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Wednesday, January 28, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The College Scam
by John Stossel
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A college diploma is supposed to be the ticket to the good life. Colleges and politicians tell students, "Your life will be much better if you go to college. On average during your lifetime you will earn a million dollars more if you get a bachelor's degree." Barack Obama, stumping on the campaign trail, said, "We expect all our children not only to graduate high school, but to graduate college."

Rachele Percel heard the promises. She borrowed big to pay about $24,000 a year to attend Rivier College in New Hampshire. She got a degree in human development. "I was told just to take out the loans and get the degree because when you graduate you're going to be able to get that good job and pay them off no problem," she told me for last week's "20/20."

But for three years she failed to find a decent job. Now she holds a low-level desk job doing work she says she could have done straight out of high school. And she's still $85,000 in debt. This month she had to move out of her apartment because she couldn't pay the rent.

The promise about college? "I definitely feel like it was a scam," says Rachele.

Her college wrote us that that many of its graduates have launched successful careers. But Rachele's problem isn't uncommon. A recent survey asked thousands of students: Would you go to your college again? About 40 percent said no.

"The bachelor's degree? It's America's most overrated product," says education consultant and career counselor Dr. Marty Nemko.

Nemko is one of many who are critical of that often-cited million-dollar bonus. "There could be no more misleading statistic," he says. It includes billionaire super-earners who skew the average. More importantly, the statistic misleads because many successful college kids would have been successful whether they went to college or not.

"You could take the pool of college-bound students and lock them in a closet for four years -- and they're going to earn more money," Nemko says.

Those are the kids who already tend to be more intelligent, harder-working and more persistent.

But universities still throw around that million-dollar number. Arizona State recently used it to justify a tuition hike.

Charles Murray's recent book, "Real Education", argues that many students just aren't able to handle college work. Graduation statistics seem to bear him out.

"If you're in the bottom 40 percent of your high school class," Nemko says, "you have a very small chance of graduating, even if you are given eight and a half years."

Colleges still actively recruit those kids, and eight years later, many of those students find themselves with no degree and lots of debt. They think of themselves as failures.

"And the immoral thing about it is that the colleges do not disclose that!"

For many kids, career counselors told us, it's often smarter to acquire specific marketable skills at a community college or technical school, or to work as an apprentice for some business. That makes you more employable.

Vocational education pays off for many. Electricians today make on average $48,000 a year. Plumbers make $47,000. That's more than the average American earns. But some people look down on vocational school. A degree from a four-year college is considered first class. A vocational-school degree is not.

"More people need to realize that you don't have to get a four-year degree to be successful," says Steven Eilers, who went through an automotive program and then continued his education by getting a paying job as an apprentice in a car-repair center. He's making good money, and he has zero student-loan debt.

Eilers story is no fluke. In the past year, while hundreds of thousands of white-collar jobs vanished, the auto-repair industry added jobs.

Self-serving college presidents and politicians should drop the scam. Higher enrollments and government loan programs may be good for them, but they are making lots of our kids miserable and poor. For many, the good life can be lived without college.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Another great article, John
I am a college graduate and I often think I would have been better off to just get a job and learn on the job. Many of my colleagues (I'm a computer programmer) didn't go to school and make a lot more money than I do because they were getting the training they needed on the job. Also, there are lots better ways to make money than to get a job. Entrepeneurs often have no degree and yet create a lot of value in the marketplace using their unique gifts and talents. JOB really stands for Just Over Broke, or so I've been told.

College Scam
The proliferation of colleges in the recent decades, advertising the value of a generic bachelor's degree appears to suck in many unwary. Mr. Stossel's examples of suckers obtaining subpar education illustrate the point that all degrees are not created equal; but he trys to make the false point that higher education is a waste in general.

The facts are that some people are exceptional, some are not. Combine the level of exceptionalism with drive or ambition, and the result is success. Simply obtaining a bachelor's degree from "Rivier College" will not lead automatically lead to success, where a bachelor's from Harvard will at least get you an interview with an investment bank (at least when there used to be investment banks). The hard (for some) part is getting into Harvard--but this is a function of exceptionalism and drive as a child. I imagine Rivier College will admit all who are willing to pay.

This is not to say that a Rivier College grad cannot achieve success--but I imagine there are not to many exceptional individuals attending Rivier. Not everyone needs an education: most are not disposed to be educated, so why even try?

Prager
Dennis Prager has some additional thoughts on the utility of college educations in 21st century America. Specifically, he notes that while the utility of a college degree, its impact on employability in the job market, is negligible, colleges have one overwhelming uniform impact on all students: ideological indoctrination.

The problem is lowered standards
.

The College Scam

First we raised taxes causing manufacturing jobs to leave local neighborhoods and move overseas.

Then we use the tax money so people can go to college and commute 1 hour to and from work.

The world according to Liberals.

The Iceberg.
Mr. Stossel, usually a good reporter, and those commenting here, so far, are seeing only the tip of the iceberg.

One of the best places to go to find out what a BA, or even BS degree, means is Professional Recruiters. They know. And they've got all kinds of code words that help to easily circumvent all the "rules" of employment, if you know what I mean.

An even bigger scam is the MA and MBA.

Poor Rachele got a degree in "human development?"

What is human development, and how does one make a living at it?

On the face of it, if I were known as a "human developer," I would hang my head in shame.

Interesting anecdotal. The 19th century produced outstanding engineers in the British Isles and America. They designed and installed most of the eras needed infrastructure of industry and transportation. Few of them had any formal education. The American, James Eads, and the Scot, John McAdam, come to mind. Both of them began their careers at the age of 16, deploma-less.

Personally, during my 71 years, I've known many fellows who got rich, after dropping out of HS at about the 10th grade. In fact, virtually all of them.

In fact, I did so well I was able to pay $200,000 cash for my daughter to graduaate "with honors" -- the degree is, "Political, Legal & Economic Analysis," whatever in the h*ll that is. They love her in San Francisco. She's a good waitress.

Jeez!
I don't even know how to spell "diploma."

College presidents and politicans
are part of a more involved scam. Other ways are used to entice and force people to pay college tuition.

The graduation statistics are not only explained by students who just can't handle college work, but also by college students who do not receive the full amount of financial aid they have shown eligibility for. Somewhere out there are reports that show financial aid issues have cut short most students' efforts who have not graduated, and it has nothing to do with not being able to handle the work.

General funds become depleted, somehow or other, too many students were admitted or too much embezzelment occurred courtesy of certain members of the college's administrators, or for who knows what reason, but lack of funds prevent qualified students from receiving the full aid they qualify for. Yet, to them the college still manages to grant enough to a few bucks more than the tuition fees for the qualified and admitted students. Then, these students who still try to persevere see that their tuition fees are always automatically debited from their slashed financial award packages, so the colleges at least profit, but the students are left in what what the Chinese would call an "interesting" position.

This would be one of having to achieve academic success with practically no funds for housing, food, or books.

The Million dollar raise was true...
...back when people actually EARNED a college degree. Afterwards, they went out and reapplied the principles they learned to earn thier degree toward earning a good living! Nowadays a college degree is simply purchased then held up as evidence of entitlement for a good paying job.

It's about chioces
One can attend college for fun, and have some worthless, touchy-feely major, like sociology, English, or "women's studies". Do that, and you ought not be surprised if you find yourself in Rachele Percel's unenviable position, i.e., overwhelmed by debt and unemployable.

Or you can opt for serious study, and get an MBA, or an advanced degree in engineering, or major in molecular biology and maintain the GPA necessary for acceptance to medical school. Of course, this means you'll miss out on the wild frat parties and the other "fun" stuff many associate with college. But those with a clue understand that college is a means to an end, and adulthood lasts 50 or more years longer than college.

College == Health Care?
The genesis of the "rush to college" is similar to that of the explosion of health care costs. Washington has poured a huge amount of money into college tuition assistance, loans for college expenses, and so forth. Money equals demand. So by federal action, the demand for college "services" ballooned while the supply of its most important "service," the "good life" a college degree would provide the graduate, remained relatively constant.

Atop that, state governments got into the act by massively expanding the state university systems and subsidizing their expense. With the value of a diploma from a government-run high school falling quickly, it was made to seem that college was the only guarantor of success in adulthood. With all that government money flowing into it, the barrier to entry practically disappeared.

But you get what you pay for. Government-subsidized college education has turned our colleges and universities into a new sort of welfare system: one that provides a cushy, consequence-free existence to Marxist radicals, gender warriors, eco-loonies, and a host of other parasites on the body politic. Education? Improvement of the American mind? Not so much.

We ought to have known better.

Before I went to college...
...I couldn't even spel "graduate'.Now I are one.



Actually,the real value of college expierience is to introduce the student to the wide range of knowledge out there in the world,and then spend the rest of his life educating himself.If money is the goal,come out of high school and be a plumber's apprentice.That can mean a very good life for you and your family.Remember Joe the plumber?

BTW,where is "DR" Douglas this fine morning?Can't wait for his insight!

perception
Many people of the white collar class have looked down on me as an auto service tech. They went to college, graduated & little do they know I earn more than them actually doing things that keep people rolling. In 3 years of college I never developed a desire to pursue a major. Yet in the summer of my junior year undergrad, a part-time job as a auto service tech apprentice was very satisfying. Without the debt & with much humility. (This career is very challenging & difficult technically) Besides many in the trade attempted to persuade me to pursue the good life as an educated college grad. Go figure, some of my "then" role models bought into the hype as well. Any hoo, I see many Graduates who have ridiculous majors in Political correct educational boondoggles that have no job in the real world. Saddle with massive debt & emotional damage; they should sue the teachers & the schools or the deans who have failed. Though most do do well by becoming competent in something relevant in the modern economy. I love this journalist. he is real practical

Amen, hallelujah!
This scam is finally being exposed in an effective manner. Law school students are especially at risk, though really -- who cares. But still, these santimonious hypocrites who call themselves "professors" are more than willing to sell their "services" as being in the best interest of students and the public, when really they are out to get every cent they can from these kids. Higher Ed is the biggest scumbag bailout that there is, and 95% of them will tell you it is the CAPITALISTS who are greedy! What a 100% crock.

The Price of Admission
If you work in gov't/military contracting, having a college degree is the price of admission. No one cares *what* your degree is in, only that you have one. My degree is in Philosophy/Religion, but I work as a software engineer (completely self taught). I didn't need the degree for this work, but it was required.

We need to go back to standardized aptitude tests to determine qualifications in a particular field. They've been considered racist, thus the proliferation of the college degree. However, people can learn the skills more quickly and cheaply than going to college for 4-5 years.

Real Estate
I didn't go to college. I went to Real Estate school and I'm just fine thank you very much. My brother is a Senior Systems Engineer for a large computer company and he didn't attend college either. Go figure. Thanks for exposing the scam.

