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Wednesday, October 28, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Self-Governance Works
by John Stossel
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Much of what government does is based on the premise that people can't do things for themselves. So government must do it for them. More often than not, the result is a ham-handed, bumbling, one-size-fits-all approach that leaves the intended beneficiaries worse off. Of course, this resulting failure is never blamed on the political approach -- on the contrary, failure is taken to mean the government solution was not extravagant enough.

We who have confidence in what free people can achieve have long believed that government should not venture beyond its narrow sphere of providing physical security. It should not attempt to cure every social ill. So it's good to learn that serious scholars have demonstrated that our intuitions are right. Free people, given the chance, solve what many "experts" think are problems that require state intervention.

Arguing with Idiots By Glenn Beck

For that reason, Elinor Ostrom's winning of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences ought to kindle a new interest in freedom. (See my earlier column here.)

Ostrom made her mark through field studies that show people solving one of the more vexing problems: efficient management of a common-pool resource (CPR), such as a pasture or fishery. With an unowned "commons," each individual has an incentive to get the most out of it without putting anything back.

If I take fish from a common fishing area, I benefit completely from those fish. But if I make an investment to increase the future number of fish, others benefit, too. So why should I risk making the investment? I'll wait for others to do it. But everyone else faces the same free-rider incentive. So we end up with a depleted resource and what Garrett Harden called "the tragedy of the commons."

Except, says Ostrom, we often don't. There is also an "opportunity of the commons." While most politicians conclude that, depending on the resource, efficient management requires either privatization or government ownership, Ostrom finds examples of a third way: "self-organizing forms of collective action," as she put it in an interview a few years ago. Her message is to be wary of government promises.

"Field studies in all parts of the world have found that local groups of resource users, sometimes by themselves and sometimes with the assistance of external actors, have created a wide diversity of institutional arrangements for cooperating with common-pool resources."

She has studied, for example, self-governing irrigation systems in Nepal and found successes never anticipated in the textbooks. "Irrigation systems built and governed by the farmers themselves are on average in better repair, deliver more water, and have higher agricultural productivity than those provided and managed by a government agency. ... (F)armers craft their own rules, which frequently offset the perverse incentives they face in their particular physical and cultural settings. These rules may be almost invisible to outsiders. ..."

In "Governing the Commons," she writes about self-governed commons in Switzerland, Japan, the Philippines and elsewhere that date back hundreds of years. For example, in the alpine village of Tobel, Switzerland, herdsmen "tend village cattle on communally owned alpine meadows" under rules of an association created in 1483. The rules govern who has access to the grazing lands and how many cows a herdsman can place there, preventing overgrazing. The cattle owners themselves run the association and handle the monitoring. Sanctions are imposed for violation of the rules, but compliance is high.

Don't mistake the association for government. Rather, it is a private co-op designed for a narrow purpose. "All of the Swiss institutions used to govern commonly owned alpine meadows have one obvious similarity -- the appropriators themselves make all the major decisions about the use of the CPR."

She found something similar in Japanese villages, where residents use private property for some agricultural purposes and self-managed common forests for others.

Solutions imposed by external authority were not necessary -- and usually self-defeating: "Academics, aid donors, international nongovernmental organizations, central governments, and local citizens need to learn and relearn that no government can develop the full array of knowledge, institutions and social capital needed to govern development efficiently and sustainably. ..."

How about that? Freedom works.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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pb
The first interstate highway was entirely private and stretched from Indianapolis to Miami. Adjusted for inflation, it was built for 1/4 the cost and cost 1/8 to maintain. The road still exists today and, apart from being poorly maintained by government, it's also one of the safest in the world.

Governments even mess up the highways. No, we don't need to pay taxes for roads.

self-control is bedrock
Self-governance has its roots in self-control. Nothing provides self-control like the reverent fear of God.
Government(the Federal Gov't)is in love with control. It's not hard to see how they have become jealous of that reverence given to the Almighty but withheld from them.
But God Almighty is able to control people from within them while government agencies and programs can't. Consequently, they create a myriad of 'laws' to try and do from without what only God can do from within. It's really no more complicated than that.. .
The diminishing of the Judeo-Christian value system in our population(and therefore in culture and society) has left a vacuum in peoples' lives that the State notices with relish and is therefore attempting to fill.

