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Saturday, April 05, 2008
Johnnie B. Byrd :: Townhall.com Columnist
Abortion and a Mother's Conscience
by Johnnie B. Byrd
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News flash, April 2, 2008: Florida House passes H.B 257 mandating pre-abortion ultrasound tests. Good news for Florida where health department statistics record almost 100,000 abortions annually.

It has been a long fight since Roe v. Wade.

As a freshman law student in 1973-74, I was introduced to Roe v. Wade through a paperback supplement to my hardbound constitutional law hornbook. I vaguely remember my professor suggesting that the subject was so profound that it justified this special supplement. Treating the case as just another in the deluge of cases we briefed for con-law, many of us never paused to consider the deeper societal implications of Roe v. Wade. I wish my professor had cried out, “Wake up, a liberal Supreme Court has just embraced the social experiment of abortion-on-demand.”

So, what if he had? It was all high philosophy at that point. The pro-abortion advocates now had their mandate to lead America into an age of reason, full of adult happiness free of unwanted pregnancy. Yet, what the pro-choice advocates delivered was a holocaust like no other before it, with residual adult grief crippling unknown numbers of American women.

What have we learned? To paraphrase Stalin, we’ve learned that a single death is a tragedy but a million deaths is merely a statistic.

Of course, there has been progress in the state houses and in Congress with laws requiring parental notification and banning partial-birth abortion. But this civil rights issue will not be solved by government mandates.

On the tenth anniversary of Roe v. Wade the Great Communicator framed the issue for us in his article for The Human Life Review entitled “Abortion and the Conscience of the Nation.”

In Reagan’s words:

What, then, is the real issue? I have often said that when we talk about abortion, we are talking about two lives — the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child. Why else do we call a pregnant woman a mother? I have also said that anyone who doesn't feel sure whether we are talking about a second human life should clearly give life the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it. I think this consideration itself should be enough for all of us to insist on protecting the unborn.

I believe Reagan inherently knew that the solution was the mother, not the government, when he observed that, “Despite the formidable obstacles before us, we must not lose heart. This is not the first time our country has been divided by a Supreme Court decision that denied the value of certain human lives … we know that respect for the sacred value of human life is too deeply engrained in the hearts of our people to remain forever suppressed.”

And where else has God planted the “respect for the sacred value of human life” but the heart of the mother? And that’s where the “tipping point” has been found.

Twenty years post Roe v. Wade, after traveling the state visiting with other like-minded folks who had a heart for mothers in crisis, I helped incorporate our hometown’s crisis pregnancy center. These centers popped up about everywhere dishing out love in large quantities. Most have grown, diversified and prospered.

We somehow knew that these fledgling care centers would be the solution. Now, ultrasound technology has placed the ultimate tool in the hands of those who care the most. Fighting the legal battles to enforce HB 257 may be noble, but spending the dollars to put the technology in the hands of crisis pregnancy centers will liberate the “sacred value of human life … deeply engrained in the hearts of our people”—the mothers who the abortion industry are shamelessly convincing to suppress it.

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About The Author

Johnnie Byrd is a lawyer and host of “Johnnie Byrd’s Weekend” heard on WGUL-AM 860 in Tampa Bay, FL.
 
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Yay! More government interference.
Just what we need--the government mandating a test. Great. Yeah.

Oh wait--this sucks for personal liberty. This is an affront to individual rights. But the christo-fascists don't care, do they? Nope. The government should mandate everything about our bodies. After all: there's no difference between mandated immunizations and mandated ultrasounds. None whatsoever.

Pro-individualism
I'm already certain that a fetus is not a person. I don't need to consider it further or give anything the benefit of the doubt, because I already know. Reason allows us to draw definitive conclusions like that. A fetus may be alive, but it is not a human being, so I'm not worried about whether we should hold off on aborting it or not. That's only a consideration with actual human beings, not merely living beings. We don't protect a clump of growing cancer cells do we? No. Since a bit of protoplasm is not a human being, it does not have a right to live. If you still harbor doubts, then you can take my opinion on faith. You are used to taking things on faith, so why stop now?

Incidentally, I don't call a pregnant woman a mother unless she has borne live children. It would be irrational to do so, since a mother is the progenitor of another human being, and a fetus is manifestly not a human being. Like other people, if I see a first-time pregnant woman, I say, "She is going to be a mother."

