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Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Do Away With Public Schools
by Jonah Goldberg
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Here's a good question for you: Why have public schools at all?

OK, cue the marching music. We need public schools because blah blah blah and yada yada yada. We could say blah is common culture and yada is the government's interest in promoting the general welfare. Or that children are the future. And a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Because we can't leave any child behind.

The problem with all these bromides is that they leave out the simple fact that one of the surest ways to leave a kid "behind" is to hand him over to the government. Americans want universal education, just as they want universally safe food. But nobody believes that the government should run nearly all of the restaurants, farms and supermarkets. Why should it run the vast majority of the schools - particularly when it gets terrible results?

Consider Washington, home of the nation's most devoted government-lovers and, ironically, the city with arguably the worst public schools in the country. Out of the 100 largest school districts, according to the Washington Post, D.C. ranks third in spending for each pupil ($12,979) but last in spending on instruction. Fifty-six cents out of every dollar go to administrators who, it's no secret, do a miserable job administrating, even though D.C. schools have been in a state of "reform" for nearly 40 years.

In a blistering series, the Post has documented how badly the bureaucrats have run public education. More than half of the District of Columbia's teenage kids spend their days in "persistently dangerous" schools, with an average of nine violent incidents a day in a system with 135 schools. "Principals reporting dangerous conditions or urgently needed repairs in their buildings wait, on average, 379 days ... for the problems to be fixed," according to the Post. But hey, at least the kids are getting a lousy education. A mere 19 schools managed to get "proficient" scores or better for a majority of students on the district's Comprehensive Assessment Test.

A standard response to such criticisms is to say we don't spend enough on public education. But if money were the solution, wouldn't the district, which spends nearly $13,000 on every kid, rank near the top? If you think more money will fix the schools, make your checks out to "cash" and send them to me.

Private, parochial and charter schools get better results. Parents know this. Applications for vouchers in the district dwarf the available supply, and home schooling has exploded.

As for schools teaching kids about the common culture and all that, as a conservative I couldn't agree more. But is there evidence that public schools are better at it? The results of the 2006 National Assessment of Educational Progress history and civics exams showed that two-thirds of U.S. high school seniors couldn't identify the significance of a photo of a theater with a sign reading "Colored Entrance." And keep in mind, political correctness pretty much guarantees that Jim Crow and the civil rights movement are included in syllabi. Imagine how few kids can intelligently discuss Manifest Destiny or free silver.

Right now, there's a renewed debate about providing "universal" health insurance. For some liberals, this simply means replicating the public school model for health care. (Stop laughing.) But for others, this means mandating that everyone have health insurance - just as we mandate that all drivers have car insurance - and then throwing tax dollars at poorer folks to make sure no one falls through the cracks.

There's a consensus in America that every child should get an education, but as David Gelernter noted recently in the Weekly Standard, there's no such consensus that public schools need to do the educating.

Really, what would be so terrible about government mandating that every kid has to go to school, and providing subsidies and oversight when necessary, but then getting out of the way?

Milton Friedman noted long ago that the government is bad at providing services - that's why he wanted public schools to be called "government schools" - but that it's good at writing checks. So why not cut checks to people so they can send their kids to school?

What about the good public schools? Well, the reason good public schools are good has nothing to do with government's special expertise and everything to do with the fact that parents care enough to ensure their kids get a good education. That wouldn't change if the government got out of the school business. What would change is that fewer kids would get left behind.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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No checks
Vouchers only. The money changes hands only when a live kid's butt lands in a classroom.

But yes, of course. Public schools today bear no resemblance to the public schools of 200 years ago, the ones whose mention causes the eruption of marching music. There's no reason why their pathology needs to continue on taxpayer life-support.

Count the real costs
I am intoxicated and this is my second try. Sorry for the double post if that happens....

Public School expenditures count money spent on education, but they exclude money for building the schools, capital improvements, and maintaining the facilities. That is a big exclusion.

The Buckeye Institute in Ohio reported a study that those exclude costs once factored in raise the price by 38%. That makes a 12k education into a 16.5k expenditure per pupil for the city of Cincinnati. And with 16.5k you could pay for any school in the city. The best high school in the region is St. Xavier, and they are still under 10k. I send my kids to private elementary for around 4500. My city pays close to 17k for ever pupil that they educate.

I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore. You need to report the real figures. They are staggering. I should be staggering. I am drinking rum straight from the bottle. But check out those capital exclusions please. They add a significant amount to the costs that you are reporting.

That is all that I have.

I remember my dad tell me 30 pupils MUST
be in a class for it to function. WHY?
Because less meant the teacher didn't eat every day...

When school administrators earn more than fire and police - there is something WRONG going on.

When "56 cents of every dollar" spent goes to administrators - something WRONG is going on.

When NEA and PTA and others hold more political clout than any other group in America - there is something WRONG.

Course, MY kids wouldn't go to public school... They are WAY to old... But I fear for my grandkids and yours.

What about the good public schools?
It is difficult to classify any schools in a market where a single provider has over 90% of the market as 'good'. Good compared with what? Mostly, it is good compared with other schools provided by the same organisation. "Better government schools" would be a more accurate phrase. It might be that some of these are genuinely good - but we have no way to tell. In international comparisons American schools do not perform terribly well. In maths - the only subject in which it is possible to make valid comparisons - the US is no more than middle-ranking among developed countries, despite spending more money. But, of course, these comparisons are with other government run schools.

Public Schools
There are several things that MUST happen before we can get public schools back on track.
>Curriculum in Schools of Education must be revamped. There is too much "touchy-feely" and "cut and paste" and too little solid subject matter.
>Textbooks must be re-written. American History is heavy on "multi-culturalism" and VERY light on facts. Civics is practically non-existent. Math needs to require basic knowledge and keep the remains of "New Math" and use of calculators for use only in higher level classrooms. Reading texts should return to the classics (so that students get the "feel" for good writing and grammar) instead of worrying about being "politically correct."
>Prospective teachers should be required to have one year ofclassroom experience as a "Tutor" or "Aide" before entering a school of education. (This would weed out those who do not belong in the classroom, instead of leaving them to quit within 3 years of being hired.)
>There should be NO US DEPT. of EDUCATION! This must go back to the states and local communities!
This is just a beginning. Parents and students MUST accept responsibility for their own behaviors. From this beginning, we CAN re-build our schools.

Wanted (needed): Conservative Educators
To truly remedy the ills of public education, more conservatives need to become teachers and administrators in public schools; but that will never happen.

Why do conservatives not apply in the numbers that liberals do? In part it is because they can't believe in and support the philosophy, policies and curricula of the public schools. However, a more important reason is that college-educated conservatives, especially conservative men who want to provide well for their families, know that they can do much better financially in other industries.

If for-profit or religious-affiliated schools were suddenly available everywhere, wouldn't they have hired from the same pool of educators that were attracted to public schools? Perhaps they would have found a few more conservative educators based on the program and product they were planning to deliver. However, conservative teachers, especially conservative men, would still be sparse because even private schools couldn't afford many of them.


Public Schools (addendum)
How could I have forgotten?

> GET RID OF THE LABOR UNIONS!!! If teachers are truly professionals - they don't need unions!

Parents>kids>schools
I actually went to a really good public school, rated the best school in the state, with a jaw-dropping list of alumni.

Why was it so good? Because it was a regional exam school - in other words, it was a collection of the smartest, highest-performing students in the city; the all-star team. Despite the public-school quality facilities and faculty, the students made the school good. When the teachers were lame, the students taught themselves.

No lie, here's this prestigious school - and I can recall at least four teachers who didn't even speak English fluently.

On the other hand, most public schools have the task of teaching problem children from broken homes with behavioral issues.

I mean, yes, it'd be nice if the teachers were good, and the policies were sane, and the education wasn't a waste of five-figure tax dollars per year - but, still, same as everything else, education is about parents and families, not schools.

Giver-ment k-12 indoctrination camps
The giver-ment education system has worked brilliantly. The purpose of giver-ment education as first stated by Plato was for the masses to be indoctrinated as compliant surfs to the giver-ment and ruling class. Only the ruling class were to be given critical thinking. Rulers throughout history have made the same argument for giver-ment education. I believe our giver-ment education has accomplished its goals well, in fact better than any other nation.


Granted some will claim there are excellent giver-ment skuls. But a better Marxist does not mean a better mind.

My advice to Mayor Fenty

What to do about DC public schools:

1. Sack everyone except the janitors.

2. Raze them to the ground.

3. Start again from scratch.

Deskjockey, precious!
Many years ago the communists decided that to defeat the US, it would require time to brainwash the masses and the best way to do that is to infiltrate the schools and the media. That is just what they have done and continue to do. Just because the Soviet Union imploded, doesn't mean that communism or its followers are all gone. Most have changed their name to "Progressives", but are just as communist in their thinking as before. We need another Senator McCarthy to expose and weed out the traitors in our midst.

Don't forget about homeschooling!!!!
Did you notice that several National Spelling Bee winners were homeschooled.

National Geography Bee winners, too...

Free markets work better
When you want to provide clothing, food, and housing to your children, do you prefer a) government monopolies such as those in the former USSR, or b) a competitive free market such as exists in the United States?

When the Soviets visited the United States, were they shocked and awed by a) the abundance and quality of goods and services provided on the free market, such as clothing, food, housing, and automobiles, or b) government-provided services such as the government schools?

If we were to shut down the government schools tomorrow, by September there would be a host of competing alternatives. Within a few years, practically every child would have a truly world-class education. Not every child is an Einstein, but practically every child can learn to read fluently, to be comfortable with everyday math, and to speak fluent English. Many homeschoolers and other parents who supplement their children's education either with after-school work or private schooling have already discovered this. It's time to unbind the remaining students and parents.




PC education, dumbing down
'Tracking' once broke down group within a grade level by - advanced, average, & ummm the challenged.
The teachers could concentrate on teaching the advanced & average students. The spec.ed. & challenged classes could concentrate on basic skills and discipline. Today a 3rd grade teacher must try to encourage a child capable of 6th grade work and try to control/change diapers/feed a 'special needs' child. Apparently the 'tracking' system caused irreparable harm to the tender egos of the 'challenged' (or at least the egos of their parents).
My 2nd grade grandson happens to be very good at math (not so with his other classes). His teacher is prohibited from teaching him beyond 4th grade math. There are similar limits in reading etc. The goal apparently is average out everyone.

Schools for the handicapped and discipline problems exist no longer.

Average and advanced students are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

AND parents are NOT participating/helping - schools have become baby sitters. Perhaps a system like 'jury duty' should be started - a few days per year of 'volunteer' work in schools, days that are excused by their employers.

NEA
Despite Congreses occasional foray to the top(the latest immigration Scam comes to mind) and the judiciary's stunning attempts to totally dominate the position,(Eminant Domain) the NEA remains the most destructive force in American Society today.

homeschooling
My brother, sisters and I were all homeschooled through grade and middle school, then attended public high school. My parents felt that this would give us the opportunity to interact with teachers we disagreed with, who were presenting viewpoints opposite to our own. Doing this in high school - when we could still come home in the afternoon and talk to Mom or Dad about the day's events - gave us a sneak peek at what the college environment would be like. To my parents, the education itself was important, but it was even more important to learn how to stand up for our beliefs and calmly and articulately explain our opinions.

And for those who believe homeschooling limits kids' opportunities in some way: all four of us excelled academically and in a variety or extra curricular activities - including a sister who was a star lacrosse player and another who was homecoming queen. None of us were "socially challenged" and all of us were ahead of our grade level in at least one subject.

There are other options for parents who are concerned about our current educational system. Perhaps if the demand for alternate methods such as homeshooling, charter schools, etc. continue to rise, the government will get the message.

Accountability and experience
There isn't any. Teachers as a group are lowest on SATs and the best (!) of those quit first. Get rid of teachers colleges and hire productive career people to teach the classes in small modules on a part-time basis, at least from the seventh grade up. Can the ones who couldn't do professionally what they teach. The education requirements for teachers is heavy on pedagogy and short on subject knowledge. A person with a PhD from Carnegie Tech who taught engineering students on the faculty there is considered unqualified to teach highschool math and science! He would have to take teaching classes and undergo student teaching to get certified.

How many art teachers give successful one-man shows?

How many music teachers play for the local symphony, string quartet, or have published classical CDs?

How many math and economics teachers work for insurance companies setting underwritng rates or work in bank loan offices?

How many science teachers are successful engineers in private practice?

How many biology teachers work for drug companies?

How many history teachers have published books or original papers, or even write for the local paper?

How many English teachers have published or edited anything of value?

How many drama teachers act with a successful local company?

How many shop teachers are successful cabinet makers or home remodelers?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Anybody else notice the increasing number of perverts? We have no child left behind competing with no child's behind left.



It all about jobs.
If we do away with public scholls, what will happen with all the liberal college educated teachers that become unemployed. This will have a ripple effect with community colleges and university employment eventually dropping as well.

The Federal Government knows that it is better to have full employment than to risk the riots and rebellion started by unemployable college graduates.

a note to Christopher in Cincinnati:
Moeller is better than St. Xavier.

A note to everyone else: If teachers and their unions really care about the kids, and money is the only solution to fix education, I propose that all union dues be paid directly to the schools. Problem solved!







I love Rich D.
"The education requirements for teachers is heavy on pedagogy and short on subject knowledge. A person with a PhD from Carnegie Tech who taught engineering students on the faculty there is considered unqualified to teach highschool math and science! He would have to take teaching classes and undergo student teaching to get certified."