To the *ModMarks of the World*
Let me just say this relative to "Military Pensions" In the first place, I think I'm correct in saying that a Higher Court (somewhere?) has determined that Military Retirement is "Deferred Compensation" rather than a "Pension"..

Secondly, and more importantly, If you wanted/covet such a *Pension* You should have done exactly what Gunny and I did.. GO FOR IT!! In Fact the Bloviator from Pa did also,, CHEERS' PS May I say that PENSION did not come cheap..Sleep well tonight!!

afriKa
"I'd Like Stossel To Tell Us...
... what all these small producers are supposed to do when Big Agribusiness buys up a huge swath of land down the road and hires lawyers to defend its right to do whatever it takes to increase "shareholder value". Large corporations will never, ever abide by these rules, because subtle social sanctions simply don't cow them."

This is the inherent problem with big government and what the authors of our Constitution and founders of our republic tried to guard against.

Common law, which evolved over many centuries, would allow the small landholder equal rights with the big corporation. To the contrary, government, by its very nature, would rather deal with one or two big entities than hundreds or thousands of small ones.

If we lived in a state of liberty, the big would have to fight against the many.

Spot on...
...as usual, Mr. Stossel.

Read The Obama Timeline, and learn how Obama plans to destroy the common sense world Stossel advocates.

As usual, I'm with John Stossel
Local decisions are always best handled by local people with a direct interest in the outcome.

Top down, overbearing governance always causes more problems than they seek to resolve.

Liberty Works

NGO/Aid donors - Bill Gates, npr
Interesting that just this morning Bill & Melinda Gates were being interviewed about this very issue on NPR. The wisdom of his generosity in Africa had been questioned by an African (how dare they!). The very point made here in Mr. Stossel's column was demonstrated by the dispute, in that the Gates' were deeply offended by the suggestion that they might not know what was best for these backward, deprived and less-successful-than-they rubes in asking that they be "taught to fish", rather than handed fish by their betters. In that case, why not allow them to use his gifts to create in-country mfg. of the goods needed to protect themselves from disease... rather than having the goods imported from wealthy donor nations. The Gates' claimed it was a matter of life-saving expedience, and that it was simply ignorance & arrogance to doubt them.
Huh?

Mod Mark
"FYI, after 17 years the cash value of my pension was around $30K. Oh boy, was i excited to see that number :-)"

Wow! Obviously not a great return! In fact, you may have done better off opening a savings account at the bank! :-)

Have a great evening!

Bruce
"I sympathize with you on your job issue. That scenario has played out for far too many people."

And I thank you..

I was following my footprints, be a long term employee and build up a pension. The company I worked for use a "years of service plus your age" method for determining your pension.

Literally people would be 1 week away from the next magic number and get downsized and lose 30% of their pension.

That system worked well in the good old days but it doesn't now.

My fault, should have gotten out much earlier in my career.

FYI, after 17 years the cash value of my pension was around $30K. Oh boy, was i excited to see that number :-)

Rarely, Phylo?
"Obviously you don't want a government official who has no knowledge of a situation governing it. But that's rarely the case."

Can you find just one person in your Lord and Savior's administration that has any clue about what they are doing?

*crickets chirping*

Mod Mark
I appreciate your points, but I would offer this. Fair or not, only about half of the people that enter the military actually end up in the career field that they want. Of course, as is the case with most organizations, this means that someone has to see to the administrative tasks to accomplish the mission. I guess that I view military service as time served, regardless of the actual job.

I sympathize with you on your job issue. That scenario has played out for far too many people.

As far as a pension plan, I own my own business and have basically put most of my earnings back into it. I do contribute to a Roth IRA, when I can spare a few dollars these days. I do invest in enough insurance so that if something unexpected happens to me where I can no longer run the business, all of the, although small, will be paid and if my wife or one of my children chooses to do so, can continue the business. Call me crazy, but it also provides my employees with a fairly nice pay out if the company is dissolved or sold. Since my wife has her own career, she has a 401k for herself (by design), in addition to the payout from the sale or closure of the business. Since my company is technology based, I have been very fortunate to be doing well since I opened my doors in 2001.

I sincerely hope that you find something that you like and is financially rewarding to you, very soon!

Reba
Right. Franklin was referring to each generation's responsibilty to safeguard the "blessings of liberty" too many people take for granted.

