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Wednesday, July 25, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
In Iraq, Liberals Flip on Genocide
by Jonah Goldberg
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Barack Obama says preventing genocide isn't a good enough reason to stay in Iraq.

"By that argument you would have 300,000 troops in the Congo right now - where millions have been slaughtered as a consequence of ethnic strife - which we haven't done," he told the Associated Press. "We would be deploying unilaterally and occupying the Sudan, which we haven't done. Those of us who care about Darfur don't think it would be a good idea."

It's worth pointing out a key difference between the potential genocide in Iraq and the heart-wrenching slaughters in Congo and Sudan: The latter aren't our fault. But if genocide unfolds in Iraq after American troops depart, it would be hard to argue that we weren't at least partly to blame. Yes, the mass murder would have more immediate authors than the United States of America, but we would undeniably be responsible, at least in part, for giving a green light to genocide. Obama offers precisely that green light in his proposed Iraq War De-escalation Act.

Some advocates of withdrawal try to maintain the moral high ground by arguing that there won't be genocidal slaughter - though that sounds like self-delusion to me. Most close observers of the situation believe that if the U.S. were to sail out of Iraq, it would be on a river of Iraqi blood.

"The only thing standing between Iraq and a descent into a Lebanon- or Bosnia-like maelstrom," a new report from the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution concludes, "is 135,000 American troops." Rapid withdrawal, the report says, could bring "a humanitarian nightmare" in which "we should expect hundreds of thousands (conceivably even millions) of people to die."

New York Times reporter John Burns, who has won plaudits across the ideological spectrum for the clarity of his reporting, recently told Charlie Rose of PBS, "It seems to me incontrovertible that the most likely outcome of an American withdrawal any time soon would be cataclysmic violence, and I find that to be widely agreed among Iraqis, including Iraqis who widely opposed the invasion."

Ultimately, it's unknowable what would - or will - happen if the U.S. "redeploys" until it happens. But what I find fascinating is the growing consensus around the Obama withdrawal-is-justifiable position. (If you think this unfair to Obama, feel free to call it the Hillary Doctrine or the Edwards Corollary or the Richardson Rule.)

Liberals used to be the ones who argued that sending U.S. troops abroad was a small price to pay to stop genocide; now they argue that genocide is a small price to pay to bring U.S. troops home.

President Clinton lied in his 1998 apology to survivors of the Rwandan massacre when he suggested that he and his staff hadn't known genocide was taking place. Documents obtained subsequently under the Freedom of Information Act in 2004 by activist groups showed that the Clinton administration referred to the slaughter as "genocide" in its internal discussions but refused to say so publicly because Clinton had decided against intervention.

"Genocide can occur anywhere. It is not an African phenomenon," he said in 1998 as part of his apology. "We must have global vigilance. And never again must we be shy in the face of the evidence." Thus, Clinton nicely articulated a moral principle whose moral authority he excluded himself from.

Nonetheless, this principle has saturated much of the recent discussion about Darfur. Indeed, as historian and columnist Niall Ferguson noted, Obama called for an increased military commitment in Sudan, including possibly sending NATO, in order to prevent genocide just two years ago.

There's been so much talk about how conservative foreign policy's moral credibility has been demolished under President Bush. Maybe. But what of liberal credibility? In the 1990s, amid the debates about Haiti, Somalia, Yugoslavia and Rwanda, the broad outline of the debate had conservatives advocating a narrower definition of the national interest while liberals argued - and I often agreed with them - for a more expansive one that included a heavy dose of moralism. Finally, liberals seemed to have shaken off the Vietnam syndrome and embraced an overly optimistic but benign foreign policy of nation-building and do-goodery.

Conservatives are at least still arguing about the national interest - but they're also the ones touting the moral imperative of preventing genocide and even the need for nation-building. Where is the principle in the hash of liberal foreign policy today? How does liberalism recover? If you can justify causing genocide in order to end a nation-building exercise that - unlike similar efforts elsewhere - is fundamentally linked to our national interest, then how can you ever return to arguing that we should get into the nation-building and genocide-stopping business when it's explicitly not in our interest?

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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lolzz!!!!
Jonah Golberg, infamous for his bet that Iraq would succeed beautifully which he never paid, is now trying to lecture us on how the war in Iraq was in our national interest... what a joke.