By the way, if you are so sure that this issue will be solved by mothers, not government mandates, then why do you keep trying to solve it by government mandates?

Also, who is going to pay for the mandatory do-gooding ultrasound?

I guess big bad government really isn't that big and bad to you. Remind me again why you consider yourself right-wing?

Fetus not a person?
Wendy confidently asserts, "I'm already certain that a fetus is not a person." On the basis of what evidence or argument does she justify her certainty?
One can dream up any definition or criteria that supports one's convictions in this area, but personhood is not a convention or a construct.
Why is a fetus a person?
It is an organism with human DNA produced by human parents, and if given time and sustenance, will exhibit the obvious signs of human personhood--speech, free choices and so on. What else do humans re-produce but other human persons? If the fetus is not a human person, then when does it become one--at what stage? At the moment of the birth, it can do no more than it did 2 months prior to birth. Just because it depends on the mother, that has no bearing on what sort of entity it is--anymore than dependence on a pace-maker changes the nature of an adult human.

The identification of a fetus with cancer cells reveals more about Wendy than the fetus. One can also call the human head a mere "lump of flesh", (Shakespeare), but this omits everything unique and characteristic of the head. The fetus, unlike cancer cells, is a natural organism, naturally found in women who engage in reproductive behavior. A fetus is an immature human, incapable of speech or of defending itself from attack--much like a new born infant. So, someone else needs to step in and help protect it from attack.
GJ

abortion is a pychotic matter
The same sordid people that argue for the continuation of this twisted tax payer funded program,reminds me of the same sick selfish, monsters that endorsed slavery and fought and threatened anyone who stood against them,those that attempted to win over a some what reasonable people to end that stain on humanity was shunned ridiculed harassed so the moralless could have their way.

But low and behold they changed the subject matter to reflect the madness within by say coloreds are not really people they are descendants of apes, that was bigoted then as well as now.

Curious that the leftist homicidal ways are always so near to the surface,always a great effort in getting rid of inconvenient people.

And what's more they find some stupid demented educated fool to touch and agree write papers on how this is a service,and why it is so great.

Thats funny knight
you don't mind government control when it supports your view.

The Nazi tactic...
...of defining human beings out of existence is still with us.You know,the NAZI's didn't kill Jews,they just had a "final solution to the Jewish problem".Problem solved.

The first two posters exemplify the Nazi attitude.So I guess we really did lose WWII in this respect.You know,call a baby by another name and you can kill them with a clear conscience.To all those who are opposed to the death penalty for murderers,I just want you to know that we are not killing a human being,just "eliminating a blob of protoplasm".Fair enough?

Oh yes,let us not forget that slavery was justified by our founding fathers because the Negro was not really a human being.Close,but not there yet.

This "defining" of human beings out of existance is a lot of fun.I think I'll take up the practice.

my 2 cents
Life begins at conception.

That fact is

my 2 cents
Life begins at conception.

That fact is NOT going to go away or change.

Wendy is wrong scientifically
Wendy can believe that the sun revolves around the earth, too, but that doesn't make it so. She "doesn't believe" that an unborn human child is a human being? How utterly quaint! That's a designation of species, my dear ignorant Wendy; human beings are not capable (yet) of giving birth to anything other than their own species.

The U.S. Supreme Court never said that a child at the fetal stage of development is not a human being; they said it was not a PERSON WITHIN THE MEANING OF THE 14TH AMENDMENT. We can debate whether THAT conclusion is warranted or not. But "not a human being"? That's so ignorant it's actually frightening. What's next? Jews aren't human beings? (Oops, already did that one.) Blacks aren't human beings? (Well, we never said they were human, just that they weren't persons within the meaning of the Constitution - sound familiar?) Anyone else we'd like to get rid of? Sick people? Old people? People on death row? Disabled people (Oh, wait, we're already doing that, too.)

Wendy's lethal combination of ignorance and righteous indignation is just one reason why Roe v. Wade and rarefied legal dissembling like it are such bad precedent. It's a very small jump for the average Joe (or Wendy) from "not a person" to "not a human."

Oh, and by the way, Wendy, neither a clump of cancer cells nor any human human appendage is "a human being," even if it is human tissue. It has to do with have a complete set of chromosomes, DNA, and a whole host of other basic principles that are the subject of high school biology.

