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Wednesday, August 06, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Sky Isn't Falling
by John Stossel
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


In this column I often take a skeptical look at liberal scare-mongering about global warming and cancer threats from pesticides, Teflon frying pans, plastic bottles, cell phones, etc. The liberal scaremongers' solution is always: more government.

But conservatives scare people, too.

When I was growing up, most everyone agreed that it would be a terrible thing if young people were exposed to sex. It must be kept out of sight.

When an obviously pregnant Lucille Ball appeared on "I Love Lucy," it was a controversial television breakthrough. Yet the word "pregnant" was never uttered. Simply saying the word was taboo.

When I was 11, the innocent movie "Pillow Talk" was attacked because Rock Hudson and Doris Day argue about "bedroom problems". Reviews said, it "comes close to the forbidden border."

Today, parents would be relieved to find their kids watching "Pillow Talk." The PG movie "Hairspray" features a flasher and jokes about teen pregnancy. Sex is a regular storyline on "family" TV shows.

This is terrible for kids, says Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council.

"They are being exposed to sex and to talk about sex before they're even old enough to even think about having sex," he told me in my recent "20/20" special "Sex in America".

"Young people who watch a lot of sexual content on television have distorted attitudes about sexuality. That it must be that everybody's who's not married is going around having sex all the time and having kinky sex in all kinds of strange situations."

Complaints from groups like Sprigg's inspire politicians to make noises about "protecting" America by banning such sex from the public square, even if it means legislating some of our liberty away. Sen. Joe Lieberman promised action to stay "the rising tide of sex, violence and vulgarity," which he says "has coarsened our culture."

Our culture has become coarser. Young people swear loudly in public, have vulgar tattoos and wear jeans that keep getting lower. Advertising shoves sex in our faces.

In fact, today, sex is more pervasive than my parents ever imagined it could be.

Sprigg says it's a reason for problems like "the rise of sexually transmitted diseases [and] the increase in out-of-wedlock pregnancies and births."

But where is that increase in out-of-wedlock births, etc.? We were surprised to find that although STDs are up and the '60s sexual revolution brought an increase in teen pregnancy, over the past 10 to 15 years, the rape rate, the divorce rate and the percentage of teens having premarital sex have steadily declined.

I told Sprigg the good news.

"I'm not sure I accept the premise that negative effects aren't happening," he said.

Sometimes Sprigg's group reaches far to make a point. It issued a press release lamenting bad news from the Centers for Disease Control about an increase in out-of-wedlock teenage pregnancies.

But that increase was a one-year aberration from the 10-year trend. I told Sprigg his release was deceitful.

His answer was telling: "It has been going down, and the rate[s] of out-of-wedlock births and of teen births have been going down. But until they go down to zero, we have to keep trying to promote these positive values in our culture."

I assume many people reading this agree with Sprigg. After my TV special, I got hateful e-mail: "Stossel you are disgusting. ... " "[Your TV show] added fuel to the fire for the demise of our society."

But let's be realistic, says family therapist Dr. Marty Klein, author of "America's War on Sex". Sex isn't going away, and it's not poisoning our culture.

"The truth is, children think about sex whether we want them to or not. There are groups of people out there who are devoted to scaring the heck out of Americans. ... I think it makes some people feel good because they say, aha, there's the enemy, and if only we could do something about that, everything would be better."

The truth is, "doing something" means more government. And more government doesn't make life better. If government leaves us alone, we will survive crude sex in the public square.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Thank You, Man...
Recently, I've been reading a book about the comic-book wars of the 1950s. It's called "The Ten-Cent Plague" by David Hadju, and it chronicles the history of censoring comics throughout the last century, going as far back as the advent of the Sunday Funnies. Religious groups, parents groups, and even magazines like "Ladies' Home Journal" and, I'm not kidding, "The Nation" (Which I highly doubt it is as conservative as it used to be.)
Anyway, there is plenty of stuff in the book about how the Catholic Church in various cities led comic-book burnings and Congress held hearings that brought in, and ruined for life, comics publishers, writers, cartoonists, you name it. And it was a pretty huge industry that as single-handedly destroyed by people who have no ability to even produce a straight line, so they have to do the only thing they know how to do, which is destroying it.

It's really no surprise why there are so many atheists, agnostics and secularists nowadays then there was before. And it isn't so surprising that Christianity is attacked or smeared or mocked as it is now. When you try to purify a culture in your own image, all you end up doing is making others miserable, if not ruined for life. As long as these conservative types of fear-mongers exist to fight the so-called evils of free expression and free thought, the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a pipe dream rather than reality.

John
Love your off the beaten track viewpoints (sometimes the columnists here at TH are so obvious and pedestrian and so damned unchallenging....they tell you just what you'd expect them to....oh, look, ANOTHER Phyllis Schlafly and Mike Adams column denouncing feminism! What a shocker! And over here's Michael Medved berating Barack Obama for the 600th time....such intellectually challenging pieces!).

You saw Lucy pregnant on TV, and it didn't warp your mind. I'm from a younger generation, and I saw men kissing and interracial couples making out - and life went on as before.

I'm glad the government stays out of the TV censoring business (when government intrudes, we get a lot of fake outrage, as with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake). If people truly want a free market system, then get used to the sex. Sex sells. Walk into any Abercrombie and Fitch store. Look at Paris's Carl's Jr. commercial. Homoerotic images. Threesomes. It's called the free market, and the marketplace decided long ago that sex, especially slightly kinky sex, sex with a bit of an edge, sex you can taste and feel, SELLS.


At any rate. Nobody's more apt to become a pervert when all's said and done. A few evangelicals feign outrage and predict the coming Rapture (every generation has these nutballs), but sex is as real a part of the human experience as eating and sleeping and communicating with language. It'll all work itself out.

Good column John
Those facts sure are pesky things. Somehow, I doubt if Sprigg would be satisfied with zero. Conquering one alleged sin will always necessitate another. Why do liberals act so terrified of Sprigg and his type trying to ram his personal interpretation of scripture down everyone's throats but, can be so blase about millions of much more devout believers with the same goal following a much more primitive theology? Think Sprigg is harsh? Listen to an average moderate imam at an average moderate mosque. At least Sprigg will stand with us against them. Then we can marginalize his kind if we ever get to the point where people want liberty again.

The Reason there are less rapes
John,
The reason there are less rapes, abortions, teen pregnancy's is because there are less teens today. One of three were aborted. They are not here. So, no wonder there are less murders, abortions, rapes, etc.

I though you would figure that out John. You are very smart.

"liberal scaremongering"
Simple facts about how the sky is not falling but families units are more secure with gay marriage (marriages increase)? How about teen pregnancies rates go -down- when they receive a full comprehensive sex education?

Education and knowledge are conservatives enemy. Once people have them - the very items that conservatives crow about go away. Why are they so afraid of it?

Gimme a Break, Stossel
You are sounding like a preacher.
Sun has risen every day exactly like it has in the history of mankind.

The same sky was over every nation on earth that came to a bad end, and the sky did not fall then either.

The nations did fall, like ancient Israel, Rome, and countless others.
Anyone who thinks morals have nothing to do with how a society goes, is just dumb.


Get off the soap box, you young whippersnapper.

Having been born in 1943 I know the changes the acceptance of immorality into public speech and vision has changed America from a moral nation to a degenerate society that is now facing the idea same genders marry.

I like ya John, but you really are ignorant about the changes immorality brings.
It does not happen in a day or two, but a generation.

You are not even close to preaching a new morality, you are preaching the same old immorality that allowed a Hitler to rise in Nazi Germany.

This man Obama would never have got out of the gate to ever win a seat in Government before the 1950's.

Because you think you see, you are as blind as a bat.

Morality is directly connected to the path of a nation.
Up or down, same as it is for individuals.

Morality
Whose morality should we follow, yours?

You are too blind to see your way through a properly written post, and you want to lecture us about morality?

There is more morality in the little finger of my gay friend who just got married, than in your whole sorry being.

The limits of civil law
John,

You are right to doubt the ability of government to improve the sexual morality of the people. It is a challenge for the Church, why should we be surprised that the State can't do it? Also, each generation thinks that the slide is mainly happening in their own time. That is not obviously true when you step back and look at history.

Silly me
I thought this article was going to be about all the phony scares that liberals serve up on a cyclical basis. Y2K came and went and the sky did not fall. We were told that legal abortion would make "every child a wanted child." That obviously has not come about. In the 70s, we were told that the world population would outgrow our ability to feed it by the beginning of the 21st century. Well, here we are, and we're all obese. We were told to anticipate the upcoming ice age, woops, I mean the global warming that will burn us all alive. I've learned to take all of this hysteria with a grain of salt. Been there, feared that.

Instead we get an article telling us unlimited sex is OK. I am a teacher of 40 years and I cannot mask my annoyance with contemporary students who use the F word four times in every sentence. The "coarsening" of our culture is something that I genuinely fear. We are witnessing the dumbing down of civilization, and this is a far greater threat than the hyped-up issues cited in the paragraph above.

talent scout writes,

"Morality is directly connected to the path of a nation."

-----------------------

talent scout is the type of poster that screams that the Roman Empire was felled by loose lips and homosexual foreplay.



Posters, beware: Morality has absolutely nothing to do with the prosperity - and rise and fall - of a nation. It's all about sound economics. Talent Scout is blinded by the blinding light of Jesus. Talent Scout is bathed in the Blood of the Lamb.

Don't be fooled by his preaching. It's all about the economy, stupid.

Individual freedom
Most adults like sex - like to watch it, read it, do it. That's why the Internet is a popular place and women's literature/romance is a best selling genre. Sex has been popular since the beginning of human kind, any student of history can tell you so.

The government is far too intrusive into private lives as it is, do we really need more? If you don't want you children seeing or reading about sex, violence, drugs, etc., don't let them. Supervise what they see and hear. Talk to them from the very beginning about these issues so that when they're older and confronting them, they're easier to talk about. Use news stories as teaching tools. Then, hopefully, your kids will make the right decisions.

My children are teenagers and a young adult. The young adult is out on his own, but in our house, we don't watch programs like Sex in the City, Gossip Girls, or any of the others, they're garbage. My 16-year-old daughter still enjoys the Disney Channel, when she has time for TV, which isn't often.