While still in uniform I wrote software and taught database management and computer operations from the "circuit boards up." After retirement I worked for a "for profit" educational and certification company as an instructor, and side lined as a state supported community college instructor.

I have been instructing middle school and high school aged students in matters of their faith and faith formation for nearly 20 years. This was totally volunteering my time, for at most 80 hours a year of classroom time. But I have no PAID experience – so it does not count.

BUT... in a public high school or middle school setting; I can only be a "parent-volunteer."

I HAVE to sit through classes, like one on "classroom management" which actually was telling me I could proactive medicine without a license, because to pass, I had to be able to tell that 5 to 10-year old (boys mostly) that don’t want to sit still in class have ADHD!

One, I was attending the class to gain a “state certificate” to instruct older teenagers and young adults, which are closer to the “andragogy” model then that of the “pedagogy” model. There was not a whiff or hint of andragogy – even in the methods of the “state’s instructor to instruct us!!!

I quit in frustration. As have many others with “real world” experience. The “public schools” all want – community involvement, or so they say on TV in news stories and in print in the newspaper. But “go” and volunteer and NO ONE knows what to do with you.

The entire system is broken down, time to allow the private sector to do what it can.

the public disgrace

There is an elephant in the room... and no one wants to talk about it.

If enough parents really cared enough about their children... would we still have this mess?

So... where are the parents who care???

Yes, where are they?

And what is it going to take, for them to care... enough?


Government schools and NEA
The uselessness of today's government schools is compounded by the existence and influence of the NEA. Not only are they the largest liberal lobgy in the country, they are simultaneously union, regulatory agency, and curriculum/textbook nazis.
The schools should be privatized, but if we don't separate the union from the regulatory and licensing role of the NEA there won't be much improvement.

Hi Rich D!
Mega dittos on your 9:51 post!

My friend Gloria has a degree in math education. She is very brilliant. She hasn't been able to be hired in a decent school system, so she's been teaching in the Buffalo Public Schools (the lowest-rated school system in Western New York). Needless to say, her talent is being wasted.

I have been homeschooling my very bright and active 9-year-old son for 2 years. He would have been labeled a "problem child" if he were in public school.

People have asked me if I'm "qualified" to teach my son. First of all, I am his mother and have his best interests at heart. I know what he needs.

My degree is not in education, but...

I have a pharmacy degree, so I can teach math, science, communication, and computers.

I was raised in the church and follow Christ, so I can teach theology, religion, Bible, and ethics.

I am a pianist, so I can teach music.

I studied Spanish for 4 years, so I can teach Spanish and Latin. That also makes me qualifed to to teach English,grammar and writing.

I loved history and geography in school, so I can share my knowledge and learn new things, too.

I love to read, so I can share some great books.

My point is that ANY parent (degree or not) who has the desire and commitment CAN homeschool.



Massive waste of time!
By the time I was in the 6th grade I had figured out that public "education" is a massive waste of time. Continued observations over the subsequent half century lead me to the conclusion that I was not only correct, but far too limited in my condemnation of the "school" program.

Schools provide "baby sitting" service to young women, not education to children.

Schools teach conformity, liberalism, and obedience, not reading writing and arithmatic.

Literacy rates were HIGHER in the US before the invention of forced "education." Ben Franklin attended only very limited private schooling. George Washington attended only 2 years and those were surveying classes. Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer by apprenticing himself in a law office.

There are 3 classes of people confined by law in public institutions. 1. Convicted criminals. 2. the dangerously insane. and 3. Youth. Confining youth to state prisons is a massive waste of human resources and HURTS virtually every young person who attends. It is no surprise that we have occasional prison riots in high schools.

Public schools were deliberatly created a century ago for the purpose of teaching conformity and preventing political independence. They WERE NOT created to teach reading, writing, and arithmatic. They function to do what they were created for.

Public schools not only hurt every child who attnds, the government robs the people of uncounted $gajillions

The author is right. Public schools should be closed and torn down. Everything they do is wrong.







fellowAmerican
You raise a significant point here. I can tell you exactly why I decided very quickly against any foray into the public schools, as I was preparing to retire from the Navy.

Teachers' unions.

Having watched the teachers' unions support everything that is wrong with modern America throughout my entire life, and having known teachers who were frustrated and even intimidated by their unions (as well as learning of such things through the media) -- I want no part of it.

In California, union membership is mandatory for public school teachers. It's also mandatory for even the part-time faculty in the colleges run by the state education system. (I checked that out early on, as a possibility.)

The teachers' union uses its members' dues to oppose every ballot initiative and every piece of legislation I support, and to support all the ones I oppose. It is also responsible for the worst, most education-inhibiting initiatives in the schools themselves. Joining this union is just not an option for me.

I'm increasingly convinced that Americans will have to take their kids out of the public schools en masse to make any difference.

Rich D is right--Teaching as 2nd career
The old insult that went, “Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach” has an addendum. “Those who can’t teach, teach teachers.” I think Education Colleges are part of the problem. Teaching is my second career and I think having done something other than teach makes me a better teacher. I don’t know of any teacher who actually uses anything they learned in teacher training classes—except maybe how to decorate a bulletin board. I don’t think anyone should go straight from an Education College to teaching in a classroom. It’s like learning how to fly with a plane load of passengers—and your instructor pilot, if there is one, is in another airplane. Education College is just a hurdle to get over in order to get a teaching certificate. I think students would be better served if more people took up teaching as a second career.

No Child Left Behind
Never forget that the corrolary of "No Child Left Behind" is NO CHILD GETS AHEAD.

I have long believed that one could define what is wrong with American education with three letters and two words "NEA and social promotion" but now I have to add two more words "Teddy Kennedy".

Still Just Throwing Money Around?
I am a supporter of school choice, even though I suspect my own state legislature in Utah is likely botching their current effort. (But then what else is new?) The downside I can come up with is quality control. Essentially how do determine curricula, requirements for promotion, and so forth. I know that the 'government schools' have not really lived up to that. In the case of a competitive environment for running education, we could and should consider the ideas that putative school operators in meeting these needs. I just do not want to see elementary and secondary education run into problems that we have seen in proprietary higher education, where 'fly by night' training schools shut down after taking millions of dollars of federal student loan money. There may be elements to this I am not aware of and would be interested if more information is available on this. Just throwing money at a problem, whether the state or the private sector is her gets it, is not a solution without a real plan to succeed.

Isn't It Obvious
Why have public schools at all?

The Democratic Party.

They would lose teachers' union and government employee (Dept. of Education) contributions; more practicing teachers would be free-market believers (capitalism is evil, dontcha know); and children might actually receive an education, learn to think and better themselves - every Dem pol's nightmare.

Home Schooling
It's like anything else it works for some.

Beyond that, I want to know that those doing the schooling have some sort of competency.

As a hobby, I teach dog obedience. Considering the name that I use that's not a reach for most of you. I've taught dog obedience for a little over 30 years. I also teach search and rescue work.

First of all. Just because someone can do a specific task, doesn't mean that they can necessarily teach that same task.

More to the point, we've all seen people where we've come away with the thought that the government should require licenses to allow people to have kids.

Do you REALLY want those people teaching their own kids?

From a purely tax focused perspective, the school system in the US is screwed up tremendously in the US. We all need to try to get it fixed.

Do away with public schools? Nice point to start discussions. Reality? I want companies PROVING that they can take this task on and do it, before I totally junk what we're doing.

The risk is having a LOT of kids who don't get an adequate education, and then don't get a second chance.

Great Ideas Everyone
Now that I've read your comments, I think I have a better grasp of the 'quality control' problem. Parents-and indeed communities in general-should actually try to involve theirselves and help school children rather than just give up the mone and pray it works. With my younger siblings, including my now high school aged brother, I have tried to help them the best I can. In a couple of years when my niece starts school, I want to some degree to aid her too. As for teachers, we need more people who teach who CAN DO AND KNOW HOW TO DO what they speak of, rather then mediocre morons who can fake their way through an 'education college'. We have too many baby boomers retiring, and other leaving their careers, who would LOVE to take on second careers in teaching, but cannot because the government education-industrial complex has created a system that only insures mostly the morons and those who cannot 'hack it' in other fields become teachers. (I believe that we have excellent public school teachers still. No matter what system we have, they will remain and they become teachers anyway.) As for what Fernando said about 'jobs for unemployable college graduates', maybe without government schools they will have to do those so-called 'jobs Americans won't do'. That would at least solve part of our immigration problem.

DC Schools
Do not represent the Nation.

First off, DC government is a world onto itself, without ANY state or federal representation....and they elected a crackhead for a mayor...repeatedly.

If you think about it for a second, most of our armed forces when to public schools...so how can conservatives say, on the one hand, our military is not stupid and uneducated, and on the other, say public schools are lousy? If there was some consistancy in the Conservative platform I would at least find their arguements credible.

It is unconstitutional
for the government to support only the faith that is taught in public schools.

Liberal Destruction of America
Anything Liberals touch, they destroy. First of all, Teachers are the STUPIDEST people alive! I have worked in Support Services for a large school district for over 20 years. UNION rules dictate that any job openings must be offered to current employees first. On NUMEROUS occasions TEACHERS have threatened lawsuits through the union unless they were hired for jobs related to subjects they taught. The INCOMPETENCE displayed was MONUMENTAL! Can you fire them, NO! Again UNION RULES!

The ARROGANCE & PC-LIBERAL-RATIONALIZATIONS displayed by Liberal Educators is INFURIATING! My niece was repeatedly knocked down by a girl in her class, she told her teacher. The teacher said this girl came from a dysfunctional home, so my niece SHOULD GIVE HER A BREAK! My sister went to the school and told the teacher AND the principal either they do something or my sister was going to treat them to some knockdowns! They caved, but it never should have gone that far.

Check the reports on The Factor this week about Boulder High. I won’t spoil it; let’s just say it’s a TOWERING EXAMPLE of LIBERAL ARROGANCE!

naked pagan
Are you aware of how much training the Armed Forces provide their recruits and members?

Privatize
Why not privatize the k-12 system? School teachers would then have to compete for jobs (like the rest of us).

Private schools would have to provide superior education and results in order to compete in the private sector. Government schools are non-competative and therefore there is no reason for quality education. Teachers and administrators get paid the same amount whether or not their students get quality education.

The purpose of these high-paid administrators is to prevent law suits, not to provide an effective venue for educating our kids.


how to fix public schools

The one thing we can do is break the monopoly of the college education departments. They should all be closed.

Why? Simple. They aren't needed at all.

Don't think so? Then somebody please explain to me why you need a college degree to teach a kid to read or learn how to add and subtract?

Feds 'raus!
Get the federal government out of education! It has no business there. Eliminate the Department of Education!

Education belongs in the hands of local communities, and the several states, not the federal government.

Of course, the issue of education does not stand alone, but is merely one more symptom of the problem of the bloated federal government and bureaucracy. If we clove to the true meaning of federalism, and a strict constructionist view of the Constitution, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

Hillary delenda est.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS PROBLEMS
COMMENTS FROM A Special Education Teacher W/ 2 MASTERS DEGREE:
1. I feel sorry for the Regular Teachers as there is no way they can really teach. Reasons: Special Ed. students must be included, regardless (even though they are many years behind their peers) Most are 3 to 4 years behind in their academics) So regular teacher much aim her teaching for mid-to low. We are losing the bright students by not having a challenge.
2. All the "social & feel good" policies result in zero achievement. You are not allowed to post who achieved in any manner. Dumb. This is liberal - "do not want anyone to feel bad"..policy.
3. DISCIPLINE: REGARDLESS, this is the biggest *
problem & the most time wasted area of the classroom.
4. No accountability for parents! Parents say they do not have time to work with their children's assignments or just ignore requests.
5. In special Ed (& reg. class) students know and will tell you, "you cannot do anything about
"______" pick any area. Total disrespect to adults, (pick any manner you wish)
6. Out of control students, who prevent others from learning, & the schools do zero!
7. Returning homework.. forget it...parents do not care, always making excuses for their children.
8. Dreamland, multi-culture, no one is wrong,
promotion of students because of age, or parent refusal to retain, and/or cannot hold back sp.ed. students. All workshops required for teachers - worthless & dull.
9. In summary: Currently, the schools are run by the students & their often stated "rights".
10. Would I recommend anyone to enter the teaching field? NO
11. Do not try to apply commen sense to ANY area of Education. No money for classrooms (cannot even have my blackboard refinished - tried for 8 years) However, schools spend millions on "new
teaching programs/materials that you are REQUIRED
to use.
12. NO ASSISTANCE OR ANY KIND, PROVIDED FOR TEACHERS.
13. NO PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT IN LOW INCOME SCHOOLS. THEY CAN NEVER MAKE IT TO SCHOOL MEETINGS.
JUST A FEW LISTED PROBLEMS....
NOTE: SCHOOLS WANT "ROBOTS" FOR TEACHERS..
EVERYONE FOLLOW THE SAME PROGRAM.
SCHOOL DISTRICTS HAVE NO ACCOUNTABILTIY FOR THEIR SPENDING CHOICES.

What it's really about ...
1) Propaganda and containment.
2) The managed economy.

I am a public school teacher
It amazes me over and over again when SOME people comment on things they know nothing about. You hear talking points and accept them. You need to have an experience as a school teacher to know what really goes on.

1. Not all teachers are liberal and leftist. In some cases the curricula that we are REQUIRED to teach obviously has a liberal slant but there are many like myself who provide alternate views. Teachers, like most of America reflect the community they teach in. So in more conservative areas of the country, you'll have more conservative teachers.

