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Friday, January 19, 2007
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Blinding Us With Science
by Jonah Goldberg
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


For a generation, American politics has largely been frozen in place when it comes to so-called "reproductive issues." Abortion has been the keystone holding up a number of related positions, from euthanasia to embryonic stem cell research, with self-described pro-lifers and pro-choicers locked in a permanent cold war.

But the light of science is melting the permafrost beneath them, making abortion seem like a 20th-century argument about feminism whereas the argument in the 21st century will be about humanity itself - and whether science is the source of human values.

Tellingly, in the past, both sides in the abortion wars have claimed science as their ally in the fight over when life begins. Embryonic stem cell research, however, has changed the focus of that argument because, for good reasons and bad, ESCR advocates want to stop talking about those who are pro-life and start calling their opponents "anti-science," as if being anti-science - whatever that means - is an immoral stance.

Pro-embryonic stem cell activists have given science something of a messianic role in human affairs, casting it as a deliverer from our moral plight. For example, in a pique of asininity, Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., declared this month, "It is scandalous that eight years have passed since we have known about stem cell research and the potential to conquer all known maladies, and federal funds have not been available for the research."

All ... known ... maladies? Really? Before that, John Edwards all but promised that a vote for John Kerry was a vote for Christopher Reeve to walk again.

But it appears that Hermes (the Greek god of science) is proving to be a fickle ally. New research shows that there are other, perhaps more promising, sources of "pluripotent" cells (i.e., ones that can become any other cell) that don't involve destroying embryos. Wake Forest researchers found rich sources of stem cells in simple amniotic fluid. Pro-lifers are now using this research to cast themselves as the true allies of science. Hermes' sword, it seems, has a double edge.

Simply because science can do something is in no way an argument that it should (or shouldn't) do it. Science is morally neutral. Science kills and science cures. Which is why it's so disturbing that both left and right have bought into the rhetoric of science as a source of morality. Scientists themselves tend to understand the moral ambiguity of science, which is why they spend so much time arguing about professional ethics.

For example, everybody agrees that life-ending experimentation on a 5-year-old boy would be wrong. But what if such research could solve "all human maladies"? Would it be wrong then? More relevant, would it be "anti-science"?

Yes, yes, ESCR advocates reject comparing embryos to fully developed humans. But that misses the point on two scores. First, the determination that embryos have no moral worth is not a scientific conclusion but a moral one. Second, rejecting the comparison doesn't answer the question: Is it anti-science to bar certain procedures on moral grounds? Animal-rights activists don't believe they are anti-science when they oppose cruel testing on monkeys, even when it could lead to medical breakthroughs. Was it anti-science when doctors invented the "bloodless" heart bypass to accommodate the concerns of Jehovah's Witnesses who didn't want transfusions?

We need to grapple with these questions now because we are only entering the shallow rapids while the waterfalls lay ahead. But you can already hear the onrush of water.

Slate's William Saletan recently chronicled how the age of retail eugenics has arrived. Gender-selective abortion is commonplace in the developing world. In the developed West, we're more selective at the embryonic level. For example, a handful of deaf parents are deliberately selecting embryos that will become deaf - and doctors are helping. Meanwhile, researchers at Oregon State University recently revealed that hormone treatments can reverse homosexuality in sheep. Predictably, lesbian activist Martina Navratilova and others complained that the sheeps' "right" to be gay was being violated. While no one called Navratilova "anti-science," it's not hard to see the slippery slope she's concerned about.

Indeed, abortion-rights absolutism provides no defensible terrain to object to that slippery slope. Today's "pro-science" champions may soon see a world where homosexuality is eradicated in utero thanks to their hard work establishing the absolute moral sovereignty of individual choice and science.

This is the beauty and curse of science: It tends to undermine the cherished positions and assumptions of everyone, even those who claim to be its champions. Perhaps that's one reason we shouldn't derive our values from such a moving target in the first place.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Anti-life
Watchtower blood transfusion ban is anti-life.

The Jehovah's Witnesses prohibition against "whole" blood transfusions is made up by their sect leaders and NOT from the Bible.It has resulted (by their own admission) in the deaths of thousands of members.

They keep flip-flopping on this deadly dogma to evade wrongful death lawsuits.
Did you know that the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses does allow many of the components of blood so called blood fractions?

