten together to explore the notion of seperating from the rest of us.

Huh?
I agree with Jesse. It is nice to see discussion which does not disintegrate into us vs. them.

I have one comment on something Tallil2long wrote:
"Based on my experience, there is a *fairly* widespread consideration among Muslims that Muslims should live under Islamic law, which European nations seem astonishingly reluctant to adopt."

I can understand why European countries would be reluctant to adopt Muslim law since it is so foreign to what they have lived under in the past so and would completely obliterate what little national identity they still have. Did you state that correctly?


I won't be here but
it might be very interesting to read the history of this period in 100 years or so.

That is if ANYone is here.

Ironically
It could actually turn out to be a good thing if Belgium is partitioned--as it could lead to the EU being partitioned back to component nation-states.

Tallil2long and Countryman
Just wanted to give you two a thanks for starting up a reasoned, interesting, civil discussion.

May the thread continue thusly.

To Countryman
"I may be wrong, but I would suspect that Moslems in Europe would not attempt the secession of Moslem-dominant areas, as that would exacerbate the tension, creating a physical target for other European nations."


Neighbor, I do believe you are wrong. Based on my experience, there is a *fairly* widespread consideration among Muslims that Muslims should live under Islamic law, which European nations seem astonishingly reluctant to adopt. Further, Muslims should by now be very well aware that Europe does not attack or refuse to do business with Islamic polities.
There is thus no effective downside, and there would be a spiritual benefit in the eyes of many.

Seeking regional autonomy would not hinder any 'fifth column' infiltration strategy (assuming that such a largescale plot exists) since each region that attains a Muslim majority could simply demand to join an existing Islamic polity or to form a new one of their its own.

Please make no mistake: I do not claim that all, or even a majority, of Muslims expect to live under a government-mandated Sharia law system. But I have spoken to quite a few who either consider that the 'natural state' of Muslims, or who find the notion attractive enough to be expected to support such a thing if proposed.

Tallil2long
You raise an interesting point vis a vis the Moslems in Europe that wasn't addressed by Mr. Goldberg. Belgium has its own Moslem problem, but apparently not in the Flemish/Walloon controversy.

I may be wrong, but I would suspect that Moslems in Europe would not attempt the secession of Moslem-dominant areas, as that would exacerbate the tension, creating a physical target for other European nations.

I believe that if the Moslems have any concerted strategy in Europe at all, it is to do a fifth column infiltration (much like Marxist liberals opted for since the 1960s here in America), and gradually introduce Sharia law through existing channels. At some point in time then, the EU will become a de facto Moslem state.

http://www.countrymanscorner.blogspot.com

To Laisve
Ummm. Your statement is only *necessarily* correct if the EU were the originator or sole example of 'Western ideas of freedom, responsibility and advancement by merit'.

I submit that even nations who have the audacity not to join the EU may still practice those ideals.

The Wish to Share Failure
What is it about human nature that makes those unsuccessful in some endeavor seek to force others to use their failed methods?

Thanks, Belgium, for your contribution to the destruction of what's left of Western outmoded ideas of freedom, responsibility, and advancement by merit.

Laisve

Balkanization...
... all over Europe? Interesting. Wonder how long it'll be before the Muslim majorities in some localities of England and France pick up on the idea?
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