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Wednesday, April 22, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Prohibition Spawns Drug Violence
by John Stossel
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Visiting Mexico last week, President Obama said he will fight drug violence: "I will not pretend that this is Mexico's responsibility alone. The demand for these drugs inside the United States is keeping these cartels in business".

I don't expect politicians to be sticklers for logic, but this is ridiculous. Americans also have a hefty demand for Mexican beer, but there are no "Mexican beer cartels." When Obama visits France, he doesn't consult with politicians about "wine violence." What's happening on the Mexican border is prohibition-caused violence.

A legal product is produced and traded openly, and is therefore subject to competition and civilizing custom. If two beer distributors have a disagreement or if a liquor retailer fails to pay his wholesaler, the wronged parties can go to court. There's no need to take matters violently into their own hands. As a result, in legal industries the ability to commit mayhem is not a valued skill.

On the other hand, dealers in a prohibited product operate in the black market. Upstanding businesspeople stay away, relinquishing the trade to those without moral scruples. Black-market operators can't resolve disputes in court, so being good at using force provides a competitive advantage.

Politicians gave us prohibition and created the conditions in which violence pays. This doesn't excuse those who commit it, but the fact remains that a legal drug market would be as peaceful as the beer, wine and whiskey markets. When alcohol prohibition, which spawned large-scale organized crime, ended in 1933, there was a brief upsurge in drinking, but America became a more peaceful and less corrupt place.

We should learn from that, but we haven't. American politicians are largely responsible for the atrocities now taking place.

That's not what they want to hear, of course, so they blame others. Their "solution" to increasing violence is to crack down even more on production and distribution of some drugs. This has never worked before, and it won't work now. Black-market profits are abnormally high because of the risk premiums and limited competition, so plenty of people will want to enter the business. Wipe out one cartel, and another is waiting to take its place. The high profit margins leave plenty of cash to bribe judges, cops and border guards. Even in America.

When American politicians scapegoat drug consumers, they bring the court system to a standstill and clog prisons with nonviolent offenders who are stigmatized for life. Minorities bear the brunt of any crackdown.

When will we learn that prohibition doesn't banish a popular product? It merely turns the trade over to thugs. The result is worse for society than if drugs were legal. After decades of the "war on drugs," anyone can still buy most any drug he wishes. Authorities can't even keep drugs out of prisons.

Another aspect of this issue has been overlooked, especially by conservative supporters of the drug war: President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton have promised the Mexican government they will stop the southern flow of American guns said to be used by the drug cartels. A war on drugs inevitably becomes a war on guns. Yet conservative Second Amendment advocates refuse to see the connection.

Obama's drug warriors are happy to link the issues. The president says, "More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border, and that's why we're ramping up the number of law enforcement personnel on our border".

That 90 percent figure has been repeated many times, but FactCheck.org says it's bogus:

"The figure represents only the percentage of crime guns that have been submitted by Mexican officials and traced by U.S. officials. ... U.S. and Mexican officials both say that Mexico recovers more guns than it submits for tracing ... ".

And FactCheck says Mexico only submits those it already has reason to believe came from the United States.

Once again the politicians show contempt for the truth as well as for freedom.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Again the author is right.
I only wish that those people who say we should "legalize and tax drugs" would wake up to true liberty. (This is a great liberty issue.) What they ought to be saying is, decriminalize drugs and government keep your mitts out of it. First, what you put in your body is your biz---no victim, no crime. Second, how could gubmint regulate something you could grow in your backyard without infringing on more of your rights? Third, anyone consenting to ANY new tax scheme in order to get gubmint's blessing for their favorite cause, whatever it may be, is selling out. They are enemies of liberty. I do not need permission from gubmint to live my life and I'm sure as heck not going to negotiate with it to do so!

drug prohibition with teaching knowledge
prohibition created violence in the past when there was no Self and Socieal Knowledge I have pioneered in my Psychology of Health & Excellence in 1994 where Mind-Body-Spirit Poewr Balance and health becomes significant in lasting Spiritual Euccess of creating one's own destiny and becoming ageless and timeless and all that the dying earth is now interested in to create a REBIRTH. On the other hand legalizing drugs at a time our reality & media is stolen by the mafia propaganda of using our children and youth body and mind as pawns of power would be the end of a civilization as it has been in Iran; drug pushing in Iran has destroyed the young population that is 30 milllion and half of the general population.

DRUG LEGALIZATION: LEGAL MURDER OF MINDS
JOHN STOSSEL IN TWITTER & TOWNHALL.COM ROSE SELF KNOWLEDGE

Body: prohibition created violence in the past when there was no Self and Socieal Knowledge I have pioneered in my Psychology of Health & Excellence in 1994 where Mind-Body-Spirit Poewr Balance and health becomes significant in lasting Spiritual Euccess of creating one's own destiny and becoming ageless and timeless and all that the dying earth is now interested in to create a REBIRTH.
On the other hand legalizing drugs at a time our reality & media is stolen by the mafia propaganda of using our children and youth body and mind as pawns of power would be the end of a civilization as it has been in Iran; drug pushing in Iran has destroyed the young population that is 30 milllion and half of the general population



Dylan is rolling in his grave . . .
a joint that is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUogzf1h2UY

Decriminalize marijuana now!

And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yieldeth seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit, having seed each one according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Keep it green sisters and brothers!

pax vobiscum

Rose . . .
You have to get off the pipe and quit living those 50 year old Reefer Madness myths.

Quit oppressing your fellow human beings from freely partaking of our Lord's gracious bounty!

Any government or fellow human being that calls evil, and outlaws with their laws, that which YHWH Himself declares good, is, well, evil.

Tobacco (as "spiffed up" by the tobacco companies): thoroughly evil! Alcohol (not only sour but rotted grapes and sugarified poison): evil!