As for taking her word on faith, I'll ignore that bit of self-deification.

And finally, no one ever said that government has no role in protecting lives.

Wendy can be certain....
...but she can still be dead wrong. Sorry, but try employing an electrocenphlenegram. Kids in the womb have brainwaves, which is an *empirical* sign of consciousness. They happen to be from the same species as you. Pray tell, what differentiates you from them? What provides you rights and status as human but renders them as less than human?

Last I checked, the argument can be made that you too, Wendy, are nothing more than a clump of cells. The fact that you are completely intolerant of a child requiring nourishment from his or her mother reveals that if you were confronted with a case of conjoined twins, you would let one twin, who relied on the other and not vice-versa, to be discarded as a "parasite."

The notion of strength or biological vitality being equated with moral standing and rights is an idea that finds its roots in social darwinism. Survival of the fittest, eh?

You say that fetuses are not human beings. By the same token, with a philosophy such as this, I sincerely question whether or not you are one.

Wendy,

What do you supose that "blob" of protoplasm is ? A chicken ? A dog ? Maybe an endnagered moonbat ?

Science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt,,,,even though time had proven 100% of pregnancies were huuman beings.

Lets make sure we remember this when debating global warming,where the Wendy's of the world say science is absolute.

We can prove that the looney left does not believe in all science ,,,just the science they believe in ....

Prochoice
Wendy is a strong pro-choice advocate. She feels it's up to the individual WOMAN to decide whether or not to bring a child into the world.

The issue with the pro-life side is that not only are they against abortion, they are against any kind of sex education whatsoever, except abstinence. Prevention of pregnancy is what has driven down abortion rates in the last 35 years. The more knowledge men and women have about conception and contraception the better choices they will make.

The pro-life side does not want to discuss contraception as a way to reduce unwanted pregnancies. They want to label those single women as "fallen". They do not want to discuss birth control.

wrightsrong1
Even though your argument is beside the point of natural human rights and abortion, it is nevertheless another issue. Let me ask you this though: Have you ever asked why it is that pro-life advocates argue for abstinence only or no sex-ed at all?

Sex-ed, as with any health education (drugs, nutrition) at its core lies advocacy about how one *ought* to live one's life. When one discusses what is healthy or unhealthy, deems what is healthy to be equivalent to that which is good or right, and that which is unhealthy to be that which is bad or wrong. You can apply this to nutrition, drug-use, and sex. To suggest that sex-ed is somehow neutral or should be universally acceptable is delusional. Anything which says what *ought* to be done is by definition ideological, and is subject to ideological scrutiny, debate, and outcry.

wrightsrong2
Here are the issues with sex-ed: The government should not be undermining good morals which parents wish to instill in their children. By speaking of contraceptives with an amoral attitude and by extension since this "education" is directed at teens who have sex outside of marriage (since teens cannot get married), one is in fact promoting promiscuous sexual behavior outside of marriage. If you're a parent who finds this to be either immoral, or at the very least unwise, of course you're going to elicit objection.

Teens do not possess the maturity to have sexual relationships, and sex should be within the confines of marriage to ensure that people genuinely care for and love one another, rather than simply use each other as a means to solely selfish physical pleasure.

Good morals should be promoted, rather than perverse values under the banner of "education." One does not lecture someone not to do something as either remarkably unwise or immoral, and then say, "But if you're going to go out and do immoral/unwise act anyway, here's how you do it." That is endorsement, plain and simple, and I will fight tooth and nail against promiscuity and the treatment of other human beings as personal masturbation toys.

Pro-"choice" nonsense!
So, there is no difference between a clump of cancer cells (which grow to become a tumor) and a clump of embryonic cells (which grow to become a person)? And who says that pro-life people are opposed to birth control and sex education?? There may be some, but those of us who are opposed to barbaric, cruel and inhumane practices like partial birth abortion are NOT a monolithic group. I certainly believe in personal responsibility, including the use of birth control, within committed relationships.

It may be cliche, but true: Isn't Wendy (and her ilk) happy that their "potential mothers" saw fit not to dispose of her?

What are you talking about, Solo?
I'm an anarchocapitalist. That means I DON'T WANT ANY GOVERNMENT AT ALL, PERIOD.

