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Wednesday, April 08, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Universal Pre-K Scam
by John Stossel
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Did you go to preschool? When I was growing up, few kids did. But now there is a new movement that says every child in America should have a chance to start school before kindergarten -- at taxpayer expense.

It's part of President Obama's massive spending plans. His "stimulus" bill includes an Early Learning Challenge Grant to encourage states to "Develop a cutting-edge plan to raise the quality of your early learning programs" (http://tinyurl.com/cv6s23). It's a popular idea. Sixty-seven percent of Americans favor universal pre-K funded by the government. But I doubt that most Americans have thought it through.

Mia Levi has. She told me, "This whole thing is a scam."

Levi runs six preschools. I thought she'd favor the program, since she'd collect easy money from the government.

"I don't want to have to answer to the government," she said in my ABC special "Bailouts and Bull." "Our programs are so far superior."

Universal pre-K would create a single standard for preschools, but why is that a good thing? Why should we think there is one way to do preschool and that government experts know what it is? President Obama doesn't acknowledge what Nobel economist F. A. Hayek taught us: Competition is a discovery process.

Levi has to work hard to improve her schools because she knows that, unlike with government services, parents have options.

"If we didn't do our job, families would go down the street to the next school. Public schools aren't doing their job, and they get to just keep opening their doors. To say that they are the ones to define ... quality is laughable."

As she says, the pre-K movement has the whiff of scam about it. Most American kids already attend preschool. Parents pay for it themselves, and those who can't afford it can get government subsidies or use free programs like Head Start. But under universal pre-K, taxpayers would pay for every child.

"It's a flagrant waste of money," Levi said. "It's as if I went shopping for myself because I needed a dress for a party and I bought a dress for everybody else whether they needed it or not."

But we keep hearing that investment in pre-K will pay off later. Obama says, "For every dollar we invest in these programs, we get nearly $10 back in reduced welfare rolls, fewer health costs and less crime."

Those glowing statistics come from tiny studies (58 children) of places like Michigan's Perry Preschool. But those low-income, low-IQ kids got much more than preschool, including after-school tutoring, and their moms and dads got parenting classes.

Lisa Snell, education director of the Reason Foundation, says you can't expect similar results with middle- and higher income children.

In addition, lots of studies say the preschool effect fades. Head Start is revered for raising test scores, but studies show that by grades 3 or 4 those gains vanish.

"They can't tell the difference between the kids that went to Head Start and the kids who didn't," Snell says. "When they compared them to the kids that are disadvantaged that didn't go to Head Start, they can't tell from their test scores which kids had the treatment of Head Start."

There's still another flaw in the program. Some studies have found that too much school may lead to disruptive and aggressive behavior. Libby Doggett, who leads one of the biggest pre-K advocacy groups, concedes that, but claims that "high-quality" government programs benefit children. She said Oklahoma and Georgia have them already.

But those states, despite spending billions of tax dollars on preschool for the past 10 years, have not shown impressive results. Oklahoma's students lost ground to kids from other states.

Doggett replied: "We don't want to just focus on IQ scores. We want to look at how children are doing in their social and emotional, their non-cognitive development."

Please. When the huge government program fails to raise scores, the central planners promise it will help the kids socially?

Give me a break.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Universal Pre-K
Many people have found their selves and have self power. And the self they have found is vastly different from the self that we have found for ourselves. So different that they want to kill us. They are not dumb or ignorant; they are well-educated, sometimes right here in the USA.

Hey, Pre-K is no place to fight this battle for the minds of people around the world. Let the kids do kid stuff or learn however they want; kids develop at such different rates and in such different ways that Age-Based Grades seem to be so counter productive.

The good kids will catch up in high school/college. How many immigrant kids are at the top of their class after starting from scratch at age 11 or even 14?

Universal Pre Ks & Universal Kids & laws
The reason for Universal Preschools is that President Obama is adhering to my ( Rose Global Peace & Reform Porgram;change toward universalizing patterns and demand to enforce Universal Laws thrugh the United Nations for putting an end from Global Child Abuse to Leadership People Abuse if we enforce Universal Leadership Standards! It is not wanting to have people become like us but to find their self and have Self Power and enjoy becoming a non-judgemental non=prejudiced Universal Being & so on... I wrote 9 books in 1994 pioneering Universal Psychology of Health and Excellence!

A Libertarian View
Mandatory Pre-K is high atop the northeast and west coast liberal agenda. The idea is to get kids away from those middle class parents and stay at home moms in flyover country who go to church and vote Republican and drive SUVs and trucks. They want our kids under them as early in life as possible so they can begin liberal indoctrination at as early an age as possible. The teacher's unions support it because it grows their ranks and produces more union dues for mob bosses and for lobbying the government for more money. Neither the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence refer to education. The founders wanted the federal government OUT of education. It is simple: More government is bad, less government is good!

Pre-K education
I did not attend any pre-K school--when I turned 5 I was enrolled in grade school--a one-room country school with no electricity (windows and kerosene lamps), no running water (a hand pump on a well in the front yard), and heated by a coal-burning stove fired by the teacher. In those days, there was a school for each 4 square miles of farmland. I do not know the educational background of the teacher, but both my mother and her sister taught in similar schools--each had two years of high school. There were 4 pupils. Two of the four of us have retired from the faculties of major unversities. I entered a Big 10 University when I was 16, and graduate school when I was 20. We were not distracted by extra-curricular activities--we studied! Discipline was not a problem--we knew that if we did not behave and do the work, we would not sit down comfortably for some time. We need that now! At that time all high school graduates took an exam for scholarships. I ranked 2nd in my county. I did not get a scholarship "because I didn't need it--my parents had already paid my tuition."
Most of my University instructors were Assistant Professors. I became one after serving 2 years in the Air Force during the Korean conflict. I retired 30 years later as an assistant professor because the Dean of the Graduate College was an intellectual snob who would not allow my promotion since I had only a BS degree. I am nationally known in my field and have written for three magazines (monthly columnist for one for 8 years) in my field of Residential Construction. I passed my knowledge on to one of my sons, and he is continuing my work as a home inspector for prospective buyers and solver of problems with existing houses.
We have files on nearly 8,000 dwelling units in Illinois.
Most of today's academic requirememts are pure B.S. What is needed are knowledgeable teachers with an interest in teaching their students.

The lack of support for funding school v
The lack of support for funding school vouchers in DC says it about the phony dems !! (and I was one one - officially and paid, if it makes a difference)

I there a nexus here?
Universal preschool standards and the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child described in the Political article "Parental rights: The new wedge issue" http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21041.html

Somehow this all smells like tactics Hitler used in his Youth movement.

Georgia as an example of success
lol. Georgia has some of the worst schools in the country, but they are holding it up as an example of the success of the program.

Instead of rolling out more government funded (and forced standardized) education. We should be rolling out more support for private education.

I'm researching schools for my kids right now & found one in my city that does a better job teaching kids for less than 6K a year than the public schools do that are spending over 10K per child a year.

It's not the funding. It's the government control and lack of involving parents in the decision making process that is the problem.

It's the Joycelyn Elders Agenda
Remember when this lady (I'm being generous due to Holy Week)got canned by Bill Clinton?

It was shortly after she said publically with her motherly smile, that they wanted to get your kids and teach them to masturbate... (before you parents get all that nasty Christianity stuff into their heads)

good news/bad news
the bad news is that government is going to try to indoctrinate the children at an even earlier age.

the good news is that they are depending on public education and the teacher's union to do it!!

we all know that public education is a farce. It is a government program designed to enrich the teacher's unions and hire as many teachers/administrators as possible. The fact that some students actually graduate from public school knowing anything is purely by accident and not by design.

Pre-Indoctrination
Govt Pre-K is Obama's chance to start the Obama Youth movement even earlier. He knows his American subjects are suckers for a free-ride and won't pass the chance to get their kids "educated" for free.

Just look at the auto-industry folks. Once this administration has is dirty fingers in your life, they tell you how to run it! Chrysler is now finding this out ... being scolded for putting out a vehicle they already had in the plans, already tooled up for, already budgeted.

Baloney
This is indeed a scam. The true intent of universal pre-K is to wrest control of small children from their parents and place them in government education camps where the brainwashing can begin even earlier. Every parent in America should say 'Hell, no' to this. I also disagree with the basic premise of pre-K. Children need time to be children, not to be students from birth. Whatever happened to play?

Medved grew up.
He USED to be a flaming San Fran lib radical then he grew a brain and became conservative. "If you're 20 and not a liberal you have no heart but if you're 40 and still a liberal you have no brain."- Winston Churchill

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

The Pied Piper & The Emperor'sNewClothes

http://www.universalpreschool.com/articles/hem_pied_piper.a sp

This article, by a former school principal, addresses the flaws in 'Universal Preschool' quite well. I am glad my children will be too old, by the time this is instituted, to be forced into it. As it is, I am about the only parent on my street who has kept her children home (including well beyond Kindergarten - we homeschool). It is just the expected thing, that you will find a preschool and get them started on the road to institutionalized learning...as if children cannot learn otherwise.

I am so, so glad my children are too old to be forced into preschool in the name of teaching them things. They learn so well WITHOUT all that.

Control the children
It's a big ploy to separate parents from their kids so the smart people in government can teach them about global warming crap and social justice.