Marijuana: pick a bud off a plant and enjoy: a gift from God!

Peace

I am blocked and censored by drug dealer
I guess the drug mafia does not want me to send any comments to masses about this! I am disabled in twitter by the same beast who has been censoring me for over 12 years who came to promote me! The beast is a drug dealer too!

NO good
Living in South Africa with the worst methamphetamine problem in the world, and a nearly non-existent policing of drugs I would say ...
- in the case of drugs, relaxing prohibition will NOT reduce violence. It spreads in gangs rather than drug dealers, and most still have to steal to feed their habit.
- youth access to drugs goes up dramatically impacting on violence in schools and against women
- even ask the Netherlands who have dope "coffee" shops, they are having to rethink their free laws because drug abuse is rising.
- robberies turn VERY violent because a dopped up robber can't think straight.
- that almost half of the men under 25 in the Cape Town shack settlements are now unemployable, because their brains are fried
- I could go on about rape, pregnancy, school dropouts, families collapsing ... all of which gets worse with a greater access to drugs.

I would rather have the violence associated with policing drugs than the unbelievable litany of problems associated with freely accessible drugs.

Before you folks think you are so clever with these great ideas why not do some homework in countries with "freer" access to drugs. You will be shocked.

Keep fighting!!

Thanks, Brencis!!!
You took the words right out of my KEYBOARD!! If you think things are bad with ILLEGAL drugs, just wait till they LEGALIZE them.
The experts thought that legalizing and taxing prostitution in NV would "solve problems associated with illegal prostitution". Now, they have LOTS of prostitutes,MANY more than before, and a growing AIDS epidemic, which (surprise,surprise)has been spread by AIDS-infected,legal prostitutes,DESPITE the required STD testing they all undergo every week or 2, and the medical treatment when they test positive.
Things are SO BAD in downtown Las Vegas that Mormon missionaries are FORBIDDEN TO GO THERE. If they DO go, they are sent home in disgrace.
So much for "legalizing and regulating" vice!

Legal Drugs
When I was 17 drinking a beer was exciting and also against the law, when I was 21, drinking a beer wasn't much fun. Half the attraction to drugs is the excitement of not getting caught. Once legal, the thrill is gone and so is the demand. Common Sense !

Oh please
If any of you worriers really want to know what a free society looks like when marijuana and hash is legal, go visit Amsterdam. The streets there are safer in the dead of night than New York City in broad daylight.

And with marijuana and hash legal, the cops have more time and resources to rid society of the really bad stuff like cocaine, methamphetamine, crack, and heroin. That's what Amsterdam did. I know because I actually went there and saw it for myself.

Besides, in an economy that purportedly needs jobs, why are we overlooking what could be a nice industry? If only our leaders had some common sense, and if only our frightened, cowed little citizens against marijuana understood individual freedom. No one's going to force you to smoke a joint, you know.

Brencis & Cynthia:
I suspect there are compromising circumstances in both the South African and NV cases, as there are in the Netherlands.

Government regulation of trade is not the answer. If regulation is too onerous it become de facto prohibition and generates the same undesirable rusults.

Right or Left...
The Fascists all have this in common.

And then they want to complain when someone violates their perception of freedom.

It's no wonder 100 years of tyranny has gone unnoticed by most of you.

Dolts!

Happy Now?

Hemp is a very useful product!
Those who think "green" ought to love it. I recently read an article about the history of the prohibition of same. It states that many in early America grew it, including Geo. Washington. The fiber is strong (ropes for ships), it makes plenty of great paper pulp, grows faster than trees (like bamboo)and is readily renewable, is a perfect fiber for clothing, and has many other uses. The article stated that the source of prohibition came from petroleum companies who objected to competition from hemp oil that was an efficient fuel. Don't know where the site is but I am certain you could google "history of hemp" and get some info there.

P.S. Is "Rose" a ringer? Does anyone have a clue what she is saying?

drug war
A war that was lost before the ink was even dry on the paper.
Cynthia dear child, you need to get your facts straight. Those prostitutes you speak of are NOT the legal kind, they are street walkers and drug addict's. NV law says that the only prostitution that is allowed is in brothels, not on the streets...sorry to bust your bubble.
The whole fact here is that as long as drugs are a crime there will be violence..even in countries where drugs carry a death penalty they still get & do them..this so called war is a waste of money, man power,
If we were to legalise them and put a nominal tax, we could then use that money to put in place workable programs to help the most addicted to get off when they choose to stop, empty out a lot of prisons of non violent offenders, which would ease the tax burden on the people.. in short it would be a win-win for the people the only one to loose big time would be the cartels and the DEA etc. who gets hundreds of millions of dollars to fight this war..and have lost

HEY! Was that a racial slur?
Stossel said:
"Minorities bear the brunt of any crackdown." I think there's a subliminal message there by referring to minorities and "crack" in the same sentence. You whities ....

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Stossel Wrong
In principle his argument sounds well-reasoned, and I respect him, but the drugs out there are far more dangerous and debilitating than wine (c'mon John! A 1982 Chateau Ausone is not like a line of coke) or beer or cigarettes. Consumption of substances like heroin, methamphetamine, cocaine, etc... produce dangerously hallucinatory individuals which necessitate more police, more courts, more jails. Someone please produce evidence that consumption of any of the now-prohibited drugs has the beneficial effects that drinking a glass of wine a day has. That is not to mention wine and beer consumption have centuries-long traditions in most of the globe, (for Catholics, wine becomes the blood of Christ and has for more than 2000 years) unlike powdered cocaine, heroin and meth which are new, laboratory-created for maximum strength and far more addictive than wine or beer.

None of his column addresses the treatment of persons addicted to newly legalized drugs which, given our march towards nationalized healthcare, would cost billions.

