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Wednesday, January 31, 2007
Jon Sanders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Of nuts, Chicken Little and global warming
by Jon Sanders
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


In the fable of Chicken Little, an acorn hits the title character's head, she concludes that the sky is falling, she convinces her barnyard pals of the same, they rush pell-mell to tell the king, and on the way get eaten by a fox.

The lesson of Chicken Little is that all that's required to start a panic is just one nut. A natural phenomenon boggles Little's brain, her hysterical squawking scares her community into a rush for government action, and from an imaginary future threat they run smack into the jaws of a real present one.

The moral of the story depends on who you are. If you're a Chicken Little or you know one, it's don't jump to conclusions, don't panic, don't believe everything you're told, and don't buy into mass hysteria.

If you're a fox, the moral is toss a few nuts at the hysterical types and go put the kettle on. And this Friday, Feb. 2, it's going to be a veritable nutstorm. That's when, we're told, the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change will release its "smoking gun" report on human-caused global warming. The foxes are already licking their chops.

Contrary to popular perception, however, the IPCC won't release the actual report until May. Friday's the day the IPCC releases its Summary for Policymakers. Not only does the IPCC plan to give policy meddlers three months' lead time without fear of challenge from what's in the report (a problem previous summaries have suffered) — they're also prepared to edit the report after the fact. The IPCC procedures document says that "Changes (other than grammatical or minor editorial changes) made after acceptance by the Working Group or the Panel shall be those necessary to ensure consistency with the Summary for Policymakers or the Overview Chapter."

The foxy barrage-of-nuts approach has been the standard approach to building community consensus for federal action on global warming at least since 1989, when Stanford biological sciences professor Stephen Schneider told Discover Magazine that October, "We [scientists] need to get some broad-based support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have."

Among others, Al Gore agrees with that approach. Last year he told the environmentalist magazine Grist, "I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations" – what a euphemism! – "on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are, and how hopeful it is that we are going to solve this crisis."

And boy have we been getting some dramatic, scary, "over-represented" scenarios in the media. They are so prevalent it's probably unnecessary to provide examples, but here are some recent ones anyway:

    Time magazine's April 3, 2006 cover declared: "BE WORRIED. BE VERY WORRIED. Climate change isn't some vague future problem — it's already damaging the planet at an alarming pace. Here's how it affects you, your kids and their kids as well."

    The film "The Day After Tomorrow," in the words of its advertisement, "takes a big-budget, special-effects-filled look at what the world would look like if the greenhouse effect and global warming continued at such levels that they resulted in worldwide catastrophe and disaster, including multiple hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tidal waves, floods and the beginning of the next Ice Age." Similar films included the CBS disaster epic "Category 7: The End of the World" (the title say it all) and Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," whose poster depicts a hurricane spinning out of an industrial smokestack.

    Matt Lauer, in his "Countdown to Doomsday" special report on the SciFi Channel June 14, 2006, spoke of "the threat of super volcanoes ... We're living on the edge of a mass extinction. ... Massive tornados in Los Angeles are just some of the ways that global warming wreaks death and destruction around the world in the movie 'The Day After Tomorrow.' The movie's nightmarish scenario is not as far fetched as it may seem. ... If the ocean gets warm enough, the methane will defrost and rise from the ocean into the atmosphere. Global warming will suddenly get a steroid injection. If that happens, we will be past the tipping point. Colossal hurricanes would hammer the globe. The oceans would become too hot to support much life. Droughts, forest fires, and famine would rage across the continents. Florida would be gone, completely swallowed by the rising ocean, as well as hundreds of cities all around the world."

    Film critic Roger Ebert, in his June 2, 2006 review of Gore's film: "Global warming is real. It is caused by human activity. Mankind and its governments must begin immediate action to halt and reverse it. If we do nothing, in about 10 years the planet may reach a "tipping point" and begin a slide toward destruction of our civilization and most of the other species on this planet. After that point is reached, it would be too late for any action.... Am I acting as an advocate in this review? Yes, I am. I believe that to be 'impartial' and 'balanced' on global warming means one must take a position like Gore's. There is no other view that can be defended."

    On March 22, 2006, CBS News correspondent Scott Pelley equated scientists skeptical of global warming with "Holocaust deniers," and on December 21, 2006, The Weather Channel meteorologist Heidi Cullen advocated that the American Meteorological Society not give its "Seal of Approval" to meteorologists who are skeptical of man-made climate change.

And those are but a dip of the cup in the roiling river of media climate-change hyperbole. It's already enough to drown out the Y2K paranoia of late December '99 and the bird-flu fright of '06. And brother, if you think you're heard hysteria before, you just wait till Friday. You ain't heard nothing yet.

Come Friday, about the only thing you won't have heard is the actual report.

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About The Author
Jon Sanders is a policy analyst and research editor at the John Locke Foundation in Raleigh, N.C.

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Why is it that when the Global Warmies
use a hot spell as an example that Global Warming is real, but when half the country is plunged into the worst winter in years only two weeks later, I am told that I am using ancedotal evidence.

The truth is, both observations are anecdotal.

The science shows that the global temperature has gone up by ONE WHOPPING DEGREE IN 100 YEARS.

Wow!

Does that take into account the degree of error in old fashioned equipment?

Besides, when one considers that the climate and weather has changed throughout history, the hysteria seems even more unfounded.

Did you know that at one time Egypt was a swamp?

Did you know that there was a spell of "Global Warming" during the Middle Ages that permitted the English to grow grapes?

Did you know that around the time of the American Revolutionary War, there was a cold spell that lasted so long it has been dubbed "The Mini Ice Age?"

The world was obviously in a state of Global Warming in the two hundred years between the Declaration of Independance and my misspent youth.

By all signs, it was a much more rapid climate change than the one that has taken place since.

So if people want to find things to wring their hands about, they can be my guest.

But I am fed up with them insisting that everyone else share in their neurosis.

Energy Rationing, & Totalitarianism
We're told: "The IPCC procedures document says that "Changes (other than grammatical or minor editorial changes) made after acceptance by the Working Group or the Panel shall be those necessary to ensure consistency with the Summary for Policymakers or the Overview Chapter."

This is important. I gather the "Summary for Policymakers" is the section where the IPCC declares globalwarmingishappening&ifwedon'tgiveallourmoney&authoritytotheUNrightnowwe'redead. The actual report, which I presume details the actual data and analysis used, will be EDITED TO CONFORM to the Summary which is what the UN thru the IPCC says it wants us to do. The "Summary" won't be edited to conform to the actual facts and math, the facts andf math shown to us will be cooked so no one will look at it and point out that it doesn't support the conclusions issued four or five months previously in the "Summary".

Back in I think 1995, the IPCC had issued a report in which the actual scientists had originally concluded the evidence for artificially caused climate warming was uncertain. After all the actual scientists had left, and the report was in the hands of UN bureaucrats, someone altered the conclusion to say that global warming was being caused by humans, & published that as the official conclusion. However, there were copies of the original document on which the scientists had agreed available. It was a big scandal, but of course the pop media lost interest in it quickly.

Opponents of the anthrogenic global warming dogma are derided as stooges of industry, but such bodies as the various green groups and the UN have strong special interests at stake in its acceptance as well, even if it is untrue.

Remember the spotted owl controversy, and how the questionable listing and protection of the spotted owl turned out actually to be a proxy for shutting down Northwestern logging, as the greenies wanted. By the same token, the global warming dogma is a trojan horse for forcing the entire green-commie agenda upon us.

Since the logic of the anthrogenic global warming theory and such responses as the Kyoto treaty leads directly to a socialist defacto world government to enforce and referee treaty requirements, the UN which wants to be the government of the world, has the biggest stake of all in AGWT.

Keep those thoughts in mind whenever you read about and analyze the zany things that are said or proposed in response to AGWT, and they will make perfect, frightening sense. AGWT as dogma is the winning sweepstakes ticket for everything the UN and the green-commies ever wanted, and impoverished totalitarianism for the rest of us.

It's all man's fault...
since nobody's figgered out how to turn down the thermostat on the sun when it's in a hotter part of it's cycle.

Global Warming
When the ice melts and temperatures are high, it's "global warming". When the citrus freezes in California and Florida it's called "climate change". The sky IS falling.

It's the Sun, Stupid
I did a quick search using "global warming sun temperature graph" and found this site (www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm) which basically debunks the hockey stick and tracks the sun spots with global temperature.

It's all GW's fault!
He didn't build levees around Florida to save us from ourselves!

Seriously, It is in the financial and political interest of the U.N. and the "greenie" groups to push global warming as a manmade imminent disaster. Humans certainly can effect the environment, but outside of a global thermonuclear exchange it's unlikely we can have a fraction of the impact that the normal cycles of our sun have. There appears to be "global warming" on Mars. Did we do that too?

Are there disasters looming in our future? Only a fool would deny that there are. Good grief, the entire Yellowstone caldera is expected to erupt some day; the ring of fire is in constant flux; we could get hit by a monster asteroid. The question is, do we ruin our economies, turn control of our lives over to non-freedom loving entities and spend our lives trembling in fear that our cars aren't "green enough"?

Not this guy. I just sat outside here in NE Florida, in an urban setting, and watched a freakin' bald eagle soar by! It wasn't global warming, but it sure warmed my heart. Despite our best or worst efforts we will muddle through. And when the hammer comes it will come. Just be sure you're ready for what comes after.

More snow
So, global warming results in more snow? What do we get with global cooling? Color me confused

Ice ages results in buttercups in Alaska
That's just one of my problems with the global warming alarmists. If a wild animal could nosh on wild buttercups during the last ice age just a few miles from my current home (which during the last ice age was a warm spot surrounded by mile-thick continental ice sheets), I think I ought to be able to cultivate buttercups in my flower bed during this "global warming crisis." However, no matter how I try (and I have!) I can't seem to get them to live.

Science must be consistent with itself. If it isn't, why should anyone believe it? When scientists refuse to look at ALL the evidence because some of it doesn't support their conclusions, I think they might want to put on priestly colors instead of white lab coats. It's not science if you only accept the facts you like. It's religion and not very honest religion at that.

Perhaps some research would be in order?
The ideal conditions for snowfall are when the ground temperature (GLOBAL WARMING) and the air temperature are different, hence the reason for increased snowfall around areas like the great lakes.

Global Warming refers to trends and patterns in OVERALL globe temperature. It does not mean that there won't be cold snaps. It just means that OVERALL, the globe is getting warmer.

Winters have not been getting significantly colder. In fact, the winter of 2003-2004, while billed by many as a record winter, was only the 33rd coldest in 100 years.

I do agree with the author on one point, however: As for it only taking one nut to cause undue trouble, look no further than the debacle in Iraq for proof on that.

You guys say that it's in the financial
best interest of the greenies to push global warming, and you seem to completely forget that it's in the financial best interest of the big business and govt to pretend that it doens't exist. It goes both ways.

Plus, to assume we have no effect on the environment is naive. Hell, just look at all the rainforests we've chopped down- the animals that have gone extinct due to man's intervention (most recently, I believe, was the chinese river dolphin a few months ago). Whether or not we're super heating the earth, we do treat it and it's creatures pretty damn poorly a lot of the time, make no mistake about that.