Let the wisdom of a Founder speak
Forget will, he is a reporbate, can anyone imagine making a choice in who established this government as between will and Jefferson?

Ok, choose who you like, but for me, I will listen to men like Jefferson.
You can listen to the reprobate will if ya like.

"When [the moral sense] is wanting, we endeavor to supply the defect by education, by appeals to reason and calculation, by presenting to the being so unhappily conformed, other motives to do good and to eschew evil, such as the love, or the hatred, or the rejection of those among whom he lives, and whose society is necessary to his happiness and even existence; demonstrations by sound calculation that honesty promotes interest in the long run; the rewards and penalties established by the laws; and ultimately the prospects of a future state of retribution for the evil as well as the good done while here. These are the correctives which are supplied by education, and which exercise the functions of the moralist, the preacher, and legislator; and they lead into a course of correct action all those whose depravity is not too profound to be eradicated." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814. ME 14:142

Education will NOT replace morality

Education cannot replace Morality
"The compulsions of the law seem to have been provided for those only who require compulsions." --Thomas Jefferson to Albemarle County Commissioners, 1780. Papers 15:590

"That every man shall be made virtuous by any process whatever is, indeed, no more to be expected than that every tree shall be made to bear fruit, and every plant nourishment. The brier and bramble can never become the vine and olive; but their asperities may be softened by culture, and their properties improved to usefulness in the order and economy of the world." --Thomas Jefferson to Cornelius Camden Blatchly, 1822. ME 15:399

"The human character, we believe, requires in general constant and immediate control to prevent its being biased from right by the seductions of self-love." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:489

"Self-love... is the sole antagonist of virtue, leading us constantly by our propensities to self-gratification in violation of our moral duties to others. Accordingly, it is against this enemy that are erected the batteries of moralists and religionists, as the only obstacle to the practice of morality. Take from man his selfish propensities, and he can have nothing to seduce him from the practice of virtue. Or subdue those propensities by education, instruction or restraint, and virtue remains without a competitor." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814. ME 14:140

tenue labrum cunei
THere's a rap, on art, nudity and deviants, by Deadman Turner (at http://www.macidol.com/song/22825) which concludes:

The ones whom you call sick might view
as perverts those who act like you;
if you yourself want liberty,
you must allow the same for me.

Education will not replace morality
"A regard for reputation and the judgment of the world may sometimes be felt where conscience is dormant." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1825. ME 16:114


"In every government on earth is some trace of human weakness, some germ of corruption and degeneracy, which cunning will discover, and wickedness insensibly open, cultivate and improve." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207

"What institution is insusceptible of abuse in wicked hands?" --Thomas Jefferson to L. H. Girardin, 1815. ME 14:270

"I do not believe with the Rochefoucaults and the Montaignes that fourteen out of fifteen men are rogues. I believe a great abatement from that proportion may be made in favor of general honesty. But I have always found that rogues would be uppermost, and I do not know that the proportion is too strong for the higher orders and for those who, rising above the swinish multitude, always contrive to nestle themselves into the places of power and profit. These rogues set out with stealing the people's good opinion, and then steal from them the right of withdrawing it, by contriving laws and associations against the power of the people themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Mann Page, 1795. ME 9:306

"Such is the moral construction of the world, that no national crime passes unpunished in the long run... Were your present oppressors to reflect on the same truth, they would spare to their own countries the penalties on their present wrongs which will be inflicted on them in future times. The seeds of hatred and revenge which they [sow] with a large hand will not fail to produce their fruits in time. Like their brother robbers on the highway, they suppose the escape of the moment a final escape and deem infamy and future risk countervailed by present gain." --Thomas Jefferson to Francois de Marbois, 1817. ME 15:130

responsibility
The economy and morality are not mutually exclusive. Without morality and doing the right thing even when no one is looking, the whole thing will fall apart. Which brings us back to where are the parents? How will any child know about sex on tv if the parents are exercising the use of the on/off switch. If you feel fear is the only tool you have you will very quickly lose control of the situation. From the time my children were very young we answered all and any questions age apropriately at the time. We taught them that with sex like anything there is a time and a place for it. We taught them our values and helped them with any questions they may have to this day. They are now young men, 20 and 23, one has a steady girlfriend whose mother would love to have him spend an overnighter to which he has refused. Both of them agree that now is not the right time. Mind you. they met in the youth gruop at our church. What is hard for me to understand is that all of these things seem to be black or white when the truth is somewhere in between. The biggest problem I have is that my fellow parents seem to be refusing to be parents. You also don't have to be Preaching all the time, if you get to the preaching part you have already lost.

Economics, posters!

"Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations" ... Thomas Jefferson

talent scout, ed, ropati, etc.
The important point to the column isn't whether or not the nation is spiraling into moral decay --

-- the point is you can't use the GOVERNMENT to do anything about it. All you'll end up doing is creating worse problems. The Law of Unintended Consequences will bite you in the Hindquarters.

One point about there being fewer teenagers, and hence fewer teen-pregnancies, etc. The statistics are based on RATES. Meaning, so many per 100,000. The RATES are down, regardless of the absolute number.

Speaking of Teen Preggers
I think there may be more of us worried about the decline of morality than some of you would give us credit for. And I think the decline in teen-pregnancies etc. may be an indication of that.

What I'm thinking is that people are waking up to the fact that you can not rely on TV, schools, neighborhoods, etc. to impart the kind of morality you think is important. As a parent, YOU have to do it YOURSELF.

I think the decline in teen-pregnancies etc. shows us that a lot more parents are taking on this responsibility than before.

Perhaps, 50 years ago, a parent didn't need to be quite so proactive. Today, a parent MUST be proactive: and more and more parents are stepping up to the plate.

I think there's hope for us yet; if we can just keep the Government from taking over what's left of our lives.

Stossel is not in Government
Unca Alby writes
Subject: talent scout, ed, ropati, etc.
The important point to the column isn't whether or not the nation is spiraling into moral decay --

-- the point is you can't use the GOVERNMENT to do anything about it. All you'll end up doing is creating worse problems. The Law of Unintended Consequences will bite you in the Hindquarters.
===
ts:
Or did you not know that?
I am disagreeing with Stossel.
I do not know who you are disagreeing with, by telling me this.

"the point is you can't use the GOVERNMENT"

This is wrong anyway
The government is established in moral laws, and no such thing as a criminal law exists that is not about morals.

None
Not murder, not theft, not rape, not any criminal law.

The reason the 10 Commandments have been taken out of the Court today, is because its against stealing, adultery and such.
Lawyers and Judges cannot have that in a Court room today.

Do not tell me morals are not important, both in and out of government.

Stossel is not in Government
Unca Alby writes
Subject: talent scout, ed, ropati, etc.
The important point to the column isn't whether or not the nation is spiraling into moral decay --

-- the point is you can't use the GOVERNMENT to do anything about it. All you'll end up doing is creating worse problems. The Law of Unintended Consequences will bite you in the Hindquarters.
===
ts:
Or did you not know that?
I am disagreeing with Stossel.
I do not know who you are disagreeing with, by telling me this.

"the point is you can't use the GOVERNMENT"

This is wrong anyway
The government is established in moral laws, and no such thing as a criminal law exists that is not about morals.

None
Not murder, not theft, not rape, not any criminal law.

The reason the 10 Commandments have been taken out of the Court today, is because its against stealing, adultery and such.
Lawyers and Judges cannot have that in a Court room today.

Do not tell me morals are not important, both in and out of government.

I see No Talent is back to
the cut-and-paste.

And his own nauseating view of morality.

There are cures for logorrhea, you know.

A rreal problem
I am of two minds on this article. I am and have always been solidly opposed to government censorship in most forms of public broadcasting. However, what we have now is not good either. A few “risqué” shows that dealt with adult topics and used a few choice adult words is one thing. An airwave that is saturated with sex, obscenities, and perversions that I never knew existed in the 50s is not OK. It would help if we had some balance.

I had come to the conclusion long ago that there is almost NOTHING on network TV worth watching. As I said yesterday, I don’t even watch more than a half hour of news a day now. Other shows I watch are a few on the History Channel and other similar channels and even they have drifted out of their niche with time wasted shows about Ice Road Truckers and crackpot monsters. As it stands the only other thing left is college football in the Fall when UGA plays SC (go dogs).

The only thing a TV is worth now is playing old DVD movies from the 50s. That is probably the solution. If everyone stopped watching network TV entirely they would go out of business.

talent scout -- Legislating Morality
I will allow that certain types of "morality" can be "legislated." Murder, rape, theft, tapping your neighbor's TV cable, etc.

For certain other types, the government should have a strict hands-off policy.

Be careful that you don't try to have government legislate TOO MUCH morality. When you do that, you get places like Iran.

We don't want that kind of society here.

The decay of morality is something PEOPLE need to address: NOT government. And, as I said in a previous post, that's exactly what appears to be happening these days. More and more people are recognizing that morality is THEIR responsibility, no one else's.

Quite so, Unca Alby
"More and more people are recognizing that morality is THEIR responsibility, no one else's."

And least of all No Talent.

Then go argue with someone
Unca Alby 2:37 AM EST
Subject: talent scout -- Legislating Morality


The decay of morality is something PEOPLE need to address: NOT government. And, as I said in a previous post, that's exactly what appears to be happening these days. More and more people are recognizing that morality is THEIR responsibility, no one else's.
===
Who has said what you dreamed up that I have said!
Capiche?

Its is not me, so take it to someone else

Vic -- irt TV
I'll tell you the same thing I've said to people for some time now. If you're concerned about sleaze on TV, get rid of it, especially if you've got kids in the house.

I have to tell you this true story my Dad told me about me.

I am going to be 55 soon. When I was a wee lad, I used to watch cowboys and indians on TV all the time. And, I was a late child. I have two nieces older than me. So my parents were three generations ago, not two. My dad (RIP) was born in 1903.

Dad had taken me into a store, and there was an Indian in the store selling something, I don't know what.