However, and I know I'll get lambasted for this argument - consumption of these substances is immoral. And, yes, law is a function of morality. If not, why the prohibitions against murder, rape or robbery? Wouldn't it be cheaper and more economically efficient to eliminate penalties or trials for these activities? Let's just legalize them and regulate them. Sound absurd? Sure it does, just like legalizing drugs won't produce the desired effect of lowering the crime rates.

Legalization of Drugs?
I tend to agree with the premise that what one puts into their bodies is their own business. The problem is that we have become a welfare state, and if people lose their jobs because of their abuse of drugs, the rest of us will be required to support them.

So in addition to the decriminalization of drugs, you would have to enact harsh laws stating that if you want government aid you have to prove you are not using any of these substances, even though they may be legal. Anyone see any problems here?

This would also mean a need for cracking down on driving under the influence of the drugs as well, meaning that the police would have to be equipped with blood and urine testing kits rather than just a standard breathalyzer. It's a lot more complicated than 'legalize drugs and the violence will go away.'

Merrycolin, Hemp is NOT Marijuana
Hemp is a fiber from a plant which can be manipulated to eliminate the production of tHc. Test agricultural hemp growing projects exist in the U.S. I think it's important to distinguish between the two types of plants.

Stossel
John would make better use of his reputation explaning our addiction to the drug alcohol. Of the 40,000 highway deaths last year half were alcohol related. More drugies is not the answer.

Alecto
The practical implications of legalizing, decriminalzing, accepting or prohibiting various drugs in various ways are all debatable. This is because we do not know what will happen in teh future if we do X.

But, we do know what has happened in the past. We know that making alcohol illegal created a vast criminal network. We do know that the money profit created by the prohibition on drugs has fueled alarming levels of violence, vast costs for the Criminal Justice system, funded terrorism across the globe, and led to the destabilization of democratic governments.

On the moral level, you have really lost your way. Drug A causes between 400,000 and $500,000 deaths a year. It costs tens of billion sof dollars in lost productivity. Drug A is a significant factor in violence, especially against spouses and children.

Drug B has never been know to cause a death and actually decreases the propensity for violence.

But using drug B will get you sent to jail and saddled with a lifelong criminal record. WHile drug A is advertised and sold in every corner of the country. If you think that is a moral scenario then you clearly have no concept of what "moral" means.






Drugs should be decrimialized
John Stossell: Finally a man with enough common sense to know that no one can legislate morality.

If we would legalize certain drugs, such as marijuana and cocaine, the crime rate would decline overnight to half of what it is today. I certainly think we should completely outlaw meth, yet not punish the user but make it a mandatiory 25 years for producing it. If one is a heroin addict, let them have a prescription for it which they could refill monthly , at minimal cost or none, and instead of them robbing or prostituting themselves, they might get a job as their most pressing desire would be fulfilled.

The profits of selling marijuana and cocaine could then be used to help those who use it and to educate the problems associated with there use. Of course the only ones against this are the moralists that think they know what is best for everyone, and all law enforcement and connected departments as this might eliminate their jobs.

Alecto, STOSSEL IS RIGHT
On what do you base your statement that "consumption of these substances is immoral?"

I agree with Stossel completely. Another element of this issue that he did not address completely is that whenever government cracks down on some "illegal substance" it is those people who obey the law that are penalized. As with guns, gun restrictions ultimately penalize legal gun ownership.

I take a prescription pain medication for a chronic condition which makes it nearly impossible for me to function without this medication. Yet, when I go to the doctor for a refill, I am treated like a criminal. My doctor actually made me sign a statement swearing that I would not try to obtain this drug from any other source. Doctors are scared to death to prescribe a perfectly legitimate pain medication because of the federal governments intrusion into an area where they have no business.

Your statement that wine is an age old tradition and drugs are not is also false. The Chinese have used opium for centuries for both medicinal and recreational uses. Drugs have been around as long as wine and have wide spread tradition and use. It just doesn’t get the publicity associated with a legal substance because people don’t want to admit to something that might get them arrested.

As for your assertion that drugs are more lethal than wine, if drugs were legal, this would not be the case. The recreational drugs would be subject to the same standards and oversights as any other legal substance. There would be acceptable levels of the drug, and dangerous unknown chemicals often used to “cut” or extend the drug would be eliminated. People would even be more likely to get help for addiction if they knew they could admit their problem without fear of prosecution.

Today, many, many people who want to get help are afraid to let anyone, even their family, know that they have an addiction for fear of reprisals.

Great Idea
Let California test the theory first. They seem to want to legalize everything except your breath (CO2). If it is legal there, all the drug addicts will leave all the other states.

general thought
How come nobody ever recognizes the 800 lb gorilla in the room that most of the money spent on drugs come from welfare recipeints? Drugs should be de-criminalized and welfare recipients should be drug tested and those who fail should not receive any more taxpayer cash.

Alecto
I really want an answer to my question "On what do you base your statement that ""consumption of these substances is immoral?""

What authority are you using here, or do you just expect us to believe that YOU are an authority on what is or is not moral?

And the cupie doll goes to ....
MIKE FROM PA! Amen, brother!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Mike
"...most of the money spent on drugs come [sic] from welfare recipeints [sic]?"

What is your source for this claim?

I'm not disputing the truthfulness of your statement (I don't know one way or the other) but you are making a very broad generalization here and stigmatizing a lot of people. You should cite your source.

bud, that means that alcohol is a
non-factor as the same number of fatalities occur without alcohol.

Stossel is correct!

Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!
Prohibition never works!

Repeat until you get it!

Logical Syllogism
Anyone who posts here should first try to construct a logical syllogism supporting his post. Stossel does. In addition to logic, he uses common sense.