2. Unions are a problem. Most of them don't really represent the interests of the teachers. They have an agenda and they attempt to indoctrinate teachers to that agenda. Generally the teachers don't know, unless they are ACTIVELY involved (attend union meetings) that the unions take a position on things like abortion etc and you are required to join the union or they take more money out of your pay check.

3. Teachers are not dumb. I will admit that if you are smart, while you are teaching, you learn more, if for no other reason than researching for your lessons.

4. Most of you probably went to public schools, even if it was because of lack of choice. The schools may not have been the greatest but I am sure they helped you learn something.

5. Lastly, you are neglicting the most important piece. You all love to bash (I agree with the opposition, not your expression of your opposition) the entitlement crowd (welfare recipients) but you are not making the connection between them and failing schools. I teach in an urban, poor performing school system. We are teachers, not magicians. Even the greatest private school can't make those who don't respect learning, learn. The entitlement crowd heavily populates failing school systems. LOOK IT UP. Systems that have high FARMS (free and reduced meals) and children on Social services(of some kind) are the worst performers in the country. They bring their entitlement mindset to education.

======they don't teach their children anything before they start school, no reading books, no trips to the zoo etc. Their philosophy is that they clothe them...we teach them. Many don't even spend time talking to their children.

======they don't attend conferences except if they think you wronged their child. Then they are ready to fight you.

======they don't help their children with homework, they don't do projects.

=======they don't come to the school unless you feed them or give them something

=======they teach their children that they don't have to respect authority in the school because we can't spank or hit them. So the children do whatever and there are no consequences because the parents support the child,no matter what.

We are caring for their children on our own with no support from them. You all can think that we aren't teaching them but the students that have GOOD PARENTAL SUPPORT EXCEL, even in the horrible government schools.

I once had a Korean student, a biracial student and a black in my second grade class of 24 students in a horrible inner city school. They consistently scored above their grade level on state tests. NO, WE DID NOT CHEAT. I'd like to think that I had something to do with it, but it was also because they had parents at home who cared about their success. You all are assuming that the majority of parents care about their children's education. That may be so in the suburbs, but in poor inner city and rural communities that is often not the case. When the parents do care, they have created situations that make it hard for their children to be successful (too many kids with no father so the mom might work all day and night {if she works} with no adult supervision for the children.

School choice is fine. Just wait until these folks come to put their kids, with their values, in your schools with your children and your values. You might not like school choice after all.

Read a book called a Framework for Understanding Povery by Ruby Payne. The new entitlement poverty mindset is very different from your standard middle class, middle America views.

God knows...
I meant to say a black student. Not a black. No I am not racist. Unless I am racist agains "my own people".

Oh.
I will admit that unions do make it difficult to release ineffective teachers once they are tenured, but principals can fired good teachers for no reason in their first three years.

System administrations are horrible because they do misspend money when they could be using it for important things.

Those are superintendent and board issues, not teacher issues.


on homeschooling
if you are surprised that your child
learns more being homeschooled than they
would going to school, I would have to ask
why? Of course they do. So would any
student who had a private tutor.

Homeschooling is in theory (assuming the
parent gives up work) the most expensive
form of education. Whether or not the
cost is worth it is for every parent to
decide.

Even if your child goes to school it is
your duty as a parent to "school them"
at home.

All Americans have a stake in the public
schools whether or not they have children
in them. If 88% of school age children
attend they are our future (cliche I know)
whether we like it or not.

private schools
My kids went to private school at a cost of appx $4,000 each. If the private sector can do it why can't public schools? The number of students in each class was between 30 to 35. No assistants and control was always maintained. The teachers were respected and the parents participated 100%. You should see report card night, even the grandparents go. Religion and sense of community was a hugh factor as well. But I do agree that parents need to "CARE" more about the future of the children. Parents can not depend on the government of public school system to take care of their kids.
As a matter of fact, many of the teachers in my kids school started out teaching in public schools and left because of 1) bureaucracy 2) parents 3) lack of respect from the students and parents who backed their kids.
How come these private school teachers can control a classroom of 35 kids and the public school teachers can't even handle 20...

politically correct?
I take the larger point Goldberg makes that kids
should know these things but I did not understand
this:
"And keep in mind, political correctness pretty much guarantees that Jim Crow and the civil rights movement are included in syllabi. Imagine how few kids can intelligently discuss Manifest Destiny or free silver."

What is politically correct about learning about
Civil Rights and Jim Crow. In a US survey course
shouldn't everybody learn this no matter what
your view. And Manifest Destiny and Populism /
gold standard/ free silver should be taught to.

How it gets taught might be politically correct
but that it gets taught sure shouldn't be.

Heather has a tremendous point
The student discipline problem is ENTIRELY the fault of the parents who don't instill discipline in their own children.

Unfortunately that category encompasses a larger and larger number of parents. There are parents who do instill discipline at home, and support the schools in trying to keep it in the classroom; but too many don't.

The basic point I would continue to make is that it is impossible to "fix" this problem by putting more money into the existing public school system. Hiring more administrators won't fix it, nor will paying teachers more, building "nicer" structures to have school in, or designing new non-academic programs for the school day.

The reason private schools succeed is that more parents (not all) present their children to private schools with a modicum of personal discipline.

I would, however, also say that parents seek out private schools for TWO benefits: not just the better discipline, but the better instruction.

Private school standards are also declining, on average, but not as fast as those of the public schools. Forget student tests from Kansas in 1890 -- I could write better English, and knew more history and geography, in FIFTH GRADE in 1970, than the high-school graduates accessed into the Navy, from all walks of life across America (including both public and private schools), during the last decade of my Navy career (retired 2004).

Even if discipline were excellent in the public schools, I am not convinced that today's attenuated curriculum, and the pessimistic theories about learning favored by the education establishment, are worth fostering with my tax dollars.

JMJ
Did you hear yourself? You prove that people are commenting about things they don't understand. You just said the SAME teachers that teach kids your LEFT public school because of the bureaucracy, parents, lack of respect from students. They you ask why teachers could not control public school students, did you ask the teachers at your children's school. Apparently they could not do it either.

Again THE PARENTS AND STUDENTS OF PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE DIFFERENT THAN LOWER CLASS PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS AND STUDENTS.

You care about things that they don't so your students will respect teachers and theirs won't. You will participate at the school and they won't. Education is an investment for you, it is babysitting for them.

What is so hard to understand about that? If you think it is so easy you try to do it. I am black and grew up in a lower middle class household/neighborhood as it was becoming poor and lower class. I thought that I could relate to the children and even I can't because the midset has changed.

consensus? Yes, no, maybe so.
"There's a consensus in America that every child should get an education, but as David Gelernter noted recently in the Weekly Standard, there's no such consensus that public schools need to do the educating."

First claim correct.
Second claim comes close to being a lie.

IF you don't like the law work to change it.
I believe all mandatory compulsory education laws
are at the state level. So if you feel as you do:
"Really, what would be so terrible about government mandating that every kid has to go to school, and providing subsidies and oversight when necessary, but then getting out of the way?"

You should be electing people who feel the
same way and will change the law.

The reason we have public schools is because
state governments created them. Were they
created by consensus? Probably not, but by
a majority of democratically elected officials
in republican governments. That is where
the laws will have to be overturned / changed.

FWIW, mho is that public schools are some of
the most democratic institutions in the USA

public vs. private
The most recent comparison between public vs.
private schools did not turn out the way the
author of the piece claims:

see the report comparing public and private performance here:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006461
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard...es/2006461.asp

see commentary on the report here:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=52

and here:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=42

Of course, the public schools are getting
comparable results for more cost.
But educating about 99% of sped students:
For some facts on public schools, see:
http://www.cep-dc.org/pubs/publiceducationprimer/
For a report on the good that public schools are doing
see: http://www.cep-dc.org/pubs/LatestGoodNews/

I am not in denial
There are huge problems in public schools but teachers are not at the top of that list. The reason that teachers are being paid more to do what you all think is less, is because no one wants to come to work everyday and be verbally, mentally and physically assaulted. Yes, it happens all the time in inner city schools. You have your property vandalized and stolen. You are not respected by parents or even the principal sometimes. The environmental conditions are deplorable.

You all might not believe it but it is not a cushy job and most of us teachers *gasp* actually care about our students. Often spending our own money because they don't have clean clothes, books, pencils, etc. The schools and the parents expect us to provide them.

Even Bill O'Reilly won't attack public school teachers because he taught for a while and knows what many of us have to deal with. Between parents and the bureaucracy, we are between a rock and a hard place.

eddie
Sure do. Depends on the program. Been to a couple of the courses myself.

Which does not undermind my point at all. How can it be said, on the one hand, that public schools suck and on the other, our enlisted soliders are well educated? The two statements
seem to opose eachother

Administrators
Our school just junked obsolete and new books -- books with the same short stories and poems as the new texts! The school is too small, and there is no place to store these books. Why not donate them to charity? Because the school district has a contract with a company to dispose of these books. I wonder who is receiving kickbacks.

At the moment many schools, especially those with a high illegal immigrant population, are zoned incorrectly and are overpopulated.

Too often teachers are slammed for students failing to complete assignments, or for failing tests! Thats right folks, teachers in California are written up by administration if a third of their class fails, regardless of absenteeism.

It is not the teachers, it is the politically correct administrators, who promote the unearned praise agenda -- what crap.

Heather and Sue
Thanks for your comments and your contribution. My daughter is a teacher in small, less affluent town. She and her husband paint her classroom and have fixed it up in other ways; buys supplies for kids and classroom; arranges for kids to get to do some outside activities--many of them have never been to a museum, concert, etc...She had three special needs children in her class this year. You all controlled all three branches of government since 2000 and no attempt made to do any of these things. People need to get involved and let the lawmakers know you care about what they do.





Heather
Bravo! I too teach in tough area, and most of my Hispanic students do not care if they graduate or not. They refuse to complete basic assignments, major projects, and ask "Why don't you learn Spanish?" "Because, I am an American, and my mother is British. I have zero connection with the Hispanic culture, and am interested in European culture. When my parents took me to France, they made me take a year of high school French to avoid being the ugly American."

I have students who must leave school and care for their eight siblings because their parents work. Many leave school and must work to help with the bills. Many parents have been in this country for ten plus years, and still do not speak English.


Home schooling for conservatives only
Here's my theory for making education better--conservatives should be forced to home school their kids. Hey, if public education is so appalling, then by all means, conservatives should put their money where their mouths are and home school their kids. There is, of course, a catch--conservatives must keep their precious offspring at home until they're 25 year old. That way they won't be contaminated by, perish the thought, those creepy public school tykes and their brainwashed teachers who only teach liberalism 101.

Conservatives anything with the word "public" in it, ever notice that? Why not go back to things that worked? Bring back the shop classes and the three tier diploma system (academic, commercial and general) in the high schools. Funny public school was once considered the great equalizer bringing everyone together. Have you ever noticed that the winners of the Intel Science awards, for example, are always from the public high schools? Can't imagine why. Public schools actually worked until conservatives started spoiling everything.

Make teaching a preferred profession
the recently released College Board Report called "Teachers and an Uncertain American Future" has
been heralded as the new Nation at Risk report:

http://www.collegeboard.com/press/releases/110755.html
see comments on the report here, many by yours truly:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=38


The main thrust of the report is that society,
government, has to make teaching a "preferred
profession" imho, it is what needs to be
done.

Dona261
That's the thing about liberals and conservatives. People hear their favorite writer, talk show host, etc say something and they roll with it.

K-12 teachers of all stripes are generally hard working caring people who want what is best for their students. If you spend time with us you would know. Many of us, like you said, spend our own money to do things that parents or the administration won't do, especially in urban or rural schools. Most of us stupid teachers also had to have at least 3.0 GPAs and pass multiple tests (easy and hard) to teach.

However, if you just look at sites like this you would think that all teachers are liberal cushy people who meet on the weekends to plot ways to indoctrinate our students. The unions might, the headquarters might but the teacher are at home (with our stupid selves) writing plans and buying supplies for our students.

Sue
Thank-you! Special Education students often do not belong in a regular classroom, and at times, hold the other forty students back.


oops, stupid me
I should have said "the teacherS (with an "s") are at home. That's what you get from those stupid teachers.

special education
I agree, that was PC at its best. As a teacher, there is no way for you to meet the needs of all of your regular ed students and your special ed students with various disabilities and meet the expected testing benchmarks too.

everyonesfacts?
"The reason we have public schools is because
state governments created them."

If you mean that's how they originated then yes. If you mean that's why they persist then no. Several states have attempted to pass vouchers or other privatization efforts. Terrified statists and teacher's unions have used courts to prevent them.

Had these efforts been left alone, it is very likely the entire nation would be migrating to school privatization now.

It isn't just the academics but the values and parental control.

I've seen the stats suggesting parity between public and private schools... all they demonstrate is that if you play with the numbers enough you can make them say what you want.

The only relevant statistic that needs to be shown is that parents should be 100% responsible and 100% in control of the education their OWN child gets.

the public school disgrace

Dogjudge writes; (on the subject of doing away with public schools) "The risk is having a LOT of kids who don't get an adequate education, and then don't get another chance."

My answer; An absurd and a ridiculous apology for a truly broken system. Good grief, man... what do you think is happening to our kids right now???

To Sue... thank you for your service and for showing us what is only the tip of the iceberg.
Maybe we should give your post as a handout to parents on visiting day.

Maybe we should also post a sign above every public school entrance in America, "Caution. School unions are hazardous to your children's welfare."

To Dyerje; Discipline is the responsibility of BOTH the school and the parents. Anything else... are just pathetic excuses.

