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Friday, August 29, 2008
Jon Sanders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Lying is Moral When Your God is Electing Democrats
by Jon Sanders
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Called "the definitive Democratic insider" by The News & Observer of Raleigh, campaign adviser Gary Pearce has worked for several notable North Carolina Democrats, from Sen. John Edwards to four-time Gov. Jim Hunt, former Lt. Gov. Dennis Wicker, and Senate candidate Erskine Bowles (who was White House Chief of Staff under President Bill Clinton and is now the president of the University of North Carolina).

Right now Pearce co-writes the "Talking About Politics" blog about politics with longtime Republican adviser Carter Wrenn (whose clients included the late Sen. Jesse Helms). Pearce recently told the N&O, "I'm willing to be more candid than are most partisans. I'm not spinning anybody anymore."

That candidness was on display this month when this definitive Democratic insider wrote the following: "liberals (or progressives or whatever you prefer) have to understand that your candidates don’t have the luxury of the right-wingers: They can’t always say exactly what they believe — and still get elected."

In case you think Pearce isn't saying what it sounds like he's saying, he sums it up: "In politics, as Winston Churchill once said about war, victory sometimes requires a bodyguard of lies."

Please note. American politics isn't war. Our Founders have handed us down a system that is noteworthy for many things, among them the peaceful transition of power (sloganized as "Ballots, not bullets").

Furthermore, this is not at all to suggest that Republicans haven't fibbed during an election. After all, "Read my lips" — the most infamous preamble to a campaign whopper — was of GOP origin. And besides, it is an irreplaceable Christian doctrine that all people sin, and by extension, that lying is human nature. In that respect politicians may be the most human among us.

But a line is crossed when lying goes beyond human fallibility and campaign hubris and becomes instead a deliberate strategy. That line is what separates recognizing that there is truth and a moral law above our mundane affairs that must be upheld and seeking power by any means necessary not beholden to any morality except that of your own whimsy that day.

Conservatives believe lying is wrong. Numerous studies have shown that conservatives are far more honest than political "liberals" (something author and researcher Peter Schweitzer calls the "honesty gap"). As author Bruce Walker pointed out, 60 percent of Americans consistently identify themselves as conservative; in short, "Conservatives are not just a majority of Americans, but an utterly overwhelming majority of all Americans." To extrapolate, the number of Americans who prize honesty greatly surpass those who don't.

So yes, leftists don't have the "luxury" of being able to tell voters, who believe lying is wrong, that they think it's OK to lie to get elected. You see, getting elected is the god of the Left from which all morality flows. Truth to them is not an abstract concept, necessarily apolitical, reflecting the nature of the God who spoke creation into being; to the Left, "truth" is what serves the god of getting elected, in that any word spoken today that pleases the god, even if it is completely counter to yesterday's words in service to the same god, is still "true."

When Michelle Obama spoke at the Democratic National Convention, bloggers such as at Gateway Pundit remarked on her lifting of sentiments from radical leftist Saul Alinsky's book Rules for Radicals. That should have been no surprise. Both her husband and his Democratic foe, Sen. Hillary Clinton, admit being inspired and influenced by Alinksy. Barack Obama's Alinskian roots appear to run deeper than just topical influence.

Alinsky wrote in his Rules: "An organizer working in and for an open society is in an ideological dilemma. To begin with, he does not have a fixed truth — truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing. He is a political relativist."

A political relativist is someone who will lie to you for his own political gain. He also — and this is important — is someone who believes that lying for political gain is a moral act. Pearce's statement came in the context of praising former N.C. Gov. Terry Sanford, who told voters that he opposed integration in order to "becom[e] one of the South’s most progressive governors on race [and even] sent his own children to an integrated school."

But beware the justification! As the late Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote in Book One of The Gulag Archipelago, "To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good, or else that it's a well-considered act in conformity with natural law." When someone deliberately does evil in the name of good, he justifies it in ideology. Solzhenitsyn found that justification at work among the agents of the Inquisition, the Nazis, the Jacobin, and of course the Soviets.

Not that those extreme horrors are a necessary result of an ideology of lying for political gain. The consequences are usually of a more mundane variety, which can still devastate. See, for example, this month's political implosion of Pearce's former client John Edwards, who thoroughly deceived family, friends, voters, donors, volunteers, campaign workers, media, and mistress, and whose fumbling for justification after the fact yielded that memorable bleat, one last, weak stab at deception: "Being 99 percent honest is no longer enough."

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About The Author
Jon Sanders is a policy analyst and research editor at the John Locke Foundation in Raleigh, N.C.

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Ed Wallis
Thanks for the warning about AndyR, but as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't necessary. He seems to enjoy making a fool of himself, and I enjoy watching him.

Either he's finally given up, or maybe he finally realized that I was jerking his chain.

Liberals same same muslims
"A political relativist is someone who will lie to you for his own political gain. He also — and this is important — is someone who believes that lying for political gain is a moral act."

Wow, looks like liberals practice "taquia" just like muslim apologists. No wonder they haven't the stomach to confront islamic evil.

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

DO NOT FEED THE AndyR TROLL

Another lie from AndyR
"Clinton lied about his private life, not WMDs or uranium."

No, you didn't give Clinton a pass, did you? Liar!

AndyR, the liar
"That's funny, a minute ago you claimed that you didn't say that."

I was admitting to a mistake. I don't expect you to understand that, since you are completely incapable of doing it.

You haven't explained your lies about me. I never even discussed Islam on this thread. Why did you attribute that quote to me?

More lies from AndyR
"I can't believe you just brought up your favourite dictator again in another thread!"

When did I ever say Hitler was my favorite dictator? Another lie.

"I don't give Clinton a free pass"

I said you gave Clinton a pass, not a free pass. You admitted as much yourself. If you're such a stickler for exact quotes, why didn't you quote me accurately?
Why do you keep lying about me?

P.S. See, I can play these semantic games, too.

Add
and you are the enemy of the truth.

Ken
"Okay, I did say you give Clinton a pass"

That's funny, a minute ago you claimed that you didn't say that. More lies... Why not continue this argument by making up both sides of the conversation yourself? Have fun.

It has nothing to do with logic,
or whether You choose not to believe or not.

Gravity still is, whether you ignore it or not.

Yours is the fairy tale that you cling to in spite of the truth. The truth is the enemy of your fairy tale.

AndyR
"And where are the atheists on the subject of radical Islam?...silent."

The above quote was from somebody named "Kent" who lives in Florida. My name is Ken, and I live in Virginia. Quit lying about me, or learn how to read.

AndyR
Okay, I did say you give Clinton a pass - because you did. Why did you lie and say you didn't give him a pass?

"And where are the atheists on the subject of radical Islam?...silent."

Where did I ever say that? I don't even recall discussing that subject. You're lying about me again.

Ken
"And where are the atheists on the subject of radical Islam?...silent."

Simply false. Google the word 'islam' with the name of any of these atheists and you'll get articles with them slamming the religion:
Johann Hari
Sam Harris
Richard Dawkins
Christopher Hitchens

Ken: "Notice how AndyR rakes Republicans over the coals for their so-called "lying", ... yet he gives Bill Clinton a pass"
AndyR: "I don't give Clinton a free pass,"
Ken: "I never said you did."
Hmm...

Ken: "You seemed to agree with the quote. Are you saying that you do not?"
What do you mean agree with the quote? You mean do I blame Christianity for the Nazis? Of course not. And I made that quite clear in the original thread.