Sorry, Pokey..........
.....Jonah's right on the money.

He nails it here:

"Liberals used to be the ones who argued that sending U.S. troops abroad was a small price to pay to stop genocide; now they argue that genocide is a small price to pay to bring U.S. troops home."

Bright guy.

NEOCONS ARE LIBERAL
We cannt be the policemen of the world this is a verl liberal concept! And now we have NEOCON-MEN calling this conservative.This is why the father of the conservative movement is against this policy!

Buckley: Bush Not A True Conservative
Do you think the GOP will get back to its conservative roots and get rid of NEOCONS?

(CBS) President Bush ran for office as a “compassionate conservative.” And he continues to nurture his conservative base — even issuing his first veto this week against embryonic stem cell research.

But lately his foreign policy has come under fire from some conservatives — including the father of modern conservatism, William F. Buckley.

Buckley finds himself parting ways with President Bush, whom he praises as a decisive leader but admonishes for having strayed from true conservative principles in his foreign policy.

In particular, Buckley views the three-and-a-half-year Iraq War as a failure.

“If you had a European prime minister who experienced what we’ve experienced it would be expected that he would retire or resign,” Buckley says.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/buckley-bush-not-a-true-conservative


Since when
did Goldberg join the 'Blame America First' group? Why would it be our fault if we left and these people killed each other?
We've given them the gift of freedom. We can't help what they do with it.

Departure from Iraq
liberal politicians frequently compare our invasion of Iraq with our "invasion" of Vietnam, but I have yet to see them compare the consequences of our departure from Vietnam (a million dead in Cambodia alone and hundreds of thousands imprisoned are fled the country) with the potential consequences of a departure from Iraq. Neither do I ever hear them speak of withdrawing our forces from Germany, Japan or Korea - could it be because they enjoy their frequent "fact finding" paid vacations there? Bill D.

White House Long Term Plan?

Commanders plan for Iraq presence through 2009


Why would we stay two more years to give Iraq more time to form a strong federal government that they do not want? Do you think that the Iraq parliament would of gone on vacation while our troops are dying in they were serious about political compromises? Is it not time for U.S. Congress to put aside the politics and get a real plan?

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The senior U.S. commander in Iraq is preparing a plan for military operations that sets summer 2009 as the goal for achieving a sustainable level of security throughout the country, his spokesman said on Tuesday.

The draft, developed by Gen. David Petraeus’ staff, lays out a series of security-related goals over two years, envisioning U.S. troops in the war zone through 2009.

The plan, first reported by The New York Times, comes as Democrats in the U.S. Congress press for a strategy change that leads to withdrawal.

The Bush administration, however, has called for more time to establish security in Iraq so that Iraqi politicians can make progress on benchmarks seen by Washington as critical to long-term stability.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/commanders-plan-for-iraq-presence-through-2009


Obama's Hypocracy
The people of Iraq are not Black enough for Mr Obama to defend from genocide like in Darfur. Genocide is wrong, no matter what color the victims skin is! Israel stands on the brink of genocide every day from terrorist states funding a variety of slow genocide. Obama is not fit to be dogcatcher in DC Grandmaster Ro

HalO
You're wrong about genocide. It can mean killing a part of a group, too. Look it up. It's from the UN's definition. I admit that talking about "part" of a group is pretty vague, but then I didn't come up with that definition.

"Leaving aside the question of whether this would have been less likely if we had allowed Saddam Hussein to remain in control...."

Why would you want to leave that aside? Don't tell me you're one of those idiots who think that before we got there Iraq was a happy land with kids flying kites in it?

"We went into the former Yugoslavia to prevent "ethnic cleansing", but all we did...."

Whatever we did was more than Europe did, which was nothing.

"As for what Israel has been doing to the Palestinian Arabs since 1948... oops, sorry, forgot that's off-limits in the land of the First Amendment."

No, it isn't. But what Palestinian society does to women and gays is off-limits to the left.

So, what's your foreign policy? Are you an isolationist?

The bottom line
Is that "progressives" are all in favor of U.S. intervention in foreign lands where we, as a nation, have no overarching national interest. This was well displayed in Kosovo, and in Somalia. Dafur is another place that fits this description. I suspect that any Democratic President who took the oath of office in 2009 would be sending U.S. forces to Darfur no matter what, just on the grounds that it would allow progressives to "feel good about themselves".