My reaction was to hide behind my dad's leg and scream, "DAD! IT'S AN INDIAN! GET YOUR GUN! SHOOT HIM, SHOOT HIM!"

That Indian looked at my dad, like HE was the one who'd taught me this. My poor dad felt horrible, and wanted to find a tiny hole to crawl into.

And this is, what? 50 years ago? TV was still a pretty new phenomenon. Nobody really knew what its impact was going to be. My dad learned its power and impact the hard way.

TODAY, people know to tell their kids, "THAT'S ONLY TV, IT ISN'T REAL." Or, at least, I've been sure to tell MY kids that! I'll even point out when we see an actor in more than one show, "Look, see? Same actor as that other show! NOT REAL!"

I don't want a repeat of my poor dad's experience!

talent scout - - We Agree?
I am glad we don't have to argue on the point.

It's just that (and you KNOW this is true), very often when somebody complains about something, whether they actually say it or not, behind their complaints is the implicit assumption that the Government should "DO SOMETHING" about it.

I guess then that we agree that this is NOT a problem for the Government to involve itself with.

Put up the reference

will writes:


"Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations" ... will
===
95% of all laws concern money.
Banking, trade, sales, taxes, minimum wage, financing.

Because thievery and stealing is immoral, we have laws against it, moron.

I doubt it
Unca Alby writes: talent scout - - We Agree?


I guess then that we agree that this is NOT a problem for the Government to involve itself with.
=====
ts:
Who is the government in your thinking?
The people or a ruler?

People make law by elected representatives.
If the people decided to outlaw the color red, it would be against the law to wear red.

And if that is what the people wanted, then its constitutional.
Once upon a time, when Americans were a moral people, they made laws against adultery, fornication, sodomy and prostitution.

The people wanted these laws cause they were MORAL people.
No longer the case.
So now they spread sexual disease and promote adultery, fornication and sodomy and try to use education to make it all safe.
ha ha
Morons

Big Subject.
Well, the longest lasting government was the most intrusive government: Rome. The largest portion of the emperors edicts had to do with morality. When the morals of the Pagan religion totally failed, the emperor Constantine forced the new morality of Christianity upon his population, resulting in second thousand years for a new version of the Roman Empire.

And of the morality edicts, the largest portion of them had to do with family, and corruption in government. What the emperors saw as harmful to the continuing existence of Rome, was the decline in Roman citizen population, due to birth control, abortion and homosexuality. One major edict gave women special rights of ownership, if they would merely produce three children.

Of course, many reading this will immediately jump to the known immorality of Nero and Caligula -- not true in Nero's case. Yes, even Rome, at the time recognized bad leadership, and after these two, quickly returned to imposing religious morality through the emperor's edicts.

But this stuff is a big subject, and the reasons for a lasting government are highly complex. Oh, a lasting government usually results in a lasting people, in the largest sense of the meaning.

Peronally, I'm not "for" or "against" any criticism in Stossel's report, or any other opinion of we posters. I'm merely reporting what is little known, or remembered.

Unca Alby
I think you misunderstand what I wrote. I am against censorship AND I have effectively got rid of network TV.

And no,I don't have any children in the house.

LOL, it is a coincidence that this article came out today. Yesterday my TV (55” HD projection TV) had a blip and the picture went off. I had to turn the TV off and allow it to cool down before I could get it back. I told my wife it looked like it was getting ready to crap out. We had been wanting to get a new LCD TV that could be mounted above the fireplace and get back some room that the big projection TV was taking up…..but.

The topic was, even if the TV goes out and can’t be restored can we justify spending $2K on a new TV when the only thing we use the current one for is watching 30 min of news, 5 min of Cavoto, UGA football, and Wheel of Fortune (wife).

That debate is still on-going.

talent scout - -
"And if that is what the people wanted, then its constitutional."

Now you know better than that.

If "The People" want "red" to be against the law, they have to get that INTO the Constitution, as currently it is not.

Laws against fornication, sodomy, prostitution, etc. are NOT in the Constitution; never have been.

Vic -- I didn't misunderstand --
-- I mis-stated my position.

Or, more accurately, you reminded me of that story, and I wanted to share it.

Uncle Alby
It was a good story. Did you ever talk to your dad about what he felt like after you were older?

Vic - the story
Oh yah.

He said the Indian didn't say a thing, just gave him That Look. He felt about two inches high!

will - On morality
--
Errs will:

"Morality has absolutely nothing to do with the prosperity - and rise and fall - of a nation."


On the contrary (decidedly so!), morality has *EVERYTHING* to do with the prosperity of a polity.

The problem is that religious butt-wipes like talent scout restrict the use of the term "morality" to what people do with their fiddly bits.

Which is, of course, the last, least, and most ridiculously unimportant aspect of life in any community.

If (as talent scout fantsizes) what one does with foreskin and penile frenulum really matters in every American's political, economic, and social life, then we're all as stupid and psychotic as he is, and that's just plain pucking impossible.

So let's look at the subject of morality from something higher than talent scout's verminous viewpoint, okay?

What is morality, anyway?

Well, you know I like Heinlein.

"Correct morality can only be derived from what man is — not from what do-gooders and well-meaning Aunt Nellies would like him to be."


And there's talent scout - the perfect Nellie - and his demented fixation upon what he'd like human nature (and morality) to be.

But why is real morality important? Why it is important for us - as individual human beings, as members of our communities, as Americans - to think and act with respect for sound (as opposed to religious) moral standards?

Because we need to live with one another, and (unlike talent scout) we're smart enough to know it.

Therefore we create and uphold government under rule of law to defend individual rights to life, to liberty, and to property.

Because without that kind of morality, we can't live together.



=====
"Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law."

-- Ayn Rand

Apples and Oranges
The debate on morality v education is disingenious at best. Education provides technical expertise(ie how things work, how to communicate, etc). Morality addresses the manner in which we conduct our lives, particularly in dealing with each other. To be a fully functioning human being, we all need both.

Social engineering
Ask most conservatives what about liberals drive them crazy. They will usually at least reference the desire among liberals to decide things for the good of common Americans. Whether we should give up our cars for the good of the environment, pay more in taxes in so it can be re-distributed, or counteract market will with cap and trade. All these things have one thing in common. Liberals want to dictate behavior and outcome for everybody else.

Then ask liberals what about conservatives drive them crazy. The response will likely contain a discussion about attempts to control human behavior. Abortion. Teen sex. Gay marriage. Many conservatives want to control these aspects of behavior presumably a suitably moral society.

We may not like it, but it is far better to use education to counteract society induced danger to our youth. And far better to use education create environmental and income distribution goals.

Attempts to control human behavior inevitably fail.

Stossel's the one being dishonest.
Stossel writes, "But where is that increase in out-of-wedlock births, etc.? We were surprised to find that although STDs are up and the '60s sexual revolution brought an increase in teen pregnancy, over the past 10 to 15 years, the rape rate, the divorce rate and the percentage of teens having premarital sex have steadily declined."

1. So you admit that the STD rate and the teen-pregnancy rate haven't gone down? You only said that the divorce rate and the premarital-sex rate haven't gone down.

2. You say that the divorce rate and the premarital-sex rate have gone down over the last "10 to 15 years." What about over the last 40 years, since the sexual revolution? Have those rates gone up or down over that period, the period when social conservatism was under attack? Isn't it dishonest to look at only the last 10 to 15 years? Come to think of it, what's "10 to 15 years?" Are you using totally different figures for the divorce rate and the premarital-sex rate--say, 10 years for one, and 15 years for the other? Why would you do that--unless you too are being dishonest?

Just like that polygamy column (where Stossel cited only a study that agrees with his position on polygamy, and ignored the authorities that say polygamy causes serious problems), Stossel is cherry-picking what to cite in his column. John Stossel, give me a break. You're far more dishonest than the targets you shoot at in this column.

Vic - Reply #23
Right on! Outside of an hour or so of news (Brit Hume and the Panel) we have almost turned the TV off. The networks offer mindless, boring drivel for the most part. History Chanel, I agree, has its bad moments, as does Discovery, but is better than the networks. Gosh, where do they get these nitwits?

Typo
I should've said, "You only said that the divorce rate and the premarital-sex rate have gone down."

Sexually transmitted...
..diseases and teenage pregnancy hasn't gone down in the African American community, it's gone up, up, up, up. If you want to lump them in with everyone else, yes, it's gone down but pull them out and it's out of control.

The Sky Has Benn Slowly Falling
John,

Out of wedlock birth rates are near 40% nationally, and in the 70%s for blacks. We have at least a million abortions a year in this country. That number is likely underreported. Is this a prescription for a country that can continue to lead and prosper. This is the 40th anniversary of Humanae Vitae. Everything Pope Paul VI predicted has come true John. There is hope in a younger generation that seems less enamored with an ideology steeped in sexual liberation than their parents. Sadly, however, government has created an unwed underclass which will not easily relinquish their dependence on liberal programs or accept the norms required to sustain our nation.

Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was it destroyed in a day. The sky has been slowly falling John. It will take an enormous amount of courageous leadership, a re-emergence of faith in the larger role of our nation, limitation of government and a surge in individual fortitude to turn this ship. I believe the greatest nation in the history of this planet can do this but it will be no easy task.


That Is The Slope That Was/Is Slippery
Sex sells and that is why it is found around the clock on TV and in the movies. And I'm guessing that most of the sources of those outlets are men, not women. But not leaving women outside the blame area, they are the ones who teach children what to wear and how to wear it. Down at the top, up and down around the waist and up from the bottom.

If the subjects are God or sex...
...you can bet talent scout and a few other obsessed individuals will be on the thread. Frankly it is a little embarrassing to be seen on the same site with such narrow minded atavists.

If only you had daughters, Mr Stossel...
...you would almost surely change your tune. The idea that pervasive sexual messages are not poisoning the minds of our children is asinine. Laughable. Pure folly. Almost unworthy of comment. You can choose statistics selectively to try to prove otherwise, but every responsible father of daughters knows the truth.

The message
At least a few people got Stossel's point. It isn't that morality isn't important or that moral decline isn't a problem, it's that government intervention isn't going to help improve our morals.

As for the fact that, yes, criminal law is of course based on morality -- murder is morally wrong, etc., I like what was said in the book "What ever Happened to Justice?" by Richard Maybury.