Here's a handkerchief to wipe the egg from your face.

The Nazis enslaved people
Just like the christo-fascists want to enslave women to the fetus.

Fetus & zygote != person
It's not sentient.

It's within the confines of another being.

Surely that being (aka the woman) is a person. And has ownership of her body.

Or do you fetophile christo-fascists wish to endorse slavery? Why yes--yes you do. You wish to strip all personhood and all rights from the woman. If she does not have self-ownership, she has no rights. Period. All rights are based on self-ownership. Deny that and you have a performative contradiction, for you are denying that which you are using.

wrightswrong
"The issue with the pro-life side is that not only are they against abortion, they are against any kind of sex education whatsoever, except abstinence."

That's a straw man argument. I'm pro-life, and I have no problem with sex education per se. However, many programs in public schools push everything BUT abstinence.

"The more knowledge men and women have about conception and contraception the better choices they will make."

We've had sex education in schools for more than twenty years. Why are so many teenage girls still getting pregnant?

"The pro-life side does not want to discuss contraception as a way to reduce unwanted pregnancies. They want to label those single women as "fallen". They do not want to discuss birth control."

Another straw man argument. Most pregnant women have already made one irresponsible choice when they had unprotected sex. We don't want to label them as anything, but we also don't want them to make another irresponsible choice by killing their babies.

Squarepeg
Would you agree that the use of birth control is the best way for active sexual partners to prevent pregnancy?

Would you agree that the nature of their relationship whether committed or casual is their own business?

wrightswrong
"Would you agree that the nature of their relationship whether committed or casual is their own business?"

If a couple's sex life is "their own business", then why should we have sex education at all? You can't have it both ways.

"Would you agree that the use of birth control is the best way for active sexual partners to prevent pregnancy?"

Birth control is not completely effective. Abstinence works every time it is tried. I agree that public schools can't regulate sexual behavior, but they could do more to encourage responsibility.

Ken
The "rate" of teenage pregnancy is going DOWN.
It's not the schools or societies business to educate their children. It's you and I as parents.

"Another straw man argument. Most pregnant women have already made one irresponsible choice when they had unprotected sex. We don't want to label them as anything, but we also don't want them to make another irresponsible choice by killing their babies."

It seems like you are giving the fathers a free ride in this.

wrightsrong
"It's not the schools or societies business to educate their children. It's you and I as parents."

Then why should there be sex education in the public schools? You can't have it both ways.

"It seems like you are giving the fathers a free ride in this."

Red herring. I believe fathers should be held accountable. Legalized abortion gives the fathers an easy out. I suspect that's why so many men support it.

Stoic P
So we OUGHT to listen to you, right?

So people who are not married OUGHT not have sex?

And how will you fight "tooth and nail" the hundreds of thousands of unmarried and maybe even teenage couples (or three-somes) who will be having sex today? I don't believe they think they're being immoral.

Do you know how many couples live together outside of marriage? Morals are such a personal thing. How does sex outside of marriage hurt you, exactly?

Big whoop for Florida

It should not be a surprise to me that the Great State Of Florida has mandated ultrasound tests. Do any of them know what a 12 week old fetus looks like? If they think an ultrasound will dissuade a woman from getting an abortion, it makes their collective stupidity in the Schiavo case look like grand philosophy.

Riddle me this: What makes a man, man? What constitutes a human being with all inherent rights and privileges?

For right to lifers, it is apparently a unique genetic code that begins at conception. For me it is not.



Ann Coulter hates liberals
When they bring out people like Michael J. Fox and argue for stem cell research. "How can you argue against that?" The quote might no be exact, but it is the essence. She was right.

The death of the zygote for stem cell research is an anathema for Right to Life individuals. Here's the problem:

Fox is advocating stem cell research while spasming from his Parkinson's disease. A right to lifer is arguing against stem cell research while holding a 3 inch diameter petri dish with a dot barely visible in the center. That dot has all the rights of a human being that Fox has.

Show that to an audience of 100 people and see what you get.

Bleeding Heart
"For right to lifers, it is apparently a unique genetic code that begins at conception. For me it is not."

All right, let's hear it. What exactly do YOU think constitutes a human?