Education is a Mess
It's the idea of the universal curriculum program in general. A friend of mine is a former teacher and outright quit the field because of how the education system in this country is run. Kids are pigeonholed right from the start based on hard-line age brackets. They're then all funneled through the exact same curriculums throughout their primary and secondary educations. He was fresh out of college and was immediately handed the most difficult assignment, struggling students. The laggers are given the inexperienced teachers and the advanced, which basically teach themselves, have the best teachers. Not only is this backwards, but he realized that most of his student had no business being there. He figured out that it was doing no one any good to try and teach his class algebra and that many of his students belonged out in the working world, learning a trade and not trying to fight through academics. As apprentices or in trade school, his students would have been able to do something valuable and self-fulfilling as opposed to wasting time and emotional energy fighting a compulsory school system.

Academics isn't for everyone, yet we have a system that tries to shove everyone through the exact same path. This instills the attitude that school is 100% required in life and leads colleges to develop degrees that students can pass but are clearly of no value and don't even require a classroom to succeed in the field. Law, communications, art, politics, language studies, history, minority studies, criminal justice.

University is not Trade School
What Rachele and all her Generation Whine classmates got wrong is this: THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A TRADE IN THE WRONG PLACE. University education has NEVER been about learning a trade that will make you a living. A UNIVERSITY EDUCATION TEACHES YOU HOW TO LIVE. People who had the right kind of parents who gave them classical literature to read instead of the Sweet Valley Twins and People Magazine had their appetite whetted for a world in which they did not live but with which they wanted to engage. A classical education, once restricted to gentlemen who already HAD a living, fits a person to associate with anyone in the world and understand (unless one is Prince O) why Iran and Afghanistan cannot share the same translators, and when someone in a pub says wryly *Thus malt does more than Milton can/to justify Gods ways to Man* the educated person does not say *Did you make that up?*

And most importantly today a person with a classical education understands why the brouhaha in the Middle East is fated to go on until Judgment Day, and knows that Toronto is not in Italy, and can ask for change in Switzerland, find the washroom in Russia, and not get his face slapped in Quebec.

I have a classical degree and I did not need it for any of the careers I have followed; my only saleable skills when I got out of University were typing and Spanish. Today I speak three languages in addition to English because I took Latin in school (and I can sing a Latin Mass) and can do a real estate deal in Spanish or French. I have travelled in 42 states and 20+ countries (I have been to England alone 20+ times) and have been told that I *dont sound like an American.* I went to school for that too.

And I can quote poetry for all occasions which has helped my bosses deliver speeches without embarrassing themselves.

A university education can be of immense value of you IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR. If you want to party for 4 years, there are cheaper ways to do it.

Education is a Mess Pt. 2
A great example is language studies. I'm just as proficient in Mandarin Chinese with nothing more than a $50 Burlitz computer program, a $10 Mandarin-English dicitionary and streaming Chinese language programs over the internet as someone who blew $100,000 at a college so some teacher could lecture him on the subject. I saved $99,940 to learn the same thing.

An academic environment is best used when dedicated facilities a person would not otherwise have access to are needed or when a person learns better when they have a professor to bounce ideas off of. A hybrid example, as noted above, is anything to do with computer programming. People can easily learn this on their own but there are intricacies that are difficult to master so it would be beneficial to some people to actually go down a degree path for it.

Degrees are best for fields that demand a conceptual understanding of the field before entry. I went through accounting and in hindsight I could have done it without paying a school tuition, I would have never gotten a job without the degree saying I knew at least, conceptially, what I as doing. The same goes with other fields like engineering or medicine. Even with that, there are few jobs out in the world that have any use for a degree. Any college degree that doesn't have a non-teaching job out in the marketplace that absolutely requires the degree in question should immediately be cut from ever curriculum that receives any kind of taxpayer funding. Those degrees (law, art, communications, etc) waste 4+ years of potential economic productivity to teach a skill that can easily be self-taught or has no value to our society on any level.

Let's Look at
a few people who did okay without a college degree:

Abe Lincoln
Harry Truman
Bill Gates
Thomas Edison
Chuck Yeager
Henry Ford
Mark Twain
And the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, some things require college... I want the guy doing my heart bypass to have a medical degree, for example.

Once again
I don't think we are asking the right questions. As Stossel points out, Obama is very intent on seeing every American go to college. Why?

I graduated with a Bachelor's Degree in 1992. The most politically liberal I have ever been in my life was in the immediate aftermath of the four years I spent in college. I identified as conservative, I identified as Republican, but coming out of college, I held some ideas in my head which, looking back, make me cringe. I believed whole-heartedly in global warming. I believed that there were some messes that government WAS equipped to handle. I believed that Bush the First's talk of "Family Values" was so much pap tailored to win the vote of the Christian Right, whom I despised (even though I still identified as a Christian)!!!

In 1992, I considered voting for Clinton rather than Bush.

As I said, I now hang my head in shame, thinking about the idiotic "ideas" I held back then. My parents raised and taught me better, but four years of liberal arts college was enough to partially indoctrinate me.

So let's really ask ourselves why it is that the Dems are so hot to get every American into a four-year college...

Human development
Well, this woman is a fool. She has a worthless degree in human development. As a result, I am not crying over her stupidity in not securing a well paying job. In life, getting a valued degree in science or high technology would have been a better way to go. But alas, she is whining about the unfairness when she ought to blame herself for her predicament. But darn it, it is society's fault, not her own, for her problems. Yeah, right?

I wish I had known...
that college is a crock before I became who I am today: A college dropout with mounds of debt who eventually attended cooking school. I have been told by a close relative that despite my trade school education, I will be looked down upon forever because I don't have that sacred piece of paper.

Thank God this finally getting out !!
Colleges have been running this scam for years now and thank God it is finally being exposed.
The lie that you will earn an additional million dollars is one of the main reasons that colleges have increased tuition rates. Rates that have far exceeded the rate of inflation. But hey, the poor kids are told they will be flipping burgers if they don't go to college so they go hopelessly into debt to save their future.

Little did they know they were just consumers of a great big advertised campaign.
Maybe half of the colleges in America need to go broke.
The reason Obama wants everyone to go to college is because they are indoctrinating grounds for future liberals. Our tax dollars are going to fund kids to learn to hate America.

A similar article was in Forbes recently. It would be worth looking up.

I have A BSEE and am doing good as an engineer, but I know lots of people that have basically worthless degrees doing work that they could have done without even a HS diploma.

Doug has a good point
If one goes to college as work prep, they'll do well. Most vocational careers are first and foremost job training. Most Bachelor of Arts degrees are sought as an escape from the real world, not prepping for it.

I was part of a 20 year follow up from high school graduation in BC, Canada. It was a 5-part opinion survey, taken at graduation, 5 years after, 10, 15, and 20. Those who went to college overwhelmingly thought it was necessary for their job or lifestyle. Those who didn't had a slim majority who said they were glad they didn't and that they got out into the workforce immediately (and got 4 years ahead of "everyone else"). And that's with the Canadian pay-little system and a smaller debtload!

Requiring degrees that aren't required
Several posters have commented that the college degree that was required for their employment was not necessary to do the actual work.

I don't remember where I read it, but one of the main reasons why a degree is “required” for such positions is that it provides the employer with information about the job candidate that can't be obtained directly without risking a discrimination suit.

A degree tells the employer that the candidate’s background and character have been at least minimally vetted by the college that awarded him the degree, that the candidate had at least enough perseverance to complete the degree requirements, and that the candidate was probably not convicted of a felony.

College Cost
What would happen if we done alway with all these college sports programs, and focused on getting our young people in college for the true education and higher learning?

Why is it the college system spends millions on the sports programs, and not millions on giving poorer young people an opportunity to get an education without being able to play basketball, football, volleyball, soccer, and the list goes on?

You know why? It's really not about the education anymore, it's about building a college school name to pull in the money.

Signed, Truly Concerned.

smg in Ohio, Reply #24
"The lie that you will earn an additional million dollars is one of the main reasons that colleges have increased tuition rates."

Actually, an even bigger reason is government subsidy: Grants, scholarships, financial aid and other incentives have so increased the demand for colleges (without increasing the supply) that normal economic laws have kicked in. Tuition in the last 40 years has increased by very nearly the same amount by which tuition costs have been subsidized.

Geez, you would think this would have been foreseeable! Oh yeah... economists like Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell predict this sort of thing ALL THE TIME... but politicians never listen!

Tuition and the economy
It's easy enough for a college to raise tuition, but that doesn't mean they'll automatically get the same number of students that they got a year ago. With a recession on, there's just no guarantee that colleges will be able to keep tuition rates high.

Also, with respect to doctors, yes, I would want a doctor to have a medical degree. But is it absolutely necessary for doctors to get a full, four-year undergraduate degree? To get that degree generally means taking classes (like literature) that have nothing to do with medicine. What's the point? Why waste their time?

Depends on the field
To more or less sum up what others have written; if you spend 4 years partying your way through college, or studying some victimization major ("womyn's""studies," "kweer""studies," fill-in-your-favorite-minority "studies"), you're going to wind up with a mountain of debt and a dead-end job.

But, if you're the type of person who will do that, it's unlikely you'd do any better in a vocational school.

If Stossel really wants to make people's blood boil, he can do a follow-up to see how many "remedial" courses are offered at universities -- that is, courses to bring high school graduates up to speed on knowledge they should have acquired in high school. Even with today's university standards, it's significant.

AudioR10
Unfortunately that is not what is getting sold by the Universities. If they sold a University education as a means of "creating a complete person", no one but the rich would attend.

Mr Sowell covers the same topic in his book about Economic Myths.

It is time to just have certification centers where those that learn on their own can be certified. Forget the huge inefficiencies that a University presents.

Think about it. If the University were run by brilliant people, don't you think that they would come up with a better way of educating than the one that has been in place for thousands of years!!



Sciences
and business often attract more conservative students. The arts and humanities are full of people paying a lot of money to learn nuance, revisionist history, and qu##r theory.
Also, the humanities faculties usually have little help to offer how to parlay the "knowledge" they impart into a viable career. The track they usually suggest is... drumroll please... an M.A. followed by a Ph.D. Basically, it's a "be like me" sort of club. I received zero help from any faculty in 1970 with a B.A. in Literature. Fortunately, I had a strong body and experience in sawmill work, so I got a job directly out of college in... a sawmill! Surprised? I don't begrudge manual labor years, I supported my wife and growing family. It's a good thing to do. During that time, guess what? I morphed into a conservative while having to pay bills, raise kids, watch Carter, and so on.