JimP: "That is false. They can't help but hate the true "God.""
It isn't false, it's simple logic. We don't believe in a deity, so we can't hate one. You're like a fairy-believer saying that non-believers can't help but hate the 'true fairies'.

LIberalism, Communism, Humanism,
Secularism, is a 'God' problem.

Using terms like 'mental illness' misses the mark set the dialog up for failure.


The problem with anyone who exchanges the 'fountain of truth' for polluted wells is not mentally ill but is depraved.

Liberalism is a Mental Illness
It is odd that Liberals and especially Liberal Women are so angry and hostile. Their views are truly strange, as it is of the left, generally.

They all in Unison Support and in fact, encourage Promiscuity among our youth, who then become pregnant and/or get Sexually Transmitted Diseases, and then they Come to the rescue, and encourage Abortions, and Free Government Health Care to treat their Sexually Transmitted Diseases, and of course, the government knows best, so these treatments for pregnant children can all be done without parental knowledged or consent. Government Becomes The Parental Authority. This is Communism.

This has been the Liberal Democrat Model since the 1960's. Create Victims with Government Programs, then Rescue The Victims from Victimhood with other Government Sponsored Programs.

Then, these same Abortion Advocates fund Abortions with Public Funds, and then Get Out and Demonstrate Against Capital Punishment for Child Rapists and Murderers.

This insane philosophy is truly the mark of Evil. How can you justify the murder of Unborn Children, and at the same time, Cry for Justice and Leniency for Murderers and Rapists of children and others when they are about to pay for their crimes with their lives.

Conservatives value the lives of babies more than the lives of rapists and murderers.

And, these Liberals, believe that Terrorists being held by our government, have the same rights as a United States Citizen.

It is no wonder the Liberal Democrate Women and others are so bitter. They have Split-Personalities, and are truly confused all the time.

Obama is a Marxist Puppet
ACORN is where Obama got his early Marxist and Fraudulent Experience. Bill Ayers, the Terrorist, was involved in that early training of Obama in Marxist and Criminal activities. Remember the Marxist Doctrine says, "By Whatever Means Necessary to Get the Desired Results of Power and to Topple The Existing Government or Other Authority." Fraud, Deceit and Criminal Activity is not only acceptable, but are the key tools used by Marxists. You have to instill fear and hatred of the establishment.

Look at the entire Obama campaign so far. They and the MSM are trying to Stir Up Hate and Loathing for Our President and other leaders.

Obama learned his Methods from Terrorist Bill Ayers, rev. Wright, and others. Now, he has the Mainstream Media, promoting this same hatred and encouraging fear and hate.

ACORN is and has always been about promoting Marxism, and uses the tactics of Fraud, Deceit and Criminal Activities. Their aim was to get
their Candidates into Seats of Power. They, the Marxists and ACORN, got Obama, their Puppet elected to the Illinois State Senate, and then on to Washington as a U.S. Senator, and now they are Trying to Sell Him as President with the Same Old Marxist Tactics.

Well, These Marxists did not realize that Their Ignorant speeches and Tactics will Not Work On People Who Know Better.

We are sending Obama and His Marxist Mentors and Backers a message on Nov. 4. Go Home Obama. Chicagos Criminal Government needs you. We, the people of America, do not.

Add,
,that is, live in their lie in peace.

AndyR,
Sorry but I will jump in.

You, "Atheists aren't 'God hating', any more than they are 'fairy hating' or 'Santa Claus hating'. They don't believe in a God, therefore they can't hate God."

That is false. They can't help but hate the true "God."

The true "God" will not let them live in their lie and because of that they will always hate Him.


AndyR
"I don't give Clinton a free pass,"

I never said you did. I accused you of making excuses for Clinton - which you did. Why are you lying about me?

"You took a claim that a Nazi made about himself, and said that I made that claim myself."

You seemed to agree with the quote. Are you saying that you do not?

"And I asked you to clarify at the time whether you were quoting or paraphrasing."

I don't recall you raising such a question. Would you kindly document it?

"I'm starting to believe that you genuinely can't see the difference."

Gee, how will I sleep at night knowing that you think so lowly of me? (I'm being sarcastic).

"So I take it back, you are not a liar."

Apology accepted. Thank you.

"You are something else."

You're something else, too. I just haven't figured out what.

Andyr
You are clearly confused, most likely from the sour taste of the coolaid they keep telling you is sweet.

If atheists dont hate God, why do they want him out of the pledge of allegence, removed from government property, and so forth.
Hating the principals and doctrine of Christianity is not much separation from hating God.
And where are the atheists on the subject of radical Islam?...silent.

Ken
"I never said it was an EXACT quote."

If you put something in quote marks, as I do above, it means you're quoting exactly. And I asked you to clarify at the time whether you were quoting or paraphrasing. You never admitted that you were paraphrasing. Had you done so then I would have known that it was incompetence and not lies.

And it's not spin, Ken. Are you saying that the following two statements are the same:
1. "Hitler claimed to be a nice man."
2. "I think Hitler was a nice man."

I'm starting to believe that you genuinely can't see the difference. So I take it back, you are not a liar. You are something else.

Ken
It wasn't a slight misquote. You took a claim that a Nazi made about himself, and said that I made that claim myself. You accused me of holding the same opinions as Nazis. That's not a slight misquote.

I don't give Clinton a free pass, so drop the straw man. Clinton had a retard executed for a start. And don't get me started on Hillary. I haven't the time to go into his relative merits with Bush.

Bozo
Bozo, I could come up with some equally facile generalisation about all the Christians I know, but the truth is that most of them aren't as rude and unpleasant as you.

Perhaps you hate Allah, Woden, Zeus, Ganesh and all the Gods that you I assume you don't believe in. I hate Muslims forcing women to wear Burkhas, not Allah. It's misguided or evil men doing that, regardless of the pious authority they claim.

I know dozens and dozens of atheists - I've never met one who hates a being that he or she doesn't believe exists.

You may think atheists are actually secret believers. But that's just the flip side of the atheists who believe most Christians know deep down there's no God. I doubt there are many such people on either side.

In 35 years of (I'm sure even-handed) interviews, you don't seem to have grasped the meaning of the word 'atheist'. It simply means you don't think there's a God. Anyone who claims to hate God by definition isn't an atheist.

Shauna
Your apology is accepted. I wasn't offended by your statement, because I knew it was a case of mistaken identity.

Notice how AndyR rakes Republicans over the coals for their so-called "lying", and rakes me over the coals for a slight misquote, yet he gives Bill Clinton a pass. I think he's proven that he's the real liar.

AndyR
"Eventually Ken came up with the source, which - as expected - was completely different from the original quote."

I notice you didn't cite the actual quotes. I don't think most readers on TH would think they were so different.

"He even put it into quote marks to show that he wasn't paraphrasing, he was given an EXACT quote from me."

I never said it was an EXACT quote. Why are you lying about me?

"Note that I never said that Nazis WERE actually God-followers, merely that they claimed to be."

Talk about "spin"!

Getting back to the original point (which you are doing your best to get away from) you excoriate Republicans for their so-called "lying", and yet you make excuses for Bill Clinton. That doesn't say much for your honesty.

AndyR
I'm assuming you are an atheist. If not, you may correct my assumptions.

In the 35 years I have been interviewing self-described "atheists" I have seldom encountered any who, underneath the subterfuge, were not, in reality, God-haters masquerading as philosophers.

You may be one of the exception, but your posts indicate otherwise.

Bozo
I read your post fine, mate. My post stands.