The biggest lobbyists against decrminializing drugs are the beneficiaries of the current drug war funding (follow the DEA money) and those industries who fear competition (tobacco, beer, liquor). Opponents, see if you can construct a logical syllogism around this -- and have a little common sense.


Ms. Kelly
1. You completely ignore my argument that wine and beer have long-established consumption traditions, even offering an example of wine being used in a religious ceremony, yet you demand that I answer you about my basis for morality?

2. OK, since you've asked for it, in this country, morality which is the basis of all law, flows from judeo-christian beliefs and traditions. Whether you like or not, or agree or not, no moral leader is going to agree with you that consumption of a drug like heroin, cocaine, or any substance which alters one's state of consciousness to the degree that one isn't cognizant of right or wrong or to the point that one is incapable of controlling one's actions is a desirable or good thing or ought to be encouraged. Legalization and decriminalization are forms of encouragement.

3. Why are you confusing prescription drug consumption with substances like heroin? Clearly, the drugs you are taking were developed specifically to cure/treat illnesses and are controlled substances with specific benefits which are distinguishable from substances like heroin, cocaine, or meth which are laboratory-created and enhanced for one purpose only: to significantly alter one's perception of reality and do significant damage to one's mind/body. I don't believe the comparison is legitmate.

4. I can't be sure of your reference for asserting that people are afraid to come forward for help with addiction, but I can write that I have personal experience with addicts and am not aware of anyone who has come forward for help with addiction being prosecuted. Of course, the request for help in those cases is antecedent to being caught and prosecuted. In fact, I can't imagine on what basis someone would be prosecuted in a case where someone addicted to drugs simply walked into a treatment center and asked for help? Maybe you could expound on that so I could respond?


Drugs Spawn Drug Violence
EOM

Malum Prohibitum Malum Habenae Regum est
"Evil by Prohibition" is the Evil of Government Rule...

Prohibiting a "thing" is the act of a deranged worldview that believes that inanimate objects have active power.

We may rationally prohibit an action (driving while intoxicated) but it is an irrationality to suggest that we can prohibit the exstence or simple possession of a thing that any person can make or grow.

http://tinyurl.com/d8ykxp

Wine with My Doobie
Alecto, I agree with you about wine. I like Petite Sirah with my doobie -- Pinot Noir doesn't stand up to the powerful taste and aroma.

Mike
I will go further than Ms Kelly. I do dispute your claim. Drug use in America is far mroe ubiquitous than welfare.

DO you have any data or is this just what passes for common knowledge in your circles?

Pat,
OK, I'll take the bait, if you're smoking a doobie with your Pinot or your Petit Syrah, you've never actually tasted either one, really.

Personally, I'm sure someone will come up with an entire pairing menu (if they haven't already) for various and sundry drugs:

1. Cabernet or Bordeaux with Afghani poppy juice.

2. Malbec with Columbian cocaine.

3. CA Chardonnay with CA Cannabis.

4. Chablis (or other minerally chardonnay) with methamphetamines.

5. Sauvignon Blanc with magic mushrooms.


Alecto
AS I intimated, you really have no clue as to the underlying nature of morality or of its sources.

Modern law is an amalgamation of all law that has gone before, including pre-Jewish codes and the laws of Greece and Rome, as well as Judeo Christian influences. If you think it' all Judeo Christian, then you read too much conservative propaganda. It's worth considering that, of the famous ten commandments, only two are the basis for American laws, while two more are specifically prohibited from being made into law.

In addition, you are woefully ignorant of History. For example, you suggest that wine has a long tradition, which makes is somehow a more moral drug. But are ignorant of the fact that poppy products, coca products, hemp products, and various naturally occurring hallucinogens also have long cultural and medicinal histories.

You have much to learn, grasshopper

John... please avoid the trap...
No Thing (drug, tool, whatever) can be in any respect "moral". It simply exists. To accept the premise that there can be any "morality" to the existence of a thing falls into both an illogical and irrelevant frame of reference established for the sole purpose of subjecting someone else to an arbitrary cultural rule set.

After reading the comments
I see that it all comes back to "public" costs of drugs. Hey there is a simple answer to that folks--NO PUBLIC HANDOUTS! Do you want to see less impact of illegal immigration? Do away with all the health and welfare programs for everyone; they are all unconstitutional anyhow! Do you want to see people take responsibility for their own health? Cut the health and welfare programs. Any way you slice it ladies and gents, as long as you feel responsible for these misfits you will bear the burden of THEIR consequences. You might notice that I didn't say "we" feel responsible because I don't. I know, I know---I'm just a heartless one.

Keep it
Marijuana and meth have what in common? Let's see:

A seed drops on the ground and is watered once in a while, and grows, in contrast to an assortment of toxic substances mixed together in some trailer that poses an immediate threat to neighbors - there is a comparison here somehow - ? NOT!

Someone has been whizzed out on meth for several days and gets so "high" they start picking bugs off their body (that are not there) is somehow equal to somebody taking a bonghit, and, omigosh, look out, they are reaching for the Oreos and milk . . .

But I hear you! Let's outlaw fat people too! Not that marijuana makes you fat; Michael Phelps doesn't look like he has all that much body fat. Actually some of the most talented NBA players in the game's history have been busted for having, and using, pot.

Marijuana has been shown to battle the genes that cause Alzheimer’s (Reagan should have kept it green), it destroys cancer cells, it alleviates anxiety, and these are but a couple examples, there are many more.

And who says to smoke and drive? Do people want people drinking wine and driving?

Green

Marijuana is associated with violence b/c it is illegal, decriminalize it, and the only violence we will have left in this society is from crazies, the military, Hollywood, and drunks . . .

And of course people using that evil toxic substance meth!

