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Wednesday, February 18, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Real Jobs Create Wealth
by John Stossel
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So President Obama got his stimulus bill. For a mere $787 billion, he has pledged to "save or create" 3.5 million jobs. That's only $224,857 and change per job! (If I still have my job next year, will he take credit for saving it?)

But wait. Only 3.5 million jobs? Why so few? It's not like creating jobs is difficult.

Egypt built more than 100 pyramids beginning sometime in the third millennium B.C. to house the corpses of the pharaohs and their significant others. Think of all the jobs that project created. I'll bet the unemployment rate was something any pharaoh could have proudly campaigned for reelection on -- if he faced election, that is. Pyramid building is one heck of a public-works project.

Its economic significance was not lost on that great advocate of full employment through public works, John Maynard Keynes. The British economist, so in vogue today, famously wrote in "The General Theory" (1936), "Pyramid-building, earthquakes, even wars may serve to increase wealth".

In fact, pyramids are even better than the usual government project. Keynes said: "Two pyramids . . . are twice as good as one; but not so two railways from London to York."

Ancient Egypt's success has many applications today. We could have full employment overnight if the government simply outlawed machines. Today's 7 percent unemployment rate would vanish.

Again, we find an endorsement in Keynes's "General Theory": "'To dig holes in the ground,' paid for out of savings, will increase, not only employment, but the real national dividend of useful goods and services".

Exhibit B is Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I don't mean his public-works projects, like the Civilian Conservation Corps. I'm talking about his most serious job-creating operation: the draft.

In September 1940, Roosevelt signed the Selective Act, which ordered all males 21-35 to register for military service. "Of the 16 million persons who served in the armed forces at some time during the war, 10 million were conscripted, and many of those who volunteered did so only to avoid the draft ... " writes Robert Higgs in "Depression, War and Cold War."

The draft marked the beginning of the end to the double-digit unemployment that had plagued America for a decade. Two years earlier, Roosevelt's treasury secretary, Henry Morgenthau, lamented, "[A]fter eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started". The draft was the answer they had sought all that time.

So creating jobs is not difficult for government. What is difficult for government is creating jobs that produce wealth. Pyramids, holes in the ground and war do not produce wealth. They destroy wealth. They take valuable resources and convert them into something less valuable.

Instead of iPods, great art, cures for diseases and machines that replace back-breaking work, we get the equivalent of digging holes and filling them up.

Under President Obama's "stimulus" plan, jobs will be created to weatherize buildings, construct schools and wind turbines, and repair roads and bridges. But outside the market process, there is no way to know whether those are better uses of scarce capital than whatever would have been produced had it been left in the private economy.

Since government services are paid for through the compulsion of taxes, they have no market price. But without market prices, we have no way of knowing the importance that free people would place on those services versus other things they want.

So although we'll see the government putting people to work and even some new schools and bridges, we won't be able to calculate how much wealth we've lost because scarce resources were misallocated by the politicians.

Nevertheless, we can be sure we will have lost. If the government's projects were truly worthwhile, they would be undertaken by private efforts, and in their quest for profits, entrepreneurs would handle them more efficiently.

Remember this when President Obama begins to boast about how successful his stimulus plan is.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Full employment in USSR
Hire three men. Thier job? Move a wheelbarrow full of bricks across a room. One man to move it and two to sit on either end of the room to make sure he moves it. Each of the two men report to supervisors, who themselves are supervised. How about we create popcorn makers : one to hold the pan and four top shake the stove. Or better yet. One to put it in the microwave and 20 to sit there and watch it pop. Or why even have them there? Why not just say they have jobs and let them not come to work?





Yes...this is a great idea....
"The draft was the answer they had sought all that time."

This "ME" generation must earn their freedom.....lol...like so many of their brothers in arms before them.......

Wealth Producers
I want pharmaceutical companies to make a boat-load of money on drugs they manufacture as one day they might hit upon the cure for Parkinson's Disease. Wouldn't that be fantastic?

Yes, it would be fantastic, but the reality is it will never occur as drug companies are being viewed as 'corporate America' that is to be done away with.

Pres. Obama sounds too good to be true and we are finding out this is actually true.

Obama's porkulus plan
takes dead aim at small businesses--you know, the one's that provide 75% of the jobs in America.

Brilliant!!

What a great plan!
First, attack companies who want to go to a nice location to reward their people who contributed to whatever success they had last year (think Las Vegas). So LV is in the dumps because Obama trashed the place.

Along comes Harry and Nancy with a massive pork project to run a high speed train from Disneyland to LV.

Brilliant!!

The way I see it...
these Dems are so driven by ideology... or maybe it's just pure selfishness, that they honestly don't care about getting the nation's economy on-track. $460 mil for overseas abortions? $50 mil to the Nat'l Endowment of the Arts? I think $150 mil to the Smithsonian? $30 mil for wild mice in Pelosi's district?!? Good grief! Does this sound like the product of people who genuinely care about jump-starting the economy? Exactly how does a slew of government contracts (for the $550 bil that is actually going to be used to hire people for infrastructure projects) stimulate the private sector? This seems to be more about a socialistic, big-gov't vision where Uncle Sam dictates the direction of the economy, decides the nature of the available jobs and keeps economic power in Washington as opposed to the private sector. There is where the economy really needs to be stimulated.

All these Congressmen care about, it seems to me, is permanently maintaining power so they can socially re-engineer the country and further their crazy, far-left agenda (since the Democratic Party has moved further to the Left). How can they accomplish that Orwellian task? By providing amnesty for 15 mil illegal aliens plus the remaining 30 or 40 mil family members still in Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia, Senegal, Ireland, etc. Most of them, being poor, will vote Democratic. California's now Dem-dominance is a vivid case-in-point.

Hey people, Illinois and California may be visions of America's future!

So the pyramids...
...were just ancient "shovel-ready" projects?

One business that ought to prosper in all of this: Shovel Manufacturing. And it's good to know that all this money that we're paying to the Religion of Education, is going to eventually pay off. What's the going rate for a Shovel Tech with a four year degree?

Mexico should be thankful to Obama. Reports are, that the number of illegals entering the country is on the decline and some already here are moving back. This is not good for the Mexican economy. But if they'll hang on for a couple more years when these emergency stimulus and "shovel-ready" jobs get going, things will start to pick up for them.

And the illegal workers will have Universal Health Care by then. Just like the Cubans.

Save?? Three Million Jobs?
I suppose if three million Americans have jobs next year--those will be the ones Obama's stimulus bill saved.


Civilian Defense Service
Barack Obama and Rahm Emanuel have both said how they plan to get the United States back up to full employment. It's the Civilian Defense Service. It will be better armed and larger then the United States military. Rahm Emanuel has publicly said that every U.S. citizen between the ages of 18 and 25 will serve three months of basic training. Then what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxemEZZj-J8

The Civilian Defense Service is at the heart of this government's plan for full employment.

Brown shirts anyone?

Taking aim at small businesses
Joe America, exactly! No one's even mentioned the unemployment provisions that will force small businesses to pay unemployment to part=time employees or anyone who wants to leave to care for a sick family member (no specification on how sick, or how long). Oh, and women who need to move to escape abusive partners. Unemployment used to be reserved for people who lost their job through no fault of their own, but now you can decide to leave and still get paid. So what if it costs the small business exponentially more in unemployment tax? Aren't all "businesses" bottomless fonts of money greedily being kept from the deserving poor?

The ACORN doesn't fall far from the tree
to WILLIAM...
Regarding the soon to be GREEN SHIRTS...

I paid no attention when they were going door to door dragging the radio talk show hosts out into the street....

I paid no attention when they were going door to door dragging the gun owners out....

I paid no attention when they were going door to door dragging the white male Conservatives out.....

I paid no attention when they were going door to door dragging the small business owners out......

I paid no attention when they were going door to door dragging the...... WHUPS!! NOW they are coming for me!

Why DIDN'T I stand up before they got so strong they couldn't be stopped?



Severing Values From Valuer
"Pyramids, holes in the ground and war do not produce wealth."
Wealth and more importantly, it is Values that a living, breathing, human being needs for survival that absolutely needs to be defined.
Wealth is not a common "collective", precisely because its underlying reality that many people choose to evade is that it stands for Values to an distinct, individual human being.
Because the metaphysical reality of man is such that he has to produce the values that are required for his survival, it is reality and reason that is blatantly ignored and evaded by severing that all important tie.
Under a Communism it is likely that a Work Czar will choose the kind of work citizens will do. Therefore it is likely that under such circumstances a Van Gogh may be sent to the Milk Factory, since that is what the collective has decided is where he will best serve in producing "wealth". In his lifetime his art was never recognized so it is very plausible to think that under communism his neighbors would think an able bodied man is not "creating enough wealth" and therefore should be sent to the Milk factory.
But would that be just or fair?
It is only by bringing the relation of wealth, i.e. values to its valuer, does it have any meaning.
Otherwise there will always be dictators of all sizes and flavors available at any given time more than ready to dispose of your values,i.e. your life for you!