Militant or otherwise, atheists don't hate God, cos they don't believe one exists. It's not nit-picking, it's a simple fact. It doesn't matter how 'hard' or 'militant' they are.

AndyR
Your reading comprehension skills need work.

Notice I said "militant atheists". That would be the God-hating faction of atheism, or as you might prefer, "hard" atheists.

But them again, in your rush to nit-pick, you miss the entire point anyway, but thanks for playing anyway.

AndyR
BTW, no-one's answering this question, though it's mentioned on this thread a few times. Ann Coulter accused McCain of being a liar. Which means either his is one, or she is. Which one is it?

Shauna
I'm not a moral relativist, or I wouldn't have such problems with the GOP. And my post about Ken is between him and me. HE knows what I'm talking about.

I was on another thread when he, out of nowhere, quoted me as saying something that I knew I'd never said. He even put it into quote marks to show that he wasn't paraphrasing, he was given an EXACT quote from me.

When pressed, Ken claimed it was from a completely different thread from weeks before. Convenient, as it makes it difficult to track down. So I gave him the chance to retract it, several times, but he kept lying and lying.

Eventually Ken came up with the source, which - as expected - was completely different from the original quote.

He basically took me saying that Nazis claimed that they followed God - followed by a quote from a Nazi to support my assertion, into AndyR believes that the Nazi movement was faith-based from beginning to end. Note that I never said that Nazis WERE actually God-followers, merely that they claimed to be.

This is a logical fallacy akin to me saying 'Hitler claimed to be a nice man' and Ken then weeks later, on a different thread, quoting me as insisting that Hitler was a nice man.

You are welcome to spin this as NOT being a lie on Ken's part.

Bozo
Atheists aren't 'God hating', any more than they are 'fairy hating' or 'Santa Claus hating'. They don't believe in a God, therefore they can't hate God.

Shauna
No, I think I was more accurate the second time, because I think that underneath the Liberals' quite obvious inability to address these issues honestly, there is ... are you ready for this?...SIN.

It's not a psychological disorder as much as it is a spiritual disorder.

Ask yourself, why is it that all of the God-haters find their home in the Liberal wing of the Democrat Party? The hard-core atheist, the militant homosexual, the activst secular progressive, etc.?

The syndrome is clearly spelled out, illustrates, and demonstrated in the pages of Scripture for those who are willing to look.

e.g.: "For he flatters himself in his own eyes, that his sin cannot be found out and hated." Prov. 36:2,

"For the light has come into the world but men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil, for everyone who does evil hated the light and does not come to the light lest their deeds should be exposed. " John 3:20

When I became a new believer years ago, one of the things that convinced me that I had not merely convinced myself, but has, in fact stumbled upon the Truth, was the fact that observable reality corresponded so accurately with the written Word.

Off Topic
Wow. This went way off topic. The point was and it bears repeating, that liberals cannot be elected if they tell the truth about what they believe in. Republicans don't have to lie about their core beliefs.

None of this back n forth junk about what Coulter said, or what Bush did etc changes that fact.

If obama tells us what he really believes in he totally loses all votes but the hard core leftists.

Bozo
Moral Relativist, like AndyR here, have no morals it turns out (that their whole relative part nixing the moral part). So we are thence back to your original post..."What psychological failing...." !!!

Lies
Sorry- Mr. Obama is a liar.
Mr. Clinton is a liar.
Mrs. Clinton is a liar.
So are Ms pelosi, Mr Reed, and Mr. Biden.
The Dem party leadership.
To all of them, the truth is relative to the ends they are trying to achieve. Deliberate twisting of the truth to make your point is a lie.

George Bush is not a liar. His father has never been a liar. I don't think John McCain is or ever has been a liar.

Some of y'all have a dang funny idea about what constitutes a lie.

AndyR
or should I be asking, "What MORAL failing..."?

AndyR
What psychological failing in you is it that so desperately needs to see George Bush as a liar and Bill Clinton as a man of principle?

Ken: Apologies
Dear Ken, In an earlier post of mine I reversed a heading and your name. My post was ABOUT what AndyR was saying about you - and about lying. I actually intended my comment to be about you...addressed to the dunce AndyR. Please forgive my mistake...with Palin as the VP pick I have been a bit giddy today (and this campaign had previously been depressing me!)

What happens when lies are accepted?
Trust is gone
Confidence is destroyed
Respect and Honor are gone
The door is open for the under world of every evil men can dream up will begin to manifest itself in deeds.
Society begins to break down
Anarchy gains momentum
Sufferings of all will grow and hope for any good days are past wishing for as despair takes over the mind and the heart.

When we have allowed politicians to lie to us, this is the path they lead the nation into and any adult can see happening right now all over America

What is a liar telling you?
When any person lies to you he is telling you what he thinks of you from way down deep inside him where only he knows why he is lying.

Here is what he is saying to you
1. I do not respect you
2. I do not trust you
3. I do not think you have any intelligence
4. I expect you to accept how small and ignorant I believe you are to accept me when you know I am lying to begin with.


AndyR
"Clinton lied about his private life, not WMDs or uranium."

No, Clinton committed perjury in an attempt to deny Paula Jones her day in court.

By the way, Clinton said he agreed with Bush about the WMDs. If Bush is a liar, then so is Clinton.


AndyR
"Ken, you should tread carefully when calling anyone a liar. You know what I'm talking about."

Yes, I do. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're not THAT big of a liar.

TheEnigma47
Enigma?

Why are Liberals compelled to lie even when truth is in their corner?
Like with Bush;
He tried to pull off that Amnesty scam on America.
He went against the 2nd Amendment in a matter before the Supreme Court.
He promoted a gigantic S to N highway even the Greens & Animal Rights activists should have demonstrated against.
He allows Mexican trucks & drivers on American highways to take work from our own Drivers & Trucking Companies.
He allows 12 Hamas terror cells to exist within our borders.
He UNLAWFULLY signed a treaty with Canada for Canadian Troops to be used inside American Borders.
It requires a 2/3rd approval from our Senate to sign that treaty.
THERE WAS NO VOTE ON IT!
American Troops are limited by law in what they can do to the American population. Canadian troops are not!

With all this truth & more, Liberals keep parroting stale irrelevant lies about Bush.
Is there some Liberal rule against using the truth?
Is it mandatory for Liberals to lie?

A Little Common Sense Please?
"Read my lips" — the most infamous preamble to a campaign whopper — was of GOP origin.

When are Republicans (never expect honesty or integrity of a democrat) going to put and end to using this absurdity? The fact remains that there were sufficient votes in Congress to OVERRIDE a pledged Presidential veto. Therefore, President Bush (I) agreed to a compromise of a LOWER tax increase without a veto as opposed to a veto that would be overridden of a tax package that was HIGHER than the compromise plan.

At least give President Bush (I) credit for keeping the tax increase as low as he could, even though he was forced to renege on his no tax pledge. To list to many spew the lie, one would believe that President Bush (I) simply chose to ignore his pledge.

AndyR
Your God Klinton;
http://www.dailyrepublican.com/clinton_communists.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDP/is_2002_Jun e_3/ai_86623607

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html? _r=2&oref=slogin&ref=politics&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bush did not make a unilateral decision for War!
DEMOCRATS WERE ON THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE at the time they voted to go to war.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2. html

If you are not aware of this then you are a fool for commenting on the subject.
If you are aware of this when you told your lies then you are a damned LIAR!

Ender
"I'll hold you to the same standard I try to hold everything to - find a second witness to back your claims."