Don't have the book in front of me, but he uses a quote by Thomas Jefferson: "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Focusing on the latter part of the quote, Maybury uses the "picks my pocket/breaks my leg" pairing is a concise summary of the original basis for all criminal and civil law.

Criminal law (breaks my leg) and civil law (picks my pocket) require that there is an actual event with an actual victim.

The moral issues that people argue government shouldn't legislate are cases where the victim, if there is one, is very murky. Such laws, like laws against pornography often seek to "protect us against ourselves" which is not a task the law should undertake, in my opinion.

We turned off all broadcast TV in my house almost 20 years ago and made the financial sacrifice (sacrifice of a second income) to home school our children. In other words, we stopped griping about what they show on TV and teach in the schools and actually did something about it. We weren't rich when we made that decision. I was making at most $35k per year at the time, but we decided we could live on that and my wife could give up her job to teach the kids. People talk about how important their children are to them, and they complain about the culture, but I see few making the sacrifices to really do something about it.

Morality starts in the home
I agree with you John. Conservatism is all about taking personal responsibility is it not? Then take some personal responsibility and teach your children the correct values, and don't worry about what other people do. They will be fine, and we won't have the heavy handed government these people AND the liberals seem to think is the answer to everything. A moral society starts in the home, not on the floor of the legislature.

Clay

By all means...
...don't let facts stand in the way of subjective ideology which seeks to control other people's behavior.

It's one thing to control your own behavior, it's another when trying to control other people's behavior. Wow, doesn't that sound like liberal ideology: controlling other people's behavior, the very thing conservatives despise.

If someone's sexual behavior is costing you personally in some manner financially, then stop your legislators from investing tax dollars into a particular program or stop donating to that organization.

If someone's sexual behavior isn't costing you anything financially, then maybe it's time someone told you to mind your own business.

No one person left anyone else in charge.

Stossel you are spot on, as usual.

InsightingTruth (#51)
"Atavists"?

May I suggest "troglodytes"?

mendicus
What poisons the minds of others is not sex but your inability to act responsibly and speak to the subject logically and maturely.

If you are unable to communicate with your daughters about the consequences of behavior, instilling the concepts of accountability, ownership of personal choice and being able to respond to those choices made throughout life, then you haven't done your job as a parent. It's likely you don't understand the concepts yourself, nor live by them.

Schuking the responsibility onto others to modify their choices, behavior, advertising, et.al. because you lack the skill to parent is not anyone's responsibility but your own.

Perhaps if you were a better parent such ideas to post on townhall would not enter your mind.

The real problem...is you!
"it's that government intervention isn't going to help improve our morals."

Great statement.

Morals and values are subjective to each individual. Freedom and choice throughout life propagate an individual developing his or her own personal value system by which to live.

Imposing your personal values or morals onto others is inherently ANTI-AMERICAN as it does not encourage freedom and choice.

Just because you "share" a value with someone, something someone wrote, or something you read somewhere, doesn't mean anything more than you happen to "share" that value. It's purely subjective.

Millions of Germans "shared" the value that Jews were to be eliminated; wow, millions of muslims feel the same way about Americans and Jews - so what!

Teaching your children the understanding of taking ownership of their choices in life is the greatest lesson you will give to them. Not doing so and imposing your distorted views onto them only hurts them when they step out into the world to tackle it.

I suppose you're entitled to destroy your child's mind through fear, control, manipulation, distortion; you think you own them.

Question is, what kind of parent seeks to do such harm.

The Sky Isn't Falling
Mr. Stossel:
Sometimes people complain about one thing, when they don't understand what really upsets them. I suspect most people who complain about what they see around them (pornography, sex on TV, etc), what they really don't like is that there is no where, in the modern world, to get away from that, if one so desires. Most of us, if we think deeply, would concede freedom of speech and thought, in the public place. What bothers them is that the access to privacy has been lost. There is NO WHERE that one can go to live his/her life as he/she pleases, as long as he/she does not invade someone else's privacy.

WOW!
For a person who quotes Jefferson: " know the changes the acceptance of immorality into public speech and vision"

...you seem to be under the impression that someone other than you is responsible for hearing what you might have to hear or seeing what you might have to see.

The mere use of the term morality suggests that you believe yourself in charge of or in possession of information by which the rest of us should be living.

Society and mankind evolve - that's a fact. Your distaste for certain behaviors, images, words, etc. is nothing more than a matter of personal subjective philosophy and comfort.

By what authority have you been granted the personal right to infringe on the freedom of other human beings to life, liberty and pursuit of personal happiness?

What authority within the Constitution relegated morality or values to you to decide for EVERYONE what is or isn't moral; what is or isn't valued?

Outside of the Constitution itself, who died and left you in charge?

Laws are consequences to behavior which cost others their personal freedom and liberty to pursue the life they choose to live.

Laws are not moral codes by which to live. If you happen to share a "value" of particular law because you happen to place "value" upon that law, so what. It doesn't mean you hold authority nor does it mean that you are "right". It suggests only that that which you place subjective value upon in life is written into law giving consequences to those who act in ways to abscond with another's life and liberty.


How would you know?
noInsightingTruth writes:

8:14 AM EST
If the subjects are God or sex...
...you can bet talent scout and a few other obsessed individuals will be on the thread.
====
ts:
Unless you are on the same threads?
What you doing here.
So whats your problem?
Me?
Love it!
Gonna be your problem till the day I die.
If you are so captured by what I have to say and follow me around like a few others to direct your comments AT me, and not the subject.
You are my prisoner for life, smile.
It makes me very happy to see how much control I have over you and the others here who cannot keep from letting what I say trouble you.
It thrills me to know this power I have over you is real, cause its truth.
And only the truth reigns over all.
Like it or lump it.
I do not care how you take it, and enjoy seeing it bother you.

Like it does the grumpy old hateful SJ Doc, lol.






=====
noInsightingTruth writes:

Frankly it is a little embarrassing to be seen on the same site with such narrow minded atavists.
====
ts:
I see you! lol
You fool

9th and 10th Amendment

talent scout - -
"And if that is what the people wanted, then its constitutional."
======

Unca Alby writes: 3:46 AM EST
Now you know better than that.
====
ts:
Not really
I learn by reading the Constitution.
Try it sometime.

=====
Unca Alby writes: 3:46 AM EST
If "The People" want "red" to be against the law, they have to get that INTO the Constitution, as currently it is not.

Laws against fornication, sodomy, prostitution, etc. are NOT in the Constitution; never have been.
=====
ts:
Have you ever read the 9th and 10 Amendments?
Evidently not.
Here is what it says, and if you do not understand the words, go buy yourself a dictionary and learn what these words mean.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

talent scout
I don't think others are controlled by you, it seems more apparent that your are devolving society with narrow minded thinking which seeks to degenerate the potential of our nation and the world toward more freedom and choice along with greater levels of development.

Perhaps YOU think yourself more powerful than you are, it would not be unlike a mind such as yours since those that think themselves "right" usually have elevated themselves, in their own minds, as better than everyone else.

Time and your posts will reveal whether this observation is fact or opinion.

missed a word...
"your 'ideas' are..."

Society...
..is sick and stupid as well. Inane comedies like Family Guy and 2 1/2 Men are garbage dumps for morally depraved folks. I never watch TV anymore due to the incessant accomodation that everything is predicated toward SEX. TV has become an open cesspool into your home.

Where's the outrage?
Bob Dole asked the question, although in a completely different context.

In the late 1920s, when Hollywood persisted in "pushing the envelope," as it's now called, the American people rebelled and called upon Congress to do something. The result was the United States Motion Picture Production Code. In those pre-ACLU days, it was accepted and for more than 30 years the Hays Office dictated what was and was not acceptable in movies. It was finally disbanded in 1968 in favor of the current MPAA rating system.

Now, with movies and TV becoming racier all the time, there is no such mass movement to curtail it. Indeed, charges of censorship vie with those of racism as behavior that must be condemned.

I submit that the lack of organized protest over such content indicates an overall acceptance of it. Sure, there are pockets of resistance, but society has coarsened to the point where what once would have been considered depravity is now tolerated, if not condoned.

The media reflects society. To change the former, address the latter. And that can only be done one person at a time.

Ignorance abounds on this subject
Would not be so bad if ignorance was not worshipped by such as this one.

====


scooternyc writes:- 10:03 AM EST
WOW!
For a person who quotes Jefferson: " know the changes the acceptance of immorality into public speech and vision"


What authority within the Constitution relegated morality or values to you to decide for EVERYONE what is or isn't moral; what is or isn't valued?
===
ts:
I am subject to the same laws of morality, hardly a unique position to hold from any other man ever born.
Like it or not, you do not determine what is moral either, even if you imagine you have such powers.
Walk on in your dream world, you will have a rude awakening how small and insignificant you are
====
scooternyc writes:-


Laws are consequences to behavior which cost others their personal freedom and liberty to pursue the life they choose to live.
====
ts:
The Law takes Liberty away every single day of the year.
Its called Prison.
How can you be so ignorant of prisons and what they are all about?
They are built to take liberty away from those who do what?
Break the Law, moron.
====
scooternyc writes:-
Laws are not moral codes by which to live.
===
ts:
That statement is brain dead stupid.
All Criminal Law is based in MORALS, moron.
Break the Law and you will lose your LIBERTY.

Try robbing someone and see what happens to your liberty, moron.

So many ignorant people today are given a voice, and yours is that of an unlearned twit





seeing sex has no influence?
I don't know what planet many of you are from but in the area of the country I live in, there is a viscous cycle going on. Children, living in poverty, are being exposed to sex on all sides especially from their mom or dad making more illegitimate kids with other adults. Do you know where this leads the kids who see it? They follow their parents and the puke on TV which appears to be the "OK" thing to do. This only entraps them in the same viscous cycle of making more illegitimate kids in turn keeping them in poverty. We recently had a renter living close by with seven kids from 4 different fathers. They couldn't remember each others last name as some had taken their many father's name and some their mother's. And you guys think the environment kids grow up in has no influence?

