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Wednesday, January 07, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Madoff Is a Piker
by John Stossel
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Bernard Madoff, who stands accused of bilking sophisticated investors out of $50 billion, is reported to have told two of his executives that his business was "a giant Ponzi scheme."

Perpetrators of Ponzi schemes lead clients to believe their money is invested and that their profits are the fruits of the money manager's savvy. But in fact, the "profits" are merely revenue provided by the next group of dupes. Eventually, when no more new dupes can be found, the scheme crashes.

Political leaders say Madoff's alleged crimes show what's wrong with the country. President-elect Obama said the "massive fraud that was made possible in part because the regulators who were assigned to oversee Wall Street dropped the ball." Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid added, "[R]egulators have been asleep at the wheel."

Politicians go on and on about Wall Street "greed" and "irresponsibility."

But Madoff's scam was small compared to Ponzi schemes the government itself runs: Social Security and Medicare.

By now we all know the government does not invest our payroll taxes and pay our benefits with the profits our money earns. In the beginning, writes economic historian Charlotte Twight in "Dependent on D.C.", Americans were told Social Security was an insurance program. But the government was unable to sustain that bald lie.

In reality, our money, rather than being invested and kept in an actual "trust fund," is immediately given to current retirees in Social Security benefits or to their healthcare providers in Medicare benefits. The government's promise to pay for your retirement pension and medical care is just a promise. And a lie.

In theory, the promise could be kept by raising taxes on future workers, but there won't be enough of them. Changing demographics are destroying the programs. A large working class can support a relatively small retired class, especially when life expectancy is 61 years and benefits don't begin until 65. That's how things were in the early years of Social Security. But when life expectancy grows to 80 and a large generational group -- the baby boomers -- retires expecting to be supported by a far smaller working class, that's trouble.

Ten years after Social Security passed in 1935, there were almost 42 workers for each retiree. Five years later, the ratio slipped to about 17 to 1. Now it's about 3.4 to 1. Thirty years from now, the ratio is projected to be 2 to 1.

Think of the burden on those two to three workers who'll have to support one retiree for 15 to 20 years.

The money just won't be there. In the next 75 years Social Security and Medicare have a combined unfunded liability of $40.3 trillion. Social Security's problems get most of the attention, but Medicare will be the killer. At present it accounts for all but $4.3 trillion of the unfunded liability, and as we aging boomers keep demanding new, improved and more expensive medical care, the deficit will only get worse

Soon government will have to say what Madoff said: Sorry! The money's gone.

The government has no legal obligation to make good on its promises. Twice the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Americans have no contractual rights regarding Social Security benefits. In 1960 (Flemming v. Nestor), the court said, "To engraft upon the Social Security system a concept of accrued property rights would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustment to ever changing conditions which it demands."

Get that? You have no "accrued property rights" under Social Security. It's a welfare program that exists at the politicians' pleasure.

The government will either stiff us outright or, more likely, cowardly politicians will pretend to honor their promises by printing so much extra money to write the checks that the dollar will be worth pennies.

If Bernie Madoff tried to foist Social Security and Medicare on us, he'd be arrested, prosecuted and thrown in the hoosegow.

There's one thing I can say on behalf of Madoff: He never forced anyone to participate in his scheme. That's more than I can say for the government. Through taxation and inflation, it forces us to pay for all its schemes.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Melvin - NY
That's the same concept as those who bought homes they couldn't afford. How come the dems aren't up in arms to bail out Madoff's clients?

Let Him Go
The 18 percent interest offered by the Madoff investment fund was astonishing when others funds were earning only 6 or 7 percent. It was well known that the investment fund was as risky as a bet on a long shot at the horse race track. But investors took the chance and they were winners. But due to a collapsing stock market and cash withdrawals the fund went broke and investors lost an estimated 50 billion dollars. There is a saying that if you play with fire you get burned. Should we feel sorry for those that bet on a long shot and lost?

Stossel:
Aren't you the guy who told us, as if we should
go and do likely, to bargain with the powers to
be about the cost of a medical procedure, sort
of like in Indian bazaar?

Do not start out with the premise that Social
Security is a bad idea. It is not. That it needs to be revised and reworked is a must, but to leave Social Security in the hands of the general public means we would have no financial security. It was never meant to
present us with anything other than the basics. People are completely free to save on
top of social security contributions for their
retirement.








THE REAL JOHN STOSSEL
Is this the same Stossel that said ...." don't worry. Charlie Gibbons will have a very good interview with Sara Palin " ?
sincerely,
5th rail

THE REAL JOHN STOSSEL
Is this the same Stossel that said ...." don't worry. Charlie Gibbons will have a very good interview with Sara Palin " ?
sincerely,
5th rail

DDL need not worry...
DDL worries that conservatives want to eliminate his Social Security check and throw him out onto the street. Most conservatives realize the program, bad as it is, cannot be ended that way. We cannot "stiff" people just because they were stupid enough to trust the politicians - although it is tempting, because they should have known better.