As far as our defeat of communism, my view is that we spend almost 50 years defeating the Soviet Union; let's not adopt their system.

Interestingly enough the Russian media has written extensively on the amusing irony of our accelerated move toward socialism under Obama. Hasn't gone unnoticed abroad even if people here still have their heads in the sand.

I Love My Pension
It's not nearly as much as a government pension, though. There are other differences. My employer put away money every month in stocks and investments not related to the health of the company. I made contributions, too. Now I get back the money we both put in. If I died tomorrow, my wife would get the balance. If I live longer than the actuarial figures say, I still get my pension because every pensioner gets slightly less than what he would if everyone met the tables in order to cover differences of that sort.

That's what a pension should be. I also have an IRA which I am still adding to because I don't need the extra money as I live modestly. Perhaps I will take an expensive vacation. Perhaps I will give it to my children.

I also have Social Security. What I get depends on the whim of the government. If I die tomorrow, my wife gets some coverage, but not lot. If we both died, the whole thing disappears. That's what the government has done for me-- a Ponzi scheme that gives me far less than if I had invested in my own retirement and disability insurance.

On the whole, I am happy that my prosperity in my declining years depends far more on the contributions of myself and my employer to my financial security than the mercies of the government.

AFCHIEF - FOUNDERS WOULD BE HORRIFIED

is so true. The Founders set up our Republic to be free of big government abuses and control.

I can't believe we are where we are today, moving toward a Socialist Nation. I worked as an advisor in the Czech Republc after they achieved their independence from Russia. I heard many horrifying stories of life under Communist control from the local residents. The citizens of the Czech Republic were so excited to be free of the domination and eager to put democracy and a free enterprise system in place once again in their country.

This experience encouraged me to admire our Founders even more with their wisdom and knowledge that our liberties can be fragile.

I hope we don't disappoint 'ole Ben Franklin when he told a colonist that the constitution had provided them a Republic, "if you can keep it". We have a large responsibilty ahead of us if we want to keep it.


tibby and the Big Apple!
"Do not think that Wall Street has to run its operation out of New York. The New York Stock Exchange and Wall Street are names synonymous with a geographical area. "

Trivia time. Do you know why our financial center is Wall Street in New York?

The Erie Canal. tons of money started to flow into New York City once the canal started business. From all this capital, the banks and the stock market was formed.

You seem to be critical of New York City but as a young single professional making lots of money, it is a fun place to be if you want a exciting night life. So much to do if you make the bucks to afford it.

So where does a 25 year old with a MBA go, Peoria Il or New York City? That would be a no brainier for me, NYC here I come!




Lazy citizens= big gov't.
It only works because people are lazy and irresponsible and only too happy to let government do it for them! Hey! It's free!!!

I'd Like Stossel To Tell Us...
... what all these small producers are supposed to do when Big Agribusiness buys up a huge swath of land down the road and hires lawyers to defend its right to do whatever it takes to increase "shareholder value". Large corporations will never, ever abide by these rules, because subtle social sanctions simply don't cow them.

afriKa

Bruce
"I think that your displeasure with military pensions is somewhat one sided and I would ask why you would single out the military, when their are more egregious examples?"

Fair enough. I like to pick on Gunny, he doesn't get bend out of shape when attacked. He will tell me to f**k off you little man and move on :-)

I despise all government pension, government workers should live by the same rules in the private sector. Do you have a pension, few do these days.

I do live in New York, a state employee paradise. Our budget woes and high taxes can be tied to far too many state worker who have far to generous benefits. A story broke awhile back about a police officer whose burden rate was over $200K/year with all these benefits.

Any pension or retirement benefit should not be based on these magic numbers such as 20 year service. They should be an accumulative benefit which grow for every year of service. It has a cash value which grows and you decide how long you wish to work for this employer and how you wish to receive it.

Military pension should work the same. I have no issue with granting a soldier additional benefits if they serve in combat, they are risking their lives and deserve compensation. But a 20 year military desk jockey getting a pension for 50 years, that is too generous.

And yep, I am bitter. I had 17 years of service but didn't have those magic number so my pension was worth $30K when my division was sold off. Four more years and it would worth close to $200K.

At least I honest....







To PB
" Wanna try for an interstate highway system? An international airport? A national parks system? A hydroelectric system? Government does some things very well. They're just taken for granted."