Unemployed
I am unemployed. I attended three years of college, but have no degree. I have had my own business and have been successfully employed and contributed to business where I have worked for over 20 years now. I have marketable skills. However, every job I apply for says "degree required" and no one will even talk to me. I'm actually going to sell my house and move to find something.

When I had my own business I hired MBAs who could only be described as less than stellar thinkers! I disagree that a degree is not required. It does mean that you've accomplished something----and that means something to the HR department (even if it shouldn't).

If I were starting out . . .
in the work world today, I would be shut out of my own field of work (electrical engineering). I went to a well-known "proprietary" school in the Detroit area in the early 1970's. There were no "fluff courses" to waste time with. At the end of the program, (two years) graduates were ready to go out into the work world and were eagerly sought by local employers. Employers knew that a graduate from this institution (without a degree program) would "hit the ground running" and be a valuable asset to the company. "Internship" was unheard of. Most of the instructors did not have "college degrees" but had extensive experience in industry.
It is unfortunate that many qualified individuals are shut out of certain opportunities for lack of that "piece of paper".

Everyone Needs a College Education
And once everyone has a college education and gets a good paying job, they can sit at home with nowhere to spend the money.

Unless we think college graduates are going to cook steaks in restaurants, tote bricks to build homes, sew clothes, wash cars, sell movie tickets and pop popcorn and all the other millions of jobs that need to be done.

Contrary to popular belief, everyone can't be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or be in "marketing" and "advertisement". We've already got millions of illegals here doing many of the jobs because our young folks are sitting around in college classrooms.

But maybe we all should take a Reality 101 course to understand this.

Thanks buddy
You know, even though you look like a freak love-child between Heraldo and Will Ferrell, your article made me appreciate and feel proud of my technical college degree for the first time ever - so thank you for this article. I just framed the degree last weekend and when I get home today, I'm going to be sure to hang it up on the wall and be proud. Thanks for that!

Grade inflation
and the dumbing down of high school curricula have contributed to much of this mess.

But I do agree with Audi(whatever)- and there are schools (such as Hillsdale) which are rigorous in the "fuzzy" subjects.

In any event, I don't see the point in getting $100k+ in debt to get an English degree from Yale.

Terry in GA
"Unless we think college graduates are going to cook steaks in restaurants" - I find this statement offensive Terry. I happen to hold a bachelors Degree from Johnson and Wales. Payed about 80K for it. I now make over 100K to cook that steak of yours. I am not unusal....Just look at the food network....MORON

My experince
I went to college straight out of high school and managed to get a 4-year degree in only 6.5 years, with the help of scholarships, and grants. After graduation, I worked several jobs over the years: babysitting, bookkeeping, temp, pizza delivery were the main positions I held. Half a decade later, I went back to school at the local "vo-tech". Attending part-tine, paying for it myself, I earned an associate's degree. 20 years later, I'm earning $55K (or more) a year at my job. Guess which "institute of higher education" gave me the skills I needed to get my job.

The family joke is that I got my batchelor's degree first, then my associate degree - next time I go to school, I'll be working on my GED!

Changing times
When I was younger most of my friends and I assumed that after we were forced by out parents to finish high school we would go into the service and then to a trade school. Blue collar tradesman jobs were once considered to be respectable, good paying jobs to have. Today in several parts of the country these are considered the jobs Americans don't wany to do because most of the people working those jobs are speaking spanish.

I must have been asleep for a long time becaue woking construction of any type was considered a great job to have. You either started at the bottom as a general laborer or you had to have been trained in a vocational school to get the better job.

I agree, not everybody is wired to go to college. Not everybody can earn a living with a BA in english or womens studies and in some areas people with accounting degrees are having trouble finding work. We have to get away from the notion that if you didn't go to college your less than first class.

Could they learn to read first?
Would it be out of the question if we concentrated on teaching kids how to read, write and the fundamentals of mathematics...before we send them off to college to get a degree in Aerospace Engineering?

I'm just saying.

A good start and a positive sign, might be teenagers being able to make change for a dollar. Or perhaps being able to read "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." and discern from that statement that it only applies to Congress...which is why they were identified by name. And if they could master that, then possibly they could graduate to the understanding that school children are not "Congress" and their praying is not "making law" and thus it is impossible for them to be violating the First Amendment.

If we could start with those couple of things that Jethro Bodine and Ernest T. Bass would have no problem with...maybe we could then start talking about college educations.

I'm just saying.

Tony
Thanks for misunderstanding my point entirely.

But you did get a chance to let everyone know that you make 100K. Good job.

terry
Jethro and Ernest T? You're dating yourself...

How I Got a High-Paying Job
I have a Harvard BA and a top-50 MBA and am working my dream job: high-paying with a short commute and no travel. Plus I can work from home when my daughter's sick.

But my degrees have nothing to do with it. I got it by purchasing a laptop, some computer books, and getting 3 top computer certifications. Anybody, even a high-school dropout, can do that. And the cost? $1500, plus I get to keep the laptop.

Other costs
Students should also consider the opportunity cost (4-5 years lost wages) and the fact, even if they do get a better job, those the marginal dollars will be taxed. For me, these costs were over 50% of the total.

Makes for a long break-even period, unfortunately.

Whack
Who'd a thunk that a degree in human development wouldn't bring in the big bucks? I'm baffled on this one.

Once Upon a Time ...
Forbes had a similar article last week, mostly focusing on the scam of college loans:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html

I made my 13-year-old read it. His comment afterward? "Dangerous." (Of course, I also had that kid read Peter Kreeft's _Best Things in Life_ which is a bit subversive about the whole college thing, too.)


Right on
Although good things also happen to college kids, sometimes unexpectedly, the article is spot on. I work in student services at a small private "liberal arts" college. With a modest endowmnet, enrollment is our lifeblood. We routinely see kids coming in who are destined to fail.

Too Many Anecdotes
The more relevant facts paint a much different picture than the random anecdotes presented here. Differentiating between meaningful data and anecdote must be one of those things they teach in college.

Here are the facts. In 2007, Male high school grads earned a rounded average of $44,000. AS degrees produced an average of $52,000. Bachelors degree holders earned an average of $77,000. MA holders earned $97,000

Unemployment rates for those four categories are 4.4%,3.6%,3.0%,2.1% and 1.8%.

Even more critical are long term earnings data which show that anyoen with less than a BA has LOST ground in the last twenty years, earning less in constant dollars. Bachelor's hlders eked out a tiny gain. Only advanced degree holders are making substantially more money.

The conclusion that college degree do not pay off is simply not supported by the facts. That said, it is also quite true that there are plenty of ways to get ahead without one. The rpoblem is not the colleges and Universities. The problem is that virtually every parent wants their kid to get a degree.




Our children
I love how socialist democrats throw around "our children." It's offensive to me. My children DO NOT belong to Obama or the government.
I spent 36 years of my life working with highly educated people. The majority of them and I mean majority, had no common sense what so ever and were out in the ether all alone. In the vernacular, dumb as a box of rocks. If it's the educated who gave us Obama, then God helps us all.

Four year institutions
are not job training programs. These institutions do offer degrees that correspond to immediate employment e.g. nursing, education, accounting, but for the most part four year institutions exist for a general liberal arts education.

We should think long and hard as a society if pushing as many students as we can into BA programs is wise or affordable. Even better colleges now offer remedial courses because of this idea that everyone should attend college. I would argue that if you require remedia courses you do not belong in a four year institution. You are wasting your time and societal resources. I would further argue that if you are in college just to get a job you do not belong there unless the job you want is something like nursing, etc. listed above.

Unfortunately, we now require a four year degree for most jobs whether it is relevant to the job or not. We, also, need to change societal attitudes that someone with a BA is somehow superior to those who do not have a degree. We, also, need to stop looking down our noses at bue collar workers. Many parents are actually horrified at the thought of their child becoming a skilled tradesman rather than a degreed paper pusher.

I always advise young people
that are planning to attend college that if they expect to be successful in their careers they should expect to follow their BA degree with a professional or some other advanced degree. I think colleges need to be honest with students and parents about the realities of employment and career advancement without education beyond the BA degree.

College?
I have a daughter who is graduating from high school in May and we've been applying to multiple colleges. Thankfully when we explained what the fiscal damage that paying for a high cost "education" from the elite school she had her heart set on attending would do to her for the future, she took our advise and enrolled at an in-state public college that will get her the same degree.
I have a degree and it took me 22 years to complete it. I finished while I was still in the Air Force and it has payed off nicely for me. The degree itself is worthless, but just having the degree earns me about 25-30K more annually. The kicker is that my degree has nothing to do with the job I'm in. I'm all for vocational schools if that's what people want to do. College is not for everybody. I certainly would have wasted a lot of money if I'd gone to college directly from high school.

The scam works because...
...we are a nation of people who worship the Religion of Education. The mere mention of the word "Education" sends - as Chris Matthews might say - "a tingle up our leg".

Our sun rises and sets on the notion of "Education". So it's no surprise that hordes of Americans are marched-off to the classroom to receive the Holy Communion.

We continue to slide further and further down the academic totem-pole as compared to other nations. But that is of no consequence to us as long as we continue fill the offering plates and make our sacrifices to the Gods of Education.

If your life is in a mess or if you have gone astray...give your life to Education. Education is the answer and salvation. Education will feed the poor and heal the sick. Give praise to thy name and saviour: Education.

'Totally Agree
My folks told me to get a degree in a profession or stay out of college. However, who would have thought that Graphic Artists would be able to make lots of money-until the computer graphics field came into being. That said, I know a kid that went to a specialized computer graphics school for a year or two and is making lots of money in the computer game making business.

Our son is learning how the chicken sandwich business works until he decides his chosen dream career. Maybe then he will attend college or maybe not.

Frank L. Wright never got a degree, R. Buckminster Fuller never got a degree and neither did Rush Limbaugh or Warren Buffett.

taking the bs out
Young people should be advised that many of the programs that offer degrees in college are truly bs. While some can succeed in these fields, you really should enter a field that has a track record for paying well. I recently attempted to discourage a college freshman from majoring in history but I was unsuccessful. Oh well.

Second Rate
For all to many years, a lot of High School counselors, teachers, and parents have this idea that community colleges and vocational colleges should be students thier emergency route if 4-yr college does not work out. Thanks to Mr. Stossel and others that are seeing the light that a community college is a great way to earn a degree and jobs that are in demand even in slow times. Maybe one day this frog of the academia will turn into the prince.

"University" means little these days
One part of this problem is that the concept of a "University" has been all but destroyed by its application to institutions which barely qualify as colleges. When Universities were first established hundreds of years ago in Europe, they were truly elite in terms of learning experience. Now any post-high school frat-party cluster with a semblance of a Master's degree program can get the state to call it a "University," graduating people who don't measure up to Jethroe Bodine's "sixth grade education" he got at "Oxford--Mississippi, that is!"