What a shame that Bush never tried to find witnesses to back up the shoddy claims about uranium, rather than accepting documents everyone spotted immediately were faked. If he'd had your claimed tenacity, perhaps a lot of good people would still be alive today.

@AndyR
"Clinton lied about his private life, not WMDs or uranium."

And your point with this is exactly...what?

1. You continue to claim that statements of type X are lies, even when the nature of the statements bore nothing of falsehood. (At best for your case, the individuals in question were misinformed.) You provide a single individual's statements in evidence. Admittedly, this is better than most liberals I've seen, who don't even bother, but I believe I'll hold you to the same standard I try to hold everything to - find a second witness to back your claims.

2. Clinton's lies were not simply about his private life. They were intentional statements of untruth given in a court of law, coupled with attempts to suborn the testimony of other witnesses.

3. Even if I did accept your original premise, which I do not, you have failed to prove anything other than that you don't appear to care about true decency or honesty or honor. All you've tried (inadequately, to my opinion) is make a claim of 'well, you did it too!'.

Whose who?
“We have heard of the impious doctrine in the old world, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the new, in another shape...?” —James Madison

Ken: Playing Dumb
Ken, you either are or you are just playing dumb if you are trying to say that all B. Clinton lied about is a blue dress. Even I don't really think liberals are that stupid! But I have been wrong before......

AndyR
Do you know the origin of the lies you parrot?

Bush lied?
http://www.mrc.org/realitycheck/2006/fax20060413.asp

I often laugh when you Bushophobes invent lies trying to discredit Bush. You have plenty of truth to discredit Bush but you will not use truth when you can find a lie to fit in the same place.

I AM NOT a Bush supporter!,,,,, BUT know the truth;
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/a_brief_history_of_b ushs_time.html

Ken
Ken, you should tread carefully when calling anyone a liar. You know what I'm talking about.

Clinton lied about his private life, not WMDs or uranium.

WHEN THE RIGHT IS RIGHT ON

KEN (12:46 pm post) writes: "Liberals are such hypocrites. Liberals on this thread are moaning and groaning about how Republicans "lie".

Would you call ANN COULTER a liberal? Coulter, an ultra conservative, would throttle anyone who dared call her the "L" word. But it was Ann Coulter who last January in her Town Hall column accused John McCain of lying "all the time while claiming to engage in Straight Talk."

NEWSMAX, a conservative website in November 2007 had this to say about McCain :"...the Arizona senator is a two-faced, sarcastic, mean-spirited, condescending hypocrite who has gotten away with numerous instances of terrible behavior because the MSM wonít take an objective look at him."

THE RIGHT WING NEWS WEBSITE on May 23, 2008 stated: "Put very simply: John McCain is a liar. He's a man without honor, without integrity..."

None of the above critics of John McCain come close to being liberal.

AndyR
I notice you didn't answer my question about Bill Clinton. If Democrats are so concerned about truth, why didn't they hold him responsible for his lying?


Lies
First of all Bush's statement was not a lie. The British HAD learned of Saddams connection with Niger. Your quote of one source who says the Brits were duped does not make it a LIE, it calls into question the Brits evidence.

If you say 1 + 1 = 4. Then I say AndyR said "1 + 1 = 4". Did I lie? NO.

Did you read all the WMD quotes from the first post I made in response to your drivel? All those Democrats found the WMDs credible.

Only mystical oracles like yourself knew to call Bill Clinton, Gore, etc liars back in 2002-3 when they said all those things huh?

PS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Sada


Ken
"I suppose the liberals' "Bush is H!tler" mantra is what you mean by "big ideas"?"

Ken, Ken, Ken - I can't believe you just brought up your favourite dictator again in another thread! Got any more quotes you want to fabricate that disappear like WMDs when you try to look for them?

To quote you: "Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha etc etc."

Reader
"I am always reminded that the two groups that think it's okay to lie if it's in their best interest are democrats and muslims."

If Bush is any judge then you forgot Republicans and Christians. We've already seen the result of having a GOP Christian in charge for 7 years.

DavidM
"The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium.
Gee, leftist idiots call the Brits liars and I should believe them huh?"

Funny how lefties are liars when they're US, but British lefty sources are suddenly cast-iron evidence.

Shame about this: 'The chief nuclear inspector for Iraq, Mohammed El Baradei, flatly contradicted Downing Street's and British intelligence's claims of attempted uranium smuggling by Iraq and said that the documents used to substantiate the British claim were "not authentic".'

"Close scrutiny and cross-checking of the documents, the letterheads on them, the signatures on them, led us to conclude with quite absolute certainty that the documents were false," an IAEA official said.

"They were fabricated," said another IAEA official.

The fabrication was transparently obvious and quickly established, the sources added, suggesting that British intelligence was either easily hoodwinked or a knowing party to the deceit."

In other words, lies.

Two peas in a pod
Whenever I read an article like this, I am always reminded that the two groups that think it's okay to lie if it's in their best interest are democrats and muslims. Let's hope we don't elect a democratic muslim to the presidency.

Edward
Government control over healthcare will drop quality and availability of coverage.

High corporate tax rates will drive out businesses and investments in America.

High capital gains and income tax rates will stifle anyone who tries to slowly grow his income over time. Basically a wall keeping the middle class in the middle.

Expanding Socialist Security rather than allowing private accounts (you know that pesky liberty thing that Democrats only pay lip service to?).

Of course this won't affect athletes, trial lawyers, actors and people who already have lots of wealth...

Yeah, GREAT IDEAS. Too bad they have already been tried (and failed) time and time again.

Edward (CA) : How's this for hysteria?
S. Palin.
'nough said.
If I had a heart for liberals I'd almost feel sorry for you.
WHO IS LAUGHING NOW???

"Leftiswrong"
You're RIGHT!

I've been watching this all unfold with a kind of shocked/amazed feeling. This man has risen out of relative obscurity to being within a hair-strain width from the presidency. He has these very dubious associations, these radical views (that the MSM makes cloudy).

He is a CHARISMATIC CHARLATON! He should not be elected city councilman, let alone POTUS!

America will not be denied what it seeks; being decieved is one thing, cooperating in the deceit is another. A good man, George W. Bush, has been trashed by the MSM, and has been called a liar repeatedly. Now this man, an unprincipled, lying, con-man is being heralded as a "savior". Good being called evil and evil, good.

Pray continually. Christ Jesus is our ONLY hope. NOT OBAMA!

edward
"This election should be about big ideas - unfortunately, the conservatives seem to have run out of them."

Evidently, you haven't heard all of the bashing from the left against Bush (who isn't even running) and McCain. I suppose the liberals' "Bush is Hitler" mantra is what you mean by "big ideas"?

Another liberal hypocrite exposed!

The Blessings of America
Are no longer praised as a gift from God.
The blessings of America are now praised as if it comes from merchants and politicians.
"I am from the government, let me help you"
Free security, free health, free housing, free food and clothing.

Taking credit they do not own as if by their policies America has prospered, and are liars.

But this is called a new age, and everyone is so much smarter than former generations and the evidence is all over the nation.

The inventions of the computer, the space program, the high income and riches of today make all former generations look like paupers.
Beautiful homes, beautiful people.

Not even understanding the truth of God in the fatted calf, fed abundantly to grow for the day of slaughter.

Taking the future for granted as if it cannot bring anything but what they have placed an expectation to bring.

The grapes of wrath do not get trampled down and their juices recovered until they are ripe, and ready to harvest.

The sins of this generation are being filled up to over flowing, and the wine press is standing by, just waiting for the time that only God knows.

