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Wednesday, August 13, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Whose Business Is It Anyway?
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


"Stossel is a pig."

"Wait and see how he is going to react when he [gets] fired by ABC News without a reason, just because he is skinny like a monkey."

Lots of "20/20" viewers hated what I said about age discrimination laws on TV.

Most everyone says anti-discrimination laws are good laws, especially those that protect older workers.

But they're not.

This year, Kansas City DJs Max Floyd and Tanna Guthrie sued their radio station for firing them.

"The reason for firing was [that] they're changing formats, which they didn't really," Max Floyd told me for my "Give Me a Break" segment.

"Why wouldn't they keep us?" Tanna Guthrie asks. "We've been there, loyal with the company, and they didn't change the music a lot."

Discrimination lawsuits like theirs are common today. They create nasty, unintended consequences: Older workers find it more difficult to get hired since companies are reluctant to hire people who could become lawsuit age-discrimination bombs. I'm told some companies set aside $100,000 for legal fees and settlement money for every older worker who isn't doing a good job. What a waste.

Lawyer Murray Schwartz has won millions suing companies for age discrimination. He told me, "A company shouldn't be able to say, 'A 36-year-old fellow would do it better than the 52-year-old fellow.'"

They just shouldn't be allowed?

"Never. And that's what the law says."

The law does. But the law can be an ass, and American law contradicts itself. FBI agents must retire at 57, airline pilots by 65. But it's illegal for ABC to fire me if my boss thinks I'm too old?

Bruce Morrow has been a radio star for decades. When the Beatles came to America, "Cousin Brucie" introduced them.

Three years ago, he was fired. Abruptly.

He was furious, but Morrow has a new perspective on the issue because he's owned radio stations.

"I've fired several disc jockeys. We are in a business of change. Many people on the radio station who have worked there 15, 20 years don't fit there anymore. They might not sound, age-wise, proper. There's ethics here. But [then] there's reality."

American labor law clashes with reality. The government once even tried to force Hooters, that restaurant chain famous for sexy waitresses, to hire men to wait on tables. Only after Hooters mocked the government by running ads depicting a hairy Hooters man in a skimpy waitress outfit did the EEOC lawyers drop their case.

Protecting older workers interferes with the market's "creative destruction", the dynamic process that allows businesses to grow though constant change. That growth creates new opportunity for other workers, including older workers.

Roger Pilon of the libertarian Cato Institute says workers should stop thinking they own their jobs: "Freedom permits unfairness, and free markets sometimes encourage it; but what's the alternative? Since the categories in which discrimination might be prohibited are in principle infinite, down that road is the death of individual choice."

Pilon asks the basic question: "Whose business is it? Suppose you're an Italian restaurateur and you want to have only Italian men as your waiters because that's the ambience you want. Shouldn't you be able to do that?"

I would think so, but American law says no.

We don't need laws against discrimination. We need a free, competitive marketplace. Competition is better at punishing sexists, racists and "ageists" than clumsy laws. If a boss discriminated against, say, women, he would be demolished by a competitor who obtains better workers by hiring the women the first boss turned away. If an entire group of bosses turned women away, then men's wages would be bid up over women's, and a new competitor would defeat the discriminators by hiring only women.

Schwartz indignantly asked me, "Who has the right to say that you should stop working when you're 50 or 52 or 53? The boss?"

I said yes, the guy who's paying you ought to get to decide.

"No," he said. "You own your job as long as you're performing effectively."

That's the attitude of today's parasitic labor lawyers: You "own" your job. And this attitude is winning in the arena of public opinion. Never have I received such consistently hostile e-mail.

"I hope you get fired."

"You think that mid-50s is too old to hold a job?"

"Give me a Break! Unless you plan on supporting me for the next 10 years, I suggest you revise your segment."

Give me a break. I didn't say older workers ought to be fired. Heck, I'm 61. Viewers are so invested in job "rights" that they missed the point about freedom of association, private property, an employer's right to control a business he created, etc.

Good intentions are irrelevant. Public policy always has unintended bad consequences. One reason France has nasty riots over high unemployment is France's restrictive labor laws. French employers think, "I don't want to hire someone whom I'll never be able to fire."

Schwartz says repealing the worker-protection laws would be a "disaster."

No, innovation-stifling laws and lawsuits are the disaster.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Amen, John
Another example of the growing entitlement mentality in the citizens of this country. We are like a bunch of spoiled brats who think that whatever we want we should have. We want our 'daddy' to force others to give it to us because we think it's a 'right'.

As Ayn Rand said, "If some men are entitled, by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

"Any alleged 'right' of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.

"No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty, or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as 'the right to enslave.'"
-- From an Essay entitled 'Man's Rights' found in her book, 'The Virtue of Selfishness'.

Workers of the world, unite!
Thank you for exposing the dangerous mindset of "owning one's job." That is one of the main problems with the socialist labor markets of France, Germany, and other European nations. Their laws make it practically impossible to fire employees, so companies are extremely reluctant to hire anyone. That market distortion disproportionately hurts young, poor, and low-skilled workers who are struggling to gain experience and new skills. Why should French and German companies take huge risks on "unknown quantities" whom they can never fire when they could instead hire older, more experienced workers who have proven themselves to be reliable and diligent?

That's why France and Germany have chronic unemployment rates around 8%. And the Left wants to import that to the U.S.?

American Fascism
We have degenerated from a republic toward democracy and are approaching fascism. This disastrous system has no problem with the illusion of private ownership so long as government controls all the important policies and procedures. Then, when the inevitable disasters occur (oil, S&Ls, mortgage companies, homes, etc.), the fascist voters and their representatives scapegoat the "evil" but only nominal owners.

Slogan of American fascists: "There ought to be a law..."

Ayn Rand goes on to say...
"A right does not include the material implementation of that right by other men; it only includes the freedom to earn that implementation by one's own effort.

"Observe, in this context, the intellectual precision of the Founding Fathers: they spoke of the right to the pursuit of happiness--not of the right to happiness. It means that a man has the right to take the actions he deems necessary to achieve his happiness; it does not mean that others must make him happy.

"The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life.

"The right to property means that a man has the right to take the economic actions necessary to earn property, to use it, and to dispose of it; it does not mean that others must provide him with property.

"The right of free speech means that a man has the right to express his ideas without danger of suppression, interference, or punitive action by the government. It does not mean that others must provide him with a lecture hall, a radio station, or a printing press through which to express his ideas.

"Any undertaking that involves more than one man, requires the voluntary consent of every participant. Every one of them has the right to make his own decision, but none has the right to force his decision on the others.

And more...

"There is no such thing as 'a right to a job'--there is only the right of free trade, that is: a man's right to take a job if another man chooses to hire him. There can be no 'right to a home,' only the right of free trade: the right to build a home or to buy it. There are no 'rights to a "fair" wage or a "fair" price' if no one chooses to pay it, to hire a man, or to buy his product. There are no 'rights of consumers' to milk, shoes, movies, or champagne if no producers choose to manufacture such items (there is only the right to manufacture them oneself). There are no 'rights' of special groups, there are no 'rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.' There are only the Rights of Man--rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals.

