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Wednesday, August 01, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Too Uninformed to Vote?
by Jonah Goldberg
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Can you name all three branches of government? Can you name even one? Do you know who your congressman is? Your senators? Do you even know how many senators each state gets? If you know the answers to these questions (and you probably do because you're a newspaper reader), you're in the minority.

A very high percentage of the U.S. electorate isn't very well qualified to vote, if by "qualified" you mean having a basic understanding of our government, its functions and its challenges. Almost half of the American public doesn't know that each state gets two senators. More than two-thirds can't explain the gist of what the Food and Drug Administration does.

Now, the point isn't to say that the American people are stupid, which is the typical knee-jerk reaction of self-absorbed political junkies. Rather, it's that millions of Americans just don't care about politics, much the same way that I don't care about cricket: They think it's boring. Ask me how cricket works and I'm likely to respond with the same blank, uncomprehending stare my old basset hound used to give me when I asked him to chase a Frisbee. Ask the typical American to explain, say, what a cloture vote is, and you'll get the same.

And yet, to suggest that maybe some people just shouldn't vote is considered the height of un-Americanism. As economist Bryan Caplan notes in his bracing new book, "The Myth of the Rational Voter," there are few subjects on which Americans are more dogmatic and ideological.

Consider the hoary cliche attributed to Democratic New York Gov. Al Smith in 1928: "All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy." As Caplan notes, this means that no evidence of any nature can ever, under any circumstances, be held against democracy: "A person who said, 'All the ills of the markets can be cured by more markets' would be lampooned as the worst sort of market fundamentalist. Why the double standard?"

One response is that democracy is at the core of our secular faith. But surely even democracy voluptuaries can appreciate that faith-based ideologies can be taken too far. We do not let children vote, yet no serious person would argue that our democratic values are significantly undermined because we bar 10-year-olds from the voting booth.

Voter-turnout fanatics concerned with more than mere aggrandizement for the Democratic Party argue that voting is a sign of civic health. But doesn't it matter why you vote?

Last summer, an Arizona activist went so far as to propose that every voter be enrolled in a state lottery, on the assumption that what our political system really lacks is more voters who need to be bribed with lottery tickets.

Some more serious people suggest that voting should be mandatory, believing that if the "disenfranchised" - often code for dream Democratic voters - cast ballots, the country would move profoundly to the left. John Kenneth Galbraith proclaimed in 1986: "If everybody in this country voted, the Democrats would be in for the next 100 years."

This last bit is almost certainly false. The evidence is that if every eligible voter voted, national elections would probably remain unchanged. "Simply put," political scientists Benjamin Highton and Raymond Wolfinger wrote in a 2001 article, "The Political Implications of Higher Turnout," U.S. "voters' preferences differ minimally from those of all citizens; outcomes would not change if everyone voted."

So, maybe, just maybe, we have our priorities wrong. Perhaps cheapening the vote by requiring little more than an active pulse (Chicago famously waives this rule) has turned it into something many people don't value. Maybe the emphasis on getting more people to vote has dumbed down our democracy by pushing participation onto people uninterested in such things. Maybe our society would be healthier if politicians aimed higher than the lowest common denominator. Maybe the people who don't know the first thing about how our system works aren't the folks who should be driving our politics, just as people who don't know how to drive shouldn't have a driver's license.

Instead of making it easier to vote, maybe we should be making it harder. Why not test people on the basic functions of government? Immigrants have to pass a test to vote; why not all citizens?

A voting test would point the arrow of civic engagement up instead of down, sending the signal that becoming an informed citizen is a valued accomplishment. And if that's not a good enough reason, maybe this is: If you threaten to take the vote away from the certifiably uninformed, voter turnout will almost certainly get a boost.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Yikes!
"Almost half of the American public doesn't know that each state gets two senators."

That's frightening.

The liberal answer to the question is: As many as the Supreme Court says they should have.

Most people who SHOULDN'T VOTE
Seem somehow not to MAKE it to the polls.

Example
About four hours ago I responded to a townhall post on another thread. The poster said, "Felons are liberals, or at least that's the way they vote." I suggested to the poster that he consult pFlag to learn that most states do not allow felons to vote at all, and that, in the cases where felons are allowed to vote, there is no way anyone could survey how they vote since in the United States the vote is secret.


Dummies at the polls
This is why I'm not bothered by someone complaining that they couldn't figure out the ballot and/or voting machine. If someone can't remember their address or how they got to the polling place, then voting is the least of their problems.

Yup! A Test For Voters!
AND.... A poll tax of say, $25. That way only committed citizens and well organized fraudulent voters show up. The brain dead won't help screw the country up and the self-absorbed ME types won't want to waste their time and also have to pay for it. In there mind, everything should be free for them and not cause their brain to hurt.

Not vote
First let us remember this is not I repeat not a democracy. we live in a representative Republic, true democracy leads to anachy, like we are approaching now. Do you realize that for the first 34 years, for all practical purposes there was no popular vote. The president was elected by the "Electoral College. The electors were simply appointed by state legislators. The constitution also required the state legislators to select their senators. 1834 was the first year that there was a sufficient number of voters voting to make the popular vote worth noting ( 356,035) out of an estimated population of apx 25 to 30 million. Our founding fathers believed that those who governed us would also pledge, Our Lives, Our liberties and their fortunes.