Ken
Sex education is a fact in schools. I don't want anything both ways. I live in the real world, you can opt out of public education. There's private school or home school if you don't want them hearing about it. I don't think you want anyone hearing it do you?

I had no problem with the combination of sex ed in school and our parenting as far as my own children are concerned.

Teenagers are curious, you can't hide things from them in this day and age. They will NOT listen.
Abstinence only is a very thin defense line.

wrightswrong
"There's private school or home school if you don't want them hearing about it."

But my taxes still have to support the public school system.

"Teenagers are curious, you can't hide things from them in this day and age. They will NOT listen."

On the contrary. Studies show that many teenagers are not sexually active. Many students do want to abstain from premarital sex. What's wrong with the public schools encouraging them in that direction?

"I don't think you want anyone hearing it do you?"

Why are you so determined to impugn my motives? Is it because you can't answer the questions I've raised?

Pro-choicer; you're right.
The premise: The fetus/zygote is merely a clump of tissue in the woman’s body. The woman has a right to decisions concerning her body.

The Validation: Currently the mother signs an agreement with the abortion clinic giving them permission to perform a procedure on her body. I propose that at that time a cheek swab is taken. Then a post-procedure autopsy is performed on the removed tissue to insure that the DNA of the removed tissue matches the DNA of the signer. If it does not match, it is obvious that the abortion clinic did not have the authorization of the human being undergoing the procedure.

It is not new legislation, merely a new safeguard to insure that the abortion clinic is complying with existing law requiring the signature of the patient. Let Roe V Wade remain on the books as a monument to man’s inhumanity to man, like a Holocaust memorial.

Abortion Wars
I have three children, 26, 19 and 17 (almost 18). I have tried to teach them sex education from an appropriately early age, and most importantly, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I've told them what they need to do to prevent early parenthood, and like it or not if they choose to have sex (none of them are promiscuous), they are trying to ensure using prevention that they do not become parents until they choose a life's partner and marry. I was married for 10 years before having children and abortion was never even a thought if I became pregnant because I accepted personal responsibility to prevent it as the wife of a student and being the entire support of the family.

Knight -person and Wendy
All lovers of Truth and Liberty want to protect life.
I'm guessing you really just believe there are too many people on the planet.
Denying a woman a small waistline for 8 months is not turning her into a slave. I've carried 4 babies and there really wasn't any slavery involved. An occasional upset stomach and uncomfortable sleep was about it.
There are long lines of couples waiting for a baby to hold and to love.

Abortion Wars
Abortion as just another form of birth control is murder....

Wright is wrong 52
THere are alot of people suffering from incurable STD's in this country because of something they did in college or high school.
Show them this info and they will wait.
People don't need to learn how to have sex they figure it out all by themselves. Wink-wink,nudge-nudge.

Susan
"PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY"

In the words of Shakespeare, "Aye, there's the rub!" Personal responsibility does indeed head off a number of problems. Unfortunately, this is a foreign concept to many in today's society. To those of the liberal persuasion, the words border on profanity.

Great post!

Bleeding Heart Liberal
“holding a 3 inch diameter petri dish with a dot barely visible in the center. That dot has all the rights of a human being that Fox has. Show that to an audience of 100 people and see what you get.”

In your search for the dramatic you’ve created the ironic. Fox once was that dot. Snuff out the dot and you snuff out Fox.

Irresponsible choice?
We are, of course, still using the dictionary definitions of "responsible" and "responsibility", are we not, Ken? Then how can you dare claim that abortion is an irresponsible choice?

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY
Ken,
It has to start somewhere...if I've prevented one unwanted pregnancy by teaching my 3 children personal responsibility, then it is indeed positive forward motion...

Dear Robert E Foofaw
If anyone here should wipe the egg from his face, its you, Sir Limplance. You might want to reflect a bit on the fact that governments, by definition, infringe upon liberty, and all they do is sow discord, foment hatred, and wreak havoc.

Further, one must wonder how, if, as Hobbes says, governments are there to make people agree to things, governments were ever created in the first place, since the formation of a government requires people to agree to create it! It's a chicken/egg problem that you, Robert E Foofaw Limplance, should know about.

All pro choice people
Don't hide behind colorful speech. Come right out and say " I'm for Baby killing." The Supreme Court made it legal. Be proud of your position. Don't let those prolife people steal your thunder, take the post abortion picket signs from them and carry them proudly chanting "I'm for Baby killing!" Show the world what kind of blood thirsty murdering genocidal savages you really are.