"If the Lord Will" has been forgotten and the mind set is, "everday will continue like this one" and is the spell of self deception that has blinded they eyes of the leaders of the people themselves, at least in public speech.

Yet the super rich men who now own America have prepared themselves a place, deep into a mountain where they will seek refuge from the wrath to come, and they seek for others.


And here we are
Luke 23
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Amusing
It is so funny to see the complete and total hysteria that the right wing has about Obama. I thought conservatives believed in the power of their ideas. It seems these days conservatives have no other plan or program except to try and scare people about Obama. If conservative ideas provided solutions to the real problems we face, then why not present them and let the american people decide. The last 8 years has proven that right wing conservatives simply cannot govern which is why they have nothing positive to say and will spend the next two months coming up with all kinds of nonsense about Obama to scare people. My personal favorite is he is the anti-christ. The people are smarter than that. This election should be about big ideas - unfortunately, the conservatives seem to have run out of them.

Liberals are such hypocrites.
Liberals on this thread are moaning and groaning about how Republicans "lie." It's a funny thing, but throughout the 1990's Bill Clinton was caught in one lie after another. During the 2000 presidential campaign, Al Gore was caught in one lie after another. The typical liberal response was, "Oh, well, everyone does it."

Can any of you liberals say "hypocrite"?

Good Point
Feigning conservative ideas in order to get elected is a far more common practice that feigning liberalism. The reason is obvious; truth is on the side of conservative ideology NOT liberal ideology.

One issue to demonstrate: ABORTION.

No one wants to be known as a pro-abortionist. No one wants to say what abortion really exemplifies: Utter selfishness and a callused disregard for the sacredness of human life.

So liberals argue FOR the "right" of the mother to choose what to do with "her own body", but not FOR the life of the child involved.

Their argument seems "compassionate" to some, but the result is that an early and gruesome death occurs. And for a great many woman, the realization that the "problem" didn't go away with the passing of their child, but that shame, regret, depression, and infertility often result.

A conservative argues that the unborn life has intrinsic value, reaffirming the worth of each life involved, both mother and child. By any measure, this view advances respect for life, but the other diminishes it. The results of embracing abortion reeks havoc on family, hence on the larger society.

AndyR
I do think for myself, parrot.

Did you even read one sentence in the link I provided?

Butler Report: It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.

Gee, leftist idiots call the Brits liars and I should believe them huh?

"No new taxes", Why support leftist lie?
Why do some conservatives want to lend support to leftist lies about "No New Taxes"?

It was **CONGRESS** that wanted tax increases, **NOT** Bush. [Go ahead, Google it for yourself.]

Bush relunctantly agreed to sign the bill when Dems threatened to shut down the fed govt if they didn't get their way. The press had naturally been "reporting" on how "irresponsible" it have been for Bush to shut down the govt (blaming the President, of course).

Later, when a very similar situation occurred but with roles reversed -- Repubs had Congress and Clinton was in the WH -- the press naturally blamed Congress!

No, Bush was not perfect, but let's stop pushing this leftist lie that Bush "asked for" or even wanted a tax increase. Completely false!!

The Alinsky connection is important ....
Obama was trained for his community organizing activities by Saul Alinsky’s Industrial Areas Foundation, which uses Alinsky’s principals to train activists. Understanding Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” is key to understanding Obama.

The Purpose of the Rules “ a mass power organization which will change the world … This means revolution.”

Of Means and Ends

“You do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral arguments.”
Lying to the benighted is justified when you are so smart.

The Education of an Organizer –

o “In the beginning, the organizer’s first job is to create the issues or problems.”
o “An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction…”.

Isn’t this what Reverends Wright and Pfleger are doing? Bill Ayers? Obama’s community organizing?

Tactics – note that the opposition is “the enemy”.

o “Never go outside the experience of your people.” – Move to the center; don’t alarm them.
o “Whenever possible go outside the experience of the enemy.” – The enemy (Republicans) can’t believe that Obama is a real radical.
o “Make the enemy live up to there own rulebook.” – Keep them on the defensive by calling their criticisms racist”.
o “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” – Watch Jon Stuart, Keith Olberman, Michael Moore.
o “ … In a fight, almost anything goes. It almost reaches the point where you stop to apologize if a chance blow lands above the belt.” – Anything goes when you are so smart and so certain you are right.
o “You cannot risk being trapped by the enemy in his sudden agreement with your demand.” – Barack isn’t serious about unity and compromise – he is serious about winning taking power.
o “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” – now you understand the never ending personal attacks on Bush and the Republicans. Now you understand the attacks on the Bill Ayers ads, and the National Review writer researching the library archives.

DavidM
GWB: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.""

Which was a lie. The Brit Gov ASSERTED it. They hadn't LEARNED it. Bush repeated the lie. And now you unthinkingly repeat it, just like he'd want you to. Learn to think for yourself David.

The anti-christ....
I often wondered how the anti-christ would do it...I mean how he would get the masses to idolize and fall down at his feet..give their lives and souls to him!!???

Last night I saw how!

This is frightening...I'm all for the first African-American POTUS (Alan Keyes, maybe), but BHO and his "yes we can" is dangerous and it's staring us right in the face and I for one am afraid that "yes he will".

God help the United States.

Sheep are smarter than the American
Public of today.
I am not speaking of individuals who see what I see and am talking about.
I am talking about the public conversation given first billing by the worst lying hypocrites antinature can produce, intentional bull sheet artists who get paid millions for presenting an image of "truth" and "fidelity" called "newsmen"

The news men of today have replaced the preacher of the Christian Faith.
The Faith of our Fathers that overcame the Royalty Worshipping aze kissers of their day.

Now these aze kissers are back in strength, kissing butts of their own chosen lying egotistical moron in government power.

This hero worship of today has replaced the Worship of God, the only source of Liberty and Truth.
There is no truth
There is no wisdom
There is no knowledge
Against the Lord
Solomon.

So do not mock the sheep o deceived America.
They are our superiors in intelligence cause we choose to follow the liars who go against nature, and sheep will not do that

Washington DC, todays Babylon
There is no evil that have ever existed in the world that cannot be found rooted in the power mongers sitting in Washington DC high office.

Americans today look up to men, simply because they hold high places in government.
Their character is not an issue any longer as it should be and used to be.

We have become like the man(?) who said:
"well, if he is a sob, he is our sob"

This is what all democrats and republicans do today as well.
"if he is a lying sob he is our lying sob"

Morality is mocked
We live in a time where its fashionable to mock ageless morality found in Nature and Nature's God.

The fundamental and principle source of truth and justice as pointed to in the birth of the American people, former British subjects.


Americans looked to a much higher authority than a fault ridden sinner sitting on the Throne of England.

NO LONGER do Americans as a Nation do this as they follow the politicians who all lie and are interested in nothing but selfish will.

The ideas that gives truth as pointed out by Jefferson have been betrayed in the American Government of today, by both of the lying pukes who run Washington DC.
Republican lies are no better than Democrat lies.

These egotists in both parties have successfully divided the nation into a nation of squabbling morons, yes all of us are who suck it all in and keep both of these immoral lying parties in power.

No longer are the Founders Honored by Washington DC from either Party.
No longer are they honored in the public school system.
Twisted minds now mock them and is fashinable to find every fault in them the fools today can find to preach to this dumbed down generation or sycophants to their chosen liar, be he republican or democrat.

AndyR - factually challenged
GWB: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

http://www.factcheck.org/bushs_16_words_on_iraq_uranium.htm l

He was called a liar by the same man who brought the information from Niger, another partisan hack Joe Wilson.