Unfortunately our current system reminds me of when I raised a few Hogs, they would rush to the feeding troth and push each other out of the way just to satisfy their own hunger for food. The electorate does the same, every special interest group only cares about its own interest.. Republicans need to elect a republican majority, no matter what the candidates stance is on any political as this was sorted out in the primaries., same with the democrats, Environmentalists only care about the environment, no concern how much damage their stance takes on the economy. Ethnic groups care only about their own interests etc.

Better there was, as suggested, a test for voters. Problem is how many languages should it be printed in How do we make it so that various socially deprived citizens would be able to understand it.



macthemadman
That would require repeal of the twenty-fourth amendment, of course. Personally, I sort of like the idea of limiting the vote to net taxpayers and their dependents, provided both are of legal voting age, which would also violate said amendment.

NevilleShute proposed an interesting
solution whereby every citizen starts with one vote at the age of majority and then could earn credits by various means i.e. military service, college education, world travel, and simply getting older and presumably more well informed untilif all credits were earned the citizen could have 7 votes.Maybe those who know more should have more say??

I agree with some of this
column but disagree with most of it. First off, I don't believe any study or survey without seeing the actual questions and the data. Too many surveys are out to get the point of view sought by the author. Second, even if the survey had been conducted in a scientific manner it still doesn't mean anything. I can answer ALL of those questions but as far as voting goes I have to divine what the true feelings of my representatives are by the entrails of chickens. For the past 50 years we have not been able to get a politician to give a straight answer to ANY question about their beliefs on an issue.

Look at Lindsey Graham, he ran as a Southern Conservative Republican. He has behaved like a North Eastern Liberal in his chase for John McCain's posterior. Every election we go through a long drawn out process of trying to review a candidate’s voting record to infer how they will stand on issues. Even if you can get their record it is not always a true test because of the sleazy backroom deals they make and call it “compromise”. There is a reason congress has a rating lower than whale stuff.

Citizen Responsibility
I believe we owe the debt to the millions of patriots who've given their very lives for our freedom, to vote with an informed decision. And to not do so is an insult to their sacrifice. Voter test? Absolutely. Possible? Not as long as there is a Democratic Party.

Voting methods
My mother is of the opinion that we should not have elections per se, but that we should enlist a system by lottery. You serve your term, then go home, to be replaced by the next lottery draw. At first I thought that she was crazy to suggest such a thing, but the more I think about it, and see the way things are going in our Capitol, I believe that she may be on to something.

ignorance
A couple of years ago my daughter's friend visited from another state. While she was here, my daughter and I were talking about current events (as we do daily), and this girl asked us to stop. She told us that the news gave her an upset stomach.

This girl - whose parents are an engineer and a teacher - was woefully ignorant, and was determined to stay that way. She was only 16 at that time, too young to vote, but I asked her not even to register until she educated herself.

By the way, this know-nothing North Eastern liberal child did lecture me on the value of diversity.

Ignoring wisdom
Our Founding Fathers, who wrote the two most remarkable governing documents in history, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, stipulated in the Constitution that only landowners would vote in elections.

In these two documents the founders specifically listed "inalienable rights" and made a "Bill of Rights". In none of these compilations is "voting" identified as a "right" of "the people".

The presumed universal "right" to vote has been constructed and derived from something other than the original thinking of these wise men, and incorporated into the Constitution with Amendments, without due regard for the reservations these wise men had about allowing 'the masses' to vote. The founders correctly assessed that the average citizen would not be properly concerned or informed to cast a useful ballot and therefore included numerous provisions in the form of the new government they were designing to insulate elections, laws, and the appointment of public officials from the selfishness, vacuousness, and largely willful ignorance of the general population.

Goldberg's survey is not the first of its kind, and none of them have told us anything new. These surveys have merely confirmed what we knew all along; that voting becomes cheapened and less effective when there are no qualifications for it.

If you want evidence of this all you have to do is ask yourself how a dufus like Ray Nagin could win re-election almost immediately after he completely botched the evacuation of New Orleans prior to Katrina. Ask yourself how Marion Berry could win re-election as the Mayor of our nation's capital after being busted for snorting coke.

These are not the results of elections in which the lion's share of the votes were cast by concerned, informed citizens.

Oldred 5:51 Great Points!
__Liberal theocratic legislation has,over the years,produced a segment of our society ignorant of their responsibility to this Republic.Many now believe to vote is their only responsibility. After they vote their voice is no longer heard,unless specific legislation would deny them personal gains.They vote to secure reps who will ensure personal prosperity, while those campaigning for office sing to lure that electorate.The electorates duty does not begin,or end,at the voting booth.It is continuous in their daily lives,to insure the needs of community,state,and nation,are met. We have allowed,unproven,speculative legislation the ability to undermine our Republics principles.

I'd happily give my two senators
(Specter and Casey) to another state. It'd throw off the whole matrix but since most people really don't care it's no biggie. It's not like these guys really vote like they are told.

Not a test or a poll tax, but
You should only be allowed to vote if you pay income taxes. Someone that does not produce for the government should have no say as to how that money is spent. Wiseone is correct, voting is not a right guaranteed by our constitution. We also need to go back to Senators being appointed as the design was for the congress to represent the "people" and the Senators to represent the states. It is one of the main reasons the Federal government of so out-of-control with regard to all the powers it keeps taking from the states and giving to itself. Government is like a living being with a self preservasion drive to rival anything ever seen. We need to put it on a strict diet and refuse to give it all it wants, only what "we the people" determine that it needs.

Why not?
Voters may not be stupid, but some sure are ignorant. How else do you explain Ted Kennedy's or Chuck Shumer's run in the Senate?