Joycey
"All lovers of Truth and Liberty want to protect life."

Then the christo-fascists should start by not wanting to murder innocent Iraqis, shouldn't they?


"I'm guessing you really just believe there are too many people on the planet."

You guess incorrectly. The christo-fascists, however--they believe that. Why else do they want to murder innocent Iraqis?


"Denying a woman a small waistline for 8 months is not turning her into a slave."

Yes it is. You have taken her right of self-ownership. You have made her a slave. Period. Self-ownership is absolute and inalienable.


"There are long lines of couples waiting for a baby to hold and to love"

And that means....she should be forced against her will to carry the fetus? What sort of monster are you?!

All pro slavery people
Don't hide behind colorful speech. Come right out and say " I'm for slavery." Be proud of your position. Don't let those pro-war people steal your thunder, take the "America: Love it or Leave it" signs from them and carry them proudly chanting "I'm for slavery and for murdering innocent Iraqis, too!" Show the world what kind of blood thirsty murdering genocidal savages you really are.

Ultrasound
I've never posted my opinion on this site before, but feel today I have something that I really want to express... I am now 44 and the mother of 4 wonderful children, and 1 beautiful 2 month old granddaughter. When I was 16 years old I had an abortion at a women's clinic. I was given no information at all on what I was about to do. When I was 21 I worked with a young lady who was pro-life. She showed me pictures of what i had done to my baby...I broke down and sobbed uncontrollably!!! I believe in GOD, But I am not a Holy Roller. I know in my heart of hearts that had I been able to see an ultrasound of my baby I never would have aborted her... Life would have been a struggle but I know that we would have made it..My 20 year old daughter just gave us our 1st grandbaby. She is unmarried,the sperm donor has had nothing to do with her since he found out. He nor his family has even seen her. Our daughter knows that her life will never be the same, But she could not KILL her baby. She is now estranged from her oldest brother because he thought she was stupid and selfish for wanting to keep the baby. She really did think long and hard about her decision. I am proud of the 1 she made. I'm sitting here crying because when I look at my granddaughter I see the baby that I killed. If only I had more access to information, such as when does a fetus heart beat, when do they suck their thumb. It breaks my heart to know that all these years later young ladies are still making decisions on wheather or not to have their babies without all the info they need. My oldest daughter had an abortion a few years ago, she killed her baby on my birthday, that was almost too much to handle..I think she also regrets it simply because she justifies her actions by referring to her abortion as a procedure...Or maybe she's just 1 of those women who are able to just walk away and never look back. God Bless

Dirtly little secret
Here's a dirty little secret. Registered Republican voters get abortions and they get abortions in like number as Democrats.

The problem with comparing abortion to slavery is that since the founding of this country there have been voluntarily "slave free" communities.

Show me the "abortion free" communities in this country that do not rely on the law?

Which kinda shoots they whole notion down that mother's are the key to the pro-life movement.

My mother always use to say you need to get your own house in order before you can help other's with there's.

Claiming that only "liberals" get or want abortions is a lie at best and diabolical when given honest consideration.

It is a false dichotomy to posit that only liberals want abortions, have abortions or support Roe. v. Wade.

But conservatives aren't really interested in "saving lives" or promoting a "culture of life". If they were they'd get their own house in order before trying to fix others. No, conservatives really want is to

a.) Pass judgment on others as murders and getting off on feeling sanctimonious playing God.

b.) To hate liberals.

When abortion free communities and states appear because the citizens voluntarily refuse to get abortions then you might be able to paint a national picture of how abortion is a liberal only issue. But that's not the case. The case is that all the conservatives who want abortion are all to happy that liberals are willing to champion the issue all the while spewing anti-abortion rhetoric in support of their anti-abortion politicians.

There is a word for it.

It's called denial.

We can also through in another for good measure, hypocrisy.

WENDY ETAL

.....A woman has a choice whether to have sexual intercourse or not ...she has a choice whether to use birth control or not ...if she gets pregnant she has a choice to keep the baby or to give it up for adoption ...she should not have the choice of whether her baby lives or dies .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
It's her body. She has the choice of whether or not to continue to allow the fertilized egg/zygote/fetus to be in her body.