Super Mario
C'mon. The issue at hand is not whether there is or is not a climate change that may be occurring, but whether humans are the primary cause of the feared change. These apocalyptic utterances have been trumpeted for more years than I care to remember and, so far, every 10 or 15 years the focus changes from global cooling to global warming. Between the sun's cycles, volcanic activity, etc. the natural forces at work have far greater impact than man.

Yes, we've cut down forests. We've also planted them. We've caused the extinction of certain species. We've also helped save and restore others.

If, in the words of Tommy Smothers (and you're probably not old enough to remember him -- he's now an old fart), you want to believe we're all evil, wicked, mean and bad and nasty inside -- go ahead.

Meanwhile, I'll keep pushing to drill in ANWR and the Gulf, build more nuclear power plants, construct more refineries, explore wind, solar and geothermal supplies and so on.

Mountain Rose
"Did you know that there was a spell of "Global Warming" during the Middle Ages that permitted the English to grow grapes?"

Actually, it was pretty much a regional phenomenon. The average worldwide temperature is higher now.

"The world was obviously in a state of Global Warming in the two hundred years between the Declaration of Independance and my misspent youth."

Oh, if there were no humans, the temperature probably still be rising. BUT, at a much slower rate. A degree in a century is actually a pretty fast increase.

"By all signs, it was a much more rapid climate change than the one that has taken place since."

Wrong, especially if you look at the change in the last thirty years.

the ice man comeith
During the last Ice Age, the oceans were warmer than now...actually. When oceans warm up, more moister is produced, making more rain in summer and snow in winter. More snow reflects light back into space. The air gets colder but the ocean stays warm. A colder air makes more snow, thus more light reflected back into space. The process feeds on itself. There had to have been a warm current off Alaska that fed the inland glacers. Indians came down from Russia while oceans were much lower feeding on game and plants while watching glacers develop inland. The oceans may be warming a bit now and throwing "water" inland while melting boundry ice and confounding the Gore followers because the oceans arn't riseing. The sun is getting just a little warmer...can't do anything about that.
What's being missed here, is 90 odd percent of us are planting trees like crazy. They make oxygen! In fact, we now have more trees than back in the 1700's because we are stoping forest fires from being massive. It's an insult that the invironmentality`ists accuse us of wanting global warming when in fact we are doing a lot to help. Look at all those fancy light bulbs and microwave ovens that save energy just to mention a few.
All the while, the rice burning "Chinks" are burning dung and what-ever, poluting the air and nothing is said. Stop buying their products and that will stop polution...can't eat, can't cook.

Facts
1. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. This has been shown over and over again in laboratory experiments.

2. There is more CO2 in the atmosphere every year. We've been measuring atmospheric components for decades now, and the level of CO2 has been going up since we started. Currently, it's at 37.7% over the pre-industrial average, and 2005 saw one the biggest single-year increases on record.

3. Most of the additional CO2 is from fossil fuels. We know this because the isotopic ratio is different for carbon from fossil fuel than from other sources, and we're seeing more of that same isotopic signiture in carbon in the atmosphere.

Knowing what CO2 does in the lab, do you really think that we can pump ton after ton of it into the atmosphere without it having an effect?

The Denial Phenomenon
With thousands of climate scientists around the globe now telling us this thing is real and calls for fast action, the denial phenomenon becomes more and more fascinating. Here are some of the chief characteristics I've noted:

1.) Ignore just how many scientists are on one side, and how few are on the other. Keeping quoting the same half dozen or so contrarians who actually have impressive-sounding academic credentials (e.g., Fred Singer), and try to make it sound as if climate scientists are still involved in a robust debate.

2.) Point to every possible bit of information that might suggest that global doesn't exist or is not as serious as most climate scientists agree that it is. ("Why, right here in East Pothole, Michigan, we're having a colder than usual winter.")

3.) Claim that the "real agenda" of the global warming "alarmists" is global government, socialism, green communism, or whatever, while ignoring the fact that what those "alarmists" are pointing is evidence compiled by trained scientists using professional methodology. (Or are we to believe that these scientists all leave the laboratory at night and report to their communist cell---or at least their Democratic Party meeting?)

4.) Talk about the threat of government control and intrusion into the sacred workings of the free market while ignoring the smart, cutting-edge CAPITALISTS who are already developing and deploying energy-efficiency technologies, renewable energy systems, and energy-saving "green" building designs.

5.) Also ignore the fact that such capitalist enterprises would make sense---from the standpoint of efficiency and/or national security---even if the global warming threat did not exist.



How did I know Frey would be here
trowelling out the same tired arguments that got his a** handed to him on the thread at Deb Sanders article:

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/DebraJSaunders/2007/01/30/see_no_dissent,_call_it_science

Note: my Chicken Little comment was made Tuesday night at 10:30 PM, well before this article posted to Townhall.

Scottie
What a** handed to me? I got one fact wrong, that's all.

Curious
Why is it that when people say that global warming is coming, and provide strong evidence to back it up, you say they're just alarmists, but when people say that a terrorist attack is coming, and provide much flimsier evidence, you say, "We have to act fast! Lock up Muslims! Torture the prisoners! Wiretap anyone you have to! No warrants, there's no time! Invade anyone that might be a threat to us! Doesn't matter whether it will work or not, just do it!" I have to admit, I'm at a loss.

Scottie
To be honest, I found the remainder of your comments (and links) to be so moronic, I just didn't feel like bothering. I know I'm never going to convince and your kind no matter what I say, so the heck with it. I'm done playing for a while.

One more
I do notice that you had nothing to say about my "Facts" post, which was entirely new.

Frey's Facts
"1. CO2 is a greenhouse gas."

So is methane. So is water vapor.

CO2 forms about .0325% of greenhouse gasses. Anthropogenic CO2 accounts for 10% of *that*. As compared with water vapor, which constitutes 90-95% of greenhouse gases.

"2. There is more CO2 in the atmosphere every year."

Increases in CO2 and increases in average global temperatures don't correlate except in a general way, whereas average global temperatures correlate very closely with solar output (insolation).

"3. Most of the additional CO2 is from fossil fuels."

Except that all of the fossil fuels burned in the last century don't even add as much CO2 into the atmosphere as one major volcanic eruption.

johninoregon
"Here are some of the chief characteristics [of AGW 'deniers'] I've noted:

1.) Ignore just how many scientists are on one side, and how few are on the other."

In our defense, there's a significant tradition going here. Galileo. Copernicus. Wright. Einstein. You might have heard of some of them.

"2.) Point to every possible bit of information that might suggest that global [sic] doesn't exist or is not as serious as most climate scientists agree that it is."

When most of the "evidence" for AGW consists of computer models that can't even accurately model climate events that we know already *happened*, it doesn't take a lot to debunk, unless one is a faithful communicant of the Church of Environmentalism.

"3.) Claim that the "real agenda" of the global warming "alarmists" is global government, socialism, green communism, or whatever..."

Pay attention to the patterns. Look at who's tooting the horn the loudest. Not the scientists, the politicians. Leftism in this country has a long history of using whatever tactics they can lay hands on; you don't need to be a particularly astute student of history to see the pattern - though it helps.

"4.) Talk about the threat of government control and intrusion into the sacred workings of the free market..."

You have precious little understanding of economics if you believe that free-market thinkers see the workings of the free market as "sacred"; it has just worked, to bring more prosperity to people worldwide than any other system. Period.

" ...while ignoring the smart, cutting-edge CAPITALISTS who are already developing and deploying energy-efficiency technologies, renewable energy systems, and energy-saving "green" building designs."

If the things they were developing were economically feasible, no governmental subsidies would be necessary.

I recommend reading a book on economics before opining further on stuff you clearly don't understand.

"5.) Also ignore the fact that such capitalist enterprises would make sense---from the standpoint of efficiency and/or national security---even if the global warming threat did not exist."

Again, if they made sense from the standpoint of the market, no subsidies would be be needed.

What do these liberals have to gain from
promoting global warming?

Better yet, what do you all have to benefit from denying it?

If your are not willing to accept the evidence that has accumulated then at least think of the possible consequences that may result on the chance that you are wrong. What is seriously at stake in trying to deny this is happening?

FergusMacLennan
Can you provide a link to your data regarding CO2 emissions not adding up to a volcanic eruption?
I have heard this before and do not know much about it but I find it hard to believe. I'm not trying to be cynical here, just curious.

Dont Tread on ME
"Back in I think 1995, the IPCC had issued a report in which the actual scientists had originally concluded the evidence for artificially caused climate warming was uncertain. After all the actual scientists had left, and the report was in the hands of UN bureaucrats, someone altered the conclusion to say that global warming was being caused by humans, & published that as the official conclusion."

The funny little thing about scientific conclusions is that THEY CHANGE HAS NEW EVIDENCE BECAUSE AVAILABLE. Therefore, just because a conclusion was reached in 1995 does not mean it is relevant 12 years after its released. I see your not too fond of the IPCC. However this is what I provide for you guys:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/pastcc.html#last

Again, I ask are the consequences of acting to prevent global warming and being wrong worse than the consequences of doing nothing and having global warming be true?

JoeC
Sure, here's one real quick, from the CSU website (that's Colorado State University, hardly a bastion of conservative think-tankism):

http://www.csu.edu.au/faculty/health/aemf/HDS/chapter_11.htm

From the bottom, talking about the 1991 eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Phillipines:

"Scientists estimated that Pinatubo’s eruption added more aerosols (light gases and particles) than all human-caused ‘greenhouse gases’ since the industrial revolution. A reduction of up to 1°C in the Earth’s average temperature was recorded by NASA satellites within a year of the main eruption. This cooling effect persisted for about two years, temporarily more than offsetting any global warming effect."

I would find more for you, but I gotta get some shut-eye.

JoeC
"Again, I ask are the consequences of acting to prevent global warming and being wrong worse than the consequences of doing nothing and having global warming be true?"

What you are getting at is requesting a cost-benefit analysis of the issue.

I don't have the figures in front of me, so I am quoting from memory, but as I recall, a worldwide expenditure to adhere to the Kyoto Protocols in their entirety would cost hundreds of TRILLIONS of dollars, and would lower global average temperatures by less than a quarter of one degree Celsius by the year 2100.

This would have the effect of markedly lowering the standard of living for millions of people worldwide, stifling the advance of many Third-World countries out of poverty, and generally enhancing, rather than alleviating, misery.

All for a small fraction of one degree, tops.

Now, I could be off on my recollection of the figures, but let's say for one second, for the sake of argument, that I am in the ballpark: does that sound worth it to you?

FergusMacL...
Apologies for directing so many replies to you, but you do seem to be one of the more articulate posters. Don't take that as a compliment however :-)

Your reply to Johninoregon...

(No problem with the first 3 points, agree to disagree.)

""4.) Talk about the threat of government control and intrusion into the sacred workings of the free market..."

>>> You have precious little understanding of economics if you believe that free-market thinkers see the workings of the free market as "sacred"; it has just worked, to bring more prosperity to people worldwide than any other system. Period.

