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Wednesday, September 27, 2006
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
When push comes to torture
by Jonah Goldberg
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When confronted with the assertion that the Soviet Union and the United States were moral equivalents, William F. Buckley responded that if one man pushes an old lady into an oncoming bus and another man pushes an old lady out of the way of a bus, we should not denounce them both as men who push old ladies around.

In other words, context matters.

Not according to some. Led by Time magazine's Andrew Sullivan, opponents of the CIA's harsh treatment of high-value terrorists have grown comfortable comparing Bush's America to, among other evils, Stalin's Russia.

The tactic hasn't worked, partly because many decent Americans understand that abuse intended to foil a murder plot is not the same as torturing political dissidents, religious minorities and other prisoners of conscience. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was not asked to renounce his faith or sign a false confession when he was reportedly waterboarded. His suffering wasn't intended as a form of punishment. The sole aim was to stop an ongoing murder conspiracy, which is what al-Qaida is. If accounts from such unbiased sources as ABC News' Brian Ross are to be believed, his suffering saved American lives.

Comparing CIA facilities to Stalin's gulag may sound righteous, but it is a species of the same moral relativism that denounces all pushers of old ladies equally.

Consider killing. In every society in the world, murder is punished more harshly than non-lethal torture. If I waterboard you, or lock you in my basement with Duran Duran blasting at you 24/7, even if I beat you for hours with a rubber hose, my punishment will be less severe than if I murder you, simply because it is worse to take a life deliberately than to cause pain, even sadistically. We all understand this. Would you rather take some lumps in a dungeon for a month, or take a dirt nap forever?

Yet, according to the torture prohibitionists, there must be a complete ban on anything that even looks like torture, regardless of context, even though we'd never dream of a blanket ban on killing.

One reason for this disconnect is that we've thought a lot about killing and barely at all about torture. Almost no one opposes killing in all circumstances; wars sometimes need to be fought, the hopelessly suffering may require relief, we reserve the right to self-defense. Indeed, the law recognizes a host of nuances when it comes to homicide, and the place where everybody draws an unambiguous line on killing is at something we call "murder."

But there is no equivalent word for murder when it comes to torture. It's always evil. Yet that's not our universal reaction. In movies and on TV, good men force evil men to give up information via methods no nicer than what the CIA is allegedly employing. If torture is a categorical evil, shouldn't we boo Jack Bauer on Fox's "24"? There's a reason we keep hearing about the ticking time bomb scenario in the torture debate: Is abuse justified in getting a prisoner to reveal the location of a bomb that would kill many when detonated? We understand that in such a situation, Americans would expect to be protected. That's why human-rights activists have tried to declare this scenario a red herring.

Sullivan complains that calling torture "aggressive interrogation techniques" doesn't make torture any better. Fair enough. But calling aggressive interrogation techniques "torture" when they're not doesn't make such techniques any worse.

Still, there is a danger that over time we may not be able to tell the difference.

Taboos are the glue of civilization because they define what is beyond the pale in ways mere reason cannot. A nation that frets about violating the rights of murder-plotters when the bomb is ticking is unlikely to violate the rights of decent citizens when the bomb is defused. I suspect this is what motivates so many human-rights activists to exaggerate the abuses and minimize their effectiveness. Slippery-slope arguments aren't as powerful as moral bullying. Still, their fears aren't unfounded. Once taboos have been broken, a chaotic search ensues for where to draw the new line, and that line, burdened with precedent and manufactured by politics, rarely holds as firmly as the last. But that is where history has brought us.

In the recent debate over torture, everybody decided to kick the can down the road on what torture is and isn't. This argument will be forced on us again, no matter how much we try to avoid it. We'll be sorry we didn't take the debate more seriously when we had the chance.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Hosekuervo
so, what does "being smart," entail? Can you be a little more specific? If we can save lives without being "mean," I would love to know how we can do that. Please be thorough in your response.