"Property rights and the right of free trade are man's only 'economic rights' (they are, in fact, political rights)--and there can be no such thing as 'an economic bill of rights.'" (See the Democratic Platform of 1960)

True story, Germany 1985

After the mechanic fixed our minor problem, I asked why he didn’t hire more people, and make better use of his building.

His response, “If I hire the wrong person, the law makes it almost impossible to get rid of him.

Since I can’t hire another ‘me,’ I have less problems if I just do it myself.”

Rather than rent to the wrong person, many apartments are left empty.

One of my Sweetie’s Cousins had an unwanted tenant for 15 years, no way to get rid of him.

Too much government control explains at least some of the
unemployment and housing problems in Germany.
(Niedereschbach, Germany)



I"m glad to see,
of the five comments I've read so far, that Ayn Rand is alive and well. I hope these comments go a long way to make up for some of the e-mails John cited as examples.

Way to go, John.

Stossel is a dunce, again
Every law ever written (including the 10 commandments) is designed to stop a stupid person from mistreating somebody else. If Stossel argued that the laws will have no effect, he might be right. (There should be a law about getting overpaid to write the drivel he does, but that too would have no effect) But instead he tramps out some senseless anecdotes and forgets to observe that the "owner" already has more protections under the law than anyone else. And it is only because they have so many protections that they can discard employees like waste products in their factory-mindset.

Only when the government acts to prevent the weak is the government 'wrong' in his view. When the government protects the strong, then it is the 'natural' order of things. This hypocrisy is thousands of years old, and the powerful only survive by the mercy of the oppressed. If the weak treated the powerful the way the powerful treat the weak, the powerful would be begging for mercy, like sinners in Hell asking for a drop of water.

Beware John, you may reap what you sow.

re: Jim, Another example from Germany...
When I worked as a Post-doc at a research lab in Germany our research group went on a visit to BASF in Leverkusen, yes the BASF that makes your DVDs, its a gigantic german chemicals company, at the end of our tour of their factory, meeting scientists etc... we had a talk from one of the grey suited muckymucks, a real arrogant windbag if you ask me. He categorically stated that "We want people with (insert godlike qualifications), who are preferrably under 28, and under no circumstances will we ever hire anyone over 32 under any circumstance. This is the sour fruit of legislated "job security". Sure its hard to get fired in Germany but if you do lose your job and you are over 40 its no or marginal employment for the rest of your life Im afraid... much better to let the old DJ get fired by the "hits radio" station and get rehired by an "Oldies but Goldies" station, its the invisible hand of the free market and its no fairytale unlike "a secure job that you own"

Steve
Are you trying to out-do "Loyal Democrat" for satire?

Unca Alby
What i find most amusing about folks like Steve who think they are best served by laws restricting merit based behavior, is that they spend so much time accusing conservatives of cowardice. To a lib, foresight and caution is cowardice. Meanwhile, they look to nanny govt to protect them from the consequences of their screwups. A dynamic economy requires reward of risk and judgement. If sloth and incompetence is not rewarded less than merit, they will increase. Who wants to work when loafing is just as well paid?

great article, and great posts
and then there is Steve. Stevie boy, go pay your oppressive taxes in MA, live by your pernicious laws, and leave private property rights to people who understand what our founding fathers intended this great country to be.

Productivity, Not Free Rides
We hire temporary seasonal workers to harvest our produce and pay them based on their individual productivity. It doesn't matter if you are old, young, male or female. You produce more, you get paid more. This principle should rule all employer-employee relations.
If you are a DJ it shouldn't matter how old you are but your ratings should decide if you keep your job or lose it. The same can be said in any human (productive) endeavor. Government employees (unproductive) are a different case alltogether, they need at least three people to do the job of one in the private sector.

What Age discrimination?
I have heard that many business hire "older experienced" workers because they unlike younger "me generation" workers are more reliable. They actually show up on time ready to work. Gee, what an epifany. Let's apply age discrimination to pro sports and force teams to keep washed up player long after their prime. If forced retirement is good enough for the FBI then it should be good enough for the rest of us.

steve the communist
Steve does not believe in private enterprise, private property, or free association. He thinks n terms of the weak and the strong. Thank you Lenin.

Missed Opportunity
John: You are correct in your assertion that the employer should own the job, not the employee. But you could have mentioned the concept of the employment contract, which protects both employers and employees. These can include mutually agreed upon compensation, bonuses, term of contract, and performance expectations. If either party under performs the contract is void and either the employee is released, or the employer must pay up. Yes, it has the potential to keep the lawyers busy, but it spells out the responsibilities of each party.

And there is a simpler agreement called an "At Will" agreement that an employee signs that states he can quit at any time for no reason, and the employer can fire him at any time for no reason.

I can't imagine hiring someone without one of these or a similar tool.

New career
I'm 52 years old and starting a new career. I enjoy my new job, and look forward to advancing my career. There will be disappointment if I don't get the promotion I really wanted, but I'm a big boy and have been told "no thank you" many times. My experience has taught me to leave my ego at the door, but I still retain my confidence. I think older workers fear the reduction in salary, I did, but I started a second job to make up the difference. In conclusion, I'm a happier person today and look forward to the future. Losing my job wasn't as bad as many people make it out to be. My Grandmother always told us kids that God closes a door but opens a window. Go find the open window.

state of mind
I have been working contract jobs for the past eight years (white collar project management).

I made the move from a "permanent" position to a contract position at another company, because my employer was financial trouble and going down the tubes.

At first working as a contractor was unsettling. I felt disposable.

After a few years, I realized I was very marketable. I am also naturally frugal, so all the extra money I have been making has been going into my Vanguard account.

I stay on top of my resume and do some low-cost self training and get certifications from time to time. My income has doubled in the past 6 years, and that would likely never have happened as an employee.

Now my view is that the employer is the one who is disposable. If the employer gets out of line, I move onto another job... and for usually more money.

The downside of being a contractor is that you need to stay on your toes, and make sure the man paying the bills thinks you are providing value every week. The up-side is that I make a lot more money and I feel free.

The downside to being a "permanent" employee is that you are investing blindly on faith that the employer will do you good in the long run, and be financially viable in the long run. Employees make less money in exchange for perceived stability and a possible future payoff.

I own my bank account, and my skills & experience. That is all I belive in.

I am free, and beholding to no one.

Gotta Disagree in Part, Stossel
You write as though companies and a number of industries don't already receive generous subsidies and other special consideration from government. If we want truly free markets - get rid of all corporate income taxes AND corporate subsidies, eliminating the need for lobbying of an overreaching Congress.

One more point, Stossel assumes that a totally free labor market means companies will continue to hire American workers - not the case. As we have seen in IT, agriculture and a number of service industries, American companies prefer to hire foreigners because they're cheaper and to import cheap labor both legal and illegal, pushing those costs onto the American taxpayer and resulting in an unmanageable explosion in population, crime and public costs.

I don't argue that free labor markets are bad, but I am American and probably more nationalistic than Stossel. I don't believe the leveling forces of global labor markets are necessarily good for this country.

Amen
"Roger Pilon of the libertarian Cato Institute says workers should stop thinking they own their jobs"

Amen! How were we ever sold on the bizarre idea that the government has any business telling employers that they can't hire and fire workers based on any criteria they see fit? The government's only role in stopping discrimination is to prevent any discrimination on its own part.