David in FL
quoth David: "Where my grandaughter went to preschool, was paid by the smart taxpayers of that city. They realise that a smart populace is an informed populace and less likely to vote against thier own self-interest. Yes. It is a fine idea for taxpayers to make their children smart."

And, of course, you are prepared to show some evidence that proves that the taxpayer-funded preschool actually *DID* make anybody any smarter?

As opposed to being just an expensive baby-sitting program -- ??

Tammy --
"I want to scream."

Be my guest. You may find it theraputic.

"Can't any columnist here make a point
without bringing up your precious tax dollars."

We are talking about government, and where it is going wrong. What else do you suppose would be part of the topic?

That, and the damage that's done to society in innumerable and ways by the willful misapplication of government power.

That's about it. Unless someone can think of something else, that's pretty much the only important general topics here. Government abuse of power and government waste of taxpayer dollars.

If you want to talk about knitting, or singing, or sky-diving, I suggest you troll a different forum.

Tim illustrates the Typical Liberal
Stossel even mentioned it in an interview he did for Reason magazine. Stossel is a libertarian. As such, he finds disagreement among conservatives about as much as he does among liberals.

But for reasons as yet to be determined, conservatives will disagree politely. They'll have reasoned discussions with him. They'll invite him to seminars, publish his articles.

They still disagree with much of what he says, strongly and vehemently. But politely.

And then we get liberals -- like Tim -- who apparently only have enough intelligence for ad hominem. (Look it up, Tim. You *do* know how to use a dictionary, right?)

I knew John Stossel
always wanted to be Magnum PI.

But he's turned out to be just another right wing dick head.

Maybe he can get a job on Fox.

Become to Big to Fail
The solution to this problem is getting as many women pregnant as possible and let the taxpayer and the state raise them.

Then vote for every tax hike that comes down the pike.

Get out and become an activist and blame what ever demographic that has the most money for all the ills.

Being responsible pays less then screwing up.

Only the suckers do the right thing and that’s the new world order.

The bigger the screws up the bigger the bail out don’t be shy people get with the program.

oh, and by the way II
As a high school teacher that was the biggest boondoggle I've experienced and I'm a serious conservative. So, David if that's your justification for universal Pre-school then maybe you need to take a good logic class.

to douglas
Obviously,You have no children in schools these long 8 years. No child Left Behind was an unfunded mandate to schools across the nation to conform to ONE way of testing.

oh ,and by the way
G.W.Bush imposed the largest unfunded mandate on our public schools with 'No child Left Be hind'. Remember that folks? Silly me . I guess you don't.

Roy
Oops. You are right. It's not Medved; they
are pretty much interchangeable.

It must be the mustaches.

OMG! Socialism!
Ummm. Where my grandaughter went to preschool,was paid by the smart taxpayers of that city.They realise that a smart populace is an informed populace and less likely to vote against thier own self-interest. Yes. It is a fine idea for taxpayers to make their children smart.

tammy
thats ok. their articles are interchangeable.

Tammy:
Medved is not the author of the article.

Real Point of the Bill
I pretty much read through all the posts and I'm not sure anybody hit on the actual objective
beyond earlier indoctrination of the little darlings.
Why if it's mandatory, the pre school teachers will then be able to join the teachers union. Where they can be good lap dogs for their Democrat masters.
Just more pandering to another toady special interest group. Democrat politics at it's finest. At least until the well runs dry.

deputy
"should have a chance to start school before kindergarten -- at taxpayer expense. "

Tammy
What the hell does Medved have to do with this thread?

Medved
I want to scream. Can't any columnist here make
a point without bringing up your precious
tax dollars. Do you ever think about anything
else on the face of this earth.

Education System in US is a MESS
Public (Government) Education in the US is not working. Our students on the average rank lower than other "modern" countries and even some "third world" countries. The federal government needs to get out of the education business. The Department of Eduction is a joke and should be dissolved. No Child Left Behind mean lowering the expectations of the students so all can succeed. We reduce expectations in the classroom to the lowest common denominator. In other words, don't challenge the students to achieve more than the child with the lowest ability. The teacher unions don't look at the needs of the student, but protect the teacher, even those who should no longer be in the classroom. For the federal government to fund preschool education would continue to joke. President Obama, please remove the federal government from the education business and let the teachers do their job of challenging all students to excel.

Robert
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 5:32 PM EST
It's Population Density, Hal
Western Kansas, Hal? ...You're going to keep an ICU open and staffed for one patient every month or two?"

The issue was where would I rather have a bad day and my answer was where in which country. You are absolutely correct. If you have a good ALS care provider they can provide the time necessary in a lot of cases.

"...And try talking to some Canadian doctors and nurses who moved to Maine to work in our 'broken' system ...to pay full price for our allegedly inferior medical services which they would have died while waiting to get them in Canada. Get back to me on this."

Glad to do so, Canada is bad not doubt about it. But that doesn't mean our system is not collapsing. What I find amazing from both the lunatic fringe like Fletch above to RINO's like Specter no one seems unset that we spend vast sums on poor healthcare. I thought they always said paying more for less was a liberal thing but this sacred cow seems untouchable. Are they Hindus like many of our best doctors LOL?

"Our system basically says if you can pay for medical care, you will. If you can't, you don't. In either case, you get it. What is unfair about that? "

Not a darn thing if it was true. The very poor usually can get good solid care and the very rich can get excellent care. BUT the middle class and the working class often lose everything because of huge debts. This is who suffers along with business saddled with huge employee healthcare costs. I see this happen near daily


Hey Nam65-66
School choice is the answer ....Yes! However do you really think obama is going to let down those teacher's unions and allow it? Georgie Bush had an experimental program with school choice in DC only, and one of barak's first actions was to nix it. He bows down to those who "brought him to the dance."(however he is not stupid enough to send his own kids to public school)
The demographic group with the highest percentage of their children enrolled in private schools? Yup....public school teachers!

It's Population Density, Hal
Western Kansas, Hal? Do you know the population density in Western Kansas? Or Arizona, for that matter? The town I live in has no ICU. The nearest one is a hundred miles away. There are less than 4,000 people in our town, and the next bigger town is a hundred miles away. Where would we put an ICU and who would use it? You're going to keep an ICU open and staffed for one patient every month or two?
And try talking to some Canadian doctors and nurses who moved to Maine to work in our 'broken' system instead of the wonderful Canadian system. Or some of the many Canadians willing to pay full price for our allegedly inferior medical services which they would have died while waiting to get them in Canada. Get back to me on this.

Our system basically says if you can pay for medical care, you will. If you can't, you don't. In either case, you get it. What is unfair about that? Sounds rather generous to me. Our small medical clinic has about half of the people pay through medical insurance, about a quarter through welfare, and about a quarter not at all because they are illegal aliens. Like seatbelts, it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Typical liberalism
"LOL so you deny that this is a definite trend happening more and more for real care and not seeking 'alternative treatments'?"

There is simply no evidence to support that contention - none.

"...and you 'dealt with' was BS..."

The standard Hal Donahue reply for any fact that he doesn't like. It's what we've come to expect. Kind of like using "LOL" whenevr you can't address something as if it is a substitute for rational argument.

"First, the Canadian healthcare system is among the worse...."

In other words, you concede the point but pretend that becasue you can't refute the facts, you believe that I am not prepared to address other countries and so alter focus. Gotcha.

"But we have US healthcare system that do provide good universal care."

No, that's precidely the point. They do no such thing. Rationing of care takes place in BOTH systems and the exodus of doctors from medicare participating practices is particularly on point.

"Study the Dutch system if you dare"

I will have to revisit the data. I concede that I do not recall that country's figures off the top of my head. Usually, when presented with superiority of socialist policies, I get Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Norway (that's a favorite among those who can't comprehend the data) and the Scandinavian countries (all of which have the same failures to one degree or another). The Dutch system was certainly in the comprhensive analysis of Western Europe but I'll actually have to take the time to look it up (because I won't simply hold forth without the info). Given the overall data (and its universla conclusion) I seriously doubt it will be any different from anywhere else.

The Doofass scribbles:
Good grief you have no capacity for rational thought.

This coming from a man who claimed:

(1) TR protested US involvement in WWI

(2) Lincoln protested the Blackhawk War

(3) Businessmen in Sumter, SC had their membership in the KK printed on their business cards.

(4) Obumf^ck was a "moderate"

(5) That he initially supported GWB, after the "stolen election."

Doofass, you have no capacity for rational thought. Your mind is where original ideas, long term and short term memory ideas, hell all ideas go to die.

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 4:11 PM EST
I have NOTHING to be ashamed of
"Heart surgery and state of the Art cancer treatment are generally NOT considered ELECTIVE except in that you can elect not to have it and die sooner."

Again (and the sources you've provided do not dispute this), there is no evidence that such is occurring except in cases where the FDA has not approved such treatments here."

LOL so you deny that this is a definite trend happening more and more for real care and not seeking "alternative treatments"? You simply cannot admit that US healthcare mainly private sector is collapsing and headed for a crash similar to the overall economy

"....The false connection to longetivity has already been dealt with. It is not magically credible now.."

and you "dealt with" was BS LOL come on you really bought your own reply?

"Good grief you have no shame..."

Good grief you have no capacity for rational thought. No, I have never been in a universal (sic) system albeit I researched the Canadian system before spending time there..."