It's simple
The reason we shouldn't torture is simple.
I frankly don't care if we boil terrorists in oil after we castrate them. I'd say go for it, if it worked.
When you torture people, they give you bad intelligence-
When you get bad intelligence, you make bad decisions.
Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi was waterboarded until he said that Iraq was training terrorists in the use of biological weapons. The administration used this incorrect info as a cornerstone in their case for war. Later, it came out that there was no way that al Libbi could know this information.
The terrorists have cells in over 100 countries. We desperately need allies to win the war on terror. If we alienate them by torturing people, then that is just plain counter-productive.
This isn't about civils rights for terrorists or any of the nonsense that some on the right spew.
That's a load of crap, and you know it. It's about being smart and defeating the terrorists with our brains. Don't confuse being tough with being smart.
We've been trying TOUGH for a while now and we all see how well it's been working. Let's try smart for a change.

pushovers
Can't believe lefties. You think KSM was "tortured," and do you feel sorry for him???
Below is an example what real torture is. I received this email from Voice of the Martyrs on Sept 26.

"Five Christians Tortured While in Prison--China Aid Association--CAA has learned that after two weeks of detention, the police finally issued five of the 50 Christians who were arrested during a church demolition in Zhejiang Province, formal notification of "criminal detention." The five are accused of "interfering with duty of police officers." They were cruelly tortured during interrogation. Three suffered broken ribs. Female Christians were forced to strip in public.

I also received this notice: "The sole survivor of a radical Muslim attack on four Christian high school girls has successfully undergone medical treatment. When Noviana Malewa and her three friends were walking home from school on October 29, 2005, they were assaulted by a group of jihadists wielding machetes. Three of the girls were decapitated by the assailants, yet Noviana survived a severe slash to her head and neck in an unsuccessful beheading attempt. Today, Noviana still deals with emotional and physical torment from the brutal attack."

The above are what I consider "mild" stories, compared to some of the horrific stories coming out of some countries where Muslims, Communists, and Hindus are given free reign. KSM got off EASY. He's laughing at us.

JLEO
You are missing the point Mr. Doe. Fine, let's say, for the sake of argument, that waterboarding is torture. The point is: Causing someone mental or physical pain in order to prevent 1 - 1 million people from ACTUALLY being MURDERED is morally just. So, our job is to decide if torture (waterboarding) is acceptable if it prevents a MURDERER from MURDERING innocent people. If you don't understand that this is the central point, and that all other arguments are moot, you are hopelessly blind. Or maybe I missed your point?”

Two wrongs don’t make a right and anyway it is a post hoc fallacy as you are assuming that in all cases torture is being used to prevent a murder (and that it will never be abused by people in the system), and that it is torture in of itself that will prevent the murders.


”Now to argue with your definition of torture: I'll have to side with FergusMac and second that I too experienced worse (or at least the equivalent) in Marine Corps Boot Camp. I'll add, too, that I'm glad I did it, and I believe that I am a better, stronger person for having done it...but that's another story.”

Of course you volunteered for Boot Camp and were fully aware of the trials that awaited you, all that says is you are a masochist and it doesn’t take away from the fact that “torture” is propagated on the unwilling. KSM is undoubtedly a bad guy and torture may have offered up some actionable intel, but we also know that torture has offered up incorrect intel. We know one detainee in GITMO gave incorrect info on AQ’s attempts to acquire WMD material from Iraq; this intel was cited in the run-up to the war and as a result thousands of lives have been lost and altered.

Hey Donald
In a war with thugs who do not wear uniforms, how do you know they are civilians?

By the way, until you point out the lie Bush told, it is YOU who are the liar.

Kimberly
you wrote:

"What plots, exactly, have been foiled with KSM's so-called "confessions"??

Well, a plot to bomb the tallest tower in downtown Los Angeles, for one. Does that count?

Check out
The new essay on my blog, right on topic (which is why I posted it a couple of days earlier than planned) entitled "My name is Hassan".

Just click on my name (above).