Bingo!

And add to that the entire legal edifice preventing wholesale spoiling of riverways, exploitation of powerless groups (remember child labor?), and 100 other things that small numbers of locals were powerless to do anything about.

afriKa

Reba
Unfortunately you are correct. We are a country founded on the priciple of individual liberty and self-government.

People who believe that the role and responsibility of government is to take care of people should do some research and discover just how suspicious 18th century Americans were of government.

They can start with the Federalist Papers; what they are and why they were written. They might want to brush off the Declaration of Independence, which clearly states in bold language that only reason for a government is to protect God-given individual rights, Not group rights, individual rights.

The states only agreed to form a union under the Constitution only after they were assured that the states would retain the power and authority to govern themselves and not live under an intrusive, all-powerful central authority. The implications were clear: Keep to your limited federal powers, and leave the states, or "the people," the hell alone.

Today the 9th and 10th Amendendments, so central to our federalist system, mean nothing anymore. Unfortunately too many people forgot, or maybe they never knew, that the states created the federal government, not the other way around.

I put the most of the blame on the states, who for decades have been steadily ceding their constitutional authority and powers to the federal government in exchange for federal dollars.

If the founders could come back and see what we have done to their brilliant plan they'd be horrified.

Mod Mark
I think that your displeasure with military pensions is somewhat one sided and I would ask why you would single out the military, when their are more egregious examples?

I have far less of an issue with retired US military personnel receiving a pension than I do a one term elected US official receiving their sweetheart deals!

The career military person puts their life on the line for far less pay, even when everything is factored in, than the private sector would pay them. Further, they don't make stupid laws to spend other people's money funding their pet projects, under the guise of "serving their constituents."

By contrast, an elected rep of our government, for just one term, gets a nice pension, as well as 100% paid health care for life. Further, they will make from high thousands to millions of additional money, on top of their salaries, just by their association. How many of them continue to work for the government as a consultant, lobbyists or in many cases, government contractors, while collecting that pension?

I would also add that labor unions are far worse! Having reviewed many union proposals and contracts over the past 12 years, I would offer that, in my opinion, union retirement programs are nothing more than legal Ponzi schemes. I have yet to do the math for one of their retirement programs that do not need a minimum of 2.5 people working to fund one retiree's pension. In addition, these union retirees can also work up to 28 hours per week and still collect it. Further, you should also be as appalled as I am over the earnings and perks that their executives receive! And they deride big business?! What a crock! It is painfully clear to me why they want card check so badly; so they can force more union membership to fund their folly!



IT'S AMAZING THAT
This country was settled by individuals who came to it's shores with no government guarantees. They did not expect anything but freedom to choose their own lives.

When families left St. Louis in covered wagons to go West there were no guarantees of safety or prosperity when they arrived in California or Oregon, only the opportunities.

When men came to Texas to fight for Indenpendence, there was no government to pay them for their services. Many were later paid in land by a newly developed Republic who was grateful to be independent of a tyrannical Mexican government.

Now, there are too many Americans who think they can not make it without government's help, and the same government has convinced them that this is true.
The spirit of Americans has eroded into a helpless mass. Thus, the spirit of creativity, entrepreneurship, and new discoveries will erode whenever big government determines they can do it better.








Mod Mark
As you put it, your state is broke. Others states face the same problem. In that circumstance those states hold their hand out to the Federal government begging for the money that the Federal government took away from the state in the first place. The money is returned but with strings attached. This enables the Federal government to have dominion over the states. It is about concentrated,centralized power by controlling the money.

There is a reason why Soros, Buffet, Trump, and Gates are influential. Money talks. If they didn't have money they would be ignored.

Few politicians believe in the ability of the people to solve their own problems. States charge what they will in taxes knowing that the Federal government will send them money. General Motors also thinks it is too big to fail.

Do not think that Wall Street has to run its operation out of New York. The New York Stock Exchange and Wall Street are names synonymous with a geographical area. The internet has created an opportunity for companies to be traded anywhere. Many companies no longer need to be in high tax areas.

The interesting thing is that a number of the states that are broke now are the same states that almost always go broke. New York will discover that the Federal Government limiting executive compensation will have a direct impact on their state tax revenues collected from those same executives. But that is OK New York will ask for help from the Federal government who will in turn try to sell their debt to the Chinese.

