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Friday, May 18, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who says it's wrong to take sides in a civil war?
by Jonah Goldberg
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Without much notice and even less discussion, "civil war" has become the new abracadabra phrase for American foreign policy.

Sen. Joe Biden leads the magicians who've seemed to convince everybody that it never makes sense to get involved in a civil war. In March, he screamed from the Senate floor: "I'm so tired of hearing on this floor about courage. Have the courage to tell the administration, ŒStop this ridiculous policy you have.' We're taking sides in a civil war."

Biden's not alone. It's become a standard talking point for most major opponents of the Iraq war. The Democrats' Iraq-withdrawal point man in the House, John Murtha, says we're "caught in a civil war" in almost every interview, as if this is the geopolitical equivalent of "I've fallen and can't get up." Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid said last week that, "We stand united ... in our belief that troops are enmeshed in an intractable civil war."

The assumption behind this gambit is obvious: Declaring it a civil war is like blowing a whistle at the end of the game. There's nothing left to do but pack up the equipment and go home.

Al-Qaida in Iraq (and perhaps the Iranians) have clearly figured this out. That's why they consistently try to stoke sectarian passions by, for example, bombing the Golden Mosque in Samarra, Iraq's holiest Shia shrine. That 2006 attack prompted the formation of Shiite militias and death squads, which in turn provided fresh evidence that Iraq was heading toward civil war.

Meanwhile, the Bush administration has been desperate to keep the press from describing the situation in Iraq as a "civil war," for the obvious reason that the administration will lose its remaining support if the American public thinks this is just a civil war.

OK, but here's what I don't get: Why? Why is it obvious that intervening in a civil war is not only wrong but so self-evidently wrong that merely calling the Iraqi conflict a civil war closes off discussion?

Surely it can't be a moral argument. Every liberal foreign policy do-gooder in Christendom wants America to interject itself in the Sudanese civil war unfolding so horrifically in Darfur. The high-water mark in post-Vietnam liberal foreign policy was Bill Clinton's intervention in the Yugoslavian civil war. If we can violate the prime directive of no civil wars for Darfur and Kosovo, why not for Kirkuk and Basra?

If your answer is that those calls for intervention were "humanitarian," that just confuses me more. Advocates of a pullout mostly concede that Iraq will become a genocidal, humanitarian disaster if we leave. Is the prospect of Iraqi genocide more tolerable for some reason?

Then there are those who take the fatalist's cop-out: Civil wars have no good guys and bad guys. They're just dogfights, and we should stay out of them and see who comes out on top. But that's also confusing, because not only is it not true, but liberals have been saying the opposite for generations. They cheered for the Reds against the Whites in the Russian civil war, for the Communists against the Fascists in the Spanish civil war, and for the victims of ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia and Sudan. Surely liberals believe there was a good side and a bad side in the American Civil War?

Ah, but I'm missing the point, they might say. It's not that there aren't good guys and bad guys, it's that we can't do anything about it and therefore it's not in our interests to try. Then they point to, say, the civil wars in Lebanon or, closer to their hearts, Vietnam.

Let's stipulate Vietnam was a civil war. So what? There were certainly good guys and bad guys, and let the record show the bad guys won, which was not in our interests. This in turn led to many humanitarian calamities. And, recall, another superpower intervened in that civil war, and it worked out pretty well for the Soviets.

More to the point, it's ludicrous to believe America has no interest in who wins or loses various civil wars, including Iraq's. The 20th century would have been a lot more pleasant if the Bolsheviks had lost the Russian civil war, and the 21st will be a lot more ugly if Sunni Salafists or Iranian pawns win in Iraq.

I'm not saying a civil war is a desirable environment for anybody. But nor is it a geopolitical black box absolving all concerned from moral and strategic discrimination. And yet that is exactly what advocates for withdrawal from Iraq want everyone to believe, but only when it comes to Iraq.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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You're expecting sense from liberals?
Consistency? Intellectual honesty? Rational assessments?