A reasonable reform would be to do this:

1. Allow all prople currently receiving Social Security benefits to continue to collect them until they die.

2. Allow people currently in the work force to decide whether they want to remain in the Social Security system or exit permanently. If you opt out, you will stop paying Social Security taxes, but you will never receive any Social Secuirity benefits.

3. Social Security taxes and benefits would never apply to young people who have not yet entered the work force.

This plan would eventually eliminate Social Security, once all the parasites die off. In the short run, the government would have to cut other federal programs to the bone to fund the benefits as a welfare prgram (which is what it is anyway), but there's enough waste in government to cover the cash needed (if legislators ever get serious about cutting spending).

Everyone opting out of Social Security could invest in private retirement accounts as they see fit. Just don't beg for benefits in the future if you make foolish investment decisions (like Bernard Madoff schemes).

In other words, let's establish a system of individual liberty, rather than socialism!

http://www.colony14.net

Awesome DDL
your entitilement attitude will make sure we can never fix this problem. Shame on you for you arrogant selfishness. I can only hope that you and your wife will die soon so MY children aren't stuck supporting you. You suck!

My Wife and I
Are boomers that have had SS deducted from our paychecks during our entire working lives, with the exception of the first half of mine, while working for a railroad and paying into railroad retirement instead. I have also worked for the federal government during the latter half of my working life, and will soon be receiving a full pension from the government, and continued medical coverage as well.

We will be set when we retire, but it appears that there are conservatives who are in favor of eliminating SS, Medicaid and Medicare NOW, and damn the consequences to those who are or would eventually be receiving them.

There is no way that these millions of socially dependent people will be allowed to suffer, become homeless, and/or starve. No company wants to employ workers that can no longer perform their job productively due to age and/or infirmity, so you conservatives can kiss off the idea of upping the SS minimum retirement age 10 years or more.

I wish conservatives good luck trying to convince your elected leaders to alienate their huge and aging constituency by drafting bill(s) cutting off or drastically reducing those so-called "entitlements". That is like asking them to commit political suicide...LOL!!

BananaGrabber and Dan
Dan, aside from your prognosis, this is the other reason that we are talking about this crap (in case you missed it):

MrBannanaGrabber
Location: GA
Reply # 48
Date: Jan 7, 2009 - 1:27 PM EST You do realize why this happens, right?
There used to be a time when leaders like we've had would be yanked out of bed, tarred, feathered, and rode out of town on a rail. Today we're too polite. Instead we make them wealthy as they give speeches for thousands of dollars a pop, no matter how shameful their actions while in office. Republicans, Democrats, it doesn't matter.
These people get caught doing things or mess things up so badly that in the past they'd do themselves in, or certainly become recluses for life. Today they stand and wave with grins on their faces in front of ignorant crowds of adoring fans.
------------------------------------------------

Liberals throw boatloads of cash at these rogues to come "speak" at "institutes of HIGHER learning"

JIM
jim
Location: CA
Reply # 53
Date: Jan 7, 2009 - 2:01 PM EST Subject: Get off this nonsense that Soc Sec
is a Ponzi scheme.

-----------------------------------------------

You must be so excited about the installment of the dicta.....err... Hopey McChange....err Barack HuSanta Obama. He will fix everything. Especially out in LA LA land!

Right on Stossel!
But my question is: Why won't officials running for election say these things?

Answer: The public doesn't want to hear it. Everyone just seems to want to think that we can go on and on and on with no consequences.

yeah right.

DanS
DanS
Location: CO
Reply # 56
Date: Jan 7, 2009 - 3:37 PM EST No one sees the root of the problem...
The greatest fraud is public education and is at the root of all other frauds. The Nation is becoming more illiterate day-by-day. PULL THE PLUG!
-----------------------------------------------

100% RIGHT! THE GOP can't figure it out, though. IMHO, it is something having to do with a stupid party vs. the evil party and the merger of the 2 "parties" over the past 8 years. Yep, it's a party. We all get the bill and libs claim no responsibility for their role in it.

Money is already worthless
It now cost $429.14 to buy the same thing that $20.00 would in 1913. Our dollar is already worth pennys. By the time that our bail outs are complete, I expect a loaf of bread to cost $100.00. There is one and only one cause of inflation. That is an increase in the money supply. The only way to stop inflation is repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and stop printing up fait money.