Sooner or later everyone pays the piper when they can no longer pass the buck. Wouldn't it be nice if future voters who have not been born yet pay for the costs we are imposing on them?

Where will the beggar go when the rich have been driven away?

Exceptionally Misleading
Stossel is far and away my favorite columnist here, one who -- unsurprisingly for a journalist -- sticks close to facts, and refreshingly far from polemicism. But he really, REALLY gets it wrong here.

EVERY example he offers features the same set-up: intertwined, ancient, intergenerational arrangements made among a few, small players WHO EXPECT DO CONTINUE CO-EXISTING. It's what economists call a "repeated game". It has essentially NO relevance to a faceless, corporatized, hyper-litigious society. Does Stossel *really* believe that, say, Exxon will play by these subtle, local rules? Please.

He ignores something else, too: these arrangements take huge quantities of time to build up, and they can vary wildly from place to place. In that way, they are anti-competitive: getting INTO the arrangement is nearly impossible.

I agree that government is often not the best way to manage resources. But these examples don't even begin to show that, outside a highly circumscribed domain of application.

afriKa

Daune
Congrats on informing those libs like lilly that being "paid back" is not being on the dole.

It amazes me that a ponzi scheme (ss) that allows a minority worker, say a janitor (or any other of the downtrodden victims libs mention) to work 40 years or so. finally retire and after cashing his first ss check has a heart attack and dies. His heirs get $255 to bury him and our benevolent government keeps all that $$ he contributed over the years. AND, if he's a conservative, he was freeloading.

You can't have it both ways lilly.

Melvin
That was great. We need a Ronald Reagan now. Someone who is feared, but respected. Someone who understands the role of government and the private sector and keeps them apart.

The Founders
established 4 departments within the administrative branch, treasury, defense (it was called war back then) State, and attorney general. We now have more secretaries than most people can count, and some bureacracies have more employees than constituents.

An agriculture department worker was surprised one morning when he found another worker at his desk weeping. When asked what was wrong, the crying man raised his head and sobbed "my farmer died". There are more employees of the department of agriculture than there are farms.

The growth of government has become second only to the corruption of politicians as the major cause of this countries problems.

Does size matter?
I believe strongly that what Mr. Stossel discusses here is very true - but I do have a question. Is there a point at which the co-op extends to so many people that it no longer works? It seems that the concept depends on self-interest, and in the ability to see forward (thus ensuring wise management of resources), but is there a point where too many people overwhelm the system?

And @ lilly and all others who insist on referring to SS and Medicare as welfare programs - they are not. Most of us have paid into those programs for years as "insurance" for basic funds for retirement and healthcare in our retirement. I would have preferred to have that money to invest myself - but some politician decided they could handle it better than I could. I, by the way, have managed a personal retirement fund very well, even during the recent economic problems, because I know it is my responsibility to take care of myself. That said - part of my retirement does rest on SS and Medicare, and I resent people like you who consider that to be a form of welfare and look down at me for expecting to get back a small portion of what was taken from me. So Lilly dear - shut up.

david golf
Your right, and the government is the enablers allowing some to never learn to stand on their own. The left doen't seem to understand that societies do much better when left to govern themselve to a certain point. That's how this country was built. Our founders were just men, who wanted to govern themselves and succeeded beyond anyones imagination that brought us to the envy of the world. It's those in power on the left that know that more social programs provided by the government with our money means more power over the people as a reliant service to those with no ambitions and not just for those in need. Those sheep are just sitting by getting their wool taken without realizing they are just being prepared for the main course.

Updated Ronald Reagan Speech
Check out this short, updated version of Ronald Reagan's classic speech, with modern comments spliced in at the appropriate spots: http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/10/1964-ronald-reagan-tim e-for-choosing.html

So true tibby
"The Federal Government can now legislate un-funded mandates whose cost is passed to the states without their consent. The states have no representation in Washington. "

And when President "whose name is no longer mentioned" cut Federal taxes back in 2001, he cut back on Medicaid funding but still mandated Medicaid services. These cost were pushed down to the state.

Of course my state is broke and these addition cost were passed down to the county level.

Of course my country is now broke and was forced to raise property taxes to cover the additional Medicaid cost.

End results for me, a large portion of Federal tax cut was used to pay my property tax.