These are our kids and our grandkids, people.

sjt18
Created = originated.

Our legal system (courts) is part of the
democratic process.

Although what you suggest would change the
system a little. I am saying that one could
annul public education altogether in a state
through an amendment to the state constitution.
Much more radical!

"The only relevant statistic that needs to be shown is that parents should be 100% responsible and 100% in control of the education their OWN child gets."

That is homeschooling which I am for.
Actually I am for all types of education - public, private, alternative public or private, etc.

Scott
Of all the things said all you got was that unions are hazardous?

Tell me how schools can discipline students whose parents contradict that discipline and all the school can do is suspend them? Suspension means nothing to parents whose students are discipline problems.

I can make rules all I want. If the rules are not re-enforced at home then what good do they do at schools?

Heather
You obviouly came from a public school, please check your spelling. The teachers left the public school system because 1. They didn't receive support from the administration in order to discipline the students and 2. Because, yes the parents of private school "DO" respect the teachers and expect their children to learn and respect the teachers. If the parents don't discipline the kids and the administration feels the child is disruptive, they get expelled. They don't have to put up with dumb a$$ parents who would rather side with their unruly child than have their child learn in a conducive environment. Parents of private school children expect their chil to behave and learn...

scottK
It doesn't excuse the schools to observe that original discipline from home is indispensable.

While I would agree with you if you said that schools need to require better discipline than they are inclined to today -- independently of the environment from which students come -- it still remains the case that numerous parents actively work AGAINST discipline in the classroom.

Heather recounts the experience of a huge number of teachers: having to deal with uncivilized savages every year whose parents, instead of helping to promote an orderly learning environment, protest when their kids are required to behave.

Modern educational refinements like putting 7-year-olds around tables, facing each other, instead of sitting in single desks all facing the front, also actively hinder the maintenance of classroom order. My kindergarten teacher mother was 100% right in her prediction about that trend, back in the 1970s when it began seeping into the schools.

But that's not the fundamental problem with classroom order. The fundamental problem is too many children who've never been required to cultivate an "attention span" for any purpose, and who haven't been taught, in no uncertain terms, that mom, dad, and the teacher ARE TOO the boss of them. These children are abetted in their view of who's the boss by parents who storm the school, demanding redress, when their children are told not to do things that are disruptive and counterproductive. These parents defend their children from all attempts at discipline, rather than cooperating and reinforcing them.

I should note that my perspective on this is from my mother (who retired a few years ago), my cousin, who teaches second grade in a (public) language immersion school in Tulsa, and my sister-in-law, who used to teach fifth grade and now homeschools her five children. My mother spent some of her years in schools with poorer, lower-performing students, but for the most part, their observations about discipline and parental attitudes come from the schools attended by the middle class.

Even the comparatively draconian classroom discipline that prevailed during my school years would not be able to cope with the utter indiscipline of more and more students. The problem for parents who DO discipline their kids is largely the growing number of parents who DON'T -- and whose kids occupy the same classrooms in which more motivated and involved parents hope their children will be educated.

There is obviously not an option here of pro-discipline parents "doing" anything to make no-discipline parents toe the line. Hence the exodus to private schools and homeschooling.

Again, however, we can't fix this problem by spending more money on public school infrastructure. It's impossible to address it that way. The feel-good hand-wave of taxing everything that moves "for education" has got to stop.

Heather, thank you for caring
and trying your best in a bad situation. But your admonishment to those of us that "attended public schools" and seemed to have learned enough is foolish at best. When most of the posters here at TH went to public school, it was a local jurisdiction that the Feds had not yet gotten total control of. Some schools were therefore good and some were bad. Once the Feds got their grubby little hands on the mess the same thing happened to schools that the libdolts want to happen to everything and everyone, it tried to make everything equal and "fair" and that simply dumbed down every school to the lowest common denominator.

My experience as a child was grade school in Michigan and Massachusetts and it was hard work to get a B average. Then I moved to Virginia in 7th grade and what they were teaching, I had in the 4th and 5th grade already. It was easy to get straight A's and I learned a bad lesson, that I did not have to work very hard to get good grades. A co-worker asked if I would have been better off if I had stayed in MA, and of course my answer was yes, but not for the reason he assumed. I figure it would have been better for me to have to work hard for success, but that I would not be much better off than those that attended in VA for their entire schooling. It was the change to an easier school that was not good for me, not that the "easier school" did not eventually get most students to the same point at the end. This was before I student taught in NC and decided that baby-sitting was not for me as "mainstreaming", as they called it then had just taken hold and most of the students that I taught had no motivation to due homework or even copy what I wrote on the blackboard.

Needless to say, I choose another career path than teaching in public schools.

No vouchers
My concern with vouchers is that liberals will ensure that they come with conditions that pretty much disclude schools that don't behave like their model... which is the one followed by the public schools now. They'll insist that "gov't" money can't go to religious schools.

They'll tie alot of liberal socialization to the vouchers as well- teaching children the "correct" view of the world.

I think a better solution is allowing a tax credit up to a certain amount... perhaps even attaching it to the child tax credit for incentive. This would dove tail with the "Fair Tax" as well.

Privitize Schools!
Turn education over to the private sector. The state does not pave roads, the private sector bids for those jobs.

Can you imagine what the private sector could do with the amount of money the state wastes every year? 10-12K per kid in my state. Private schools do it for 1/3 to 1/2 that amt. A few years ago they tested all the high school kids in my city (Portland OR). To pass, 40% of the kids had to meet benchmarks. Not one school passed! Not even the affluent schools. When I was in school 40% was a failing grade and not even one school made that.

Apply the same standards as for homeschoolers. Kids have to show improvement every year. If the school fails they lose their money. It is clear money does not create success.

I homeschooled my son 1-4 grade. When they tested him before starting school he was in the very high category for reading and the high end of high for math. After being in school a year he dropped a notch in both. I was a low key homeschooler. When he started middle school, after a year I had to start teaching math to him myself. I knew what a good math curriculum looked like and the school was doing a miserable job and he was getting low grades. When he was tested for entrance to a private high school they wanted to put him in honors math. He isn't even good in math! It was just the result of moderate effort with a good math program (Saxon math ROCKS).

I know what it takes to create success and it isn't much. What I observed is that the schools were more interested in indocrinating my kid into PC thinking than teaching the basics of reading and arithmetic. Parents don't get to go to school with their kids and there is no reason schools can not establish order. I knew it would be bad when my son did go to public school, but I was shocked how bad it was. Having rules and enforcing them does not cost money. The trouble is most of the teachers did not have standards themselves.

Bid for contracts, if you don't deliver you lose your money. This would break the stranglehold the NEA has over our kids and their indoctrination. (which is why they become apoplectic when you mention privitizing school)

Can you imagine the choice there would be? There could be schools with all different kinds of focus. It would create competition and opportunity for all kids. Market forces always work.

Unfortunately I doubt there is much hope. They are determined like Stalin/Hitler to program our kids. It's sickening.

Oh
before anyone jumps off the deep end. I don't want Dr Dobson or other statist minded social conservatives placing controls and restrictions on schools either. I don't want what the schools teach to become "democratic" at all.

Why Have Public Schools?
Why have free public education? As every one of our colonies became a state, it ratified free public education so that the populace would be able to read the Bible. No kidding. "Bible literacy" was the reason. I learned this in a college American History class. So you conservatives who think that public education was invented by the Communists, surprise. Look this up if you don't believe me.

You go Anna.
Privatize all government schools. Competition will improve education.

Heather

I do sympathize with your frustration.

But when you get a chance, take the time and read the story about a fellow black teacher named Marva Collins and the Chicago West Side Preparatory School that she founded some years ago.

What she accomplished with some tough, misdirected and disadvantaged kids should be required reading for every person in America who wants to enter the teaching profession.

And thank you, Heather... for your service.

bs artist, are you a
satirist? CONSERVATIVES ruined the public schools?!!! How old are you, like 12?
Liberals have been running things there for about 40 years now.
Suspiciously lining up with the demise of public education.

I can't believe what earns you an "A" today in middle school. Horrible grammar, punctuation and spelling are commonplace. Makes me wonder, what ARE they grading.......
Having been blessed to receive a Parochial education from 1-12 like my 6 siblings, I know this stuff would have been deemed unacceptable in my day at our school, there was a much higher standard.

To aspasia: Mainstreaming and Me
I was a full-time classroom teacher (high school English, not Special Education) when Public Law 90-142 (mainstreaming) was passed in 1975 and so learned to include special students in my teaching. I lacked any special training in how to do this as my preparation was in my subject field. So, I took additional coursework to learn something about what I was asked to do, in the hope of doing it well. Personally I found that having kids who were blind, deaf, orthopedically handicapped, and mentally ill in my classes was a rewarding challenge. We had backup from Special Ed teachers who came into assist us.

I think the reaction of both "ordinary" and mainstreamed students was mixed. Most regular teachers hated mainstreaming. Either they were unwilling to make special accommodations, changing their methods, which if done effectively was certainly time-consuming, or they resented the "intrusion" of Special Ed teachers into what had previously been their private domain. Personally I found these kids so interesting that I soon left teaching altogether and went back to school for additional degrees so I could better work with that population, although not as a teacher. In my experience, Special Ed teachers also preferred self-contained classrooms. Since this was equally true of "normal" class teachers, I think we can conclude that what makes teaching (in the case of high school teachers, at least 150 students per day) possible without going crazy is having control over your own work; a teacher's life is largely planning, preparation, and crowd control, and sometimes this is most easily done solo.

A huge benefit can accrue to "normal" students if their experience can be broadened by contacts they never had seen before. I guess the most basic comment I can make about mainstreaming is that, done well, it is a HUGE amount of work for the teacher, who must individualize a number of lesson plans in addition to preparing for the larger group of students. (As one example, when teaching a novel when I had a blind boy in my class I read every chapter into a tape recorder for him and also read every chapter of another book he liked better as he had many emotional issues and was more willing to "read" the assigned book if he also received the reward of the preferred book, all fed out to him chapter by chapter by me, and he was one of my 150 daily charges.) So I don't much appreciate the many comments to this thread about the laziness and stupidity of teachers. I bet nobody making those posts has ever lived in a house with a working teacher.

Was mainstreaming helpful to students (which, after all, was supposed to be the point of it)? I don't know. By the time that was evaluated, I had left teaching.

But what I hope we are not now hearing is "keep THOSE KIDS away from MY KID". It doesn't hurt kids to be humanized a bit, and having eyeball-to-eyeball contact with one less fortunate can be an education in itself.

No Kidding?!!
Bible literacy? I guess that is as bad as having the 10 Commandments posted in a class room. "Where a child can see them and might be influenced by them" That would be really scary. Thou shall not lie, Thou shall not steal, Thou shall not kill, etc. It would truly be terrible for society if our kids ever got a load of that. Things are going so well since we got rid of god's moral law.

SJT 18- the point is competition. Then you have fruit and flower environmental schools (if that is what you want), there are art magnet schools, you have trade schools, you have conservative schools, you have very rigorous acedemic schools, etc.

The one commone denometer is they all have to meet basic benchmarks, determined by testing. You don't produce, you lose your money. Schools have to compete and be BETTER in order to get money.

Just wait till the dems try to foist national health care on us. Going to the dr. will be like going to DMV or the post office. Gov does not produce anything more efficiently or better. Let market forces take over. Give the underpriveledged a real chance. Competition will improve education!


Evidence presented
dogjudge writes: Wednesday, June, 13, 2007 11:31 AM

"Do away with public schools? Nice point to start discussions. Reality? I want companies PROVING that they can take this task on and do it, before I totally junk what we're doing."

I present to you the thousands of private schools and colleges whose graduates perform.

In the fall of 2003, there were 28,384 private schools in the United States, enrolling 5,122,772 students, and employing 425,238 FTE teachers. Private school students represented approximately 10 percent of the total elementary and secondary enrollment in the United States in 2003-2004.

You can research the number of private colleges and trade schools yourself.

------------------

Regarding home schooling - have your kids circulate through the neighborhood for various subjects if you don't think that you are qualified, or apprentice them for short periods.

How did we get to professional educators and mass instruction?

What business of the state is it to set standards instead of letting the market place do that? If ALL governments got out of the education business, do you really think that opportunity and quality would go down?

Remember the human genome project? A private company clobbered the government-supported researchers.

At the university level, engineering companies should support directly with money and instructors the courses they need to get the employees they need. Same with the other disciplines. Government research money (your stolen tax dollars) often goes to worthless projects proposed by ivory-tower tenured (don't get me started) dreamers.

When you see Intel sponsor a lab at an American university, it's because they aren't getting what they need. When you see Intel building a plant in India, it's because the workforce is better there. Don't buy this company-sponsored research is biased or impure research baloney. Why shouldn't they direct your research and teaching? It's their money and they know their business.

The other college improvement is to divorce teachers from researchers. I was there.

So what about the "soft" disciplines? Those should be over with and done before technical college and trade schools.




To deskjockey
You want the curriculum to center on critical thinking and another poster wants it more weighted toward memorization of facts. Actually, there is great emphasis on "what is your opinion" so that many Americans grow up thinking that their opinion is just as good as any fact. I don't know whether this was planned purposefully. But I love the story about the kindergarten class that wanted to know the sex of its pet hamster, so, to find out, they held a vote. This is a darling story about five year-olds but, read townhall posts carefully and you will find the same mindset. Posters say stuff like "My own personal opinion is that homosexuality is immoral (which makes it a fact) so let's hold a vote and the majority will be made into the law of the land".