And in such deployments, progressives also insist on restrictive and often contradictory Rules Of Engagement (ROE), which make it virtually impossible for military units deployed to carry out the mission(s) the progressives direct them to undertake. In fact, the mission objectives themselves are often both contradictory or simply illogical (Somalia being the most infamous example).

One can only imagine what the ROE might be in Darfur; since Christians, animists, and Muslims are being killed by gangs of Muslims apparently based solely on their ethnicity and/or lineage, exactly who are you supposed to protect from whom? If you attack the "janjaweed" you're being "politically incorrect"- if you try to help their victims, you're "supporting religion with taxpayers' money", which is also highly "un-P.C."

And of course, the government over there tacitly supports the gunmen for purely political reasons (their victims are on land the government wants to grab. Again, exactly who do you back? Do you go to war against the central government? Can you prove that they are, in fact, responsible? And if you can, what do you do then? Sanctions? You mean, like those we tried against- Iraq?

An intervention in Darfur would be exactly like Somalia- only worse. And would have no useful effect, and cost us a lot of our service men and women's lives. To accomplish exactly nothing.

This probably explains why our "progressive leaders" are so eager to kick it off.

The idea that the military is only to be used where (1) doing so does nothing to protect us from those abroad who wish us ill and (2) where the maximum number of casualties may be inflicted upon us while our forces are prevented from doing likewise to our opponents is a very up-to-date, with-it, "post-modern" way of making war. That I guarantee you won't find in Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, or Liddell Hart.

This probably also explains why the progressives are so anxious to leave Iraq in the lurch. First of all, while we have taken casualties (more than Chickamauga but less than D-Day, so far), we have inflicted many more than we have taken, and second, our troops are actually killing people who have defined themselves as our enemies and have been prosecuting their own war against us for at least 14 years (going back to the first WTC attack), if not longer (going back to the birth of Black September & Co. in the 1970s). The difference is, we are finally shooting back, and they are learning the hard way that when a bunch of would-be harda**es who fancy themselves "holy warriors" make the mistake of trying to go head-to-head with the toughest, best trained, and most professional militaries on the planet (Us, the Brits, the Aussies, the South Koreans, the Danes, etc.), they are going to end up in body bags in very large numbers. And I personally don't have a problem with that, as I consider these "homicidal Utopians" to be about as capable of being "reformed" as the lot we put on trial at Nuremburg in 1946. (Hanging is too good for most of this bunch, too.)

All of which discourages their cronies from attacking us again, and even if it doesn't, it makes it less likely that they will have the wherewithal (manpower, materiel', etc.) to continue to prosecute their grand dream of a worldwide Caliphate, with the rest of us as either slaves or compost.

Since the progressives are equally determined to demolish our civilization in pursuit of their own brand of utopianism, and see the Jihadists as the latest crop of "useful idiots" and "cannon fodder" in their own little megalomaniac fantasy, this (needless to say) puts a serious crimp in their plans, as well.

A friend of mine (25-year USAF) made the observation after Mogadishu that the then-Clinton Administration's objectives seemed to be to repeatedly place our military personnel in harm's way under such restrictive orders as to guarantee both mission failure and massive casualties. In his opinion, the endgame was to destroy the military's morale and will to fight, and to discourage new recruits, so they could essentially dismantle (or in his words, "gut") our military without actually having to come ruight out and admit they were doing so. He attributed this motivation to the reflexive hatred of the military which this crowd had exhibited going back to the Days of Rage in Chicago in 1968.

In case no one has noticed, the same lot are running the Democratic Party today. And I do not believe their motives, or their objectives, have changed substantially since they were wearing peace signs and chanting "Two, Four, Six, Eight, Organize To Smash The State!"

Just remember- the "state" they want to smash is the rest of us.

cheers

eon

pulling out of iraq causing poss. genoci
Has anybody heard the phrase that what doesn,t kill you makes STRONGER !!! Well our ENEMIES have too !!! I personally analogize these S U B - H U M A N S as the equivolent to killer bee,s they came here uninvited and they are taking over many honey bee,s hives and radicalizing those bee,s and spreading out all over the states and if you stumble upon them you will wish you were never born .PEOPLE WAKE UP THEY WANT KILL OR CONVERT US ALL TO ISLAM as AL GORE SAYS THE DEBATE IS OVER THER IS NO MORE DISCUSSIONS WE HAVE TO ACT!!!