Change the System to Reflect Reality
Actually, the system needs to be changed to reflect reality. If people don't want to produce offspring, or the "little engines that can", fine. But to the extent you have not gifted the world with the number of people necessary to pay your benefits, they get cut proportionately. That's fair. I have four kids and they are expensive to raise. Consequently, I can't save nearly as much as my childless counterparts. I see no reason why my childrens' future incomes and ability to provide for themselves should be compromised by my self-serving generation. Or just means test the thing. Believe me, those of us with children will qualify for more because we aren't going to have nearly enough. Don't tell me it was my choice to have them either. It was their choice not to have them or adopt. They should be glad that I did. Otherwise, they wouldn't be getting a damned thing, which may be the case anyway.

THEFT
During Dubya's term enough FICA was stolen to fnance Iraq, Afganistan and lots of pork. The pay per word media, including Stossel, don't
have the cajones to expose this bipartisan collusion. It started in 1937 with Helvering vs Davis when the Supremes told everyone that
FICA was not "earmarked" for any specific purpose. LBJs "Unified Budget", Phony IOUs called " Special Issue United States Treasury Securities" have, to date, help steal over $2.3 trillion from workers. do you see now why Bush
didn't fix Social Security?? Unfunded liabilities aside can't we stop stealing FICA??

Medicare
As one who benefits from the medicare program, I should not comment negatively. But I pay a monthly premium for Medicare.
However, Medicare should be separate from Social Security. Combining them was a great [LBJ?] mistake.

Theft
When the subject of Bernard Madoff came up in a conversation yesterday, my reaction was "Is it not amazing that someone can steal fifty billion dollars without even being in Congress". Everyone got the point, as all shared my disgust with the self-proclaimed "world's greatest deliberative body", who daily make Madoff look like a piker.

No one sees the root of the problem...
The greatest fraud is public education and is at the root of all other frauds. The Nation is becoming more illiterate day-by-day. PULL THE PLUG!

Social Security Pyramid Scheme

F.D.R. got the votes. He got the popularity. He got all the credit. We got the debt.

The world according to Liberals.

Jim
Nobody (that I know of) resents what you get from SS. You were forced to pay into it and you deserve to get what you can out of it.

Your argument that it saves old people from living and dying in the streets is not persuasive.

If we had been allowed to save and invest the money ourselves, we would ALL be better off. We'd be able to support ourselves without any theft from the young and all that money would have gone into the economy to rise the tide for everyone instead of down the rat hole of government.

The care of citizens is the responsibility of the citizens themselves.

Get off this nonsense that Soc Sec
is a Ponzi scheme. the only way a Ponzi works, is because the investors are not told what is going to happen with their money. You have been told exactly what will happen to the Soc Sec money.

The start of an IRA, and the 401K stuff, made Soc Sec extension a private investment. So run with it.

The excess collections each years were used to buy US Bonds, and are waiting to be cashed when needed. Of course more taxes from workers will be needed, but while I paid the Maximum of $35 a year when I started paying, the payment has increased over the years, as did incomes.

I do not find it fair that Bill Gates only pays Soc Sec payments from 12:01 AM on Jan.1, to 12:02 AM on Jan 1. I think the care of citizens includes not only protection by use of the military, it includes keeping elderly citizens from sleeping on the street.

I remember when I visited Calcutta (on a troop ship) 65 years ago, each morning they came along the street with a big cart. When they came to a body, they kicked it, if it moved it was sent on his way, if it didn’t more, they threw the body into the card, then off to the Hoogley river.

Remember the Townsend Plan promoted in the late ‘30? The idea was to send each elderly person $200 a month, with proviso that each penny be spent by the next month. That was to keep the economy moving.

Well think a little, what is the impact each month by Soc Sec precipitants spending all those billions of dollars for food, clothes, and shelter?

And on and on.

So stupid it stinks up the Internet

Stephen Dorn
Shenyang, China
Formerly from Missouri

P.S. Whoa, boy! Oakley from CO hit the nail on the head. Abortion kills the geese that could have laid the golden eggs to keep Social Security solvent.
=======

Why not say that since a woman can have a child every couple of years, every one who did not have a dozen, was not doing her part to solve Soc Sec.

And of course we must remember that those trillions of unwanted babies will them selves want to collect Soc Sec some day, and there won't be any empty womb they can steal from.

To use abortion in an argument like this is slimy stupidity at it's worse. I never thought the torturers who like to see a mother and new-born suffer, suffer, suffer, would ever sink this low.

Have you ever noticed that your brain has been aborted.