Yea Heather
I taught in a public senior high school for ten years---an upper middle-class suburb that was becoming more blue-collar and more multicultural. In the ten years I taught we went from 1% black to 10% black and absorbed scads of immigrants, mostly Southeast Asian (this was the 1970's) and we also took kids from the nearby Yeshiva which went only through 9th grade. And, forgive me for stereotyping here, but I have said many times that the day they let me choose my students I will take all the Asian kids and all the Orthodox Jewish kids and gladly return to teaching.

I realize there are some who will say that cedrtain minority kids do well because of preferential treatment. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. I had Chinese kids who STOOD UP when I entered the room while American kids regularly said F* You to me and called me a B****. I had Vietnamese kids who came here knowing zero English and three years later were doing honors work. And every time the state math competition winners were read over the PA, the names were Asian. Every time. And I ALWAYS had post-Yeshiva kids wearing yarmulkas who BEGGED me for extra work, extra reading assignments, extra vocabulary lists, extra everything. (No, they weren't the kids of recent immigrants, just more distant immigrants, but they had the same drive to learn and they respected their teachers. I doubt that they heard dinner table conversation at home about what fools teachers are.)

Some cultures go for academic work. Their parents insist on it. They kids are bred to it. Unfortunately, blue-color America is not one of these cultures in my experience and richer white America isn't always so hot either. I have had upper middle-class white parents say to me that the purpose of high school was for kids to have a good time. I never heard an Asian parent say that. I never heard an Orthodox Jewish parent say that.

Now cut to the next scene of this drama. That was 1977 and now it's 2007 and I am a retired old lady. During the past month I had my husband in the hospital three times including time on a couple of ICUs and for surgery. What impressed me was that fully half of the young doctors were dark-skinned Indians, Southeast Asians, Chinese, or Middle-Eastern---but they didn't have foreign accents and spoke perfect American English. In conversation they would reveal that they were born here. These are the kids and grandkids of those immigrants who pushed their children to take advantage of our public education system. Now they are doctors.

There's a lesson here for us plain old WASP Americans. Maybe if parents would put less emphasis on proms and cheerleading and pom squad and gymnastics and giving kids their own cars to hell around town in and letting them take BS jobs that use up their time flipping hamburgers when they should be studying and would lean on their kids more, they would get better results.

public education
The trouble with public education, birth control. Laugh if you wish, but this is one of the reasons, perhaps THE reason, we have problems. Bright parents with bright kids, for the main part, are limiting their families to one or two kids, the dum-dums are having six or seven kids, usually illegitimate, and rely on the government to educate them. Each year the ratio of bright kids to dumb kids increases in favor of the dumb, no possible amount of financial aid will help this situation. Caring, bright, loving parents (this includes a mother AND a father) are the backbone of education.

Dogjudge
Dogjudge wrote: "First of all. Just because someone can do a specific task, doesn't mean that they can necessarily teach that same task.

"More to the point, we've all seen people where we've come away with the thought that the government should require licenses to allow people to have kids.

"Do you REALLY want those people teaching their own kids?"

To which I have to point out - some of those people who make you think the government should require licenses to allow people to have kids ARE TEACHERS. Do you really want them teaching your kids??

P.S.
Here is a good article by an economist on how market forces would work on the school system.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56138

Lily, you say that someone's "personal opinion" is that homosexuality is immoral so that "makes it a fact"... If your OPINION is the opposite does that make it a fact? For those of us who consider homosexuality to be morally wrong it is not our opinion. I trust the one who had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again. "Christ is the seal of God's revealed truth, the finality of all that the Father has spoken. Beyond Him, God has nothing more to say to man." It doesn't play well to say there is absolute truth in a world that now says we create our own reality and truth is relative. God (the real one, not the one people create in their own image) will have the last word. If he says something is an abomination it is. NAMBLA marches in gay pride parades, how does that work for you?

It's the family,
that is why Asian children succeed at the rate that they do. The WHOLE family is involved, and expects nothing less than excellence. There is discipline and structure, and abundant respect for elders and authority.

Quite remarkable, I think.

The basic reason we have
public schools is this which has been "copied" from my State Constitution.

The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance and support of a system of free public schools open to all children in the State and shall establish, organize and support such other public institutions of learning, as may be desirable.

In order to "fix" the schools we would have to get the government and the unions out of the schools. To do that the State Constitutions will have to be changed. I assume that every State has a similar statement in their Constitutions.

don't need to change constitution
One of the FEW other things the state is required to do is provide and maintain roads. The gov. doesn't do the work. It is contracted out to private companies. The co. that does the best work for the best price (aside from bribes) get's the job.

Same concept would work for schools.

I posted this
in another thread going on right now. Its appropriate for this one as well.

Please Please
let parents teach on their own. Let's do away with public schools and lets do the voucher thing. Right now i have only homeschooling to turn to, id love to be able to choose the place my daughter will attend school. I could visit each one, look at their curriculum and meet the teachers. I would even be willing to pay a little on top of what a federal voucher would pay. There would not be any worries about some diversity counselor coming in behind my back and teaching my daughter the opposite of what i taught her, and telling her not to tell me. There would be standards, actual standards required for graduation. They hold your hand and walk you through it right now. Kids could actually learn to read and comprehend what they read. They could even... ENJOY it! Troublemakers could be expelled and their parents held ....accountable!! (Now there is a dirty word these days) No more teaching my child what to think or when to think, she would learn HOW TO THINK. Feels like Deja vu, like..how America used to be?

Very simple
The insistance on diversity at all costs has ruined our schools.

Another reason to dismantle

Hey Goldberg
Goldberg says"Really, what would be so terrible about government mandating that every kid has to go to school, and providing subsidies and oversight when necessary, but then getting out of the way?"

First, government does mandate, in our district, about 570 pages of mandate. That is more than one page of mandate per child in the government and one private school. Enough with mandate.

Second, which "government". School belong to the towns that own them. Butt out, Feds. Butt out State. Let us handle it our selves and we will be as good as the private schools.

Third, no level of government above the Local will write a check without strings attached. So that is more "mandates". That is why so many private school, especially church operated schools, do not want vouchers.

Goldberg says: "What about the good public schools?"

What is a good public school. OXYMORON, that's what. Can't happen. Forget it. Case closed.

Homeschooling: A dangerous trend
My contact with homeschoolers it bad. Most had a big run-in with their school over disciplining their child or 7:55 comes too early. Bad reasons for leaving to go to homeschool. I have tested several and they seem to come in about 1.5 grades behind. May work for some but watch out!

no bs artist
Public schools and schools in general would close if conservatives left. Things would be so PC and poorly thought out that even the NEA could not organize it. The unionized teachers would have no one left to make them think, so their already jellied brains would solidify into the rocks that seem to be into your head. Sounds like a little bit of Heaven to me.

Just to Add to the Discussion
I am a homeschooling mother. I understand where people might be skeptical of homeschooling and as Hammer suggested some, I don't know what percent, do it for the wrong reason. But if the parents are earnest in their endeavor to educate their children it is possible to give them the very best of educations. After all who has more of a vested interest in their education? Some have suggested that I am not qualified because I lack 'training.' I usually do not tell them that I am a state certified teacher-though I do not keep it current. Frankly, and an honest teacher will admit this, any simpleton can get a teaching degree if they are willing to spend the time and money and jump through the seemingly pointless hoops.

Lily made a comment about free public educations beginning during the colonial period for the purpose of teaching Bible literacy. She is right about this, but there was a major turning point in the mid-nineteenth century. An article by John Taylor Gatto, a former New York City Public Schools Teacher of the Year, explains that shift in an article called The Public School Nightmare linked below if anyone is so inclined to read it. I cannot endorse the site however, where I originally read it is no longer available.
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Educate/public_school_nightmare.htm

ElizabethBennet
I live in an area that keeps pretty well to its own. You speak of a high dgree of education. That is surely needed in homeschooling. Even the best of curricula cannot take the place of good teaching. Unfortunately a significant number of homeschoolers in my area have wrong motive, as previously stated, or insufficient training to teach their own children. But I am not sure that govt testing or mandates for educational level are the answer. Certainly for social development children need to be in a dschool enviornment. and here again, that rules out any public school. In all too many of our tax funded schools, terror is the order of the day. I personally know a student who has been forced to wet herself because the gangs own tHe restrooms. AND THE SCHOOLBOARD IS POWERLESS TO STOP IT. I say, "Close 'em down." Privatize. Forget govt monies. Refund the taxes.

Hammer
It really is a difficult situation. I am convinced if more parents would take responsibility for their own child's education things would improve whether they are homeschooling or sending their child to a private or even a public school. By responsibility, I mean if a child graduates from high school and cannot read I believe it is the parents who are the most culpable. Why did they not realize their child was struggling and do something about it? I can delegate the task but I cannot abdicate the responsiblity. Unfortunately, like so many other things, we feel it is the government's responsibility and the kids are suffering for it.

Another challenge in public schooling, besides the outright danger you have mentioned, is the idea that everyone has a right to an education. But how can you force someone to be educated against their will? Maybe everyone should have an opportunity for an education but not a right. In my opinion, if someone refuses to avail himself of the opportunity and is only a disruption or a danger to other students, he needs to go.

Not a wish
Another pervert hit the news late today after I mentioned their increasing frequency this morning. I wasn't wishing.

Free?
Vic writes: Wednesday, June, 13, 2007 5:59 PM

"...from my State Constitution."

"The General Assembly shall provide for the maintenance and support of a system of free public schools..."

Un huh. No tax money involved. Like free health care.

Why do home and private schoolers still pay school taxes?


ElizabethBennet
Two threads have permeated this set of posts.

First is the concept of family. As they say, "They ain't none." I am intimately familiar with a church-run school. Most of the families feel they are doing the "best they can" in education their children. They are paying sizable tuitions, purchasing curricula, books, uniforms... But after all the bills are paid, "They ain't no family" left. Mom and dad both work, the children are bonded to strangers and caregivers, and on and on. The parents are products of both types of education, public and private. And yet both buy into the idea that they can have careers and family at the same time. That never works for the mother, ever! I have watched these and many other children in similar circumstances and it cannot work. The children always suffer, emotionally and in education. Families have to be at home, not out working or in surrigate "homes".

Second is this "right" to an education. I have contended for nearly 20 years, that formal education through third grade should be done at home. The Govt is the outfit that says, "Get 'em out of the home as early as possible." (Hilliary garbage about come villiage.) Think about it, what did you really learn bafore 4th grade that you parents could not have taught you? And a "right"? Where does that fit into LIFE, LIBERTY, PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS? No where that I can see. We call too much "rights" these days. And, BTW, parents pay heavily in taxes for that right. As you say, any proper parent will see the need for the children to be educated. But how far and in what subject areas should be a matter of selection. Not all kids NEED algebra (or college for that matter), but we are coming to the point that all children will have the RIGHT to a college diploma too, just like high school. It is all baloney. Someone makes a good point that we should go back to the three diplomas. I have a B-I-L who was vocationally trained in his "high school" and is doing very well, thank you. We have got to dump this "rights" junk. Then privatization will work, just like the restaurants in Goldberg's piece.

Rich D.
Bravo on the "still pay taxes". But see my previous post on strings attached. The private aNd church-run schools would love the tax money, but they won't get it without a string; i.e. CONTROL.

No Problem Homeschooling
Hammer,

Homeschooling is evolving rapidly. Growing numbers of parents are no longer cowed by the old "socialization" argument. Resources are improving and parents are organizing cooperatives for their children to meet other homeschooled kids. As I posted to Lilly, many of these coops are secular in nature.

My daughter hasn't been formally tested by education professionals, but she reads at a second grade level books and she's not quite five. So I guess that puts her about 2.5 grades ahead, right?

Privatization or Home Schooling
should be the only alternatives. Schools will become just like colleges. Unruly students will be simply refused "service" by the Corporate School just as it would be with any business encountering unruly clientele. Public Schools have become nothing but a glorified federal babysitting and daycare program thrust upon the taxpayers. They are also indoctrination camps for future dumbed down Democratic Party voters. Later, colleges provide further indoctrination and brainwashing in radical Socialist philosophy and radical anti-Americanism. Colleges also teach future Liberals that frededom of speech suppression and a sudden pie in the face are the responsible ways to debate political opponents. Yes, our public schools and public universities are doing a fine job of advancing the Liberal agenda at the expense of the American taxpayer. This is criminal that one political party gets unfair taxpayer support to indoctrinate future voters to its cause. Imagine what the MSM and the Democratic Party would do if the GOP educated and indoctrinated THEIR children on THEIR taxpaying dole!!! WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE IN THE GOP??? Instead, we get silence! Once again, these idiots have not figured out how to frame the issue. The Liberals to their credit are masters at "framing" the issue.

Accountability
I retired today from 37 years of public school teaching. I have always been passionate about my field and have a double major in history and geography and a masters in American History. I have always gotten along well with the vast majority of my students and discipline problems are not much different from when I began in 1970. What has changed is student attitudes toward working to learn. I teach eighth grade American History. In my district no student can ever be retained unless the parents agree, up to ninth grade. Because of this fact I have had 60% of my students in the last two years who had no interest in doing much of anything except hanging out with their friends. They have no work ethic at all. We constantly chase them around, with very little parent support, to do their work. Many students have huge holes in their education because they have been doing little since third grade because they know they don't have to. Their parents will never let them be retained. This year our high school graduated a senior class that began with 255 students four years ago and ended with 152. The freshman class has 40% who will be sophomores, 40% who are repeating as freshmen, and 20% who have already dropped out. Today student accountability is nonexistent. I got tired of turning out kids who are horribly prepared for life and am leaving. Private schools do so much better because they have parent involvement and they don't have to accept kids who will not work. Paul Kennedy wrote "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" some years ago. He began by looking at the great powers in 1500 and explained that they had all declined because of self-inflicted injuries they had brought on themselves. I fear that that is what is happening in America today. Oh, by the way, I am a liberal.