Job freedom
More people need to run a small business and see the need to hire and fire without fear of lawsuit. John is right on about needing less government interference. No employee owns their job. That is the problem with our school teachers and college professors.

Reply to Johnnyp
After contracting successfully for a decade, I entered education. I tell every student in every class, "ULTIMATELY, you work for yourself." Anyone who puts "loyalty to" and "the company" in the same phrase is a fool. Do not ever put your employer's interests ahead of your own, because they WILL NOT put your interest ahead of theirs.

(I am not, BTW, suggesting that employers should put employees' interests ahead of their own. The Rand quotes above are exactly right.)

Contracts and at will
Gallitegfa (sp?) raises an interesting point. I saw it play out in the medical field when I worked there.

A hospital was sued by a nurse that it fired. She alleged that the hospital did not follow the clearly defined procedures for hiring and firing that the hospital itself had adopted and published in the Employee Handbook.

The hospital lost. Since it was in a "right to work" state, it sent a memo to all employees the day after the decision saying -- and I paraphrase only slightly -- The Employee Handbook is no longer operative. You may be fired for any reason or no reason.

Shortly thereafter, the hospital was sued again, by a patient that did not like the service he received. The hospital defended itself by saying that its training clearly outlined service procedures -- as outlined in the Employee Handbook. The plaintiff produced the memo. Judgment for the plaintiff....

Final thought
Sorry to break things up in three posts, but this provoked a lot of thought for me.

The problem comes up when employees let their emotions get involved. For various reasons, some people need or simply want a stable environment. This engages the emotions when that need/want is denied, but emotions -- and lawsuits -- aren't helpful.

Therefore, my suggestions for those who want or need stability in their current job:

1) Learn every company secret that you can, and sign nothing that you're not absolutely forced to. Companies think twice about cutting employees who can take every detail of the operation to the competition.

2) Learn every PERSONAL secret that you can, and get proof. Companies think more than twice about cutting the employee who knows which "administrative assistants" are spreading their legs for which "associate VPs," which "CFOs" are making and taking payoffs and kickbacks, etc. The corollary, of course, is you have to be squeaky clean yourself.

Are we, or are we not a free country?
Are we, or are we not a free country? A simple question? Should be! But too many people and especially the politicians (mostly Dumbocrats), they think freedom is a relative thing. People are free to start businesses, but not free to choose who works for them! How does that make us a free country? The direction the Dumbocrats want to take us, we someday (soon?) will be just like France, a second rate economic / business country that someday soon will face a BIG financial crisis. Whill they survive? Who knows? Do you want us to be like France?

John
I am often amazed by Americans who think that they understand economics.I see people, who think that they understand:Socialism,Capitalism and Communism.When I encounter these people, I am reminded of Dr.Galbraith."Capitalism is when man exploits man and Communism is the exact opposite".The devil does not seek to destroy man by his ignorance but by what he thinks that he knows.

Freedom to succeed includes the freedom
to fail! If you remove the freedom to fail from the equation, then the freedom to succeed is also removed. That is the socialist/communist way!

Another Lawyer Subsidy
One wonders where in the Constitution the paragraph exists that gives the federal government the authority to legislate this law which is codified under 29CFR1625.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/29cfr1625_03. html

This law, like almost all new laws, has become nothing more than a “lawyer make work” scheme. It should be repealed, or better yet, made applicable to congress. If we did that a lot of laws like this would never come into being.

In Re Doc Liberty
I don't know about you, but I've had to sign a Confidentiality Agreement and Non-compete Agreement every single job I've had. My work entails handling sensitive and confidential information. What you propose in terms of disseminating this information is actionable and I've seen more than 1 person who violates these agreements subjected to equitable and legal remedies. I wouldn't recommend it. Not only that, it's considered unethical. Sure, I know that doesn't mean much these days, but I take that seriously and I expect others to do the same.

Your second recommendation is funny. Am I the only one too busy working to notice such things? Does that kind of thing still go on? It's hilarious!

re: Alecto
Stossel has spoken out against government subsidies before, so he's being consistent.

As for whether companies hire "American" workers, that isn't the government's business. Obviously, a country has a right to decide the parameters of entry, but the purpose of immigration law isn't to have the government "protect" an arbitrary standard of living for workers, whether "American" or otherwise.

Immigration isn't what imposes costs, it is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state incentives, and then let whoever wants to come here and work do so. If people are working, paying taxes, and playing by the rules, they are no threat to me.

Let's get real
I don't have the space and I am not in the mood
to address every sentence you wrote, but I would
like to mention a few things.

Try finding a job when you are 60+. You will
be able to get one at Wal-Mart, other stores that stay open all night long, and most fast food places. You will also get no perks and minimum wage.

Second, the reality is that if you a working in
a small business (a very small business) the
boss simply doesn't fire someone who is in
his sixties because proximity makes them
appreciate what a person goes through and will
go through. Only bastards fire someone in their sixties for something less than a crime.

Third CEO's of big corporations are getting
paid humongous bucks so they should be talented
enough to know how to re-inspire or re-tool
some long time employees so that they can keep
them. But oh, wait. It is the expensive
ones they want to get rid of so that they can
grant themselves a bigger salary.


brainoncapitalist
""No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty, or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as 'the right to enslave."

*****

Are you sure that you meant to slip that quote
in to promote your capitalist ideas. Minimum
wage (among other things) came about because
rampant capitalists decided that the value of
the worker making him rich could be bargained
away down to virtually nothing. I call that
slave labor. Wouldn't you?

Doc Liberty
In my position if one did as you suggest, one would be sent to prison and therefore would have no more worries about who would look after one for the rest of one's natural life.

If you are older than 21 and have held a full time job of any kind, you know this for a fact. Don't be stupid if you can help it.

Actually in our profession we did have mandatory retirement (hah -- we would be fired!) at age 65; I signed that form when I started this job. Seems the firm has discovered that they can't hire anybody to replace us nearing-retirement secretaries, as the current crop are into Work Life Balance and refuse to work before 9:00 a.m. or after 5:00 p.m. or on weekends or holidays, all of which may be required when Mr. Justice Jones decrees on Friday that the argument you planned to present on Thursday will now be heard the day after Labour Day...or when your attorney is at trial and you are on duty or on call 24/7 until they tell you otherwise. So that particular regulation is fading away into the twilight where it belongs. I agree that a firm should be entitled to hire anybody it wants to hire for whatever reason it wants to hire them. But it should also ascertain if a "bubbly" just-married twenty-something with no experience, who works cheap but who is looking forward to that year off with pay she gets when she gets pregnant, is such a good bargain after all.

Slave Labor
The capitalist owns a mine or a railroad. He has 90 jobs available. He has 900 applicants for those jobs. He awards those 90 jobs to the men who will take the lowest pay. They accept the pay to get the job. When they demand more pay for essentially the same work, he replaces them with new men who will accept the lower pay. How is that slave labor?

Another effect of labor laws
My wife and I retired well. We started a small company in a hobby we liked. As usual, we threw ourselves into it and soon the company had 23 employees. We had offers of capital infusion and the opportunity to grow. We won regional awards and were featured in regional and national magazines for our work.