Regulators Couldn't Have Prevented This
SEC Regulators regulate, well Wall ST. Madoff invested very little of the lute he collected. Most of it was spread in accounts all over the world. As a matter of fact, Madoff used the initial "investments" from his "marks" to purchase memberships into exclusive clubs in NY, FL, and Cali. He also purchased yachts, mansions in NY, FL, and California. This gave him credability with the kind of people he needed to meet. Almost all of the people he bilked were from the Jetset and super wealthy crowd. Madoff painted a narrative of himself using other people's money. Over the years, he kept the circle of "investors" small (when compared to a normal mutual or hedge fund), but the investors gave him huge sums.

He was able to keep his Ponzi scheme going because the US had 25 years of historical growth -especially in the stock markets. People did not ask to redeem thier phoney stocks en masse until late last year. Madoff had to come up with $7 billion in a hurry, but most of his bilked money was tied up in jets, real estate, foreign stocks, etc...

There was no way regulators could have caught him.

One of the Real Problems
One of the real problems is that many government employees other than just Congress also does not pay into SS. They pay into a government retirement fund (that the government also contributes to) and that fund is one the government does NOT steal from. Then, when the employee retires, he gets all the cash AND without a lot of trouble also draws from SS money he never paid in to it. Until recently, here in Texas at least, it was legal for a school teacher, who pays to the government fund, to work ONE DAY at a SS job and draw full SS benefits as well as the other retirement. (The teachers were upset when this was changed. A lot of them took retirement just for this reason before the law changed.) There are still a lot of government employees other than Congress that does not pay SS taxes. This needs to be changed too.

SS Taxes and investment
I once figured that if you could take the money paid to SS on your behalf by you and your employer and invest it at 5% (you used to be able to do this in banks) you'd have over a million dollars upon retirement. Then you could live on the interest and leave the principle to your kids. But the government gets both interest and principle.

They USED to "borrow" against it by transfering bonds or Treasury notes to the SS fund. But they gave that up when they realized they might have to pay the money back. Now they just take it. The real problem with SS being "broke" is not that it is - it is that they can't take as much as they used to take.

You do realize why this happens, right?
There used to be a time when leaders like we've had would be yanked out of bed, tarred, feathered, and rode out of town on a rail. Today we're too polite. Instead we make them wealthy as they give speeches for thousands of dollars a pop, no matter how shameful their actions while in office. Republicans, Democrats, it doesn't matter.
These people get caught doing things or mess things up so badly that in the past they'd do themselves in, or certainly become recluses for life. Today they stand and wave with grins on their faces in front of ignorant crowds of adoring fans.

h20skier
u get 250.00 to bury them. just went thru this with my father, he passed away on christmas morning and my mom gets 250.00 to help pay for burial.

by the way, that cost a little more than 10,000.00, with no service

my wife and i have 2 prepaid cremations, cost us about 1000.00 each a few years ago.

THE PONZ FONZ
50,BILLION!WOW!

THE FLIM FLAM MAN OF OUR TIME!
HE STOLE FROM THE WHOLE VILLAGE!SAD.

Mr. Stossel

Best column yet and very accurate.

Possible unintended consequenses
Maybe Universal Health care will be the cure to the SS problem. Soon after that system is "imposed", it will become overburdened and underfunded due to its shear magnitude. The time to takes to actually recieve rationed care increases and many folks may not make it out alive while waiting for governmental approval and scheduling of a test or surgery. Reduce life expectancy and maybe SS is fixed. I know, kind of dark and far fetched, but it wouldn't be the first time we got something we didn't ask for.

Stossel Hits the Nail on the Head
Once again John Stossel has hit the nail on the head. Thanks, John, for being willing to say the emperor has no clothes and still surviving with your media job. You may be their token pro-taxpayer spokesman, but we need you.

Just for the record I get Social Security and Medicare and can attest first hand that doctors don't care how high the bill is and they don't expect you to either. After all you're not paying it. Medicare is. It's free. OR is it?

Somebody good at Stats
CAn somebody tell me what the true demographics for the boomers are?
Watching the obits in the local papers it seems they're dropping like flies. Leads me to believe there won't be as many of them to pay off as the doom sayers would have us believe.
But I don't know. It is a casual obseravtion.

Want to Fix the Problem?
Find a way to make the politicians use the SS and Medicare systems and adhere to the laws they pass governing the normal taxpayer. As a noted statesman said some years ago "You no playa the game, you no make the rules". When the exempt themselves from many of the laws governing us and really have no accountability, all is pretty well lost for our kids and grandkids.

baseballdoc - TX 10:33AM
"OUR GOVERNMENT IS A PONZI SCHEME"

Agreed!

Madoff's mistake is.....
taking the actions he did as a private citizen rather than getting elected and taking the same actions as a congressman.