Heather
You point out the sometimes impossibility of educating children who endure a bad home life. Surely most of us are aware of this pathetic problem.

While Bush's rhetoric of "No Child Left Behind" might sound great to some, it's nothing more than a good line and wishful thinking.

What's the solution, if there could possibly be one? Enact a law which requires negligent parents (which they are!) to enter rehab or counseling? That is, both parents, whether or not they are married to each other.

Kids shouldn't be victims of such abuse and their parents should be held accountable.

Marie
Your description of a teacher (may you?) who must satisfy the needs of an advanced 3rd grader (capable of 6th grade work) and also has the task of changing the diapers and feeding a special needs child.

Like WHAT!

This is the first time I've heard that any teacher has the job of feeding and changing a student. My "unpolitical" opiniion is: "That's insane".


Hammer
"Nothing new under the sun."

Way back in the 50s, one of my Catholic high school nuns said that if the government financially supported their schools, they would then control them.

Catholic schools in my archdiocese, for one, charged no tuition in those days, unlike the present.

While we put out what to us amounted to big bucks to send our children to Catholic High School, grade schools did not charge tuition.


Hammer
For clarity:

"...if the government supported their schools, IT would then control them."

An old university system
You showed up for class. At the end of the class, the students paid the instructor if the lecture was good. If not, they didn't pay and he didn't eat. You also didn't show up again if it wasn't good enough.

If this seems harsh, substitute restaurant, diners, cook, and meal.

Answers to topics
alopekos teumesios: Maybe you are the exception to the rule. Yes, homeschooling is evolving; but if it evolves ito large groups (say 310 as in my S-I-L's HS group) who organize field trips and ball leagues, why not open a school??! And even with all of that, her kids are rather backward socially.

ken: Congratulations on your career. It is true that you are a liberal, because you offer statistics without solutions. I hope with your experience, you are back in the system trying to fix it. Is there a solution to the disintegration of the family? I have one, but no one likes it.

harmony: I attended Catholic schools, non-parochial, from 7th to 12th grade. And guess what: THEY WERE STATE ACCREDITED AND LICENSED!!!!! tHAT IS THE TIGHTEST FORM OF CONTROL, EVEN MORE THAN MONEY! So they have been controlled for decades.

ken
One more question: did you pay your union dues and carry your card as you taught the liberal agenda? You may have been part of the problem.

a few thoughts
You can rant all you want about parents needing to take responsibility. While it's true, it does nothing to address the problem, because those parents will always be with us.

In my view, the ones who won't let Little Johnny say "Yes Ma'am" to the principal (because it's demeaning to him) are more guilty than the ones who pay no attention at all. The ones who are so worried about Little Susie's self esteem that they demand everyone in the class must get an award are more guilty that the ones who don't bother to show up for teacher conferences.

Parents used to be able to send their kids to school with the assumption that they would be learning to read, write and do math, and later to learn science, civics, history, geography. Now, they're having discussions about homosexuality and seeing Al Gore's inconvenient untruths movie--in grade school!!

There are many, many dedicated and wonderful teachers out there. In a privatized system, THEY TOO WOULD HAVE A CHOICE about the settings they wanted to teach in. No one has mentioned that.
At the same time, as a society, we do need to provide every single child with the opportunity to become educated.
This is not a simple problem.
But we could do better with changes to the system.


Good teacher, bad teacher, thoughts
The good teachers are underpaid; the bad ones are woefully overpaid. This is what unions do wherever they are.

The best thing the churches did was to establish schools and kick out students who did not want to learn. Why is education compulsory, anyway?

In many countries, you have to pass exams to get in and to go on. We should be able to determine by the sixth grade what the child's interests are. Besides basic English (and teaching in English only!), history, and science for all, there should be electives of other languages and the arts.

At the eighth grade, students should be specializing in either a trade school, a vocational school, or a technical school, all by entrance exam, and all private schools, and all year-round. Only the latter would be a college path. That gives them five years to learn to be productive. There should be a pass/fail exam after two years, and an exit exam or no diploma. Think how this separation and non-compulsory system would alleviate discipline problems.

Why do they need a summer "vacation"? From what? If you are in a trade school to learn to repair diesel engines and really enjoy it, why would you want to goof off for three months when you are anxious to get a good job? Haven't you known kids like that in high school who would rather spend all of their time working on cars? What's wrong with that?

An artist would need geometry, but not calculus. A lab tech, probably neither; and engineer both.

Our problem is that we have over extended and worshipped the period of childhood, and are surprised at the babies we produce.

Washington was an accomplished surveyor at 18. Bach, orphaned at nine, wrote 11 keyboard works by 18, was an accomplished virtuoso organist by then, and paid for his keep by singing in the choir. And Edison?

"At age seven - after spending 12 weeks in a noisy one-room schoolhouse with 38 other students of all ages - Tom's overworked and short tempered teacher finally lost his patience with the child's persistent questioning and seemingly self centered behavior. Noting that Tom's forehead was unusually broad and his head was considerably larger than average, he made no secret of his belief that the hyperactive youngster's brains were "addled" or scrambled."

"If modern psychology had existed back then, Tom would have probably been deemed a victim of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and proscribed a hefty dose of the "miracle drug" Ritalin. Instead, when his beloved mother...became aware of the situation, she promptly withdrew him from school and began to "home-teach" him. Not surprisingly, she was convinced her son's slightly unusual demeanor and physical appearance were merely outward signs of his remarkable intelligence."

More here: http://www.thomasedison.com/biog.htm

If your child had artistic talents, you begged Rembrandt to take him as an apprentice when he was still a very young boy. You paid his support, and he spent his first years as an errand boy, learning to stretch and prime canvas, and learning to grind pigments in linseed oil, all the while watching and waiting until he finally got a chance to touch brush to canvas and paint small sections of murals or portrait backgrounds. If you think that grinding pigments to the right consistency and uniformity is easy, try it. We're spoiled by the stuff in a tube.

OK, kid - sorry to have put you through 17 years of hell - now go get a job or find a school to teach you what you really wanted to do. Good luck.

The Bible (Prov. 22:6) teaches "Train (chanokh) a child in the way (derek) he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it" It means dedication to his life's path in a service pleasing to the Lord, and has nothing to do with discipline and behavior. How better to do that than to encourage his talents at the earliest age?

A big difference no one notices .....
Private schools and religious schools have a huge difference over public schools which everyone ignores--they get to pick and choose their students where as public schools must take everyone regardless of academic skill like the special education kids. Of course their scores are going to be higher--private schools and parochial schools throw out underachievers and concentrate on those who can make the grade alone. It's a real shame that our schools are also being turned into test taking factories where only these artificial scores count. Charter schools only teach how to take all these Draconian tests and little else. At the risk of getting stoned to I seem to recall one Michael Moore saying that there is no such thing as a permanent record.

no bs artist
the blueberry story:
http://www.bridges4kids.org/Inspiration/Vollmer1-03.html

Your point exactly!

no bs artist
Unfortunately, you need correction on something. Most private school, especially church-run schools cannot toss out underachievers. They do remove discipline problems. But so do the public schools. In my state, there are avenues for kids in public schools to find their ways into remedial ed. That is often not done because it brings in more money to classify them as Spec. Ed. and get more of your tax dollars.

The private schools do their screening at the entrance, true. I was a serious underachiever and attended a very exclusive private, Catholic school. They did not chuck me, though they had opportunity at reenrollment, but did everything in their power to get this goof ball up to par. My grades were terrible, but they got some good stuff in.

Hammer
You do have the private school thing right.
They are not looking to kick kids out. If they
do they also kick out $.

But your attack on unions in your question to
Ken is ignorant of the way teachers were treated
before unions stepped up and started demanding
rights in the 60s.

Again see

Al Shanker on blaming unions
http://www.letsgetitright.org/blog/2007/03/a_shanker_classic.html

Diane Ravitch, “The good that unions do”:
http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues/winter06-07/index.htm


and the recently released College Board Report
called "Teachers and an Uncertain American Future":

http://www.collegeboard.com/press/releases/110755.html
see comments on the report here, many by yours truly:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=38

lilly
"Why Have Public Schools?
Why have free public education? As every one of our colonies became a state, it ratified free public education so that the populace would be able to read the Bible. No kidding. "Bible literacy" was the reason. I learned this in a college American History class. So you conservatives who think that public education was invented by the Communists, surprise. Look this up if you don't believe me."

This was also in the days when the USC did not apply to states and NO ONE questioned the teaching not only of religion but sectarian doctrines in the "public school". The Bible was a textbook and the primer was very Christian in nature. They didn't teach anything like the philosophy of secular humanism, didn't question opening the day with a teacher led prayer or blessing their meal, and knew nothing of evolution. They didn't indoctrinate children to look to the state for favors. They didn't point them to abortion clinics to evade responsibility. They didn't teach them the sexual philosophy that became predominant in the 70's much less to "accept" homosexuality. They taught them biblical chastity... and it took.

These schools were completely and totally under local control. The local church had far more influence on what was taught than the state and de Toqueville reported that most of the teachers were clergy. In short, the "public" education of that time was NOTHING like the system now in place.

sjt18
The history of public schools in MA tells a
different story than the one you tell above:

"The local church had far more influence on what was taught than the state"

The state, in this case Horace Mann, had much
more to do with the establishment and funding of
and regulating schools than churches did.

Your history of sexuality in the schools is
not correct either. At least your claim that
it took. If it is I would love proof that
people were more chaste back whenever.
(The only era that this was the case would be
the 1950s. All other eras have much more
prostitution than ours.) Hamilton and
Jefferson (not products of the public schools)
were not chaste. The girls who entered into
white slavery and the men who made it profitable
for them to be there were not chaste. You are
propogating a myth. Keep to propogating the
faith through truth.

Read Gerald Grant's _The World We Created at
Hamilton High_ for a brilliant sociological/
historical look at the American high school
from the 1950s to the 1980s. The major story
it tells is that school follows societal trends
more so than the reverse.

everyonesfacts
Labor unions help no one but the union bosses. I have been a member and have fought an organization campaign. The worker loses every time.

The presence of a union for teachers is more evidence that public education does not work. I do not know a single card carrying union member that teaches in a private school or church-run school. (And the pay is lower, for sure.) Why is that?
Could be they like their jobs, feel they are making a difference, and do not have to whine about "rights".

everyonesfacts
P.S. I follow the College Board reports and the state of education in America pretty closely. The more I read, the more I am convinced of two things. First, the CB is very sympathetic to NEA causes adn second, America's uncertain future may be due to unionized, tenured teachers that aren't worth the tin rivets in a junk pot.

Some thoughts
My county, and I’m sure others, has drop out rates in the 50% area. Mine at 54%. So when you look at educating a child in the k-12 giver-ment indoctrination camps it isn’t $10K/yr it is over $20K/yr. One city in NJ about 15 years ago said it cost $2.3M/graduate. Reality is that giving them $2.3M rather than wasting everybody’s time in the education scam would be a most prudent decision. In my county most of the cost goes to the lower performance skuls where we give them huge real estate and staff running about $15k/student which means the good students get less than $10K.

Actually we still have a shortage of drop outs and have been importing them form Mexico. I suggest cutting more kids out quicker as a pragmatic move, so that the uneducated Mexicans don’t have to leave their families to come here and help us out with all those jobs requiring uneducated folks. Now imagine this, we give the kids the $300K they cost us and take them out of skul. The buy a new house and car and we get the grape pickers we need so badly.

Oddly, Giuliani used to take his worst kids in NYC and put them in Catholic skul for a quarter of his cost and yes their performance went way up, but I wonder if they hurt the performance of the kids already there. One of Giuliani’s problem kids tells the story of his first day. He walked into the lobby and sees some guy hanging from the cross in the hall. It scared him to death. He later explained that his behavior and grade improvement was based on that initial shock realizing they were serious about education and they knew how to deal with trouble makers like himself.

I had a friend with a daughter who flunked out of high skul a few times, had a baby, was in other trouble and I counseled him to send her to a private skul suggesting that he had actually been involved in child abouse by sending her to the giver-ment camps and I gave him some money as did others. And with raising her kid and going to the private skul, a real good one, she quickly went to the top of her class. It wasn’t slow, or that she had to make up for all the skills she never acquired, it was almost immediate improvement to the top. I asked her how this could be. She said in the giver-ment indoctrination camps it is cool to be stupid, in the new skul it is cool to be at the top of your class.

Anyway, the big problem with giver-ment education is it can’t fail. The beauty of private education is that it can fail. I love the charter skuls were when they are doing a bad job they fail, rather than get even more money and more fed fad programs and more administrators, and more special ed programs, yada, yada.

If you look at the latest results I can find you will see that only SC & MO achieve the NAEP 8th grade Math proficient cut. Just two states. In reading no state is proficient. My state had Jim Hunt the education givernor, and we have poured more money down this sink hole than anybody. He was also president of a UN national education program and we were the first with Smart Start and other insanity. Years later we are last in reading proficiency and second to last in math.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2007482.asp

The other issue that Sowell points out is that performance is oddly inverse to the cost.