But when we saw that Family Leave Act and many others began coverage at 25 employees, we said NO WAY!! So although we could hire many other people, and purchase much more equipment and give jobs to those making it, we are NOT GOING TO DO IT for the same reason the mechanic in germany will not hire another mechanic. It just isn't worth the hassle given the labor laws.

And if the government lowers the coverage to 10 employees, we will reduce ours to nine. If the government covers all workers no matter what, we will close the company and continue in retirement just fine thank you very much.

What people in this country had better understand is that those of us with the where with all to hire you also have the where with all to sit on out butts and watch you starve if your government makes it difficult for us to hire or fire you for any reason at all. This is MY MONEY and MY COMPANY and if I can't run it like I want to, then I won't run it at all. I can do without it just fine. The question is, can you?

Old guy
I totally agree with Stossel in my mind but as a 52 year old in the IT, field going back out there job hunting is not a thing to look forward to.

If my co. wants to get rid of me all they have to do is offer me the $100,000 they have set aside and I will voluntarily leave. If the Execs get golden parachutes so should the worker bees with years invested.

I am DISGUSTED.
I am a conservative, a moderate one to be sure,
but a conservative. In all likelihood I will
be voting for the Democrats this year, not because I don't like McCain but because I am
seriously disgusted with the Republican party
and what it is standing for these days.

Reading over so many of these posts makes me
realize just how disgusted I am. First of all,
a common theme on Town Hall has been that liberals are greedy, selfish, the richest group, the laziest group, and completely un-
Christian. They are socialists, and when that phrase quit scaring, they have become communists. And presumably when it was pointed out that the earliest Christians were communists, they are now Marxists.

Let's talk about Un-Christian. I think that,
wisely, no one here claimed to be taking the
Christian stance when it comes to business
ownership and what the workers can do about it
and where they can go if they don't like what
the boss is doing.

Why is it that Judeo/Christian values are
only important when they involve the other guy?

Whatever is allowed or not allowed in business, the idea that an employer can treat his employees in any way that he sees fit is completely offensive. COMPLETELY OFFENSIVE. I am sorrowful that laws are needed to protect the underdog, but they, without a shadow of a doubt, are. This is not an American thing.
It is a humankind thing. The powerful need to be controlled just as surely as the rest of us do. The powerful will surely expect protection when there is rioting in the
streets. Let's call this preventative medicine, if nothing else.

If we do not have a government that values all of its citizens, then we do not
have a government to be proud of.




I am DISGUSTED.
I am a conservative, a moderate one to be sure,
but a conservative. In all likelihood I will
be voting for the Democrats this year, not because I don't like McCain but because I am
seriously disgusted with the Republican party
and what it is standing for these days.

Reading over so many of these posts makes me
realize just how disgusted I am. First of all,
a common theme on Town Hall has been that liberals are greedy, selfish, the richest group, the laziest group, and completely un-
Christian. They are socialists, and when that phrase quit scaring, they have become communists. And presumably when it was pointed out that the earliest Christians were communists, they are now Marxists.

Let's talk about Un-Christian. I think that,
wisely, no one here claimed to be taking the
Christian stance when it comes to business
ownership and what the workers can do about it
and where they can go if they don't like what
the boss is doing.

Why is it that Judeo/Christian values are
only important when they involve the other guy?

Whatever is allowed or not allowed in business, the idea that an employer can treat his employees in any way that he sees fit is completely offensive. COMPLETELY OFFENSIVE. I am sorrowful that laws are needed to protect the underdog, but they, without a shadow of a doubt, are. This is not an American thing.
It is a humankind thing. The powerful need to be controlled just as surely as the rest of us do. The powerful will surely expect protection when there is rioting in the
streets. Let's call this preventative medicine, if nothing else.

If we do not have a government that values all of its citizens, then we do not
have a government to be proud of.




What's next, fat people?
My mother was the executive assistant for the head of a major sporting goods company. He once interviewed a great girl for the reception position and told her he couldn't hire her because she was too fat. My mom about died.

This was back in the late 80's. Had it happened now, he would surely have been sued. As bad as it sounds though, he had a point. He told my mom that because the business was all about sports and fitness, it was a bad image for the first person a visitor saw to be fat. True - though he should have made up a better reason for not hiring her.

I also remember a story a while back complaining about unfair hiring practices for Abercrombie and Fitch because they were only hiring attractive people to work in the stores.

John is right on the money. Agree or disagree with the morality and humanity of some decisions, if you own a business, you should be able to hire and fire whoever you want.

Good Article
Read many (not all) the comments and have yet to read the credo of "risk-reward".

You Get What You Settle For
Wess: Are you suggesting that you were not fairly compensated for the work you did, but stayed put expecting a huge bonus upon retirement? If you weren't getting what you think you were worth and could have gotten a better deal somewhere else, why did you stay?

Dutch: Why does a businessman have some kind of moral obligation to treat his employees according to Judeo-Christian values. Isn't a businessman's job to maximize profits? If his employees can get a better offer elsewhere they should take it. And if there are better offers out there, he should reconsider his offer lest he go out of business for lack of competent employees.

Since the end of the civil war, no one in the USA has been obliged to work for someone they didn't want to (except during wartime conditions under the draft). Your job is only worth what the most marginally qualified person will take for it. As Black Prince described above, it's his money and his business. If the cost of doing business exceeds the desired return, he'll close the business and then no one previously employed by him will have a job. Where's the morality in losing money on a losing proposition?

What happened to the idea of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay? If you work for less than you're worth, you're a fool; if your employer pays you more than your worth, he's a fool.

Dutch
What year are you living in Dutch? With OSHA, EEOC, Unions, labor laws etc (unless you are an illegal alien) you won't be forced into working in those conditions that existed 50 years ago. Wake up and get with the program.

Those companies operating like that will be the focus of some expose on CNN and be shamed into changing their practices, or shame out of business by public boycotts of their products.

The days of working 16 hour shifts in a smoke-ridden factory for $2/day are over. It is not a perfect system, but if a person is concerned about the dead end minimum wage job, then he ought to prepare himself for a better job by studying in school, having a solid work ethic and positive attitude and should take full responsibility for himself.

In most cases, it's the people that choose not to take advantage of the oppurtunity in this country and choose to make poor decisions that will end up in unfortunate situations and sad as it may be, it's not my fault.

Black Prince
There are several things about your post that
are somewhat disturbing, starting with ATTITUDE.

But I will ask a couple of questions. First of
all, are you sure that the maternity leave
thing applied to your situation - first legally
and second realistically.

I know that it is a part of the government
worker mandates and I believe some states have
their own laws about it. In reality, while
women do take the time off, if they can afford
to do so, not that many men do. In fact,
my son-in-law, who works at a university that
employs around 300 people in his section, he
says that it almost never happens. I know that
he did not take any himself, beyond what he
used from his vacation time. It is an unpaid
situation and he needed the money. When new
babies arrive nearly everyone is super-money
conscious.

But my goodness don't let anyone impose any
restrictions on you. So quit. We will probably all get along anyway in spite of the
big loss or your extraordinary contributions.