First, the Canadian healthcare system is among the worse. But we have US healthcare system that do provide good universal care. The Medicare system and the military system. Study the Dutch system if you dare

Doofass:
Why don't you do us all a favor and move to Europe. Either that or because you love Socialism so much, go live in a Socialist Paradise, say the DPRK or Cuba.

Robert
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 4:24 PM EST
When I lived in Maine, Hal
. . . I knew Stephen King personally. ...the same ICU was an unemployed alcoholic with no insurance who had stepped in front of a car. He was received in the same emergency room, given the same care, and was recuperating in the same ICU."

That is because they had an ICU available and beds and docs in the ICU. Now try to do that in say western Kansas say. And umemployed guy is now most likely bankrupt if he owned anything.

"...Now where would you like to have your accident? I don't know anyone who was run down by a van in Germany, but I find it hard to fault the care that King and the alcoholic got in the United States."

Anecdotal evidence but I tell you what the results would be the same here or in Germany. Our medical professionals are superb but grossly hampered by a collapsing system. Go talk to three doctors, three nurses and three aides at your nearest hospital. I wager they will agree with me.

Well done, Robert
While your example is, of course, anecdotal, it does not have the flaw of being contrary to the data available (or based entirely on subjective beliefs about how "spotty" coverage is here).

silly roy, this forum is for adults
One last time since your continued demonstration of an inability to read is an insurmountable problem.

"didn't you say last week that the austrian school's theories have never been implemented anywhere"

Economics is a SCIENCE, not a POLICY. There is nothing to "implement" anymore than one "implements" physics or chemistry. One undertakes actions and the sceince indicates how those actions play out. If you drop a brick from a building, it will adhere to physical laws; if one intervenes in the economy, the action will adhere to economic laws. Like advanced relativity theory, not all of economic laws are known with certainty so there are competing theories. To date, th Keynesian school (which advocates governmental intervention) has been an all but universal failure at explaining or predicting economic phenomena. In the testing ground of the real world, the Austrian school's theories have met every test placed before them.

I didn't say that I wouldn't want to "try it on a large scale" because, as I made clear at the time, there is nothing to "try".

In light of the above, the whole basis of your snide comment serves only to demonstrate your inability to read basic English (which you already demonstrated with your equally snide, and equally fallacious "anecdote" comment).

fletch
didn't you say last week that the austrian school's theories have never been implemented anywhere, isn't in practice now anywhere, and is unlikely to be implemented anywhere at anytime in the future? and that you are not sure if you would even want to try it on a large scale? now my question is in light of the above, when you post one of your ramblings, who are you trying to convince? us or yourself?

lightning_fast
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 3:56 PM EST
Viable Alternatives?
We already know what doesn't work; our current system. I don't see any reason not to give Obama's pre-K a try. Oklahoma has the best pre-K program in the country and has been getting good results....If we could get to these kids at an early age it might be possible to break the cycle..."

Thank you for saying it so well. You are exactly right. Breaking the cycle is the key and that takes education and opportunity.

"... I'm no expert but it is worth a try because I am tired of my tax dollars being used to support a system that has clearly failed."

Amen to that

When I lived in Maine, Hal
. . . I knew Stephen King personally. He was very generous to a halfway house I was the financial director for, and for three years lived two houses down from mine in Bangor. When he was hit by a van while walking, he ended up in ICU. In the same ICU was an unemployed alcoholic with no insurance who had stepped in front of a car. He was received in the same emergency room, given the same care, and was recuperating in the same ICU.

Now where would you like to have your accident? I don't know anyone who was run down by a van in Germany, but I find it hard to fault the care that King and the alcoholic got in the United States.

Nice try, Hal
"you don't trust government remember but study is not the issue they ARE sending patients as far away as India for treatment."

There's a difference beween not trusting government to manage a sector of the economy (given the universal evidence) and using generally agreed upon data. That patients are going abroad for treatment (as if there are not as many and more coming here from countries with universal - LOL - care) has been addressed.

the same Kaiser data indicates, the huge growth (and much of the current tourism) is to get alternative therapies or cutting edge procedures (often not yet approed by the FDA here)..."

That [the huge growth in medical tourism to get alternative therapies or cutting edge procedures often not yet approved by the FDA] was the case but no longer the shift is taking place."

To the contrary. That is what the bulk of the expected growth is attributed to.

"LMAO Ok you are now truly into the lunatic faction."

You're projecting again. The economist is a pro-state action journal wedded to the very same Keynesian notions of governmental economic stimulus that Obama is following. Only a blithering idiot would describe their position as even remotely "conservative". It's flaws are widely recognized by those not wedded to the Keynesian school, which is just as well since THAT school is disintegrating under its inability to reconcile theory with reality. Please don't pretend (degree notwithstanding) that you actually know anything about the current state of economic theory and analysis or, apparently, any distinction between liberal and conservative (as opposed to full blown Marxist and everyone else).

bporter
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 3:35 PM EST
Hal - quick question
You're poor. You have no health insurance. You get hit by a car while walking down the street and have injuries that are severe - even approaching fatal.

What country would you most want to be in to be sure that you get qualified and timely care?"

Depends where in what country. Long ago it would have been hands down this country. Now I simply cannot say that. Rural Germany has superb coverage rural US has spotty at best coverage. In the US it will ensure I stay poor the rest of my life In say Germany I will be OK. The standard of care across the industrialized urban world is good in most areas.

I have NOTHING to be ashamed of
"Heart surgery and state of the Art cancer treatment are generally NOT considered ELECTIVE except in that you can elect not to have it and die sooner."

Again (and the sources you've provided do not dispute this), there is no evidence that such is occurring except in cases where the FDA has not approved such treatments here.

"WOW now you are sounding like a Canadian healthcare official LOL. NECESSARY care??? Is that only emergency care?"

No. Emergency care certainly, heart surgeries and other life threatening ailments. Take your pick. The fact is that there are not "lots" (unless you redefine the term to ridiculously small levels) of Americans not getting necessary care. The false connection to longetivity has already been dealt with. It is not magically credible now.

"Good grief you have no shame..."

Good grief you have no capacity for rational thought. No, I have never been in a universal (sic) system albeit I researched the Canadian system before spending time there. It doesn't change the data. It can't.

Side note: roy, you know i've noticed that whenever someone says something you don't agree with, you feel the need to lie about them. For example, you keep pretending that I trot out anecdotal evidence as a response to studies or statistical data when (as is obvious to anyone who can read, I have never done anything of the kind). Why is that?

Parents check to the Village
At some point society has to make parenting a serious responsibility.

My children started a private preschool as 3 to 4 year olds at my expense and my wife and I actually fed them breakfast and made their lunch when they stayed through lunch. I am convinced these otherwise dim bulbs picked up habits that enabled all of them to graduate from UT Austin. Additionally we went to every open house, school play and athletic event. None of this should be exceptional and isnt. Its part of the responsibility of being a parent. During a recent incident I never heard anyone ask how you put eight kids through college at the same time or buy cars and insurance for eight kids. But then I forget everything is a free lunch or breakfast or preschool.

Viable Alternatives?
We already know what doesn't work; our current system. I don't see any reason not to give Obama's pre-K a try. Oklahoma has the best pre-K program in the country and has been getting good results. Most poor children enter school with less than half a middle-class child's vocabulary. They are usually malnourished and three grade levels behind by the time they enter middle-school.

The majority of our prison population have this background and depending upon the state is costs $20m to $30m a year to incarcerate them. If we could get to these kids at an early age it might be possible to break the cycle. I'm no expert but it is worth a try because I am tired of my tax dollars being used to support a system that has clearly failed.

@ tibby Apr 8, 3:26 PM
Bravo, Sir ! Form Steven Sailer:
"Professor Jencks noted that the data showed that liberalism's key assumption—that equal opportunity would lead to equal results—was wrong. Therefore, Jencks argued, we must have socialism. (That was a fairly original argument at the time, as it remains today).
The late Ernest Van Den Haag wrote in the old National Review that “Unlike his fellow socialists, Jencks no longer believes that inequality of results is the product of unequal social opportunity. He realizes that equal opportunity and advancement according to merit produce unequal incomes. Wherefore he urges that this most American (and constitutional) of ideas be abandoned, for he wants equality of results, even if it can be achieved only by making opportunity unequal. After all, it is luck rather than merit that determines results, and luck has no moral weight. Beyond this assertion (which has already been questioned), Jencks makes no serious attempt to justify morally his brand of equality. He simply assumes that we are all agreed… “As P. T. Bauer has pointed out, ‘income distribution’ suggests a fixed stock of income which the government is to distribute and which (discovered by luck?) is independent of the continuous work of those who earn it. Indeed Jencks feels that, since chance distributes income unequally, the government should be ‘…responsible…for its [more equal] distribution.’ However, the government does not produce the income Jencks wants it to distribute. Nor does chance. The earners do. There is no stock of income to be distributed; only a flow produced by those who earn it. That much is certain (economically) even if one doubts (morally) that the earners deserve to get what they earn. "

Hal - quick question
You're poor. You have no health insurance. You get hit by a car while walking down the street and have injuries that are severe - even approaching fatal.

What country would you most want to be in to be sure that you get qualified and timely care?

Equality
The government concept of a single standard for all is to lower the standard for underachievers so as to be able to claim that all have met the standard.