Severing Values From Valuer
"Pyramids, holes in the ground and war do not produce wealth."
Wealth and more importantly, it is Values that a living, breathing, human being needs for survival that absolutely needs to be defined.
Wealth is not a common "collective", precisely because its underlying reality that many people choose to evade is that it stands for Values to an distinct, individual human being.
Because the metaphysical reality of man is such that he has to produce the values that are required for his survival, it is reality and reason that is blatantly ignored and evaded by severing that all important tie.
Under a Communism it is likely that a Work Czar will choose the kind of work citizens will do. Therefore it is likely that under such circumstances a Van Gogh may be sent to the Milk Factory, since that is what the collective has decided is where he will best serve in producing "wealth". In his lifetime his art was never recognized so it is very plausible to think that under communism his neighbors would think an able bodied man is not "creating enough wealth" and therefore should be sent to the Milk factory.
But would that be just or fair?
It is only by bringing the relation of wealth, i.e. values to its valuer, does it have any meaning.
Otherwise there will always be dictators of all sizes and flavors available at any given time more than ready to dispose of your values,i.e. your life for you!

Jobs
Mr.Stossel,
If only Congress and the President had a very small portion of your common sense we would have been on our way to a recovery already.

I can't wait to get my shovel, it sure will be different from my desk job and coversations with my co-workers will be enlightning.

How will we know
if Obama's porkulous plan is working??? He is proclaiming a web site we can go to see the projects and how they progress as well as jobs saved and created. Somehow, I think believing what I read will require a "willing suspension of disbelief". A job has been saved. How can this be known???Even now the White House is downplaying the number of jobs that will be created or saved.

No time for reflection
Would it have really hurt to slow down and think carefully about the kinds of businesses the US will need for future prosperity and then invest in them instead of in parks, pools and running paths.

For instance, how about positioning the US to be a world leader in medicine, research and technology.

COMRADES

Comrades, this is your shovel, you dig here and you will enjoy it and I insist that you be happy or you will be reported to Commandant Pelosi!


Here is the error
"...Nevertheless, we can be sure we will have lost. If the government's projects were truly worthwhile, they would be undertaken by private efforts, and in their quest for profits, entrepreneurs would handle them more efficiently..."

Simply not true. Some growth simply will not happen because it is not in the interest of private interests to accomplish especially when labor is dirt cheap. Highways, schools etc simply should be common effort. I look around me now at New Deal projects, buildings, scenic trails, overlooks, dams and walls, none of which would have ever been built through private interests alone. Government has been involved in everything from opening the Ohio frontier in Washington's day and the transcontinental railroad and NY state with the Erie Canal.

As was so aptly demonstrated when conservatives crashed the economy; the private sector is no more capable of being left unsupervised than the government. Relying only on an unregulated private sector is as quick a road to third world status as relying solely on uncontrolled government is to a state economy and dictatorship.

Hal
There you go again with that 'unsupervised economy' leftist crap. Do you really say this with a straight face?

Shall I post the video of the Bush administration officials trying to convince Democrats in Congress for more oversight in Fannie/Freddie? You do realize the healthcare industry is probably the most regulated business in America?

Step out of the fantasy world you live in. Those people in DC have NO CLUE how to run anything bigger than a bar-b-Que.

Hal Donahue
Oddly, "conservatives" were unable to crash the economy until the Democrat takeover of Congress. After 6 years of 3% per year growth under the not-so-conservative President Bush and his Republican congress, 2 years of talking down the economy succeeded in...bringing the economy down.

After years and years of forcing lenders to issue loans to "the poor"--anyone who would NOT, under normal lending policies, receive a loan, and after years of Barney Frank insisting there was no need for more regulation of those who bought those toxic loans (Fannie and Freddie), voila!, the mortgage meltdown. Who WAS in control of the Banking Committee when all this failure finally occurred? Uh, I can't remember and it has never been mentioned by the MSM.

And let's not forget my favorite, Charles Schumer (D-NY), when he announced in the N.Y. Times that IndyMac was about to collapse. Can you believe it, there was a RUN on IndyMac and sure 'nuff, IndyMac collapsed!!!

And there you have: the private sector doesn't work, capitalism is a failure, Obama, the Democrat Congress and Big Government Porkulus are the only answers.

Proof that it was Dem-caused? NO demands by the congressional-investigation-happy Dem congress that the cause of all this failure be investigated. (But there ARE a number of Dems who want to investigate the "war crimes" of the Bush administration. Yeah, that'll help.)

ACORN
Four to five billion dollars is being provided to ACORN in the stimulus bill. Now we can have an organization, full of fraud, acquiring taxpayer dollars to cheat in elections. Only in America can criminal activity pay off.

John
I see "Townhall" had another of it's famous "Idiot" conventions this weekend. Any "Wealthy" person will tell you; Making your wealth is easy,it's keeping it that makes the challenge. Our economy is trying to "Hold" onto it's wealth. Listen up "Stupid". A man has a "Yacht" and while sailing one day, it springs a leak. The man tries as hard as he can to stop the leak but it only increases. Moral of the story; He has a very expensive asset but once damaged,it's just another "Boat". Asked someone in Japan for the Translation. You Americans just don't understand? So SADDDDD.

John
I see "Townhall" had another of it's famous "Idiot" conventions this weekend. Any "Wealthy" person will tell you; Making your wealth is easy,it's keeping it that makes the challenge. Our economy is trying to "Hold" onto it's wealth. Listen up "Stupid". A man has a "Yacht" and while sailing one day, it springs a leak. The man tries as hard as he can to stop the leak but it only increases. Moral of the story; He has a very expensive asset but once damaged,it's just another "Boat". Asked someone in Japan for the Translation. You Americans just don't understand? So SADDDDD.

Polly /Davidm
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 9:15 AM EST
Hal Donahue
Oddly, "conservatives" were unable to crash the economy until the Democrat takeover of Congress. After 6 years of 3% per year growth under the not-so-conservative President Bush and his Republican congress, 2 years of talking down the economy succeeded in...bringing the economy down..."

This deep recession started at least 18 months ago do the math. The unregulated private sector crashed and burned. Blaming the Democratic Party is laughable. Just listen to Bush 04 campaign ads bragging about creating the largest number of home owners in history. An unregulated economy will crash. Both parties are to blame but the conservatives bear the brunt; it is an article of their faith and they had the power.

The Spendulus/Porkulus/Payback Bill
Useless Jobs created by Useless Legislation which was created by our USELESS President. At least Barry the Stoner is consistent! LMAO! HIC!

FAIL OBAMA 2009-2012

Excellent Article!
I am amazed that John Stossel is allowed to speak the truth and still be employed by ABC. He is neither a fascist or a communist. Why have they not terminated him?

After Obama gets rid of Rush Limbaugh, John Stossel will be next on the list. He has great courage. I pray he will not be sent to the concentration camps.

tax reform
You cannot convince a person or a corporation to start a new business or expand an existing business, increase jobs, and hire new employees, when you tax away the operating capitol he is using to operate his PRESENT business
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay.

William #9
Dumbo's Gestapo will have Moooslim terrorists as officers and Mexican illegal aliens as foot soldiers.

Polly yes, Hal no
Poor Hal, asking us to do math for him! Let me help you Hal: 18 months ago was Aug. 2007. The Dims took over Congress in Jan. 2007, so "this deep recession" occured 7 months AFTER the Dims took control of Congress.

Great post, Polly! Keep up the good work.

Tacitus X
Thanks. Sadly, it's apparent that Hal doesn't realize that CONGRESS does the spending AND the regulating. But that's okay, most voters are in the same boat.

I bet Hal doesn't realize that Obama, in CONGRESS, voted FOR the bank bailout, the apparent failure of which he's now blaming on Bush. Maybe "Bush lied"?

Slave labor
Like the liberal that he was, Keynes left out an essential fact when bragging about the Pyramids as an example of government creating jobs through public works projects.

The Pyramids were built with slave labor.

So I guess the Pyramids provided you with a good job if you were a slave (although I doubt very seriously that OSHA would have approved of the working conditions).