There is no free market. What we have, last time I looked, was a reasonably rational combination of socialism and capitalism. If it was truly free from the get-go, then most of us probably would be working in the shoe factory from age 6...

" ...while ignoring the smart, cutting-edge CAPITALISTS who are already developing and deploying energy-efficiency technologies, renewable energy systems, and energy-saving "green" building designs."

>>>>If the things they were developing were economically feasible, no governmental subsidies would be necessary.

>>>>I recommend reading a book on economics before opining further on stuff you clearly don't understand.

Maybe if the oil and conventional energy industries had not been so heavily subsidized then "green energy" wouldn't need an iron lung.

Regarding economics textbooks: economist friend of mine says there's 3 opinions for every pair of economists. Reading that stuff is like going to a rooster fight.
[Couldn't use the traditional word for "rooster", TH thought it was too risque :-]

"5.) Also ignore the fact that such capitalist enterprises would make sense---from the standpoint of efficiency and/or national security---even if the global warming threat did not exist."

>>>>Again, if they made sense from the standpoint of the market, no subsidies would be be needed.

See above. Unfortunately, one subsidy begets another.

PS: I know it's flogging a dead horse, but I did add a rebuttal to your rebuttal in the other related thread.

JoeC: One last...
... and then I REALLY gotta get to bed; my gorgeous wife is waiting.

"What do these liberals have to gain from
promoting global warming?"

The same thing they always have to gain, whether they are playing Cassandra over AGW, homelessness, racism, or kitty-juggling: POWER. Increased control. Leftists inherently distrust liberty; they don't believe that human beings, left alone, will behave in a way that increases, rather than detracts from, the so-called Common Good. Witness the rationale behind the progressive income tax. Witness the rationale behind eliminating nuclear power. Witness the rationale behind Kyoto. Witness the rationale behind the "Fairness Doctrine" which Dennis Kucinich and others are pushing for RIGHT NOW.

It's all about power, centralized power. If AGW won't get it for them, then they will find some other excuse; they never seem to run out.

Unfortunately I am unconvinced
I find it extremely difficult to believe that there is some liberal conspiracy to consolidate power by convincing people into buying global warming.

Also, acknowledging that greenhouse gases can be released naturally does not conclude that their unnatural release is not detrimental. Even within the volcanic example above it is acknowledged that green house gases are a cause of global warming:
" This cooling effect persisted for about two years, temporarily more than offsetting any global warming effect."
We cannot change natural causes of CO2 emissions however we can control what we release ourselves.

Either way, I hope for the sake of all of us the future will prove me wrong. Unfortunately, I find it difficult to ignore the evidence that has accumulated. Especially that which is not from some left wing interest group (although from what I can tell, most of it is not).

Wouldn't it help curb those greenhouse
gases if all you 'global warming' environazis STOPPED using these panels and commissions and gatherings all over the globe where you have taken a jet to and ride around in SUVs and limos while showing the poorer nations of the world just what they can't have? Like the fancy meals and posh resorts?

It's all networking. To get in the newspapers and your mug on tv. To be famous which is sometimes it's own reward, right?

Useful idiots..
Regardless of whether Frey & Mario are so naive as to believe the propaganda being fed to them by the enviro-Nazis or whether they are willing conspirators, doesn’t alter the fact that they are indeed useful idiots of the various left-wing movements (communist and Nazi) that are using fear tactics to convince idiots to sacrifice their freedoms. Once the fascists have taken over, all the useful idiots will be relegated to peon status with the rest of masses.

Here are are few more critics
Allow me to present a few names. Massachusetts Institute of Technollogy's Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology Richard S. Lindzen complained to the Boston Globe about the "shrill alarmism" of Gore's flick. Neil Frank, who was considered authoritative when he was the director of the National Hurricane Center, told The Washington Post that global warming is "a hoax." Hurricane expert William Gray of Colorado State University believes the Earth will start to cool within 10 years.

University of Virginia professor emeritus Fred Singer co-authored a book, "Unstoppable Global Warming -- Every 1,500 Years," that argues that global warming is not human-induced but based on a solar cycle.

On a more local note


Computer models don't always work. For many years, the National Weather Service would depict cold fronts moving rapidly through the Gulf coastal area during the winter. They were surprised when the fronts slowed down and stalled many times. The computer model had included all winds , surface temperatures and other such data. They just neglected to include the Gulf of Mexico in the calculations.

To All AGWT Advocates
I'll make you a deal.

In spite of your shaky (or even non-existent) evidence, your rigged "computer models", and your reflexive hatred of any disagreement with your POV, I will support you in your program to reduce AGW. IF you do the following;

1. Enforce the Kyoto Accord limits impartially. Including on the European countries such as France which signed on, and are now violating their CO2 emission limits with impunity.

2. Enforce the Kyoto limits on other CO2 generators, too. (That means not only the United States, but the People's Republic of China, as well.)

4. Since (whether you like it or not) at least 35%-45% of human-caused CO2 emissions comes from electric power generation, support replacing oil and coal-fired plants with environmentally benign generation systems which do not put CO2 into the atmosphere. Namely, hydroelectric dams and nuclear power plants. (BTW, this means an end to the still-in-progress Clinton era plan to dismantle hydroelectric dams across the USA, to "make rivers wild again".)

5. If you want non-polluting vehicles, support the creation of infrastructure that will allow their economical use. That means developing safe handling methods for LH2 or SH2 (liquid or slushed hydrogen), improved methods of electrical power storage (IE, better battery technology), improved methods of transmitting power (think; non-cryogenic superconductors), and of course improved and non-polluting methods of electrical generation to allow nightly recharging of all the electric vehicles (see [4] above).

6. As part of (5), since so much of what we need to live has to move long distances from supplier to user, support a program of progressively phasing out conventionally-powered ocean and littoral transport vessels in favor of nuclear-powered ones. On land, replace diesel railway engines with electric or LH2/SH2 turbine-powered ones. In the air, replace kerosene-burning jet aircraft with LH2/SH2 fueled ones.

7. And while you're at it, accept a termination of all subsidies for; ethanol, solar power, wind power, and geothermal energy. If they are capable of supplying the energy needs of our economy, they should be able to stand on their own merits. If not, they should be superseded by something that can. (P.S.- I have long opposed price supports and financial aid from government to oil, gas, and coal producers; I am opposed to corporate welfare on principle, no matter who the recipient is.)

8. Finally, sign on to an agreement, stating that while environmental quality is indeed important, environmental imperatives may never be used to subject people to oppressive restrictions on their free exercise of economic choice. This means that, yes, we will agree on measures that will improve the emissions state of our society, but no, you may not use such measures as an excuse to suppress industries and/or technologies that, for whatever reason, you just don't happen to like. (That means, as long as SUVs don't add to the carbon budget above their alotted level, you can't make people "show a need" for such a vehicle before they are allowed to buy and drive one.) This measure is non-negotiable. (Because I honestly don't trust you that far.)

There's the deal, my "green" friends. If you are really interested in improving the lot of us all and "saving the planet", it's entirely reasonable, requiring nothing other than sensible and civil behavior on your part. As the old engineer's saying goes, "Just tell us what you want the gadget to do, and go away, and nobody will get hurt".

If, on the other hand, you reject this deal on the grounds that it is (1) insufficiently restrictive of human impact on the ecosystem, (2) Does not do enough to change society to a "sustainable" form,and/or (3) allows too much individual choice and/or technological advancement to suit your idea of what the human future should look like, that will tell me that you aren't serious about solving the problem without hurting people. Rather, it will tell me that in you neo-Luddite way, you are out to punish everyone else for not being as "enlightened" as you imagine yourselves to be, and to increase your personal and political power at everyone else's expense. Much like eveyry other group of self-styled "social reformers" throughout history.

Either way, we'll both know where we stand.

As I said, that's the deal.

Any takers?


cheers

eon

JoeC
So in other words, you are impervious to all logic and reason. Your post basically reads as, "I don't care what you say, I'm still going to believe the other side."

Oh and as for the volcano: It doesn't matter whether the gases are detrimental are not; the POINT is that what humans produce is infinitesimal compared with what Nature does, and since the lynchpin of the AGW hysterics' thinking is the idea that humans can have not only a significant impact but a CATASTROPHIC one upon the environment... the whole argument falls apart when you consider the scale.

And yes, OF COURSE the data I quoted assumes that green house gases are a cause of global warming; that IS the majority view, especially in academia, which was the source of what I quoted.

That said: if Pinatubo produced more green house gases than all of human activity since the Industrial Revolution began, and we are sitting on the cusp of disaster, as Gore and company would have you believe... then why aren't these people screaming for us to figure out a way to keep volcanoes from erupting, before New York City drowns?

Buy into the hysteria all you want; you will only feel the more foolish in about 15-20 years, when the next solar cycle starts reversing the temperature trend.

Unfair comparison
It is inappropraite to compare global warming alarmists to barnyard animals like Chicken Little.

Barnyard animals can't be expected to know any better.

thickasabrick
"There is no free market."

Everything is relative. "Free market" is not an absolute, black/white term. We have a free market compared with almost any other examples throughout the history of the world.

And why do you people always assume that a free market abhors the rule of law, and that any laws which govern human behavior (such as the child labor laws you are hanging your hat on with this one) are antithetical?

Rule of law is, in fact, the CORNERSTONE of the Liberty on which a free market depends.

"What we have, last time I looked, was a reasonably rational combination of socialism and capitalism."

I would agree that what we have, at this moment in our history, is a mix of socialism and capitalism; I would argue with the "reasonably rational" modifier. But that's another topic.

"If it was truly free from the get-go, then most of us probably would be working in the shoe factory from age 6..."

That is a non sequitur, as well as being foolish. But again, that's another thread.

"Maybe if the oil and conventional energy industries had not been so heavily subsidized then "green energy" wouldn't need an iron lung."

Non-sensical. One subsidy does not require another. If green energy were profitable, it wouldn't matter what subsidies the oil industry does or does not receive; someone somewhere would invest in it, make their buck, and their enormous profits (since they would be the only green game in town) would drive other private investment in it.

Your fallacy is going with the usual Leftist assumption that if there is a big player in the game, then no little player can compete, unless the big player is first brought down. It's what drives every Leftist crusade against so-called "monopolies," most of which are NOT, in fact, true monopolies. By your logic, neither Montgomery Ward nor Sears nor Sam Walton would
have been able to succeed when they started out, since every one of them entered a game in which there were already hugely successful players.

It is one more example of how the Left just can't seem to grasp basic market principles.

enforcement
OK, let's say all nations sign on to the Kyoto Treaty. Who will enforce the rules?

Suppose "a country" discovers that cheating yields some benefit (profit, market share, etc). Who is going to stop them from cheating? The UN? Will the solons talk about it until the cheater quits? Will the UN talk some other country into providing troops to invade the cheating nation?

The producers of greenhouse gasses are also the producers of products society demands. Whoever is permitted to produce greenhouse emissions is also permitted to earn income and wealth.