If religion means nothing to many of you, how about the monetary problem it's causing?? The demise of a democracy always comes by giving more to the populace than the taxpayer can afford, pushing it into a socialistic dictatorship. We now each owe nearly 40M each for the debt our country is in! I guess you guys will be happy with Obama as our new dictator as he will surely bankrupt this country with the new welfare he promises!

proffate
You are mistaken in your history on the Motion Picture Code. That code was installed primarily as a result of the Fatty Arbuckle scandal (which was all a myth to begin with). The code was done voluntarily by the industry and was NOT something promulgated from Washington.

It may have went too far in it’s application, but at least it tried to restore some balance in what was then thought to be run away sex and nudity in the movies. The laughable thing about it was that at the time the movies were tame compared to what we show in the homes on TV now.

Good article John…
… Has anyone ever thought of the DAMAGE or MENTAL ABUSE that comes about when PARENTS (who probably do not know any better) teach their children that sex is dirty in the first place? Then, when they grow up and get into a relationship, wonder why it blows up in their face! They (a heck of a lot of girls) are taught from a child on that SEX is DIRTY and NASTY and should not be enjoyed. So; who do you hold to blame for the biggest cause of the problems with sex? GOD?..... talent scout; I think it is the lack of knowledge passed on by the parents (or afraid to pass on) AND the willingness to get the desired knowledge from ones so called friends. I do think it is more misinformation that is the problem because if given a choice most thinking people would not want to harm themselves. Unless you use the “it will never happen to me” theory that is. I lived in Europe for many years while in the Air Force and SEX was never the problem like it is here. Just maybe WE caused this problem by not educating our children. Like anything else one must respect what can come from sex, respect for anything is neither taught or encouraged in the young generation and that is exactly the problem!

Moral Laws are Natural Law
Learned over a span of many years by the nations.

If nothing was considered evil and there was no crime, then no laws ever need to have been made.

Every nation has laws against the same basics, and only differ in how they judge the evil doer, the criminal.

Reading this thread one would think some who post here do not have a clue we have criminal courts and criminal law.

All of it based in morals.
Every single law made against crime is founded in a moral law.

Regardless if that law is about theft or sexual deviancy.

Morality is the base of a Marriage between a man and a woman.
A life time contract for most of the history of America and the world.

This idea was given at the beginning and will not be changed, amended or abolished by fools who think they can change natural law.

This is the problem with American Society today, instead of teaching morality, this society is promoting immorality.
And then makes excuses for the people who die and are unhappy in this life.

They have chosen to ignore the path to happiness, peace and contentment, for the pleasures of the flesh that brings nothing but CORRUPTION.

Walking in the counsel of the insane madmen of today who flaunt by attitude and deed against the laws of nature.

And are FOOLS.

Ancient knowledge and wisdom for the pursuit of happiness is now mocked!


For the bible believing mockers, here ya go.

Psalms 1 -


1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.


4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.





Gnash your teeth cause I quote scriptures, its fun to watch.
Its enjoyable


Speak up
Could it be that the reason out of wedlock births and teen births appear to be going down, may be the lack of stigma and ease of getting abortions?
I imagine our society will survive, but is survival our only goal? I recently endured a flight sitting next to two attractive young women who carried on a conversation filled with expletives with no seeming awareness that the language that spewed forth from their mouths was in the least bit inappropriate in a confined space of strangers.
I don't expect the government to solve these problems, it has to come from the adults who remember. I should have spoken up, I regret that I didn't.

Degenate Immoral Vile Disgusting
People run hollywood, people whose morals are lower than a b*tch dog in heat.
Animals that would screw a rock pile if they thought a snake lived there.

These scum are contributing to the immorality of this nation, and admired for it by FOOLS!

They grow rich and fat for the slaughter to come, Judgment of the Terrible and Fearful God of Nature.

Whose Laws they are not ignorant of, but they mock Him, and think they will escape as if they can commit the perfect crime.
Idiots whose judgment lingers not, but is already on them and they do not have a clue, thinking He that Created the World cannot see and hear.

Like the Grapes of Wrath, they are RIPE and Ready to Tread Down into wine.

Isaiah 63:3 -
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment

I love quoting the bible, cause I know it angers the fools.
I laugh at them and their anger at me.

America was planted in Righteousness and now has become a nation of degenerates.
Only a remnant hold to our Foundations.

As God said to Israel, He says to America


Jeremiah 2:
20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.


21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD





For the ignorant among us
The Bible does not teach against Sex.
In fact it has lots to say about Sex.
Both for and against.

Matthew 19:5 -
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mark 10:7 -
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Sex is the reason

Its honored, its fabulous, its beautiful.
When its done decently and in its place.

Its disgusting, its vile, its degenerate when done INDECENTLY, and in PUBLIC

Yes and No
Where I do enjoy the fact that we are more open and honest about sex in general. I am tired of seeing it every time I turn on the t.v. My solution is to stop turning the t.v. on. As a true conservative I must recognize that although I do not like it, it is not up to the governement to fix the problem. It is up to the individual, like myslef, to make a stand and say I will not watch these programs and I will not support the sponsers who allow it to stay on air. Then I have to stick to my guns. You can not shake your head at the problem and then sit down with a Pepsi and watch "Sex in the City". You have to let capitalism work for you and stop crying to the government every time you get your feelings hurt. That is one liberal trick I will not stoop to.

It isn't immorality that Stossel is
Promoting. He's simply advocating that the government get off our back and stop trying to legislate the personal morality of the majority.

When parents are completely free to teach and demonstrate good morals to their children, then society will reap the benefits.

Yet I see all manner of people who claim to be "Christians" advocating a litany of draconian laws that impose their will on the rest of society.

If these folks really were followers of Christ, they would have an understanding of the age of grace.

Instead of trying to pass laws that force everyone else to live as religious folks imagine we should...perhaps they should get up off their hypocritical duffs and obey the Great Commission.

Jesus did say "Go ye, therefore, into all the world and preach the Gospel" and while you're at it, remember he also said "my word shall not return void."

What do you think will change the hearts of man? Are you going to spread the Gospel? or are you going to write letters to your senator, complaining about Paris Hilton's skirt?

Liberal vs. Conservative Tactics
Perhaps Stossel is right and many of these rates are going down. And Spriggs of the Family Research Council is also right to be concerned because rates for divorce, STD's, out-of-wedlock pregnancies etc. are still higher than they were 50 years ago. What I see is the way people pursue their goals. It seems to me that the liberals almost always want the government to legislate to impose their agenda or version of morality. It seems to me also that the conservatives, especially evangelical Christians, rely more on persuasion rather than law. In both cases I admit this is not always 100% true. But I laugh when I hear people say that Christians and conservatives want to "force their morality on everyone" because over the last 10-30 years the opposite seems to be true in that it is the liberals that want to use the law to force their brand of morality on everyone.

Criminal Law & Moral Law
Talent Scout wrote (Reply #29): "Because thievery and stealing is immoral, we have laws against it, moron."

cloudbuster wrote (Reply #51): "As for the fact that, yes, criminal law is of course based on morality -- murder is morally wrong, et"

>>

False. Thievery and stealing, murder, etcetera are illegal because they are assaults against the Equal Rights of others, NOT because they are immoral.

"No man has the natural right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of another and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him." - Thomas Jefferson

Also note that Jefferson did NOT write that Governments are formed amongst Men to secure Morals when he wrote the Declaration of Independence. Instead, he wrote that Governments are instituted amongst men to secure their Rights.

And, interestingly enough, there is no discussion, anywhere, about Morality in the Constitution of the United States...

When the Law trespasses beyond Securing the Rights of Individuals from assault to DICTATING the Conduct of Individuals by criminalizing "immoral", but otherwise peaceable, conduct, then it has progressed to Tyranny.

THE UNSPOKEN
John, you're right, in terms of overall statistics, and that is a good thing. The unspoken issue is the huge increase in out of wedlock births in minority populations. No one seems to want to deal with that because it means having to force people to confront their own personal behaviors...and that means making "judgements" ABOUT their behavior. God forbid we should do THAT! The "morality" issue is less important to me than the practical issue that these young women/babies who have babies are choosing to eliminate the possibility of living a reasonably prosperous and personally satisfying life. How sad that is! Of course there are plenty of caring liberals who are happy to give money to Planned Parenthood so that these young women can have their inconvenient "tissue" aborted. And this from someone who supports current law in this area!

Reminds me of the Betazoid wedding!
In one Star Trek flick Riker and Troi were FINALLY getting married. Betazoid ceremonies are totally nude. The running gag was everyone tying up the gyms on board Enterprise to get ready, particularly "buffet boys" Riker and La Forge and the "old Man" himself!!

-Ray

deceived nation
Ron,
So you think God will bless this nation as it goes down the toilet, passing laws promoting things that he calls an abomination? And we should just stick our heads in the sand as it happens?? That's why we now have abortion on demand, we Christians didn't stand against it!

I for one will not stand idly by as liberals continue to change this country into an ever more perverted nation bringing God's wrath upon us and our children! As I tell others of Christ, I will also make my voice heard, pushing to keep this great nation as was intended.. one nation founded on God's Holy Word! For those who don't believe our fore-fathers intentions were just that, do a little research and you'll find otherwise!

liberty
Liberty First,

What part of killing an unborn baby is not taking it's "right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness". What part of taking my tax dollars to fund abortion is not taking away some of my rights by taking my hard earned money. What part of taking my hard earned money for paying women to have illegitimate kids is not encroaching on my liberties?

Truth Detective
Stossel gets it right everytime because he his focus is the truth not political ideology which, as he points out, demands sacrifice at the altar of the God of Propaganda.

Nation of laws
Stossel is dead on. Liberals and conservatives are of the same basic stripe. Each wants to wield the government as a weapon to force their dogma on the citizens of this country. The government in this country was designed as a tool to safeguard freedom not to dictate morals or any other doctrine besides liberty. Any group who wishes to use government to take away liberty, even for God, is not worthy of it.
Culture and society have their own mechanism's to enforce mores within. But some people are committed to enforcing their mores to those outside their group. These people do not see government as a service. To them, government is merely power.