I'll bet the retirement home will find you a
lot of fun to be with.

Jeff
"The days of working 16 hour shifts in a smoke-ridden factory for $2/day are over. "

*****

Dah. Yes. They are over thanks to the gov't.
Not because of the willingness of the employers, or CNN for that matter.

***
"it's not my fault."

***

No, it never is.

And people whose lot is less
fortunate than yours is always because of the
decisions they have made along the way, starting with their choice of parents, choice of country, choice of genes, choice of opportunities available in non-adult years.

As I said in a previous post, a government
who does not value all of its citizens (and I
would add "Protect") is not a government to be
proud of.

I presume that when there is rioting
in the streets, you will assume that the rich
guys should not expect the cops to come in and
protect them.



.
"Whatever is allowed or not allowed in business, the idea that an employer can treat his employees in any way that he sees fit is completely offensive."

If I no longer wish to be friends with a person, I should be able to not associate with him anymore. Why should the fact that I am paying him for a task be any different? If that person thinks I'm wrong then he can start his own company and outperform me.

You are all full of it
Amazing how many pre-1929 country club/corporate Republicans are on this post. If you people had your way there also would be no such things as unemployment compensation (encourages slaggards, doesn't it?), worker's compensation laws (bad for business - and its the employee's fault for being careless), OSHA llaws, etc. Hey, why not come out with what you corpoate fascists REALLY would like - a return to the legal concept of bond servitude. Those would be the ideal workers for you - you could even beat them when the mood struck you. Pro-employee laws are needed to prevent reactionaries like you from taking control. So, go back to your fanatasies of a return to the 18th century - cause the real world - and the electorate - is not going to accomodate you powdered wig Aristo-wannabes.

Dutch
Uhh, it is not the responsibility of the gov't. to pick sides in a private matter like the relationship between an employer and employee. You may be a Republican by registration but you sound like a supporter of FDR. It also sounds as though you have never risked your livelihood in your own enterprise. There is nothing wrong with working for a company and never going it alone but one cannot expect anything more than a paycheck. If a company finds that an employee can no longer perform, then they have the right and the duty to terminate that employee. If the employee gets a better offer at a different company, would you fault them for taking it? No? Well, it is the flip side of the coin that you have described. cheers

DUTCH
A correction is in order. Your posts indicate that you are NOT a conservative. You are a liberal with a typical liberal attitude.

I'll bet that you have voted Democrap your entire life.

The Dutch & the Black Prince
Black Prince is right. Years ago, I held a summer job at a textile mill in Avondale Estates, GA. The owner was a man who wouldn't be blackmailed. He was on record as saying "if the union comes in, I'll shut the place down, I don't need the money." They never went union, and he paid his employees well enough for it not to become an issue (It's amazing how productivity increases when there are no "work rules" to contend with).

As an employer, I will hire/fire based on any doggone parameter I want, and it's nobody's business what those parameters are. End of story. If I determine that the risk of legal action impacts my potential ROI in a given situation, I will simply decide not to hire.

The lawmakers who claim to be "for the working man" don't have an understanding of the basic principles of economics (spend some time on http://www.mises.org to learn the truth).

And for Dutch: it is a complete fallacy that the early Christians were communists. Aside from a myriad other examples, I would point out that "if a man does not work, he should not eat" does not comport with "...to each according to his need."

Further, you said:
"...Whatever is allowed or not allowed in business, the idea that an employer can treat his employees in any way that he sees fit is completely offensive. COMPLETELY OFFENSIVE."

This displays your own lack of understanding about the principles of economics (see the link to mises, above, for further education on the matter). If the worker feels he's being given the short end, he can quit and go work for another company. If he's truly being underpaid & overworked, he should have no difficulty working for a competitor.

Dutch
Ahhh, the old "I've been a lifelong conservative" routine.

"Conservatives for Obama" is like "Dead babies for Abortion."

Minimum Wage
Before we get someone starting in about the marvels of the modern state and the minimum wage...It must be pointed out that the minimum wage was a post-war (war for Southern Independence) invention of northern states designed to keep blacks from competing for jobs held by white people.

Wolfgang
No, what is amazing is the number of 1930s era liberal communists on here.

Every federal agency and law that you mentioned is clearly unconsititutional and should be repealed.

Dutch says:
"Are you sure that you meant to slip that quote
in to promote your capitalist ideas. Minimum
wage (among other things) came about because
rampant capitalists decided that the value of
the worker making him rich could be bargained
away down to virtually nothing. I call that
slave labor. Wouldn't you?"

First of all, so-called capitalists who are in bed with the government aren't capitalists, they are fascists. Second of all, as long as there is no force or deception, if a person willingly enters into a working relationship with an employer for any price, no matter how low, it is not slavery. It is a free exchange. In fact, if you look at it honestly, the employer values the time of the employee more than the employee does. This is self-evidently so. If the employee is willing to trade an hour of his time for, say, $10, he values that hour less than the $10 or he would not enter into the exchange. On the other hand, if the employer is willing to give the employee $10 for an hour of his time, he values that hour MORE than the $10 or he would not enter into the exchange. So, if an employee is not happy with the compensation he is receiving, the real problem is not with the employer, it is with the employee. The employee should take responsibility for his own values and preferences and stop acting like a victim.

Early Lesson in Economics
In high school I worked in a gas station back when an attendant actually pumped your gas, checked under your hood, and so forth. If memory serves, the job paid minimum wage or perhaps a few cents more. One of my coworkers threatened to quit if the owner didn't give him a raise. On his next paycheck there was no increase, so the day after getting his paycheck the coworker did not come in. He didn't call in sick, he just didn't show.

The following day when the coworker got to work there was a new employee doing his job. The owner explained to him when he asked why he lost his job (and implicitly how it was filled so quickly) that he had a drawer full of job applications: a couple of phone calls made after the guy failed to show or call and the job was filled. At minimum wage.

I realized then that as long as there was a greater supply of people willing to do my job (labor) at minimum wage than job openings (demand for labor), I'd have to either improve my value to the owner to get a raise or be content with what I was getting. As I learned to do tune ups and brake jobs and other minor repairs my pay went up. Since then I have always known that my job was only worth what the lowest bidder would do it for.

Galltegfa, BrainonCapitalist,
It is amazing that the socialist/communists posting here have no clue as to the relationship between motivation and reward in economics.

If the minimum wage is supposed to be a good thing, why is it not $100/hr? Then, we could all be "rich". When you figure out why $100/hr won't work, you be on your way to knowing why $5.35, $7.15, or even $1.35/hr doesn't work!

Galltegfa's Excellent Point!
"Since then I have always known that my job was only worth what the lowest bidder would do it for."

This is one of the best summations of the price system that I've heard in recent years.

I wonder how many socialists are familiar with Ebay? The Google Adwords system? These are examples of the free market at work. We all want to get the most value for our money. Is labor any different?

If you are selling a commodity, be it rice, frozen orange juice, or light sweet crude (oil), you will get the current market price. Just like you will if you sell your labor by the hour.

If you want to increase the value of a commodity, you've got to add value, differentiate and "de-commoditize" it...In the labor market, this is called an education (say it with me now, Ed-U-Kay-Shun, does it ring a bell?). It is for this reason that professionals make more money than people who merely trade hours for dollars. People who opt for child bearing instead of education typically consign themselves to a lifetime of wages.