And there were no permanent jobs working in the Pyramids after they were built because the Pyramids didn't produce anything. There were no jobs manufacturing, shipping, purchasing, hiring, firing, marketing, or selling. Once they were built there were no jobs for the laborers who built them unless another pharoah wanted a monument/tomb for himself and his family.

Did a Pyramid create any real wealth? Good question. One could argue that a chunk of real estate in Egypt would be worth a lot more if it had a Pyramid on it than if it was just another piece of empty desert. But who are you going to sell it to? And if you can't sell it, what is it really worth?

Polly
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 10:49 AM EST
Tacitus X
Thanks. Sadly, it's apparent that Hal doesn't realize that CONGRESS does the spending AND the regulating. But that's okay, most voters are in the same boat..."

Only thing is the president does the proposing and the leading in reality. Blame congress all you like as a sound bite but know reality is different

"...I bet Hal doesn't realize that Obama, in CONGRESS, voted FOR the bank bailout, the apparent failure of which he's now blaming on Bush. Maybe "Bush lied"?"

Sure he did. Something had to be done and done then or Ron's operating capital above would have disappeared. The problem with the bail out was the failed past regime was unable to properly execute

For loco1936
Good post.

Technically, every job that still exists is a job that has been "saved". That means we could continue losing jobs under the porkulus bill and the Obamites will still have a virtually unlimited reservoir of jobs they can claim were "saved".

There is nothing honest about this guy.

We need more crime
Yep. More crime = more jobs for cops, lawyers, judges, prison staff, etc. and those in prison are not competing for jobs.

That is the kind of idiocy that would appeal to those who favor the stick-it-to-us package.

For The Cyclist
Re: Stem cell research.

From Rush Limbaugh, yesterday:

""Adult Stem Cell Research Reverses Effects of Parkinson's Disease in Human Trial." This is in Los Angeles. "Scientists have published a paper in a medical journal describing the results of the world's first clinical trial using autologous neural stem cells for the treatment of Parkinson's disease. A leading bioethics watchdog says the results show more money should be put behind adult stem cells. UCLA researchers published their results in February issue of the Bentham Open Stem Cell Journal," we have a subscription to it, "which outlines the long term results of the trial. 'We have documented the first successful adult neural stem cell transplantation to reverse the effects of Parkinson's disease and demonstrated the long term safety and therapeutic effects of this approach,' says lead author Dr. Michel Levesque.""

This is a prime example of how politics interferes with progress. The left insists we have to have research on embryonic stem cells because it promotes their abortion agenda. This diverts money away from research on adult stem cells, which actually shows promise and gets positive results.

wiseone
Location: MI
Reply # 31
Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 11:00 AM EST
Slave labor
Like the liberal that he was, Keynes left out an essential fact when bragging about the Pyramids as an example of government creating jobs through public works projects.

The Pyramids were built with slave labor..."

Absolutely wrong. The were built by average citizens. There was a religious component too

"...And there were no permanent jobs working in the Pyramids after they were built because the Pyramids didn't produce anything..."

Not true again. Maintenance, priests, etc
you need a decent history book

Hal Donahue
offers, " The unregulated private sector crashed and burned."

"An unregulated economy will crash."

Don't you mean under regulated Hal? We have never had an unregulated economy. Well, maybe a couple of months at the very beginning. I think it would be fair to say that the economy was relatively unregulated for the first hundred years or so although never, ever completely unregulated. The vast bureaucracy we see today really got going after the turn of the century and primarily thanks to the income tax. FDR tried to turn us into a socialist country in the 1930s. Thank goodness he croaked before the war ended. Since that time it has only gotten worse and worse. Why don't you claim the oceans contain no water? It is just as plausible as saying this economy is unregulated.

Unfortunately for the country and its inhabitants, your ilk will not be happy until everything under the sun is completely regulated and prosperity stops and regresses. That is the plan of your fearless leader. The only creatures I have seen that can have their cake and eat it too are the gorillas at the zoo. You see them eat and re eat the same food over and over. Perfect analogy to a liberal.

wiseone
Location: MI
Reply # 35
Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 11:20 AM EST
For The Cyclist
Re: Stem cell research.

From Rush Limbaugh, yesterday:..."

Limbaugh is an entertainer and defacto leader of the Republican Party nothing else certainly not a news credit. Although the story may well be reputable but who is to know?

"'''''This is a prime example of how politics interferes with progress....."

It is but in the opposite of what you mean. Government should not have allowed religious beliefs to interfere with medical research and science. That is why nearly the entire field has moved abroad.

Killer
Making wealth is not easy. It's called hard work. The man with the yahct sails to shore and has it fixed. It's a "yacht" again. Jeeesh, I seriously wonder about the mindset of anyone who calls everyone else an idiot and stupid.

Hal Donahue
Ahh, the pyramids were built by "average citizens." Of course, the average citizens WERE slaves.

Soon Obama will have turned all of us "average citizens" into slaves--in his service. Then all will be well.

Will minimum wage laws apply to pyramid maintenance? And just how much maintenance does stone require?

If Obama REALLY wants to create lasting jobs, perhaps he will have the slaves build a sand monument in his image. That will take lots of maintenance and create long-lasting jobs. Way to grow an economy!!!

This column
just makes so much sense -- common sense.

JOBS
HAR HAR- Thats fine but the attitude anymore is I don't have to work and I can have some Gringo do it for me while I set at home drawing my welfare check,dring my beer, smoking pot,waiting for OB1 one to rescue me with a fat stimulous check!Oh yeah and watching Springer, Oprah,and Degenerette on the couch;after I get up at noon,because I watched trash till 3am.

Pyramids
You gotta love Stossel. If you love freedom, you gotta hate Keynes. Let's just put all the people needing jobs to work building a pyramid for Obama. When the economy contracts and produces more unemployed due to the wasteful spending, we can just build another one. A perfect cycle leading to nothing for everyone.

I am sure Hal and his ilk can find the right balance of regulation that will keep just enough people employed producing food to feed the pyramid builders. A nice little closed perfectly regulated system that produces jobs for everyone as long as everyone is happy spending their entire life eating, sleeping, and building Obama's pyramid.

Hal
10,000 to 50,000 to build a pyramind. 500 to maintain it and supply it with priests/priestesses. Maybe you need to read a little more of Herodotus

Jobs
Har har

Why work when you can let some one from Mex come up and do it while you sit at home drawing your welfare check,waiting for your fat stimulous check, to come in to bail your lazy rear out while you lay on the couch,drinking beer,smokin pot,watchin Springer and Oprah.That seeems to be the attitude of many!

Hitchhiker
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 11:25 AM EST
Hal Donahue
offers, " The unregulated private sector crashed and burned."

"An unregulated economy will crash."

Don't you mean under regulated Hal? We have never had an unregulated economy. Well, maybe a couple of months at the very beginning..."

I was tempted to agree with you because you are correct further regulation in derivatives and bundling for example was needed. But there was a near complete failure by the failed Bush regime to enforce existing private sector business regulation. For example, the current illegal immigrant challenge is a direct outcome of the near complete failure to enforce penalties against companies hiring illegals

"... The vast bureaucracy we see today really got going after the turn of the century and primarily thanks to the income tax. FDR tried to turn us into a socialist country in the 1930s..."

This is a completely false statement. Indeed the setback to the economy in 1937 was a direct result of his too early attempt to cut back government spending to encourage the private sector

"...Unfortunately for the country and its inhabitants, your ilk will not be happy until everything under the sun is completely regulated and prosperity stops and regresses..."

You just don't get it do you? Your conservative philosophy has already stopped prosperity and caused regression...


It is sad
I cannot believe how many people think that govt is the answer. They create nothing and what they oversee is poorly run and grossly mismanaged (look at the housing and banking situation - both govt created - a two for one deal). I am tired of these kooks in Washington only being judged on their intentions not results. I hope the upcoming pain will cause people to demand more of their leaders. these Socialist fools need to realize that when wealth is destroyed it will "trickle down" to the poor. They will not be uplifted and given more as the number of poor begin to increase. Socialism is unsustainable - it has been successful NOWHERE - the US will be no different.

Hal
I like to know what line of work you are in?I'm retired,but I see you on here daily spewing out all kinds of experience in a vast array of jobs,also mocking people by re-writing what they just said? Do you have any forieghners working for you too?