Lilly 09:15
"Double Message"

"Does it strike anyone but me sort of odd that with articles like this one ("who needs bad old government---the good American is self-sufficient") townhall.com is once more (as it often is) headed by a big huge ad for a publication that advises people on how to defraud the US government out of more money? (Look back at the top of the page listing today's feature articles---heading is "The US Government Owes YOU Money".)"

This does not strike us as odd. Many who are looking for a free ride are gullible enough to fall for this. No Federal protection can protect people from their own stupidity. Free market principles means you can advertise to stupid as well as smart people.

As for VA benefits, those that served in our armed forces, at risk of being killed or maimed for life, are deserving of our thanks by caring for them. They have risked their lives to protect the freedom you enjoy and your right to criticize the military benefits they receive.

Phylo Se Fiser
Your dillusional as usual. As there are extremist on both sides of the fence, government does more to harm than any person or private group could possibly do. Before you go on a tantrum about private organizations, I'm talking about those that don't take tax payer money given by the government. I agree that regulations are needed in some cases, but government is out of control and if you are blind to that, youe hope is lost. You may not see it now, since you seem to have a blind crush on the libs in DC, but you and those like you are destroying this great nation. Stossel is a pro American, like most of us real thinkers, and not anti-government.

terms
This sort of organization to achieve a purpose is a form of governance. It is also true to the principle, "of the people, by the people, and for the people".

Self-organization is key to free societies, but for some, it's hard to rely on letting things sort themselves out.

Are you listening Gunny?
The dear Lilly writes: "Of course, we deserve everything we can get---many of us posting here on on Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment, and VA benefits---but, damn, we deserve it."

A true fiscal conservative would scare the cr*p out of the righties as they all cry out "I earn it" as you say.

A true fiscal conservative would eliminate all government pension and these sweet heart deals concerning health insurance.

The worst is the military. Put in 20 years of service and you get a pension for life and a $500/year health package. At age 38, you can start collecting a government pension. Are they unable to work anymore? In the private sector, you collect on you pension when you reach retirement age and 38 is not retirement age.

The worst here at TH is GunnyG. He still works for the Federal government and is collecting a pension from the Federal government. WTF is that, how can you collect a pension from an employer when you still work the same employer?

Opps, I forgot. Gunny earned it. He special...


Traffic Lights
Traffic lights are needed because people cannot do things for themselves. A broken traffic light can cause deaths,confusion, and chaos.-melpol

Well melpol, on the surface it would appear that you are correct, but after spending a little time in Afghanistan I can tell you that your wrong. I have driven all around Kabul and only seen one functioning traffic light, traffic six lanes wide on a three lane road, and maybe 3-4 accidents the whole year I was there.
As for extremists causing all the problems, I prefer the extreme that does not say it is alright to steal from me, and force me to provide for those who cannot or will not provide for themselves.

pb
Government does some things very well. They're just taken for granted?

Which politicians back pocket are you in?

It's private companies hired by the gov. to build those things you mention, but it's after they are built that the problems begin. That's when government takes over the care of them and you see one man digging a hole while 5 others stand aroung watching.

It's tax payers that are taken for granted, not the government.

Co-ops are government
Co-ops are a form of government. They just have a different name.

Obviously you don't want a government official who has no knowledge of a situation governing it. But that's rarely the case.

I worked in Alaska fishing for Salmon. Believe me, if there was no DNR there counting how many salmon were going up river to spawn, the fisherman would've fished out all of those rivers.

People who hold nee-jerk anti-government sentiments are just as dangerous as the people who think government can solve all of our problems.

The problems are always caused by the extremists on both sides of any issue.

Stossel is an anti-government extremist.

Using Toilet Paper
Traffic lights are needed because people cannot do things for themselves. A broken traffic light can cause deaths,confusion, and chaos. The only thing people can do for themselves is use the bathroom toilet paper. But that ends in senior years. It takes maturity to admit you need others to survive. Strengthening the nanny state is necessary to make life easier for a nation of helpless individuals.

Double Message
Does it strike anyone but me sort of odd that with articles like this one ("who needs bad old government---the good American is self-sufficient") townhall.com is once more (as it often is) headed by a big huge ad for a publication that advises people on how to defraud the US government out of more money? (Look back at the top of the page listing today's feature articles---heading is "The US Government Owes YOU Money".)