College is not a Job Guarantee
I take exception to the belief that a college degree is the path to prosperity. A college education is just that: an education which is desired by those who have a love of learning. It isn't a guarantee of jobs, career success, or prosperity. When we separate the myth from the reality we may be able to return to a once commonly held belief that college educates individuals, it doesn't prepare them to do a job. In my view, that was the distinction between college and vocational school.

I must be correct because philosophy, calculus, physics, chemistry and a slew of other subjects don't typically fit into a job path.

I agree!
What an awesome article. I hope financial aid administrators read it! They need to stop those commercials enticing kids to go to college and use financial aid to finance it.

here we go again
where do you folks get the idea that potential employers can't ask you any questions about your background?they ask about everything.birthdate, ss#,medical history,work history,education history,whether you have a condition which will keep you from performing your duties,have you ever filed for workman's comp,what organizations do you belong to,are you married and does your wife work,then after that you get a drug screen,a criminal backround check and an mvr and a personality test.and this isn't just one isolated company.this happens over and over.

If you lack ambition
all of the college degrees in the world will not save you.

College is valuable, but let's face facts it is not for everyone and there is no shame in that. Saying that college is the way to go is part of the cancer metastasizing in this country known as elitism.

Another problem with college graduates is the minute they earn a degree they think they get to skip a few rungs of the ladder. You still have to start at the bottom.

I do think there is an incorrect
perception here about humanities majors. My undergraduate degree is in History and Social Science. I have had a good career with a good income and the rigorous research and writing required of a History major has benefitted me greatly in the jobs I have held. The demanding requirements to obtain my BA in History also enabled me to breeze through two graduate programs.

college?
the problem just doesnt start there. education is a lifelong project, starting the day you are born, and ends very early for some, while never ending for others. which group a person ends up in is very strongly determined by attitudes they learn at home before ever starting school, subsequently by peer influence. the majority of schools offer peer pressure that more than negates any positive influence the school may exert, and could be done away with without any reduction in education. for education to ever mean anything in this country, we need to have an early and aggressive weeding out program that gets rid of the negative peer pressure. i propose parallel schools, and the choice left up to the student or his behavior. in one school, excellent educational progress would be the standard, in the other, rocks would be carried around a track for 8 hours per day. 80% of colleges could be eliminated without any reduction in education achieved, and those actually in college would be learning if properly motivated. if not properly motivated, they really ought not to be there, and their money would be better spent on a long vacation, while their time would be better spent if they got a job and worked. under curmudgeons system, no illegal immigrants would be needed because previously lazy useless americans would be busy doing something productive.

I disagree...
How many of these discouraged souls would be complaining if they were not deeply in debt. There is no substitute for a 4 year college degree. Slackers who begin and then drop out, were slackers before, and remain slackers afterwards.

Anyone who spends $100,000 obtaining a private college degree in the social sciences, perhaps with the exception of economics, is simply courting career disaster. Ditto for a teaching degree.

But the total experience of four years of college leaves a graduate with a lifetime of friends, experiences, and memories - a foundation upon which to build a life. It also proves to employers that a prosective employee can set and achieve long term goals - and play by the rules.

Go ahead and learn a trade first. Lay bricks, frame buildings, be a soldier. Then work your way through school. But set goals and standards. Then live by those standards and achieve those goals.

And don't borrow money!

If the money wasted on Education...
...was still in our economy, we'd not be in this financial mess. And we could vacation in our island homes to escape one of the coldest winters in history...during this "Global Warming" hoax that our education has taught us to believe in.

College is not for kids
The biggest mistake most kids make is going to college directly out of high school. I did that and lasted a year and a half.

I went back to college about 10 years later, after I had some real life experience, and did much, much better.

Most kids directly out of high school have no idea what they want to do with their life. They have no concept of how life really works, so most of the coursework is out of context and makes no sense to them.

There is nothing wrong with college, or an advanced degree. But the degree isn't going to make you wealthy, happy, or even employable. You have to do that yourself.

Terry
The money "wasted" on education IS still in our economy. It paid my salary, and the salaries of my eomployees, which then paid for my house, my car, my food, my vacations, etc., which provided jobs for others who spent for cars, houses, food, vacations, etc.

Nothing wrong with spending on an education. Just don't go into debt for it.

I take exception
...with the notion that a degree in English is "worthless." Although it's true that if I had it to do over again, I would have gone to nursing school, because my BA in English really hasn't done much in terms of being able to get a job. I could get emergency certification as a teacher, if I wanted to go that route. But the value of an education is much more than just one's earning potential. I wanted to go into technical writing, but 50 or so resumes later, and finding out that everyone wanted 5 years' prior experience, and ending up back working in medical billing...yeah, if I were pessimistic about it, I might too say that my English degree is "worthless." But the overall experience and accomplishment are worth something, if only to me.

And hey! I graduated from a university that is known for its women's studies department, and I still came out a libertarian! So, so much for indoctrination.

P.S. I'm going back to school, to become a veterinary technologist (step above a vet tech). I find animals easier to deal with than people, on the whole.

Also, I graduated without any student loan debt.

I agree with Steve
Having a bachelor's does show that you are willing to complete something significant and that you do have that discipline that is required to complete the degree.

Do What Now?
qhoratius (formerly povidus)
Location: CA
Reply # 2
Date: Jan 28, 2009 - 12:49 AM EST

Nowhere in this article does Stossel even come close to eluding that all higher education is a waste in general.

That's what you get for going with the cliffs notes version.

What's really maddening ...
is the fact that college professors have, for the most part, been able to remain above the fray. On the whole, I'd say college professors appear to be the most progressive group in America. While they teach the evils of capitalism, they themselves demand greater salaries and benefits which ultimately drive up the costs of their product.

Do they care? Oh no, because the liberal politicians they get elected continue to subsidise education, which can be read as subsidising their wages.

SCAM? In the immortal words of Sarah Palin, "You bethca!"

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Some cons agree with some libs
I agree with Stossel. For most of you college is or would be a waste of time. I also agree with that nasty, unforgiving, and uncaring Bell Curve.

When I was younger it was thought only the top 20% of the intelligence bell curve would benefit from going to college. Unlike Lake Woebegone, all children are not above average.

For many kids, going to college is an ego trip for the parents. For most it is a place to mark time until the funds dry up and they figure out how they are going to make a living. And a few benefit from all the disciplines of education.

Virtually every respondent to this column has viewed a college degree as a passport to a better life and their life experience has told them otherwise. You are all correct. Dont pay for you kids to go to college. Don't co sign for their loans.

Education is not a means to an end. Education is an end in itself. If you can't understand that bit of knowledge, you and your kids deserve to be 100k in debt at the end of 4 years and the temp owners of the next foreclosure.


There are some things
that one can only learn in a university setting, and once one is old enough to not care about grades, those things can be fascinating. I took a semester course in the physics of the Josephson Junction although I have neither math nor physics background, because I wanted to find out about things that can be in two places at once or can travel without moving. (Think Dune). I told the professor up front that I had no background and would definitely fail the course, I only wanted to absorb as much as I possibly could out of the sheer desire to learn. He promised not to call on me and I promised not to interrupt him with silly questions. There was no other way for me to learn as much as I did about this subject as I could not understand the books I tried to read.

However, when I was at university and needed the grades, I could not take courses like this which I was guaranteed to fail. And that is a shame, because I probably could have learned something about fields I would have enjoyed.

soliton - 100K English degree from Yal
A $100K English degree from Yale will get you an interview with an investment bank, into medical school, into law school, or any number of other graduate programs. Besides that, and English degree from Yale is simply an interesting education.

Broadening the horizon

We do know the more years of college experience one has, the more narrow minded that person becomes.

The more years of actually real world life experience, the more open minded a person becomes.

Stossel gets it mostly right
It's important to be honest about the potential benefits of college. I train people in the arts. In general I try to point them toward vocational programs like graphic design or medical/scientific illustration. I also warn them that they are embarking on the most "dangerous" degree in the university system, because they're in the most danger of getting absolutely NOTHING for their time and money. On the other hand, things can be learned through the studio arts that cannot be learned anywhere else.

A college degree DOES confer status which on average turns into higher lifetime earnings. There are too many stories of people with marginal high school gratdes who go to college, find themselves, and benefit from the experience.

One main problem with students like Rachel Percell is that she appears to be quite passive. But where is the student's responsibility? I tell the art students that there are absolutely NO jobs "out there" for them. The art degree is primarily training for them to create their own jobs. This takes a high degree of motivation and maturity.

It may be that motivation and maturity by themselves would result in greater earnings. The question then is whether our culture benefits from an educated workforce.

Mr. Stossel gets it mostly right, but the upshot of his prescription is that we tell students that we've decided --through some mechanism -- that they won't benefit sufficiently from college.

I don't know how we'd know that. . .

good article
I find the english staff to be overtly liberal and all too willing to posit their philosophy rather than teach grammar. In the meantime they decry capitalism,(that is to say individuals free to engage in commerce unmolested by do-gooders) and the "obscene profits" they make. I pointed out the on-going extortion scam known as the college book store, which charges upwards of $200 for a single text book. Publishers partake in this merry-go-round often by merely switching the order of some chapters while making minimal edits such that they can force students to purchase the "new" text and make obsolete the "old" ones. Now there's an obscenity.

Otherwise the ubiquitous nature of the BA/BS simply reduces the marginal value of its worth, as it does any commodity.

Rivier
Second and third tier private colleges, unless they have name recognition or a very active alumni network, are generally not worth the increased tuition when compared to state schools at 1/2 to 1/10th the cost. A motivated student can get all the education they can handle at the state institutions. So why did Ms Percell spend $85K for something she could have gotten for $20? And where is her responsibility in all this?

col.
you won the prize for the most ridiculous comment of the day.considering this comes after a stossel column is quite a feat.congrats.

Terbreugghen
Maybe we could weed out students through some sort of standardized test? Oh that's right we're getting rid of those because they are clearly biased unlike HS grades.

Tony in FL
Sure, but can ya fork over a good recipe to pair with my 2005 Montrachet Chassagne? ;)

An English degree from Rivier
To contrast an English degree from Yale in my earlier post, an English degree from Rivier will most likely qualify one for a job as a food-server. But this does not diminish the intangible worth of this education.

Students attending elite institutions have the luxury of studying whatever they want. But for all the other institutions (Rivier, most state schools), if a student views the bachelor's as a path to work, then they need to treat their university as a trade school; that is, they do not have the luxury of pursuing an interesting education.