Or do you think that a woman has no right to her own body? Is that it, slavemaster?

Knight of Baaawa
Slavery has nothing to do with blood thirsty genocidal murdering savages. Slavery is about putting people in bondage to work for you. A slave owner actually wants his or her slaves to procreate so they can have more slaves. Thats still a step up from the pro abortion people. Slavery was abolished in the United States, what does that have to do with America, Love it or leave it.

Ken
No, I don't mind schools teaching abstinence, or any other method of birth control.

You have no say in how your taxes are spent, except by elected those you hope will follow your wishes. If local schools are not operating the way you like, it sounds like the majority rules.

questions
If life does not begin at conception, then when DOES
it begin?
Is a fetus NOT a human being?
Is the U.S. Supreme Court more qualified to answer that question than You-Know-Who?
Are you willing to bet eternity on your answer?


wrightswrong
"If local schools are not operating the way you like, it sounds like the majority rules."

So if the majority opposes your brand of sex education, should the majority rule?

Informed Choice
I would think pro-CHOICE advocates would have no problem with ultrasounds before abortion. Just as you want comprehensive sex education so that teenagers can make informed decisions about sex, shouldn't we give a woman all the information she needs to make an informed choice to have an abortion? I was given an ultrasound before I had surgery to remove an ovarian cyst, and then the procedure was explained to me. Shouldn't a woman be given this same in depth explanation before undergoing an abortion?

Susan
I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I actually agree with what you said. As I said, though, "responsibility" is a foreign concept to most liberals.

knight
Given the intemperate and inflammatory language in your posts, I don't think you have any business lecturing anyone on responsibility.

Joycey says
"THere are alot of people suffering from incurable STD's in this country because of something they did in college or high school.
Show them this info and they will wait."

Or they will figure out how to minimize the risk and try it anyway.

"People don't need to learn how to have sex they figure it out all by themselves. Wink-wink,nudge-nudge."

They have it figured out at 13 or 14 and even younger. They are not waiting. They are using contraception or other forms of non intercourse sex.

I am tired of you telling a woman what -

You men will never get pregnant, and if anyone else is pregnant, it is none of your business, unless you caused it. Did you notice that there are few if any comments about the idiot who is really responsible for the pregnancy?

There are a few women who constantly scream about this, but they have no business screaming about abortion unless they are the one who is pregnant, and they want an abortion. Other wise it is none of your business.

I am in favor of abortion for one reason and one reason only -- if the alternative is potentially worse.

If an abortion is better than the alternative, and the female involved is the only one who can make that decision. I don’t want the Government or any other person giving her a command.

And that is more important than any of you wanting to feel great, by forcing someone to live by your dictates.

Some people say life begins at conception, but that is just an opinion, why stop there?

I would think there is just as much life in sperm and the female seed (whatever it is called) as in a fetus. The fact that they have yet to meet each other is no different to me than the fact that a fetus has not yet breathed the breath of life.

When you look at an apple seed, or a grain of corn, in your minds eye, can't you see the actual plant?

And again I ask, "Are you one of those who watch TV news stories of starving babies and cheer, and say, At least she didn't get an abortion!"

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti -- It was lunchtime in one of Haiti's worst slums, and Charlene Dumas was eating mud. With food prices rising, Haiti's poorest can't afford even a daily plate of rice, and some take desperate measures to fill their bellies. Charlene, 16 with a 1-month-old son, has come to rely on a traditional Haitian remedy for hunger pangs: cookies made of dried yellow dirt from the country's central plateau.

not enslaved, knight_of_baawa
and I hope Wendy's post was some kind of satire or parody

it's quite telling the kind of logical equivocations these pro-abortion zealots must construct to justify their positions.

a fetus is likened to cancer cells?
a woman is "enslaved to a fetus"?

rather than the unnecessary deconstructions of these logical fallacies (which would surely fall on deaf ears and recalcitrant minds), I offer this observation: is it any wonder that their candidate would use the phrase "punished with a child"?

wrightswrong
"They have it figured out at 13 or 14 and even younger. They are not waiting. They are using contraception or other forms of non intercourse sex."

On the contrary, many young people are choosing abstinence. Why do you find that so hard to accept?