I've often thought the same about voting. We have to pass a test to drive so why not to vote. Of course it wouldn't be practical and would never pass the constitutional smell test, but the discussion does raise an important issue about voters who the politicians are targeting. The reason money is so important to a political campaign is name recognition. That's the only basis for which most voters pull the lever.


lilly...
have you ever heard of exit polls?

Motor Voter
It's bad enough that too many citizens do not know enough to vote intelligently (only selfishly), but the added threat of the Motor Voter legislation means that anyone who is able to secure a driver's license, however fraudulently, will be registered to vote at the same time, if they chose to be registered.

Why do you think that Democrats gear up for election day? They round up the dull and unemployed and bus them to the polls to vote as they direct. In states where people can register to vote on election day (Wisconsin), these same sorts, and college students led by their Leftist professors, spend the day registering and voting. In a state like Wisconsin, sometimes the final count is only a difference of 5000-10,000 votes statewide. That is how the Democrats continue to "win" in a state that is liberal only in the major cities.

I don't think a test..
at the voting booth would every see the light of day. I think everyone( current age limits of course0 should vote. Everyone should get a ballot. The ballot should be blank. Write the name of your candidate on the ballot spelled correctly and the office for which they are running. If a person is not engaged enough to know the person's name and office then they have no business voting. So what if the election takes a little longer to count this is our country and we need to be doing a better job of selecting our representatives.

I also wonder if increasing the age limit would make sense. Would a voter that is actively engaged in the economy be able to make better decisions than a youngster that is still wet behind the ears?

Also, no poll tax but if you are currently receiving public money (welfare) you cannot vote. Democracies fail when the general public figure out that they can vote themselves a pay check from the treasury.

Yooper
Isn't it ironic that the Dems yelled for Motor-Voter and made it a condition for State Highway funds but arre opposed to having a picture ID for voters.

My reform would be to repeal the 24th Amendment and rewrite it to require payment of at least $1000.00 in net federal income taxes (indexed for inflation) to be elligable to vote in federal elections. The military would get an exemption for the requirement during service and up to 3 years afterward.

A BETTER IDEA
On the average, less than 40 percent of the voting population actually vote in national or state elections, and when elections exclusively involve local offices, the turnout rate is abysmal. Chances are if you're not somewhat politically astute, you've already recused yourself from the process.

Instead of focusing on a political intelligence test for voting (which some posters erroneously think will help the GOP), why not concentrate our efforts on something useful, like abolishing the outdated electoral college system?

Education needed not a test.
__What needs to be done is to return our education system to teaching American history. No more of this social studies bologna of the limp wristed liberals.For years our children have been molded by speculative theorist that imagine,by equalizing political views,and possessions,passions will be equalized.If little Johnny,or Jane,do not learn the cause of turbulance,they have no passion to create turbulance.We now have passionate drones voting according to their unwillingness to face turbulance. It is much easier for them to support politicians,and factions,who will solve problems,then for them to make any effort.It is more profitable for them to pay greater taxes, than it is for them to actually stop,and help, someone in need.

sound theory but
File this under the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" catagory. I have no problem with limiting the voters to those who pay attention which is basically what we have now. The problem comes from the deliberately disinformed who can sway the balance.

As it stands, both sides work on and attain about the same amount of votes from various nefarious means so it's about a wash. Other than some reforms, geared more toward mandating transparency than limiting speech and spending, no other remedy is needed.

In the meantime let it be, unimposed self limiting to those who are interested is better than any test imposed by the state, where no doubt if that were the case, the only debate worth having would be who gets to write and administer the test.

Hang-tyme
Congratulations, 100% wrong on all scores. An intelligence or tax test would benefit conservatives at the expense of the socialists. People who have to pay for socialist programs are less likely to vote for them, particularly if these programs can not be shown to be effective. This has a lot to do with being NOT a Democrat. Republicans current;y are about 30 to 50% socialist also, therefore some of the RINO Repubs would also lose.

And the electorial college is NOT outdated for the reasons it was developed. It was developed for an equalization between the big states and little states. If you believe in federalism then the reason for it is still there. If you wish to do away with the electorial college you may as well rewrite the entire constituion and do away with federalism. Of course, the libtards on the Supreme Court have been doing that for 75 years through interpretations anyway. Maybe we can turn that around if another communist doesn't get elected like shrillary.

Electoral college is...
needed more today than ever. Without the electoral college the representation of low population density areas would be dictated by high population density. In general small town america and rural america have been described as being higher in morals and more inclined to be conservative. Without electoral college the presidency would be owned by liberals. Do you want POTUS to be nothing but liberals? I DON'T!

RE: lilly
While not every Democratic voter is a felon, as you correctly point out most states (thankfully) prohibit felons from voting, the fact still remains that every single survey conducted on the subject has found that were felons able to vote, they'd vote OVERWHELMINGLY Democratic. Here's one example that shows nearly **70%** of felons would vote Democratic if they could:

http://www2.asanet.org/media/felons.html

(Please note that the study was performed by a pair of Democratic operatives in the ASA who support the reenfranchisement of felons on the basis that they'd get more Democrats elected.)

Other studies have put the estimate closer to **90%** Democratic leanings by felons.

In other words, while not all Democrat voters are felons, the OVERWHELMING majority of felons would vote Democrat had they the chance to do so.

This, of course, should not come as a surprise seeing how the founding of the Democratic Party can be traced back to Aaron Burr, a murderous traitor.