There is a big difference in the vision of what equality means in this country. There are those who believe in equality of opportunity and those who believe in equality of outcome. Both will yield results. One will result in achievement, independence and advancement of a society the other will breed mediocrity and dependence.

The sooner the government can get a hold on your kids, the sooner those kids can be molded in the image of the state. Sound far fetched ? Just look at the bulk of the product turned out in today's educational system.


Tibby

@ Moonbat Exterminator Apr 8, 3:10 PM
Dear Sir ! Can you kindly give a reference to what you read "that US 3rd & 4th graders test scores for reading and math were among the highest in the world, but that by middle school ..." ? I strongly suspect that there is no such thing as "US 3rd & 4th graders" in general; the results are different for different groups of population; see.e.g.
http://vdare.com/sailer/090406_graduate_school.htm . It reports mostly on the graduate school addmission, but still...
Respectfully, Florida resident.

fletch
you know i've noticed that whenever someone brings up anecdotal evidence you always dismiss it out of hand. but when you get backed into a corner you trot out the anecdotal evidence and expect everyone to treat it as gospel. why is that?

Help them Socially???
When the huge government program fails to raise scores, the central planners promise it will help the kids socially?


That's a laugh. How well is government funded school helping our children socially now?! The only truly well adjusted teenagers I know are homeschooled. Kids need parents, not teachers, in order to be successful in life.

Look the other way
Recently, I read that US 3rd & 4th graders test scores for reading and math were among the highest in the world, but that by middle school levels, the scores dropped precipitously. It seems that we should be concentrating efforts at the late elementary/middle school grades. Between the ages of 7 and 12 (+/-) children begin to assert individuality and frequently question or rebel against authority. Also they are exposed to distractions such as video games and peer pressure to ignore adademics. It's a normal part of growing up.

Curtis
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 2:51 PM EST
Gov. Jeb Bush made it work in Florida!
Jeb Bush implemented it in Florida, to excellent results...Don't poo-poo it. This single change would have a DRASTIC improvement on the subsequent years for the majority of students."

You will be called a RINO. You are willing to discuss and yes adjust your opinion as needed to build a better America. Too bad the fringe here and on the left can't do that.

Gov. Jeb Bush made it work in Florida!
Jeb Bush implemented it in Florida, to excellent results. My children attended 1 year of pre-k 1/2 day, and 1 year of full day of pre-k. The result: they were WAY ahead of their peers who did not attend pre-k. Then they had FULL DAY Kindergarten.

When they moved to Colorado, where there is NO pre-K and only 1/2 day Kinder, they were light years ahead, and that was in one of the top 10 schools in the state (Ralston). We experimented and put them in a Denver Public School and pulled them out in 2 months: the students were SO far behind, it was more than a couple of grade levels.

I'm a conservative, and I disagree with the notion that pre-K is damaging to them or just indoctrination. They just teach them the letters, basic math, and socialization skills so that they hit the ground running in Kinder and then first grade.

Don't poo-poo it. This single change would have a DRASTIC improvement on the subsequent years for the majority of students.

You're a Dolt, Jimmy
. . . Don't even try college. Become a plumber and make more than all the smart kids who went to college and were poly sci, womyns studies, and film majors. You can hire them to mow your lawn.

F1etch2
"... Kaiser, btw, uses a Deloitte study; I used the government collected figures."

you don't trust government remember but study is not the issue they ARE sending patients as far away as India for treatment

"...As even the same Kaiser data indicates, the huge growth (and much of the current tourism) is to get alternative therapies or cutting edge procedures (often not yet approed by the FDA here)..."

That was the case but no longer the shift is taking place

"...And you need to wake up and smell the coffee. No one with their heads not permanenty cemented beneath the turf ould seriously describe "The Economist" as "hardly a liberal pub." As an economist, I can tell you it is hardly and economic "pub"."

LMAO Ok you are now truly into the lunatic faction. The Economist is a conservative magazine plain and simple BUT it is not an extreme magazine. I hope you didn't pay much for that degree - it was wasted

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 12:54 PM EST...If you refuse to acknowledge reality I cannot help you at all. That is precidely the problem with modern liberalism....That some individuals choose to seek less expensive ELECTIVE care in the great hospitals of Brazil, that is their business..."

Heart surgery and state of the Art cancer treatment are generally NOT considered ELECTIVE except in that you can elect not to have it and die sooner.

"...It has NOTHING to do with accessibility of NECESSARY care - and, in fact, such elective care is ften IMPOSSIBLE to get in countries with socialized medicine."

WOW now you are sounding like a Canadian healthcare official LOL. NECESSARY care??? Is that only emergency care? What do you define as "necessary"? Lots of Americans do not get necessary care which is part of why our healthcare costs are up and longevity lagging

"...High cost IS a barrier to access but ONLY if that care is available in the first place and not banned by th rationing systems that are ubiquitous under universal (sic) systems..."

Good grief you have no shame LMAO. Have you ever been in a universal system? You have no idea what you are talking about


John
This is just another way for the gov. to brain wash our kids. I would never, nor did I put my kids in pre-school. They get to much garbage in pub. schools as it is.
Kirk

From Sailer's article just cited
...famous "A Nation at Risk" report issued by the Reagan Administration's Education Department in 1983. It warned:
"… the educational foundations of our society are presently being eroded by a rising tide of mediocrity that threatens our very future as a Nation and a people."
Ever since, we've been deluged with news stories about school reform.
And what has been the tangible result of this quarter century of tumultuous effort and vast expense (including nearly doubling the amount spent annually per student in constant dollars)?
Uh, not much …
I've been following American educational and other social statistics for more than just 25 years—since I was 13 in 1972, 36 long years ago.
After the turmoil of the 1960s, the last three-dozen years have turned out to be The Age of Few Surprises. Over that time, the high school dropout rate has gotten a little worse, the racial gaps haven't changed much, we still trail affluent East Asian countries (there are just a lot more of them now), and so forth and so on.
In short, the rising tide of mediocrity hasn't receded; and may well have kept rising

Apparently, what the schools do matters less in the big picture than who the students are. And the quality of students arriving at schools hasn't improved.


Sailer on the gap in educaton:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/080427_education.htm

From review by Mr. S. Nemeth of the book
"Real Education".
Charles Murray has written a brilliant analysis of the shortcomings of current American education, both K-12 and postsecondary. First among the problems he singles out is the pervasiveness of a mind-set he calls "educational romanticism." Educational romanticism takes as realism the Lake Wobegon fantasy, the notion that all children are above average. Consequently, Educational romantics tell the young, in smarmy Edgar Guest fashion, that there is nothing beyond their ability if only they try hard enough. Murray subtly points out the unintentional cruelty in this practice of encouraging overparted children to repeatedly set themselves up for failure. As an antidote, he suggests we accept the existential truth that schoolchildren are not equal in talents and abilities, that some are more gifted than others in the most important areas for academic futures, language skills and math ability. Such differences, he readily concedes, do not make one necessarily a better person, but they surely make one a better scholar and thus a more logical candidate for university attendance.

4 statements made in REAL EDUCATOIN book
Dear participants of the discussion!
Here are 4 discrete statements that Charles Murray makes in his recent (2008, $16.47+$4.00 S&H on amazon) book "Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality".
1) Children's ability vary;
2) Half of children are below average;
3) Too many people go to college; and
4) America's future depends on how we educate the academically gifted.

Three of those statements seem evident. Yet, when he states their implications they become controversial.

Television classic
"Because of the near total lack of birth control education and access, abortion in this country is a form of birth control."

Tattoo: DE PLANE! DE PLANE!

Mr Rourke: Good. Now, Tattoo, we need to prepare for our uests. This week we are catering to a fantasy where the US has been dominated by conservatism for 40 years and that the religious right has prevented people from learning about birth control...

Tattoo: Boss? How can we make such a fantasy believable? No one could possibly be stupid enough to believe that or that!

Mr. Rourk: Now, Tatoo, we must be nice to our guests...

Abilities vary, repeats Ch. Murray.
Dear participants of the discussion !
Somehow almost all of you adopt the so-called “nurture assumption”, according to which any child can reach any educational and professional height, if exposed to the proper structure of education and of home environment. Fortunately or unfortunately (your choice), it is well-established to be not so. In particular, the very, very numerous and thorough studies of identical twins and fraternal siblings, raised separately (i.e. by separate families) show considerable genetic component in both, intellectual abilities and in attitudes towards life. Hard studies and work by esteemed Mr. A. Williams are most, most laudable and enviable. But can you expect a person with low ability to study calculus hard for 5 hours a day during a year ?
No way he or she will do it; it gives only frustration --- to attempt doing something over your head. In the joking style of Clint Eastwood: “A man must know his limitations”.
I believe I know some of my own limitations, and I know there are things I would never be able to do, no matter how perfectly my teachers would try.

It is OK to disagree with the statements of the recent (2008) book “REAL EDUCATION” by Charles Murray (of “The Bell Curve” fame).
It is not smart --- to write about the role of education in American life, pretending that the “REAL EDUCATION” book had never been published.

Hal, Hal, Hal
If you refuse to acknowledge reality I cannot help you at all. That is precidely the problem with modern liberalism.

That some individuals choose to seek less expensive ELECTIVE care in the great hospitals of Brazil, that is their business. It has NOTHING to do with accessibility of NECESSARY care - and, in fact, such elective care is ften IMPOSSIBLE to get in countries with socialized medicine.