A thought on fathers
A woman gets a choice after conception has occured as to whether or not she would like to become a mother. If she does not want to become a mother she can terminate the pregnancy. After conception, a man does not get that same choice. If the woman wishes to go through with the pregnancy, once the baby is born he is a father whether he wanted to be or not. Since a woman can terminate or continue the pregancy regardless of the man's wishes, why then should he have to pay child support?

Post Holer wendy et al
Are you liberals unable to debate without moral relativism?

Are you liberals unable to face reality without manufacturing your own facts?

Wake up call Wendy - you are entitled to your opinion, but your assertions are not information that becomes a fact because you declared it so.


jim
Are you still in Highschool?

GradGirl
Great Post!

You sound like my daughters and you would get along very well.

Ken
"If local schools are not operating the way you like, it sounds like the majority rules."

So if the majority opposes your brand of sex education, should the majority rule?

Yes, Ken, Yes. If "abstinence only" was the sex education model here and I didn't like that, I would move. I would most likely adapt and add any items I felt age appropriate.

Retired Geek
You hit the nail on the head. Liberals can't face reality thats why they hide behind colorful euphamisms. The convoluted logic is one of my favorites. Like jim comparing plant seeds to Human beings.
My guess is they can not face their own demons.

Ken
"They have it figured out at 13 or 14 and even younger. They are not waiting. They are using contraception or other forms of non intercourse sex."

On the contrary, many young people are choosing abstinence. Why do you find that so hard to accept?

I don't have any trouble accepting that information.
Actually I think it would be most young people under 16 are in that category. When did say anything rejecting your comment, when? Some kids are active some not. do you not agree with that?

No Choice for the woMAN, the IDIOT

Semperfi/par writes: Saturday, April, 05, 2008 11:38 AM
" I'm for Baby killing."
============

Well you are the only one who said that, and since you are still in grade school at best, and don't know the difference between a breathing human and a bunch of "stuff," I guess that's the best we can get from you.

You are for Baby Killing, I'm for a woman's choice to do as she wishes.

The idiot man who took no care as he was having his fun, is a criminal, and has no choice in the matter.

What is it you didn't understand in my first post, and how long did you cheer at the little News Article I included?

You loved that article didn't you !!!!!

wrightswrong
"When did say anything rejecting your comment, when?"

I only went by what you said: "They have it figured out at 13 or 14 and even younger. They are not waiting. They are using contraception or other forms of non intercourse sex."

Kimmie
I taught advanced computer programming and still make great use of a bebugger to correct my code. Knowledge may or may not have changed your decision.

God promised to forgive our sins and forget them, something which you and I are incapable. Scars serve a purpose both physical and emotional, to remind us that something bad happened to us.

Saul sinned against God, David sinned mainly because he could not control himself. God hated Saul and loved David.

We are admonished to love our neighbors as our selves. Something that is impossible if we hate ourselves. Press on to the future and view your past as only scars.

Semperfi
"Slavery has nothing to do with blood thirsty genocidal murdering savages."

Such as the savages who want to murder innocent Iraqis.


"Slavery is about putting people in bondage to work for you."

Not necessarily. It's simply about ownership. And if the woman doesn't own herself--who owns her? If she cannot have an abortion, her right of self-ownership is denied, and therefore someone else owns her, i.e. she is the property of someone else, i.e. she is a slave.

Period. End of story.


"Slavery was abolished in the United States, what does that have to do with America, Love it or leave it."

Just showing the disconnect between the bloodthirsty savages who want to murder innocent Iraqis and those same people who wish to "protect the innocent fetus".

Ken
There's neither intemperate nor inflammatory language in my posts. So please: don't lie. And yes: I can lecture people about responsibility.

So tell me: are we still using the dictionary definitions of "responsible" and "responsibility", or are we using you pet definitions? Please let us all know.

Bet what eternity, Uncle Max?
Were you implying something there, Uncle Max? Please state it for us all to see. And if you make a claim in your statement thereof, you do need to back it.

May19
"I would think pro-CHOICE advocates would have no problem with ultrasounds before abortion."

Only if it's her CHOICE. But she isn't given the CHOICE. It's FORCED upon her.

See the difference?

GradGirl
"it's quite telling the kind of logical equivocations these pro-abortion zealots must construct to justify their positions."

Such as?


"a fetus