Too ininformed to vote
How can anyone get educated by reading the "news"
papers? I learned all the answers to those questions in grammer school. Todays kids do not really learn American history or Geography in the
schools today. Too much valuable time is used for
sex education, How to get AIDS, pregnant. Abortions or being punished for saying God.The writers in the news papers went to these schools
and not just the grade and high schools but Universitys too. Americans still call Hawaii and New Mexico visitors bureaus to ask what langusge is spoken and what currency is used. The NEA and
far left unions and legislators do not want an
educated majority because that would be the end
of most of those organizations. Just play your
games watch Tv and don't ask questions. TEST
Question for readers. Where did the idea for a three branch government come from and who brought it up? I will post the answer at 3pm CST here.

Vic
Allow me to cite statistics that will mean absolutely nothing to you. I googled state rankings based on educational achievement ("state education ranking" to be exact). Kerry carried the top 5 states in the 2004 election, and 7 of the top ten. Bush carried the bottom 3 states, and 7 of the bottom ten.

Make what you will of these rankings. My only point is that assuming that smart people vote republican while mentally disadvantaged people vote democrat is self serving and counter productive.

RE: Hang-tyme
States are not individuals.

Why not cite Gallup polling of voters? According to Gallup, conservative presidential candidates have won the vote of the college educated and wealthy voters EVERY election but one since they've done that polling (1952 was the first presidential election Gallup covered). Only LBJ's re-election landslide had Democrats winning the votes of the college educated and wealthy.

(Note that I use 'college educated' and 'wealth' as the measure because every study ever performed has found those two measures to be the best way to determine one's expected intelligence outside of actually giving them intelligence tests.)

Education is Key - Who Really Owns Land?
To limit voting to land-owners wouldn't change the current direction of government anyway. The majority of private property in the US is owned by banks by way of your mortgage. Only large corporations like Rupert Murdoch's Empire would have a true say by way of voting, and they already have their hands on the puppet strings. As long as the Supreme Court makes decisions like KELO, the government will be the ONLY true land "owner".

The problem lies in education, but half of America's children don't even want that. The only thing I got from the dry Econ 101 class I took was a basic understanding of supply & demand and how to balance my checkbook (not in the book, but my teacher thought it was important that we knew!).

I think a "Citizenship" class should be a requirement for graduation, that includes basic constitutional understanding, local level government, community service and current events as they apply to societal issues. And when these young minds are ready to vote, their application should include a test that must be passed. Upon passing, they would receive a special sticker to be placed upon their driver's license, which must be presented with a nominal (I think $25 is too much, but maybe $5 or $10) voting fee for the privilege.

Too Uninformed to Vote?

I think that there is a large segment of our society that chooses not to vote and is probably more informed than we think.

I really don’t see much difference in who is elected and have come to the conclusion that I have no representation in Washington. The recent attempt to force amnesty for illegal aliens really drove this point home for me.

I vote. But I refuse to be a slave to a party and vote for just any person that party chooses. Right now I cannot see that there is a candidate worthy of my vote. I really want a viable third party. I know that the Republican Party claims to be conservative but this is a lie. The Democrats, well pigs will be pigs. I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if the voters were given a choice to vote no confidence in either party.

Hang-tyme
Two things wrog with your postulate. One, education and "smart" do not necessarily correlate. Second, you are making the same mistake that a lot of people make in interpreting the election data based on State when you are talking about individuals and impact of certain parameters. Take a look at the election results for the past several elections when broken down by county. Blue States and Red States are not really separated that way. What you have is urban blue and rural red, with a mixture in the suburbs. Most of those "educated" people you are discussing reside in the suburbs and rural areas.

Note; the colors on the map below are reversed from what you are used to seeing on TV.


http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

Beowulfe
Beowulfe, I couldn't find the info you cited, but I did find imformation stating that Bush beat Kerry among college educated voters by 6 percent. However, the same stats showed that Kerry trounced Bush amongst college graduates with post graduate degrees (11%). Also, in the 2006 mid-term elections, democratic candidates beat republican candidates among college graduates by 8 percentage points.

Here are a few
Of the reasons for voting I have been given in my lifetime:

1. I vote Republican because Elvis was a Republican.
2. I voted for Clinton because he was better looking than Bush or Perot.
3. I voted for Clinton because Dole is too old.
4. I voted for Jimmy Carter because he is a farmer.
5. I voted for Gore because Bush’s father was already President and it’s illegal for him to be elected!

Notice 80% of the GOOFY answers are from LIBERALS!

Teaching, not testing
In the fading era of public schooling with still a vestige of civic responsibility (Late 1940's and very early 1950's); we were taught the form and usages of Branches of Government, Separation of Powers, and that the USA is a Republic. This all in "Grammar School", taught by ladies who had eighth grade diplomas, and a couple years at Mansfield Normal. They also explained that the Fathers had studied many forms of government from History. Guess which the Founders found the most abhorrent? Democracy, which when reduced to its ultimate pure form, depends on numbers rather than understanding when electing candidates to office. They formed a Republic. By 1918, thanks to "Progressive" input and the hustle from a former college president, we were fighting for Democracy across the Atlantic! We students were apprised of these facts in grammar School. What are our children being taught in the first six grades today?