High cost IS a barrier to access but ONLY if that care is available in the first place and not banned by th rationing systems that are ubiquitous under universal (sic) systems. Kaiser, btw, uses a Deloitte study; I used the government collected figures.

That Kaiser has chosen to send patients to third world countries (assuming they are willing to go) to get elective procedures with large deductibles is their business. As even the same Kaiser data indicates, the huge growth (and much of the current tourism) is to get alternative therapies or cutting edge procedures (often not yet approed by the FDA here). THAT is a real accessibility problem in the US and, aguably, the care IS better in such circumstancs.

And you need to wake up and smell the coffee. No one with their heads not permanenty cemented beneath the turf ould seriously describe "The Economist" as "hardly a liberal pub." As an economist, I can tell you it is hardly and economic "pub".

Fletch
VERY nice takedown of the ever ignorant, ever liberal talking point spewing Hal!! Most of us don't have the time to refute his unending stream of lies and wishful thinking dressed up to have the faintest glimmer of plausibility!

Facts, Facts, Facts
John always provides us with facts that so often dispute what we are being told by certain agendas.
Who would possibly believe that those who run our public schools could do anything well, only those watching the fawning liberal media who want everything governmentally lead , if that government is made of democrats.
John has debunked public schools forever even challenging them to allow him in the schools of New York but was rebuffed because they knew he would not be intimidated and would report only facts, those darn facts, which will catch up to Obama eventually.

anderson659
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 12:38 PM EST
Hal Donahue-Fletch is correct
Your assertion from an article in the economist is incorrect. Here is an excerpt from the economist:

"In countries like Britain and Canada, with supposedly universal coverage, state spending is not keeping up with growing demand, so patients face long and agonising waits for operations. "

How is that critical of the US?"

LOL I was referring to medical tourism numbers. The Economist has repeatedly dismissed our healthcare system as collapsing as it is. Canada is little better. The UK is now recovering


Ms Kelly start here
The Impact of Head Start on Children, Families and Communities: Head Start Synthesis Project," Administration for Children, Youth and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, June 1985

Ron Haskins, "Beyond Metaphor: The Efficacy of Early Childhood Education," American Psychologist 44, no. 2 (February 1989)

Valeria E. Lee, J. BrooksGunn, Elizabeth Schnur, and FongRuey Liaw, "Are Head Start Effects Sustained? A Longitudinal Followup Comparison of Disadvantaged Children At tending Head Start, No Preschool, and Other Preschool Programs," Child Development 61, no. 2 (April 1990)

J. S. Fuerst of Chicago's Loyola University School of Social Work, referenced in "" Head Start Does Not Last," News week, January 27, 1992

Hal Donahue-Fletch is correct
Your assertion from an article in the economist is incorrect. Here is an excerpt from the economist:

"In countries like Britain and Canada, with supposedly universal coverage, state spending is not keeping up with growing demand, so patients face long and agonising waits for operations. "

How is that critical of the US?

The majority of the article deals with growing wealth and the Asian countries taking advantage of medical demands in that part of the world.

You need to revisit your statements for accuracy.




FROG
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 11:58 AM EST
Hal, first off ...
I always sign my name. First it helps keep me honest and stating only that which I would say to ones face without hiding behind a pseudonym..."

I was complimenting you. This is my name also. Too many folks here hid behind a pseudonym

"...Last, I find it interesting that you appear to equated birth control and abortion as equals when it comes to procreation. They are world apart in their differences and moral implications."

Because of the near total lack of birth control education and access, abortion in this country is a form of birth control. A direct result of the religious right.

"...If you wish to donate to help those in need, my hat is off to you..."

See here is your error. It is investment with an expected return. Not charity.

"...On this point, you appear to be forcing your dogma on me and doing that which the left decries of the religious right. Stop it!"

LOL nice try

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 11:49 AM EST
Correcting Hal; - 2
“We now have more than three quarters of a million patients going abroad for medical care.”

The best estimate is 500,000 (2006-2007) and it is a) overwhelmingly for elective procedures not covered by standard insurance plans ...issue has NOTHING to do with accessibility..."

If you refuse to acknowledge reality I cannot help you at all. Folks are going to these other countries BECAUSE of accessibility. High cost IS a barrier to access. Kaiser healthcare is actually sending patients abroad for medical care. Some companies are doing the same. Yes, cardiac, radiation, etc serious procedures. The care is every bit as good as our BEST hospitals and much cheaper. Just google medical tourism and read. My numbers come from the Economist hardly a liberal pub.

Good article, John but...
we needed to know who conducted those " lots of studies" and "other studies" which show that preschool is not that helpful.

Indiana's Governor promised taxpayer funded full-day kindergarten for several years, then citizens rebelling against out of control property taxes, which fund school programs, made him back off.

I expect, however, that he will try to implement this again at some point. If not him then someone else.

I would like to have the reference of your studies to counter the arguments.

You should always include a reference for your stats, or they come off suspect.

The fallacy of Head Start...
We knew that the claims of Head Start were false within 5 years of its inception - another Johnson great society program from 1965. Yet we have continued to fund it these past 40+ years despite the proof of failure.
We keep funding it, studies keep proving its failure, and we keep throwing more money at it. At what point do the insane expect the same action to achieve a positive result?

Hal, first off ...
I always sign my name. First it helps keep me honest and stating only that which I would say to ones face without hiding behind a pseudonym.

Second, you need to re-read my original post. How did you translate "limited resources" into "no resources"? Could it be ones bias that leads them to read things that aren't really there?

Last, I find it interesting that you appear to equated birth control and abortion as equals when it comes to procreation. They are world apart in their differences and moral implications.

If you wish to donate to help those in need, my hat is off to you. I donate to causes I deem worthy as well. But don't presuppose that your causes are more worthwhile then ones I choose and force me to support your causes via legislation and taxation. On this point, you appear to be forcing your dogma on me and doing that which the left decries of the religious right. Stop it!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Statements such as these are meaningless
"We now have more than three quarters of a million patients going abroad for medical care."

This doesn't even mean anything. First, there are 300 million people in the U.S. so this is a tiny number in percentage terms. Second, what is the time frame here? Is this per year or ever in their lives? What about repeat travels? Are they accounted for? Finally, where does this even number come from?

Please, if you're going to make statements like this, provide some context so that they have meaning. Otherwise, you might as well just be banging randomly on your keyboard.

Poor Hal
I have read a lot of comments on a lot of different articles but I don't think I have ever read a series of comments so confused and so lacking in rational thinking than those of Hal in this thread.

Hal: See if you can construct a single logical syllogism that supports anything you say.

You're silly.

Correcting Hal; - 2
“We now have more than three quarters of a million patients going abroad for medical care.”

The best estimate is 500,000 (2006-2007) and it is a) overwhelmingly for elective procedures not covered by standard insurance plans and not t countries with so-called stellar socialized medicine systems but to private doctors in countries with lower living standards: “India, Singapore, Hungary, South Africa, Dubai, Costa Rica and Brazil’. The issue has NOTHING to do with accessibility. And, as it happens, I have talked extensively on the issue with a number of doctors (as I have to visit them every month).

“LMAO quite the contrary even according to John my anecdote was very much in line with the research he poo-pooed.”

This is called LIBERAL READING DISORDER. Stossel said nothing of the kind. He said that Obama’s “glowing statistics” of “get[ting] nearly $10 back in reduced welfare rolls”, etc. came from a specific “tiny” study (58 children). The overwhelming research on the efficacy of such programs, particularly Head Start AS STOSSEL SAID, “show that by grades 3 or 4 those gains vanish.”

“show data”

Rankings of quality higher education institutions abound.

“Government does not always fail.”

The Welfare State, Social Security (a raw deal fro participants and bankrupt), flood insurance, the Federal Reserve System (which caused the financial crisis no matter how much you wish to remain in ill-educated denial), the SEC, the FDA, FEMA, public schools, banking regulation, the postal service, Amtrak, minimum wage laws, protectionist subsidies/tariffs … a litany of failure. Outside of the traditional governmental roles of national defense, public safety and the administration of justice (and there is ample cause to question even those things), what successes can you point to?

Correcting Hal - 1
"Really how so? Census data shows education in the old south pretty much inshambles"

California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico are part of the "Old South" and Virginia is not?!?! The map of high school education as compared to the national mean cuts directly across the country below UT, CO, KS, etc. while the northern mid-west (largely red states) are all above the mean. Florida is the geographic exception (and another red state above the mean). Your assessment is wholly inaccurate.

"Only if they [undereducated immigrants] are not supported by the government and population."

The statement is absurd on its face. The issue is not the CHILDREN of immigrants (which your example covers) but undereducated ADULTS well beyond public schooling years.

"LMAO yes it is [a liberal conclusion without real-world basis] and you grasp at straws and cherry pick."

My "straws" happen to be consistent with the data ... unlike your conclusions. Actually, if I was “wrong” anywhere, it was in so readily conceding the red state/blue state correlation.

"US private education is little better..."

LMAO. How can you make such obviously imbecilic statements and expect to be taken at all seriously, particularly when you follow it up with the "cherry-picking" canard, when, in fact, private schools that specialize in special needs (ad even expelled from public school) students are included in the data. It is another bald, completely unsupported assertion.

“I compliment you on your tap dancing ability.”

The technical term for THAT statement is “projection”.