To reduce greenhouse emissions someone must enforce a reduction in the demand for the product of the world's factories. Who will enforce the reduction in output?

Who will enforce a reduction in supply? Who will enforce a reduction in demand?

The capitalist model has mechanisms to reduce waste, therefore greenhouse emissions. Manufacturers try to reduce waste because the money not spent on waste becomes profits.

Works every time. Reduce waste, increase profits. (Yes, I know there are cheaters who displace costs to others and get away with it, negative externalities, etc. Another topic for another time.)

There you go again eon
What makes you think the left has any obligation to participate in solving anything?

They have spent more than 40 years perfecting the art of finding a problem with every solution. How can you even suggest that they abandon that in which they have invested so much time and effort?

Frey
Do your part to avoid further CO2 emissions, hold your breath.

not regional
frey,
during that time in the middle ages it was WARMER than it is now and will be in the future. Greenland was settled during that period by Vikings in an area that is now covered in snow and ice. They farmed there and grew grapes and had to leave when it got colder see:
http://www.explorenorth.com/library/weekly/aa121799.htmv
California had glaciers - melting glaciers? What about those 5 large lakes in the northern mid section of the US? They came from glaciers. People are always saying it is warmer than millions of years ago - the thermometer was invented about 300 years ago and only one country had it. Who recorded those temps? Tree rings and ice can show changes but not any degree of temp. Can computer modeling be counted as "fact". That what these non climatologist scientists are relying on based on data they put in. Garbage in garbage out? Animals go extinct all the time with no assistance from man and we have discovered new species recently. There are more trees in the US than when the pilgrims landed. Man contributes a very small percentage of CO2 and the CO2 levels have been higher when the temps were lower. Someone made a totally absurd statement about the rising temperature on Mars. They said, perhaps Mars was having a global warming cycle - but - what is causing Mars' global warming? How could it have a natural warming cycle? Can't be SUV's or people. Could it be the sun hmmm?

Blah blah blah...
...blah blah blah blah blah. That's what I hear when people start talking about human-caused global warming.

Has anyone read Michael Crichton's "State of Fear"? Yes, I realize it's a Science Fiction novel, and written to be an engaging story (which it is, by the way.) However, a few points from that book bear noting.

1. Crichton is not a world-renowned conservative. At best he's apolitical.

2. Crichton (as he does in all his novels) uses real science and applies it to a "what would happen if" motif. Specifically, in this book, he spends a lot of time debunking just about every Global Warming model at one point showing that the globe was probably warmer in the 1600s than it is now.

3. Even if you don't read the novel for the science, read the authors notes at the end. In it Crichton makes very plain the point he's trying to make: Scientists are people. They are driven by the same motives that drive everyone else. If you are paid to find a particular conclusion, you'll find it, even if you have to use really flimsy evidence. In the modern political climate, scientists get a lot more money and publication if they lock-step with the Global Warming mantra.

Someone mentioned Gallileo and Copernicus as scientists who bucked the conventional wisdom and were proven right. It was the same story then as now, if you don't go along with the conformists, your professional life is ended. There's only a few scientists who speak up against global warming, because there's only a few who are brave enough to go against the grain. What the global warming debate lacks is any real debate. We can't predict the weather for tomorrow, how can we expect to predict it 100 years from now? More to the point, presuming Global Warming exists and there's anything at all we can do about it (the latter of which I seriously doubt) how do we know what the effects are going to be when we can't even say what the effects of it are now (presuming there are any).

Of course, the Global Warming alarmists screamed loudly that the record high 2005 Atlantic Hurricane season was proof of disasterous global warming. But did you know that those same people claimed that the exceptionally QUIET 2006 season was ALSO caused by global warming? (Apparently dust from the Saharah seeded the clouds and made them lose their energy before they could become dangerous storms). Record hot summers are caused by global warming, just as are record cold winters. (I'm not making this up, folks).

A few facts about the politics of global warming:

1. As I aluded to: any disasterous natural event recently has been attributed by someone to global warming. Heat, cold, high storm seasons, low storm seasons, drought, flooding, etc. If I'm not wrong (and I may be, so take this with a grain of salt) that includes the Christmas 2004 Tsunami.

2. The Kyoto treaty was written to specificaly target the United States. The other countries that are affected by it were already, because of their long stagnent economies, at or very near the levels of "greenhouse gases" they needed to get to. Germany, because it had just been reunified with the communist (and heavy poluter) East Germany in 1989, was actually already BELOW the 1990 levels of polution in 2000.

3. The other "Major Poluters" like China, India and some African and south-east Asian nations are exempt from the treaty because they are "developing economies." This despite the fact that they produce far more polution per capita than the US (and China and India having much larger populations than the US, contribute far more polution to the world than we do.) The framers of Kyoto know that the treaty would ruin the economy of any major poluter that tried to impliment it. That's why they exempt the poor countries. So who gets to carry the burden? Us. (Oh, by the way, that's why when Bush un-signed the treaty, everyone called it dead. Without us, no one is affected and nothing happens.)

4. Best case scenario if Kyoto is implemented (as seen by the Environmentalists): The impending disaster caused by global warming is delayed for ten years. Yes, I said 10, ten, one-zero, diez, decem, the number between 9 and 11. One decade. That's it. We completely ruin the US economy, turn us into a third-world country, and all we get out of it is 10 lousy years.

Do we need to reduce polution? Sure. Less polution is always good. But we have to do it in such a way that it will actually benefit us. Ten more years isn't a benefit, it's a delay.

volcano
A huge volcanic eruption would produce enough dust in the atmosphere to cause cooling.
There was a tv show called "Dinosaurs". I believe that the last several episodes were about a disaster that may have been global warming or some critter or plant was causing a problem. They decided that if they caused some volcanoes to erupt, that it would stop it. After they caused the eruptions, they all perished in the ice age they created. Very ironic.

# of scientists???
johninoregon
Most of the scientists that support global warming are NOT climatologists. I think that most, if not all the scientists that are denying GW are. Like a hurricane specialist for example.
What does a biologist know about weather and climate.
The news is not presenting both sides and that smells of bias to me and perjhaps an unconscience conspiracy. They even want to de-certify anyone that disagrees.

johninoregon
Just the proponents outnumber the doubters in the scientific community doesn't mean they are more right, does it?
1) The earth is flat and if you sail far enough you will fall off the edge.

2) The moon is made of green cheese.

3) The earth is the center of the universe.

4) Salem was full of witches.

5) many long held beliefs are disproved later on.

True we need to conserve our resources and need to be enviromently friendly. Personally I find it difficult to believe that one degree Fahrenheit rise in a single century is anything to be concerned about.

I there many renewable resources that remain untapped such as solar, wind, tides, hydroelectric, and others not yet discovered. These would all benefit the enviroment and mankind.

I think the IPCC should be promoting these resources instead of trying to cause alarm. The masses cannot do much individually, but the masses should push industry and government to accelerate the advancement of these technologies.

Wringing ones hands and bloviating with resolutions and no action is insanity just like Chicken Little while meanwhile were are eaten by the fox of regulations and high energy costs.

wiseone
You say barnyard animals can't be expected to know any better.

Well, neither can global warming alarmists. They prove that every day.

(Didn't one of the Flying Kennedy Brothers blame global warming, and specifically that which caused Hurricane Katrina, on Bush's Racism? Or am I mixing my metaphores?)

The fascinating thing...
... about this "debate" is that on one side you have a bunch of reasonable people who want to do the right thing by the environment and the world, reduce polution, increase efficiency, and generally clean things up -- and on the other side you have a host of hatemongers whose sole purpose is to scare us into believing that disaster awaits us if we don't act NOW to avert it.

I'd be willing to wager that (despite "Captain Planet" cartoons to the contrary) no one has any active desire to increase polution, and no one in this country wants to take a small gain in income coupled with a large increase in polutants. The markets have borne out that in the US, if a company is doing something really bad with the environment (like illegal dumping or trying to get around reasonable regulations) the people stop buying their stuff. Companies from GM to Waste Management to any Oil company have ad campaigns talking about their commitment to the environment. If we could develope a safe, reliable, efficient fuel source that is as cheap as oil and coal, people will buy it by the truck load. Problem is, it has to work and stay cheap.

Happy Jake
Excellent points all. Especially your last one, which points up the core Leftist position: the belief that they are morally superior to their opponents on the right, by virtue of their compassion and shining altruism. For a stellar example of this, see my exchange with "thickasabrick" on Debra Saunders' last column. Here's quote from thickasabrick, just to get you motivated (try to hold down your breakfast):

"I think the thing that most sticks in the maw of the right is the fact that some folks actually stick up for other people's rights."

The moral vanity of these people is absolutely breathtaking.

thelgd
Reread my post. The comment on Mars was a satirical comment. My whole point was that the sun and other natural forces such as volcanos have much more influence over what happens than whether you or I drive an SUV.

If Al Gore says"It's gettin' hotter"
Then who am I to disagree with such a profound well thought out statement. After all, didn't he invent the Internet.

If memory serves me right, I think he and I were both standing on the dock when Columbus let out the clutch and sailed off to the west. Al was jumping up and down, holding himself, screaming, "you're gonna be sorry, the earth is flat, just wait, you'll fall off". Somebody reached over and smached him so hard, he ended up in the 20th century. I, on the otherhand, built a time machine and arrived here just in time to see the conclusion of the WWII. In the ensuing years, I have watched and waited for "the hand" to reach out and give Al another smack, only to discover times have changed, and idiots like Al have the MSM as surrogate pieholes, burping up whatever their little darlin' might belch forth. Al is still holding himself though, maybe as protection against Slick Willy, I don't know.


I want my GW
I want my Global Warming! Solid H2O is falling from the sky on my 'punkin head. This prevents me from taking my daily walk as prescribed by my cardiologist. Where is Algore??? I feel a heart attack coming on!

Thank you pop m
I agree with you in that we all need to be doing things to reduce emissions of any type into the atmosphere, but we don't need to go crazy. Just do your part, use newer cars with the latest in pollution control, recycle, use fluorescent(sp?) bulbs, etc. That is about all most individuals can do. The government in the mean time can help to promote private solutions for "greener" energy technologies and also help to provide us with the resources needed to sustain our current economy, i.e. allowing drilling in unpopular "environmentally sensitive" areas, etc. which will also reduce our dependence on foreign nut jobs in Iran and Venezuela and others.

Vic/ALL
Check my blog (click on my handle) for the latest on what the moonbats in Eurabia are putting out AND Gunny's STUNNING rebuttal of their nonsense.

Fergus
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think I saw some bits of you and "thick" going back and forth in a recent column, maybe it was the same one you referenced.

I often wonder how the moral high ground can be usurped by a group of people who believe strongly in moral "relativism."

Then again, what applies to us (the ignorant masses) doesn't apply to them (the enlightened elite.)

greenguy-LOL!- If Al Gore thinks
it is hot now, just wait until he finds out the fate of all liars! (Revelation 21:8)

You crack me up!

Of course, you would not touch a political figure yourself, but we can hope for the "Big Hand in the Sky" to do the work for you!

Slapping him silly would not work however, since he couldn't get any sillier.