Here's something to think about: Through the wonders of technology, we can be taught by many pundits, thus becoming informed voters. How well do they inform themselves about issues and candidates, so that they can give us authentic, well-researched information? Not very well, in my opinion. Else they would not be fronting for the so-called "First Tier" frauds in the GOP race. A teacher (which I think a columnist should be) has a responsibility to resist the line of least resistance and research in depth before writing. The Real Deal in the Republican field is Duncan Hunter. Yet he is hardly given mention. I 'found' him in a column George Will wrote this Spring, of all places. Thanks to Mr. Will, my search for the best candidate since Ronald Reagan was successful. Duncan Hunter/Sarah Palin 2008

Voting for the better of two lessers
The mantra of the day is to follow our dreams or those things we are passionate about. As we do we utilize our best selves, but can anyone tell me how one can be enthused about voting as a conservative? I'm serious. The pundits might get excited because that is how they are making their living, but to vote for someone that you know will not do much of what they claim and some of which they deny is disheartening. Nevertheless, I yet vote for those who do not stand up for what they profess. I understand from whence voter apathy springs.

Vic
You are really reaching. It's kind of ironic that you desire intelligence to be measured individually (of which I agree), yet support a system in which the president is elected on a statewide bases, not individual voting.

Let's view it individually then. Including the District of Columbia, there are 11 states (10 states and D.C.) whose population consist of college graduates comprising at least 30% of the population. Eight went to Kerry in 2004. You can use the suburb and city analogy (why do conservatives belittle city inhabitants?) all you want, but when you consider that Vermont and Massachusetts went to Kerry by 20 and 25 points respectively, that means that college graduates ALSO vote democratic.

Notice, I've never said that conservatives are dumb. I'm saying that assigning stupidity and labeling a person or group because their viewpoint is different (I'm not saying you're doing this) is both dumb and a mistake.

Hang-tyme writes"
"However, the same stats showed that Kerry trounced Bush amongst college graduates with post graduate degrees (11%)..."

The only thing this proves is that Kerry had a lock on the trial lawyer and "professional student" (aka, "professors & teachers") classes. Hardly any revelation there.. they know which hand feeds them.

RE: Hang-tyme
Go to http://www.gallup.com, pay their $95 anual fee, then you'll have all their polling data (fyi, I AM a paying member of Gallup, hence the reason I can see all their polling data).

Historically speaking, Republicans average beating Democrats among the college educated and among those who make more than $25,000 a year by about a 60% to 40% margin.

2006 was like the LBJ landslide: an anomoly. Democrats won that battle because they were able to dupe the unwitting public into thinking that they were cleaner than Republicans. Considering the approval rating for the Democrat-controlled congress is about 10 points below Bush's approval rating, that is unlikely to be repeated any time soon.

The fact of the matter remains that the less intelligent a person is, the more likely they are going to vote Democrat, if they vote at all.

This should not come to any surprise to anyone with a brain. The unintelligent tend to be poorer (thus they are unaffected by high taxes other than the BENEFITS they get when those taxes are translated into "free stuff" for them) and more prone to criminal behavior (thus favor the coddling they get from Democrats).

By the way, Gallup's polling indicates that in 2004, while Kerry beat Bush by 38 points among those who only had a grade school education, Bush beat Kerry by 16 points among college graduates.

CONCERNING THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
If 60,000 people in Ohio who voted for Bush had voted for Kerry, John Kerry would be our president, despite the fact that he would have lost the popular vote by almost 3 million. The electoral college undermines the American principle of majority rules.

If it's so important, why isn't it used in state races. You also have rural, suburban, and populous city areas within a state, but each person's vote carries equal weight.

It would also eliminate the embarrassing charade of 2 to 7 states holding the whole nation hostage. At times during the last couple of presidential elections, I thought the United States consisted of only Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida.

hanabee"Citizenship" class YES
__A great deal of what directs my vote comes from what I learned from childhood,our education system,and political party positions.I learned to live,and act,has a responsible American with a duty to family,neighbor,community,state,and nation.My "Citizenship" class was not a test,it was my life,starting from birth.I lived the principles embodied in our Constitution,has they were reinforced during public school education, and the unselfish actions of political parties. We now have selfish labor,and politicians, working in conjunction to strip these reinforcements from view. In turn,this has led to parents no longer teaching these responsibilities,has they never learned them in the first place. The domino effect has worked well in equalizing citizens,with passions of self-interest.As it has also helped to equalize their political passions by supporting a party to secure those interest.

Sheila
"While she was here, my daughter and I were talking about current events (as we do daily), and this girl asked us to stop. She told us that the news gave her an upset stomach."

Miss no-thing (as you describe your daughter's
friend) perhaps got sick of listening to your
politcal bantering, and considering your attitude
that might have been what was making her sick to
her stomach. I know it would affect me that way.

She was, in essence, telling you to shut up in
a way that was more polite than what she was
feeling. You knew she was not in agreement. Why
couldn't you just let it go. If you and your
daughter talk about politics every day, then
you get enough of it without inflicting it onto
other people also.

I suspect that what you were attempting to do
was to make her see the (your) light, and she
wasn't buying it.


Not a Democracy
Article 4 Section 4, US Constitution mandates a republican form of govt. democratic form rejected, by founders, read Federalist No. 10.
your article, with reference to democracy and democratic, appears to validate the saying, if you tell a lie often enought people will accept it as the truth.

Beowulfe
I'm not going to question your statistics, but like I said, I did view statistics that were certainly more democratic friendly. This could simply prove a popularly held viewpoint that you can make statistics say anything you want.

I tend to believe (not supported by stats) that the more reckless you are in your personal life, the less responsible you'll be in your civic life. If you don't have the initiative to prepare yourself for leading a productive life, you won't have the initiative to go to the polls on election day. If you go to the polls, you're more than likely informed about some of the issues.