This is just too easy, since you blindly recite the Democrats talking points without using actual thought or judgement on the matter.

Coulter
What does Coulter mean by she MIGHT lie. She lies all the time. If Coulter had any itegrity she's be a Democrat. If she had any brains then she... well she wouldn't be Ann Coulter.

Even when she's slagging off McCain I find myself disagreeing with her.

Good morning
wjriii - 9:47 AM EST
Subject: Talent Scout: We agree
I believe that most politicians are just as you say; great big bags of ego seeking gratification who bend and break the truth (lie) to achieve their ends. There are exceptions, but it is far too common.

What I don't see is your connection between recognizing politicians as excellent examples of humans exhibiting the human failing of lying, and Christians accepting lying as okay.
===
ts:
No STRONG condemnation of lying, and I mean strong like in Samson strong condemnation with public rebuke against lying and liars.
Be they democrat or republican, as BOTH parties are filled with egotists who continually divide the country with complete bs.

I do not need to point out Obama's lies as everything that has ever come out of his mouth is a lie, a true professional liar, yet loved and honored by so many.
AMAZING TO WATCH!

But I also have watched a couple McCain lying ads let alone digging into all his history of lies.
The last blatant lie from him here in Colorado was an ad about Hispanics.
He used the good name Hispanic Veterans have won to justify his support for illegal immigration from Mexico.
A damnable LIE

Ann Coulter on Lying

JON SANDERS writes: "A political relativist is someone who will lie to you for his own political gain. He also — and this is important — is someone who believes that lying for political gain is a moral act."

Samders' words bring to mind the words of ANN COULTER, who, in her column of Jan. 24, 2008, wrote the following:

"John McCain is Bob Dole minus the charm, conservatism and youth. Like McCain, pollsters assured us that Dole was the most 'electable' Republican. Unlike McCain, Dole didn't lie all the time while claiming to engage in Straight Talk.

"Of course, I might lie constantly too, if I were seeking the Republican presidential nomination after enthusiastically promoting amnesty for illegal aliens, Social Security credit for illegal aliens, criminal trials for terrorists, stem-cell research on human embryos, crackpot global warming legislation and free speech-crushing campaign-finance laws.

"I might lie too, if I had opposed the Bush tax cuts, a marriage amendment to the Constitution, waterboarding terrorists and drilling in Alaska.

"And I might lie if I had called the ads of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth 'dishonest and dishonorable.'"

That was Ann Coulter's estimation of John McCain on Jan. 24, 2008.

AndyR
"That's why I could never vote GOP - I can't trust a side that lies so much."


So I assume you didn't vote for Bill Clinton?

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Ha ha ha!
"Conservatives believe lying is wrong."

That's got to be one of the funniest things I've read in my life. (grin)

Politicians, like diapers, need changing often and for the same reasons.

Do you actually really believe that Bush doesn't lie as a strategy?

You people are just too much.

No wonder Republicans are going to get their butts kicked in November.

You better hope obama is lying
The Denver speech sounded like we have a new Fuhrer. http://www.moronpolitics.com

Jimbo
Here's a news flash for you - Dems don't even know what planet they are on, much less where they "actually" are - it's all "relative", eh?
Both sides lie - heck ALL people lie. OOh.goodie - look at that - Hillarys glass ceiling, with all those cracks...was just broken through by A REPUBLICAN. It's just gets better and better....need a hankie Jimbo????

Jimbo
"At least when you're saying Republicans lie find an actual example of a Republican lie."

We've listed several. The claim of Iraq going to Niger for Uranian for example. Most of the other pre-Iraq promises turned out to be lies too. That's why I could never vote GOP - I can't trust a side that lies so much. At least I know where I am with the Democrats.

TAFT
Gee...a California liberal that can't discern lies......sadly, no surprise there!
I never said Repubs don't lie - only a blinded liberal would think that lying is a one sided political issue! The problem with liberals is that they actually believe their own lies!

Pants on fire
Obama can tell some whoppers- "MY committee passed a bill" (referring to a committee of which he is not and never has been a member, whilst HIS committee has never had a meeting.

How about saying he didn't vote to let the accidentally born alive exsanguinate? Proven lie.

Most of his (and Michelle's) recent rhetoric is but obfuscation to soften his voting record, and his initial positions, or to deliberately distort those of his opponent.
Why listen?

Read my lips
"Read my lips" was only a lie if George H.W. Bush knew he was going to break this pledge at the time he made it. He last, if memory serves, some three years after this pledge without raising taxes. He may be guilty of back-tracking on a pledge--a dishonorable thing when something is immoral--but not lying.

I can't stand this notion today, exemplified on the left, of disparaging people with faulty charges: Bush lied, troops died.

It was a very sloppy example of lying in an effort to appear fair to democrats and republicans. And you should know better. At least when you're saying Republicans lie find an actual example of a Republican lie. That should tell you something: you had a harder time finding a lie on the Republican side, apparently.

A whopper
"This morning, for example, the presumptive Republican nominee released a new ad, called, "Tiny." Whether this is a real ad, or just another scam to fool the news networks is unclear, but the message is interesting enough to consider in its own right. The voiceover tells the viewer:"

"Iran. Radical Islamic government. Known sponsors of terrorism. Developing nuclear capabilities to 'generate power' but threatening to eliminate Israel.

"Obama says Iran is a 'tiny' country, 'doesn't pose a serious threat.' Terrorism, destroying Israel, those aren't 'serious threats'?

"Obama -- dangerously unprepared to be president."

[Being the astute readers that you are, you no doubt immediately understood that saying Iran doesn't a pose a serious threat doesn't mean that terrorism and destroying Israel aren't serious threats. Just not from Iran, which is a joke.]

And here's what Obama actually said, back in May:

"Strong countries and strong Presidents talk to their adversaries. That's what Kennedy did with Khrushchev. That's what Reagan did with Gorbachev. That's what Nixon did with Mao. I mean, think about it: Iran, Cuba, Venezuela -- these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don't pose a serious threat to us the way the Soviet Union posed a threat to us. And yet we were willing to talk to the Soviet Union at the time when they were saying, 'We're going to wipe you off the planet.' And ultimately, that direct engagement led to a series of measures that helped prevent nuclear war and over time allowed the kind of opening that brought down the Berlin Wall."

Thank you, Taft
for proving my point so demonstrably.

Not only do you excuse Dem lies with moral relativism, you do it by LYING! You learned a lot from Bubba.

Taft: Obama lied last night
Obama lied in his acceptance speech.

He said that John McCain said that people making under $5 million dollars a year are middle class."

When asked by Rick Warren who is rich, McCain said $5M/year, laughing that the other side would jump on this. He didn't say that $5M/year was the dividing line, just that $5M/year was rich.

Obama did exactly that. Obama lied in order to make a political cheap shot. With so many relevant differences between the candidates, to manufacture such a transparent falsehood is pretty low.

Talent Scout: We agree
I believe that most politicians are just as you say; great big bags of ego seeking gratification who bend and break the truth (lie) to achieve their ends. There are exceptions, but it is far too common.

What I don't see is your connection between recognizing politicians as excellent examples of humans exhibiting the human failing of lying, and Christians accepting lying as okay.

The World's Record in
# of lies told by one president. George Bush

President George W. Bush and seven of his administration's top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements.

The first George would sadly shake his head in bewilderment.