Hal is a Fool
Conservatism caused none of our problems. Conservatism has not been in practice since the mid-90's at best. Govt regulation/lack of (however you want to see it) gave us the foundation of this economic mess. they caused the housing and banking mess. Go ahead and blame it on Bush - I don't care. I will blame it on both parties and Congress as a whole. I will laugh when your welfare benefits get cut Hal because of all the kooks that voted for change forced onto welfare. I make far better decisions than the govt - and I believe most do. I will not be a slave to the govt and that is what Socialism makes the individual become - a slave. I am sorry you are too lame to make good decisions for yourself, but most Americans are not as bad off as you are. Enjoy your Socialism, your pain is coming too.

Hal
You know why you don't like Rush;He's telling you the truth which goes against your grain. Doc Phil might be a better one to listen to or the lesb--n Degen.

Hal, Hal, Hal
Hal says "Only thing is the president does the proposing and the leading in reality. Blame congress all you like as a sound bite but know reality is different" Brilliant! So, under the "Hal Docrtrine" Nixon was behind the Congressional investigation of Watergate, Reagan torpedoed his own judicial appointments, and Clinton was the driving force behind his own impeachment?

Try this: "All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills." - U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 7.

Calling your misconceptions "reality" doesn't make it so.

John, of course you are correct, but
you and Dr.s Sowell and Williams can shout these truths from the highest mountains, loud enough for everyone to hear and the moronic Obamabots won't hear a word. They are children with their fingers in their ears yelling, "Na Na, Na Na!"

The question is
can anyone (or anything) save the American people? Have we gone so far over the hill that economic salvation is all but impossible?

One of the saddest things I ever saw was when the Venezuelan Congress stood out in that park and swore allegiance to Chavez. Not much different from our own Congress.

So Hal:
Can I assume that you think pushing thru this "Stimulus" Bill without any debate was a good idea?

Polly
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 11:36 AM EST
Hal Donahue
Ahh, the pyramids were built by "average citizens." Of course, the average citizens WERE slaves."

not true

Soon Obama will have turned all of us "average citizens" into slaves--in his service. Then all will be well.

"...Will minimum wage laws apply to pyramid maintenance? ..."

If a job doesn't pay a living wage it is a poor job


luckydog1
Do you know what a "Metaphor" is? The man doesn't make it back to shore with the "Yacht". He tries to stop the "Leak" but it increases. The analogy between "Another Boat" and "A Yacht",tells you about functionality. You are not from California are you?

Bhelmet
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 12:03 PM EST
Hal is a Fool
Conservatism caused none of our problems. Conservatism has not been in practice since the mid-90's at best..."

Oh no you don't. The failed Bush Regime was exactly the kind of government you get following your failed conservative philosophy

"...I will laugh when your welfare benefits get cut Hal because of all the kooks that voted for change forced onto welfare..."

LOL sorry no welfare here

"... I make far better decisions than the govt - and I believe most do..."

Really? Prove it. Concrete examples and concrete results on a large massive scale. Come on do tell

"... I will not be a slave to the govt and that is what Socialism makes the individual become - a slave..."

It sounds an awful lot like you are a slave to ignorance. No one is talking socialism unless you call mutual cooperation and investment in our infrastructure and people "socialism". But then you have a massive problem mutual cooperation and investment are how we built our nation.

"...I am sorry you are too lame to make good decisions for yourself, ... I am doing quite fine thank you and better than most not that that matters much

So, do nothing
Stossel's economic theory, and most conservatives, is keep government out of the economy. Let the banking system collapse; let the auto industry collapse; let everything collapse and like the phoenix everything shall be reborn. Wow, what economic wisdom.

Sorry to rain on his parade. By my count there were 5 major depression during the 19th century. Since the great depression that FDR's policies did nothing to alleviate, we have had Zero depressions. In the last 8 years we have had unbridled capitalist excesses and are on the verge of another depression. Gosh, who was in charge?

STAN
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 12:09 PM EST
Hal
You know why you don't like Rush;He's telling you the truth which goes against your grain. Doc Phil might be a better one to listen to or the lesb--n Degen."

I LOVE Rush and try and listen every day especially now that he is realizing that his free ride is over. Did I hear someone say his audience was down to 14 million now? He is less popular than Rev Wright. The guy lies by telling half the story. But hey that is OK he has to appease his listeners so he polls more than anyone else. He is great at what he does.

joe_america
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 12:47 PM EST
So Hal:
Can I assume that you think pushing thru this "Stimulus" Bill without any debate was a good idea?"

No, but given the seriousness of this crash and recession it was necessary. Too bad the Republicans wanted it all their way or no way. If you don't think that the speed was necessary your job must be secure and your business safe for a bit longer

Jobs we need
You create wealth by making stuff, inventing stuff, growing stuff, building stuff and exploiting dormant natural resources. The much vaunted service jobs do not create wealth, they redistribute it. Selling insurance to each other, cutting each others grass, working for government, building pyramids and in fact most of the jobs we do cannot be paid for unless built on a foundation of wealth creation. The wealth creation jobs are relatively hard and poorly recompensed, so we send them to China. We need to rethink a few things or no stimulus is going to help us.

the name HAL is creepy...
it reminds me of that movie 2001: A Space Odyssey in which the computer named HAL takes over the ship and went psycho killing anyone that threatened to disconnect him...the voice of HAL was the worst...a complete creeper!

maybe the HAL posting here is really that computer...no mercy...no reasoning...no soul. BUAWWWW!!!!!!!

Morganthau
I've seen this quote bandied about on various conservative websites. However, I have not been able to find it in context. On the face of it, it's just not true. Unemployment went from 24.9% in 1933 to 14.3% in 1937. By 1939 it had risen to 17.2%. This is not counting the approximately %5 of the workforce working for the WPA, CCC, and other new Deal agencies.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Unemployment_rate_of_ the_1930's_in_the_united_states

Some conservatives have gone from criticizing wasteful government projects, like the bridge to nowhere, to criticizing bridges to somewhere and other useful projects. Mr. Stossel claims that they have no value because the market can't value them. Well, you can count to the penny the savings of sending a ship through the Panama Canal versus sending it around South America. (Remember that a private corporation tried to build the canal and failed.) The cost of taking the subway to work instead of driving, saves me about $8.00 a day just in parking fees. The idea that roads, airports, schools, hospitals, etc. are inherently a waste of money is silly. And what happens when the project is finished? The same thing that happens when an office building is finished, the workers go on to the next project. While they're at it they have to buy material and machinery from private company. As Mr. Donahue points out, the federal and state governments have been spending money on public works since the foundation of the republic. Where would we all be if Queen Isabella hadn't financed Columbus.

wiseone, etc.:The pyramids were built by free labor.There is a theory that they were a public works project to provide employment during the flooding of the Nile.

Forgotten condition
Note that Keynes said that government projects "paid for out of savings" were beneficial. This condition seems forgotten by supporters of the present stimulus package.

down hill economy
Our economy has been going down hill since the Carter years. It was a matter of time until the crisis would hit. With the stroke of a pen, he began the slide down for good mortgages; the housing crisis was a matter of time. But don't tell that to Senators Dodd, Frank, and Waters. They couldn't and wouldn't listen no matter how many raised the red flag about Freddy Mac and Fannie May.

Some, in their hatred for GW Bush, would like to think that he's so powerful that he caused this all by himself. Amazing.

And once again, with a stroke of a pen, our current president has given us the biggest debt in the world. Never mind the free market solutions that made this country the wealthiest on earth.

Having personally benefited from our government agencies' mistakes, I know that the government wastes millions, if not billions of tax payer dollars due to ineptitude. And now they've chosen to take more than they ever have from us when they can't even manage what they've got. (I got my extra monies from a Social Security mistake during the Clinton administration, & I got to keep those thousands of dollars; my aunt is currently getting Medicaid to pay for her Medicare premiums. That was supposed to stop a year ago this month, as she's now comfortable financially. Guess what? It's still being paid by tax payers - over a thousand dollars and it cannot be recovered. She's banking hundreds of dollars a month. Sheesh.)

Stossel is quite correct in his article. Our government is so inept with money that it just digs holes and pours money into them, then fill the hole. Our government is too big and growing by leaps and bounds.

Killer
Yes, us Cal. stupid idiiots actually do know what a metaphor is. Did you recognize the metaphor I sent you on the yacht? The economy is laways fixable. And we the people do the fixing.

Bleeding Heart
We are not in a Depression like the 1930's. We are in a recession. Ronald Reagen did exactly what you described, "nothing", and the recession did not turn inro a depression and ended a year later. It appears from your comments that you are assuming that Obama's Stimulus Package will work better than doing nothing. That is a leap of faith at best.