JoeC
re: Unfortunately I am unconvinced

Off topic, but please allow me to break it down for you. The socialist/libs have a divide and conquer strategy. Divide the nation into single-issue voting blocs (sexual orientation, abortion, race, environmental issues, "social justice", etc.) and then conquer by pandering to said issues.

It is ALL about political power. Ultimately, they want government control of all wealth in order to create "equality." What they don't realize (or maybe they do) is that said "equality" will mean everyone is on the government dole - meaning we will all be equally poor.

Note that successful people who begin their lives on welfare are the exception, not the rule.

It is ALL about political power.
It is ALL about political power.
It is ALL about political power.


Getting Snowed by Politics
reading the comments of both sides, but especially elitists like Happy Jake is hilarious. The fact that this topic is so polarized politically means that you really cant trust what EITHER side is saying. You have the leftist media USING GW to futher their one-world government socialist agenda and you have the right being totally close minded that if you cant fix things right away, why even bother.

There are most likely four or five major causes to GW, only one of which is man. The other three or four man can do nothing about. So your not going to hear about them from the left as they wont promote the changes in social policy they so desperately want. The right only mentions them so as to throw a wrench into the debate, but then not do anything.

Its easy to see we need to reduce emissions. Why not go after the one cause we can do something about??? But in the same breath, we cant let the leftists of the world USE IT to attain their political goals. What we really need to do is to get off the middle east and Venezulan oil tit YESTERDAY. We could do this in five years with DOMESTIC OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION. Yes that wont fix GW in the short term. But while we are becoming NRG INDEPENDENT of the Middle East (with the ancillary benefit of defeating terrorism faster than a world war could), we could also be ramping up all forms of alternative NRG'S so that in less than 20 years, oil becomes a secondary commodity, in 30 years it becomes inconsequential. So in 20 years time we will have reversed at least the effects of man-made GW, become NRG independent and most likely defeat terrorism all at the same time.

Now its likely that the other four causes of GW, Increased solar activity, changing geomagnitism, polar wobble and eccentric orbit around the sun are having a much greater impact on GW than we are being told. If that is the case...then buy land north of Fairbanks.

Hey JoeC, did I mention
It is ALL about political power.

Frey- Ennnnnt! Wrong again!
Frey writes: Wednesday, January, 31, 2007 8:10 PM
Mountain Rose
"Oh, if there were no humans, the temperature probably still be rising. BUT, at a much slower rate. A degree in a century is actually a pretty fast increase."
***********************************

Oh yeah?

Ask me how awful it is when it is 10 whopping degrees hotter in a thousand years!

I had a conversation with a girl who kept saying "the sun is so much hotter than I remember from my childhood!"

Now, I have lived in Southern California my whole live, and the one thing that is certain about the weather is that it is unpredictable.

But within that unpridictability, there is little change. And practically Zero change in the coastline (which would be altered if the icebergs were melting significantly).

So I was mystified by this girl's statement.

So I asked her; "where did you grow up?"

"Minnesota," she replied. "Why are you laughing?"

Eagleone - who's getting snowed?
"There are most likely four or five major causes to GW, only one of which is man."
***********************************

Actually there are three attributable to man:

(1) Technology (Enternal Combustion Engine)

(2) Hot Air (Hysterical Pie Hole Flapping)

(3) Vegetarian Flatulance (Veggies produce gas)

We can do away with two of the three causes if the Leftists just stop breeding.

Oh, they already have?

Problem solved.

What greenguy left out.
Gore also was the inspiration for "Love Story".

Gore "used to be the next President of the United States".

Gore also voted against legalized abortion before he voted for it (I think he borrowed that one from John Kerry).

So if Gore said it, it must be true.


LOL Mountain Rose
Your right about that leftist breeding and flatulance thing.

However, lefties already have their "Soylent Green" = Roe V. Wade (unfortunately for the unborn).

Eagleone
US oil companies are the most environmentally conscious in the world.

When oil is discovered in Africa or the Middle East, oil will frequently be allowed to flow into the soil for days or even weeks before the new well is capped. Not so with US oil.

The US also holds our oil companies to higher environmental standards with regards to our refineries. I have 5 refineries less than 5 miles from my house. When I was a kid, my family used to pass by them on on the freeway on our way to my grandparents' house, and they were putrid!

Now, as an adult, I live in the same town where the refineries are located. My daughter's babysitter lives between two of them so I pass within a couple hundred feet of them a couple of times a week. And now, thanks to the current environmental standards, you wouldn't know they were there if they weren't such an eyesore.

A balance is necessary. Oil is the current dominant energy source. So, if you're truely concerned about the global environment you should be doing all you can promoting US energy independence since the US is the only country that cares enough to make a difference. You should be begging for drilling in ANWR, and off the gulf and pacific coasts. You should be promoting the existing technologies which provide viable, more environmentally friendly alternatives to drilling, like nuclear power (most power for the amount of waste) and coal to liquids.

The fact is that most "environmentalists" are actually more concerned with hampering economic development than they are with helping the environment. So you will never see them forward any proposal that will actually help the environment in the long term.

Eagleone- I am beginning to think
that if we permit "freedom of choice" for Leftists only, we may be on to something, provided we kick the Left out of the educational system where they hijack the minds of children who are not their own.

Is there actually any thinking going on?
Has anybody noticed that we in the US use more resources and make more emissions because we produce more stuff, some of which is sold outside the US to places that therefore don't consume resources and emit whatever?
Part of some folks' admitted agenda is to cut back on one source of CO2 and water vapor: people who exhale. Fewer of us: less impact on the planet. (Of course, that means less impact both positively and negatively, unless you believe that our impact is totally negative.)
Even hydrogen takes energy to produce, and emits water vapor when burned. It is possibly useful as an energy storage device, but not a primary energy source.
I have yet to have anybody mention the effect of chorine gas evaporation from swimming pools--which has got to be considerable, probably even more than Freon.
Speaking of Freon, aerosols which once used Freon for a propellant now commonly use butane, which is no more benign than Freon, which BTW, is about twice as heavy as air.
Whatever the merits of the arguments, the shrillness of debate and intolerance of dissent does not bode well for an actual, responsibile discussion of the subject. It is also interesting that the AlGores of the topic do not want to even consider possible mitigating factors or upsides of climate change.

Wiseone - Al Gore & Love Story
wiseone writes: Thursday, February, 01, 2007 12:37 PM
What greenguy left out.
"Gore also was the inspiration for "Love Story"."
************************************

Too bad he wasn't the Ali McGraw character.

Wiseone- or perhaps I should have said

Ali McGore?

Wingo
I totally agree with you. I have been saying the SAME things for years to my friends. I am an engineering geologist myself and I understand what you are talking about.

When I talk to enviro wacko's about this subject (drilling in ANWR) they always respond that we would kill the environment there. I then point out that with all the current drilling technologies, that an oil spill is virtually impossible now. And with spreader well tech., only about 10% of past number of oil derrecks are now needed. They still filabuster me on the issue until I then point out to them that they in essense then encourage the current shipping of oil (and LPG)through 12000 miles of the world's most delicate ecosystem (our oceans)and that the chances of an oil spill are hundreds of times greater than one in a newer oil well or new pipe line. I then pose the question, is it better to ship oil 12000 miles or 4000 miles? They dont talk to me after that.

Mountain Rose
Dont get me started on education. The lefties have had their way for 50 years and we ARE FALLING BEHIND THE WORLD EVERY YEAR. And they wonder how places like India and China are now taking our manufacturing jobs. Their min. wagers are SMARTER than ours and they work CHEAPER.

Enviro Wackos
The enviro-wackos were up in arms when the Alaska pipeline was being built in the 70's. "It'll disrupt the migratory patterns of the caribou! And they're endangered!" Well, the caribou are no longer endangered. And why? Because the temperature next to pipeline is warm enough that the caribou flock to it...and breed, and breed, and breed.

With current technology, the footprint in ANWR would likely be the smallest in the history of the oil industry.

Environmentalists' hatred of mankind is far greater than their love for the Earth.


We are but a tiny % of the equation
Now I do not claim to be an expert on this subject. Just an average guy who has a little common sense. It seems to me that time has proven that our treasured gift from God has a life of her own. She, Mother Earth, has ways of healing herself that most mortal men can not grasp or comprehend. This is called cycles. These cycles are designed to renew and replenish her lovely body. The global warming or cooling is just that... her medicine to heal herself. I would venture to guess that there are more greenhouse gases emitted into the atmosphere through natural occurrences then through man made occurrences. I would also venture to guess that volcanoes, naturally created forest fires, sand storms and such create an atmospheric blanket (for lack of better terminology) that also creates increased temperatures or as the Chicken Little's like to call it global warming. These people (Gore-ites, I like to call them) need to realize that these are pattern's that has been around for millions of years. We are but a small (infinitely small) piece to the equation. So...
If we are all so concerned about our gift that sustains are existence, then maybe we should look at ways to live in harmony with her and not pollute her body. An example... the waters we pollute with our chemicals and waste. This is a resource that we can help and that needs our assistance immediately. If you don't agree, then explain to me the explosive growth in the bottled water industry. Let's focus our direction where it belongs... on things we have control over, instead of things God and Mother Earth put in place long before we were ever here.

Why cant you just admit it
Why is it that left cant just admit when they are wrong. There is allot of complaining that the right is ignoreing Global global warming. Let me tell you a story, a true story. I was a merchant marine for about 6 years. I worked as a engineer on boats. Theese boats were nasty pollutors. Under Clinton and Green inspired evviomentalist fines for polluting were calculated to be just under the cost of fixing or solveing the problem. Some times it was cheaper to dump waste over the side then deal with it properly.
When Bush appointed new leadeship to the DEP this cahnged. He gave tax creidts to companies to update boats with newer EXTEMELY more efficeint engines and peripherals. The left freaked. Tax breaks for big companies was all you heard. The Greenies took at as him helping the enmey. This is one of the main causes I turned from the left to the right.
The left has this habbit of only telling half the story. Why is it afraid of the whole story? Why not be as accurate and percise as we can?
When you choose to ignore some facts you leave the realm of science and enter the realm of relgion.

Rose
Re: Ali McGore

The wanted to offer him the part but Ryan O'Neill refused to work with him.

Volcanoes
To all who are saying that volcanoes pump more CO2 into the atmosphere than human activity does: Sorry, folks, I checked.

On average, volcanic eruptions worldwide yield about 190 million tons of carbon dioxide per year, a small fraction of the total amount of carbon dioxide released every year (over 24 Billion tons)(wikipedia.org and volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/gas.htm). Industry accounts for over 30 times that, at least a third of the total (epa.gov).

And we know that most of additional CO2 in the atmosphere is coming from fossil fuels, not geologic processes (isotopic analysis).

To average guy
Volcanoes cause the earth's temperature to decrease.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n1_v15/ai_14902729

Bottled water is on the increase for the same reason libtards are on the increase; some people are too stupid to evacuate liquid wastes from long sided footware even with detailed instructions inscribed on the heals of such footware.