The Levites used calamus, a naturally occurring plant somewhat like marijuana, which is also on the U.S. government’s list of “schedule I” drugs, during Temple prayer and thanksgiving. If the United States government still exists when the Temple is rebuilt, is the evil American government then going to persecute the Jewish priests for doing that which the Lord Himself ordains? Figures the American government calls evil that which the Lord declares is good: you are on the wrong side of history people: persecuting Jewish priests for using a plant YHWH orders them to use! Not Good!

But then again persecuting people for using a green herb the Lord declares good is not good either . . .

Reminds me of how the U.S. military destroys Afghani poppy fields as we sell poppy seeds at every local garden store. Now that is funny!

Peace

Even when he is right he is a simpleton
Stossel is right that the violence associated with drugs is largely a result of laws making drugs illegal. Obama is right that it is American demand for drugs that fuels the problem. After all an illegal, but unpopular product would not enable the growth of the drug cartels in Mexico.

Why Stossel has chosen to frame a reasonable point around a nonsense criticism is not clear. Obama is pointing to the role that the US plays in the Mexican cartel problem. Stossel is accusing him of doing the opposite.

I would rather see Obama go further in decriminalizing drugs for the reasons that Stossel mentions. But Obama does a service in addressing the role US demand plays in the international drug problem. Stossel's criticism of him here misses the point. Silly when a legitimate criticism of Obama's actual policy would be possible.

DRUGS HURT PEOPLE!
Legalizing drugs will do NOTHING to stop the moral and physical destruction of the people and families involved and society as a whole.

If you had ever lived in a family where drugs (and yes alcohol) were used regularly you would know about the sexual abuse, mental illness, ruined health and fiancial and emotional destruction.

GET REAL it isn't going to get better if it is legal! DRUGS HURT PEOPLE!

I Hate Drugs
... they make you stupid, they waste time, they are bad for your health. And this is only tobacco and alcohol. Some of the other drugs are worse. Also, I must confess to liking a glass of wine now and again, and a good cigar every week or so. If consumption of the illegal drugs were kept at that level, they wouldn't be a problem. However, they are not. Nor are tobacco and alcohol use. This stuff is bad for you, folks, and you know it.
Having said that, it is possible that legalizing some drugs may reduce the crime and violence in our society. I can see the results in my own community, which is on the border. They grabbed a pickup full of marijuana in front of my house last week. It would be interesting to legalize some drugs and see if it created a better situation or a worse one. It would be impossible to get the genie back into the bottle if you were wrong, though.

Alecto
1. I did not ignore your argument about traditions with regard to wine and beer. I said that Opium use was part of the tradition in China for centuries. Confucianism uses opium, cannabis is used in India by the Hindus, and O Centre Espirita Beneficiente Uniao do Vegetal, a religious group out of Brazil, uses Hoasca, a hallucinogenic tea. When they filed suite in the U.S. to legally use this substance in their religious services, the National Association of Evangelicals and the Christian Legal Society filed an amicus breif in SUPPORT of O Centre Espirita’s right to continue this practice.

2. Not all illegal drugs lead to loss of control or the inability to distinguish right and wrong. As with alcohol, there are varying degrees of intoxication. Plenty of people use alcohol and lose control.

I always found it interesting that Jesus did not tell those at the wedding where he turned the water into wine that they should all stop drinking. Since the wedding reception had been going on all day, and the people had been drinking and were undoubtedly feeling pretty good, why did Jesus not just say, “Well, you’ve all had enough anyway” when told they were out of wine? Apparently Jesus does not fear intoxication as much as we do.

3. I’m not confusing prescription drug use with illegal drugs. I said that prohibition always penalizes the innocent. Since the war on drugs began, the U.S. has gotten more and more restrictive with legal drugs even sending physicians to jail because some politicians did not agree with a doctor’s decision in prescribing prescription pain medication.

4. According to a 2002 report by the Hazelden foundation, workers fear seeking treatment for addictions for fear of losing their jobs and the Caron Foundation issued a report on women and addiction which showed women feared losing their children if they admitted to a drug problem because counselors are required to report to law enforcement if they believe a child could be in danger.


John, you are entitled
to your ignorant assumptions and opinions. I disagree with your position on law. Few with any experience or formal education in the subject would contradict the statement that the moral basis for our laws is predominantly judeo-christian beliefs and traditions - not the kitchen sink of history. And, yet you have written nothing to support your position other than your opinion. Why should your opinion carry more weight than mine? I suspect the learning is yours to do.

I omit references to the use of hemp, coca and other products, therefore you assume I am ignorant of their uses. John, examples offered to support one's position or explain a position don't necessarily need to be exhaustive. One will do - especially here on TH.

I distinguished wine from newer drugs like cocaine. If you cannot understand the differences, you have no intellectual imagination, and sadly, that's your problem. You haven't offered a rebuttal to any argument I've made so it may be safe for me to now assume you may be incapable of doing so. How is it that disagreement somehow becomes falsehood or ignorance? My, aren't we the egomaniac? Oooo, John has written! All bow to the munificence of John's great intellect! All concede! It'll take more than insults to persuade me, John.

Jenny
I agree with you, but while what you say is true, it is not related to the point that John Stossel is making. He is not arguing that legalization will help drug addicted people per se (an argument could be made that by making their condition a social and treatment issue instead of a legal one, more of them might be helped, but John Stossel did not make that argument in this piece).

The argument was rather that banning drugs is not, in fact, effective in stopping the flow of drugs; and that it creates additional conditions of violence and exploitation, all at tremendous cost. Furthermore, he argues that this War on Drugs harms the addicted in ways above and beyond the harm created by addiction per se.

Agree or disagree, but let's please keep the discussion to the points being made.

Wow
Thank you for writing this article Mr. Stossel. This should be an issue that conservatives push hard. The War On Drugs is a proven failure that neither party wants to address even though the costs every year are enormous.