Hal Donahue
I really shouldn't have bothered responding to someone that believes FDR simply didn't spend enough and socialism will increase our per capita GDP when the entire economic history of the world proves the opposite. I would suggest studying Japan in the nineties but, I know you do not care one whit about facts, only pushing your twisted agenda whether through ignorance or malice. I suspect malice with you and your dear leader.

Hal
your last argument reply #60 is sad. This knee jerk reaction to do "something" and not know what is in that "something" is dangerous and stupid. The speed to pass this bill was so necessary that Obama was playing a basketball game and getting his hair cut in Chicago before signing the bill. No one has read this bill and Obama was busy playing basketball, so I can't imagine that he read the bill.

You liberals are always trying to manipulate republicans to lean across the aisle and give up their values to reach agreements. The republican party has been doing that for 8 years and look where we are now. Your ideas and your values don't work.

Hitchhiker
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 1:48 PM EST
Hal Donahue
I really shouldn't have bothered responding to someone that believes FDR simply didn't spend enough and socialism will increase our per capita GDP when the entire economic history of the world proves the opposite...."

LOL here we go again. No one is calling for socialism

HAL-boy...i know you love the attention
if only bush would have governed like a true conservative, we wouldn't be in this situation...he allowed congress to go crazy...the repubs in congress started acting like the dems, too...it was difficult to discern between them at times. no fiscal responsibility...so NO, i don't blame this crisis on conservative values...actually it is the opposite. on the domestic front...bush was way too nice and accommodating to the absurdity of the left. thus...here we are, HAL.

nothing you say will change this fact...sorry, mr. pennsylvania. oh...that reminds me of specter...what a perfect example of my point. ;O)


wagner
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 1:50 PM EST
Hal
your last argument reply #60 is sad. This knee jerk reaction to do "something" and not know what is in that "something" is dangerous and stupid...."

Coming from a flying background, I will explain things this way. First, maintain aircraft control then analyze the situation. The economic situation is so serious that first the economy had to be maintained. That was this bill.

"...The speed to pass this bill was so necessary that Obama was playing a basketball game and getting his hair cut in Chicago before signing the bill."

Sometimes getting involved does more harm than good like when he brought in the Republicans. He cannot do it all

"... No one has read this bill and Obama was busy playing basketball, so I can't imagine that he read the bill."

He and everyone else had pieces I imagine. Is it perfect but no it is out there now

"...You liberals are always trying to manipulate republicans to lean across the aisle and give up their values to reach agreements..."

We for the most part care less about your values. The question is what is the best way to accomplish the task at hand. It will seldom be perfect but it will work. That is why you folks were unable to govern if you did not get everything you wanted you got nothing



Hal's right about one thing
It was Bush's failure of leadership that allowed the Democrats, not even in the majority yet, to stop any tighter regulation/supervision of Fannie and Freddie.

True, Bush and the Republicans would have been portrayed as cruel, unsympathetic, and probably racist if reining in those two Government Sponsored Entities had caused even one poor family to be denied a loan (as Barney Frank LOUDLY warned). And that family would now be sitting in their rented home, secure in the knowledge that BUSH is at fault for their having to sit home bitchin' that the landlord's not fixing their plumbing (instead of sitting in their mortgaged home, unable to afford to fix their own plumbing).

And the Dems could have run on the inhumanity of the Republicans rather than on how Republican policies have ruined the economy.

Frankly, I'd prefer the first result. So yes, Bush failed to lead/push enough. He and the Republicans allowed the Democrats to push them around.

hals response to wagner...pitiful
Wagner writes: "... No one has read this bill and Obama was busy playing basketball, so I can't imagine that he read the bill."

HAL writes: "He [obama] and everyone else had pieces I imagine. Is it perfect but no it is out there now"

-------------------------------------
hello, hal..."I IMAGINE"...is that the best you can do? "IT'S OUT THERE NOW"...another winning argument...oh, yeah, that's exactly how i want to be represented...if this is the change promised, we certainly got it! what mattered was that the bill be fully disclosed prior to the vote. i mean, these people in congress voted on our behalf with "PIECES"...are you for real? that kind of governing is pretty scary and offensive...we're not talking pocket change, hal.

does anyone out there find Hal's response to wagner absolutely comical...i'm beginning to think Hal is more of a comedian than he is a "philosophizer" (ben stiller in dodge ball or zoolander).

Hal
So saving a mouse is paramount to saving our economic situation...come on Hal.

Getting involved Hal? He had no involvement...great leadership.

Not perfect? Your standards are way too low. Set the standards low enough and they will always be met.

Didn't they lock out all the republicans, except for the three that would agree to this plan. Great way to reach across the aisle.

Even the CBO, hardly a rightwing org
stated that doing nothing is better than this StickItToUs BS.

But don't confuse the Obamabots with facts, it messes with their preconcieved moronic ideas.

Pyramids
I tried to get this published in a few newspapers. Note that compared to other useless ventrues pyramids have some benefits:
A better approach for economic stimulus would be pyramid building. Pyramids are low tech and the building of 500 to 1000 pyramids across the nation could absorb millions of the almost unemployable high school dropouts and for that matter many of the uneducated graduates. This new class of consumers will bootstrap economic growth. To maximize employment the pyramids would be built with no modern construction equipment – just ramps, logs, ropes and pulleys. To some this may seem a waste of money but the pyramids could serve many positive purposes and possibly bring in some revenue. Consider how many tourists visit Egypt to see old pyramids. These will be new, and possibly bigger. Pyramid building contests could be held between the states. Water slides could easily be incorporated into the design. Rather then naming highways, government office buildings, airports etc. after pompous politicians they could have a pyramid named after them, plus a final resting place. But the biggest advantages of pyramids are they are low maintenance and you only pay for them once. Compare this to renewable energy projects where hundreds of billions of dollars are invested, important resources diverted from useful work, and then every year they operate we pay a 30 to 50 percent premium for our energy. Pyramids will put no demand on our limited engineering, construction and scientific resources which could be applied to building nuclear power plants, drilling for offshore oil, and fusion power research. BUT WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING!!! Here again pyramids can serve a function. They can be the temples of the new religion of global warming. The Global Warmests can make pilgrimages and pray to the sun god to make it warmer; for sure manmade CO2 won't make it happen.

Hal Donahue
Yes, Nancy Pelosi was certainly willing to compromise with the Republicans and let them have some of what they wanted. That's good, Hal.

That's why she's out explaining how hard she tried to work with the other side. Or not.

It doesn't matter that no one knows what's in this bill; we'll find out on a need-to-know-basis. All that matters is that each legislator SPENT a bunch of money on stuff they wanted, and that's all that matters to that legislator--he or she has read HIS/HER part, guaranteed. And ACORN and the Unions have been rewarded. That's all Porkulus was intended to do.

It had to be done RUSH RUSH RUSH because the economy has shown some indications of improvement, and it better not try to improve on its own, dammit!!! NOW if it improves, it's only because of this magical Porculus bill.

A Living Wage
Hal, just who are you to determine what a "living wage" is? Are you God. Are you omniscient? What is a "living wage" for me may not be a "living wage" for Paris Hilton. Personally I really don't care how much she makes or what she does with it. That's her business...not mine. Her great grandfather risked a lot to start in the hotelier business. I haven't risked any where close to half that much...so I don't deserve to make that much. I can live off of less because I CHOOSE to. If you can't live off less GET A FRICKEN JOB and leave me alone. It's none of your business how much people make and who are you to determine what is a good job and a bad job? That's your judgement... My judgement is that anything is better than nothing and at least in a capitalist society there are ways to move upwards, in a socialist society I might as well be in a caste society because I ain't going nowhere. Well, even in a caste society, you can move up if you die -- reincarnation you know.

y
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 2:00 PM EST
HAL-boy...i know you love the attention
if only bush would have governed like a true conservative, we wouldn't be in this situation..."

my point is that he did govern as a true conservative. Conservatism says it is all about the individual. Failed Bush ran with that hooray for him to heck with everyone else. That is exactly where conservatism leads

"...sorry, mr. pennsylvania. oh...that reminds me of specter...what a perfect example of my point. ;O)"

You guys going to take him out this primary?

y
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 2:27 PM EST
hals response to wagner...pitiful
....hello, hal..."I IMAGINE"...is that the best you can do? "IT'S OUT THERE NOW"...another winning argument...oh, yeah, that's exactly how i want to be represented..."

Spoken like someone with a job or no need for one

Public Works
It's my understanding that the Milwalkee? public school's enrollment has declined 15%. So now, instead of aging empty schools, they will have brand new empty schools. Sounds like conspicuous consumption to me. Isn't that the definition of wealth?