If my facts are “wrong”, refute them. You can’t because, obviously, they are NOT wrong.

Hey Bleeding Heart ...
maybe we need a new government program that can determince "parental eligibility." In other words, once a person has matured and can reproduce, they are medically sterilized with a reversible procedure. Once a person matures and proves themselves worthy of procreating (mentally and financially stable), the government allows them to petition for reversal of the sterilization.

This way, the only ones who can reproduce are the ones who can afford to take care of their progeny. Problem solved.

Man, just think of all the good things government can do!!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Hal Donahue states:
"We now have more than three quarters of a million patients going abroad for medical care."

This is a fairly sizable number, but without providing any evidence as to WHY they are travelling abroad, I can just as easily come up with my own reasoning. How about the fact that many patients wish to try non-conventional healing methods? Or how about the deathly ill patients that have nothing to lose and wish to try experimental medications that cannot be obtained or tried here? For all the good the FDA does, someitmes they hinder personal liberty by preventing access to some medical treatments.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

FROG
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 10:44 AM EST
A few years back ..
there was a great debate locally about school start times. The limited resources of school busses and drivers meant scheduling different start times for elementary, middle school, and high school students..."

WOW no resources? What is the education like? How many go on to college? What kind of education are they getting?

"...As Scott S pointed out above, this nothing but subsidized child care for parents who aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices when they choose to have children. I'm thinking forced sterilization doesn't look all that bad or onerous."

How about birth control and abortion? Look I am more than willing to subsidize childcare if needed so the parent can work or go to school. That helps everyone in the long run doesn't it?

"Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY"

Thank you for signing your name

Pre K scam?
For quite some time I've been wondering when do kids get to be kids. A friends grandson comes home from 3rd grade with two hours of homework. I stood in line for 2 hours so my grand daughter could get a high application number for preschool(I was 78th. There were people there for over 8 hours).

This is insanity. But what do you do when moms have to work? Who are you going to trust with the safety of your child?

NIP IT! NIP IT IN THE BUD!
As a mother of 2 young adults in college(who are productive,happy Christians)as well as a Nanny to 3 precious girls and care taker of countless other children in the past, this is a topic I'm thrilled John is reporting on. As BARNEY FIFE would say, "NIP IT, JUST NIP IT IN THE BUD" That's what needs to happen to Universal Pre-K--it needs to be stopped before it starts! Young children don't need more school time--they need their mother's time and attention during the day and both their parents in their lives the rest of the time(but not to the point where the children think they are King or Queen of the Castle). I urge all of you who really care about children to read books by Dr. David Elkind. He is author of such books as MISEDUCATION:Preschoolers at Risk
THE HURRIED CHILD
ALL GROWN UP AND NO PLACE TO GO

The MISEDUCATION book was printed in 1987, but is still relevant and needed today. Consider this quote from the cover: "Across the country--in schools and in homes--education programs are being misappropriated for the instruction of preschoolers. Books, lecturers, and the media propagate the idea that only a "superkid" can grow up to compete successfully in the adult world--thereby encouraging parents to teach infants and young children academic and athletic skills. Yet, there is considerable evidence that early instruction can do lasting harm...Dr. Elkind shows us the very real difference between the mind of a preschool child (how it works) and that of a school-age child. He makes clear how much young children can and do learn when they are presented with developmentally appropriate parenting practices and education."

I urge John to get in touch with Dr. Elkind and interview him on 20/20.

Spread the news--Universal Pre K is harmful to the environment--Nip It, Nip It in the Bud!!!


F1etch2
"...US healthcare, on the other hand, is the best in the world as measured by ACTUAL care quality and even accessibility,....(according to the vast majority of studies - and all not peromed by UHC advocacy groups) and the death rates due to rationing as opposed to lack of insurance in the US."

I compliment you on your tap dancing ability. Why does it seem the more words used in convoluted ways the greater likelihood of an attempt to mislead and waffle. Your "facts" are wrong and misleading. We now have more than three quarters of a million patients going abroad for medical care. Accessibility is a major weakness in the US. You should talk to your local doctors and nurses our system is in collapse but I can see why you are in denial

"What was Willie Horton other than an anecdote?"

Unlike YOUR anecdote, which was at ODDS with the research, Willie Horton was an example that was NOT at odds with any research and in fact was a real-world example of the risks of the program."

LMAO quite the contrary even according to John my anecdote was very much in line with the research he poo-pooed

"Are you an elder citizen?"

No. And I am describing CURRENT conditions. There are examples of "top notch state universities and some totally poor private universities" but, as the aggregated data shows, they are the exception and not the rule. Again, anecdotes do not trump the aggregates.

Results DO matter. That is why we are opposed to more government failure."

show data Government does not always fail. And this is the lie you folks hang on. The private sector is fine but hardly the end all and be all. look what they wrought now...

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 9:54 AM EST
Hal's constant canard
"If your apporach was so superior then red states would not be the least educated on average."

The data on educational attainment DOES correlate somewhat with red states over blue states BUT it correlates EVEN BETTER with the level of immigration from less developed nations - primarily the southwest..."

Really how so? Census data shows education in the old south pretty much inshambles

"...OBVIOUSLY, to anyone not blinded by ideology, an influx of individuals with markedly lower educational achievement levels has a vastly greater impact on the results than, say, voting patterns..."

Only if they are not supported by the government and population. Look at Fairfax County VA public schools which have large numbers of immigrants

"...CONTEXT is everything. And the constant reference to the greater educational attainment of blue states is just another example of a liberal conclusion without real-world basis. But, hey, thanks for playing!"

LMAO yes it is and you grasp at straws and cherry pick.

"...The results are that US PUBLIC education by nearly every standard is among the worst in the world..."

US private education is little better and even then cherry picks its students. The problem is a failure of local education. There is where change should probably come



As Soon As They're Toilet Trained
It's yet another expansion of the government educracy's little empire.

First, children needed universal grammar school to get ready for what we now call high school or prep school. Well & good, they ought to be able to read, write, do basic math, & know something about the world by their teens. Are the gov't grammar schools accomplishing this now?
Then every child "needed" to have kindergarten at age 5 to "get ready for" 1st grade.
Now it seems every child allegedly needs an earlier yr of school to "get ready for" the next year.

Can we not agree there's an age before which a child really benefits more being with one or both parents thru the day, not in some sort of school/nursery setting? The studies & experiences other posters have cited indicate this.

Earlier indoctrination; less time with parents.
More gvmt _unionized_ "teaching" jobs.

In NC yrs ago, auditors associated w/ 1 of these type programs in that state dinged a preschool because toy soldiers were found in a sandbox. What kind of politically correct "standards" are we inviting in with the fed$?

I guess babies will at least get to stay with their folks till they're toilet trained for now; US Dept of Ed bureaucrats & NEA/AFT members aren't ready to deal with THAT just yet!

Also
“There really are some top notch state universities and some totally poor private universities i.e. Liberty.”

No one, to my knowledge, argues that all private schools will always be better than all public schools. And, to be honest, most public universities are marginally public. They accept public funds, but have a great deal of autonomy, unlike k-12 public schools. They still have to compete for students, again unlike k-12 public schools. So, the comparison here is a poor one. Personally, I wouldn’t mind shifting to the higher ed model for k-12. In fact, a voucher system for k-12 would likely resemble the current higher education system, although with fewer students traveling across state lines. So, it’s a bit disingenuous to use the example of higher education in this country to buttress arguments concerning k-12 and pre-school.

Anyway, put me down as skeptical that universal pre-school will lead to any significant improvement in educational quality in this country. Not only does it not really address the core problems with education in this country, but it contributes to one of the biggest: cost.

Nonsense
Normally, I don’t comment on here, but when I see nonsense written, I have to speak up:

“The results are that US education and healthcare (both are classic examples) are clearly, by nearly every standard, among the worst in the world.”

Clearly? This is simply not true, and quite frankly, kind of silly. As someone who has actually looked at the data himself, US education, by world standards, is pretty mediocre. Compared to most European countries (who tend to spend more than we do), US education compares pretty favorably for the most part. However, compared to several Asian countries (which tend to spend a great deal less than we do; sometimes as little as 1/3 to1/2 as much per student), US education does not compare favorably. The biggest problem with US education is quite simply that it is expensive, and we really don’t get what we pay for. But it’s not particularly bad by world standards, though it certainly could be better.

As far as healthcare goes, well, I’m not going to comment on that other than to say you’re being ridiculous.

“If your apporach was so superior then red states would not be the least educated on average.”

I don’t think the “approach” suggested here has really been tried in any states, red or blue. And by what criteria do you define “educated”? Also, there are demographic and cultural differences across states and regions that make comparisons difficult. For example, Texas has to deal with immigration. Vermont does not. Furthermore, there is a great deal of variation within states. I could flip your argument on its head and state that conservative areas within states (e.g., suburbs) are likely more “educated” than liberal areas (e.g., inner cities). Regardless, that doesn’t say much about either of our “approaches”. Finally, while some “red states” in the south fair poorly, other “red states” in the west/northwest fair pretty well. See: http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2008/18src.h27.html

A few years back ..
there was a great debate locally about school start times. The limited resources of school busses and drivers meant scheduling different start times for elementary, middle school, and high school students.

It was eventually decided that the younger kids, elementary age would start school around 7 am, and the high schoolers would start around 8:30 am. The justification? High school students needed the extra sleep.