The College Scam
Once again Stossel nails it. This scam started in the 60's. I spent my working life as a union electrician. I got great training and always made a good living. Part of the problem is that to be successful at anything you have to work hard. Today's young have been taught that upon graduation from college they will immediately be promoted to president and make 250K a year. In the very near future, there is going to be a shortage of skilled tradesmen; electricians, plumbers, pipefitters, carpenters, and sheetmetal workers, to name a few. Parents, send your kids to trade school!

More to the point
This column really illustrates a silly vicious circles: The fact that the young lady is $85K in debt to an inferior college illustrates the stupidity that prevented her from attending a superior college.

College Degree
Not all college degrees are a waste of time. But if you major in something that is not marketable, then you are wasting your time. Don't major in history if you don't plan to be a teacher, don't major in liberal arts if you don't want to flip burgers. Many subjects are interesting to pursue if you have expendable cash, but you need to major in something that will get you a decent job, use some common sense. Minor in something that is your passion, so you can study it, just not depend on it for food.

Thank you John Stossel
I have said this for years and many times get the raised eyebrow look as if I have said global warming is a scam, lol.

Ours sons work part time and commute to a local university, no debt.

I want to cry for the students who have been tricked into the private university tuition scam.

President BO conned his way into the Ivy league and now acts like that should be the role model. What a loser

Roy from Il

Its not that ridiculous. You just have to be educated to understand why.

S&S
All schooling in America is a scam and sham. I taught at High School for 12 years and our education process was a mess. Books are too big (too many pages and ideas) to teach with any depth. All math and science books incorporate only metric measurements, none of our standard measurements are used--operative word is "none". Students learn neither system--metric is not relevant to them and standard is never seen. Students do poorly on tests as a result. Teachers are equally as ignorant, most cannot read,therefore; word problems, fractions, and geometric proofs are hardly ever taught because a teacher with a Math Ed degree is not competent enough to teach those concepts. Problems requiring use of square roots, like completing the square, quadratic equations are as a foreign language to most Math teachers. States that require Teacher Certification Tests experience teacher turn over due to repeated failures. Our education system is a rotten exercise in wasted money and disillusioned student graduates. Parents could care less; they rarely ever visited the school and I never had a parent drop in to watch me teach. I called parents and issued personal invitations to get them to attend parent conference nights. That produced only "spotty" results.

College is a Scam
I've known about this for years. As a graduate myself with two Bachelor's myself, I found the job market extremely competitive in spite of whatever credentials I supposedly had. I had to work at a grocery store just to make ends meet.

What was worse was when I started my own business. Though I had wanted to hire college grads, I found that I could hire someone straight out of high school (provided he could read and write) and get more out of him for less money starting out than I probably could out of a college grad who believes, by virtue of his college degree, he knows enough already that there's no need to train him at all. I know this is a generalization, but it's been my experience that a college grad expects a higher salary because of that diploma alone, and I know that if I simply hired him rather than a high school grad, I'd be out of business right now. With the HS grad, I can train and mold him, help develop a solid work ethic. With the college grad, who's been scammed to believe he's gonna make a million dollars, this is problematic to expect.

col.
so if i'm educated i'll know why but my mind will be closed.if i'm ignorant i'll have an open mind but won't know why lol.kind of catch-22 huh?with that kind of logic you could probably ghost-write for stossel lol.

kbTexan
I agree, college is not for kids. I went to college straight out of high school, and barely did enough work to pass. It was a complete waste of my time and my parents money.

When I went back to school in my late 20s, I knew what I wanted to study, and I was motivated by years of struggling to earn a living. Early in the first year I slipped back into my poor work habits, and made the shocking realization that my laziness was only hurting me. I then became a diligent A-student.

analogy
Education is like sports: In sports, the game plan/scheme alone will not lead you to victory-You need players to step up and execute that scheme. Same with education, the knowledge/degree alone will not guarantee success without the person taking charge and showing the initiative to succeed.

Where to Begin?
Stossel's article is an excellent starting point about K-College education. The problem is where to begin and proceed with the discussion? One could discuss that the reason our children aren't prepared for the real world is that the education system in which they are enrolled was designed to meet the needs of the Industrial Revolution. How can we educate/train children for the 21st century using an archaic model?

Second, I agree wholeheartedly with Stossel about a college education. I attended college to become a teacher. Sadly, much of what I learned in my teacher preparation coursework was worthless. My double major Liberal Arts/English that I needed to enter the teaching program has proven to be of greater long-term value. I find that I am comfortable talking with folks from various backgrounds. Why? Because Liberal Arts is a hodgepodge degree where one studies a bit of everything. Some may think that is useless. I disagree. Because I have a basic knowledge of science, math, history, and language, I know enough to ask the right questions and not make a fool of myself.

Others in this thread have asked roughly the same question, is an education merely for employability or to broaden a person's thinking? In summary, I think my grandmother who lived to be 100 fared better in the world because she had what is now called a "classical education." At school she was taught to think critically by engaging Shakespeare and other Dead White Males. At home she was taught practical skills that she needed to survive. The two forms of education served her well as she and my grandfather owned their own business and raised a family.

Major Matters
The value of your education depends greatly upon what you major in. Study something with rigorous requirements -- math, engineering or medicine, to name a few and your education should pay off. Study women's studies, gender studies (anything which includes the word "studies", education or the soft sciences and you might as well skip college and go straight to your career at Starbucks.

Budgeting anyone?
"She borrowed big to pay about $24,000 a year to attend Rivier College in New Hampshire."

HUH??? What are students spending on? I live in NJ. NJ is blessed with the highest average cost of college. My first two years of work were spent at a community college (actually it was 3 and a half years since I was a slacker and took my time rather then take a full course load, got serious when I went for my bachelor's). My next two were at the lowest cost regionally accredited school I could find (and I commuted rather then lived on campus, the horror!). When I pursued my master's degree I followed the same strategy. The net cost of my college education in total came to about $35,000. Again, this is in the state with the highest cost of living and highest education costs in the country. What are students spending on?

Useless Degrees
Welcome to my world.

After getting RiFed from the Army by Clinton's cuts, I made the mistake of going back to school to be able to "get that good job" to support my disabled wife.

Clue: Graduate from a University - even a "name" Uni with a fresh undergrad degree at 33 and nobody wants to talk to you.

And the Trades aren't interested either.

Worst $40K at 8.5% I was ever talked into.

FWIW, maybe Freddie & Fannie wouldn't have failed if they were as agressive at collections as Sallie... who doesn't care how much you make. They want theirs.

Patriots United
resistnet.com

Why College?
Obama wants everyone to go to college so that the liberal indoctrination can be continued. It is where the most radical part of their religion is preached. His highest priests are teaching their crap there. They are trying to get us all to drink the Kool-Aid!

On Education
Am I the only one that sees the irony of Rachele getting a degree in Human Development?
There must be better examples!

I myself barely graduated high school, dabbled in some community colleges and eventually got a job turning screws in a factory. This ultimately led to a career in product marketing making $100K per year. I've worked with Harvard MBA's, Wharton, Stanford, Duke, etc. None of whom I was ever that impressed with. When I asked them how much of their MBA do they now actually use, the typical answer was "about 5%".

I knew I had to work harder and be smarter to prove myself because I did not have a degree and it benefited me. I taught myself to be better from reading business books with more current methodologies and practices. I read case studies and self-help books.

I never for a minute regretted not going to college. I merely conducted myself, spoke and wrote as if I had. Most people assumed I had an MBA. I faked it until I made it.

Secret to Success
The only determinative factor/secret to success I've ever found seems to be whether or not you were "popular" in school.

If you are an extrovert with the ability to smooze/"network", your odds are pretty good - regardless of "degree".

OTOH, if you are in Introvert/Aspie there are literally no jobs for you if you aren't an Engineer/Geek... especially if you are an "older" graduate (anything out of your 20s)

9 years of job hunting since I graduated and I still haven't broken 30net...

So true
vocational training is where it's at; so are the different two-year community college programs, e.g., digital electronics, real estate, automotive etc., as opposed to the four-year degree programs that are vanishing.
I remember in the early 80s talking to an automotive teacher; right out of high school earn $29,000, about what a teacher was making then. The instructor heard this from a car dealer service manager. The teacher rounded on the guy for telling his class they could make $29,000 a year out of high school. The manager told him to check it at. He did and found out it was true.
During the same period the son of a friend who worked in the carpet industry told me that starting carpet layers made $52,000 a year! And the solarian installers made more. This was $20,000 plus more than a 4-year teacher made.
A little research and one can have a nice career on the cheap.

The College Scam-Not
This article is wrong on many levels. First, college is always what you make of it. I am sorry that Rachele paid $24,000/year and landed a "lowly" desk job. $24,000 is about what I paid in total for my Bachelor's Degree at a private school. I paid out an andditional $30,000 for my Master's. She should have done her research and checked out more cost-effective schools. There are schools that offer classes online that have no sports teams, student dormitories, etc. I attended out of state and had to find my own room and board and I worked for three years.

Nobody told her to pursue a degree in Human Development. Nobody even knows what that is. I picked a degree in Accounting because I ultimately wanted to learn about investing and Finance AND ALSO because Accounting were where the most jobs were in the classifieds. Sounds like she made a poor choice and did not bother to see how this degree would make her competitive in the workplace.

I picked a good college that specialized in getting grads jobs. As a senior, I had to take a course called career development where we learned interview techniques and how Graduate Placement wanted our resumes prepared. Consequently, I was able to market myself aggressively and score a lot of interviews while a staff on the college grounds contacted me regularly as I was finishing classes and faxed my resume everywhere they could think of trying to get me interviews as I finished my schooling. Not every college does that. Undergraduates should be looking at the school's Graduate Placement offices first to see what they do before signing with an expensive school like Rivier.

What is good money? Stossel does not say. He mentions that electricians make an average of $48,000/year. I could not live on that. As an accountant and investment adviser, the sky is the limit in terms of what I can make.


Tell Ya What
All you folks who love to complain about higher education can make this a lot easier. Just commit right now to NOT sending your kids to college. And tell them that. Go home right now and tell your kids that they are NOT going to college.

WHo is with me?


John Stossel Is Brilliant
He knows that a great way to appeal to rednecks is to make them feel better about their lack of education. If it's not in the Bible it's not worth knowing! Keep it up. This is making it easy to abondon conservatism.

Civic Education Lacking
Intercollegiate Studies Institute created a 30-question Civil Literacy Test and gave it to hundreds of college seniors across the country. I believe it was Harvard that got the highest scores: 67%! This is a D+ in any class in the nation. The nation's elite college and its grads can only muster a D+. The fun was comparing the salaries of the colleges/universities CEOs [read: Deans]. Cornell had the highest paid Deans of any college or university and Cornell ranked last in scoring on the ISI test!
Few students got over 90% on the test which covered US history, economics, and politics.
It's no wonder Obama is POTUS.