Beowulfe state: "The fact of the matter remains that the less intelligent a person is, the more likely they are going to vote Democrat".

Hang-tyme: Sounds a lot like the argument that if Southernors weren't a bunch of uneducated hicks, they'd vote democrat. It's not my argument, but being from the South (Arkansas), I've heard it often.

only taxpayers and retirees should vote
I have a idea. Why not instead of a voter registration card to present at the poll, voters present the previous years tax return, if they paid in, they vote, if they received money, they don't. if they are over 65 and on social security, but did not pay in any taxes, no vote. in short, if you are pulling the wagon you vote on how far you pull. the freeloaders no longer get to write their own check.

Apathy Can Be a Virtue
The great thing about people who are too apathetic to educate themselves about what's going on is that they're also too apathetic to vote. Some even have a dim shadow of a sense of shame at the thought of voting when they have no clue for whom to vote or why (been there myself). Others have simply become stuck to the couch.

This apathetic absent sector of the electorate, who ipso facto don't support "either" side, are generally presumed to be ideologically "in the middle." It is primarily over these that all this blather about the alleged "moderates" supposedly disaffected by the "partisan bickering" and "extemism."

The welfare state is actually a bribe designed to pay a certain sector of the electorate to vote so as to keep the goodies coming. Trouble is, many who have the welfare mentality can't even be consistently motivated to go to the polls every two years, even when they're told in so many words who to vote for.

The lefties don't want this apathetic TV-saturated mob to actually get engaged and interested & start thinking about public policy & its ramifications. O no! They just want them all to walk, ride, stagger, waddle, or be carried to the polls on Election Day, or even to have the polls brought to them.

On what basis would such apathetic losers select a candidate, at least until Democratic poll workers are allowed to go in with them and actually punch the buttons for them? Why name recognition, of course! That's why the pop media wants "campaign finance reform" that stifles every voice but theirs. All they have to do is keep mentioneing "their guy" positively, the institutional party opponent negatively, and independents not at all, and this herd of so-called "moderate undecideds" will (mostly) vote accordingly.

Hang Tyme, have you had enough?
Vic and Beowolfe have handed you your hat several times and you are simply outmatched in this battle. But thanks for playing!

My Poll Test
We used to have these sorts of voter requirements. They are called Jim Crow laws. I recently moved to Alabama, so I reviewed the state constitution to see how the government differed from Arizona, where I moved from. The voter education requirements we used to have seem like a great idea, until you realize they were enacted with the sole purpose of preventing black people from voting.

In addition, when you think about it, the ability read or write, pay a certain amount of taxes, or recite how many senators are from your state, has very little bearing on whether you are able to cast a good vote. What is vital is knowing what issues are important to you, knowing how the candidate stands on those issues, and knowing what the limit of their influence on those issues will be.

My poll test would be candidate and issue oriented. First, the voter would be required to list the top three issues that are important to them in this election. In order for their vote for a candidate to count, they should be able to answer simple questions about that candidate's position on those issues.

For example, if a voter lists abortion, Iraq, and immigration as their top three issues, some questions might be:

Congress recently debated a bill requiring parental notification for a minor to have an abortion. Which way do you think candidate X voted on that bill? a) require notification, or b) do not require notification

What is the maximum number of U.S. troops candidate X expects will remain in Iraq by the end of his first year in office? a) zero b) 20,000 c) 75,000 d) depends on conditions on the ground

Which of the following immigration bills do you think the incumbent governor supported? a) illegal aliens must pay out-of-state tuition, b) English as the official language, c) illegal aliens accused of felonies should be denied bail, d) all of the above, or e) none of the above

My poll test would be open book, with the question pool available beforehand. The important thing is not for voters to prove how smart they are, but to ensure they are voting for candidates who truly represent their views.

Correction to prev post
I would include all veterans as part of the voting pool. they would be required to show a DD 214 in lieu of a tax return. otherwise, as I stated, I think that only TAXPAYERS WHO PAY IN!!! should be allowed to vote

Rich L.
I'm sure Vic and Beowulfe appreciate you unsolicited post of admiration.

Hang-tyme
Hang-tyme says: ..kind of ironic that you desire intelligence to be measured individually (of which I agree), yet support a system in which the president is elected on a statewide bases, not individual voting.
_______________________________________________

You have misquoted what I said. I said that YOU were looking at election data from a Statewide perspective while applying that data to individuals. I did to say to look at inteligence individualy. I also said that the degree of eduacation did not always correrlate to the amount of inteligence. It doesn't look like you went to the link that I provided at all.

My entire point was that there is a purpose for the elctorial college and just because the SC has almost eliminated federalism, the purpose has not gone away.

Rich L.
He is indeed finally right about one thing. I appreciate the thoughts, thanks.

I am embarrassed to admit it
but our college educated children and children in law know very little about what is going on except for what we tell them. They seem to be so busy with just working, rasing their children and taking care of their homes that sometimes they are not even headline readers. (One daughter-in-law commutes a long way to work for an afternoon hospital shift and listens to conservative satillite radio. Thank God for one!!! )Our psychiatrist daughter has seen headlines for global warming and is really worried on the basis of these headlines. She also thinks that "the root cause" of the terrorists is poverty.

JKG
John Kenneth Galbraith proclaimed in 1986: "If everybody in this country voted, the Democrats would be in for the next 100 years." {POSSIBLY}

"If everybody informed person in this country voted, the Republicans would be in for the next 100 years." {DEFINITELY}


Good Idea
I liked author Robert Heinlein's idea....only those with a minimum of 2 years military service are allowed to vote. (I guess we could add the Peace Corps as well, to keep the hippies happy)

Who was it who said
"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject."