ALTERNATE NRG SOURCES
TRUTH!!
Oil is much more profitable than alternative nrg sources. When that changes, altetnative NRG sources will abound.
There is no other explanation as to why we have not updated the infrastructure to include recharging stations, hydrogen refueling stations and more useful public transportation systems.
I live outside Cleveland, Ohio and drive 20 miles
round trip to work each day. There is no dependable public transportation. If I used PT it would take more than an hour each way every day. If there was a train or bus that was much more convenient (I am not even sure I could take the current system to where i work) I would use PT and save money on gas, insurance and upkeep.

So since money talks and politicians balk, it will be many years until most any significant changes are made to address GW and middle east oil dependence.

It is unfortunate that there is no moderator between the left and the right.

The left reminds me of the used car buyer that thinks my car is junk but if they were selling the same car it would be priced as new.

Enuf 4 now.
I hope there were not tpp many MFM's, Multiple finger malfunctions, in this posting.
c'ya all later.

Timelines
It is interesting and telling that the same people who are concerned about the long term effects of "global warming" and its impact 100 years from now are too impatient to stay the course in Iraq and give the war the time it takes to win. They can see with certainty the long term effects of GW and want to take steps now to change it and avoid a future catastrophy. The same people seem to be blind to the much more real, clear and present danger of Islamofundmentalists and want to stand by and do nothing to prevent that coming catastrophy.

Mountain Rose
"But within that unpridictability, there is little change. And practically Zero change in the coastline (which would be altered if the icebergs were melting significantly)."

I guess that depends on what you call "practically." From 3,000 years ago to the start of the 19th century sea level was almost constant, rising at 0.1 to 0.2 mm/yr; since 1900 the level has risen at 1 to 3 mm/yr[www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/425.htm]; since 1992 satellite altimetry from TOPEX/Poseidon indicates a rate of about 3 mm/yr.[www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/426.htm] Tide gauge records, taken since 1880, show a similar rise. Scientists think that some of it is due to melting ice, and some of it is due to thermal expansion.

Iraq and Islamofundmentalists
Well said, KENDAK!!!
In ref to,"They can see with certainty the long term effects of GW and want to take steps now to change it and avoid a future catastrophy. The same people seem to be blind to the much more real, clear and present danger of Islamofundmentalists and want to stand by and do nothing to prevent that coming catastrophy."

It all depends if your crystal ball has a red base or a blue base.

It's the picture, stupid...
Enviromental extremists have been successful scaring the general public about global warming because they painted an incredible picture. They called CO2 a greenhouse gas, and so it is. However, the earth and its atmosphere and its oceans are so immense that some fractional percentage of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is not going to do to the earth what windows on a closed up automobile do to the inside of the car on a sunny summer day. We need the greenhouse effect to trap some of the solar energy and keep the earth livable. I remember as a kid learning that Venus was uninhabitable because it had overheated due to greenhouse gases in its atmosphere. Of course, the fact that it is quite a bit closer to the sun and that its atmosphere is different in composition may also have quite a bit to do with it. Still, just the picture of a greenhouse heating things up and overheating in the summer if not vented is quite graphic for most people.

Greenhouse gases like CO2 are soluable in the oceans and CO2 in particular is consumed by plankton and other flora in the seas. It is consumed by trees and other flora on earth. THe fact is, that if CO2 were increasing and causing the temperature to rise, we would see an increase in flora which would in turn consume more CO2. It is called a self regulating response.

Just to give you an idea of how vast the earth really is and how man-made CO2 fits...

The atmosphere contains approximately 750 gigatons of carbon as CO2. The oceans contain 38,000 gigatons of carbon. Oil reserves are probably on the order of 2000 gigatons.

Fossil fuels are contributing approximately 5 gigatons per year to the atmosphere. Land based photosynthesis extracts approximately 110 gigatons per year from the atmosphere. The oceans and atmosphere exchange approximately 110 gigatons per year in each direction. The rest of the CO2 that goes into the atmosphere comes from plant respiration, decay/decomposition of land based organic matter and other minor contributors like volcanoes, forest fires, and land use.

Sure, it is possible that we could increase fossil fuels and reach a tipping point, but considering that CO2 always has been and always will be less than 1% of the atmosphere and that there are self-regulating processes, and that man-made contributions are so small, we should not be scared into making irrational decisions. By all means, plant more green vegetation. Conserve fuel and look for alternatives. But lets understand the limitations of our models of the oceans and atmosphere and work to improve them.

kendak
It's all about idealogy and who's in the White House. The hullabaloo over global warming will die down if a Dem happens to win in '08.

If the pressure from camp Gore continues, whichever doofus that happens to be will likely sign some horrible legislation designed to curb the GW problem, sending our economy into the tank and leading to a Republican take-over in '12.

The new president will repeal the excessively restrictive measures imposed by the prior dullard in chief, and the furor from the anti-antiperspirant left will start all over again.

If an iceberg melts...
how much does the sea rise?

If you are unsure, try the experiment with a glass of ice-water.

fergusMacLennan
"Frey's Facts
'1. CO2 is a greenhouse gas.'

So is methane. So is water vapor.

CO2 forms about .0325% of greenhouse gasses. Anthropogenic CO2 accounts for 10% of *that*. As compared with water vapor, which constitutes 90-95% of greenhouse gases."

LOL! Next time, look a little closer at the encyclopedia article. CO2 forms about 0.0383% of the ENTIRE atmosphere, up from 0.028% in the pre-industrial age. Antropogenic CO2 accounts for at least 30% of CO2 emissions (epa.gov). The major natural greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes about 36-70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth (not including clouds); carbon dioxide, which causes 9-26%; and methane, which causes 4-9% (wikipedia). However, we cannot control water vapor. We can control carbon dioxide and methane.

"'2. There is more CO2 in the atmosphere every year.'

Increases in CO2 and increases in average global temperatures don't correlate except in a general way, whereas average global temperatures correlate very closely with solar output (insolation)."

Wasn't really my point, although CO2 and temperature do indeed correlate very closely.

'3. Most of the additional CO2 is from fossil fuels.'

Except that all of the fossil fuels burned in the last century don't even add as much CO2 into the atmosphere as one major volcanic eruption."

I left this in for completeness, but I already addressed it (Spoiler alert: You're totally wrong!). See my post of 2:16 PM. I included references.

Drew,
We haven't planted NEARLY as many "forests" as we've torn down.

I'm an idiot (attributed to someone else) apparently because I'm suggesting humans hurt the environment?

With news that this big report is about to come out linking humans to global warming, am I to understand it will be as summarily dismissed by you guys as every other report that's come out? Because you guys are all climate experts, you obviously know better.

This has obviously become such a political issue because alternative energy is expensive, and our current energy system makes alot of money for a lot of people. It'd be nice, though, if you naysayers could get over your party biases and at least notice that maybe humans aren't as harmless as you'd think. 6.5 Billion people in the world, do you really think we're not even a blip on the environmental radar?

That attitude just promotes a "do whatever the hell you want" mindset. I think everyone wishes we had no effect on the environment. That'd certainly make life easier. Unfortunately, the evidence says this probably isn't the case. But damn the evidence, right?

It's funny, some of you on here will take the word of a couple psuedo scientists who state that the world is less than 10 thousand years old and that the fossil record was created by Noah's flood, and yet when report after report comes out linking Global Warming to humans, you cry foul, propaganda, leftist conspiracy!!

Guess it really is all about believing what you want to believe, rather than what the evidence indicates as true.

I await the release of the new report, and I expect the comments will be similar to this article's. Some things will never change.

FeedFwd
Good point that melting icebergs don't contribute much to a rise in sea level (ice isn't very bouyant, so most of it is under the water anyway), but the ice on Greenland, Anarctica, and glaciers around the world is melting too (overall), running off the land and contributing to the sea level rise.

To the GW Alarmists
When all of you GW pushing pukes comes up with a solution that YOU alone will pay for I vote for it. Until that time you should just STFU.

Frey
Melting icebergs add NOTHING to the level of the water it floats in. Zero. The entire North Polar ice cap could melt and it wouldn't cause sea level to rise by a hair. This is a scientific law called displacement.

And this law enforces itself every time, all the time, no matter how many "scientists" have received grants that encourage them to join a "consensus" that says otherwise.

Ice and snow on land that melts will drain to the sea. The biggest source of such drainage that could result from an increase in atmospheric temperatures is from mountians. So if the Antarctic ice cap melted the seas would rise, but not as much as GW alarmists originally predicted.

On the other hand, a great deal of water also exists in the atmosphere in vapor form. We call it humidity. And the warmer the air is the greater the amount of water vapor it will hold, so the one natural phenomenon mitigates the other.

I don't know whether the increased moisture capacity of the warmer air would balance out the additional run-off.

Wiseone,
Actually, the idea that warmer air holds more water vapor is a misconception. Air doesn't hold vapor, vapor can exist in a vaccuum.

In fact, it is the temperature of the vapor itself that indicates how much vapor can exist in the air before rain begins.

In theory, global warming would lead to warmer water vapor, but the problem is, the upper atmospheres will get colder as the surface of the globe gets warmer, and as a result, the vapor will have a very low saturation point.

This cooling of the stratosphere also makes ozone depletion easier and faster, and any attempts to repair it much slower, thus only worsening the cooling and leading to a whole host of other concerns.

wiseone...
Eureka!

global warming is complex, eh?
water (and ice) produce a vapor pressure that is temperature dependent. You are right that the air itself doesn't hold the water. However, you have to have water present to establish an equilibrium vapor pressure. When we talk about relative humidity, we are comparing the current humidity with what we would expect if a resevoir of water were available and at equilibrium with the water vapor in the air at the ambient temperature. Any extra water vapor would condense. Air over the ocean will usually be saturated while air over land is seldom saturated. So even if the temperature were warmer, there won't necessarily be more water in the air, at least over land.

Why is it that the upper atmospher would be cooler if the surface is warmer?

What is so bad about global warming, assuming it isn't runaway heating? More CO2 and warmer temperatures will lead to bigger and better harvests. Warmer weather will mean more time for swimming and fishing and less time shovelling snow. Plus, with warmer weather, we will have less need for heating, although that might be cancelled out by increased need for refrigeration and air-conditioning.

To Super Mario
Yes, the laws of partial pressure et al. For all practical purposes warmer air will “hold” more moisture as the warmer moisture has a higher dew point. But the fact of the matter is that even if the air warms up a few degrees over the next 100 years the sea level will not rise because the overwhelming majority of the polar ice caps are already submerged. If this were not the case, why haven’t we already been submerged by the warming this century? Why wasn’t Florida much bigger when St Augustine was founded in 1655?

A few points:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/why-does-the-stratosphere-cool-when-the-troposphere-warms/

This is sort of complicated explanation, but basically it says this:

When there are low greenhouse gases, the upperatmosphere can get radiated heat from the lower levels, all the way to the surface of the earth. The more GHG there are, the less heat comes through, so the colder the stratosphere becomes.

As for why Global Warming might be bad, it's true, some warming would be fine, the problem is, if it IS caused by humans and we don't try and control what we put out, it will continue. Even slow heating could be harmful in 100 years.