So what IS torture, anyway?
We give a jihadist three square meals a day and give him food that meets his dietary requirements (Was any Orthodox Jewish prisoner ever given kosher food in a Muslim prison?), shelter and comfortable surroundings. We even give him a prayer rug and a Koran. Would denying access to a clock, a compass and a map, making it impossible for him to determine Mecca's direction, be defined as torture?
Are we following the European standard which pretty much lists any "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" as torture?
It would mean modifying our interrogation tactics according to the prisoner.
Queen would be verboten. You can't even play a song like "We Will Rock You" without worrying that you are being cruel.
Muslims are threatened by women. Bring Playboy and the most beautiful women into the interrogation room and surround the prisoner with them until he tells the questioner what he wants to know. No one would lay a hand on the prisoner, but something that his mullah has said is terrible for Islam (looking at nude women) would be his fate.
Europeans would consider that torture. So would Nancy Pelosi.
The idea that passing a law defining the limits of interrogation would put our soldiers at risk is poppycock. A civilian, Daniel Pearl, wasn't just beheaded. He was cut into ten pieces. We are expected to believe that defining our own limits will make it worse for our soldiers. Which of the jihadists has abided by anything resembling the Geneva Conventions since this war against us began a few decades ago? Now even armed soldiers aren't safe. If they shoot someone who isn't pointing a gun directly at them, even if they are in the heat of battle, they risk being branded as war criminals.
If this is a war, when are we going to treat it like one and define the enemy without fear of political correctness?
Either we take no prisoners or we leave dar-al-Islam and place a total ban on Muslim travel to dar-al-Harb. Where is the middle ground when clerics told the pope that the only dialogue they were interested in was one that discussed our conversion to Islam? Jihadists are playing for keeps. Why aren't we? More to the point, why CAN'T we?

Leroy: you cracked me up
"Harsh words". I loved it!

"Hassan! Is that a HEAD in your hands? You, into Time Out until I tell you to come to the dinner table!"

Yeah, THAT'LL work.

Maybe "civilian" like you, not me
Don,
Why were these choir boys of yours arrested? You're telling me GW just took a stroll down the street pointing out random people for his gulags. And the CIA does all this in foreign countries with no local help? And they have all had bamboo shoots stick under their finger nails (steady GunnyG, I know you're digging this part).

The question is what is torture? You want torture to be as simple as just hurting someones feelings or what? How in the world to you expect to get any information if there is not some form of threat involved?

"You better talk or I'm gonna use some REAL HARSH words, well not about your religon or your culture or anything that may offend you, but mark my words I'm gonna say some stuff".

I'm not advocating burning any of them at the stake, yet, but you had better have something up your sleeve that they ain't gonna like and you better be ready to use it. If not they'll just sit there and flip you off while their buddies cut your buddies throats.

Is this pretty? No, but this is a very serious endeavor we are in.

Is it necessary? Not if you can figure out how to make harsh words work. Until then we had better be willing to do something.

Donaldd: what?!?
You wrote: "Is ain't military being tortured by Bush. They're civilians like you and me."

Speak for yourself, bud. I don't know about you, but I don't run around with an AK shooting at innocent civilians, and sawing off people's heads.

You wrote: "82 Innocent people tortured some died in custody. You could be next."

I could be next, if I ran around with an AK and sawed off people's heads. Price of doing business. As to the ones who died in custody: well, maybe they should have thought of that before they ran around with an AK... well, you get the picture.

The rest of your comment was unintelligible gibberish, the meaning of which was indiscernable.


Jleo
God put guys like Donaldd here to keep us entertained.

Saxx
Sorry, looked at the addressee, not the addressor.

Donaldd
Excellent rebuttal! Inbred? I thought we were all rich, hated the poor and were too frigid for sexual activity. Wow, I don't even know myself. Thanks again for keeping me informed. Now, where's my sister? I have some lost time to make up.