I've got about 80 comments to catch up on but it sounds like I can ignore the ones from Hal.

Polly
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 2:33 PM EST
....It had to be done RUSH RUSH RUSH because the economy has shown some indications of improvement, and it better not try to improve on its own, dammit!!! NOW if it improves, it's only because of this magical Porculus bill."

Sigh I only wish you were right but sadly you are not. The trend lines are all steeply down. Guess what Rush's naming isn't have the effect it once did...

Really?
You repugs have had a good long run at the economy with a brief intermission for the Clinton years, which produced peace, prosperity and a surplus of 250 billion +.
All gone, all gone, with your spend, spend, charge, charge and tax the middle class while giving the wealthiest all the breaks. You wrecked the economy for yourselves with your outlandish salaries, bonsas, greed, arrogance and stupidity. You lost in November; I don't want any more repug economics that have ruined our country. You offer nothing but the same repug and pony show that has bought us to the brink of collapse; another pov needs to be given a run. Couldn't be any worse than the job you have done so far! I think most of the misallocation of resources has been done by people of your ilk.

Small business doesn't have a tax problem; it has a credit and lack of demand problem. No demand, no need for manufacturing, no need for employees. The current stimulus package aims to stimulate demand by giving vital segments money to build needed infrastructure which will require people to work (and not a slave wages). Increased employment opportunity, leads to increased demand for goods and services which leads to increased consumer confidence which leads to increased consumer spending, which leads to increased employment opportunities to meet the demand.

And rememeber, no tax cut ever built this country; it's run-of-the-mill citizens did ALL the actual work and we are the ones you so bitterly resent? No tax cut will ever build a bridge or road or sewer project or water managemment project. No tax cut ever built a school or library. No tax cut ever found a cure or treatment for cancer, AID, diabetes, MS, MD, heart disease, et.
Take you lame excuse for an column and line the birdcage or cat box.

Petulance
It is amusing that people like Hal Donahue act as if their mere statement of an opinion makes that opinion a "fact" . . . simply because they so vehemently believe in their own presumed infallibility. That attitude reminds me of a petulant child who says, "No, I will not listen to grown-ups, because I know what I want to believe, and what I want to believe is what's so. So there!"
Donahue seems to be unaware that he reveals a lot about himself when he makes claims alleging the "laudatory" affects of FDR's New Deal policies . . . without once giving ANY verifiable scholarly sources to support those claims. I, for one, am a lot more inclined to give respect to the views of established and reputable scholars, like Friedrich Hayek and Thomas E. Woods, Jr., than I am to the unsubstantiated rants of Hal Donahue . . . an individual who appears to have no life outside of the Internet.
How many times does it have to be said?
George Bush is NOT a CONSERVATIVE!
Just because he CLAIMED to be a conservative does not mean that he really was one.
Donahue can give his own personal definition to the word "conservative" until hell freezes over. It will still not change the fact that the Bush administration was NOT a conservative administration. No TRUE conservative would EVER give taxpayer loan guarantees, subsidies and bailouts to ANY for-profit business . . . except in the extreme case of helping them to deal with the consequences of a NATURAL catastrophe, insurrection or foreign military invasion.

Alice is also a Fool
Alice you are a complete idiot. Clinton's years brought peace b/c he ignored the Islamic extremists - I guess Kosovo was pretty peaceful. Tax Cuts are exactly what build the country the same way you indicated. They give the People the freedom to spend their money on goods and services which in turn creates more jobs. People are the key. Give the people the power and the economy will roar. When the govt empower themselves the people suffer. Suffering is coming - and Obama has compounded it. Congress is this country's biggest problem and one party has controilled it for just about the past 40 years. Enough of the party bickering - it is time to get rid of the crooks and dead wood. There is plenty od that on both sides. At least Conservatives take action and get rid of their dead wood - what have the Dems done? Congress caused our economic woes and the same clowns are now in charge of fixing it. Yeah, I expect that to go well. Wise up Alice, we have a character problem within our govt. Until We the People address that issue - we are in for more of the same no matter which party is in power.

Hal Donohue
Is a shining example of why we are headed in such a disastrous direction.

Alice
Remember the big dig in Boston? The problem with government spending is there is no accountability. The big dig was a big disaster and just an example of what the "government" does with tax dollars. If the bottom line doesn't matter, which it doesn't with governement projects, then you will have waste, theft, etc.

Stealing money from the citizens to create government "projects" is never a good solution.


Myk
I didn't mind TARP because I'm aware that Big Government CAUSED the "mortgage crisis." If Big Government breaks it, Big Government should fix it. Too bad the Big Government "fixers" are US, the taxpayers, and of course our children and grandchildren, assuming the U.S. survives in any recognizable form. It's especially galling because we never gave Big Government permission to screw up our lending institutions, but once they're in and able to regulate, punish and reward at will, what can we do?

Helping bail out people who should have stayed in their apartments but now may end up getting free homes...well, not so much.

Only an idiot would think George Bush was a conservative. Donahue is just yanking your chain.

Unless, of course, Donahue IS an idiot.

I think Obama's
statement that his package will "Creat" and/or "Save," jobs is a play on words -- weasel wording, that is.

How is he going to validate "saved" jobs? Does that mean that a given 3-4 million jobs that are now in existance will be "saved" if they are still in existance at some point in the future?

Created jobs can be validated as "created." "Saved" jobs? Good Grief, Charlie Brown!

Hal - the Foolery continues
I make far better decisions than the govt. You know what my debt is? ZERO - that makes me better than $10T smarter than the govt.

We have been investing in the infrastructure during every Administration since Bush I. Where that money goes I have no idea. Clinton passed billions for infrastructure improvements lasting thru 2010. Was that money spent or was the work so shoody that they need to be worked on again?

If you believe this stimulus is going to be spent on creating jobs you are as ignorant as small-minded. This bill was so good they are already talking about part 2 and most of the money will not even enter the economy until the mid-term elections. Does that sound like it is in the best interest of the people?

You libs are hilarious. Trying to level the playing field for all only brings people DOWN not up. The best and brightest of this country will go where they will be rewarded for their intelligence, hard work, and ingenuity. If things keep going the way they are contribuors will leave and there will only be libs left with their habds outstretched.

Investing in people and infrastructure is all fine and well, but not when people are punished for it to come about. That is what Obama is all about. He will take from those that achieve and excel only to give it to people who choose to do nothing. UNSUSTAINANLE. I am an engineer and I will not allow my hard work to go to lazy, unmotivated slackers unless I choose. I can take my skills anywhere in the world - I just might.

No, it's not . . .
No . . .

True conservatism . . . in the LIBERTARIAN sense of the word, which is MY definition, Mr. Donahue, not yours . . . is NOT about the individual ALWAYS having his or her way to the exclusion of everyone else. It IS about having the liberty to exercise personal sovereignty over my OWN life AND the MAJORITY of my OWN income . . . free from the COERCION of the centralized state . . . as long as I do not knowingly and deliberately violate those same rights of other individuals.

Myk
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 3:39 PM EST
Petulance
It is amusing that people like Hal Donahue act as if their mere statement of an opinion makes that opinion a "fact" . . . "

If I give a "fact" you can easily verify it on line. If I give an opinion it is mine and mine alone. Petulance??? Nope glee

"simply because they so vehemently believe in their own presumed infallibility..."

Ooops I am many good things. Infallible? That presumption I leave all to the ditto heads here LOL

"... That attitude reminds me of a petulant child who says, "No, I will not listen to grown-ups, because I know what I want to believe, and what I want to believe is what's so. So there!".."

You are calling the folks here "grown ups" LMAO that is good very good LOL

"....than I am to the unsubstantiated rants of Hal Donahue . . . an individual who appears to have no life outside of the Internet..."

do your own research take a look out side of "approved sources". I sometimes agree with you about the internet on days like today when I am scrambling on deadlines

"...How many times does it have to be said?
George Bush is NOT a CONSERVATIVE!.."