Oh, I did a story on Bright Beginnings that Hunt was selling all over the country to start indoctrination right out of the cradle. The giver-nor kept telling us how fantastic the results have been and all their tests show the program should be expanded and so we kept pouring more money down the rat hole. I decided to call the women who set up the first operation in the state and had the longest history. I asked her to explain to me how they have been evaluating the success of the program. And in perfect giver-ment logic, she said that she asks the folks running the programs at each location how well they think they are doing and to send her a note saying such. She then said based on how well they think they are doing we disperse funds, so the ones that feel they are doing better we fund better. Only in giver-ment?

Finally we spent the second highest on education in the world and we are falling further behind each year.

http://kapio.kcc.hawaii.edu/upload/fullnews.php?id=52

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml

I suspect that if we were to take more illegal aliens into the skul camps, that this diversity would help the kids start improving in the world rankings. More money, more diversity is the answer. Somebody come up with a slogan we can use for our skul bond campaign.

Seriously you want to know how to improve education. Make the parent pay for it.

Debunking Private School Superiority
Our beloved president went to the finest private prep schools and ivy league colleges that Mommy and Poppy's money could buy. So if private schools are so great how come Dubya turned out to be a total moron? That's not saying much about private school is it? So much for the long cherished conservative myth that private school education is so superior to the public schools. Dubya probably couldn't get past the first grade questions on Are You Smarter than A Fifth Grader! (I bet those kids go to public schools).

all religious schools teach is that their God is superior to all the other Gods out there!

Anyhow for education to work, doesn't it make sense for students, teachers, and parents to all work together. Maybe then something will be accomplished.

no bs artist
You believe that Dubya is a "moron" because you probably had a liberal, communistically oriented public education at the hands of a govt-run, NEA directed system that told you to believe everything the liberal, communistically oriented press told you. I do not agree with all that he does, but if you would measure the man, you would find that he is highly intelligent, and posses greater conviction and sense of right than most Americans. In fact, he manifests the social skills of one of superior intellect, and that may be part of his problem. But your trained-in bias will never allow you to see that. So you just blindly believe what you are told.

It is not "their God". It is GOD. Period. Get that straight and things will go much better for you.

hammer
It's too bad that facts don't buttress your argument.

The NYC Catholic school teachers are union.
Most, not all, union membership is voluntary.
So, if you don't feel like joining don't join. You feel like quiting you can
quit. Also all rules or "rights" are on the table every contract
negotiation. I argue that you could make it much easier to get rid
of many of the rights if you follow the CB report. I also show
the 15-20% pay raise could be attained in 3 years as suggested - extend
the school year to 200 days as they recommend and based on per diem you would increase pay in some areas by 11%. 3 3% increases in 3 years
you got it.

My brother who got his MBA at Chicago, not the hotbed of syndicalist
sympathies, was taught that unions raise the wages and benefits of
their members. Thus, in general, as an employee join one. As an
employer, do your best to restrict it.

I would recommend _Who Built America_ for an overview of US history
from a labor point of view: http://www.ashp.cuny.edu/books.html

My cousin who teaches in RI always thanks me, and all public school
teachers for getting raises. Because their pay mimics the public school teachers'.

And Ravitch, no one's fool and no one's pawn makes several good
points in her essay. Don't you agree?

For me, I think unions are helpful to teachers. But most importantly
they are not what is wrong with schools in America. Private schools
are mimicking the test results of public schools on national tests so
there is something bigger going on. Less deep reading is one thing.
Harry Potter phenomenom is nice, but imho misleading.

deskjockey
makes some arguments for why I support public school choice (this
includes charter and pilot schools).


no bs artist
Basing all private schools on the performance on GWBush is not an
accurate test. And arguable about what it proves. If the electorate
mostly attended public schools.

Also to your point that private schools ONLY teach that their God
is better than other denominations or religions God is better is
not the emphasis of most private schools. In fact, religion is
usually only a small part of the curriculum. Most private school
curriculums are quite similar to public school curriculums. There
are exceptions to the left and to the right which imho is good.


On Unions and Private Schools
Unions: I have been a union member and, according to their rule books, union membership is "voluntary". But try not joining or leaving. You won't have a job, especially in a closed-shop state. For one reason or another, you will be found unsatisfactory under the union rules. (They have to represent the entire bargaining unit, whether or not all are members.) And you will be gone.

Private schools: For private schools to allow themselves to become organized is poor management. Private schools typically do not have the resources to pay scale. I cannot imagine how they are doing it unless the diocese or Rome is kicking in.
And someone mentioned that private schools have the luxury of kicking out the poorer (academically) students. As previously mentioned, they will not do that. But they will kick out the lousy teacher, and quick too, if the administration is smart. Private schools are graded by their SATs and ACTs. I do not see how a competitative private school could function under NEA type rules.

hammer
I will agree closed shop states are different. But in my union, all
members do is say I am leaving the union and the union takes them
off the list. Joining is similarly easy. So, different strokes for different
states. But your claim that teachers will lose their job for not joining
or dropping membership is to all I know unfounded.

You seem not to get, or don't agree that work rules are negotiable.
So during contract negotiations everything is on the table.

For instance, the rules for every school district in MA are different.

Employers have the right to organize. Their are rules for when an
employer must recognize a union. Poor management? Maybe. But the
law is the law. After a union is recognized, the school and the union
will negotiate pay scale. In theory, they could agree that pay should be
minimum wage.

You also seem to think public schools are not judged by their SAT and
ACT scores. Parents do choose their houses based on this. Personally,
I am for greater public school choice so this would make such home
purchasing less necessary.

everyonesfacts
Unions: I started out in the Peoples Republic of California where the teacher's union was one of the most powerful in the nation. Negotiating work rules and pay packages was so closely connected to the "agenda" that it would make one sick. By that I mean that it was not just money or benefits or work times or sanctity of the classroom, but it was also what should be taught and at what grade. How do you think that sex ed got into k-5 etc. It was in the negotiation. Came down from the NEA.

SATs, ACTs: I agree that public schools are also measured by their Standardized test scores of all types. I also fully agree that parents try to locate so as to best take advantage of the best schools. But in many areas of our great land, folks cannot be as mobile, and must make do ro go without. In my area, students can change districts with the approval of the local administration and superintendent. But travel costs are now prohibitive. (I live in a rather rural part of the south.) Better to institute a system that can do the job regardless of location. Privatization seems to me the best way, like the restaurants in the atricle that started this debate.

everyonesfacts
I should also add that I have been away from there 16 years. Could have changed, but it sure soured me. And I figure it hasn't by what I see in the news. For sure, PRCa has bigger fish to fry now what with the immigration problem.

Milton Friedman,
"There is an inverse relationship between the amount of money the state spends on education and the academic results achieved thereby."

milton got that wrong
I would like to know about one of the conditions is asserted in
Austrian/Chicago schoolers posts:
that the U.S. would be better off with
no government support of education.

Is there any proof of this?

It seems in much of the third world this "plan" is unfortunately
practiced and with the, to my way of thinking, logical and
unfortunate results of these people being woefully undereducated comparatively.

Although there isn't a perfect correlation, in general,
it seems that countries that fund education the best have
the best results on those global surveys we hear so much about.*

(BTW I am aware*that the U.S. does underperform - based on $
we should be #1 - on those tests but as far as I am aware we
outperform all countries with little or no government funding
(am I wrong?).

So, is there any proof that the U.S. would be better off with
no government support of education?


btw many third world countries seem to have classes of at least
45 students.

An excellent show on PBS showed classes around the world, see:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/school2/video.html

Some posts on Friedman:
http://www.ednews.org/community/showthread.php?t=101

his videos on-line:
http://miltonfriedman.blogspot.com/

hammer
you're missing the key fact in your post above that everything was
NEGOTIATED.

Anyways a little on Reading, Writing and Real Estate:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/17topicct.html?_r=2&ref=education&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

you might have to sign in for that one?

Anyways, I agree with the last paragraph:

Making it worse is that top-ranked school districts are often available only to those students who can afford to live there. “Geography,” Mr. Johnston said, “shouldn’t be the driver of access to a quality public education.”

everyonesfacts June, 17, 2007 11:50 PM

milton got that wrong
I would like to know about one of the conditions is asserted in
Austrian/Chicago schoolers posts:
that the U.S. would be better off with
no government support of education.

Is there any proof of this?

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

You know, your paradox of libertarian and giver-ment indoctrination k-12 camps and unions is confusing to me. I really think you need to drop the libertarian moniker.

Regarding any proof, I have the 2003 scores for college bound seniors. Public SAT verbal 504 Religious 535 and Independent 550. Math, 516, 530, & 573. I might add that public skuls drop out half their students. And it isn’t all the good ones going to private as they take in bad ones. Giuliani put his worst into the Catholic skul system. I suspect 2003 results were the last Milton had before he died.

everyonesfacts

It seems in much of the third world this "plan" is unfortunately
practiced and with the, to my way of thinking, logical and
unfortunate results of these people being woefully undereducated comparatively.

Although there isn't a perfect correlation, in general,
it seems that countries that fund education the best have
the best results on those global surveys we hear so much about.*


(BTW I am aware*that the U.S. does underperform - based on $
we should be #1 - on those tests but as far as I am aware we
outperform all countries with little or no government funding
(am I wrong?).

So, is there any proof that the U.S. would be better off with
no government support of education?

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

I really don’t think third world nations have “private” education. I can’t think of any that aren’t Marxist states. I think there may be some definition problem with “private” and I wouldn’t rule out the studies are done by those Marxist sites you always link me to that take outrageous liberties in their studies. I have 5 private skuls around me and I can tell you several things. They don’t have a drop out rate of 54% if any. The graduates can go to any college in the US. They won’t need remedial classes for the first year in college. My one neighbor is about to get his third child out of Duke. My other neighbors son just graduated this weekend from Stanford with his masters in business, his sister John Hopkins and just started as an MD in a medical practice the other son did Columbia and I believe Harvard for his masters and works in an merger buyout firm. My black mail man and his maid wife have sent their 3 boys to one of these skuls. So it isn’t the rich and famous, just anybody who wants his kid to have critical thinking. I also have a black cop who sent his two son’s there, and one is a CPA with some huge job making a killing in NYC and the other is about to graduate. Those coming out of our giver-ment skuls often can even get into our state college let alone top skuls and therefore we have a huge community college program to suck them up to waste yet more taxpayer money.
I think the countries with little or no giver-ment funding may actually have no education nor folks that can afford it. I think you will find the tribal leaders and wealthy send their kids to the best private skuls in the US, England and some other nations.

everyonesfacts

btw many third world countries seem to have classes of at least
45 students.

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

I remember not long ago Japan use to kick our butts in the sciences and their class size was 60. The class size myth all came out of the Coleman report in 65 where he found class size had absolutely no impact, except in the 3rd grade they felt there could be some small correlation. On that suspicion the unions have been demanding more teachers for members ever since.

Hammer I love the canard of my good friend who always says, the unions are not to blame “everything is negotiated”. How do you negotiate with a tidal wave, that fund the politicians campaigns, use the skul’s for campaign staging areas, work for the candidates, send home every few nights with the kids, propaganda for passing more bond money that the guy on the other side of town pays for so it is no sweat off their back. It is the exact same juggernaut we have in DC. You have a one party system and you can vote till you blue in the face, the one party will continue forward unfazed.

The problem is no different than AIDS, once you get socialism it will grow and fester and eventually kill you. Sowell points out that these activist all go into giver-ment or education where the crazy ideas can exist without hurting their pay. If they owned a company the market place would kill them off instantly. I remember McGovern after leaving DC and starting his business in CT. He said, if I had only known what I was doing to the business community when I was a legislator. What would be nice is force teachers to get a job for 10 years before they could go back to the womb. At least the outer insanities would have been filed off in the world of reality.

But this is the history of mankind, as Tytler pointed out years ago we have to go through the cycle over and over. We probably have passed our peak and will be disintegrating until invasion or revolution to get out of slavery and then we will obtain freedom and start the process over until we work ourselves back into slavery. The unions will work as hard as they can to accelerate it. The problem is you pay for the giver-ment skul with above market wages and that drives up the wages of the private skul where you pay again. This is insanity. Imagine buying a house or car under this scheme.

Money should be the sole criteria for a good education. If you can buy one buy it, no different than if you can buy a Rolls buy it. It isn't my problem you decided to have a kid. Next time call me before doing it to make sure I can pay for your kid. SLAVERY and the revolution always follows.

dj you did not prove Milty's assertion
dj: "You know, your paradox of libertarian and giver-ment indoctrination k-12 camps and unions is confusing to me. I really think you need to drop the libertarian moniker."

Well, I am for democratic republican government trumping my beliefs.
But I am not against the electorate in any state revoking the part of
their Constitution that mandates schooling. Nor am I against charter
or pilot schools. Nor private schooling. Nor am I against
homeschooling. I often post on these lists how homeschooling imo is
the best method of instruction.


dj writes: "Regarding any proof, I have the 2003 scores for college bound seniors. Public SAT verbal 504 Religious 535 and Independent 550. Math, 516, 530, & 573. I might add that public skuls drop out half their students. And it isn’t all the good ones going to private as they take in bad ones. Giuliani put his worst into the Catholic skul system. I suspect 2003 results were the last Milton had before he died."


Without knowing their parents socio-educational status this data does
not really prove anything. Nor do we know how much was spent on
educating these children in private schools



everyonesfacts

It seems in much of the third world this "plan" is unfortunately
practiced and with the, to my way of thinking, logical and
unfortunate results of these people being woefully undereducated comparatively.