John #107
The question is not whether to send your child to college; it is what college will you send them to. After determining what college the child can get into, the next question is how to maximize the opportunities that college gives.

So I will vow with you not to send my child to Rivier College to study Human Development (whatever that is).

College Scam-Not Part 2
I spent seven years at a corporation. Entry-level accounting jobs were clerical in nature. You needed 15 years of service to advance to Accountant I with just a high school diploma and/or Associates Degree. With my Bachelor's, I was hired at Accountant I immediately and three years later made Accountant II. Because I was trained in GAAP and in computer systems, I was immediately in charge, just a year out of college, in writing monthly reports accumulating information from the accounting clerks, designing new software, and forecasting revenue flows. A Bachelor's Degree gave me this position.

Stossel also fails to assign any personal responsibility to the student and the poor choices they make. Most are not mentally prepared for more college and really should take time off between high school and college. I did. I spent three years in the Army. I found the college application madness as a high school senior and refused to partake in the competition. Plus, I wanted to go to Germany and wear the uniform anyway since I was 5.

Most drop out because they were pushed into college by their parents and high school guidance counselors with no idea what they really want to do. College for me was completely my own decision. Accounting was my choice, location was my choice, cost was my choice and I made them all. For me. Not for Mom and Dad. Not for my community. This was my education and I completed my Bachelor's in three years. And I was not a stellar high school student either. I was about a B- average. I hated science.




College Scam-Not Part 3
Kids need to make choices and they need to take the TIME and make those choices WISELY before they invest in an expensive proposition such as college. Choices made while a senior in high school are is not the best time to be picking your college. You are much more worried about prom, about the game, about girls, about friends and cars. You are not prepared to make a choice for higher education at 17-18. At that age, you defer the choices to your parents and to your teachers. You don't do any real thinking on your own. Natually young kids pick studies they have been hustled into by everybody but them. That is the real problem with college-is that kids do not necessarily make their own choices, but make choices that appeal to others. Away from peer pressure. They must go to college because they chose to go on their own dime. By the time I was ready to go, I actually had money too from the GI Bill and the Army College fund which covered the entire cost of tuition and books-$24K over three years.

College is no scam. It is that kids make bad choices. Like Rachele with the Human Development degree with no idea what kind of job that could lead to. That is primarily why dropout rates are so high. I was one of four accounting students that graduated from a class that numbered three years before at about 60. Kids have no idea what they want to do. At 18, you have almost no experience in the real world and do not really know what you want to do. Enrolling in college is a life choice and a mistake for many.

My college degree paved the way for me to become an investment adviser, an MBA and a CPA candidate. The sky is the limit. It is a mistake for Obama to push college on high school students and nearly guarantee graduation as a result of his policies. College is a personal choice and should remain so.

College is no scam.

Mike from VA

Mike you just touched on something. Many employers hire college grads in hopes that they get an employee who can actually read and write the english language. Not because of any advanced knowledge. Empolyers simply would like employees that can communicate.

The problem is many college grads think they are so much more knowledgeable than others who lack a degree.

Because of this, they are often close minded and not suitable for on the job training.

To qhoratius (formerly povidus)
Why send your kid to college at all? I was not sent to college. I went to college on my own. That is what made college work for me-because it was my money and I needed to take responsibility to see that I got the best return on my investment.

When you send your kid to college, they are there for YOU, not for them. Going there was not their choice. It was not their decision. College dropout rates are so high in this country and I believe that is because most of these kids enroll in a program that will please their parents but it is not at all what they ever wanted to do. So, they don't and drop out.

Goody for You Pusherman...
And yet, I spent 4 years in the Army, took a degree in a growth field (Corporate External Communications/Crisis Management) and can't get interviewed. Whether that's because I am over 30, Male, an Aspie, or because nobody wants to talk to a PR guy with a minor in Ethics I can't say... but regardless, the "wait a while" Bachelor's Degree did me no more good than the "right out of HS" programms discussed in the article.

I think that, after 9 years, countless Resume tweaks - professional or not - thousands of dollars in "networking" and other "professional" job hunt services I'd know what I'm talking about.

A Degree means squat if you aren't a happy-shiny-people person that can give some HR flunky a warm fuzzy.

I Repeat
Anecdotes are useless. Your personal stories. Anecdotes Stossel provides. Your cousin's failure the launch. All meaningless.

The braod data show that without a doubt people who have college degrees do better than people who don't. Period.

The issue isn't whether college is worth it, the issue is whether students can or will take advantage of the opportunity. I too recommend to many parents that their son or daughter take a gap year, or even two. The purpose is to give those students some reality orientation and increase the chances they will appreciate their educational opportunity.

In fact, if you have a reasonably bright underachiever, I say give him the money you would pay for tuition, get him a tciket to Europe and let him bum around thier for 6 months or a year. He'll be way better off.


It gets worse.
Not only do employers not value your education, even graduate degrees, that they pay uneducated employees just as much or more. One hired me just to help break a strike, I think. I felt bad about the guys outside the gate but was told not to because they made more than I did. It took half a day to break in on the job and did it five months with out dropping the load and we broke all the production records as usual. But that is not the worst part of education in America. The absolute worst part is that nobody values education. Do you know exactly how many educated scientists and engineers, we have in leadership positions making decisions in our Legislative, Executive and Judicial Branchs of government at any level?
Exactly none. No one thinks we need to ask an engineer or scientist about technical questions we face. It is getting so that more people do not even want to ask a medical doctor about their medical problems, clerks are making decisions illegally. We recruit foreign labor, not because we need to but because taxpayers subsidize their cost. How much is it worth to many if not most foreign nationals working in our country that they get to live here and will gain citizenship. That is our rather large contribution to their pay. So, they can accept less from the employer.

To Old Ironsights
See, I have no idea what your degree is and what it prepares you to do. My sister got her Bachelor's Degree in Communications after 5 years and worked as a stockbroker and as an accountant for her husband's telecom company. Nobody knows what a degree in communications is supposed to be and that may be part of your problem right there. On the other hand, everybody knows what an accountant is.

It sounds like you may not have picked a school with a good graduate placement program that would have pushed you to build a resume that is acceptable for them or prepared you properly for the interview process. My resume almost always gets a call back. I have looked at my friends' resume who have the same problems as you, but unlike me, they went to a big-name school that also provided no Career Development course and they have a bad resume and never knew it. I tweak their resumes for them and they usually get calls shortly after.

Graduate placement is important in picking a school and most have no idea how valuable a Career Development class is. Career Development class trains you to give that hiring manager or HR person that warm fuzzy. It trains you to interview excellently.

I would take that Bachelor's degree in communications back to school for an MBA. An MBA is a license to management if you play it right. In addition it gives you tools to run teams and special projects, pointers on accounting and budgeting, and many other things besides. Move up in life and take charge. Don't shift blame. Take some responsibility for yourself.

The central insight you must have
In my opinion, here is the central insight needed to understand Stossel's article: smart people have more of a chance for career success, and smart people tend to go to college. This is the main reason that income tends to correlate to educational attainment, not otherwise. Smart people might decide to start a business or to go to automotive repair school, and they become successful that way. That does not change the fact that they are successful mainly because they are smart. Educational attainment is a secondary factor.

The corollary? Stupid people should not go to college. If you are destined to flip burgers, college will not change that fact. Of course, there are a few people who will blossom in college and become successful, but these are generally few and far between. Far better for most of these students to go straight to their dishwashing apprenticeship, with the goal to work up to waiter (bartender is a bit of a stretch). In other words, Stossel nailed it.

BTW, I have a BA in Communication from a state university. I adored my "useless" education, and I would not trade it for anything. And really, the only thing I know how to do is talk to your customers and find what products they want and what they are willing to pay, or train your employees, or document your computer system. What *useless* skills.

To John @ 3:37
Exactly!!!

Except the part about sending my kid to Europe. My kid can do that exactly the same way as I did. He or she can volunteer exactly like the old man and go to Europe on his or her own dime! Makes it much more real for the kid.

To George
I don't think smarts necessarily has much to do with success in college as much as proper decision making and determination that you WILL master the classes and graduate from college.

I only took the SAT once-that was all my parents could afford-and I only scored 1000. I maintained a low B average in high school, and yet I still succeeded. Dummies like me can succeed when the choices they make are their own and they made good choices.

I will send my child to college
I will send my kid to college, no choice. My dad took the same approach with me and it worked out. I knew from the time I could walk that I had to go to college. Grades (with athletics) in childhood education were an imperative: I was punished when I earned a B in a class. I'm happy my parents took this approach with me. So I have taken this approach with my offspring.

But the ultimate point is that education is not for everyone: nature and nurture determines this. It was important to my parents, it was the way I was raised, so education was important to me. It is not the same for everyone.

George #117
Well put posting.

stossel nailed nothing
gee i can't imagine why anyone who is "stupid" would want to go to college and try and better themselves.i would think they would be breaking down the doors to get at that dishwasher appenticeship so they can live below the poverty line the rest of their lives.this article and most of the posters are just plain silly.

Right... I forgot. I'm a slacker.
I must have no ambition. No way did I research schools before I chose one. Not a chance of talking extensively with Career Centers and admissions counselors about the best education program for both my talents and the corporate job outlook. It's unthinkable that I could have paid hundreds upon hundresd of dollars to get my resume tweaked (mostly to cover what HR departments consider 4 years of Unemployment while I was going to school).

Naah. You're right. I'm a hopeless loser waiting for a handout, not a guy who went to school to try to make enough money to get his wife off of SSD.

Unfortunately, unlike your sister I didn't have Hubby to go work for and a family to feed and medical bills to pay - so going to Grad School was right out. But thanks for assuming.


Finally, some real conservatism
I want to congratulate Stossel for having written an article that is a product of real conservatism. Conservatives were never really big fans of most people getting an education anyway. Liberals like Thomas Jefferson thought education was a great idea, but on the Right they've always known that college education was really for the favored few, especiallyt those whose parents could afford it. I'm pleased to see conservatives getting back in touch with their principles.

Now, I want to know exactly which trade school did Stossel attend? I'll bet he's got one of those unnecessary college educations, you know, the kind he doesn't want a lot of Americans to get. Yep, he's a conservative all right.

To Old Ironsights
Just remember, you said it, not me.

A poster further down said he uses his communications degree for customer service. That is one area I can think of. But my ex worked customer service and what I know of the job. . . it is grueling and not well paid and the boss pushes you on statistics. I have never known anybody who likes spending an entire day on phones.

Go for the MBA, dude. Your life, your career is whatever you want to make of it. Stossel, a libertarian, should agree and it is a mystery to me why he wrote this article blaming the college system for personal failures. His first sentence alone is completely wrong. A college degree was never supposed to be a ticket to a good life. A college degree is a tool you can use in an arsenal of life skills you acquire to build a better life. The premise of the entire article is completely false.