EC
"...is ranked the #1 most liberal US Senator"
I assume you refer to the National Journal's rankings. I'm suspicious of a list that says Obama is a more liberal senator than Vermont's Bernie Sanders, who actually says 'I am a socialist'.

Also, it's telling that John McCain had missed too many votes to be included in the rankings.

Taft,
you and others like you don.t have enough brain cells to figure out fact from fiction.
That's TRUTH!
That's also why you cannot see the lies from Marxist Obama & the rest of the communist crew.

Lying is a badge of honor
for Dems. Here is the routine:

-Lie and distort everything.
-Repeat it frequently
-when exposed as false:
a. proclaim that "that was yesterday" or
b. Claim that "everybody does it"

For Dems, lying is a matter of survival. They know that voters will not accept the liberal agenda if it is unveiled. They must disguise and obfuscate their true intentions in order to appeal to the unwashed heathens.

Dems know that truth has a downside, one that must be avoided at all costs if their 'superior' agenda is to be achieved. For them, the ends always justify the means.

It is not surprising that such soul-less people embrace a non-judgmental, godless society.

Say Anything to Get Elected
Although I would never vote for Obama because he supports infanticide, partial birth abortion, and is ranked the #1 most liberal US Senator, I admit that his "Yes We Can" speech was really impressive. I was kind of hoping for something similar last night, just to hear an incredible speech, but I admit I am relieved that last night's speech was, although a great speech, no "Yes We Can" or "I Have a Dream".

But what did strike me most about it was how full of lies it was. Obama quoted McCain as saying that anyone under $5 million is middle class. Those of us who saw the Saddleback debate know that is not at all what McCain said. He made a joke about the $5 million and even said, "I'm sure I'll be misquoted." How disappointing to see Obama stoop to the lowest of divisive political lows by deliberately misquoting. Did the same thing with the "whiners" comment.

Plus, he pretty much promised us all everything except a free trip to Disneyland. I would love to see how he is going to fulfill all those promises- it is completely impossible and he knows it, he just wants to get elected. He said he would go through the federal budget line by line to eliminate unnecessary programs. Really? I would love to hear him name one program he will cut. The crowd was just eating it up...they want to have their ears tickled and the truth just doesn't sound as good as the Obama lies.

AndyR
Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

I am still waiting for the 'lie' Bush told.

This is pure childishness over the fact Bill Clinton lied. Democrats want to say 'Your guy did it too'.

Perspective
Now I know why demoncrats won't speak out against Islam...they too can lie for their evil. Are they working in tandem???

Apostle Paul, in using mans logic Romans 3:7-8
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (8) And not rather (as we have been slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose DAMNATION is just.

So....lying, even for good (or evil, and Obama is lying for evil) is not acceptable. Take solace in the fact that the damnation of them will be just.

Obama the 'Annointed Marxist'
One thing Barack Hussein Obama made 'Crystal Clear' in his acceptance speech, he makes 'Slick Willy' look like an amateur when it comes to lofty rhetoric!

The speech hit almost all of the 'Hot Buttons' that his followers wanted to hear, without any specificity of how those 'Catch Phrases' will be accomplished.

The essence of Obama remains the same, 'anything you want is Obama Change and everything you feel is Obama Hope'.

Obama has convinced himself, the MSM and his followers that America is without 'Hope' unless Obama can 'Change' America.

The underlying 'Obama Principle' is about rewarding failure and punishing success.

Obama believes that 'those less equal' shall become 'equal', typical Marxist rhetoric.

Obama like most Marxists, believe the only reason that Marxism has failed miserably anywhere it has been tried, is because the wrong person has led the 'Revolution' and Obama believes he is the 'One' to finally accomplish Marxisim.

Sanders
How do you determine in a study who lies the most? Hook them up to a lie detector? The truth is Sanders is lying as I see many RWers do so easily. One can go to great sites, like Factcheck.org and look at who lies the most in politics. Another good site to go to in Snopes.

Or
Lying is moral when you're trying to convince the people to back the country going to war.

Apollo Spams!
STOP HIM! SOMEBODY STOP HIM! Polluting our airwavs with his repetitive persiflage!

As for lying and morality -- just look at the number of Top 10 lies we all joke about -- from The Cheque Is In The Mail to I am From The Government And Here To Help You. How many of these are Democrat campaign planks?

"EYES--PRETTY LITTLE LIES'
Does a liar think he/she is lying when they know what they are saying is untrue? Probably. Do they care? Not on your life.
If the gullible masses 'buy' what Bill and Hillary, Joe Biden as well as 'the one they've been waiting for' then I guess these masses are looking forward to 'selling' our Nation to the highest bidder. Russia? China? Iran? Venezuala? Syria? North Korea? the United Nations? What an 'Auction" that will be!!!

Gee Mr. Sanders...
What's your opinion about counting votes ???
Seems as if not counting the votes back in 2000 might also " serve the god of being elected "
Seems as if deliberately disenfranchising inner city voters in Ohio back in 2004 might also " serve the god of being elected "
Sanctimonious Hypocrite,
Thine name is ...
Sanders

correction
a misplaced "not".

manfredo
"exactly what kind of lies are we talking about?"

That's the real problem. It's not too much of a problem that the candidates have to disguise their true political philosophy. It's that an ignorant electorate can't even tell the difference anymore.

The Republicans, by not their abandoning the basis for their principles for political expediency are the most responsible for this sad and troubling state of affairs.

i'm sorry
exactly what kind of lies are we talking about? i sometimes support democrat politicians so i would like to know what they're lying to me about. it seems they usually try to do what they said they were going to try to do. same as the republicans i support.

"wes", how about
...if you hold onto your tinfoil hat really hard,

and I spin that propeller on top really fast,

so you can escape this evil planet and get home safely to your mommy's basement.

Deal?

p.s. ...and just what was that from AlGore on Co2?! heh.

wes
I think, in your partisan fog, you missed a significant point in the article.

It isn't that Democrats lie and Republicans tell the truth. It's that Democrats CAN'T tell the truth, whereas Republicans can, and still get elected.

See the difference?

Jon, surely you jest
"Read My Lips" is the only thing you could think of?

How about: "I wouldn't use our military for nation-building"?

How many soldiers died because of "new taxes"?

Bush (W, the imbecile) also said that he would declare CO2 a pollutant.
Then Cheney punched him in the eye. (They said he choked on a pretzel, remember?) And told W how it was going to work in their administration. That's why Cheney went to a secure location and not W.

And you say conservatives are more honest than liberals? Have you read anything over the last 7 years? Bush told us that if anyone in his administration had anything to do with the valerie plame outing that they would be fired. That's just one lie out of the hundreds from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Fleisher Libby Armitage Powell Tennet and Rove. You can tell Rove is lying because his mouth is open.

Either you're ignorant of reality, or you're just writing the most ironic piece I've ever read. (That means I think you're lying.)

Another Morally confusing article from
Townhall.

When a writer brings in the word 'god' into the discussion they open the discussion passed politics.

It can be said of Conservatives that 'telling the Truth could be moral when your 'god' is getting elected.'

In that case the morality of truth telling is simply a pragmatic tool to get elected like the accusation that liberals use lying to get elected.


In both cases the focus should not be on morality but on who 'god' is to either.

If your point is to emphasis the moral high ground of Truth telling I think you did the opposite.

Who a person's 'god' is will always be where the problem is.