This is the issue,the blood 'ban' is so complicated that members will die out of ignorance of what's permitted.

---
Danny Haszard life-long 3rd generation Jehovah's Witness

Is Science Really "Morally Neutral"
Jonah,

I absolutely agree with your main point that we shouldn't attempt to derive moral values from what science teaches. We shouldn't attempt it, because it's impossible by definition. But I want to expand on that to say that, worse than failing to resolve our moral questions, a resort to science on moral questions is likely to lead us to wrong answers.

You write that "science is morally neutral." Moral judgments are not scientific judgments. So it is tautological truth to assert that "to the extent science is not morally neutral, then to that same extent it's not really science." When a scientist starts making moral judgments, he's no longer acting as a scientist. All true, in a compartmentalized abstract world.

(Actually, rather than "morally neutral," "morally oblivious" is more accurate. Neutrality in matters requiring judgment suggests an unbiased weighing of considerations. But a scientist, as a scientist, does not weigh moral considerations. A scientist qua scientist he ignores moral questions altogether.)

In the abstract, the world of science and the world of morals can never intersect. So, yes, speaking of science as an abstract concept, one can say it is morally neutral--a fact which in and of itself should be enough to make us stop seeking moral guidance from science, or from scientists qua scientists.

But my very point is that we don't live in an abstract world. Science is carried on by human beings, a group of humans that, as much or more than any other, naturally defends its freedom to pursue its essential activity independently of external control (i.e., non-scientific control).

Yet when a scientist takes a position on a moral concept, such as "freedom," we don't seem to notice that he has taken off his scientist hat and put on the hat under which he makes moral judgments, that he has stopped acting "as a scientist." We trust him almost unquestioningly on these non-scientific questions, even though the scientist's clearest interest, as a human being who is a scientist, is the freedom to do "good science," which--given the natural amorality of science qua science, cannot be equal to "morally acceptable science." From a scientist's point of view, as a scientist, "good science" is the "advancement of scientific knowledge," without reference to moral questions.

So, notwithstanding the fact that, strictly speaking, when a scientist takes off his scientist hat and puts on his moralizer hat, he ceases to be a scientist, we read often of this or that group of 50, 100, or 1000 "prominent" scientists who have endorsed this or that moral or political position. "Good scientists" should know better, both from a scientific and from a moral point of view--because it's not good science to moralize, and it's bad morals for a scientist to pretend otherwise. But these scientists, who prefer that science should not be subjected to external moral influences, see no contradiction when they themselves, touting an inapposite authority, moralize to the rest of the world.

Of course, as human beings in a free society, scientists are entitled to moralize to high heaven right along with the rest of us. Yet because of the intrinsic amorality of their calling--a calling which, by its very nature, can provide its practitioners no preparation to deal with moral questions--scientists should the be last group we turn to (for anything more than technical guidance) on moral questions. This is especially the case as to moral questions on matters such as genetics and stem cell research, wherein scientists have a conflict of interests arising from their very natural and human desire for freedom to pursue "good science," which as noted above is not necessarily the same as "morally acceptable science."

When a scientist takes off his scientist hat and starts moralizing, he's no more authoritative than the average Joe Schmoe, and probably less so, given the fact that the average Joe Schmoe has not spent his life in an occupation that places no value on moral judgment.

And when a scientist goes one step further to start moralizing about his freedom to pursue good science (and tells us it's all for the "benefit of mankind," which, strictly speaking, as a scientist, he should care about not a whit), he's no longer just Joe Schmoe; he's the fox guarding the henhouse.

And, yes, I know lots of scientists would be incensed with me for writing such things. They'd indignantly remind me that they have mothers, too. To those lousy scientists, who are also lousy moralists, I want to reply, "Okay, I admit, as humans, scientists have mothers, too. But, as scientists, wouldn't you really prefer to use a different term, something less laden with moral implications, something like 'female progenitor'?"

The NAZI's come to mind...
...I think it was about 10 or 12 years ago a group of scientists petitioned the government to release the detailed results of the Nazi expieriments on prisoners in concentration camps during WWII.Things such as the effects of freezing sea water on the human body and Dr Mengele's expierments on twins,primarily children.