Inaction
"... the Clinton administration referred to the slaughter as "genocide" in its internal discussions but refused to say so publicly because Clinton had decided against intervention."

But that would mean we would have invaded a country, and taken over! Exactly what you HAVE to do. Exactly what we did in Iraq, and you know what -- it's starting to work... These are NEVER instant and overnight successes.

An example for any "bleeding heart left winger" -- it's like a police intervention in a sexual child abuse case. You CAN arrest the creep, but eventually some "bleeding heart(s)" will plead for the creep, and they get let go... and it happens all over again.

Don't believe me? It happen this week in suburban Washington D.C. and it will happen else where without the media hype elsewhere too.

You have to go beyond "stop," and sometimes this means that you kill those that do evil. Separation DOES NOT work. The parties involved MUST either come to an coexistence, or fight to the death.

tanabear
You hit the nail on the head!

In addition to your comments, Mr. Goldberg is making an ASSUMPTION that genocide is going to occur and that's why we should stay there. His sources, well some of the same people who have been wrong about this war from the start. These folks get it wrong, change the scenario and get it wrong again, and continue with this pattern. They then come back and tell us that we should follow them because they've got it right THIS time.

Time for a change.

Mr. Goldberg, you just like President Bush. YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

Konop
Neoconservatives are hardly liberal. They view the military as a means of liberating other countries from tyrannical oppressors. Liberals see the military as a means of tyrannical oppression and imperialism. I should think conservatives would prefer to ally themselves with the neocons on such a view.

Why Iraq and not Darfur?
Would Iraq be in chaos if Saddam were still alive? No, the regime responsible for the mass graves and the rape rooms would certainly be maintaining order.

We went into Iraq because everyone knew that Saddam had chemical weapons, was likely to be developing biological weapons, and was known to have been working on nuclear weapons. (The question has never been one of "no WMDs", but rather one of what he did with them while we dithered at the UN.) Once we toppled Saddam, it became our responsibility to restore order, and it still is, despite having foolishly restored Iraqi "sovereignty" when we did. If we leave, then we will have abandoned our allies there to slaughter.

What is the difference between Iraq on the one hand and Darfur and the Conogo on the other? Pacifying Iraq is in our national security interest; the others are not. The one demands the presence of our Armed Forces; the others do not.

So often the same fools who would have us leave Iraq would involve us in Africa. Such fools must always be thwarted.

Congo
I detest typos.

Pitchfrack (HalO) ignorant as usual
Wiping out a percentage substantially less than 100 (but greater than 0) of a particular ethnic group (as 1971's "Operation Searchlight" by Pakistan, specifically calculated to kill about 4% of the Bengalis) is also genocide!

Had Pitchfrack stated "it's genocide when it's by our declared enemy, but not when it's by an ally", there would have been some point--instead he went on some tangent.

Pitchfrack's most egregious example is to talk of Israel's (supposed) actions "since 1948". Looking at them to a realistic scope, the "Palestinians" are treated far better than the Biharis of Bangladesh (the ONLY even close-to-valid comparison) especially considering their ("Palesinians") open collaboration with Nazi regime prior to and during WW2 (parallel was the Biharis' "razakar" gang-support of "Operation Searchlight", and the subsequent hatred of Bengalis toward them).

In Iraq, Liberals Flip on Genocide
Trag was a big mistake. We have also tried to help the present goverment, bu they insist on taking a whole month off. I think nothing can prevent the two major groups from trying to kill each other, so its time to cut are losses and redeploy.

We need to star thinking about what we are going to do about Iran and we need the troops for that.

Why do liberals oppose Iraq war?
Because it was started out by a Republican President.

If Clinton had decided that we needed to eliminate Iraq as a logistics source for Islamists, and had authorized an invasion, you can bet the farm that the very Socialists now crying for Bush's head would be spewing essay after essay about how necessary it was.

OK, maybe the really far Left might still oppose armed intervention, out of pacifist grounds, but I doubt it. They hate us, as a capitalist, free-market republic so much, that it pushes their pacifism into the background.

No, the Left opposes it, because conservatives are for it. If they'd see warfare as furthering their goals, then they'd support it.