Rob from Va
Um, what part of my post ("Criminal Law & Moral Law") said anything, one way or another about abortion? What part of my post declared that any of what you are ranting about is appropriate?

Reading comprehension for the win!



For the record, legalizing acts that commit aggression against the Equal Rights of Others does NOT legitimize those acts. The converse is also true, however. Prohibiting peaceable conduct does NOT make it "criminal".

While the two are vastly different -- one legalizes criminal conduct while the other criminalizes peaceable conduct -- they share a distinct similarity. BOTH are gross misapplications of Legislative authority.

The sky is not falling
Perhaps the lower birth rate is due to the higher abortion rate in the past ten years?

Good Article
Stossel is basically saying that we don't need the likes of Barney Frank, Chuck Schumer, and Ted Kennedy deciding what we will be allowed to watch on TV. I think that's probably a good thing.

You have the right to turn off your TV if its programming offends you; you do not have the right to turn off my TV because what I'm watching offends you. You worry about your immortal soul, and I'll worry about mine. Same goes for our kids (although mine are out of the house now anyway).

Well; this is on subject so ...
... Please let me point out this small flaw in your thinking about this subject you posted: “What part of taking my tax dollars to fund abortion is not taking away some of my rights by taking my hard earned money. What part of taking my hard earned money for paying women to have illegitimate kids is not encroaching on my liberties?” First; who said they are using your money to pay for either? Do you think they are keeping track of whose money went where? As I thought; it is all about you and no one else counts. Read this sentence; the one most of your type miss or just plain overlook on purpose! “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” July 4, 1776!

This is about “ALL” of us and not just about "YOU" and your money and that is exactly why we are in the shape this country is in today… GREED!!!!! ; That is one of the seven deadly sins any Bible person should know that or money is the route to all evil. Wait! The Bible teaches that and some choose not to listen to that part. They just ask for forgiveness on Sunday and start right back Monday morning stealing what they can from overcharging there costumers. Please, this is about human’s not your money.

Liberty First
False. Thievery and stealing, murder, etcetera are illegal because they are assaults against the Equal Rights of others, NOT because they are immoral.
_________________________________________

But why is establishing "Equal Rights" important? It is because it is the moral thing to do. And please don't tell me "because it creates a stable society", because I'll ask you "Why is that important?". And again because it is a moral goal. Equal Rights cannot be seperated from morality. Equal Rights flow from morality.

Self-Control pt 1.
I agree with John in some respects in this article. Ultimately, even if you believe certain acts to be morally correct and beneficial to both society and to individuals, you cannot force people to agree with you without completely overriding personal freedoms. So, you can enforce externally morality, but you end up with Saudi Arabia or Iran.

On the other hand, if the majority of the individuals in a society do not have an agreed upon moral code that informs their own actions, then eventually you end up with chaos. This eventually leads to lose of freedoms as people would rather a larger entity or strong man impose order upon the chaos. I am convinced that this is why democracy is not effective in many 3rd world countries. They have no agreed upon moral code, and thus the strong man is necessary to impose order.

Self Control pt. 2
Unfortunately, this is where America is headed right now. In the past, the Judeo-Christian moral code has been the dominate societal and individual code, but now as these comments indicate, we are no longer a Christian nation. For instance, for all of our history until about 50- 40 years ago the vast majority of individuals would have said that sex outside of marriage was wrong, even if they themselves engaged in it, because the vast majority of people accepted the Christian moral code, whether they themselves were active in a Christian Church or not.

Now though, the vast majority of people (even a number of people who call themselves Christians), accept that at least in certain cases sex outside of marriage is okay and even desirable. This illustrates that traditional Judeo-Christian morality has been jettisoned by the majority, for better or worse.

My question is what has taken its place? Early in the comments SJ Doc suggested that we do need to respect morality, but that sexual morality is really not that important. Where does SJ Doc or will or anyone get their morality? What do we agree upon now? What morality drives you or helps you control yourself?

If you say Christian morality is outdated or misused (which I'll definitely grant you it is at times), what do you have that will replace it?

I am afraid that we are headed for chaos, because we live in a culture where everyone does what is right in his own eyes.

Glen s and oldwolves
A decrease in the stigma of abortion leading to an increase in abortion could explain the decrease in birth rates over the last decade. The problem is that abortion has been going down for most of that decase. The last I saw there was some hint that that decline was levelling off, but I have seen nothing to indicate that the declines of the 90's have been offset by an significant increase in the '00's.

So the facts don't support such an interpretation.

RE: Logos
Logos wrote: "But why is establishing "Equal Rights" important? It is because it is the moral thing to do. And please don't tell me "because it creates a stable society", because I'll ask you "Why is that important?". And again because it is a moral goal. Equal Rights cannot be seperated from morality. Equal Rights flow from morality."

>>

Equal Rights are NOT established. They are SECURED ("That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men." - Declaration of Independence).

They must be secured -- defended against those who would deny, abridge, and assail them -- in order to maintain a Free Society. And, no, it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with effecting the Safety and Happiness of the People.

(Continued...)

RE: Logos (Continued)
A Square is a Rectangle, but a Rectangle may not be Square:
It is certain that any design to assault the Equal Rights of Another is, indeed, immoral. HOWEVER, the converse is not always true. Immoral conduct does NOT, necessarily, commit aggression against the Equal Rights of Others. Thievery is both an assault against another's Equal Rights AND is immoral. Consensual fornication and sodomy, on the other hand, may be immoral but do NOT commit aggression against another's Equal Rights.

It is a fallacy to say that theivery is immoral and THAT is why it is illegal. Thievery is illegal because it is NOT peaceable conduct, it is an assault against Another's Equal Rights. That fallacy, however, is the false justification for criminalizing OTHER "immoral" conduct that does NOT assail Others' Equal Rights.

The question is, whose morality do we codify into law with that false justification? Yours? Why yours? Why not Mr. Muhammed's? Or Mr. Patel's?

(Continued...)

RE: Logos (Continued)
Equal Rights and Morality are TWO distinctly separate things, and while there may be some overlap between what is immoral and what is an assault on Equal Rights, neither flows from nor creates the other. The distinct difference between the two is that Equal Rights can be defined in objective terms. Morality, however, is quite subjective. It changes from region to region, religion to religion, culture to culture, and even from individual to individual.


When you truly, properly comprehend the depth and meaning of "Equal Rights", you will understand that Individuals, as the sovereigns of their own Lives, have the immutable Right to do things that YOU believe are immoral, so long as they DO NOT commit aggression against the Equal Rights of Others. That is the very ESSENCE of the Equal Rights to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS; The basic, natural authority, to peaceably live and conduct one's life as he or she sees fit.

THAT is the essence of Individual Freedom & Liberty.

Typical
...just because conservatives want to be able to influence their children about important issues such as sex and not Paris Hilton, et al. here comes all the liberals saying that conservatives fear education, or hate gay people, blah blah...

Why are you libs so afraid just to leave it as a personal matter for someone to be free to choose for themselves? why must you force your value system (or lack of) in everyones face? and if they choose to reject it you call them stupid or attribute it to a phobia?

rhetorical question, i know the answers to all these but the point remains. Let conservatives worry about their children and you worry about yours...your too extreme and forceful in your own ideology so you can FEEL better about yourselves i would imagine.

Liberty first
Just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD, and its his RIGHT to condemn it publicly if he wishes.

To some morality is NOT subjective, it is ordained by GOD and WORTH preserving. unless your a multiculturalist like you APPEAR to BE.

So THANKS for POINTING out the OBVIOUS and by the WAY, you don't need to type like THIS to make your POINT...its ANNOYING.

Self-Control pt. 3
John is correct in saying that the sky is not falling; it already fell. First in the intellectual community about 125-75 years ago, then in the popular culture about 50 years ago.

The majority of people in America no longer believe in an objective morality outside themselves. The deification of self or Oprahanity is the religion of America, but unfortunately that will not work very well in the long run.

Oh I know that many people will claim that we do still have a common morality that is just natural, but it is really just the residual remnant of the old Christian morality. When it comes to judging other people who hurt us then we pull it out as if we really believe in some objective standard, but regarding our own behavior, we can rationalize pretty much anything if it brings us pleasure at he moment. A natural morality has no binding force on an individual unless it is tied to a supernatural force that backs it up with consequences.

re: sam allen (#89)
I hate to break it to you, but we have ALWAYS lived, "in a culture where everyone does what is right in his own eyes." Sometimes, there is a concensus -- a general agreement -- so that what is right in each individual's own eye is ALSO right in his neighbors' eyes, but everyone (barring compulsion and criminal conduct) did what was right in their own eyes.


What you appear to describe -- please correct me if I infer too much from you post(s) -- is a desire to impose or enforce a consensus. But how do you do that in a Free Nation with a multitude of beliefs? Even amongst Christians, there are three main factions, and even those are divided into a great number of sub-factions, that cannot come to a consensus about their beliefs. Toss in Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Pagans, Wiccans, Scientologists, even atheists, all with their own various factions and sub-factions, and concensus becomes even harder to reach.

The ONLY way to achieve a concensus, then, at least as far as Law is concerned, is to divorce the Law from morality; to define what is Criminal by a secular criteria. The philosophy of Natural Law and, by extension, Natural Rights (ie: Equal Rights), when allowed, fills that role quite well.

We may disagree upon whether or not certain behavior is immoral, but, properly understood, it becomes very difficult to disagree upon whether or not it commits aggression against the Equal Rights of Others.

Liberty
Why should I care about equal rights? I mean we could define equal rights, just like I could define murder, but definition does not create obligation.

Without an objective morality that says I should care about the rights of other the definitions are meaningless to drive behavior.

You could try to convince me that defending equal rights is the best for me in naturalistic terms, but I could make a pretty good case that becoming Stalin, Mao, or a billionaire drug lord would be better for me personally. Why should any individual care about anyone other than themselves? For that matter why should they care about anything including themselves?

Logos is trying to make this same point. Rights are not objective unless they flow from something else, namely standards that define what is important (morals).

re: Marlson (#96)
"Just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD, and its his RIGHT to condemn it publicly if he wishes..."

>>

I agree. However, the distinction about whether or not they "SHOULD" is quite subjective, and will never begrudge someone's Right to criticize another's actions.