Well,Congress went bonkers! Absolutely not!These expierments murdered human beings and the scientists would have to bow to morality on that issue.The scientists argued that the human beings were already dead and that maybe we could learn something from the results to save other human life.The scientists lost that argument and had to bow to morality (as well as politics,of course.)

Morality shapes politics and vice versa.

Some of Hitler's henchmen were
calling themselves 'scientists' just 'trying to advance human knowledge.

Echoes of William James
This column puts me in mind of a question philosopher William James once posed: Imagine that paradise on Earth could be achieved at a very modest cost: being unjustly cruel to one small boy. Could such a purchase be justified by any standard of morality?

James was agonized by the question, a stark investigation of utilitarian reasoning. He, the founder of Pragmatism who had emphasized the "cash value" of ideas, found himself badly torn. In pondering the matter, he discovered that he possessed absolute values, disconnected from all questions of utility, that threatened the foundation of his Pragmatic philosophy.

We've known for quite a while that you can't derive an "ought" from an "is." But the advance of our ability to manipulate nature continually tests our fidelity to our "oughts"...and our "ought nots." We suffer repeated emotional pain as our desires, inflamed by the promise of some new scientific or technological development, crosscut our moral sense. Perhaps that's the way God wants it.

Who is being harmed?
Embrionic stem cells are harvested from blastulas. A blastula is a collection of a small number of undifferentiated cells. These blastulas come from fertility clinics and would be thrown out otherwise.

Differentiation in cells is the process becomming something, a nerve cell of a bone cell or whatever. A blastula of undifferentiated cells in no way is human -- it doesn't do anything.

Of course, Goldberg either knows these things and chooses to ignore them, or else he doesn't know them and chooses not to learn. Either way his post is irresponsible.

lgm
Blastula, spastula. When the male and female gametes meet, their union results in 46 chromosomes which causes rapid dividing. After the first division you could extract DNA from the cell and it would be unquestionably human. A blastula, an embryo, a zygote, a fetus, on and on, are human creatures, size appropriate for their age.

Of course, you already know these things and ignore them because they don't fit into your pogrom (sorry, program)concerning the unborn.

Fiddler...
..."pogrom" was correct.

It's funny
how liberals and nazis' thought patterns run side-by-side.

Dr Mengele thought it was cool to experiment on children and libs just went a step farther and after implementing abortions for all, are now going after the fetus'. It's just a collection of cells after all.

And we're surprised HOW?

lgm
My own thoughts echo your sentiments.

Everything scientific that I have ever read concerning stem cell research very clearly mentions other resources for the same type of raw material. Many of the other options are identified as a less expensive harvest with fewer complications, but for whatever reason seem to lack funding (which, in my capitalistic view of the world, makes absolutly no sense).

This is a political red herring that has washed ashore and begun to decompose.

Sadly, I can't tell if it is the zelots from the pro-abortion camp or anti-abortion camp that are responsible for the coreographed campaign of mis-information.

And just because I have to say it, "pogrom" is actually not correct, in the literal sense. Ethnicity is not related to the topic at hand.




For DannyHaszard
The fact that the JW's blood-transfusion ban was made-up by sect leaders was revealed most embaressingly in 1998 when a British JW stabbed for witnessing a robbery had to RENOUNCE FAITH to get a transfusion (and later testify in court).

The other real joke is "Christian Science", a cult which is neither Bible-based (as convert to Protestantism from Hinduism, I personally studied the Bible as deeply as I had studied the Hindu epics before) nor scientific-based (as it REJECTS all modern medicines).

Pogrom...
...works fine used subjectively and for effect. Though it entered the common language describing Communist (and I think even Czarist) Russian attacks on Jews, it does not refer exclusively to genocidal undertakings. Literally, "like thunder."

Science is morally neutral, or oblivious, as Bathus emphasizes. Science is what we make of it, and our ideological preferences or prejudices ultimately restrict our understanding of it, as they do nearly everything else. We need only look at the "global warming" debate to understand how we allow ideological prejudice to interfere with our interpretation of natural and unnatural phenomena.

Mr. Goldberg,
I like the ending to your column:

"This is the beauty and curse of science: It tends to undermine the cherished positions and assumptions of everyone, even those who claim to be its champions. Perhaps that's one reason we shouldn't derive our values from such a moving target in the first place."