Although there isn't a perfect correlation, in general,
it seems that countries that fund education the best have
the best results on those global surveys we hear so much about.*


(BTW I am aware*that the U.S. does underperform - based on $
we should be #1 - on those tests but as far as I am aware we
outperform all countries with little or no government funding
(am I wrong?).

So, is there any proof that the U.S. would be better off with
no government support of education?

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

I really don’t think third world nations have “private” education. I can’t think of any that aren’t Marxist states. I think there may be some definition problem with “private” and I wouldn’t rule out the studies are done by those Marxist sites you always link me to that take outrageous liberties in their studies. I have 5 private skuls around me and I can tell you several things. They don’t have a drop out rate of 54% if any. The graduates can go to any college in the US. They won’t need remedial classes for the first year in college. My one neighbor is about to get his third child out of Duke. My other neighbors son just graduated this weekend from Stanford with his masters in business, his sister John Hopkins and just started as an MD in a medical practice the other son did Columbia and I believe Harvard for his masters and works in an merger buyout firm. My black mail man and his maid wife have sent their 3 boys to one of these skuls. So it isn’t the rich and famous, just anybody who wants his kid to have critical thinking. I also have a black cop who sent his two son’s there, and one is a CPA with some huge job making a killing in NYC and the other is about to graduate. Those coming out of our giver-ment skuls often can even get into our state college let alone top skuls and therefore we have a huge community college program to suck them up to waste yet more taxpayer money.
I think the countries with little or no giver-ment funding may actually have no education nor folks that can afford it. I think you will find the tribal leaders and wealthy send their kids to the best private skuls in the US, England and some other nations.


dj I thought we were arguing whether there "is an inverse relationship between the amount of money the state spends on education and the academic results achieved thereby."???

Not whether there are good private schools. I live within 20 miles of
supposedly the best private school in America. And in the state that
has many of the leading private schools. I know they are good. Maybe
even good for the price you pay.

What I was arguing was if there is an inverse relationship between the
amount of money spent by the state on education and academic results
those states that spend the least on education - 3rd world countries -
should have the best results if Milton is right. This I assure you is not
the case.

As to your last point I think you will find tuition at these private schools
that the wealthy send their kids to cost more per pupil than your average
public school (that does not include room and board).

Philips Andover 27,500 (day students)
Groton 29,500 (day)
Governor Dummer 33,500 (day)
Emma Willard 22,000
average 20,500 (day)
http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_overview.php

So, I am sure there are some cities paying this much on a per pupil
basis for terrible results. But the wealthiest Americans and international
leaders are paying more $ than what I have listed unless they live close
to the schools. This does not support your argument.


everyonesfacts

btw many third world countries seem to have classes of at least
45 students.

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS "I remember not long ago Japan use to kick our butts in the sciences and their class size was 60. The class size myth all came out of the Coleman report in 65 where he found class size had absolutely no impact, except in the 3rd grade they felt there could be some small correlation. On that suspicion the unions have been demanding more teachers for members ever since."

So are you advocating class sizes of 65 to improve education. My point
is that these countries are paying little to public education and not
getting the best results as Milton's quote would have us expect.

(Anyways, I know many college classes work fine with large numbers
using aides as tutors and for correcting. 9-12 could try this out. I am
not against it. But having a teaching load of 300 without aides is not
palatable to teachers and not good for kids, simply for correcting
writing. Never mind other issues.)


dj: "Hammer I love the canard of my good friend who always says, the unions are not to blame “everything is negotiated”. How do you negotiate with a tidal wave, that fund the politicians campaigns, use the skul’s for campaign staging areas, work for the candidates, send home every few nights with the kids, propaganda for passing more bond money that the guy on the other side of town pays for so it is no sweat off their back. It is the exact same juggernaut we have in DC. You have a one party system and you can vote till you blue in the face, the one party will continue forward unfazed."

The only good alternatives seem to be a deskjockeyocracy or a djarchy.
Take your pick. Meanwhile I'll stick with imperfect democracy and
republican government:

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" -Winston Churchill


dj: "The problem is no different than AIDS, once you get socialism it will grow and fester and eventually kill you. Sowell points out that these activist all go into giver-ment or education where the crazy ideas can exist without hurting their pay. If they owned a company the market place would kill them off instantly. I remember McGovern after leaving DC and starting his business in CT. He said, if I had only known what I was doing to the business community when I was a legislator. What would be nice is force teachers to get a job for 10 years before they could go back to the womb. At least the outer insanities would have been filed off in the world of reality."

Probably a good idea for some teachers. But I did work for nearly 10
years in private industry before becoming a teacher, so it does not
seem to apply. Again though it is negotiable and in the end the voters
whether they accept it or not are in charge.

I think you would be surprised at how many education ideas come from
business. There is definitely use of the 7 Habits by Grant Wiggins and
use of Jim Collins _Good to Great_ which imho is a ripoff of Drucker in
the learning communities approach see the Dufours, Schmoker, and
Thomas(?) Reeves. So, school systems are not immune to the latest
business approaches to management. But remember schools are not
meant to be profitable.

dj: "But this is the history of mankind, as Tytler pointed out years ago we have to go through the cycle over and over. We probably have passed our peak and will be disintegrating until invasion or revolution to get out of slavery and then we will obtain freedom and start the process over until we work ourselves back into slavery. The unions will work as hard as they can to accelerate it. The problem is you pay for the giver-ment skul with above market wages and that drives up the wages of the private skul where you pay again. This is insanity. Imagine buying a house or car under this scheme."

I reject the cyclical view of history though it is interesting to look at.
My advice run for school committee with your ideas or get a majority of
the school board to be like minded. It does not take a revolution. Just
some changes.


dj: "Money should be the sole criteria for a good education. If you can buy one buy it, no different than if you can buy a Rolls buy it. It isn't my problem you decided to have a kid. Next time call me before doing it to make sure I can pay for your kid. SLAVERY and the revolution always follows."

Thank you my millenarian friend. Very libertarian indeed.


p.s. Please note the socialist sites I use. I'd be interested to know.
btw, I don't want them to be your opinion, but sites that are openly and
avowed socialists. The NYT and AFT don't count.

Public Schools
I read Mr. Goldberg's column and many of the comments about his article. As a 50 year old I was forced out of the corporate world, and have finished 3 years of teaching 7th graders English. I am sure there are significant problems in the DC schools, as there are in many large urban districts, but most of you responding have no clue. Many states do have powerful teacher unions, but not all. Even if you gave everyone a voucher, I would still have many of my low performing students, because unlike many of you who care, their parents do not value education. I have rich and poor parents take their students out of class to fit their schedule. Unlike McDonald, that has pretty much the same menu everyday, my lessons are unique every day. Some of your statements are no doubt true in a limited setting, but the public reads them and applies them to every public school, every public school teacher, and rarely looks at the student or parent for their contribution or lack of contribution. Please be temperate about your comments and generalizations. The public school is important, and many do an excellent job.

Assignment for JMJ, Heather, everyone
Since JMJ rudely criticized Heather's writing, I thought it would be fair to give his writing the same scrutiny.

In his post entitled "Heather," which I have copied below, there are at least 13 obvious language errors. Can you find them?

Misspellings: two (not counting the one deliberate misspelling to avoid censorship)
Capitalization errors: three
Punctuation errors: six
Errors in pronoun/antecedent agreement: one
Syntax errors: two

"You obviouly came from a public school, please check your spelling. The teachers left the public school system because 1. They didn't receive support from the administration in order to discipline the students and 2. Because, yes the parents of private school "DO" respect the teachers and expect their children to learn and respect the teachers. If the parents don't discipline the kids and the administration feels the child is disruptive, they get expelled. They don't have to put up with dumb a$$ parents who would rather side with their unruly child than have their child learn in a conducive environment. Parents of private school children expect their chil to behave and learn..."

Too many kneejerk homeschoolers
Thanks Hammer! You are right. Homeschooling does work for some, but not everyone. You are testing the children of those who are failing, and their parents have finally chosen another route. Good for them.

People should avoid a kneejerk reaction to a bad public school experience.

There are basically 3 mindsets in the homeschool community. Some are homeschooling out of preference and don't last long. Others are motivated out of conviction and usually stand the test of time.

1. Pioneers (First Wave of Homeschoolers)

In the early 1980s before the public schools were generally viewed as performing poorly and safety was not generally an issue, two dramatically different groups of people emerged creating the modern homeschooling movement.

The first were largely Fundamentalist Christians who wanted what they called a “Christ Centered Education”. Their goal was integrate family relationships, life skills, academics, and religious training in equal proportions into the education of their children. They believed that God had a particular plan for each child’s life, and it was the job of the parent to educate and train their children as individuals for that purpose, which usually included attending college.

Meanwhile a secular group of parents, many inspired by John Holt’s writings, decided that keeping their children at home and customizing a education to suit their particular talents and interests emerged. They believed that real life and academics should be integrated to give a greater understanding of the world and to prepare them for the self motivation required to succeed in college.

Both groups had different motivations, but some of their methodology was very similar. They practice tutorial style education with the flexibility that comes with customization. Apprenticeships, life experiences, and high quality academics are common between them. Neither group likes the standard scope and sequence approach that is characteristic of institutional settings. Often they avoid workbooks and favor more first source materials when possible.

In general they share the conviction that institutional settings are bad for children, so of course, homeschooling is the only acceptable option to meet their goals.

These two groups were primarily responsible for the legal battles necessary to make homescholing a legally recognized option in each state. They currently fight to deregulate homeschooling nationwide.

2. Settlers (Second Wave Homeschoolers)

In the early 1990s several studies on academic performance revealed that homeschoolers were outperforming institutionalized children in both the public and private sectors on standardized testing. A group of parents took notice because academic performance was their number one priority. They began homeschooling their children and enjoyed the flexible lifestyle.

They do not have convictions that institutional settings are categorically bad for children, and many can afford private/religious education, but their children are thriving in the homeschooling environment. This group has a large mix of very religious and non religious people, and everyone in between.

Settlers are primarily responsible for taking homeschooling into the mainstream.

3. Refugees (Third Wave Homeschoolers)

By the late 1990s and after the turn of the new millennium public schools were getting bad press specifically about negative social issues and poor academic performance. The floodgates of homeschooling opened and a new group of parents poured into the homeschool community.

They were fleeing. They did not like the charter schools and could not afford a private/religious institutional setting, so they decided to homeschool until they can afford private schools or until the public schools are seriously overhauled.

It is not unusual for this group to homeschool for a short period of time mimicking the schedules, prepackaged curriculum, and scope and sequence approach of institutional settings. They often leave homeschooling when they realize the level of personal commitment required and find their way to some sort of institutional setting.

This rapidly growing group may very well motivate politicians to create school choice reforms for all American children.


The current homeschool community is full of people with very different ideas and motivations. It is possible to evolve out of one type into another. Most Settlers and Refugees are unaware of the different mind sets. Pioneers are very aware and tend to gravitate toward other Pioneers when they want to do some serious “shop talk”. It is easier to feel supported by someone who understands where you’re coming from.




Homeschool Mom
You should be blogging! Great timeline breakdown of the home school movement.

I was a home schooled student in the #1 category way back when it was illegal to home school. It's good to see how it has progressed to what it is today. Looking back, I wouldn't do it any other way.

I would like to invite you to start a home schooling blog here on Townhall. I think Townhall community would appreciate your perspective on the social and civic dynamics related to home schooling.

Let me know how I can help you get started.

~ Josué
Online Community Manager
Townhall.com

Hey Josue,
How do you know that "Homeschool Mom" hasn't tried starting a blog Here?

I tried "clicking" on your handle numerous times, but to no avail.

We are coming upon Our one year anniversary of the Townhall's blog debut and it is still difficult to access.

How's this for an idea: Hire a new group of people to oversee the site.

Who Here is tired of seeing,"The page you are looking for.....[?]"

Homeschool timeline/no time to blog
You flatter me, Josue. I would love to, but you see, I homeschool.

Let me clarify-my post about knee jerk homeschoolers and the evolution of the homeschool movement was a synopsis of an article in the book I Saw The Angel In The Marble by Chris and Ellyn Davis (formerly of the Elijah Company) mixed with my personal experiences and observations.

I had observed many philosophical differences here in my 13,000+ homeschool community and was keeping track of the patterns. Then I read the Davis's book, and they had a lot of insight from their many more years of experience complete with terminology and everything.

The book Kingdom of Children by Mitchell Stevens is a sociologist's decade long study of Pioneers (first wave homeschoolers). Both the religious and secular groups are respectfully represented. Fascinating read.


Making a choice in education
Getting Started. This process can take a long time, but it can increase the chances you will be satisfied in the long run and you won’t have wasted time, money, and energy.


Step 1: What your child(ren) should learn

List everything you learned in your K-12 education that was important and useful.

List everything you learned in your K-12 education that was not important and not useful.

List and prioritize everything you think your children should know when they graduate from high school.



Step 2: How your child(ren) should learn

Do whatever research is necessary to have a good understanding of personality types.

Do whatever research is necessary to have a good understanding of learning styles.

Do whatever research is necessary to have a good understanding of different educational/teaching methods/philosophies.


Steps 1 + 2 should = a fairly clear idea of what your educational philosophy is.



Step 3: Where your child(ren) should learn

Begin researching different educational settings and how their educational philosophies compare to yours.

Consider how the financial cost, transportation requirements, time investments, and scheduling issues will affect your lifestyle and daily living.

Talk to others who have chosen the different settings you are researching. Real life experiences can differ greatly from orientations/websites/ brochures.