Legalize drugs
Legalization would be an improvement over the system we have now. Legalization should be accompanied by criminal penalties for crimes that are not compromised by the legal defense of "under the influence." DUI's are a good example. Those guilty of DUI are given a sentence that tells everyone that the public is not serious about the crime. To summate, we are not talking about creating a perfect world we are talking about making a better one.

I agree with Stossel
The opposition will have you think that prohibition is somehow effective. Legalization is not a perfect answer, but it is better than what we have now. People who want to use drugs will use them regardless. Future abusers of drugs will use them regardless. It comes down to violence, crime, and ridiculous jail sentences for illegal drugs vs a potential slight increase in drug abuse for legalization. The tax benefits from legalization will cover the cost associated with drug treatment due to an increase in abuse.

Ms. Kelly
OK, now I believe we've got a real discussion going.

1. As part of a religious ceremony, people take all kinds of substances in small amounts, typically symbolically and not recreationally. I have no objection to that practice. However, I hope you will agree that in that context, so-called "drug use" is very limited.

2. To an extent I agree with that statement. However, the use of certain drugs even once as well as over time damages brain function and judgement - meth for example. Look at the shrinking environment for alcohol consumption: employers won't allow employees to drink during office hours as they used to do and driving under the influence is now strictly prohibited and enforced.

Sure, we didn't read that comment from Jesus in the record, but it may have been omitted because the authors found it prejudicial!

3. As a society, we have decided that inconveniencing some by making it more difficult to obtain prescription drugs is an acceptable burden in order to prevent others from obtaining those drugs. That isn't the same as stating that prohibition always penalizes the innocent. I am sorry if you have been inconvenienced, but can you understand that some limitations and threat of penalties for writing bogus prescriptions are necessary? Would you then suggest that all restrictions be taken off prescription pain meds? What types of restrictions should we have?

4. Interesting, but I wonder, wouldn't someone who truly, honestly wanted help be willing to risk the consequences of drug use? If children are in fact being neglected by a drug using parent, isn't taking them out of the home a prudent thing for the safety of the children? Many states prohibit retaliation against employees who anonymously seek help. If these people are afraid, perhaps the problem would be solved by education and awareness of their rights of privacy.

Alecto
I can’t say whether drug use in religious ceremonies is “very limited” since I am not a part of those religions.

I believe that methamphetamines were developed, in part, because it was cheap and the ingredients were easily obtained. Perhaps if more traditional drugs such as cocaine were not illegal, the meth trade would not have flourished. It’s interesting to note that in the Netherlands, where “soft drugs” are more tolerated, hard drugs such as heroin are used less frequently than here.

I believe that God authored the Bible, so I won’t agree with the statement about Jesus’ lack of a reprimand at the wedding. You might be shocked to know that I am a Christian. I just am very opposed to a government determined to save us from ourselves. Governments should only exist to save us from OTHERS.

I do not believe that making it hard for me to get a prescription filled is acceptable. Only people who don’t live with pain think that way. About penalizes the innocent, I was referring to the general principle that government will penalize those who abide by the law when they can’t make any headway with criminals. As in the case with guns. Government tries to put burdensome laws on gun ownership because they can’t control criminals getting illegal weapons. This way, law makers can tell everyone they are doing something about guns when in reality they aren’t doing anything because they only inhibit the people who aren’t hurting anyone.

The bottom line for me is the more government controls, the more government wants to control. Stop and think. What would happen if legislators ran out of laws to make? Would it suddenly occur to everyone that maybe we could send them all home; that maybe we didn’t need them? This means that government must always be making new laws, otherwise, they might be unemployed.

Thanks for the lively discussion, but I really must get on with some other duties today.

Have a great week!

Alecto
Well, you are a bit daft to begin with, but here goes.

I actually have good deal of education on such topics, especially on the intersection of law, morality and History. Your claim that anyone educated on the topic would admit that Western law is based on Judeo Christian beliefs is laughable.

The best know ancient law code was the Code of Hammurabi, which predates Jewish culture by a good bit. The greek law code written by Draco, was actually a moderate code for its time, though it seems Draconian to us, hence the term. Improved over time, the Greek laws influenced Pericles, among others, ended up remakably similar to many later codes. The Roman "12 Tables" are a critical development as well, owing no apparent credit to Jewish law or tradition. Egyptian law probably influenced all of the above.

This is not to say that Judaism and CHristianity had no influence, but rather that they were influenced themselves and became simply one among many influences.

confirming my point
I made the point above that even when Stossel has a good conclusion he gives arguments that suggest he is not a particularly deep thinker. In the above he unnecessarily straw mans Obama in making his argument.

Since I wrote that an article by Sullom has appeared which has the same conclusions as the argument above, and is equally critical of Obama, but manages to attack Obama's actual view. So I was right that it can be done.

Oddly that article is much less popular than this weaker version. But maybe it is just early.

The problem with all or nothing
Too many here seem to be positing an all or nothing approach. Neither is reasonal or rational. There are some drugs, like marijuana, that aren't as dangerous as say, meth or cocaine, and could be legalized.

Likewise, there are drugs like heroine, meth, and coke, that have a deleterious affect that banning them is reasonable. To lump all these into one class and deem them all worthy of banning is simply ludicrous.

In a free society, we should be able to screw our lives up if we wish. But as mentioned by another poster earlier, we have far too much socialism. This socialism coddles people, cushioning them from experiencing the results of their choices. Thus, they don't learn and keep repeating the same mistakes causing those of us who are responsible to pay for their care.

As a Christian libertarian, I understand the same liberties that grant me the freedom to worship as I choose are the same liberties that others excercise when engaging what I would consider sin. If I trespass on their liberties to engage in sin, I cannot complain when they attempt to trespass on my freedom to worship.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

No drug is harmful when used

in moderation. All drugs are harmful when used in excess. Also, all drugs can be used in moderation.