Scream all you like but he is one and calls himself one

"... It will still not change the fact that the Bush administration was NOT a conservative administration..."

that failed administration is exactly what you get from conservatism. Everyone for themselves to heck with others. Those are conservatism's first two commandments

it's no-sense Hal...
how do you know that i have a job or that i don't need one? how does this bill help me find a job...keep a job (no temporary work, please...a long-term job)? you assume too much, my dear.

your point...conservatism = individuality...nothing wrong with that...evangelical conservatives give more time and money to charities and their communities than any other group...including libs. conservative evangelicals, churches and evangelical organizations have been globe trotting for decades helping those in need around the world...libs are behind the curve...are we supposed to be impressed with the likes of brangelina now? we, the conservatives, have been at this for much longer.

yes...we want the individual to succeed, because then he/she can help others in a MEANINGFUL way...and the cycle continues (pay it forward). we need to help people stand on their own two feet...provide opportunities instead of creating opportunists.

encouraging folks to be dependent is cruel, heartless and unhealthy. do you remember the Borg from star trek..."the collective"...scary sh**...that is your world, not mine. and i will fight against it every step of the way. or if you prefer, the matrix...what an awesome picture of complete collectivism...and the only way to help human-kind was to become an individual with a purpose and pluck (painfully, so) others from their dependent slumber. thrusting folks into government programs has proven to be a abhorrent injustice and looks eerily similar to the matrix. dependency is an ugly thing shrouded in beauty and ease.

sounds like you're afraid of a little pain...man-up, hal...it not all bad. we learn the most valuable lessons in life though suffering/failure...preventing this experience for someone is truly egregious. we, as individuals, must help each other...not as a collective, inefficient machine.


Hal, as usual you've made a bad
assumption. The economic situation does not justify not having a reasonable discussion of the options available to us to fix the problem (hell, to even understand the problem!).

Just for the record, I am retired and the reason this action concerns me is that it is probably going to create significant, if not hyper-, inflation.

Conservatism is the right way
True conservatism puts trust in the individual, ensuring individual liberties and throughout our history the greatest progression toward wealth creation and increased standard of living has been those times that were the least regulated and least taxed.

Free market economies enable private enterprise to run its/their own businesses and industries. Facts prove that private enterprise is far superior and more efficient than government trying to accomplish similar industry (think Amtrak, Post Office, etc.). The only area of operations that government is somewhat effective (and good at) is running the military - not perfect, just better than anything else government does.

Government cannot, by definition CREATE wealth. It can only forcibly take from the producers to give or redistribute to others. That is analogous to filling buckets of water from the deep end of the pool and pouring it in the shallow end. Makes no sense, and no productivity.

No regulation? Not possible. But regulation needs to be reasonable and protective. It is not used this way. It primarily advances political direction, and has proven woefully incapable. Did Madoff take advantage of lack of regulation, or was he regulated by incompetent regulators? Typical of government effectiveness.

Keep in mind also, funding of government vs funding of free enterprise. Government COMPELS contributions, even for nonsense, sure-to-fail, or morally repugnant programs. Private businesses thrive only through VOLUNTARY payments from customers. Bad businesses will tend to fade away from lack of customers.

Conservatism is the right way (pt. 2)
When enough private businesses provide enough desirable products and services to voluntary customers, we get supermarkets full of groceries to choose from, computer stores with almost unimaginable tech machines, unequaled entertainment choices, and generally growing quality of life and standard of living. In short, the tide rises, lifting everyone's boats.

With government controlled economy, increased private spending is suppressed, and R&D suffers, and the focus becomes lowering high-achievers to the "fair" level of all.

It's how you look at the economic "pie". Liberals want us all to share our pieces of the same pie. True conservatism enables everyone to grow their own pies, as big as they can.

History has proven time and again that when individuals work for themselves, they are more productive. When the USSR first went Commie, they forced all agriculture to be "communed" - no one owned anything private. The farm production was dreadful. When it changed to allow everyone their own small plots of land, crops grew exponentially.

Facts is facts. Government stalls and suppresses. Individuals produce.

Conservatism is the way to go...
...but the trouble is that we do not have any true conservatives in either house of Congress. Or, if there are, there are very few. A lot of Republicans claim to be conservative, but they really aren't. Like the Democrats, they pretend to be conservative to get elected. But, once in office, there touted conservatism go out the window.

I'm now an Independent and no longer a Republican for the same reason I'm no longer a Democrat. As Reagan once said about himself quitting the Democrat party, "I didn't leave the party, the party left me."

Harold
I agree. When Newsweek can aver "We are socialists" without a hint of shame then we realize the battle is over, at least for now. We need a conservative party that can stay true to our principles (USA founding) and with a leader who can effectively communicate without embarrassment. We need to present our case and explain why our philosophy is better. No more watered-down "bi-partisanship" that leads to McCain-Feingold, McCain Amnesty, TARP, etc. Americans are generally not stupid, they have only been fed one side of the political spectrum. We haven't had a true spokesman for 20+ years!

Bhelmet
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 3:54 PM EST
Hal - the Foolery continues
I make far better decisions than the govt. You know what my debt is? ZERO - that makes me better than $10T smarter than the govt."

Wealth is a far better measuring stick than debt. Most homeless have zero debt

"...if you believe this stimulus is going to be spent on creating jobs you are as ignorant as small-minded. This bill was so good they are already talking about part 2 and most of the money will not even enter the economy until the mid-term elections. Does that sound like it is in the best interest of the people?"

yes and it will create jobs

"...You libs are hilarious. Trying to level the playing field for all only brings people DOWN not up..."

well the poisoned food/toys and illegal challenge say clearly you are wrong deregulation does not work

"...The best and brightest of this country will go where they will be rewarded for their intelligence, hard work, and ingenuity..."

If you are talking cash you are wrong. Not everyone works for cash but other rewards like healing the sick.

"...Investing in people and infrastructure is all fine and well, but not when people are punished for it to come about. That is what Obama is all about. He will take from those that achieve and excel only to give it to people who choose to do nothing. "

This is a lie. Those who do nothing few care to help but many want to help their children. I figure I get more from society I should pay back more. Sounds fair to me. The people I hear talking as you do usually have little anyway which I find confusing

"...UNSUSTAINANLE. I am an engineer and I will not allow my hard work to go to lazy, unmotivated slackers unless I choose. I can take my skills anywhere in the world - I just might."

Then please do and see what the world is like. Who paid for your schooling? Was it all private? I can go on and on..

joe_america
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 4:15 PM EST
Hal, as usual you've made a bad
assumption. The economic situation does not justify not having a reasonable discussion of the options available to us to fix the problem (hell, to even understand the problem!)."

Oh yes it does look at the trend lines they truly are scary. I put to you this is a national security issue

"...Just for the record, I am retired and the reason this action concerns me is that it is probably going to create significant, if not hyper-, inflation."

The reason for this action is to prevent deflation. You are very right hyper inflation is a danger if they keep pushing deficits after the economy turns. That is a very real danger. I just saw deflation in Argentina and I will take fighting inflation over deflation

Hum...
Harold: and who would be your spokesman of choice? It seems to me, you supposedly conservative folks have had a good long run for the last 30 years, with an intermission for Clinton and his fiscal surplus. Then there is all the talk radio loudmouths. . of course I don't know who they represent, but has never been me.

Bhelmet: the only character problems we have is too many folks like you and the repugs in the Congress, who do little but function as obstructionist and naysayers.

RealCommonSense: you play the fool's game of "the chicken or the egg". We've done the repug way, it is time to try something else and to give someone else a chance. Our folks couldn't possibly screw up the economy anymore than you repugs, your ivy league buddies and Wall Street. Conservatives want only one thing; more for themselves at everyone else's expense and still claim they are Christian.

Wagner: better than other citizens? Are you referring to the Wall Sreet Wizards, the repugs in Congress or just the plain ordinary run-of-the-mill robbers, muggers, embezzlers, bankers and financiers? I don't like the company you keep and neither should you.

ALICE
You know this economic problem, i think started about two years ago, about the time the democrats took over congress. I know this is an inconvenience for you, I know you and all your short memoried friends can forget this again without any problem. I know all Dimocrats have short memories because it takes a certain amount of intelligence to be able to remember anything over a years time.

Hal Donahue
You do know that nothing will happen on the spending bull for at least three or four months right, so obviously the reason there was no time or debates was to prevent anybody from reading the bull. Obama lied again when he said there were no earmarks or pork in this bull, it is all pork any the few jobs created are temporary and menial. To say this is not so, is to say a San Fransisco swamp mouse is necessary and will create jobs and will stimulate the economy. Obama obviously has not even read pelousys bull.

stossel
why the slap at the world war 2 veterans? and who is this ridiculous higgs character. " many volunteered to avoid the draft." my father joined the marine corps at 17 right after pearl harbor. not to avoid the draft. out of patriotism and love of country. and there were many like him. say what you want about roosevelt, but to smear millions of brave kids who only wanted to serve their country to advance your political agenda is despicable.that quote offended me. my father and a whole bunch of others are not around anymore to defend themselves from this higgs imbecile, so i will. they deserve better than this.