Hillary delenda est.

Jonah says
"Liberals used to be the ones who argued that sending U.S. troops abroad was a small price to pay to stop genocide; now they argue that genocide is a small price to pay to bring U.S. troops home."

What an awesome statement. The republican Presidential candidates should recite that as a mantra every chance they get.


For theBaron
Unfortunately, history has proven your assumption incorrect.

Troops were first sent into Vietnam by Kennedy, and troopload increased by Johnson. Nixon had attempted to turn over more of the fighting to the ARVN and giving logistical support/training to them to maintain it.

When Nixon resigned due to Watergate, the Demonicrud-controlled Congress promptly ended his logistical support of ARVN

quote from the Wikipedia article on ARVN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARVN

"However, forced to carry the burden left by the Americans, the South Vietnamese army actually started to perform rather well and in 1970 was clearly winning the war against the Communists, though with continued American air support. The exhaustion of the North was becoming evident and the Paris talks gave some hope of a negotiated peace if not a victory."

From same article:

"Congress cut funding to South Vietnam for the upcoming fiscal year from 1 billion to 700 million dollars. Historians have directly attributed the fall of Saigon in 1975 to the cessation of American aid. Without the necessary funds, South Vietnam found it logistically and financially hard to defeat the North Vietnamese army. Moreover, the withdrawal of aid encouraged North Vietnam to begin an effective military offensive against South Vietnam. This was strengthened by the fact that Nixon had promised Thieu a 'severe retaliation' if the Communists broke the 1973 Paris Peace Accords. The new American government did not think themselves bound to this promise."

Note that Kennedy and Johnson were....Demonicruds!!!! Demonicruds in Congress then voted to cut funding because a Republican had actually taken over management/transfer-over--and was actually doing it well--of a war started by a President of THEIR party.

theBaron is correct.
If Gore would have won the Presidency and invaded Iraq, the media et al would still be behind the effort. By the way, did anyone ever bother to count the civilian casualties that resulted from the indiscriminate, illegal bombings of Bosnia?

For Boromir's Horn
Thanks for the clarification.

My own was the view of Clinton starting the war and Bush still winning in 2000, inheriting and managing it--for which case, I still stand by my overly long post.

The Libs Gives The Iraqi The FInger
It will be almost impossible for a President Hillary to commit troops anywhere when one considers the Democratic Rhetoric. Hillary and her libs have all but promised that they will cut-and-run the minute she enters the WH.

Once she abandons the Iraqis, there will be a huge push to abandon Afghanistan. One thing that must be remembered about Libs, they will run from the first sign of danger. Our allies had better learn this fact mighty quick.

The only war the libs like to fight is one that uses the occaisonal cruise missle, or high level bomber.

svpallava
Duly noted. I think the world and certainly the demonratic party has changed much since vietnam.

For JPK
Al Qaeda's own recent stupidity in declaring "jihad" against Pakistan and India will mitigate greatly the effects of a Shillary win, as it frees the police and militaries of these two countries to "encounter" AQ and Taliban supporters; it would be very naive to assume that Afghan police and military are unfamiliar with that strategy.

Ever notice how some
folks argue that the US should leave Iraq because Iraqis don't want the US there don't seem to maintain their argument whenever there is evidence that Iraqis want US forces to stay?

I also had an interesting insight into how people from despotic countries viewed the US' removal of Saddam in Iraq. When the US invaded, I had people I know from Myanmar - the country formerly known as Burma - tell me that they wished the US would invade their country and topple the military dictatorship there.

eddred says
"Saudis will jump into the fight"

If they do, it will be through a third party. The Saudi's don't fight, they spend.

A question on the "bloodbath"
so repubs/cons who are predicting a "bloodbath"
if the U.S. leaves Iraq prematurely a question.

What if the U.S. "victoriously wins" as you are wont to say, then leaves Iraq, and a "bloodbath"
still incurs at that point?

troops yes, GOP no, evidently
Jonah Goldberg writes: "But if genocide unfolds in Iraq after American troops depart, it would be hard to argue that we weren't at least partly to blame."

I see! So what you're saying, Jonah, is that the Bush policies in Iraq inadvertently brought about genocidal conditions in Iraq. And so now the U.S. must keep troops in Iraq, even after Bush leaves office, to repair Bush's mistake.