People are selling out to "Big Brother".

Too many Americans feel they are unable to make their own decisions and that government is there to tell them right and wrong.

That is, of course, nonsense.

Stop It
We are so use to government regulation that we do not give any thought to how it intrudes upon our freedom. What people decide to do with their own bodies should be none of the governments business. The War On Drugs is a political issue supported by propaganda. It should not be the role of government to dictate what is or is not good for me. I am perfectly capable of making those decisions myself.

"Build it and they will come!"
And we did. We built the popularity with the Hippy gen. With our dazed Hollywood beauties smiling through the pot smoke stink and showing white coated nostrils. We laughed knowingly when we talked about how innocuous ganja was. We'd quit when we were ready, right? Coke? "No problemo bro. Under control. What day is it anyway? Where's the kids honey? Honey?"
They've come. By mega tons. By the millions of screwed lives both of the users and their families. By the kids murdered or sexually abused, or worse born crack babies. Hello drug crazed mommies and daddies those are not dolls you're shaking!
They've come and with them they've brought violence, degradation and untold agony to millions just like you.
For all intents and purposes, drugs are legal now! They're available everywhere. Even in prison. The Mexican violence is just those impish narco guys cutting down the competition. Good business practice, eh?
Make it really legal? To whom? People over 21? Then the illegal market would move to the under 21 crowd would it not? There really is no answer except total destruction of those engaged. We won't do that. Oh, by the way, the people who make most of the dough off the trade? They spend a lot of time in the various capitols around the world. The other job ya know.
Wanna see the recreational drug scene first hand? Take a ride-a-long with an inner city drug task force. Oh, better take a barf bag!

Legalize marijuana!
Sure, let us “totally destroy” every kid under 21 who drinks alcohol: works for me! Should we start putting to death adulterers also? Cut the hands off petty thieves (while we keep supporting Wall Street even!). Stone to death unwed girls who have sex (watch out Bristol), and illegitimate children?

Does your marijuana “addiction” make you go home and beat your wife? O, no, that is alcohol. Does your marijuana “addiction” cause you to kill an entire family while driving? O, no, that is alcohol. Does your marijuana “addiction” get you into a bar fight? O, no, that is drunken fools using their illustrious problem-solving skills . . .

Stoners don’t throw beer bottles onto the hoop court, alcohol-buzzed idiots do.

Let us outlaw the real drug pushers, Budweiser and Marlboro, and legalize the Lord’s gift to humanity: green seed-bearing herb (marijuana that is).

Shirk yourself of a lifetime of government and big business propaganda and quit oppressing me brother; I come in peace and cause you no harm, why are you legislating your belief system upon me?

Why would you want to throw me in prison for smoking a little herb?!?

Keep it green!

Alecto #35: Red Wine with Cocaine? Never
Surely you aren't serious about Malbec with Cocaine. It calls for a light, perhaps fruity, white wine. Maybe even with a hint of spritz.

Just remember: white line, white wine.


Prohibition

It's been proven not to work but that's besides the point.

0bama likes a good crisis and isn't about to let another one go to waste. Everybody knows he wants to ban guns and this drug crisis is just the ticket for grabbing guns.

The issue of legalization is besides the point... it's not like we live in a free country or anything.

Why are you worried ?
Dont't you know that the two Senators from Washington State will be riding down and rescueing you poor devils from the violence along the border and all the druggies?? Senators Cantwell and Murray are all over this problem, like stink on a skunk. Legalize drugs? Why ? You can get "high" just watching all of the politicians running around doing nothing, expect line their own pockets. What an absolute mess our country has become.

Why should the rest of us ...
enable people who are unhappy with life to complicate the problem further with legal and available drugs. The Dutch don't leave their homes unattended for fear of robbery.
Perot was correct about one thing .... instead of lifting weights, etc. in prison ... the prisoners should be building their own confinement facilities. If the nation were serious about fighting crime instead of employing the fear it gererates as a political tool for carreer advancement and financial gain the problem would be quickly resolved. Not eliminated, as even the best of us aren't all that good; but definitely mitigated.

Prohibition
Prohibition has been proven to make men rich!

Al Capone was a second rate leg-breaker before Prohibition but he ended up choosing the mayor of Chicago. Those Mexican drug cartel guys would be working in car washes without the money they get from drug prohibition.

At its worst there were 1500 drug gang related killings in Los Angeles in a single year. How many fatal overdoses were there? 50? 100?

New York and Detroit were even worse.

Keep drugs illegal. Soon we will be able to build that wall on the Mexican border with the bodies of people killed in the drug cartel wars.

Not a conservative idea
It's not a conservative idea to legalize drugs and it is definitely not Obama's war on drugs. Conservatives have become flavor of the week politicians. It's getting old.

Jury Duty

We can end the War on Drugs simply by refusing to vote guilty when on a jury for a drug crime. Enough people do it and eventually the prosecution will give up trying. Then maybe the useless Congress will repeal the unconstitutional drug laws.

our mad drug laws
We promote dangerous drugs (Vioxx) to be given for pain that are expensive, yet inexpensive opiates are nearly impossible to obtain. Opiates are also not per se dangerous drugs. I worked in law enforcement for 3 years -- in over 1000 criminal situations I noticed that (1) alcohol made people dangerous and violent (2) pot did not.

Cocaine and heroin were easily available in 1900 -- America was not a "horrible" country at that point. People forget that these drugs did not invent themsleves in 1970 -- they are hundreds of years old.

People who are superfat are more negative to our economy than heroin abusers. The 1000 pound people who get profiled on televsion have horrible health issues and cannot work. Somebody who uses heroin in many cases can work (and assuming they obain clean heroin and clean needles) the heroin itself is not dangerous. On the other hand, somebody who took vioxx for 5 years is pretty likey to have a heart attack or stroke (but the drug companies make money on vioxx and other synthetic drugs, an opiate is from a plant -- so there is not much money in it).