When did Stossel become a liberal?

Parents borrow the most
The untold story here is that students are only allowed to borrow a small amount of the yearly costs. Parents are on the hook to borrow the rest. I have so many parent loans that my children and I have to repay that I needed to buy term life insurance for each of them just in case. I place the biggest blame on the high schools that give students the impression that only a 4 year college will do and only a loser or dummy would go to a community college or trade school. I have 1 son who was in the bottom 40%, the college let him in on probation and $16K and a failed freshman year later he is in limbo.

To squtech
As an undergrad, I borrowed almost all my tuition. I started to pay with the proceeds of my GI bill, but decided to pocket that. There were no laws saying how much I was allowed to borrow that I know of. My parents put nothing away for me and were never on the hook to borrow for me. I was 22 when I started college.

I don't think I will pay for my kids' college educations either. Grampa paid for Mom and she dropped out after a year. She finally got her associates degree in general studies about 35 years later. I think it is wiser to have my kids pay for their own education. If it is on their dollar, they are much more determined to make it work since it is their money and their risk.

John Stossel on the right track
Yes, the college education is very overrated, but the real problem lies in the lack of learning in grades K-12.

gestell
i couldn't have put it better myself lol.

Aparantly accountants don't get sarcasam
Stossel isn't a Liberal, he's pointing out a Bait & Switch advertising scam.

People are being Told/Sold a bill of goods.

If you don't know someone, if you don't have the time $$ to do freebie internships or , if you don't have other assets, a degree has very little value in the job market.

Employers - at least in "my" industry - don't want degrees, they want "industry experience" - usually 1-3 years. Without that, or a personal relationship with someone in the company, the degree won't even get your resume read.

Like I said, I've been following "expert" advice for 9 years and I've had precicely ONE interview. With a resume of nothing but temp & clerical work, going into MORE debt to get an MBA that won't guarantee me anything but debt isn't going to help.

It's the curriculum, stupid!
Some people have the belief that if it's not taught in college, it's of no value.  (You might ask Bill Gates about that, by-the-way.)  The blind belief that a college degree - any college degree - is valuable is unfortunate.  It's the curriculum, stupid! Pioneers and entrepreneurs benefit from seeing and learning where others have been - you can get that kind of thing in college - but what they offer us is found in their own inspired ideas, not just a regurgitation of a professor's notions.  Getting a degree in Social Work, for example, is evidence of either extreme gullibility or a Borderline Personality Disorder.  Same with a number of other degrees in the soft sciences, as students engaged in those pursuits would be better off with a general degree of some sort.A good example of where even so-called rigorous scientific academia is the the follow-the-leader attitude of people in the biological and exercise sciences, who have - (until recently) - bought into the myth of "lactic acid," which is a 100 year old stupidity that was almost enough to bring down those who were perceptive and strong enough to question it's validity. On the other hand, even as much as strong belief in the myth was limiting to our understanding, it took educated people who were willing to stand up against the orthodoxy to successfully refute it.  Unfortunately, it took people with credentials to dismember the false notion, and a lone genius could not have prevailed.Perhaps the worst words in science and education at large are these:"Everyone knows...!"And "everyone knows" you need a college degree.  Except when you don't.  Or when you need more.  Like personal courage, intuition, energy, integrity and insight.  

old
isn't this just the colleges practicing laissez faire capitalism using creative statistics?i mean the bush administration did this for years when they claimed that average family income went up during his term.thats not the numbers you use when you want to see how the country is doing as a whole.bill gates,me and the bum down the street had a 500 million average income last year.the figure we are looking for however is median family income.and in that statistic the bush administration failed miserably.median family income went down during his term.

Missing the point.
It seems that Stossel and many of the folks here are not seeing the true problem. It's not only that college is over-rated, which is obvious.

The fact of the matter is that our nation has made a conscious effort to value, in way too many cases, the wrong jobs. We all told our kids the same thing: Go to college and get a good white collar job and avoid the trades, factory floor, and real work. Nothing wrong with back during the time when we actually had a strong manufacturing base.

But then it got refined by the clever white shirts. Now we have paper pushers and bean counters and the Wall Street white shorts who produce nothing and often do not even provide a service...and yet they were/are admired and lionized because they are the "elite" of our society.

But, as we have recently found out, they are often the scum of the earth and the root of much of our problems.

As long as we have the huge disparity in the over compensation of the often worthless white shirts as compared to the folks who actually have skills and make thing happen...we will have millions of "educated idiots" coming out of college and expecting to join in at the trough even when they are devoid of the knowledge, ability, or experience that they should have.

To Old Ironsights
When did accountants ever get sarcasm?

I didn't do a freebie internship during college. I worked part time as a telemarketer and as a work-study at the VAMC. Most jobs in "my" field require a Bachelor's degree and 1-3 years of experience. How did I get in as an Accountant I for a health insurer? I stressed software experience and emphasized things I did in class projects such as Senior Project on my resume. I also learned to interview well, dress sharply, tell the interviewer, "I want this job" at the end of the interview, write a good cover letter and thank you letter and so forth. Career Development 405 taught me that.

My time at the health insurer, a Bachelors replaced 15 years experience with the company to make Accountant I. At 25, my first Accounting job, I was immediately over Accounting clerks old enough to be my mom and I even got more than they did. I had no personal relationship with anybody in the company but I did knock the ball out of the park with my interview and good looking resume. One of my interview questions was even, "So. . . What did you do in the Army? Oh my God! Look at his eyes light right up!"

I have been in the industry 14 years now and work in public accounting doing financial statement compilations, taxes, divorce consulting, and investment advisory.

Stossel is a liberal for this article because he does not point out Rachele's irresponsiblity in some of the choices she made. Of course college is a bill of goods, but that doesn't mean you have to buy it. If Stossel was libertarian, he would have acknowledged Rachele has a lot of personal responsibility in this story for her choices and not made her out to be a victim of George Bush and the evil college system.

Get that MBA. While in school, you get the proceeds of those student loans to live on while adding more skills to your repertoire. One interview in 9 years-you are not getting expert advice and you should know better, sir.

tom
nice analysis tom-you just blew stossel right out of the water.

Col. and Ratas
RE: roy
Location: IL
Reply # 81
Date: Jan 28, 2009 - 11:51 AM EST
col.
you won the prize for the most ridiculous comment of the day.considering this comes after a stossel column is quite a feat.congrats.
----------------------------------------------

roy, Every time you post your run on drivel with the pro-union, rush and joe the plumber were on welfare crap, it beats the most riduculous post that I have seen on the thread so far.

Here, you calling out the Col. is as funny as the Rat using you as a ball of yarn on the Adams thread today.It is almost hard to believe you would would have such admiration for a fellow troll turd as Gestell.

tom
"We all told our kids the same thing: Go to college and get a good white collar job and avoid the trades, factory floor, and real work."

Once upon a time college was a place to get an
education in the liberal arts sense. You
learned how to think. You added to your base
of knowledge. Now it has pretty much become
of vocational training institute. There is more in depth study to be sure than that in
institutes that teach you how to cut hair, but
if you are going for the big bucks then that is what you must put up with.

And if you want to learn that public education
is a waste of time and money, that a liberal
art dept. in college is where fanatics,
atheists & other dangerous types hide out,
that being top-of-the-heap hicks in the Western World is a good thing, then visit
Town Hall on a regular basis.

in this day and age
More colleges, especially state colleges, should allow people to receive credits via competency testing. In high school, some people received credit for AP test passage. Now that we have so much information (lectures, research papers, historical events, science formulae) free on the internet -- people should receive credit for learning. Also, there is no reason that medical school should require an undergraduate degree -- assuming you have the math/science background -- you should be able to study for your MD directly from high school. Technology has made knowledge very inexpensive (no library 20 years ago had what a high speed connection has today) and very quick to find (and accurate). Why have college costs increased at rates of 10% per year? The costs, like the costs of TVs, DVD players and computers, should have gone down (WAY down).

Some degrees are worthless
Some are not. The PC moonbats that crunch out summa Koom laude degrees in black history, female studies, tv production, journalism, marine biology, psychology, sociology, massage therapy, archeology and on and on are participating in irrelevance. The economy already has many more of these people than it needs, so a degree means next to nothing. Those that get degrees in engineering, mathematics, physics, chemistry have little trouble getting their money's worth out of the degree. But they learned something that is hard to learn on one's own, and demonstrated a level of intelligence and diligence one doesn't need to get all A's in Feminine History.

Great article
Thank you for the great article, John. I am one of those who chose not to go to college. I have been working for almost 40 years, I have a small business and am also an Assistant Director with a company that advocates for the aging. I make more money than many of my friends that do have a college education, and I love both of my jobs. I believe it depends on each person and the choices they make. I read an article a few years ago about two CEO's that would go to places like StarBucks and watch how the employees treated their customers. They would then hire the ones that had the best customer service skills. They said they could teach anyone almost anything, except for that one skill.

hey keep
i thoroughly destroyed that rat character.just because his only comebacks are about turds and excrement that you think are clever doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.and neither do you son.sorry-i calls em like i sees them skippy lol.

Tammy
You sound exactly like an honors graduate in black studies from a liberal arts university. How is the new economy treating you? Do you think you will ever recover the cost of your college attendance as compared to if you invested it wisely? Or since i'm just p[laying around and guessing, perhaps you can steer me straight.

Tammy
Yoiu seemed to miss the point of my 6:11 pm post.

The problem is not anything about a college education...good or otherwise...it's the fact that our society has allowed the comparative value of jobs become bastardized to the point where the least productive are often among the very highest paid.

We have allowed the scummy white shirts to overthrow our nation and they didn't even have to fire a shot!

The Day Has Arrived
We have almost reached a point in our decline where trades positions are the jobs that Americans won't do and the highly technical fields are the jobs that Americans can't do.

I've been a scientist for over twenty-five years. I have seen the technical fields transition from being the province of native born Americans to being primarily the work of foreign born professionals, educated in our country's graduate schools.

There is an education scam, but it starts way before college. The scam is that American children are not effectively prepared for the working world after twelve years of school. My wife was raised in the USSR and became an RN by age eighteen. She was able to easily pass American nursing exams after just a few courses.

roy the "destroyer"
roy, You are a regular legend in your own mind.

Because you believe you have, of course you have "destroyed" all of us that you call einstein and aristotle.

I find most of your arguments, and many, many of the regular trolls here fairly weak usually. Sometimes you make a decent point, but it is rare and when you preface them with insults, you do yourself no favors.