A biggie: We run the risk of totally messing up the ecosystem of the world- Oceans will see a change in pH that will really mess up wildlife (many creatures are very sensitive to pH changes, and in the ocean we could lose tons of species). The death of ocean Algae from UV radiation from the depleted ozone releases C02, which changes the composition of the ocean to something closer to acid.

There's also the increased danger of skin cancers from a depleted ozone that breaks down in the cooler stratosphere.

Also, crops would not always be benefited by warmer weather, as many of them, too, are sensitive to outside conditions such as temp and CO2 concentrations. Warming can also lead to drought and/or scorched crops, which is obviously not good. Higher C02, in theory, could be better for crops, as it would increase the rate of photosynthesis. This C02 change, however, could result in simply more vegetation (leaves, stalks) than actual grain on the plant, and actually lead to a less productive harvest. Also, higher Co2 does lead to lower nutritional value as well, as less nitrogen and iron are absorbed. Also, protein would be lessened.

I got this information from all over the web, but wikipedia has a good base article (that's backed up and footnoted with research studies, otherwise I wouldn't have used it) at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_and_agriculture



Vic, I said above:
It's the land ice that is a bigger concern in terms of water rising. Antarctica, Greenland, Iceland glaciers, etc.

Also, how do we know florida wasn't bigger back then? Scientists have said the ocean would only rise a few feet over a century, but that's significant enough to erase many islands off of the map, and significantly impact coastal communities. And what about any cities situated below sea level?

Also, an interesting thing to note:
The Greenland ice sheet holds back enough water to raise sea levels worldwide by twenty-three feet. Scientists at nasa have calculated that throughout the nineteen-nineties the ice sheet, despite some thickening at the center, was shrinking by twelve cubic miles per year.

The antarctic ice sheet is even bigger and would cause several times the rise that the greenland ice sheet would.

To Super Mario
We know that Florida hasn't gotten bigger because St. Augustine is still on the coast and not under it. Every argument that you give here is debunked at numerous sites written by real scientists. Here is one below:

http://www.warwickhughes.com/

Wiseone: re Ali McGore
wiseone writes: Thursday, February, 01, 2007 1:46 PM
Rose
Re: Ali McGore
The wanted to offer him the part but Ryan O'Neill refused to work with him.
***********************************

I guess alternative lifestyles weren't as big of a box office draw as they are these days.

Frey- back to our earlier chat
Frey writes: Wednesday, January, 31, 2007 8:10 PM
**********************************
Mountain Rose: "Did you know that there was a spell of "Global Warming" during the Middle Ages that permitted the English to grow grapes?"
..................................

Frey: Actually, it was pretty much a regional phenomenon. The average worldwide temperature is higher now.
***********************************

Me: well low and behold, I discovered that England was not the only place in the Middle Ages that shows evidence of "Global Warming."

It seems that Whitewing Mountain in the Inyo Mountain Chain of the Sierra Nevadas, has a the fossil remains of old trees that lived significantly above the current treeline between 900-1350 AD.
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341

According to some scientists, this would have to mean that the climate would have to have been at least 3 degress Celsius (37 degrees Farenheit) warmer up there during that period of time.

So much for it being a regional phenomon restricted to England.


When I talk about Global Warming
When I talk with someone about Global Warming, I ask them this:
"If we (people) do really find out that we're causing Global Warming, what are you willing to give up to prevent it?"
I then go on to mention houses that are heated and cooled, cars, flush toilets, hair colorings, cosmetics, laundry products, cook-outs, and most articles of clothing.
If these things are causing Global Warming, are we really willing to cool off the globe by giving up these things.
As to the bird flu scare, I had given up keeping chickens years ago when I found out I'm allergic to eggs. I had not been well since.
So, last year, I started, again, to keep birds (pheasants, geese, ducks, swans, and peafowl), and I've not had the flu since. I had almost always been sick from November 'till spring in the years I didn't keep birds. Passive Acquired Immunity, perhaps?

The good side of GW
Let’s see now, if the oceans rise 23’, that would not bode well for the East and West coasts. Mmmmm, if memory serves me correctly most of the lefties live on these coastlines. Yes, bring on GW.

Man with the Big Iron
Yes, I am living for the day when Rosie ODonnell's and Danny Devito's houses are underwater.

I happen to live on a big hill, about an hour drive from the beach, but if the ocean rises enough, I can look forward to owning beach front property.

No downside so far!

To Mountain Rose and MWTBI
I guess that would mean that Washington DC would be under 23 feet of water too since it was built on swamp. Hey, bring it on.

FergusMacLennan
Hope its not too late for me to reach you now.

Can you explain how drawing a conclusion based on scientific data while failing to buy into your "global warming is a way for liberals to control others" theory makes me impervious to logic?

But based on your response I think we both agree that global warming is occurring. I just think we should not underestimate the role humans have played in this. Like I said above, I hope I am wrong 20 years from now. I just find it difficult to ignore the data pointing to the role of humans and the significance of this problem. But I guess we must be reading different things.

Frey
I will concede the point re: volcanoes; from what I have been able to find, it appears you are correct.

"LOL! Next time, look a little closer at the encyclopedia article."

My information didn't come from an encyclopedia, you obnoxious jacka$&, it came from a geologist by the name of Lee Gerhard. As it happens, I misremembered some of the details. THAT SAID...

"carbon dioxide, which causes 9-26% [of the greenhouse effect on earth]...We can control carbon dioxide and methane."

To be more specific, your datum of humans generating around 24 billion tonnes of CO2 per year seems to be correct; that puts it at about 10% of the total CO2 emissions globally; the rest comes from the oceans, plant decay, plant and animal respiration, and geologic sources. 3/4 of that 10% comes from fossil fuel burning.

Which means that, assuming your stated figures above are correct, that if we stopped burning ALL FOSSIL FUELS, everywhere, we could reduce the greenhouse effect by at most 2-3%. Assuming that the greenhouse effect is even *responsible* for the warming, more on that in the next point.

There is simply no way that that can happen. Hell, even if y'all gave in on nuclear power, and ALL electrical production was given over to nuclear plants, you still wouldn't get more than half of that figure taken care of.

"CO2 and temperature do indeed correlate very closely."

I really have no intention of debating the semantics of "very" close correlation vs. "general" correlation, except to say that you would be right if "very" included a time lag of a few hundred years. More to the point, no matter how closely they correlate, temperature variations correlate MUCH MORE closely with insolation.


About CO2 from plants, oceans, ect...
This C02 is essentially cyclically released into the atmosphere and reabsorbed through process such as photosynthesis. The CO2 released from fossil fuels, as well as other natural sources such as volcano's will ultimately increase the net carbon in the atmosphere because it does not fit into this cycle.

(this of course is drastically oversimplified as fossils were of course once on the earths surface. But this is the argument for differentiating between "naturally" released CO2 and human activity released CO2.)

Also, my knowledge of this science is minimal but it should at least be worth a basic understanding of the argument I hope.

Here's what I trying to get at
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/CarbonCycle/

This may be getting slightly off topic though.

JoeC
Because you are not drawing conclusions based on scientific data. You are 1) accepting conclusions that OTHERS, whom you consider authoritative, have drawn based on scientific data, while 2) rejecting other conclusions that have been drawn based on conflicting data, and dismissing the counter-arguments out of hand.

And no, I do not necessarily agree that global warming is happening. I agree that temperature variations occur, just as they have occured all throughout the history of the world. At present, we are on average either in a warming period, or a cooling period, depending on when you start counting. Moreover, there are some serious questions that have been raised in my mind on the methodology by which those temperatures have been arrived at. I am not persuaded either way, so this is not an argument against "global warming," just an example of one of the many questions that has been raised in my mind.

The data on which we base this idea that average temperatures are rising comes in part from a network of measuring locations which have been fixed for some time now. Many of these locations were built outside of cities, but because of urban growth, are now located WITHIN cities. There is a known phenomenon in which temps within cities are noticeably higher than they are in the surrounding hinterlands. Thus, we have one explanation why some of these temps would appear to rise.

That's just one example; I have come across a number of anomalies like that, and so for me the jury is out. Being someone who likes to think for himself, I don't accept that global warming is happening just because "They" say it is.

As for the pattern I mentioned: look up a book by Erlich, "The Population Bomb." According to THAT bit of Leftist alarmism, by now the population was supposed to have exploded to the point where we were outstripping the planet's ability to produce food, and as a consequence there were supposed to be many MILLIONS starving to death, not for reasons of local shortages but for actual lack of food. This was supposed to be going on NOW.

Whoops.

Even though there is definitely starvation in the world, it is not because we can't produce enough food.

AGW is not the first alarmist trend that is supposed to justify governmental action, and it won't be the last, sadly.

I am no geologist
this is true so I can't say I have read journal articles or anything regarding climate change. However, the only links I have posted have been from NASA. The books I have read and recommend reading our written by scientists, not politicians. I'm not sitting here quoting Al Gore or anything now am I? So how do you know where I am getting my information from? I would recommend reading books by Jared Diamond and Tim Flannery. Both are actually respected scientists and don't seem to be running for political offices. I unfortunately have not read an anti-global warming book but it may be time. The biggest misfortune here is that this has become politicized and therefore polarized to such a great extent. This seems to be a trend with science in our country.

Interesting
If we note warmer climate in past eras, the environmentalists say it was a "regional" phenomenon, but then deny any sort of regionality to the current phenomena. How can they be so sure about something that happened 1,000 years ago when there was no one taking the daily temperature?

Hey, Mountain Rose, you know I live in Alaska? Is it proof of global warming if I can't walk around the block in the noonday sun while visiting family in Texas? I mean, the sun is obviously hotter in Texas than when I was a kid going to the lake outside of Fairbanks. So, it's gotta be global warming, right?

I am pleased with people asking the environmentalists "What are you willing to give up?" to avert disaster? I don't think most of them really get that.

If they want to help, stop flying in jets and driving in SUVs to check out global climate change phenomena. Ditch the Columbia outwear and polypropeline underwear and start wearing wool and linen. Move into a communal house with four or five other families sharing 1500 square feet. I mean, if they're really serious, if it's such a global monster breathing down our necks, shouldn't they be making personal sacrifices right now?

A friend who is really into math and computers (and stuck guarding a fishing lodge one long, dark Alaskan winter) did an interesting study when the Kyoto agreement was being discussed. He figured that if the Kyoto agreement numbers were correct, he could factor for what would really need to be done in order to stop global warming in its tracks. Now, my friend is a graduate student in geological engineering. He was taking a winter off give his grandfather a chance to take a world tour and because he was really tired of academia. I think he ran out of reading material. He used sources like old Census reports and a bunch of stuff science majors have access to on the University's portal. After all the research was completed (and he admits it's not a scientific study, just one guy's take on the figures) it is his contention that we'd have to US roll industry and our lifestyles back to the level it was just prior to World War II. He was sort of shocked by that outcome because he figured it would be sometime in the 1970s, but he ran the numbers about 10 times and then asked a math god at Alaska Pacific University to run them for him and they came out the same.