------------------------------

"To some morality is NOT subjective, it is ordained by GOD and WORTH preserving. unless your a multiculturalist like you APPEAR to BE..."

>>

The mere fact that anyone believes that THEIR morality is ordained by (their) God and, thus, is the only Right or True morality demonstrates the subjectivity of their morality quite well. It IS, indeed, subjective to their beliefs, whether they realize it or not.

This is further illustrated by the number of zealots that worship at the altars of other gods who believe the EXACT same thing -- THEIRS is ordained by (their) GOD and worth preserving. SOME (eg: Islamofacists) even believe that THEIRS must be imposed by the sword and everyone ELSE'S ground into dust.

And they will ALL argue that theirs is the one Objective Truth. By definition, that makes all morality subjective.

------------------------------

"So THANKS for POINTING out the OBVIOUS and by the WAY, you don't need to type like THIS to make your POINT...its ANNOYING."

>>

Since I made my points in contradiction or correction of others, they must not have been so obvious.

And, incidentally, since I cannot use bold or italics in this forum, I USE caps for emphasis, and I don't particularly care if it ANNOYS you or NOT.

Liberty First
Five Stars. Keep it up.

How about keeping govt out of it?
Why do people feel government needs to get involved in sex or abstinence education? Show kids the realities of parenthood and they will likely either abstain or find out about safe sex on their own. I am sure they can find information on it on the web. This isn't the '50s where there was no info to be had for teenagers. Do we really think that teens don't know about sex and have to be educated? Can you remember when you were a teen? You knew alot more than your parents thought you did I bet. By keeping government out of it you keep from being political, no answer is going to be ok in the minds of all people, so let people teach their kids what they want.

This includes making people pay for their own birth control and if they get pregnant and want an abortion they should pay for that also. There is something twisted in the desire to kill the unborn because it will save the taxpayer money in the end.

Cultural Development industry


A teenager is made to sit in a hard chair in a drafty room, next to people he doesn’t like, watching a scratchy picture on a small screen, and the teacher’ s union will tell you he is learning, learning, learning.

Later that same day, that same person is sitting in a comfortable upholstered chair in an air-conditioned room, eating pop-corn and drinking a coke, sitting next to his girlfriend, watching a technically perfect picture on a huge screen, and we are told he is learning nothing, he is being entertained.

Why is it a surprise that a person who sees hours of the trash and filth shown on TV, in computer games, and in movie theaters, has their style of life changed? And don’t say your child saw those same films and programs and killed no one. Millions of people saw a commercial for a new car last night, and only a very, very few bought the car.

Repeated and constant exposure to computer games, TV programs, and movies can and does influence a life. Can Hollywood be proud of what they teach?

Liberty comes from God
Liberty,

You are correct that the majority of societies have lived either under compulsion or in various states of chaos (tribal warring and such). So what made the western world different? How were we able to larger society where people were still free?

Not because of compulsion to believe certain things, but because the majority and the influential in our history came to agree on a common morality, which included the idea of the rights of the individual. In western history those rights are derived from the understanding that God has made individuals important. Nature in and of itself does not care. Secular criteria for natural rights always breaks down at the point of answering the why question.

Why should I care what nature says? What difference will it make in my life or in my death? Why should I even care about myself? If nature is all that we can use to define our acts, I don't see why I should care about the equal rights of anyone. Molecules in motion have not morality, they just are.

By the way, do we really disagree on whether sexual assaulting children is immoral? Can their be honest disagreement on whether the Holocaust was wrong? Almost everyone agrees that some things are simply wrong, but most people have forgotten why.

I have to Agree about Sex being More.
Recently I saw a young mother trying to interest her 4 year old daughter in a new outfit. The little girl kept shaking her head.

Mom said, "But don't you want your boyfriend to think you are sexy?"

Since when is a four year old girl supposed to look sexy - or care about whether a boy her own age thinks she looks sexy? When the children are encouraged at that age, we have a problem.

Morality subjective?
"The mere fact that anyone believes that THEIR morality is ordained by (their) God and, thus, is the only Right or True morality demonstrates the subjectivity of their morality quite well. It IS, indeed, subjective to their beliefs, whether they realize it or not."

I really love this argument. It goes something like this.

1. Some people believe A is true.
2. Some people believe not A is true.
3. Therefore there is no truth.

or you could put it this way.

1. Some people believe the earth is a sphere.
2. Some people believe the earth is a flat disc.
3. Therefore beliefs about the the shape of the earth are subjective.

In the case of morality though the argument goes more like this.

1. Some people believe that A, B, C, and D are right.
2. Some people believe that A, B, C, and E and F are right.
3. Some people believe that A, B, C, and F and G are right.
4. Therefore, morality is subjective.

scooternyc
Your ad hominem attacks indicate that you are tremendously unsure of your own position. You should be. The reasoning you promote is good and necessary, but it is also not enough. It has substantially less impact than the images it seeks to contextualize. That is especially the case with young children, whose capacity for logic is only partially developed.

Perhaps if you had thought of these things, you would have been more sparing in your attacks. An ounce of critical thought is worth a pound of vitriol.

Sam Allen
Not that Liberty First needs my help, but you're essentially asserting that the True Morality is dictated by the True (i.e. your) Religion. And as Liberty already pointed out, there is no consensus among Christian denominations, much less all other religions, on what is morally correct. For instance, some Christian denominations tolerate abortion and gay marriage while others do not. Each can cite biblical passages to support their positions. So, the assertion that morality is God given begs the question: Whose God by whose interpretation? Even the founding fathers could not agree on that and consequently used terms like Providence and Creator, not Our Savior or Jesus Christ in the founding documents.

sam allen said:
Without an objective morality that says I should care about the rights of other the definitions are meaningless to drive behavior.

-----------------------------

Our Constitution does not give its citizens their rights. Human beings already possess their rights. They are inalienable. The Bill of Rights enumerates some of the inalienable rights human beings already possess /before/ the establishment of government.

As long as the proper role of government is limited to protecting us from those who abridge our rights, the origin of our rights remains irrelevant. We can all live under the same government only as long as we limit that government to protecting and enumerating our rights.

Centuries ago, our ancestors decided that government should do more than just protect and enumerate our rights and now we, their descendants, are paying the price for that decision.

sam allen said:
Why should I even care about myself? If nature is all that we can use to define our acts, I don't see why I should care about the equal rights of anyone. Molecules in motion have not morality, they just are.
-----------------------------

You are from a very long line of people who learned that self-preservation and caring about the rights of others were essential tools to their survival.

So, where does the sense of survival come from? Only those who possessed it, survived.

A servant of bondage
Calling himself


"Liberty First" writes:
- 11:39 AM EST
Criminal Law & Moral Law
Talent Scout wrote (Reply #29): "Because thievery and stealing is immoral, we have laws against it, moron."


====

He says:
False.
===
ts:
True
===

He says:

Thievery and stealing, murder, etcetera are illegal because they are assaults against the Equal Rights of others, NOT because they are immoral.

====
ts:
How deep can the ignorance go?
Who knows as its a bottomless pit of this sort of stupidity.

This moron does not even know what the word moral means.


mor·al (môr'?l, mor'-) pronunciation
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

Without a strong moral, no such thing exists as guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


beyond a reasonable doubt
Legal; definition

The burden of proof that the prosecution must carry in a criminal trial to obtain a guilty verdict.

Reasonable doubt is sometimes explained as being convinced "to a moral certainty."

The jury must be convinced that the defendant committed each element of the crime before returning a guilty verdict.

The opposite of moral is:

amoral, bad, corrupt, dishonest, evil, immoral, sinful, unethical, unprincipled, vile

All spun in IMMORALITY


opposition industry
*

Radio talk show hosts (I sample all in my radio area) have proclaimed; they don’t “understand” liberal thinking.

Over the past 50 years I struggled with my inability to comprehend liberal thinking. After-all, many liberals have a “higher education”. I was irritated that my logical arguments were not capable of convincing left-wingers of their folly. I decided the common (as opposed to elite) liberal is simply a Cool-aid drinker.

My explanation for elites; I deduced a few years ago that an opposition industry, in the best traditions of capitalism, has dramatically expanded over the past forty years. The lame-stream media promotes such activity, because the more “Twilight Zone” the message, the more attention they can garner. Exposure for selling product and service is the incentive.

Because much of “liberal” promoted ideas are destructive to United States prosperity and liberty, which was based on traditional American values, I reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that sociopaths are best to manage that opposition activity. Consequently, not caring allows them to simply game the system to their financial advantage.

The opposition industry includes; all liberal organizations, public schools administration, most universities, aclu, sierra club, la raza, … etc.

My book is also vary controversial.
MSN search (authors name) Lingensjo

*

Legislating morality
If libertarianism holds that the government should not interfere with people unless they are causing unwanted harm to others, then anything should be permitted in advertising provided the viewer of the ad consents. Sex? Violence? Sexual violence? Yes, yes, and yes. Anything, provide the viewer consents.

The problem is that children are not legally capable of providing consent. Thus, if it is reasonable to expect that children will be exposed to an advertisement, then it is no longer the case that anything goes. The only thing that "goes" is that which does not cause harm. So the question is whether sexually charged images can reasonably be expected to cause harm to children. If the answer is "no," then we're back to anything goes. The nanny state must stay out. If the answer is "yes," then the state must step in and the issue no longer implicates libertarianism.

So how do we, as a society, know whether these images cause harm? We probably can't know with certainty, so we must make reasoned judgments based on the available evidence. But how do we decide whether certain evidence indicates harm? Is a high teen abortion rate evidence of harm? This depends on one's moral standards.

So the issue does, after all, get boiled down to morals. We cannot even decide whether this is a libertarian question without knowing whether there is harm involved, and we cannot determine harm divorced from morals. So all those who deny the relevance of morality, who claim that "you can't legislate morality," please wake up and smell the coffee. When it comes to the public square, because of the presence of non-consenters, the government does legislate morality. It might do so stricly, or it might do so permissively, but it cannot avoid doing so.

Can We Please Accept Good News?
A number of posters here just WILL NOT accept any good news.