LIES THE LEAST OF ISSUES
Subject: One Thing is For Sure!
No matter the results of the November elections the democratic party will no longer exist. I had hope the average American Democrat would rise up in revolt to their leadership. It appears this is not going to happen. The current leadership will create a new party in November. "THE LEFTIST PARTY OF AMERICA". A new euphemism to replace communism, socialism, progressivism and Islamism. The party leadership will continue to be made up of all of the above, they just won't let anyone but the party leadership vote. The "silver lining" is they won't last long. Islamism has made it clear: "We will use your own laws to defeat you and our laws to rule you!"

J Locke aka Jon Sanders?
I think I owe you an apology anyway.
I once commented on one of your threads I believe now I had you confused with another Jon.

So I now apologize for a past error of mine you may not have even seen.

I have a different view of politicians
wjriii writes:12:59 AM EST
Talent Scout: Read it again
How does "Politicians may be the most human", regarding lying as a human failing, imply that Christians believe that lying is acceptable?

My interpretation of his argument is that humans are fallible which leads to lying, among other sins. That is human nature, not God's nature. Politicians as a group are seen as people who lie more than most, so they more clearly than most exhibit the imperfect human nature.

The larger argument is that there are spontaneous lies uttered out of human weakness where the speaker knows that the lie is wrong, and then there are premeditated, intentional lies which are told as a method to achieve some goal not caring about the rightness or wrongness of the lie. In other words, the ends justify the means.
===
ts:
I believe after many years of watching them and listening to them, they are in love with themselves more than they are with God or truth.

Now if my opinion is wrong in this judgment, then just excuse it as to me being one more human being.

Image building is a lie, and image building is what all of them do.
Phony baloneys, and lie like a rug.
On purpose for image sake.
This is the difference in a politician and statesman.


Thanks
J Locke - 12:47 AM EST
Subject: talent scout
Note: I never participate in comments unless there is a need for clarification, and in this case I think there is.

TS,

I appreciate your clarification on that part. The point of that sentence was not to stop halfway down the "Romans road," so to speak, but to buttress my preceding point that readers were not to mistake me as implying that Republicans didn't also lie. I was cautioning against misreading into the column a silly sanctification of Republicans; I was most certainly not excusing lying on a principle of everybody does it.

Also, the reason I called it an "irreplaceable" part of Christian doctrine is that without universal sin, there would be no need for grace; i.e., that salvation could be of works, which of course is counter to Scripture.

Best regards,
JPS
===
ts:
My wrong in not fully explaining myself.
I did not think you were justifying sin or lying.

I have seen this idea used to excuse lying in a general justification for politicians.

Sorry if I came across as blaming you as part of that, certainly did not do so by intent.

Lying and the democrats
Ranger 29 you are a perfect example of what this column demostrates. The facts show that Saddam Hussein had WMD, there is no argument on this point, but the democrats and the media have been telling us that it was Bush that lied which is the biggest lie of all. EVERYONE IN CONGRESS AND THE SENATE ADMITED IRAQ HAD WMD WHEN CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT. IT WAS AFTER BUSH BECAME PRESIDENT AND INVADED IRAQ THAT THE WMD WERE A BUSH LIE. You can go back and find hundreds of statement by democrats stating that Saddam Hussein had WMD. When the democrats wanted to get Bush they lied and lied and lied and are still lying and the foolish American people believe their lies without qualification.

What is troubling about today's liberals
is all the uselful idiots they have in the main media, dim party, dim special interests and academia to help them spread dis-information and fabrications. If we don't stop them at every level and make them earn our respect this country is lost. Republicans have to earn it its time the dims were shown the door. They have never given the middle class conservatives in the country any compromise. Its slam, slamm slam until we finally win. Let's stop the madness. Sweep em out once and for all and we get Hi-liar-y working to the middle again. That's easier for her to pull off than lying about sniper fire.

DALE: "Ranger29/Robert" can't see lies
because he's mired in the muck himself.

He seems to enjoy adolescent flame-throwing, using empty claims, half-truths and plain old lies. Most of the time hard-up for facts...

Typical liberal person.

("Don't beat me Massa! Da One tol' me dat wuz da troof!" /sarc)

As I posted elsewhere, Robert, when the folks who post here ofter CHOOSE to read such piffle, they know where to go online.

You need post here no longer.

To Ranger 29
I can only surmise that you allege the "right" lied about WMD being in Iraq as a pretext for entering Iraq. Surely you can come up with something better than that! Don't forget that huge numbers of Democrats voted in support of stopping Hussein, including Democrat members of the Intelligence Committee. If you do not recognize the bold, bald-faced lies routinely spewed forth by numerous Democrats, you are indeed blind. As the author noted, this is not to say that the "right" is guiltless. But to adopt it as a Machiavellian political means to an end is entirely different matter, and that is what so morally debase about the majority of the liberal left. Frankly, it is the party without a conscience, despite (indeed because of) all its rhetoric.

Wobbie
Comments regarding TRUTH from someone who at various times has claimed to be a naval jet pilot, lawyer, ranger, etc, are pretty funny.
How's life in Mom's basement, you little troll ?
Or are you at work at McD's, taking a break from your french fry machine ?

Talent Scout: Read it again
How does "Politicians may be the most human", regarding lying as a human failing, imply that Christians believe that lying is acceptable?

My interpretation of his argument is that humans are fallible which leads to lying, among other sins. That is human nature, not God's nature. Politicians as a group are seen as people who lie more than most, so they more clearly than most exhibit the imperfect human nature.

The larger argument is that there are spontaneous lies uttered out of human weakness where the speaker knows that the lie is wrong, and then there are premeditated, intentional lies which are told as a method to achieve some goal not caring about the rightness or wrongness of the lie. In other words, the ends justify the means.

Oback and Truth
I’m not sure what my critics mean by “flip/flop” on issues. I have had a perfect consistency on all of my positions since I started public life. My critics are starting out with false premises that of course lead to false conclusions. They think that Democrat politics are logical, that policies must be consistent within their own context, and that truth is something that has an absolute quality about it. What I believe and have shown consistently is that truth has a relative quality about it. It brings to mind the words of a famous Roman procurator who asked many years ago “What is truth?” Well, for us Democrats, the truth is whatever will get us elected to office. By using that parameter, you right wing bozos will finally see the consistency of our words and actions. Now, have I confused you? If so, then try this on for size: truth is whatever I say it is. After all, I am Oback Arama. I’m for change, even for changing the definition of truth.

That’s change that works for me and change I can believe in. Can you believe in that kind of change?

Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!

I’m Oback Arama and I approved this message
obackaramablog.com

talent scout
Note: I never participate in comments unless there is a need for clarification, and in this case I think there is.

TS,

I appreciate your clarification on that part. The point of that sentence was not to stop halfway down the "Romans road," so to speak, but to buttress my preceding point that readers were not to mistake me as implying that Republicans didn't also lie. I was cautioning against misreading into the column a silly sanctification of Republicans; I was most certainly not excusing lying on a principle of everybody does it.

Also, the reason I called it an "irreplaceable" part of Christian doctrine is that without universal sin, there would be no need for grace; i.e., that salvation could be of works, which of course is counter to Scripture.

Best regards,
JPS

Jon Sanders
Christian doctrine that all people sin, and by extension, that lying is human nature. In that respect politicians may be the most human among us.
===
ts:
Thats just the 1st part of Christian teaching to bring about conviction for sin and then repentance of sin to go and sin no more.

Its insane to think because Christianity teaches we are sinners that we all now accept sin as ok.



The Grace is given to teach something also.
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

No one can stop with the first part and claim they are Christian.

So lies are not to be accepted, least of all from a politician, even if people do, its wrong.
And will always lead a nation astray as it has done already.

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