Some long-dead roman leader.

That plainly-stated common sense has always made me struggle with the shortfalls of democracy.

viruddh
"Miss no-thing (as you describe your daughter's
friend) perhaps got sick of listening to your
politcal bantering, and considering your attitude
that might have been what was making her sick to
her stomach. I know it would affect me that way."

Actually, I wrote know-nothing, which is what I meant, and which is clearly what you are.

So you think that my talking about current events in my own home was wrong, huh? Not that it matters, but the current event (singular) was not political in nature. But, like other liberals, you simply want to shut up others who may not agree with you? You're right - that's much more polite than a conversation or even a debate.

Answer to TEST
James Madison ath the constitutional convention
stated that he was readinf Isaia 33:22 the night before and eealized that this was the answer.
For the lord is my Judge (Judicial) and the Lord is my lawgiver, (LegislativeI and the Lord is my King, (Executive),He will save us.Parentheses for those who are still confused.

A voting test ?


"And then they decide I’m supposed to get a smaller share, like I’m someone extra special stupid. Even if it is a democracy, in a democracy it don’t matter how stupid you are, you still get an equal share." - Lennie Pike (Jonathan Winters),in the movie "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World."

Eighteen or older is the rule, like it or not. What is done through one election can be undone in the next.

A test is foolish.
IQ should not affect your ability to vote. Its not as if those with high IQ vote any differently to anyone else. (thats true). Very intelligent people can have a wide variety of political views. Lenin was hardly dumb. (Even if he was a terrible dictator). In fact I suspect that those who vote (or voted) communist are more probable to be of a high IQ. (just an impression.) Politics is an opinion. All men (and women) are born equal. The idea of a test is terrible.

"Don't Tread On Me" correctly writes...
__"The welfare state is actually a bribe designed to pay a certain sector of the electorate to vote so as to keep the goodies coming." A bribe that began has speculative legislation to assist those facing turbulance in their lives.This speculation is now an uncontrollable money pit for the left,and its supporting factions.State,by state,a huge bureaucracy has been created to employ thousands of Americans who would never vote to end their jobs.Just as the thousands,upon thousands,play this system for benefit,will never vote to end their paycheck.All of this occurs because their are no checks,and balances,in the system,and the American public has no view of the interior workings.Nor do they care,as long has its not their problem.Take it from an American who has had the advantage of seeing this system up close,and personal. The left is taking you all for a ride.

Answer to test

Airforcetoo writes
'...for the Lord is my judge (Judicial) and the Lord is my lawgiver (Legislative) and the Lord is my King (Executive)..."

Wow! Bet tha's where "W" got the idea he's King Jorge!! I always wondered about that.

Molly Q
I see you are another of those people who seems to think that a president who doesn't constantly "lead" by focus groups and opinion polls is somehow behaving like a monarch.

I'll take leadership -- occasionally flawed though it is -- over these "blow with the wind" politicians any day.

But, do not despair. If you libs have it your way, you'll have your poll-driven co-presidents back selling the Lincoln Bedroom before you know it!

Jonah, as far as I'm concerned,
you and your mommy's stance on allowing 20 million+ illegal immigrants become US citizens, after they've given up the right by committing a crime, is every bit as ignorant. Why are you any different, doof? Further, in addition to a test on basic civics, we need to go back to the time when a person had to own real property to vote. This will eliminate the have-nots from voting in the confiscatory demtards that destroy the output of the working citizenry.

I'll say it
The Electoral College is the only thing that protects our Republic from the Socialist have not masses that would destroy it.

Rational ignorance must be considered
--
Just as Mr. Goldberg observes that there's no reason for him to know damn-all about cricket (ghod grant that I never need to learn anything about "Association Football" no matter how many of my grandchildren play soccer), the principle of rational ignorance - whereby an individual doesn't invest effort in learning about something that doesn't significantly impact upon his well-being and happiness - is a *HEALTHY* sign of life in America.

Think about it.

If a private citizen doesn't find it necessary to learn the names of the corrupt weasel supposedly "representing" him in Congress, or the bloated geriatrics cases with keys to the plush restrooms just off the floor of the U.S. Senate, that's a sign that he doesn't consider these scum-suckers to have any significant proximal impact on his life, or on the lives of the people who are important to him.

While that might not necessarily be the case, it sure as hell *OUGHT* to be.

--
"Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

...--P. J. O'Rourke
--


wiseone
I agree with much that you've said. However, our Constitution did, originally, have a place for the "average citizen" who was not "properly concerned or informed to cast a useful ballot" to vote. It was in the US House. The Founders were wary of the public choosing Senators or the President, but they gave them full power to elect US Reps. Why?

I think this was done to give 'the people' control over one very important thing - the gov't spending THEIR money. Recall Article I, Section 7, "All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; ...".

Again, I think we agree. Just clarifying here.

Many ARE too uninformed to vote.
I agree with some of this article's basic tenets. However, Jonah asks if it doesn't matter why we vote. We would all like to think it does, but in truth, I question that. The political articles, greed, politics and the finding of loopholes and work-arounds have made a mess of what once was a masterfully constructed system. Today, does it really matter anymore if people know why they are voting? I doubt it.

Nevertheless, we are all incredibly lucky to have a system where we can not only vote, but we can also help choose the person we can vote for, and also, if we choose not to vote, that is okay too. As bad as this country can be sometimes, there is no better place that I know of.