Had he run for office and been elected to congress he could have been appointed to the Social Security committee or even made Chairman of the committee, and any action taken would have been legal and not subject civil action.

Let this be a lesson for those out there with grand ideas to be the next Madoff.....just do what you want AFTER being elected to office and all will be good.


As for the ideas of revolt, I'm ready willing and able. If enough of us band together we can conduct a civil revolt that requires no weapons or results in no loss of life, although I wouldn't trust those in power to not use the police and even the armed forces to repel a civil revolt, but any injury or loss of life THEY cause will just show how desperate they are to hold on to power.

It is either take back America now or rebuild it after a major collapse.

Abortion
Proof? Hard math? Reference?

I've seen this arguement paraded about before, and I've never seen it supported by anything other than emotion.

Re: Madoff!!!
I don't understand why this theif is not in jail!! But such is the way of LIBERAL court system!!!

OUR GOVERNMENT IS A PONZI SCHEME

.....When FDR became President in 1932 the Public Sector (Federal Government) was 2% of the GNP ...anyone care to guess what it is today? ...

.....The Public Sector has become a giant tick sucking the blood out of workers and Corporations who have become host to the government parasites who live off tax receipts and produce no wealth but only redistribute the wealth of business and ultimately the workers ...

.....Now Obama wants to add 600,000 more to the Public Dole, all unionized with guaranteed pensions down the road ...while the private sector is shrinking ...the public sector is growing ...what happens when the leech becomes bigger than the host? .....COLOSSUS

Idea
Well, I'll run this up the flag pole and see what happens ...

How about rather than spend future generations' monies on bailouts and more programs, we Citizens who have monies in SS (SS hmmmm, sounds familiar) are refunded those monies?

My thinking:

1. My income was somewhat depressed because my employers were forced to contribute and administer this bi-monthy atrocity on behalf of the government.

2. I expect to be the one to decide if I want to save for retirement or not. If I don't, guess I am just out of luck.

3. The influx of cash into the economy would be substantial.


Do it the old fashioned way...
There are 2 simple rules which, if followed, can easily replace social security and medicare:

1. Save and invest 15% of your income - business, real estate, securities, cash.

2. Do not treat your children as a burden, and they will not see you as a burden in the future.

Social Insecurity for Commoners
In my younger years the government was increasing their benefits to better match the private sectors benefit packages. Most of us are aware that our government employees benefits have far surpassed our benefits. Seeing as we are now being excluded from decent retirements benefits due to government intervention, maybe now is the time to incorporate Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid into the government program/s which are fully financed (TRILLIONS AVAILABLE). We common workers would feel secure, the underprivilaged will be taken care of, unfortunates escaping tyranical governments would have a safe haven with medical, housing and job benefits and we can all be equal. The wealth will be divided fairly, hope will be instilled in all hearts and a bright future for all will be a fact and no longer just a dream.
The age of change and hope will have arrived.
Praise be to OBAMA and company. Free at last, free to not worry, free to retire, free to be healthy, free at last. Free at last.

Another sad truth:
...most Americans are not familiar with the term 'unfunded liability.' However, we are quite aware of the slogan 'for the children' regarding government spending on education, for example.

What a lie. The sole 'gift' we are bequeathing is a vast debt burden that will be unbearable.

We elect, and continue to re-elect, irresponsible frauds who perpetuate the bankruptcy of our republic.

One of the most adept purveyors of this lie is slated to assume the presidency of the USA. May God help us.


If you pay people to do something
you will get more of it. So if you pay people for growing old, you will get more old people.

You are right Madoff is a piker
That is why I and many others support the Fair Tax Act. It funds Social Secuity and Medicare with a broader base. Everyone who buys a new product or service at the retail level gets to contribute. Your contribution is voluntary, you choose whether to purchase the product or service.

Tens of trillions…of what?
The numbers these government idiots throw around are a physical impossibility. The are merely mathematical figures of speech. They may be bandied about in political speech, and even written down in the numeric form, BUT… they are not real… they do not exist, indeed they cannot exist in actual monetary form. It is physically impossible unless you DEflate the dollar a million times, or more.

Forty trillion dollars divided by 300 million Americans is approximately $133,000,000 per citizen in liquid assets (or liability). I personally do not know a single American who is that wealthy, or indebted, let alone EVERY American fitting that profile.

The only possible way out of our dilemma is through a drastically reduced population. (Perhaps this explains war, famine, starvation, holocaust-like events, which seem acute to our human condition).

Face it folks… we're screwed.

Game over.

To Regina
Good post. God is not mocked. What a Nation sows so shall they reap.The firestorm is here.