For instance, the constant references to Rush and Joe TP are insipid and played out. They are also irrelevant. But you continue to go to that well continually in order to "destroy" our arguments as if you have really made a point.
What is the point?

You need new material. I think Rat was using topic specific/user appropriate spoofs in that case. But if you believe that you destroyed him, I encourage you to continue to yank his chain.

keep
i'm very polite on here.i don't insult anyone except for the occasional einstein unless they say something out of line like your buddy.the aristotle thing was because the dudes name was aristotle.now how you can equate my good natured kidding with some of the vile things that come out of rats mouth is beyond me.i mean that dude has no arguments.by his 2nd post he has already been reduced to fart jokes and scat. i suppose i used to think that was funny in the second grade.i suggest you do an intervention and get him some help.

alopekos teumesios, you are correct.
I worked in manufacturing for 40 years with a company that is the world leader in their field (glass containers) and I saw firsthand how our education process went downhill.

After retiring I did consulting jobs at many of our plants around the world and the speed at which they caught up with us was literally amazing.

But still, I would place much of the over-all blame more on the imbalance of compensation than on the education system in our nation.

keep
i go to the rush and jtp well because it never runs dry lol.see i've never got an answer.so i'll ask once again.why is it that when poor people collect welfare they are shiftless and lazy but when jtp or rush or farmers or corporations do its swell?its a fair question isn't it?

Reply to Gestell
There you go again.

You modern liberals try to lay claim to Thomas Jefferson only when it suits some narrow point that you hope to make. John Stossel is not a conservative or a liberal.

Given the opportunity (which you now have with President Obama), you and your "liberal" collectivist pals would stomp out individual liberty in the interest of the state.

You have no connection to Locke, Jefferson or anyone who champions the cause of individual liberty over the power of the state.

Reply to roy
It is always wrong to use the power of the state to force an individual to give up the fruit of his labor to enrich another segment of society. Is that a clear enough answer?

Charity is a noble and desirable activity that serves to enrich and bind a society together. People who are uncharitable should be shunned and despised, but they should not be coerced into surrendering their property to politicians.

Reply to Tom
I agree that there is a compensation disparity that does not relect supply and demand in many fields.

This occurs primarily because the "clever white shirts" are able to enlist the assistance of corrupt politicians in both parties to bias the market forces.

wealth tax
Some countries (notably Germany) have a "wealth tax" on the net worth of an individual. For example, something like a 4% tax on all net worth over $1,000,000. The government could earn a whole lot taxing college/university endowments at a wealth tax rate of even 1%. Aside from sciences, other studies are so controlled by leftist radicals (not liberals or democrats, radicals) who do not believe in freedom of speech and like to push their radical ideology (unsupported by history). It is exactly why today so many people will claim things like all whites are guilty of "oppression" and Hispanics have suffered great discrimination. No facts back up either point, yet no professor would dare to challenge these beliefs. Even at "rich white" schools like Duke University, the faculty and administration is filled with dangerous bigots. Obama will be appointing many of these people to mid-level bureaucratic positions -- so get ready to have more "diversity" education.

Straight from Stossel's TH bio
"He is a graduate of Princeton University, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology."

Yes, Princeton is part of the Ivy League, and yes, psych is one of the social sciences.

Make of that what you will.

Don't Hold Your Breath, FeargalX
The limousine liberals would never sit still for a wealth tax being enacted in America. The day that they see it coming is the day that their wealth is moved offshore. The tax code is devised to prevent the nouveau riche from joining the club.

roy
Swell? According to whom? It is obvious that those 2 guys are doing quite well and if they needed a hand up in hard times, no big deal. The taxes they pay now will far exceed any temporary drain they may have been at one time.

If welfare is not a way of life, like it is in most big cities courtesy of men and women that vote like Mr Obummer, then no big deal. But perpetuating that lifestyle as a means of buying votes is an American tradgedy that has been endemic for decades. We are all remiss if we don't speak against it.

Subsidies are flat out wrong. I am not aware that the vote buyers in your party have ever taken a stand against them and Sam Donaldson has been getting tens of thousands of dollars in subsidies every year as a hypocritical liberal. Any conservative that has ever voted for them is a RINO and is abusing the constitutional oath that he/she took. Not that 98% of the 635 members give a flying !@#$ about the constitution.

Maybe you can answer me a few questions?

Was it was OK to use govt. resources to investigate JTP?

Would either of these guys even be known to ANYBODY in the world if the PRAVDA media were an objective entity? I say that if they were doing the job that they are being paid to do- one that they enjoy constitutional protection doing- both of these guys might STILL be on welfare.

Does it creep you out even a little bit that your boy's first executive job after being a professor and a lawyer-with no records, transcripts or accomplishments is THIS job?

It is like letting a pilot fly his first mission around the world in a hurricane with 500 passengers. The Pravda press just cheers and tells us why we should hate Rush.

And you seem to be fool enough to believe them. Meanwhile, Rush will continue to make mega millions without a college education just for finding a need and filling it. All because they are cheerleading, lazy liberals. What a country we used to live in.

An insiders view ....
I have 4 college degrees. I worked at 2 major state universities for 20 years in jobs that gave me access to & use of insider University data. Mr. Stossel, you got most of it right!

Remember the Marine's theme - Give me a few good men. Well, there are few good people in universities! I define bad people as people who are trying to get more & more money, students, buildings, and more & more: i.e., empire & ego builders. And these are predominate in universities.

I was quickly put in my place when I challenge - argued against - growth in certain existing & new areas of the university! I wasn't a team player when I said the state does not need, nor can the state's taxpayers afford to increase students in these areas; it will create too many graduates and cost bunches of taxpayers' money!

IMHO we have too many colleges with too many students & too many colleges that will figure out any way to get as many warm body on campus as possible t odemonstrate they need more, more, more! They could care less about most students.

Ask today's HS grads how they're doing
Alas, such criticisms never explore how well the college graduate would be doing if she hadn't gotten a college degree. Do a little research: Ask her high school classmates who didn't go to college how they're doing. It's not what she feels she could have done without a degree -- it's what job she'd be able to get.

A college degree isn't a guarantee: It's just a ticket for a chance to compete.

Of course, colleges and universities must be held somewhat accountable for the knowledge & skills, attitudes & behaviors, motivation & behavior of their graduates. But the contract must be made between the institution and its students -- and those students must bear some share of the responsibility.

Don't Care About College
I own a software company and have 30 employees. Other than learning about someone's college background because the subject may come up in casual conversation, I don't know -- and don't care -- who has a college education and who doesn't.

I just care about performance.

isn't college about more than a job
for me it was.

I feel sad for these kids who are hung up on
their career. NEWSFLASH: We are in a recession.

Give it a couple years.

Hopefully you are a more well rounded, better
read, more self assured person. If the emphasis
is only on work your education was truly wasted
even if you have a great job, imho.

Universities just want your aid money
Really, all this is about is Universities trying to get Govt money through a money laundering scheme known as student loan grants. They recruit as many people as possible to go for atleast two years and hand over the Aid Money. When my wife and I went to college the first thing they asked on our first day is "Do you know where and how to apply for student aid?

college scam
College has become a bit more expensive comapred to wages. The job market since 2000 has not been very good. Just applying for a job may seem easy with the internet, but is actually harder. Knowing what I know now, I would not have gone to the same school, but I also would chosen a different major: History over Theater. College degrees are NOT over-rated, but the Hi school students have been properly prepared for college.
Tech schools have been disappearing which channels non academics into a world they don't want to be. Not everyone can be a college student, but then not everyone can run their own business and be a plumber, either.

Six figure cabinet installer.
From 2003 to 2007 I made any where from $103,000.00 to $124,000.00 a year installing cabinets. I actually made a little more on top of that working under the table. It was all piece work on new homes. So when the market fell apart I started up my own little business. That started out okay but it was really a bad time to start a business. I just couldn't think of a better way to keep my life style. I got some great ideas and lots of contacts for business. I'm just going to chill in a hourly job and save up money. When the market comes back I'll be all over it. I haven't made less then $40,000.00 sense I was 18. I'm 31 now and I'm looking at maybe $30,000.00 for 2009.

Did I mention I dropped out of high school in 10th grade. I was also drugged out and homeless at 17. One day I slit my wrist. It was a poor attempt. I decided to fight harder and not give up. And to always move forward. When I dropped out I was getting a 3.4 grade average and I got a 137 on my last IQ test.

I think being bold and aggressive is the best success. I've known at least a dozen people become millionaires in construction. And most did it by selling a product that was garbage. We call it "making it fly". They sell something for 4x what it's worth and then tell the customer it's high end. How ever mostly the good guys survive the down market. And the honest people get loyal customers. To bad the contractors I was working under are hurting worse then I am.

College Not For Everybody -- But --
-- it IS for some.

Stossel quotes Nemko that "You could take the pool of college-bound students and lock them in a closet for four years -- and they're going to earn more money,"

That may be true -- but those kids will make more money going to college than being locked in a closet.

I Think the problem is we've been pushing an "egalitarian" society for some time, based on some pseudo-Marxist concept that "Everybody Is The Same In Every Possible Respect," and so therefore, everybody should go to college. Well, sorry, no, not everybody is the same. Not everybody has the same drive, the same intelligence, the same persistence.

Some people belong in college, and they *will* do better in life for it. Others, well, they *don't* belong in college, and they *won't* do better in life for it.

Student loans...
...do very little more than goad college administrators into raising tuition, since there's more money to be had.

Another Useless article by Stossel
Catchy title, useless article.

Buying anything can be a scam or lack value.

It comes down to individual responsibility. It's called America. We make our own choices in life and aspire- succeeding and failing on the way, but it's each individual's choice.

Providing one anecdote of someone who 'bought' a degree and made nothing of themselves proves nothing.
If you are investing the time, work and money in college and got nothing out of it - shame on you - not "the system."
A USEFUL article would have been HOW TO make sure you get value out of college - not to trash all learning.
Yes, college isn't for everyone - But do you want the government to tell you what to do with your life - protect you from ambition and higher learning?
To those who think higher ed is useless - wake up. The factory jobs are gone.
If you don't have anymore skills or knowledge than a Chinese farmer, don't expect to make more than one.
Obama's vision is to have the most skilled and educated workforce in the world. If we fail, so will our children's standard of living.

Stosell hits again
thanks Stossel only problem is 5 years to late.... D'oh!

So totally true!
Twenty years later, and I still haven't made more than $25K with my BA in English. I tell my children all the time: don't go into debt to go to college. It's just as respectable to become a plumber, a soldier, or a carpenter, and a lot more lucrative in many cases.

Frankly, I think federal and state college aid should be contingent on student performance and the expected return on the degree, using statistical data. It might seem unfair to students, but it would prevent them from taking on crippling debt.
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