Really?

On what planet?


Civil War analysis
Jonah, you're 100% right -- it's certainly in America's best interests to exercise choices when it comes to civil wars.

NOT A CIVIL WAR
Iraq is not in a civil war. The three major factions are all in geographically separate areas -- except for Baghdad.

Baghdad is a Shia majority city in the middle of Sunni territory. Baghdad is also the capital and also where most of the media are. Most of the attacks are in Baghdad because those attacks will get news coverage.

Perspective
We started our "Civil War" (also called the War for Independence) against England in 1776. Didn't finish until 1787 and it took until 1789 to get a Constitution. BTW, the French intervened in that "Civil War" due to their abiding national interests. Recogonize any parallells?

Our other Civil War took four years to finish and the British almost came in on the side of the South. Would that have changed anything?

The Iraqi situation is troubling, convoluted and dangerous. But the scenario of us leaving and the butchers taking over is far worse. That would be giving a larger land base to the islamofascists. They already have Iran, thanks to Jimmah Cahtah.

adding to Hard Thought's comments
US involvement weakened a sitting ruler in the area ("thanks to Jimmah Cahtah.") and caused the Iranian civil war. Does the current detesting of "it's a civil war" mean that the US should make up for this earlier mistake, overthrow the current despot of Iran and put a US friendly despot in so that things are like they were before the Shaw?

Liberal Traits
Cowardice, Dishonesty, Moral-Relativism. Yeah, that's the Liberal Strategy for CUTTING-AND-RUNNING!

A wider conflict
What I find interesting in Mr. Goldberg's article is a complete lack of attention given to Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia or to the Shia state in Iran.

Last time I checked, both of those nations indicated extreme interest in the fates of their respective 'peoples' in Iraq. Both sides have indicated a willingness to go to war to support their proxies in Iraq if things turn badly for them.

Who says it's wrong to take sides in a civil war? Mr. Goldberg, any 9th grade world geography class could tell you the correct answer. I'd hope that you are more savvy than them!


a devils advocate question for redneck
So when Saddam was gassing the Kurds it was, by definition, a civil war item that shouldn't be examined by the world at large? Ditto Kosovo, ditto Rwanda, ditto Sudan, ditto Tienamin Square, ditto the Berlin wall (local to the Soviet empite)....

I hope your "Correct answer" was NO, civil wars are often fought for good reason.

bad turn of phrase
"who says it's wrong to take sides in a civil war? Mr. Goldberg, any 9th grade world geography class could tell you the correct answer." I had answered in my head what a ninth grade class would parrot back "it's never right to go to war at any time for any reason - polly wanna cracker"

Although you hadn't stated the answer to the rhetorical question, that answer is what I was saying "NO" to.

C_Miner
If the Iraq War (civil or not) were taking place in a vacuum, Mr. Goldberg's essay might make more sense. But unfortunately, neighboring countries also are paying close attention to events on the ground as well. It would seem naive to assume that Saudi Arabia would sit idly by while Iraqi Sunnis are slaughtered by Shias, or vice versa (regarding Iran).

While I agree that the world at large dropped the ball in failing to intervene in those humanitarian crises like Rwanda, Sudan, etc., none of those instances had the capability to spread like wildfire into surrounding nations. Intervention itself is not the issue- widening armed conflict in an already unstable region is.

Lastly, if you haven't been in a school lately, I can guarantee that you aren't going to see 9th graders parroting anything that a teacher (or any adult, for that matter) tells them. While most townhall.com readers wouldn't agree with this statement, most public school teachers are not preaching pacifism in their classrooms.

Unfortunately............
I am nearing the conclusion that we do need to come home, not because we're losing, and not because I think this endeavor was ignoble or wrong.

We were right to go, and we acted honorably. Tanabear is correct that this has turned into a series of tribal wars. As soon as you stop one, five more start up. If there's anything that these people hate more than us and the Isrealis, it's each other, and it seems like we're caught in the middle.