Over-reaching Federal Government
Those of us 70 and above are probably the "lucky ones". We're the last generation which will receive the full benefits of medicare and social security as presently constituted. At that point, we can go to our just rewards having received the financial reward and proper medical care for which we have contracted in good faith. Those who come after us, I fear, will not be as fortunate. The ultimate message: "Put not your trust in expanded government".

Medicare - Folks. Concentrate on it.
It's Medicare - not Social Security. Go back to that line in the article that points out that Social Security is only $4.3 trillion of the total of $40.3 trillion.

Why? Because the cost of medical care in the last 15 years (65 to 80) of someone's life are far higher than the costs of Social Security.

If you collect $1200 month from SS for 15 years you'd get $220,000 or so.

A 5 hour hand operation involving two fingers and your palm costs $100,000. And you'll go home the same day. God forbid you have a heart problem - or a liver problem, or don't want the machines turned off that are keeping you alive.

We're already paying almost 2X as much as the other industrialized first world countries for medical care. And medical costs continue to rise much faster than income. Indeed, in 8 years they've increased by 80%. Did your income go up by 80%?

It's medicine folks. SS is only 11% of the total problem. And it isn't going to end. It doesn't matter what Obama does, anymore than it mattered what McCain wanted to do. It also doesn't matter what the AMA, Insurance Industry, Trial Lawyers, Drug companies, or the rest think.

It's all going to crash and burn. And when it does - the US will end up with a single payer system - just like everyone else has. It will be mediocre, but, then, mediocrity is the inevitable outcome of health care. Get used to it.

Risky stock market scheme
[blockquote]Get that? You have no "accrued property rights" under Social Security. It's a welfare program that exists at the politicians' pleasure.[/blockquote]

Whenever privatization is proposed, opponents always denounce it as risky. This charge is completely backwards - Social Security is the risky scheme. Politicians can change the rules whenever they feel like it. It inevitable that they will go to white-collar professionals and say "Sorry, someone else deserves it more." Regardless of how hard you worked or the student loans you incurred.

Thanks for making this point.

You reap what you sow
The millions and millions of babies who have been killed because having them would have been an "inconvenience" or an "expense" would really come in handy now, not only for social security payments, but to look after us as we age.

And now that we have no "new Americans" to contribute to the Social Security program, everyone is screaming about immigration as well. We should be advertising for immigrants to come and work here.

It seems like the BB's want to have "free love and sex", spend, spend, spend, "go bankrupt" and stick it to the banks and creditors, then retire and have the government take care of them, but don't want any immigrants walking around trying to better their lives.

My father's generation paid the least into social security, including wives who never worked a day in their lives, and received the best and most benefits from it.

I've been working, working, working, paying and paying and paying and it looks like I'm set to become the first "level" who has to work until I'm 70 and then get probably 1/2 of what my parents had. Now with the disappearance of the 401K money I've also been saving, it's so discouraging.

Ponzi scheme
One thing I would say to the american people who are condemning those on Social Security.
If we had said to the government, I refuse to give you any of my wages for this giant Ponzi Scheme,Social Security, we would have landed in jail. The government would have taken all we had saved. It is easy to stand on a stump and crow. Its not so easy to live the walk. Now that the IRA accounts we had so diligently paid into, have lost most of our nest eggs, we definitely are in deep butt dust.
We do and will most likely get a revolution in this nation. Most likely we will look just like the middle east in a few years.
Or may be the Butt dusters in Washington will come up with another ponzi scheme. If the government would leave us alone and do what they are supposed to do, just may be those who survive will not be such marsh mellow, soft belly wonders of the world.

Madoff's Ponzi Scheme
John,
Here's your definition of a Ponzi scheme, "Perpetrators of Ponzi schemes lead clients to believe their money is invested and that their profits are the fruits of the money manager's savvy. But in fact, the "profits" are merely revenue provided by the next group of dupes. Eventually, when no more new dupes can be found, the scheme crashes."

In truth, you can even lead the"investment" part out. As weird as this affair is, it palls in comparison with Social Security, the biggest and oldes (and most cherished) Ponzi Scheme of all.

Social Sec.
You know what? The SSI program that was forced on us by the government without our consent and which we paid dearly into for all our working lives. I am 67 years old and do collect social security. I am so tired of being called the wrong in America. To all you who post here, The american government has and is running many Ponzi schemes. If The Democrat President Lyndon Johnson would have left the monies in social security trust alone, it would still be in good condition. Just take a look at these butt dust slingers in government, county, state, federal, they are all ponzi schemers. They all leave government with millions of the tax payers dollars. They spend your money and tell you its your fault.
We need another Boston Tea Party, however not to throw tea in the harbor, all these ponzi schemers in government should be thrown in and the citizens should be given long wooden poles to prevent them from getting ashore.