Do you REALLY want to make THAT argument to the American people in the 2008 campaign? "We Republicans inadvertently genocidal conditions in Iraq, so you had better let us fix it."

That may be an argument to keep troops in Iraq. But it's definitely NOT an argument that the same Republican Party that created genocidal conditions in Iraq in the first place should be the one to try to fix those conditions. It's an argument to let the Democrats have a try.

Think about it.


Alas Damascus
Unless I miss my guess, pulling out pronto would drive Israel into nuking all comers that want a fight with her; she will be justified to protect herself. That's a right of any state. Our presence there pretty much is preventing the entire region from turning into charred sand.
Isaiah 17:1 "....and it shall be a charred heap."
My bet is there's going to be more than a lousy genocide happening if we pull out.

For Boromir's Horn
On the nail on your reply to eddred--Saudis never have had the gumption to fight, as even shown in Gulf War (why else would Bush Sr., Thatcher/Major and Mubarak have had to send troops for that nation's defence?). In fact, their so called "Storming of Musmak" was a stunt done after Edmund Allenby had already won it; the kingdom would not even exist if Abdul Aziz had not caught T.L. Lawrence in a "compromising position" (as in homosexual tryst) and then blackmailed him.

When it is you....
bound hand and foot, kneeling at the edge of a corpse filled pit and you see an army and a flag on the horizon, will you pray that that flag has fifty stars on a blue field with seven red strips and six white.

If you had seen...
off the coast of your war ravedged country a ship called Hope, Mercy, Comfort, Relief or Solice what flag would you seen flying above that ship.

What killing fields?
Bill writes:

"....liberal politicians frequently compare our invasion of Iraq with our "invasion" of Vietnam, but I have yet to see them compare the consequences of our departure from Vietnam (a million dead in Cambodia alone and hundreds of thousands imprisoned are fled the country.."

C'mon, they were just re-educated! John Kerry said so!!!

Let the bombing begin...
Khan writes:

"We need to star thinking about what we are going to do about Iran and we need the troops for that."

I would agree with your assesment that the Iranians need to be dealt wth, hell, SHOULD have been dealt with by now.

What's funny is how the lefties are now beating the war drums regarding Iran, Pakistan, and Waziristan.

Bubba the bomber

Baromir writes:

"By the way, did anyone ever bother to count the civilian casualties that resulted from the indiscriminate, illegal bombings of Bosnia?"

C'mon, when Clinton bombed, nobody died!! The media tells us so.

HalO
You are projecting onto the Founders your own ideas. Or can you explain a little more?

Do you mean non-intervention like the attack on the Barbary kingdoms? They had not attacked American soil. Why did a Founder make an illegal undeclared war on them?

Do you mean refusal of "most-favored nation" alliances as espoused by the Anglophile Federalists, or the Francophile Anti-Federalists?

Do you mean acceptance of our sized nation as the one that doubled in size under a Founder?

The fact is the founders were idealistic, but practical men. They knew they had to deal with the world as it was not as they wished it to be. You can wish Iraq or WWII or the Civil War never happened, but they are done. If you think stopping America's interest at our border is going to return us to a 17th Century agrarian utopia, you are sorely mistaken.

For Bruzazki
Don't waste your time expecting Pitchfrack (HalO) to explain anything; he cannot, as he doesn't even see his errors--despite of their being pointed out repeatedly (not only by JFP and myself).


The Baron
I think you are on to something, but it goes further. It is all about the Dems regaining power. If they can pressure Bush to withdraw, any and all resulting carnage will be laid by the MSM and the Dems at his door. Maybe in a sane world this would not be so, but I believe any genocide as a result of our leaving Iraq will be spun as the inevitable results of "Bush lying us into war", with the Dems being protrayed as statesmen trying to sort out the miserable mess our bungling Pres. has laid at our doorstep. If, however, for some reason, there isn't a bloodbath, they will take all the credit.

Instinctively, they know the MSM will provide cover for them either way it turns out. Think back. When Clinton signed the welfare reform bill kicking and screaming and it worked, he took credit for the legislation. When Bush 41 was dragged into a tax increase kicking and screaming, the Dems gave him credit for the supposed bi-partisan legislation for about 24 hours; then they turned around and made him a punching bag for breaking his word.
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