I believe, therefore, that illegal immigration poses a monster threat to the sanctity of our system. How can we even think about legalizing between 12 and 20 million people (and giving them the right to vote) who can't even speak English and don't want to? Talk about GIVING AWAY our freedoms? That's a big time example.

Hang-tyme - RE the Electoral College
Responding to your concerns about the Electoral College (EC):

- The EC does not undermine the American principle of "majority rules". That's because it is NOT an American principle. It's a democracy principle, and our government is not a democracy. The Founders clearly rejected that idea. The President is rightly called the 'President of the United States', not the 'President of the American people'. The EC preserves that understanding, which is sorely lacking in our schools today.

- The EC is not used in state elections (I assume you refer to Governor races) because the Governor is in leadership of the people, not the counties. The concept of Federalism does not exist within a State.

- Watching the past few elections on TV it does look as though only a small number of states control the outcome. This is deceptively done by the networks to promote ratings. Obviously, all the State results are equally important. It's just that, because of polling technologies, most State outcomes are known in advance with a high degree of probability. These 2-7 States you mention are simply those whose outcome isn't clearly known.

Hang-tyme - a bit more
Here's a different defense for the EC for you to chew on. If we simply elected a President using majority rule, we'd greatly increase the amount of voting fraud and corruption in this country, as we saw in Mexico's last Pres. election where they use that system. Why?

Let's say you're a person intent on rigging an election by pumping in a bunch of fraudulent votes. In a majority-vote system this works anywhere in the country and so has to be safeguarded against everywhere. This is because every extra vote you introduce affects the national outcome. In an EC system, this only works in a few places and so has to be safeguared against in only a few. This is because the extra votes you introduce often have no effect on the national outcome. You get no extra EC votes in a state by changing the win from 60-40 to 65-35, only by changing a loss into a win, which only is possible in the handful of 'tossup' states.

If you move to a national system, you'd better be ready for Florida-style recounts and court battles all over the country after every election.

The Dems would all like to
do away with the EC system because they are losing delegates from the NE to the SW and SE. The NE has been their stronghold since 1968. CA would also be losing delegates except that the census bureau counts illegals for population which maintains their count high. If it wasn't for illegals coming in CA would have had a population decrease.

I have a 20 year old kid working
On my crew who thinks that Barak the Clean will save us. He catches his news during commercials while he watches the Simpsons. He actually told me this. I am truly frightened.

Members, whether Mensa or moronic
Yes I know this was posted elsewhere a few minutes ago, but … … … …

As the election approaches, some people will say, with pride, “I vote for the best candidate, not for the party!” That citizen just doesn’t understand how our government is run. In the Congress or the State Legislature, the party with the most members makes the rules, and decides who will be permitted to control the Legislature.

The right to structure and control the Senate, the House and the Assembly, has nothing to do with the competence of individuals who have been elected; brains do not count; ability doesn’t matter; character is immaterial; only the count of party membership decides who gets to make the laws under which we will live.

Assume you have elected the greatest legislator you can imagine. If that person is not in the Majority party, he/she will be permitted to accomplish almost nothing.

One or two Members, whether Mensa or moronic, will make little difference. Just look at who is there now!!

Teachers Union
Just be careful. If a voting test were approved, the problem is that members of the Teachers Union would try to create and grade the test.

And that I don't like at all.

Rich L.
Post from Wednesday, August, 01, 2007 8:32 AM

You hit the nail on the head. People who have no investment in our government should not be allowed to choose who speaks for us. Those who do not contribute financially to the operation of the country should not have a say in how the money is spent.

Answer to test
Primus,

You couldn't be more wrong. Truth is, I'm decidedly conservative. (First time I've ever been misread as a lib!)

My chief objection to King Jorge is his belief that, like monarchs of old, all the land is his to give to whomever he chooses. And right now he appears to choose to give the U.S. to Mexico, disregarding the wishes and the welfare of his "subjects."

His role in the proposal to merge the U.S. with Mexico and Canada, without Congressional debate or any input from the American people, suggests he believes in the "divine right" of kings. (Check out the Waco Declaration of March 23, 2005 -- Bush was one of the signers) The North American Union would mean a shared currency, a shared judiciary, no borders and no sovereignty. It would end our status as a sovereign nation and transfer control of North America to a bureaucrat-run superstructure. This plan is proceeding very rapidly -- and by design it is being done incrementally, in conferences and meetings closed to the public. In their own words, "evolution by stealth."

Parick Henry said, "In proportion to the magnitude of the discussion ought to be the freedom of the debate." (At least, words to that effect.) What could be more important to Americans than the sovereignty and the very survival of our country? There has been NO debate, with either Congress or the citizenry.

The people have made clear that we want our borders secured, our laws observed, and our sovereignty maintained. Yet King Jorge, in imperial fashion, does as HE chooses -- and American citizens be damned.

For further enlightenment, read Jerome Corsi"s book "The Late Great USA" subtitled "The coming merger with Mexico and Canada."






As knowledge grows exponentially...
people are increasingly lulled by the wasteland of TV, movies (some are good), and video games.

Since we make no qualitative distinctions in voters, we get the lowest common denominator--old people who are never satisfied with their level of welfare.

And why do we have the vote on a weekday. In this the French have it right. They have voting over an entire weekend. That way the Mon- Fri working stiffs can have the same opportunity to vote.

But the layabouts and retirees have the command view. People who are recipients of government largesse shouldn't be allowed to vote, pace J.S. Mill.
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