Double standard
Once again our wonderful government bad mouths and prosecutes an individual for doing something they have been doing and defending for decades. Those of you who think the government is the answer to every problem need to wake up and see it for the power hungry, overbearing, we-know-better-than-you, bottomless money pit it is. Those responsible for the current economic mess are pointing their crooked little finger at everyone but themselves.
It is time for a revolution. Eliminate social security and medicare, eliminate income tax and incorporate the Fair Tax. Grow up and quit relying on "mommy and daddy" to take care of you!

SS Fund = Monopoly Money
The current status of SS is all the more reason to allow investor choice in where it is invested. President Bush was right in trying to change the program. The firestorm of criticism he incurred is because Congress with all it's perks and chairmanships can't stand the idea of losing control of our money, which in their mind is like monopoly money and more importantly, is theirs.

Being a member of the Congress is no longer about representation of states and constituents, it has become all about power, getting it and keeping it. In Washington, money is power and not one of the congressional fat cats will voluntarily part with power. Having control of your money is the basis of their power. Don't look for them to relinquish any control of your money to you.

I propose to solutions to getting Congressmen to listen to you:

1. Vote out incumbents who have been in office for more than one term.

2. Get voting requirements changed so that only people who actually pay taxes can vote. People who pay no taxes are always going to demand more from those who do.

3. In keeping with #2, switch to Steve Forbes' proposed flat tax from which no wage earner is exempt. If you live and work in the USA, you should pay taxes. If you pay taxes, maybe you will help elect those who will spend your money wisely as opposed to just buying a constituency of welfare recipients.

Health care
Another insightful piece from John Stossel. He mentions an unfunded liability of 40 trillion over the next 35 years, other sources(WSJ) quote as high as 76 trillion.

The gov't cannot possibly meet the current obligations of Medicare and yet, Glowbama has appointed Tom Daschle to lead his health care team with the goal of implementing an even larger, more widespread gov't run system. Has everyone lost their mind? Severe rationing of care, low pay for health care providers, long waits and shoddy service would be the absolute best case scenario. Wake up people, before its too late!

Way down the tracks...
around the bend there is a really big train wreck coming and we are riding the train. The sadness is that we were born on the train and don't know how to get off.

File criminal charges
Just about every elected politician who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution is guilty of lying under oath.

How about filing criminal charges for perjury? We can start with several members of the Supreme Court.

More of a Pyramid Scheme
Social Security is closer to a pyramid scheme than a Ponzi scheme. Pyramid schemes are paid to the earlier "investors", in the case of Social Security, older individuals, with money from the new generation. Ponzi schemes work differently using shares of investments to pay off returns for everyone currently in the system. I don't get anything out of Social Security now at 27, not even a little bit to act as if my investment is coming back.

88% of everyone in a pyramid scheme gets nothing back out of it. Going to be the same with Social Security, just deciding how big that 88% is will be our legacy. Eliminate it now, cold turkey, it will be smaller than cutting it in the future.

SS needs to totally privatized
The dems won't do it because it is one of their sacred cows instituted by their great leader FDR and it has been buying them votes since day one.

Their arguement is it would cost as much as a trillion to do, that's BS and considering what they are now doing with the auto industry, that rings more than a little hollow.

If SS were privatized over a 20 year time frame, which is do-able and if they had done it when Bush suggested, we'd be almost halfway there now, the money would be invested rather than given away and we probably wouldn't be in this financial mess. SS can and should be turned into a program similar to the retirement system the federal employees and the pols have.

Private accounts where your kids get it when your dead, not some bum who never contributed a dime, it's another socialistic spread the wealth program and was destined to fail from the gate. It got passed because of the depression, another crises used by the pols to grow their power over us and steal our money.

LBJ and the dems took the SS money and put it into general revenues to pay for his "great society" vote buying scam and the pols have been squandering it ever since on pet projects.

With the dems running the show it will never happen, they could not care less about us, just our money.

When will we ever learn, you never trust a democrat with your money or national security.


Playing the Numbers
Pre-reading the previous posts I.....

Was reminded of some one saying the first people to protest the abortion issue should have be the big corporations. When you just factor in the commercial value of millions of lost sales. GM,Ford, Sony, HP would be beating down the doors of congress yelling your killing our future customers. (not a good way to put this) but, still money appears to have more power than the rights of lives. Maybe we should have the abortion Doctors pay a special tax of lets say 3million per abortion?

This Confirms It!!!!
We elect people and have for decades men that are unable or unwilling to do the right thing.
Goofballs,empty suits,that can not think. Once the power rested in the debate over common sense now the debate centers around how do we look on TV and the polls. I guess the bottom line is we the people have given up and really lost the idea of building our own nation.