Donaldd
It's nice to hear from the low temperature IQ folks, and especially entertaining to get a peek into the insane world of the whacko inbred brothers. I didn't know you folks had a computer out there in the forest.

Donaldd
I must apologize. I didn't address your points specifically.
Why were these "civilians" picked up by the CIA from their homes targeted in the first place? The best reasonable claim you can make is that the CIA received faulty intelligence. The most likely scenario, however, is that they couldn't gather enough hard evidence to prosecute them. This does not make them innocent like me, it means they got lucky.
Since you apparently have the inside scoop, I would like to know how a few of these innocent civilians died in prison or in transport. Were they shot? Were they beaten to death? If so, how is it that we prosecuted those responsible for taking pictures of Iraqis in "humiliating" poses, but are unable to prosecute those responsible for supposedly murdering innocent civilians?
Oh, right, because George Bush is the Devil and everybody else is a peace-loving, law abiding care bear. Got it.

Donaldd
So, you believe conspiracy theories claiming the CIA and George Bush are out to destroy the world, but Saddam Hussien, a known dictator and murderer, is incapable of supporting terrorism or seeking to hide WMD's from the world. Obviously, your worldview is skewed to put it lightly.

All I ask is that you write your favorite Democrat senator and encourage them to say exaclty what you just said in the public forum. If it's so true, the democrats will surely win back the political power you believe they so rightly deserve.

Torture
Once again Jonah Goldberg gets right down to the nitty gritty.

Keep up the good work Jonah!

my definition of torture
If after 30 minutes of the 'torture' a physical examination of the suspect could not reveal what was done, its not torture. It may be termed 'abuse' but its not torture.

Sleep depravation, loud music and waterboarding(which is psychological because they won't let them drown) are not torture.

Hand wring all you like, the enemy is counting on it.

Of course defining WHEN to do it is a vastly different discussion. We must be *sure* before we use such techniques, but to save lives they should be used.

JLeo and Fergus...
... are exactly right. I always crack up when I hear the libs squawking about what they define as "torture", then take a stroll down Memory Lane to my own experiences in Basic Training. What a joke!

And if you Lefties think that's torture, don't ever saddle up for a combat tour (yeah, like THAT would ever happen).

JLeo is absolutely right
This is what the libs claim they are afraid of? How disingenuous.

How can the treatment of our servicemen be degraded beyond being decapitated, arms and legs amputated, and genitals being cut off??? Civilian contractors' burned bodies dragged through the streets, hung from a bridge? Give me a break!

Good for you Sept12Rep!

Laura Root

JLeo is right on the money...
Waterboarding to save innocents from being brutally murdered by terrorists is completely justified. Whatever means are needed to pry information from terrorists is justified. Having said that, please note that I'm speaking about murdering brain-dead terrorists and not legitimate soldiers captured in battle. Of course, the American people would not tolerate torturing a soldier who was simply fighting for his country but was captured. That's the point of the Geneva Convention. It does not cover ununiformed murders (aka terrorists). I see nothing wrong with waterboarding a terrorist that could get information to save six year Susie and her family's lives while driving through the Holland Tunnel. Do you?

I must add...
because I can smell the argument coming (I can smell it I tell you!), that treating our prisoners of war harshly will in NO WAY whatsoever degrade the treatment that our servicemen receive when captured. All servicemen know that they will probably be tortured if captured, in fact we are trained in how to "handle" it. Our enemy is remorseless and their goal is not noble. You cannot expect kind gestures to be reciprocated when dealing with this kind of enemy.

in college
I'll tell you what I'm taught in college. All we have to do is be tolerant of everything and be good little socialists who work for the common good. That's all there is to it in a liberal's mind.

Re: John Doe
You are missing the point Mr. Doe. Fine, let's say, for the sake of argument, that waterboarding is torture. The point is: Causing someone mental or physical pain in order to prevent 1 - 1 million people from ACTUALLY being MURDERED is morally just. So, our job is to decide if torture (waterboarding) is acceptable if it prevents a MURDERER from MURDERING innocent people. If you don't understand that this is the central point, and that all other arguments are moot, you are hopelessly blind. Or maybe I missed your point?
Simply because you define something as torture doesn't mean that the just are not justified in using it to save the lives of innocent people.