Another feature of commodity industries is their capital intensity. It takes lots of money to house, transport and secure grain. And the margins are pretty thin. In labor terms, this should be obvious. My father once told me, "Ron son, you can work with your back, or you can work with your mind, it's up to you. But I'm here to tell you that working with your back is a hard life." In case you can't tell, I grew up in a lower, middle-class blue collar family. My father (only one generation removed from Southern tenant farmers) worked as a bus driver for MARTA. He would have been disappointed if I had followed in his footsteps. And don't talk to me about "opportunity" either, if it's important to you, you'll find a way.

Rich Not Wealthy
If I were King no one would leave the 8th grade without passing a year of economics. I took it my sophomore year of college, and did quite well, but much of what it taught I'd already discovered by holding down several jobs along the way.

brainoncapitalist --
"... if the employer is willing to give the employee $10 for an hour of his time, he values that hour MORE than the $10 or he would not enter into the exchange."

I thought you were going to mention the fact that an employer has to pay overhead, benefits, taxes, etc. on top of the employee's wage.

As I recall from working for a large government contractor, the typical rate was 2.5. So an employee making $10/hour actually cost the company $25/hour.

In these days of having a risk of unfair termination lawsuit, it's probably more effectively.

In these days of having a forced maternity leave for both mother AND father, it's probably more.

Finally, in these days of escalating health costs, the benefits are probably more expensive.

So, what you probably mean to say is, if an employer is willing to pay an employee $10 per hour for labor, he probably values that labor at MORE than $30 or $40 per hour.

(At the company where I work now, we had a father take the maternity leave. So we held the job open for him for whatever weeks. He used that opportunity to find a better job elsewhere. Can we sue him? Probably not!)

do they still teach econ in HS?
Do I want to know the answer? I'm 40 years old, and my oldest child (4) just started his first day of pre-K yesterday.

Like any father, I want him to do better than me, so I'll be looking for a school with a rigorous academic curriculum. Latin, History, Debate, Mathematics, and a very solid grounding in the Austrial school of economics (mises.org).

Needless to say, my local government indoctrination center does not offer this, we're shopping for a private school. My wife & I have decided that school for the kids is more important than new cars.

61?
John Stossel is 61?!

Ron Jones, "Pre-K"!! Don't let them
start the indoctrination so soon! Get him out of there fast and school him at home unless your local government has become fascist and mandated Pre-K. The only reason for the push to Pre-K is to start the indoctrination as soon as possible and prevent actuall thinking and learning, except the party line!

Galltegfa, I learned economics proper from reading Dr. Sowell, but I learned a long time ago that anyone's job security existed in their ability to produce, unless you are a teacher.

"Pre-K"!! Don't let them
Fortunately Tennessee is one of the "medium" restrictive states when it comes to education.

NOOO...we didn't send him to a taxpayer funded public school. Instead, we chose a local United Methodist church that uses the Abeka curriculum (which I got when I went to school).

While I may differ doctrinally with the UMC, it's still a far cry from public school. My parents didn't do it to me, so I'm not going to do it to my kids. lol.

Unca Alby
Yeah, I realize that my example was a little simplistic, but the principle is sound. I wanted to make it a simple as possible so that the socialists who value feelings over thinking would have a better chance at understanding it.

Re: Wolfgang
Hate to point this out to you but every one of the agencies and programs you listed are violations of our Constitution and should be immediately struck down. Since that's not going to happen the fact that there is an OSHA who's rules frequently directly contradict the local authorities you have companies and individuals doing silly stuff like painting fire hydrants blue for the local inspection then painting them red for the OSHA inspection. Or one of my personal favorites at a meat packing plant the local health department instructed the company to remove a railing on a stair case that the beef might (hadn't as of the time of the order) touch. So the company removed the railing and was fined 20,000 bucks by OSHA for not having the railing up. This is the normal part of doing business and the hilarious part is that the company didn't pay that 20,000 it was the company's customers.

Must Be a Tennessee Thing
Ron: My great grandfather (also a Jones) was a bricklayer who left Huntsville, Alabama for Memphis in the early 1900s. He busted his hump so he could send his kids to college. Five boys. But before he'd send them off to college, each of the boys had to be able to double the union quota for brick laying, just to see what awaited them should they fail in their studies. They all did quite well, particularly the ones who went into business for themselves. Nothing like a glimpse of a future filled with hard work to sharpen the mind.

Semper Libertas - 11:01am Post
You wrote

"Immigration isn't what imposes costs, it is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state incentives, and then let whoever wants to come here and work do so. If people are working, paying taxes, and playing by the rules, they are no threat to me."

The exploding population that comes with countries in extreme poverty closely bordering a rich and prosperous nation necessitates basic infrastructure improvements like roads, water and sewage treatment, police, teachers and building the schools to educate their children. Poor immigrants never pay enough in taxes to close the gap of infrastructure improvements which means all of our taxes go up or we run deficits.

Your assertion is false - but I notice Libertarians have drunk the koolaid of open borders proposed by Cato and others without thinking it through. Unlimited, unfettered immigration IS a threat to our way of life and our standard of living because we simply cannot absorb or assimilate that many people, nor do I want to look like Mumbai or Sao Paolo, or most Mexican cities.

Stossel
Awesome sir. A spark of brilliance that can not be denied. I have officially included you on my list of people I would love to have a beer with.

Gang of 10 Heroes
1. The "gang of 10" bill unilaterally opens up drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, with no state veto. The GOP bill didn't do that, because Mel Martinez and Charlie Crist didn't want it. Non-Gulf states Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas can opt-in if they like; the old GOP bill was opt-in everywhere, allowing Florida to block drilling in the Gulf off of its shores.

2. The bill also allows for seismic exploration along the entire continental shelf.

3. The ban on drilling within 50 miles of the coast was also in the GOP bill.

4. Contrary to many commentators' claims, the "gang of ten" bill is not a lifeline for Obama: "What a bunch of C-R-A-P. " (Yes, he spelled it out like that) "If Obama embraced this, he would be the biggest flipflopper ever." A lot of the opposition to the bill is really a case of trying to keep drilling as an election issue instead of getting more drilling.

5. The bill includes a Zubrin-like flex-fuel provision, requiring that 75% of cars by 2015 and 85% by 2020 be capable of running on something besides gasoline.

6. "Our bill also opens up coal-to-liquids. We couldn't have gotten 44 Republicans for that."

7. The bill is "incredibly aggressive" on nuclear power, including accelerated-depreciation provisions like those for solar and wind power, more NRC resources to speed licensing, and an end to the Carter-era ban on nuclear fuel reprocessing. "We couldn't have gotten 44 Republicans on this."

8. The bill also promotes cellulosic ethanol.

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/archives2/022864.ph p

Galltegfa
Well, you did a great job of skirting around the
point that I was making. And that is, who are
we as people and as a nation.

But to answer your parting question with a
question: "What happened to the idea of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay?" What happened to the idea of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work? Why is the question always asked in a way that supposes the worker is the bad guy and the employee the good guy?