Translation? The younger kids needed their parents to get ready for school and to be sent off to the bus so they had to start earlier to allow parents to get to their respective jobs on time. Older kids are able to get themselves up and on their way (yeah, right!).

As Scott S pointed out above, this nothing but subsidized child care for parents who aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices when they choose to have children. I'm thinking forced sterilization doesn't look all that bad or onerous.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Hal's constant canard
"If your apporach was so superior then red states would not be the least educated on average."

The data on educational attainment DOES correlate somewhat with red states over blue states BUT it correlates EVEN BETTER with the level of immigration from less developed nations - primarily the southwest. OBVIOUSLY, to anyone not blinded by ideology, an influx of individuals with markedly lower educational achievement levels has a vastly greater impact on the results than, say, voting patterns.

CONTEXT is everything. And the constant reference to the greater educational attainment of blue states is just another example of a liberal conclusion without real-world basis. But, hey, thanks for playing!


The results are that US PUBLIC education by nearly every standard is among the worst in the world. US healthcare, on the other hand, is the best in the world as measured by ACTUAL care quality and even accessibility, since rationing of care makes care LESS accessible than lack of insurance in this country (as demonstrated by long waits (according to the vast majority of studies - and all not peromed by UHC advocacy groups) and the death rates due to rationing as opposed to lack of insurance in the US.

"What was Willie Horton other than an anecdote?"

Unlike YOUR anecdote, which was at ODDS with the research, Willie Horton was an example that was NOT at odds with any research and in fact was a real-world example of the risks of the program.

"Are you an elder citizen?"

No. And I am describing CURRENT conditions. There are examples of "top notch state universities and some totally poor private universities" but, as the aggregated data shows, they are the exception and not the rule. Again, anecdotes do not trump the aggregates.

Results DO matter. That is why we are opposed to more government failure.

Public education
is little more than teaching the young to be superficially obedient, deeply socialist indoctrinated consumers. I worked for five long years as a full time substitute for all grades, K-12 and in the alternative school (thugs & thieves warehouse until graduation), so I know much more than one would expect. You see, unlike the regulars who see their school and five, perhaps six classes of students every day, day in and day out, I got to see much behind the curtain and the overall picture. In my experience, the children coming from pre-K were socially indistinguishable from those coming straight from home . . . except those coming from most home environments were better behaved and a surprising number could read far above grade level and do basic math, as well as basic skills like tying shoes, and clean up after themselves; these are things most of the pre-K kids could not do. If there is any advantage to pre-K other than state run child care, I saw no evidence.

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 9:05 AM EST
Finally, agreement
"Money doesn't matter if coupled with incompetence."

PRECISELY! That is why we are so vehemently opposed to government action in preference to the private sector. I mean what better example of the abysmal failure of public education could there possibly be than someone describing the late 60s to the present as "40 years of conservatism". Now THAT'S "incompetence"."

Reaganism took off as the premier philosophy with the election of Reagan as governor in the mid 60's, by the way, at that time CA had the best education system in the world. Conservatism continued to grow as the dominant theory until it crashed the entire economy during the failed bush regime. Government can be extremely competent i.e. the military as the private sector could. Healthcare is a private sector disaster and education is a state public sector disaster. The simple fact is we need balance between sectors.

Stacy
I'm sorry if this sounds cruel, but it strikes me as the epitome of naievity, if not stupidity, for anyone to not understand that becoming part of a government program means you not only accept the money, but you willingly accept the rules which go with the money.

F1etch
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 9:01 AM EST
When will libs learn?
"OK you don't like studies? How about personal anecdote?"

The overwhelming body of research demonstrates the failure of these programs..."

Let's look at results? If your apporach was so superior then red states would not be the least educated on average. You cannot get around this at all. Results not philosophy matter. The results are that US education and healthcare (both are classic examples) are clearly, by nearly every standard, among the worst in the world.

"...But the fact remains, ANECDOTES ARE USELESS as a response to research and statistcal data ... always ... without exception ... in every case..."

Oh no anecdotes put a face and reality to claims. What was Willie Horton other than an anecdote?

"...Private schools and the university system (which still adheres to market forces) are far superior to government schooling here AND abroad."

Are you an elder citizen? That may have once been the case no longer. There really are some top notch state universities and some totally poor private universities i.e. Liberty. Red states, especially in the South, are littered with private schools of all types and again with poor results. Results matter.

John
If you run for President, I will vote for you.




Finally, agreement
"Money doesn't matter if coupled with incompetence."

PRECISELY! That is why we are so vehemently opposed to government action in preference to the private sector. I mean what better example of the abysmal failure of public education could there possibly be than someone describing the late 60s to the present as "40 years of conservatism". Now THAT'S "incompetence".

When will libs learn?
"OK you don't like studies? How about personal anecdote?"

The overwhelming body of research demonstrates the failure of these programs. It isn't that the ONLY study performed has such a small sample size; it is that that the study with the tiny sample size was cherry-picked because it said what advocates wanted to hear.

But the fact remains, ANECDOTES ARE USELESS as a response to research and statistcal data ... always ... without exception ... in every case. So why keep bringing them up? The only time anecdotes are ever of any value are as a contrary example when presented with an absolute: someone says "this is always the case" and the response is "I had the opposite experience". In this case, not only are there myriad anecdotes of the ineffectiveness of such programs, there are just as many success stories among people who never entered pre-school.

The reason for the failure of education in this country is the PUBLIC (government) school system that is even MORE socialized than in most other countries (many of which have school choice). Private schools and the university system (which still adheres to market forces) are far superior to government schooling here AND abroad.

I have a better Idea,
let's let kids be kids.

Serapis1997
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 7:49 AM EST
You are deranged
Hal, Where do you people come from? I hardly know where to begin to combat such ignorance. The US has been systematically "investing" in our children for decades, in fact, that's the only strategy known to people like you, spend more money on the kids!.."

Guess what just like our healthcare it is a disaster. Money doesn't matter if coupled with incompetence. That is what 40 years of conservatism has done. There is not one sector of our nation doesn't need to be rebuilt and designed. This is not a left/right issue it is a fact. But on the question of pre K? We need it and we need it right

"...I absolutely agree that we are falling behind but it sure is not because of lack of spending on education..."

nor on healthcare it is how we spend it. Look at education as a rule the red states are the least educated so no answer there. The question is how do we fix it? I am beginning to think that it may well be time to take education off the states.

"...The gov't does a miserable job at K-12 education so by all means, lets put the same incompetents in charge of pre-K. Unbelievable."

What governments? Local government

Lie, lie, lie and more lies!
I thought the Clinton Regime could lie! This administration rolls out one whopper after another, hour after after hope, day after day.

We're being inundated with distortions, half-truths, innuendo and populist rhetoric. The electorate doesn't even know the definition of these words, much less understand how they're being manipulated.

Witness the Joe Pollack/Barnie Frank dust up. The stupid audience was cheering Old Barnie Boy instead of an obviously intelligent law student who was SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER! When did the voters fall in behind the corruptocrats? This country used to be skeptical and critical of any politico, especially when they had a track record like Rep. Frank. Now they just roll over, pant, drool, and hope, hope, HOPE for a hand job.


Not me - see you at the Tea Party.

Extension of failed programs
Universal Pre-K is nothing but an extension of our failig public school system - and it boils down to 'free' daycare for working or non-working moms

Justin
"Date: Apr 8, 2009 - 7:44 AM EST
Hal
Time for me to call BS on that. The UK didn't have computerized classrooms in the 1980s (not that computerizing soft studies will actually improve the quality of graduates), they've barely got a computer presence today."

1980, the village was Honington, Suffolk, Englnd. The computers were sinclairs. When I was with the RAF it was pretty clear that their average enlisted man was better educated than ours. Note I said better educated not smarter. They could be more selective granted but the state of our basic education does hurt our competitiveness.

"...And Argentina, a nation that managed to destroy its entire banking system via regulations, isn't exactly a great example. If emulating with Argentina is "falling behind", I'm glad we're falling behind..."

I said that their kids (at least middle class kids) were getting a better education than ours. You know this is not an all or nothing situation. We can accept good ideas wherever we find them. I mention Argentina PRECISELY because even if it is a second world nation at best, its children are being educated better than our own

Self Perpetuating Failure
If you like Head Start, you'll love universal preK!

Head Start was supposed to level the playing field and raise achievement for low income children. Supposedly, this would result in those kids growing up and valuing education enough to pass those values on to the next generation so that those parents would teach their kids in the home. Instead, like every other government program, it is a self perpetuating money pit --- kids who come out of the program show no lasting results and learn that sense of entitlement at tax payer expense from an early age.

If Head Start did what it was supposed to do, it would succeed itself out of existence. No chance of that happening anytime soon.

I work in the public school system, so I have first hand experience with the results of the head start program, both with recent graduates of it as well as their parents who also went through it as children. The results speak for themselves!

The education system.......
is one program where where the government can claim success. Their stated goal was to provide equality in the education process and they have succeeded on a grande scale. It is now ALL bad.

Education standards went south when the primary purpose of the schools became social engineering and government indoctrination. We are now harvesting the results with a generation of young people who proved in the last election that they could be convinced to supply the rope for their own hanging....and they did.

Government is a Fat-Fingered Lummox
Nothing requires more finesse than raising a newborn or toddler. Now the government, fat fingers and all, wants to force particular outcomes for such an endeavor.