Now to argue with your definition of torture: I'll have to side with FergusMac and second that I too experienced worse (or at least the equivalent) in Marine Corps Boot Camp. I'll add, too, that I'm glad I did it, and I believe that I am a better, stronger person for having done it...but that's another story.

Sep12Repub: Good for you!
Outstanding! Too bad more people won't do it.

Spare the rod, spoil the terrorist
When you look in the eyes of someone who hates you so much, do you think the Red Cross treatment is going to get you the information you want. After you clean the spit off you face, you know it's going to be one of those days when the enemy combatant is the one who thinks he's holding the cards because of the activist groups stationed there to see they get the royal treatment. Remove the tools needed to get the information and your just running a hotel for enemy combatants. Not one enemy combatant is trained or skilled enough to withstand any type of techniques used to get information. Usually after a few minutes, the enemy combatant is already talking. The torture, the bleeding hearts are thinking about is what they see on TV. By the time the enemy combatants are questioned, their stomachs are turning so much, and their imaginations has gotten the best of their anticipation of what is yet to come, it only takes a few minutes of questioning to get what you want. Waiting for the pain they think is coming because you have the tools in which to get the information, is worst then death to them. When an enemy combatant knows they can't be touched because of peace activists. Expect riots, spit, feces thrown at guards, and home make weapons attacks.

Confrontation

My office is located within two blocks of the local federal building, a favorite gathering place every few weeks for the anti-war protestors. Until this month, I've made it my practice to avoid these people. No longer.

I most recently encountered an organized protest a few weeks back. The signs being waved all read "Torture is Terrorism" and "Shut it Down" (meaning Gitmo, of course). I don't know what caused me to do so, most likely it was the many sensible posts that I've been reading on TH, but this time I crossed the street in order to confront the sign bearers.

I wonder if my experience is typical. Instead of an argument, I was most surprised by the fact that these people had absolutely nothing to say in response to my challenge. Even eye contact was difficult to establish. Now I'm a big guy, but I truly don't believe that I was in any way threatening. My sense is that these pacifists, at least the ones I encountered, have never actually been questioned about their views, and they were not at all prepared for an argument.

I intend, from here on out, not to walk silently past these protests, and will be very curious to find out if this past experience was unique. Prehaps I just happened upon the wallflower squad of ANSWER.

In any event, for those who can spare the time, I encourage you to do the same.

john doe
If you truly believe that, then you better get on the horn to your senator to complain about the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, and West Point, cuz guess what they're all doing to their cadets as part of the process of training officers...

Personally, I feel that nothing that isn't too good for the best young Americans, is too good KSM and his buddies.

Isn't it funny how the libs used to be the "There's no such thing as moral absolutes" crowd?

Ok, so be it
We have to define torture. Andrew Sullivan says that waterboarding, basically convincing someone that they're about to drown, is torture. Is Jonah Goldberg saying that it isn't? 'Cuz I think that everyone knows that it is. . .

WHEN A MAN
Wearing a black mask comes to your door asking for donations to support Islam be sure to ask him what his thoughts are about torture, then duck real fast or else your head will be on the ground looking up at you. What ever it takes is OK with me.
Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.

Well, I for one,
don't really have a problem with torture in the proper context.

It's interesting that a lot of the libs think Oregon's new assisted suicide law is just grand, but worry that some poor terrorist a-hole is going to be forced to listen to Britney Spears.

We can poke a hole in the skull of a partially-born baby and suck out its brains, but you'd better make sure Hassan has his three hots and a cot, and a prayer rug, with the direction of Mecca painted on the floor, OR ELSE!

Y'know, it must be he11 to be a liberal; I can't begin to imagine what it must sound like inside their heads.
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