All "issues" generally have the same genealogical progession. They proceed from "fact" to "value" then "policy".

Of course science plays a critical role in getting at the facts. We tend, however, to be a bit culturally disorganized when it comes to moral debate and resolution. Policy is fraught with peril when these two tap roots lack depth and consistency.

That is why every advance in science must be matched with an increase in our understanding. Otherwise science becomes not merely a moving target but perhaps more of a tower of babel.



Everything but neutral
Most of the "science", both valid and junk, is anything but neutral. It is usually motivated by greed somewhere down the line.
If there were all these cures just waiting in the wings available only by embryonic stem cells, then why does it not receive funding by big pharma who could really cash in on the patents?
I think the answer lies in the fact that it is just another crayfish hole to put more of our hard earned $ into.
Not that a the "science" is a crayfish hole, but the result must appear to be the same to big pharma...

Knowledgeable humans vs. emotion.
I do not have a big problem with scientists taking a moral position on the potential impacts of discoveries. Who better knows the potential impact of these discoveries. I have a greater problem with non-scientists using cherry picked research to support their own moral agenda without knowing what they are talking about.

The anti-ESCR group selectively deals with the destruction of an embryo for research while promoting fertility clinics because they believe it is good for families. Fertility clinics destroy hundreds of embryos in the pursuit of a single child for a single couple.

I would rather a scientist highlight their view of the potential impacts of the use of a few hundred embryos for the potential assistance for millions, or the downside of paying for genetic selection of embryos for implantation, or cloning, or the potential effects of global warming and its causes than someone on this site telling me ESCR is murder and not disparaging the source of those embyos.




liberalgoodperson
Learned a new word have we?
Blastula?!
Well I guess that you didn't learn that "blastulas" grow into 5 year old boys and therefore missed his point.
Who will it harm?
Good question.
Better is "Who will it help?".
I guess your answer is all know maladies.
No science to back up that it will cure ANY known maladies.

et al
Rush hates libs when they put up Mike J Fox to support stem cell research. He feels it is unfair and how do you argue against that. Coulter hates libs for the same reason, its an unfair argument.

I don't see where the unfairness is. Put Fox or some other Parkinsons sufferer on a stage. Put a 4 inch petri dish with a 16 cell clump of potential human in it and ask the audience to find the human.

When they attest that both are human, they will only look foolish, but they will be true to their beliefs.

BHL...
...put me up beside a man with no arms or legs and when I ask "which one is human",you will answer "both of them".I suppose you will look foolish.

Nam65-66
Thanks for saying that.

I was just to stunned at the moment.

BHL, Mikey Fox admitted to being off of his meds to heighten the effect.

BHL
Your example would be fine if the petri dish had sperm or an egg, but then it falls apart. Once they meet, you have human life. End of discussion.

If you'd care to repudiate this, please fire away.

Kindly provide an alternate explanation for when human life begins and at what point we can put two different stages of human life side-by-side and declare one to be human and one not to be human. It's a rather slippery slope, but I'm looking forward to seeing you slide down it at warp speed.

nevada
I am a surgeon and have seen an awful lot. I have seen microscope slides, pictures and actual specimens of the actual "stages" of fetal development. I say "stages" in quotes because these are all constructs of man devised to classify and quantify. You have very elegantly stated the obvious: there is no other exact point, no lightning bolt moment, no life-giving spark other than the fusion of sperm and egg. The instant they fuse there is an electric discharge and an immediate change from two entities into one, inseparable. Human DNA nearly instantly. You will see the libs twist themselves into arguments about viability or morally significant life or about the mother's choice. What they cannot do is what you have asked of BHL. Thank you for your eloquence.

It's about the value of life
A couple of decades ago we decided we didn't value babies in the womb. Today we decide we don't value blastulas or embryos, tomorrow we decide we don't value 80-year-olds or 18-year-olds. Where does that stop?

As for cherry-picking scientific data -- well, here's the thing. Those who are pro-ESCR do the same thing as the anti-ESCR folks. Whenever science steps into morality, it's bound to have people taking sides. And while the science itself may be neutral, the people judging its value are not. And, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You have made a MORAL judgment that certain forms of human life are not valuable. I've made a MORAL judgment that ALL forms of human life ARE valuable. Our moral judgments are bound to affect our view of the value of the science we're discussing.