Roland
"Date: Feb 18, 2009 - 5:58 PM EST
Hal Donahue
You do know that nothing will happen on the spending bull for at least three or four months right, so obviously the reason there was no time or debates was to prevent anybody from reading the bull."

Wrong if we delayed to read and negotiate nothing would have happened for yet another three or four months. If that is OK with you you have a safe job or do not need one

"...Obama lied again when he said there were no earmarks or pork in this bull, it is all pork any the few jobs created are temporary and menial...."

there is not one earmark as I understand it. Also, medical jobs etc are hardly menial and probably not temporary

"... To say this is not so, is to say a San Fransisco swamp mouse is necessary and will create jobs and will stimulate the economy..."

Guess what the little mouse may just do that but it is at best a tiny, tiny piece

exactly
Exactly...what's needed are not politicians that understand this, but a public that understands this. If the public were not so stupid, these ideas that Obama has used to "Create" jobs would be shot down in 5 minutes...However, instead of teaching kids economics in school, we choose to send them to gym class...how sad, we're screwed...

Roland
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my memory or my understanding of history or economics. Our economic downturn has been coming for the last 4-5 years.
About the time Duyba lied and successfully got us into a totally unnecessary war and spent the entire Clinton surplus in record time. That coupled with the tax cuts for the wealthiest of us caused record and I do mean record deficits. We are essentially bankrupct; you know it, I know it and most Americans, including the Pres knows it.

The writer of this dribble talks about "real jobs" as if working for a living wasn't a real job. Even working for the government is a real job. You give the government entity your time to do the work available=a JOB! The infrastructure work will provide long term real jobs; we have over 1000 brides that are in a dangerous state of disrepair. We have over a million miles of road in disrepair, we have over 5000 schools in the country that are almost falling down around the kids, we have countless sewer and water mgt projects that need to be started or completed to provide water for the population. NO PRIVATE company is able to do these projects like our governments.

Stop worrying about my state or level of cognition; I WILL NEVER THINK, FEEL OR ACT AS YOU DO. Let the work begin. . .the gouging has already been done by the bankers and financiers; they need not apply for "real jobs".

I still think the Politicians
should have to sign a statement that any bill they just passed will achieve the stated objectives or else they will have to give up their office (a political version of the requirement Congress put on CEO's to sign an affidavit that any submittal to the Gov't. is accurate.)

Alice
You didn't address the big dig. And you left out the democrats. You know the ones that Obama tried to vet, but because they didn't pay taxes, or are being investigated for abusing their power (Richards) couldn't get confirmed. And let's not forget Blogovich. Are you proud yet?

Don't worry about the company I keep, when you should be worried about the company you keep.

Question for Democrats
Why is one business owned by the government so much better than 6000 businesses owned by people?

At least if there is corruption in some of the 6000 we have a choice to go to the others.

Note that if you have 6000 businesses owned by the government you have ONE business with 6000 departments.

Alice Ga
And rememeber, no tax cut ever built this country; it's run-of-the-mill citizens did ALL the actual work and we are the ones you so bitterly resent? No tax cut will ever build a bridge or road or sewer project or water managemment project. No tax cut ever built a school or library. No tax cut ever found a cure or treatment for cancer, AID, diabetes, MS, MD, heart disease, et.

News flash, run-of-the-mill citizens generally do what they do with what is left over after taxes. Historically, in this country, not everything has been done by government although many would like that to change. That being true, it is quite possible that tax cuts have built schools and libraries as well as found cures or treatments for more than impotence.

Dusty - NY
Sorry bud, but your premise is all messed up.

Reagan cut taxes - revenue to the gov't went WAY up and that revenue was used to build bridges, roads, sewage plants, water treatment, schools, libraries, funded research on cancer, AIDS, diabetes, MS, MD, heart disease, etc.

Newsflash to you - As Stossel points out in his article government DESTROYS wealth. Wealth is what is needed to fund all of the items you mentioned, and more.

Tax cuts and wealth
As of the writing of this aritcle tax cuts had been tried only 3 times. Each and EVERY time it was tried both prosperity went up and tax REVENUE went up. A lot. We should really consider learning from history before we become buried in the remains.


http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=48

This Government is Out of Control
Congress doesn't even read the stimulus bill before signing it so Nancy Pelosi can go on her great Italian adventure. Roland Burris admits to trying to raise money for Blago, probably committing perjury. People get bailed out for making bad decisions while the people who work everyday, obey laws and pay their taxes will have to sacrifice to pay for others' bad decisions. Tell me this - why should we obey the law anymore? Why should we pay our taxes? Why should we forgive the Tim Geitners of the world for not paying taxes when we would go to jail. Washington has become a Banana Republic. Find me a state that is willing to secede from the Union and I might have to move there. I think New Hampshire is a good candidate.

its all coming together
make no mistake about the steps that have or will be taken.

These steps have been think tanked , discussed , debated amoung the liberal elite for years. They have control now and they plan on making the very most of this "crisis" and trust me it will stay a crisis as long as they can completely change the very pillars of the way we do business , live our lives , conduct public policy, health care, transportation , when and where we travel to, amount of kids , schooling, and please remember that odd statement by His glorious Leader Obama about a public nonmilitary group with as much if not more of a budget then the DOD ? when asked about this no one could answer what the F#$k he was talking about. To be honest I dont have a clue either.

Perhaps the way FDR used the draft to get rid of unemployment , perhaps theres some kinda of mega socialist ideal of basically having more and more people on the tax rolls ,why ? well will folks who count on Obama for there dripplings seriously critize the very man who hands out those driblings ? I dont think so.

It may very well get to where you either work for Mother Government or you work for a propped up private company endorsed or tax backed so called private Jobs ... think G.E , think solarpanelsRus.

His Glorious leader visited a solar panel company that gives equal salary to all employees no matter title , rank or length of time at job, 6 weeks paid vacation to all , and of course the best part for his Glorious Leader the company has never shown a profit in the private sector. why would he highlight that company ? well its our future!

submit or his Glorious leader will not be pleased.

God forgive us for not flooding the streets of washington with pitch forks and torches

Peter O
North Idaho

John Galt was correct
When the people that make the world go round give up and quit, this all falls apart. At what time does it become immoral to pay your taxes? They take your money and give it away to programs and policies that go against every value that you have as an American and you are supposed to just sit there and take it, and take it and take it. When is it time to stop giving and start letting it all fall apart? The more you give, the more they take anyway, so why bother anymore?

Creating "real" Jobs"
Why don't we ever hear this said: the federal govt. should not be paying to repair bridges to "create" jobs (which are temporary at best). Projected costs for repair and maintenance (before tragedies like the collapse of I-75) should be included in budgets so the money is there when the repair/maintenance is needed. That's how solvent businesses operate: funds held in contingency until needed. Proving again that the federal govt. (congress) is run by somambulent (sleep-walking) incompetents who would not hold their jobs for 5 minutes in the private sector.

Bring the Lost Jobs Back to the USA!!!!!
Hey John, why isn't anyone talking about bringing the "lost" jobs back to the USA? Remember when Ross Perot talked about the “Giant Sucking Sound.” Why isn’t Obama talking about bringing our jobs back to America? We used to make TV’s, clothing, shoes, toys and on and on. We export more raw materials than finished goods, the hallmark of a third world nation. We are the largest debtor nation in the world and the only thing our elected reps can come up with is to borrow more money from the Communist Chinese and others so we can buy more of their goods at the WalMart!
My wife and I were in Dillard’s, Aus, Tx. last week and the manager said with the exception of a few men’s suits, everything in the store was imported. This week, Dillard’s announced it was closing this store. Obama is running around apologizing for suggesting a “buy America first” policy. That is wrong and his stimulus plan is wrong! No one has any trouble about crying about “getting off of foreign oil” but no one even whispers about "getting off of foreign" made consumables. Some say making everyday products in the US would be too expensive. Oh really? Then why did Honda, Hyundai &Toyota, to name a few come to America to build their cars. By the way, they are screwing their people as well by moving plants to other nations. Did you know GM just built a multi million-dollar factory in Russia? Let’s get real here, if we don’t bring back manufacturing to America, we are going to go the way of the Mayans.
In my opinion we don’t start making toasters, blenders, pot and pans, shirts, shoes, kitchenware, toys, large and small appliances and more we will go out of business.
PS The real story may be the fact that I ONLY RECEIVED ONE RESPONSE to my missive after emailing, faxing and calling dozens governors, congressman, senators and media personalities, like you. Helen Thomas replied: “You have got something.”
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