Either we fight with the gloves off, and make it horrible for the various factions to continue the violence, or we need to take a different tact. However, what I'm proposing would be untenable to the liberals in this country.

Walk away, and tell everybody in Iraq and Iran, "We're leaving, play nice, or don't, we could care less. But the next terrorist attack on US soil, including embassies, or against one of our allies will result in immediate iradication of the perpetrators, and everyone else for 100 square miles of them."

Since the above won't happen, how about letting our soldiers do their job to the best of their ability and see how it turns out.

I thought
I thought he was talking about the civil war here in America.

Civil War
"If we can violate the prime directive of no civil wars for Darfur and Kosovo, why not for Kirkuk and Basra?"

Because the liberals didn't start it that is why.

continuing with redneck
Good points about the region, but I'd suggest following them through a little more. If the area is a powder keg, and the neighbours are all ready to get into a pitched battle the moment the US pulls out, isn't that then an arguement to stay (that by supporting a democratically chosen republican government over anarchy and by being the big dog, US presence keeps the fight from expanding because the little dogs don't want to get stomped)? The current situation sounds a lot like pre-WW1 Europe, where there were a large number of roughly equal empires who deluded themselves about the force balance. Much better than pre-WW2 where there was only 1 side that was spoiling for a fight, and all others who would do anything to avoid it (but that's an arguement for another day).

Looking on a map, the areas mentioned in Africa would seem to mark a global boundary: the current Islamic front. Ask Ethiopia and Eritrea about whether civil wars are strickly local or are part of a greater phenomenon. Unfortunately, no nations exist in a vacuum, and I see the sub-saharan region as being as dangerous for a regional flare as the middle east.

As for schools, it was about 15 years ago, but I remember taking on my whole high school history class about whether the net effect of Hiroshima saved lives. No one else, including the teacher, used facts outside of what the textbook said (and the teacher tried to refute me, but couldn't answer why they didn't just drop it on Tokyo if a high death toll was all they were after). From what I've heard from the current high school students, outside scholarship has dropped, not risen, in the meantime. Sorry, we'll have to disagree on this one, too.

Time for me to wander off, that was a good discussion. Another time, perhaps?

fighting a civil war was not authorized
Jonah Goldberg asks: "Who says it's wrong to take sides in a civil war?"

If you go back to read the original Congressional resolution passed in October 2002 which authorized war against Iraq, you will have your answer.

The war resolution that was passed by Congress, included the elimination of a perceived existential security threat to the West, in the form of Saddam's regime, its support for terrorism, and its alleged stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). There was NOTHING in the original war resolution about using U.S. armed force to put down a civil war inside Iraq in the post-Saddam era.

True, the war resolution did cross-reference the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. But that Act only authorized humanitarian aid to help transition Iraq to democracy--NOT armed force to put down civil wars.

Hence for Bush to use that original war resolution as a pretext for military intervention in post-Saddam civil war, represents an abuse of his authority. It might even be considered an impeachable offense.

If Bush insists we need to intervene militarily in Iraq's civil wars, then he should go back to Congress and demand a new resolution authorizing that action as well.

so, who's side are we on?
Jonah Goldberg asks: "Who says it's wrong to take sides in a civil war?"

Ok, I'm fine with that. But then this idiot Jonah Goldberg never says which side he's talking about (he's using the classic strawman fallacy). In Vietnam we backed the North. In Korea, we backed the South. In Iraq, I don't know the answer, and neither does Goldberg.

There's sunni bathists, sunni arabists, shias loyal to Iran, shias with other loyalties, two major kurdish factions, sunni islamiscists, turks, and who knows what others. Let's have a townhall contest - name the faction you think we're backing. I'm voting for the Turkmen.

Khan
"In Viet Nam we backed the North"....what? Where did you go to school? All this time I coulda sworn my brother served in SOUTH Viet Nam, and John McCain was a POW in NORTH Viet Nam.
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