And, by the way, fertility clinics (those who do the in vitro stuff) -- I oppose them. In fact, a quick perusal of my Christian friends and acquaitenances tells me that many (perhaps most) pro-life people oppose this type of infertility treatment. I'm all for doctors being able to treat infertility problems, but I'm opposed to human beings playing God to create children and then making a value judgment that certain of those children are not worth living.

I find that most liberals (pro-"choice") strongly advocate for fertility clinics of this type and call me primative for opposing them. Why do you think that is? Perhaps it is so they can then turn around and accuse pro-life advocates of being anti-life because we don't think you should destroy embryos in a questionable scientific process with highly speculative outcome. It is to their advantage for such clinics to exist. It gives them a rich harvest for the experiments they advocate.

Get the point? Life is valuable! Maybe it isn't to you, but I think if the majority of Americans were asked a straight question about it, they'd come down on the side of saying "Life is too valuable to play games with it!"

A moral test
Science is concerned about seeing and understanding the physical world as it IS, not as it "should" be it is amoral. This doesn't mean that scientists can't or don't have moral values. Some don't, some do.

There is no doubt in my mind and should not be in yours that the research will happen. There is no ban on embryonic stem cell research, just on the use of public money to fund it. Scientists will do this research, since it is legal in this country and in others.

Here is my Moral, not Scientific point of view:

We can agree that life begins at the moment of inception. Or even before. Both the sperm and egg before they meet are both living cells. So I agree with those who say a "potential life" is destroyed if an embryo is used to establish a line of stem cells for research.

I just don't feel the same way about that loss of life as I do about an abortion. While I am against almost all abortions, I don't have a problem with the use of embryonic stem cells in a laboratory for research.

I see much potential good that can come from that and no real harm living children or adults. The fact that cells with similar potential can be harvested from other media such as amniotic fluid doesn't change my mind. As I pointed out, those cells are alive too.

In the world of science and technology, the jury is still out on whether any method of harvesting stem cells will be suitable for all of the purposes to which they can be used. Technology and economics will determine which methods of obtaining them are the most effective and efficient.

HERE IS A TEST:

1) Do my beliefs make me evil in your eyes?

2) Does anyone believe that if embryonic stem cell research were to lead to a cure for a disease that only people who agree or paid for stem cell research should have access to that cure?

If you answer no to either of these questions, then I think it is hypocritical (whether moral or not) to argue that public money should not be used for embryonic stem cell research.

Liberalgoodman
Somehow, that name strikes me as an oxymoron. You might try, destructiveliberalman, or liberalbadman or even liberaldumbf8ck.

"Embrionic stem cells are harvested from blastulas. A blastula is a collection of a small number of undifferentiated cells. These blastulas come from fertility clinics and would be thrown out otherwise."

This reminds me of that 50's movie, 'I was a teenage Frankenstein', one of my favorites of the genre. Witt Bissell was great as Dr. Frankenstein. With regard to his experimentation to produce a being from body parts, the excess of which were thrown into a pit alive with alligators, he's quoted "In this laboratory there is no death until I declare it so".

The difference between your blastula and the Dr.'s body parts is merely a period of growth. Why not just allow the blastula to grow and harvest the parts - that can be done artificially. And why should anyone be squeemish about participating tax-wise in this most noble, humanitarian venture - afterall, someone will benefit. Too bad about that matured blastula - but that didn't count anyway.

Liberalgoodman
"These blastulas come from fertility clinics and would be thrown out otherwise."

I wonder if you've considered what would happen if we DID find that we could cure a particular disease from embryonic stem cells. This is unlikely, given the disastrous results of the research done so far, but for the sake of argument suppose we make such a discovery.

In all likelihood, in such a case the embryos from fertility clinics that would "be thrown out otherwise" would no longer be enough. We would then have to manufacture embryos specifically to provide the cure.

Can you see a moral difference between creating multiple embryos in the hope that one of them may live and grow, and creating embryos specifically for the purposes of harvesting their stem cells and then destroying them?