Taken all together, the message seems to be "Fiscal conservatives, unite and prepare for revolution! This country has been brought low by welfare cheats and the liberals who facilitate their free-loading lifestyle. We conservatives aka Good Americans don't take a penny from the government---we are independent and self-reliant. Of course, we deserve everything we can get---many of us posting here on on Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment, and VA benefits---but, damn, we deserve it. And we will extract every further penny we can get from the government because our wonderfulness demands infinite compensation."


DavidM:
You could not be more wrong. I believe every American has a patriotic duty to resist paying taxes. What I seek are allies in resistance.

It is indisputable that any dollar collected by the taxing "authorities" will be used to oppress your family, your friends, your neighbors, and yourself. It is those who are getting the benefit of that theft that perpetuate, and exacerbate the theft. Hence, the more taxpayers, the more votes against taxes!

government versus farmers
In our area along the Mississippi river, in the past years, the farmers took care of the levies and they rarely broke in a flood. After the flood of '93 the government took them over and in the flood of '07/'08 they broke and several towns that had never had much water during a flood, suddenly were completely under water. There were several fields that could not be farmed for a year because of the water. It set for months in the fields. The farmers took good care of what they knew would adversly affect them. The government did not care as it did not hurt them.

Insighting Truth
Your love of state is showing.

NOT taking taxes from someone isn't "getting a free ride". No more than someone NOT robbing you isn't "you mooching off the robber".

Government isnt Entitled to our money, it should get only specific amounts from specific entities for proper functions of governance.

Get rid of the Cow Fart studies, museums dedicated to robert Byrd, and the Alphabet soup of agencies which serve no purpose and we will talk.

Government "Works"
When I see the lemmings line up in Detroit for "Obama Money," I see the result of 45 years of slavery. The Democrat Party and their minions have destroyed generations of inner city dwellers, mainly Black and Hispanic, in creating a Tara bigger than anything Margaret Mitchell could have imagined. Living lives of subsistence, just enough to remain poor and needy, this outrage has created the perfect citizen in the eyes of the Statists. Line up for food, line up for clothing, line up for rice cookers. We have little Cubas all over this country, in cities run, in the main, run by Democrats/Progressives/Marxists/Statists. You keep hoping the citizens will catch on, but they never do. The benefit of an abysmal "education" system.

Sparcboy of 8:28
Barry the Empty sure does talk pretty, doesn't he. Whoever writes his stuff is a creative genius at stringing together positively loaded words. Since comprehension is hardly a strong point of the American voter, and emotion and feelings rule a majority, Barry has been extraordinarily successful. Hasn't been anything like it since the Goebbels/Hitler duo. I do hope Americans figure things out short of the School of Hard Knocks lessons it took for the Germans.

Nat:
Churches get a free ride all over the country. People like me are forced to pay their share of the tax burden. Why not level that playing field before extolling the independence of your flock.

Quality people and freedom of associatio
association, that is. Where people are left alone in small groups, quality will take over. Thieves and other non-contributors will be few and when occuring, will be returned back towards quality by group pressures. But in large populations, like a big city, the losers clan together, reinforce one another and create a culture of losers which reinforces losing. These are the folks who need outside laws, and governmental force to improve quality of life. Up to a couple decades ago, the overall American culture supplied carrot/whip motivation to break folks out of loser values. LBJ and his Great Society reversed the process and tipped the balance towards an increasing percentage of losers. They may have taken over. We'll see.

pb
Let's just do it the way the President Obama says works best:

"America's free market has been the engine of America's great progress. ... And I believe that our role as lawmakers is not to disparage wealth, but to expand its reach; not to stifle the market, but to strengthen its ability to unleash the creativity and innovation that still makes this nation the envy of the world." Pres. Obama, Mar. 2009

"If government does its modest part, there is no stopping the most powerful and generative economic force the world has ever known: the American people." Barak Obama Sept. 21, 2009

(And no, I don't think Obama believes what the teleprompter said, otherwise, he wouldn't allow congress to be meddling in health insurance.)

Pb
Government does very few things well. What you should have said is that government under the Federal Constitution was granted limited and enumerated powers and those powers were that were not specifically given to the Federal government were reserved for the states. This was clarified in the tenth amendment. Furthermore there was a system of checks and balances there were devised by our Founding Fathers to limit government.