I am going to tell you something that is one of
my main maxim's in life. Wish I could say that
I always live up to it, but I do try.

As a parent, it is first my responsibility to
be a good parent. It is not first my chilren's
responsibility to be obedient children. If
I am the good parent, the good child will most
likely follow. See if you can connect some
dots here.

I would also like to say that if you cannot
find morality in the Judeo/Christian ethic,
then you aren't looking for morality. And in
your instance I have to believe it isn't
your primary motivation in life. I would say
that it is power and/or money. I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that profit
is not a necessity for a business. What some
of us are suggesting is that it is not the
be all and end all. For those who have, they
must SHARE in whatever way they can (and I am
not talking just money here), or we will not
have a world that anyone wants to live in.



Dutch
"For those who have, they must SHARE in whatever way they can (and I am not talking just money here), or we will not have a world that anyone wants to live in."

Jesus says to give to the poor.

Where does he say to use the government to give to the poor using your neighbor's money?

There's nothing wrong with keeping to a Judeo/Christian ethic. There's nothing wrong with keeping to a Buddhist ethic. The only problem is forcing all the tenets of that teaching on to others by use of the police power of the government.

We don't have Sharia Law here. We don't force religious teachings. We have, mostly, Liberty.

What a ruckus.
CVN65: "Uhh, it is not the responsibility of the gov't. to pick sides in a private matter like the relationship between an employer and employee"

***
It is the responsibility of the government (I
would hope) to protect its citizens, whether
it be from foreign interference or from those who wish to abuse their power or cause general
mayhem within our borders.

I have also noticed the propensity of Town Hallers to tell others what those others
believe. You say that I am not a Conservative. as does Vic. I am sure that you will also tell me at some point that I am not a Christian (that is a big one around here). It is one of the many reasons why, until I got laid up, I did not bother to post on this website. Now that I have ample time, I decided to go at it. I would also suggest that the government is the people, not an entity unto itself and that this is the wishes of most of the people within our borders.

The reason why I call myself a Conservative is
because I am conservative in practice and in
most areas of philosophy. I don't spend what
I don't have, I try to treat people fairly
and with the belief that each individual is
truly a child of God, that our Government
should represent the religious/moral/ethical
side of life. I have been noticing of late
that this does not seem to define the
Conservatives of the day, but when I was making
my initial choices, it did or at least I believed that it did.
***
Vic: Democrap has been used so many times
before. Can't you come up with something clever?
****
Brainon: "willingly enters into a working relationship with an employer for any price, no matter how low, it is not slavery." define
"willingly." Then define the person who hires
at slave wages. If he CAN'T pay a living wage
to an employee, he doesn't have a viable
business. If he can, but doesn't he is a creep
at best.


Unca Alby and Ron
Unca Alby: my heart bleeds for you.

Ron: "it is a complete fallacy that the early
Christians were communists"

Read Acts 4 and 5.

"it is a complete fallacy that the early Christians were communists." Read
Acts 4 and 5.

"As an employer, I will hire/fire based on any doggone parameter I want, and it's nobody's business what those parameters are. End of story."

Obviously, you are not an employer.

To the both of you, stuff a codpiece in your
pants and find you manliness that way. It will
save the rest of the world from a lot of
grief.

Semper and Alecto
We don't have a welfare state. We have a war
that no one wants and no one seems to be willing
to pay for. That is what is causing our dire
straits.

And that is why I am just about the only
conservative left on this site. I believe in
paying my bills, and not leaving them for
someone else to pay.

Question
Name the businesses that discriminated against its employees and went out of business due to the free market?

Reply to Alecto
Alecto wrote, "I don't know about you, but I've had to sign a Confidentiality Agreement and Non-compete Agreement every single job I've had."

Which is why I began, "Learn every company secret that you can, and sign nothing that you're not absolutely forced to." If you're forced to sign CAs & NCAs to take the job, then of course keep your word.

"Your second recommendation is funny. Am I the only one too busy working to notice such things? Does that kind of thing still go on? It's hilarious!"

On the first question, I don't know, but I'd be careful; an injury patting yourself on the back like that can sideline you for a long time. On the second question, yes.

Willingly
I defined willingly in my post. It means without deception or force. So someone who takes a job for any wage, no matter how low, who is not being forced to do so, is willingly accepting that wage and it is their responsibility and their's alone.

And to forestall any arguments that if the person 'needs' the job, then they are basically 'forced' to take it, doesn't hold water. Who is responsible for your life? You. You can choose to create a job for yourself instead of accepting a job that doesn't pay what you think you're worth.

Reply to AudiR10
"In my position if one did as you suggest, one would be sent to prison and therefore would have no more worries about who would look after one for the rest of one's natural life."

You must work for your government (I started to write Uncle Sam, but the rest of your post seems to indicate Canada). And if you work for the government, of course you'll have to sign secrecy oaths. That's why I wrote, "Learn every company secret that you can, and sign nothing that you're not absolutely forced to" Once you sign something, of course keep your word.

As to verbal agreements -- well, in employee/employer relationships, Sam Goldwyn was right: they're not worth the paper they're written on. (Which is why governments don't rely on verbal agreements.)

"If you are older than 21 and have held a full time job of any kind, you know this for a fact. Don't be stupid if you can help it."

Sorry, but I said a lot of things, and this is just too vague to figure out. Mind explaining?

Joe
LOL, are all the “customers” serviced by the new Nuclear Sites going to get a direct income tax credit equal to 30% of the cost of the nuclear plant “just like solar and wind”?

Galltegfa, Ron Jones and others
What a treat it is to see so many, economic literate folks, who are also well versed on property rights, in one place.

Mr. Jones, you were raised in a similar setting to my own. The fact that you not only educated yourself about Austrian economics, (mises.org) the constitution and states rights, but want to educate your children in the same subject matter... well, you are a man after my own heart. Kudos to you my friend!

A question off topic: While I have read Townhall, daily, for years now, I am not a consistent poster.

My problem is; whenever I try to login, I have to go to my email archive, and retrieve the password by copy and paste method. Every time I type in my password, I get a notice saying my username/password does not match. Same thing happens when I copy/paste, or drag the password from openoffice. I am currently using Windows XP, and my browser is Mozilla.

Any suggestions from 'oltimers, here at TH?

Regards,
Dempsey

Dempsy
Windows XP has a lot of issues with the way it treats cookies. I had a lot of problems with my password and finally had to erase my hard drive and reload windows to get it straight. In the meantime you can try getting the TH program to "change" your password by telling them you forgot it. Once they reset the password you can copy and paste it to sign in, then go back and change it yourself making sure of the position of the caps key and other factors in the password.

Easy Solution
We just need to require that these stupid labor laws about no discrimination based on age or appearance also applies to Hollywood which rakes in big bucks by discriminating. If you look at where the real discrimination still happens, it occurs in the government itself or in areas where the government enforces a monolopy or hampers free market competition. The biggest hypocrisy is when liberal Universities employ the equivalent of slave labor. Look at how much money they rake in from NCAA football without paying the students any wages.

Whose Rights Are They . . . Anyway
Well said. What you describe is but one more example of the constantly misinterpreted Rights of A U.S. Citizen under the Constitution.