Michael From Arkansas
I never dreamt Townhall would be better then any sitcom from the 60's. I don't really have time to write this stuff, but your Arkansas humor had me rolling on the floor

. . . what's so important that you want to do it forever?

Yippee! Yeah, if it's so damn important, why didn't you do it earlier in life. Sounds like poor planning to me.

. . . New hearts . . . new everything . . ."Doctor" is laughing all the way to the bank.

Hee-haw! And a lot of those parts are not brand spanking new, they have some miles on them. Do you get a discount?

. . . haven't seen a "Doctor" for 10 years. What for?

Right on! Just like a Timex, you keep on ticking. Besides, doctors only relay either good news or bad news. If it's bad news, who in the hell wants to hear it? I don't!

. . . everybody I know who died was under a "Doctor's" care at the time.

Excuse me for rolling on the floor in laughter. Well, just goes to show you that it's the art of medicine and not the science of medicine.

. . . Golfers. I don't want to hear about another quadruple bypass. Most of them couldn't hit the ball before it, and certainly are no fun now, stumbling around . . .

Ha ha! Now don't be too quick to judge. They may perform better in the bedroom then on the golf course. If so, I envy them.

. . . This group will be a joy to leave.

Let me know when you're ready and I'll uncork a bottle and salute you.

. . . if you haven't got 'er done in your first 70 years, it ain't gonna get done.

A most memorable observation. If I use your name, can I quote you?

Thanks much for bringing a little humor into my otherwise drab life and stay healthy.

Stephen Dorn
Shenyang, China
Formerly from Missouri

P.S. Whoa, boy! Oakley from CO hit the nail on the head. Abortion kills the geese that could have laid the golden eggs to keep Social Security solvent.

Greed
Is there any difference between the greedy investors that Madoff sucked in and we americans that won't let anyone fix social security or medicare? Is there any difference between the "Madoff investors" and the union members of the teamsters who were happy with Hoffa as long as they got theirs? I really don't see much difference other than the size of the checks. Greed is greed and while a good motivator, we carry it a bit too far.

USA Fraud
I thought it would take much longer for us to destroy this once great country. Damn, it has taken us no time at all! What a "Great Society"!

OK Michael in AR
Way to go.
With that attitude, you'll probably outlive all your lousy golfer friends.

Such common sense the world could use a lot more of!

Blame?
Give me a break. "...of the people, by the people, for the people...."

And the people are "going to see doctor." Like Stossel reported, it's the Medicare that's going to break us. That's "us."

Tell me, what is there to do so important that you want to do it forever?

Medicare recipients over the age of 70 are the ones breaking the whole idea. New hearts, etc., new everything. And "Doctor" is laughing all the way to the bank, for now.

I'm 71, haven't seen a "Doctor" for 10 years. What for? My work career was self-employed -- I paid in twice as much as any employee. I hated the whole idea of Medicare.

Plus, everybody I know who died, was under a "Doctor's" care, at the time.

I dislike my fellow Golfers. I don't want to hear about another quadruple bypass. Most of them couldn't hit the ball before it, and certainly are no fun now, stumbling around.

This group will be a joy to leave.

After all, if you haven't got 'er done in your first 70 years, it ain't gonna get done.

Oakley
Just think, if all those millions of aborted babies were alive, Social Security might have been more viable..(sorry to use that word). AND the Baby Boomer's children would have been around to help care for and about them.

The politicians are to blame for sure, but the Baby Boomers and their "free" love, "free sex" with no consequences is coming back to bite them in the butt. Maybe the consequences have just been delayed, that's all.

No 'Money' Left Behind

The Barack Obama administration will go down in history as the "No 'Money' left behind" era.

Tax

Tax

Tax

Tax

David
One other point. If you had invested 10% of your earnings when you die your heirs would receive all of the money left over. With SS, when you die your family gets, I think, $600 for burial. Yet the Democrats demonize anyone who mentions privatizing SS.

Ahhh, Social Security!

My investment friend told me that if you put 10% of your gross income in a low risk funds, bonds, etc. that you'll retire will double what SS will give you.....hmmm... he calls Social Security "Social Stupidity" and I tend to agree because when I talk to others the first argument they use is who will pay for the people that didn't save their money. The other flaccid argument is look at what happened to the market, well if your retiring soon then I would have had very little in aggressive funds. When the government says that we need SS, I take the statement as your stupid (me) and we're (government) smart and you will be taken care of.....NOT!

So . . .
Since the American government is a bankrupt lying fraud, what should us hard-working people do with this bankrupt American lying fraud of a self-proclaimed government?!?

Well I know what Washington, Jefferson, and Adams did to the British!

Revolution!

Amen
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