When will people stop worshiping the federal government and recognize it as the pro wrestler it is? There's an idea for regulation--require all TV stations to broadcast WWF, where GOVERNMENT is tatooed on all the performers.

Choice and competition
as Nam65-66 says, is the key to good schools. Actually, its the key to quality in almost everything. Its the key to why the American economy passed up earlier, more static European economies. It is why less regulated economies like Hong Kong and Singapore are more prosperous. As we regulate more and more, it is why we will decline.

Teaching the very young can have excellent results, but social devleopment is extremely important. I taught my kids to read when they were 4. My daughter was reading at 6th grade level before she was 6. My son probably was too, but the maverick refused to cooperate with any testing. Still true, by the way. :-D

No thanks
You know what 3 and 4 year old children need? Loving parents who spend time with them, enrich them through reading and play. They need time to explore and experience the world so that their imaginations grow. They certainly don't need to be in government directed programs.

My children (now adults) attended preschool. Three mornings a week for the 3 year olds, five for the 4 year olds, a couple of hours at a time. We evaluated several programs and selected one run by a local Lutheran church that best fit our family's standards and values. The teachers were responsive to our needs because we were paying for it. The market works.

This is just another power grab aimed at decreasing the influence of parents over the developing beliefs and attitudes of their children.

You are deranged
Hal, Where do you people come from? I hardly know where to begin to combat such ignorance. The US has been systematically "investing" in our children for decades, in fact, that's the only strategy known to people like you, spend more money on the kids! Thats why, on average, US public schools spend in excess of $11,000 per student, far exceeding that of other nations that consistently outperform us and far more than was spent in the past in adjusted dollars. At the same time, parochial schools do far better using much less. Why? Competition amongst schhols, discipline for students, hiring teachers that perform and firing those who don't, all things that are absent in a govt system.

I absolutely agree that we are falling behind but it sure is not because of lack of spending on education. The gov't does a miserable job at K-12 education so by all means, lets put the same incompetents in charge of pre-K. Unbelievable.

Hal
Time for me to call BS on that. The UK didn't have computerized classrooms in the 1980s (not that computerizing soft studies will actually improve the quality of graduates), they've barely got a computer presence today. And Argentina, a nation that managed to destroy its entire banking system via regulations, isn't exactly a great example. If emulating with Argentina is "falling behind", I'm glad we're falling behind.

Hope this isn't a repeat
to read such informative courteous posts. If any here are retired, let me urge you to volunteer to help in schools. I started as a volunteer, got hired part time, and am now used primarily as a tutor for children who are obviously ahead or behind their grade, and benefit from tutoring specifically aimed at their level. I work at a public charter school, and volunteer at my teacher wife's county public school. Until you have heard 40 first graders belt out Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA, you have heard nothing. Not a single listener had a dry eye.

Adolf Hitler,Lenin,and Obama
All want(ed) to get ahold of kids while their minds are plastic and moldable.
If we think to our founding fathers who spent their childhoods helpng their families, hunting, fishing, and, exploring and didn't go to school till later in their lives and their parents taught them right from wrong and their "letters and sums."

It's simple reasoning to let parents and kids be... don't force their minds to be molded into mini-Hitlers and Obama's.

What a pleasure
to read such informative courteous posts. If any here are retired, let me urge you to volunteer to help in schools. I started as a volunteer, got hired part time, and am now used primarily as a tutor for children who are obviously ahead or behind their grade, and benefit from tutoring specifically aimed at their level. I work at a public charter school, and volunteer at my teacher wife's county public school. Until you have heard 40 first graders belt out Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA, you have heard nothing. Not a single listener had a dry eye.

John you are way off base
"... But we keep hearing that investment in pre-K will pay off later. Obama says, "For every dollar we invest in these programs, we get nearly $10 back in reduced welfare rolls, fewer health costs and less crime."

Those glowing statistics come from tiny studies (58 children) of places like Michigan's Perry Preschool. "

OK you don't like studies? How about personal anecdote? My children started school in Europe at the ages of three and four. In 1980, my youngest at four started in a small British village school. Each student had a computer on their desk and was using it daily by the end of the school year (yes, I said 1980). As a nation, we are falling WAY behind the rest of the world because were are wasting talent and time. Oh yes, both my granddaughter and grandson started school at THREE in Argentina. It helps the child, the family and society. If you don't want to invest in our children and our country's future that is fine but say why and don't hide behind denial.

scott s.
Same with me in the 1980s. We played a lot, slept, ate snacks then went home. I did most of my learning at home when my parents got home from work. I was reading at what the Los Angeles public school system called a "third grade" level when I finished kintergarten. Apparently I was "gifted", and I'll be the first to admit that while I do pick things up quickly, I'm no gifted individual.

The public school system is a joke. If you actually want to learn anything, you have to do it on your own time. This goes from pre-K through 12, and even through most of college undergrad from my experience in it all. Public education in general is a scam, pay for it but you need to do all the work after the fact.

Universal PreK
My church had a very successful and popular Nursery School for over 40 years. A few years ago our school district started a PreK program. Because the school district had a limited amount of space they only offered the program to low income families. They didn't like the results of the class make up with all low income kids in one class so the next year they had a lottery for all of the eligable 4 year old children in town. This plan took students away from our program and my church's nursery school program began to suffer financially. The school district wanted to have a universal preschool program for every four year old in town but needed more classrooms so they asked my church to become their universal PreK program. We thought that this was the answer to our problem. The program has temporarily saved us but they are consistently threatening to take it away if we do not do everything that they want. We also have a day care center at my church and the district is insisting that we offer wrap care for these UPK children at a huge discount so that every parent can afford to have their child at our center. UPK is only 2 1/2 hours per day but the kids need to come in early and stay later because their parents work. Day care is expensive and the school district wants us to charge about half of what it really costs for us to care for these children all day. We are a non profit center and can not subsidize these children. Also, if the state decides to cut the program, we will have to rebuild our nursery school from scratch. I have learned form experience that government intervention is never a good thing.

Sending children to public school...
...borders on child abuse.I think all schools should be private.Take the tax money spent on public schools and give it to the parents to select their own schools.Let the market place decide,just as we do in many other sphere's of our life.Am I over simplifying?

A step towards Brave New World
Pre-K just moves us further down the road to eliminating the role of parents. It is just an attempt to begin the indoctrination sooner and give "free" childcare to the parents.

A 4 year old is a fountain of energy, they can not do well in a school environmnet, unless they are loaded up with Ritalin. Heck my teenagers complain about how long and boring is HS.

Now perhaps if they were able to cull of the truly bright ones, the potential star atlethics and give them special educations and training, that would be a differnt story. Instead they just turn out more and more of barely educated sheeple.

Hey China and India can do this, why can't we. At least Brave New World had the alphas, we just get nothing but the betas!

Pre-school or Department of Hatcheries
The way to upgrade children in the slums or spoilt by rotten parenting (Paris Hilton; Brittney Spears) is to remove them from their dysfunctional homes and raise them in good orphanages until they can be placed in functional homes with parents who know which end the diapers go on.

Leave the rest of the kids alone.

My youngest sister went to kindergarten at age 4 when Mama simply had to go to work because it was that or starve. The rest of us started school at 6 and she says to this day that it made a really big difference. Of course in those days the neighbourhood was seething with normal children (ethnic Germans and Italians mostly) and there was a lot for us to do.

Gov't paid baby sitter
Is what it really is. Of course the Gov't wants its hands on your kid so that he can be properly indoctrinated.

Here they changed the age for Kindergarten from 4 to 5 (essentially, held everyone back a year -- and I keep hearing how much smarter kids are today!). So now they want "pre-K" for 4-year olds. When I was a kid , all you had to learn in Kindergarten was how to nap and eat a snack. Now they have a huge list of all the "competencies" kids are supposed to have. Makes me think kids should be geniuses when they graduate from high school, yet they all have to take remedial subjects in college?

Unfortunately...
the self-interest of government creates a one-way bias for government action. Nobody would ever recommend we do away with compulsory and public education altogether. If everybody had to pay for their own (or their dependents') education, there would arise a competitive market for educational services and each of us could choose from "Wal-Mart" to "Neiman-Marcus" and everything in between in terms of schools. It also eliminates the worries about extra-curricular activities, creationism vs evolution, corporal punishment, year-around school calendars, dress codes, and all the other things that todays students are limited by government schools to one choice. Competiton wouldn't just deliver better academics for less cost, but it would offer choices on all elements of the educational experience with the consumers deciding which is best rather than some non-accountable government bureaucracy.

It's like Lenin
"Give me a boy at 12 years of age and he's mine for life!!" THAT'S Komrade O'Vomit for you.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!

Indoctrinate, indoctrinate, indoctrinate
Liberals are not born. It takes a lot of education to become that functionally stupid..

It's part of President Obama's plan to
a) make families more reliant on government
b) initiate the brain washing process earlier
c) spend money helping 'the children' (hint: anytime any politician suggests any legislation to 'help the children'... rest assured it has nothing to do with the children and everything to do with getting brownie points from voters.

The Love of Karl Marx is the Root of All
Evil

"It's part of President Obama's massive spending plans.

His "stimulus" bill includes an Early Learning Challenge Grant to encourage states to "Develop a cutting-edge plan to raise the quality of your early learning programs"
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