MStone, I don't understand
I thought the purpose of the "lines" established from ESCR or amniotic stem cells, or whatever, are to create a supply of cells.

Also, that the stem cells are used to identify the cure doesn't necessarily mean the stem cells will be the delivery mechanism for the "cure."

Science and ethics: not in opposition
It's unfortunate that ideologues so seldom bother to do research on topics in which they are interested. One of the biggest myths going is that science is some sort of godless, monstrous undertaking that threatens all things good, whether human or divine.

A little research would have shown Goldberg that many scientists are deeply interested in ethical issues. Here are some locations, for those of you who might want to read something besides conservative ranting.


The first two examples here are sites containing lots of materials concerned with the ethics of science and scientists, and ethical disputes related to science.

http://www.csu.edu.au/learning/eis/ethxonline.html

Science Ethics Resources on the Net

http://www.csu.edu.au/learning/eis/ethics.html

Ethics in Science


Here is an open directory listing a lot of sites; something to intrigue (and probably lots to offend) people, but the conclusion I derive is that many people interested in science are also interested in ethics.

http://dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Ethics/Applied/Science_and_Technology/

While I know that conservatives diss the AAAS as a matter of reflex, I suggest some of you actually take a look at this thoughtful and coherent resource on science and religion issues.

http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/

The Evolution Dialogues: Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding


Here is a review from the “Christian Science Monitor” of a book by eminent physicist Freeman Dyson, whose views might surprise conservatives who like to demonize scientists:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1219/p14s01-bogn.html

Finally, if you think that people interested in science must be atheists, check this out, from the University of Hannover (Germany)Center for Philosophy and Ethics of Science, one of the presentations in that university's prestigious
Leibniz Lecture Series.

Professor Adolf Grünbaum
University of Pittsburgh, USA
Th, 6-26-2003

Do the most fundamental laws of nature require a theistic explanation?

Unfortunately, the content of Grünbaum's lecture isn't published here. It will appear in the online Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy eventually.

Now of course, some of you have gotten bored long before now; knowing that you already know everything you need to know, you don't have to read about anything that might challenge your views. That's why you're ideologues. For those of you who might retain some intellectual curiosity, enjoy.







Gestell
I beg to differ but the mindless ranting is coming from your side. It's like everything the liberals want: dismiss the ethical concerns and logic, then spin their approach with media supplied emotionally sympathetic anecdotes, and obfuscate the issues with incessant sound bites and slogans.

The most salient aspect of your sites is that every one of them is a liberal supporter or a very biased advocate. The CS Monitor is little more than a socialist sob sheet and the educational institutions, liberal/leftist as they are, have a very vested interest in cornering as much gov't research money as they can.

One futher point: there's no limit to what liberals think gov't should rob from it citizens to pay for projects and programs they want and will benefit from. Already, 60 to 80 percent of the Fed's budget is spent on programs it has no constitutional authority to be involved with. As little as 80 years ago, it would have been thought ridiculous any such level of Fed spending could be possible, or for the purposes for which it is spent. It's a tribute to the ingenuity of this nations citizens and genius of the constitution that the population is able to keep up with the obscene levels of congressional spending.

But this is all just ranting to be shrugged of by those of you who have such noble purposes.

wondering
The fact that cells with similar potential can be harvested from other media such as amniotic fluid doesn't change my mind. As I pointed out, those cells are alive too.

umm i was under the impression once the amniotic sack ruptures all of the fluid and the cells it contains die after a few minutes in open air. IN fact the amniotic cells are not alive as they are neither part of the mother nor the fetus if i understand them right. And as for cells being alive thousands if not millions of your cells die every day so why are we getting squeamish about dead cells

Stem cell research has show some promise thou. I have heard they have used some of the research to get paralyzes rats to walk again will need to look up that report and will post it as soon as i find it. If this is true then this is some of the potential of

reply to Grubby
So you really don't have any counterarguments to anything you might have found on the sites I included, do you? You've decided that because you find the sponsors to be "liberal," you don't even have to consider anything more.

I was trying to make the point that it is a really idiotic mistake for conservatives to assume that scientists are unethical monsters. You managed to find a way to veer off into the usual conservative rant about government spending, which was not a primary concern of Goldberg's column.

I conclude that you're just another conservative who doesn't know jack about how to argue.
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