When the 17th amendment was ratified one of those checks and balances was removed. The states no longer had a say in the Federal government. The interest of the individual states could not be balanced against the people.

Why is this important? The Federal Government can now legislate un-funded mandates whose cost is passed to the states without their consent. The states have no representation in Washington. If the Senators had been chosen by the state legislatures as originally written in the Constitution there would be a check on Federal unfunded mandates to the states.

When recent Federal stimulus money was refused by some states due to “strings attached” that would require states to change their laws and accept the increased costs that would result, pressure was brought to bear. The states were told in no uncertain terms they were required to accept the terms. They had no choice.

Why is this relevant? We are now being told by Harry Reed that there would be an opt-out clause for the states in the proposed health care legislation. Past behavior by the Federal government has demonstrated that this will not be the case.

More succinctly, you are being lied to.

THE FEAR FACTOR IN SELF GOVERNANCE
http:/Just last week, Mr Bushmills posted an essay on Townhall at his Least Men Standing site, part of a series he's been doing on the elements of liberty under the Constitution.

You can find it at:http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/2009/10/20/vote-stealing_and_the_fear_factor_in_public_governance.thtml

Oh, I work for Mr BUshmills.
St George Frederick

Commons Management in Every Town
Another example of the common property being managed without Govzilla can be seen in our backyard--standalone churches.

My Missouri Synod church has 3 pastors, but building maintenance, cash management, and numerous other church operations are done freely by members. Rules are few, because the members are bonded by common religious fervor.

People have plenty of opportunity to "free-ride", but they choose to produce more than consume.


"Except for the money"????
He who pays the piper calls the tune.If you don't want the government telling you how to do things,STOP TAKING THEIR MONEY!It is not theirs,it is mine, that they took from me in the form of taxes.If I have to pay taxes,then I want a say on how it will be spent.

I love John
I was he'd run for office. That is a conservative of the truth:

http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/10/am-i-c-rich-a-conservat ive/



Self-governance....pb comment and yours
Our founders gave us a perfectly thought out program called the Constitution. They put in safeguards to protect individual liberty and propriety. There were certain rights that accrued to the Federal Government and others were delegated to the states. Within the states individually were assigned similar delegations. Of all the rights granted, the most important were the rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights amendment. Technology has presented new issues such as those described by pb (he does not include global threats Nuclear, Terrorism, international trade, Military Defense etc). What is most important is that the Federal and State Government no longer operates within the boundaries that have provided us individually with the freedoms origianlly proposed. The Federal goverment is improperly engaged in activities that trample free speech and personal freedom. It has extended its reach to interference with the family and the sacred right of each family to worship and live in the community of its own choosing. The communities themselves have been subsumed into the Federal governance throgh fundings of local education, police and community programs in return for which the receiving organizations, communities and families are presumed to have given up their basic rights. This perversion must be reversed otherwise the history of the past 230 years will have been for naught. Geoff

Self-governance works...
... sometimes, in some places. Wanna try for an interstate highway system? An international airport? A national parks system? A hydroelectric system?

Government does some things very well. They're just taken for granted.

A Very Interesting Comparison.
There is another article on today's Townhall that should be read by anyone reading this one. It contains excerpts from former Marine Captain Mathew Hoh's resignation letter to the State Department.

In the letter, we are told of Hoh's experiences as a fighter in Iraq and his further experiences as a State Department offical in Afghanistan, and his reasons for resigning. To wit, "I have lost understanding and confidence in the strategic purposes of U. S. presence in Afghanistan."

Hoh goes on to explain what he found in Afghanistan, that each local valley, hundreds of them, has no ideological connection with even the folks in the next valley, only 2 kilometers away. Each will take money from any side, to fight and expel any foreigner trying to tell them how to run their lives.

He calls it, "Valley-ism" -- virtually all the insurgents are localized, desiring to run things in their own valley, without outside intervention of any type -- except for the money.

It seems to say everything Stossel's subject is saying.

I have paraphrased, for brevity, what Hoh's resignation letter actually said. Everyone should read it, get the facts straight.

I find it of further interest that Hoh's letter is not prominently featured on Townhall, but you can find it under "News." It is featured on Drudge.

But what would happen
to all the politicians if they didn't have other people's resources to order about?

:)
Fiscal conservatives unite! The world dose not need social engineering/managing from the left or the right.
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