So, anybody here want to do a little time travel back to 1940? It's for a good cause! Saving the planet and all that!

Joe C
You're still missing the point.

Answer this question honestly: if it weren't for Al Gore and the rest, would you even KNOW about AGW???

The tragedy isn't the Global Warming has become politicized, it is that it has been politicized from Day One. It is a manufactured crisis.

You want to be alarmist about something? Try this on for size: as of late December, the most popular baby boy's name in the UK (which joins Brussels, Amsterdam, and Malmo Sweden in this distinction) is "Mohammed."

Global Warming alarmism
has never been about actually stopping global warming. It has always been about transfer of wealth from the US and other industrialized nations to the third world. The U.N. has long been under the control of these 3rd world nations for everything that does not have to go through the security council. For the U.S. politicians on the left it's another big government boondogle for taxes. For the true enviro-whackos its about returning the U.S. to stone age; just call them the NeoLuddites.

JoeC: Cost-benefit
This is from the website JunkScience.com. While I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the quote, but there is a link on the page where you can read how they arrived at the figure. In any case this might frame the issue in some different terms.

Junkscience.com has a "Kyoto" clock that tracks how much Kyoto has cost world-wide, and how much good it has done. At 7:30 PM MST, it read as follows:

"Since February 16, 2005, the Kyoto Protocol has cost US$ 294,170,169,216 while potentially saving an undetectable 0.003050654 °C by the year 2050."

Rainforests
There is a common misconception regarding the rainforests, specifically those in South America, that they are millions of years old.

How is it then, that roads, foundations for buildings and irrigation canals dating back only about 1000-2000 years have been discovered when the trees have been removed?

Nature is far more persistent and resilient than we are being led to believe.

Fergas
Isn't Steyn great? Just started reading "America Alone" yesterday and haven't been able to put it down.

Barking up the wrong tree....
One thing I have noticed that is almost never mentioned (by either the liberals or anyone else...) - if people really want to cut down and eventually discontinue use of fossil fuels, then why do they try and push the very controversial issue of global warming?

It's quite obvious that no one (even the scientific minds) can agree on how much, if any, warming there is, and assuming there is warming going on, what the cause(s)of it are.

But there is one thing that isn't so controversial - the fact that one of these days, the earth's supply of fossil fuels will run dry, or at the very least be extremely expensive (perhaps prohibitively so) to recover therefore effectively curtailing and stopping the use of such fuels.

If the enviromentalists were smart, they'd give up trying to twist arms with GW and push for the cessation of using fossil fuels simply because at some point, maybe 50 or a couple hundred years from now, they will become extremely scarce. A gradual tapering off of fossil fuel use could be accomplished over a period of time (and not by trying to "cold turkey" people) as alternative fuels continue to be developed.

For instance, ages ago whale oil was used in lamps and for other things, but humanity had to adapt and find other ways to light up a room when we nearly ran out of whales......same thing with fossil fuel.....humanity will adapt to other methods to achieve the same end result without being scared silly over something that people can't even agree on!

And there's another thing I can't understand about some "greenies".......how come they push the use of electricity for nearly everything that is currently fueled and run by fossil fuels, yet the fact is that much of that juice is produced by power plants that burn, you guessed it - fossil fuels!

FergusMcLennan
In my defense, if others on this site can be obnoxious jack@sses about my temporary lack of knowledge on DDT and malaria, I can be an obnoxious jack@ss about your temporary lack of knowledge about carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Fair's fair.

"To be more specific, your datum of humans generating around 24 billion tonnes of CO2 per year seems to be correct; that puts it at about 10% of the total CO2 emissions globally; the rest comes from the oceans, plant decay, plant and animal respiration, and geologic sources. 3/4 of that 10% comes from fossil fuel burning."

Actually, I put anthropogenic carbon dioxide flux at 30% of the total (at least), and fossil fuel burning accounts for more than 3/4. (But I can't find the link again, so we'll stick with 3/4). So, fossil fuel burning accounts for 1/3 X 3/4 = 1/4 = 25% of CO2 emissions. Now, let's say that 20% of global warming is caused by carbon dioxide. So, fossil fuels account for 5% of global warming. Doesn't sound like much.

But wait. We're not trying to get rid of global warming entirely. Most atmospheric global warming is absolutely neccessary for life on Earth. If there were no global warming, the average temperature would be about -10 degrees C, too cold for liquid water. So, let's say the average temp is about 15 degrees C (for the sake of argument). So, normal global warming is +25 degrees C. 5% of that is 1.25 degrees. If you add in carbon dioxide from other human activities and the effects of methane and nitrous oxide, it would come almost to two degrees (scientists predict about 3 degrees of rise in the next century). Two degrees is actually quite a change, when you remember that the temperature difference between us and the Little Ice Age was only one degree C.

And, my calculations ignore the likely positive feedback effects. Ice is very good at reflecting solar energy back into space (the albedo effect). The more ice is lost to melting, the less solar energy will be reflected, and the more of it will heat us up. There's also the melting of the permafrost. There's a lot of organic material in the soil in areas (northern Canada, Siberia, Alaska) where the ground is permanantly frozen. If that ground is warmed up, the ice melts, and the organic matter in the soil becomes open to bacteria which will feed on it. With the moisture from the melted ice, it could be like a bacteria buffet, which would release even more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as the organic matter is broken down.

Some anthropogenic climate change is inevitable, of course. You can't run modern civilization without some carbon emissions (although there's probably a way to counter those. Google carbon sequestration). But if we increase fuel efficiency, and expand alternative sources, it can make a difference. Even reducing fossil fuel consumption by a fifth would have a decent impact.

OK, end of lesson. Thanks for reading.

Oh, wait, I forgot something.

"I will concede the point re: volcanoes; from what I have been able to find, it appears you are correct."

Yesss! High-fives, c'mon!

business
If it's all green commies forcing their agenda on everyone else through "the trojan horse of global warming" explain why just 2-3 weeks ago 10 ceo's of American's largest business' issued an urgent message to President Bush and Congress pushing for quicker action against global warming. The group includes aluminum giant Alcoa, BP America, Caterpillar, DuPont, General Electric, Lehman Brothers and four utilities with a big stake in climate policy: Duke Energy, FPL Group, PG&E and PNM Resources. They are calling for mandatory reductions of greenhouse gas emissions, including those from power plants, transportation and buildings.

not a great link, but you can find it on any news service anyways-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16708004/

The science? behind "global warming"

read what Chris Landsea wrote in his IPCC resignation letter look it up at sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/science_policy_general/000318chris_landsea_leaves.html
Good reading, Luke

global warming
How can "global warming" nutcases claim it is caused by mankind when the United Nitwits have already determined the cause to be cow farts?

Its How, Not "if" & perhaps, why??
First, there are considerably more than a "few" contrarians on the subject. Some of them are as knowledgeable on the subject as they get!

Think Paul Reiter, Steve McIntyre, Ross McKitrick, Edward Wegman, Richard S.J. Tol, Christopher Landsea, Duncan Wingham, Richard Lindzen, Henrik Svensmark, Nigel Weiss, Henk Tennekes, Habibullo Addussamatov and Nir Shariv, to name just a few prominent voices.

None of them can be considered slouches on the issues at hand, nor can they be associated as pawns of the "energy" industry, any more than "greenies" can be associated as pawns of supposedly altruistic wealthy sponsors, the organic industry or environmental movements, or the power & money hungry socialist bureaucrats at the UN.

One common thing is the vitriol spewed at the character of these men & any other who asks questions or challenges suspicious & dubious results which the theory is based on, rather than their factual science.

It used to be heresy to question the "hockey stick," until someone finally got hold of all of the data on which that theory was premised upon, & clearly refuted it as, flawed therefore useless. It ignored the Medieval Warming period, because with those accurate figures the theory was discounted.

Lets face it, the climate changes. Perhaps the "real" problem with the issue, is not does it or does it not happen, BUT, how do we deal with it? So called deniers ask we address the issue rationally, not from only the UN sponsored fill up our pocketbook with global carbon tax receipts percentage position.

The current proposals give a pass to "developing nations" despite China & others not fitting that category. If production simply moves elsewhere, we will have accomplished exactly, nothing. And if anyone thinks those nations will embrace a policy that stymies their productivity & therefore wealth accumulation, they must have some really good stuff they smoke!

The current proposals seem to want a carbon tax to restrict or deter use. BUT, what the taxes are, are a means for the UN to collect those taxes, and/or take a significant cut.

Kyoto has little to do with saving the planet. Its a tool so the UN gains an lucrative independent funding stream, and one that member nations cannot control like they do with their dues. The UN through, this independent lucrative funding, becomes an autonomous operation, who answers only to itself or those who control it!

That was NEVER the intention of the UN. And, few with any common sense would give over governmental control to an organization that has demonstrated such an anti-American attitude over the past ten to twenty years.

No matter how many mistakes one wants to subscribe to America, surrendering sovereignty to this organization that has its own trail of corruption and errors, is insane! And the surrender of national sovereignty to the UN "is" their ultimate goal.

The "can't we all just get alongers" will be the death of us and millions more as we fund an organization that hates us, is controlled by numerous nickel & dime member states who hate us & who have acted against us in almost everything.

Something like 77 of those nations, are Islamic. And they are fundamentalist Islamic. They want world Sharia law. If the UN gets control, the Islamists will end up killing them off so they can try to take over the whole planet.

Great conspiracy theory huh?

But, there are public statements from UN bureaucrats & their affiliated NGO cronies, who have openly said, we want to control world government.

So sorry folks, I say, solve Global Warming, just exclude UN sponsored or supported or endorsed, solutions.

Love or hate Bush, his Pacific Rim plan with Australia & others, really is the best way, probably the most efficient way, & it keeps American sovereignty, secure!

Again, the issue is more HOW, rather than IF. I would just love to uncover the real motivations of those pushing us into this meme.

Response to Ferguson's quack sources
Whoa!! Ferguson really needs to check his sources.

Your link about the Mt. Pinatubo emitting more carbon than all of the industrial revolution + is to to Charles Strut University! not Colorado State University! OPPS

Further, the author of the article says and I quote, "Please note that this is not my field. I have
a fair idea of the broad picture, but I don't understand all the
technical niceties."

The authors name is Jan Schloerer who is strongly tied with the UCS or the union of concerned scientist, who are a very small and dwindling group of global warming deniers. She has no scientific credientials that I could find.

If we are going to have a meaningful debate about the facts on this issue we need to use legitimate scientific evidence put for by real scientist, not special interest groups.




Kill Coka-Cola?
But are the Libs going to give up drinks with carbon dioxide CO2 in them like Coca-Cola and Pepsi and diet drinks and sparkling water and sparkling apple cider?


Libs and projection
I think Al Gore will go down in history as the best example of the psychological mechanism called projection. It is when one projects one shadow on another, something Libs do a lot of. teh whole "Bush lied" thing was because Clinton was caught in a lie. Now you have Gore yelling about Bush: "He lied. He betrayed this country. He played on our fears."
Well is those sentences don't describe Al Gore about global warming! Hey Al, the next time you want to say those phrases together, look in the mirror!
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