Did Prohibition work?
Examining the data in the following website suggests that Prohibition may have been effective.
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=alcoholism&cdn=health&tm= 7&gps=282_83_1011_591&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p736.8.336.ip_& tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/Dat abaseResources/QuickFacts/AlcoholSales/consum01.htm
If one looks at the per capita consumption of alcohol since 1850 it appears that consumption of alcohol decreased in the decades following Prohibition from what it was in the decades immediately before Prohibition and did not return to those levels until about 1960. This suggests that Prohibition gave a stigma to alcohol consumption in some places and that stigma lasted for nearly 30 years after Prohibition ended.

M form Idaho
Of course the number of alcohol consumers went down, but proportionately criminal's welth went up as did violence and corruption. Logically what you gained versus what you lost, eventually convinced clear thnking people to do away with the idiotic law.
In the same venue, what is considered "illegal" drugs, is the cause for criminal activity at the border as well as inside the United States, and yes, it keeps down illegal drug consumption. One has to ask: does it improve the overall "quality of life" for Americans? Billions have been spent to "stamp" out drug use and it did not. If we were to return to the times when there was no prohibition of any substances, we could come to so much improvement in the well-being of our society and the return of what America represented: individual personl freedom. Furtheremore, less federal and local spending for law enforcement while taxes replenishing depleted government funds. Definitely less violence and less border security issues.
Anyone can see that what was and worked, should be brought back.

the stigma tradeoff
Prohibition may have caused a stigma to alcohol consumption. I am not sure how that exactly is a "good" result. Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Prohibition left a lasting impression for years -- it aided organized crime a great deal. To me, that is not a very good result.

Cynthia, you said,

"The experts thought that legalizing and taxing prostitution in NV would "solve problems associated with illegal prostitution". Now, they have LOTS of prostitutes,MANY more than before, and a growing AIDS epidemic, which (surprise,surprise)has been spread by AIDS-infected,legal prostitutes,DESPITE the required STD testing they all undergo every week or 2, and the medical treatment when they test positive.
Things are SO BAD in downtown Las Vegas that Mormon missionaries are FORBIDDEN TO GO THERE. If they DO go, they are sent home in disgrace.
So much for "legalizing and regulating" vice!"

People should study up on a topic before spouting off stupidly. Prostitution is ILLEGAL in Clark County, NV, where Las Vegas is located. Counties in NV have the ability to choose whether or not to allow it, and Clark County chose to have problems with prostitution by keeping it illegal.

Townhall.com
If Townhall.com doesn't fix their site, so that posting works on a more regular basis, I think we should all go elsewhere. This isn't the only conservative website on the net.

Politicians are not real bright
So you outlaw alcohol, and many law abiding citizens obey the law and stop drinking. Others continue to drink, making them criminals. And the REAL criminals, who were criminals before the law, just move into a new territory, and make obscene profits.
Same with drugs. Yeah, there were people with addiction problems before the drugs were made illegal. There were problems with alcoholism before prohobition. Did the newfound illegality of drugs or alcohol SOLVE any problems? No, they just gave criminals new territory to make their money in.
So when they prohibit guns, will the problem of gun violence be solved? Hardly. Law abiding gun owners will either turn in their only defense against criminals, or become criminals themselves when they refuse. Nearly all gun violence is perpetrated by criminals, who do not respect ANY laws, and will not change their ways when guns are prohibited. But the REAL money will go to those who will step into the brand new black market gun prohibition provides.

tracked like a criminal
Let's not forget the criminalization of buying over-the-counter cold and allergy medication.

I am now tracked by the Feds when I buy Claritin-D for my seasonal allergies. Am I breaking the law? Have I been caught making meth? Do most criminals get their supply from grocery stores? No!!!

But I'm still treated like a criminal.

And if you have children with allergies, you have to get relatives to buy their medication because no one under 18 is allowed to and you yourself are limited to 10 or 15 pills at a time.

How I long for the freedom I used to have in buying allergy medicine.

Seriously???
Brencis: South Africa has major problems, but you can't look at an effect and decide the cause for yourself. I've seen fat people drinking Diet Coke (Coke Light for you Euro readers!), but I don't conclude that Diet Coke makes them fat. There's a lot more going on in SA that is causing their problems, and cracking down (pun intended) on drugs is not going to help any of the problems listed.

Argument about Nevada and prostitutes: you've obviously never been to a nightclub in any major city. At least most prostitutes have the common sense to use condoms. Plus, when you legalize prostitution, you don't turn people into prostitutes, prostitutes come to the city to work.

Alecto: the one thing you're avoiding in your arguments is that the harsh drugs, such as heroine, meth, and cocaine, are being taken by people. The current system of laws did not thwart them from going down the path they chose. I nearly lost my sister-in-law because she overdosed on heroine multiple times. What did our current laws do to protect her?

MJ vs Alcohol
There are a lot more reasons to ban alcohol than marijuana.

1) Ask anyone if they've ever seen a stoned person drive above the speed limit. Not likely, because of the paranoia. Drunk person? More likely to speed and less aware of possible consequences.

2) Let's take a moment of silence to remember those who have died as a result of overdosing from pot okay moment over. Now let's discuss the number of deaths just from alcohol poisoning: 1,393 per year. That's not including drunk driving fatalities. In 2006, there were 13,470 fatalities in crashes involving an alcohol-impaired driver (BAC of .08 or higher) – 32 percent of total traffic fatalities for the year.

Sources:
http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-1/110-120.htm

Stossel is right again!
Legalize it! Free the people, put the drug cartels out of business, and expand our individual liberties.
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