We are guaranteed the right to equal access to all that is required TO COMPETE under the Constitution. We have never been guaranteed EQUAL OUTCOMES.

This one element is used by the unscrupulous to promote their agendas to the uninformed on a minute-by-minute basis.

Keep spreading the word . . .although in truth I suspect it is already too late and that the U.S. is way over the hump of our cultural cycle and heading DOWN.

With a little luck I'll be able to keep working and supporting myself until it's time to push up grass. Hope its a long while yet.

Best regards and Thanks,

Chuck

Fallacy
Americans think they "own" a job just like they think they "own" people when they get married.

The only security EVER is that which lives within you that you are able to take care of self no matter what.

Extortion of jobs, marriage, friends, etc. is inherently ANTI-AMERICAN since it creates lack of freedom and imposes choice without consent.

ron white
"It must be pointed out that the minimum wage was a post-war (war for Southern Independence) invention of northern states designed to keep blacks from competing for jobs held by white people."


Since the minimum wage began in 1938, they were
awfully slow on the draw.

Enjoy early retirement
Hey, John, you're getting less handsome and far less charming. I hope you have a nice 401K (which I suspect you do). They will find a reason to get rid of you when you look old enough. Lot's of folks don't want to look at old people on their tv's. Happy early retirement John. It's coming sooner than you think!

Dutch Post @ 5:52pm
Hi Dutch, sorry but I must disagree. We do have a massive welfare state and open borders which for followers of Milton Freidman is a huge no-no. Yes, wars are costly, but sometimes necessary and I support our war effort in Afghanistan and Iraq. What I don't support is open borders and a welfare state.

The Bible also says
to clear your accounts at the end of every day. Who does?

I wonder if Dutch demands his pay at the end of the day.

Labor Laws
If anyone needs a prime example of how labor laws and unions can totally destroy businesses one only need look at the auto industry of Michigan. Black Prince I wish I could make posters of your post and plaster this city with them! Two weeks ago I was at a meeting of a motorcycle rights group I belong to, and we had several candidates who were running for office speak. Needless to say the question/answer session was dominated by whining, complaining union members who wanted to know what these candidates were going to do (if elected) to help them keep "their" jobs. It was kind of sad that not one of the candidates told these men to take advantage of the numerous Michigan programs that retrain workers. See, here in Michigan we have the "No Worker Left Behind" which will pay for two years of college to ANYONE who is either unemployed, or makes less than $40,000 per year! And these guys are still complaining cause gosh darnit those evil execs in the auto industry keep laying them off! Not one single one of these guys will admit the union prevents their employer from firing drunks, drug addicts and the like who stumble into work, IF they stumble into work. And these very same men (sorry fellas but it was all men doing the complaining at this meeting) are the same ones who will give you grief for not "buying American". So, now, not only is the employer prevented from firing the drunks and drug addicts off the line, we, the consumers are chastised because we choose to buy a better-made product! On the minimum wage front, here in Michigan when our state government forced an increase in the minimum wage, my own daughter lost her job because her employer could not afford to raise the pay of all his workers. Labor laws are nothing more than job protectionism, and in quite a few cases they only protect inferior workers from getting the boot they deserve.

Steve
As John Milton said in The Devil's Advocate:

"Free will it is a b__tch"


Great Article
John Stossel is a master at shoveling the feces that socialists throw at everyone under the guise of worker's rights. Property rights and an owner's right to due with his resources as he sees fit must rule supreme in a free market. The alternative is a hard socialism bordering on the marxist. Keep up the fight John!!

Overbearing Government yet again
Once again John, you present a logical, coherent argument that takes an issue most people wouldn't argue over and puts it into a new perspective. It seems counter-intuitive at first to think that labor laws protecting workers from discrimination would cause harm, but from the viewpoint of running a business it makes sense. Our culture today looks down upon racist and discriminatory businesses, hence they don't do well. No government need apply, but the law has a nasty way of leading to unintended consequences. When will government ever learn that less is more?

Overbearing Government yet again
Once again John, you present a logical, coherent argument that takes an issue most people wouldn't argue over and puts it into a new perspective. It seems counter-intuitive at first to think that labor laws protecting workers from discrimination would cause harm, but from the viewpoint of running a business it makes sense. Our culture today looks down upon racist and discriminatory businesses, hence they don't do well. No government need apply, but the law has a nasty way of leading to unintended consequences. When will government ever learn that less is more?

Two way street...
For those of you who think he Employer Owes his employees a job for life, I would urge you to turn this around, and ask yourself if you feel equally strongly that the Employee Owes the Employer work for Life?

If you want the government to enforce employee rights, then the government will also end up enforcing Employer rights, eventually, and I don't think you will like that anymore than employers like the current system.

I prefer to be able to choose which employer I work for, and when I will switch jobs, and NOT have government intervening in those decisions.

It should come as no surprise that Employers feel the same way, and rail against the Fed telling them who to hire, and how much they must pay them. Right to work laws are the only way to have fair treatment of workers, and employers.

You boys from Il all seem to think that every employer is GM, with thousands of employees, but the truth is most employers are tiny, with 30 employees or less. If they get one or two employees who aren't performing well, and can't fire them, it really hurts their bottom line, and that affects all 30 of the employees who have to pick up the slack for the few worthless ones, and who also are denied wage increases, because there's no money left to pay them any more.

Be aware, there really are consequences to these laws that force employers to keep on deadbeats.

Actually, Steve Post#8
is the coward. He's afraid someday he will be the one who gets discarded, so he wants (enforced) permanent employment to assuage his fears. I wonder if he's pro-abortion? I'd like to know whether he really cares about the weak or just about himself.

Fed'ral Labor Laws are Unconsitutional
when applied within the States. The 9th and 10th Ammendments make this clear. Only in U.S. Territories, like D.C., do such laws have Consitutional teeth.

It's ironic that one of the largest classes of potential victims to whom these laws should apply are the staffers of the U.S. Congressmen who write them.

Given what you see on C-span, you have to conclude that all sorts of age- and appearance-discrimination goes on in the hiring and firing of Congressional staffers. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Great Article
John Stossel is correct the free market is the best way to reward good businesses and punish bad ones. Who would want to work for a company that fired its best workers no matter what their ages are?

The opposite is also true...
...my company seeks out older workers because they show up on time without a hangover and they don't have to be constantly supervised. They come to work well groomed and without a bunch of piercings and tatoos.
Older workers excel especially in situations where they have to meet and deal with customers. They work harder to keep higher levels of customer satisfaction and retention. Older workers work smarter not harder. They get more done in less time.

Generally speaking, of course. There are some variables.

Personally I'll compete with the young, empty-headed squirts any day and out perform them.

There are some great young folks, though. But their numbers are few and most are in [or have been in] the military. "Most" of the rest, however, have severe attitude problems/flaws. Very self serving and self centered. Zero common sense. Believe me, they're no competition. DD

Some very good points!
Another good article John. Hollywood is another big discriminator. I can't even watch them anymore. It's the same every time. "Ok there's the mandatory black guy, you know he can't get killed." There's the politician you know he's a lib and the good guy in the movie." Everyone swears. And all kids movies have to have the mandatory burp and fart scene. What is this junk?
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