One person speculates that there are fewer teen pregnancies because there are fewer teenagers. No, it's a RATE, not an absolute number.

Another person speculates that the lower out-of-wedlock rate might be because of the abortion rate. No, the abortion rate is ALSO dropping in the last couple of decades.

Still another person whines that, Ok, the bad statistics are dropping, but they're still higher than they were 50 years ago. Well, GEE, I'm SORRY we can't provide you with INSTANTANEOUS RESULTS!!

Some of you folks are starting to sound like liberal enviro-nuts who keep kvetching about how horrible pollution is -- IGNORING the fact that the environment is SIGNIFICANTLY CLEANER than it was 50 years ago! As liberty-killing and intrusive as the environmental laws are, they seem to be working. Pollution in the US is DOWN. The environment is MOSTLY CLEAN.

I know it's more fun to whine about problems, but we need to celebrate when there's good news! The good news makes the battle seem worthwhile! Boosts morale!

Yippee! Good News! Stop kvetching and join me in a Good News Dance! (it's Ok, I'll turn off the secret spy camera over your computer for a few minutes ... )

re: sam allen (# 99)
"Why should I care about equal rights? ..."

>>

Perhaps, just one reason, but, perhaps, because the concept of Equal Rights was more than instrumental in shaping the founding of this nation.

Or, perhaps, because it is the most objective criteria for defining Legal and Illegal within the parameters of a Free Society.

-----

"... but definition does not create obligation..."

>>

By the same token, mandates through ancient texts do not create obligation either. Obligations are either (a) accepted by choice and free will or (b) imposed by force. The Law ought to impose obligations by force as little as possible. Through Equal Rights, properly applied, the Law only imposes one singular obligation -- "Commit no aggression against the Equal Rights of Others" -- in the most objective manner possible.

(Continued...)

re: sam allen (# 99 - continued)
".... Without an objective morality that says I should care about the rights of other the definitions are meaningless to drive behavior..."

>>

The premise that there can be "objective morality" is fatally flawed. ALL morality is subjective to the individual. Most individuals share relatively common moral precepts, but ALL individuals also disagree on other precepts or on degrees. You will NOT find any two individuals that share the exact same moral values.

At best, religions may offer common moral FOUNDATIONS to build upon.


That is the benefit of the philosophy of Natural Law. It provides, through the concept of Natural/Equal Rights, properly understood and applied, the most objective foundation for governing a Free Society. Erego, Thomas Jefferson's quote, "No man has the natural right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of another and that is all from which the Law ought to restrain him."

Freedom means being free to follow your own conscience (so long as you do not commit aggression against the Equal Rights of others) whether I agree with you or not, and vice versa.

(Continue...)

re: sam allen (# 99 - continued)
"You could try to convince me that defending equal rights is the best for me in naturalistic terms..."

>>

Why would I bother? Your replies to me make it clear that you will NOT be convinced that the Equal Rights of others matter IF exercising their Equal Rights violates what YOU believe is Correct Morality.

-----

"... but I could make a pretty good case that becoming Stalin, Mao, or a billionaire drug lord would be better for me personally..."

>>

Actually, you couldn't. Any such argument would be mounted upon false premises and fallacious logic. The venture to reach such ranks invariably causes enmity. Stalin, Mao, or a billionaire drug lord live(d) in constant, almost paranoid fear of assassination, insurrection, uprising, and/or Coup de Tats.

One is far better off achieving fame, wealth, power, and influence through free and mutual, consensual cooperation with others.

(Continued...)

re: sam allen (# 99 - continued)
"... Why should any individual care about anyone other than themselves? ..."

>>

Because no man is an island. Because a civil society is a peaceable society.

Even so, no man SHOULD care about any other beyond his own, enlightened self-interest. It is in my best interest to freely trade services for resources, because if I take by force what I need or want I create an enemy.

I certainly believe that charity is a virtue and I honor any man or woman that does care about others (beyond the scope of their own enlightened self-interest). But there is no compelling reason why they SHOULD care about anyone else (that they are not responsible for) beyond what is required by their own, enlightened self-interest.

-----

"... For that matter why should they care about anything including themselves? ..."

>>

ROTFLMAO!

Did you really ask that!? Simple answer: Enlightened Self-Interest.

(Continued...)

re: sam allen (# 99 - continued)
"... Logos is trying to make this same point. Rights are not objective unless they flow from something else, namely standards that define what is important (morals)."

>>

Making the point doesn't make it, or it's premise, correct. Properly understood, Rights are common, Natural Authorities inherrent to every Individual. Conversely, morals are Mandates and Restrictions. They are NOT Authorities, but commandments and proscriptions.

One (Rights) is a factor of Free Agency while the other (morals) limits Free Agency. Neither "flows" from the other. Where there is overlap, they may reinforce each other, but they remain separate and distinct.

mendicus --- The "Children" Shield
"The problem is that children are not legally capable of providing consent."

There you go, hiding behind that tired old "It's For The Children!" shield. The tactic is used by both liberals and conservatives.

It's a strawman. Everything about allowing liberty makes the initial presumption that we are talking about informed, consenting ADULTS, and that CHILDREN are under the care and protection of informed, consenting ADULTS.

It's like I keep telling people -- and honestly, I wish I'd taken this advice when my kids were little -- if you're worried about sleaze etc. on TV, and you've got kids in the house, GET RID OF THE TV.

It's not supposed to be the government's job to protect you from "dirty pictures" etc.

"So how do we, as a society, know whether these images cause harm?"

It doesn't matter. You are an adult, you have children in your charge, you do what's necessary to protect them. If you think "dirty pictures" will corrupt their minds, you keep them away from "dirty pictures" as part of your job as the parent.

It's not supposed to be the government's job to babysit for you.

Stossel's right on this one (kind of)
I have to say I think Stossel is mostly right on this one. Allowing the government to regulate what is ok for us to watch only gives it the ability to abuse that power. I do disagree with the idea that exposing people, especially children, to sex and violence does not have serious consequences. It seems fairly obvious that people tend to imitate that behavior they are exposed to (just look at abuse repitition cycles). However, it simply isn't the government's role to be the great cure-all here. If we can't demand decent programming as viewers, then we deserve what we get.

As with any republic or democracy, America will get what it deserves. If we have no standards, we will suffer. If we expect the government to be responsible for upholding standards, we will suffer. The only way for this to work is to promote liberty and responsibility at the same time.

re: sam allen (# 104)
"... the idea of the rights of the individual."

>>

Bingo! Equal Rights!

-----

"... In western history those rights are derived from the understanding that God has made individuals important. Nature in and of itself does not care. Secular criteria for natural rights always breaks down at the point of answering the why question..."

>>

Such a short lived victory... /sigh

You OBVIOUSLY do NOT comprehend the concept of Natural Law philosophy... OR you intentionally misconstrue it to support your position...

It is NOT about "nature" or the "laws of nature" (eg: physics, thermodynamics, gravity, etcetera). Rather, IS the very foundation of the entire concept of Natural Rights (ie: "unalienable Rights", Equal Rights, Human Rights, etcetera). In contrast to Divine Law, which may only be discovered through divine revelation, Natural Law is the philosophy of Law that may be discovered through right reason, observation, and inquiry.

Natural Law has been discovered and discussed from the Classic Greeks through the Stoics to Thomas Aquinas. It is through observation and reason that those scholars and philosophers identified certain Natural Rights such as the Rights to Life, Liberty, Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness. It IS the philosophy that had the greatest, singular impact on thirteen colonies' decision to declare their independence from an oppressor.

re :sam allen (# 106)
"I really love this argument. It goes something like this.

1. Some people believe A is true.
2. Some people believe not A is true.
3. Therefore there is no truth..."

>>

Liar.

I never said there was no Truth. No matter how you try to twist, misconstrue, and grossly misrepresent it, what I said is that morality is entirely subjective. THIS rebuttal is a pathetic attempt to disprove something that I did NOT say.

It is quite telling when someone has to resort to arguing with things I did NOT write. It is evidence that they cannot argue with what I HAVE written.

-----

"or you could put it this way.

1. Some people believe the earth is a sphere.
2. Some people believe the earth is a flat disc.
3. Therefore beliefs about the the shape of the earth are subjective..."

>>

Actually you CANNOT put it that way. There is a HUGE difference. The shape of the Earth can be empiracally tested and measured. One may be proven true and one may be proven false.

There is NO empirical test or measurement for the "truth" of morals. Their validity and their origins cannot be PROVEN. BELIEVING it is true is NOT the same as KNOWING it is true.

re :sam allen (# 106 - continued)
"In the case of morality though the argument goes more like this.

1. Some people believe that A, B, C, and D are right.
2. Some people believe that A, B, C, and E and F are right.
3. Some people believe that A, B, C, and F and G are right.
4. Therefore, morality is subjective."

>>

Do you understand what the word "subjective" means? If so, then you understand that this proof PROVES my point, right?

Different people have different moral values and standards. Therefore, morality is subjective. It is THAT simple.

re: Unca Alby (Reply # 115)
"... but they're still higher than they were 50 years ago..."

>>

Not to argue with you, sir, you make some great points, but my question is: How do we know that the statistics really ARE higher? Statistics only reflect (a) what is recorded and/or (b) admitted to on surveys and questionares.

What we have NO WAY of knowing is HOW MANY teenage girls went to anonymous pregnancy homes to have children out-of-wedlock and put them up for adoption or how many were sent to Summer with a relative in the country to give birth. The fact is, there is a history of unwed teen mothers giving birth in secret to spare themselves and/or their families from shame and humiliation in their own towns.

THOSE numbers are not reflected in statistics and, consequently, skew the analysis.

The Man's got a good point
Teenage sex is not a new problem; its been around for centuries. At least our kids are learning more about preventive / safety measures now than in times past.

Unca Alby
Your post falls short on at least two counts. First, sex in advertising is so pervasive that your "get rid of the TV" argument must be expanded to a "completely isolate yourself and your children from society" argument. The parents who choose not to live essentially an Amish lifestyle must accept the fact that they cannot completely insulate their children from the junk that's out there, and that there will be consequences of that fact.

This brings up the second, much more important, problem, which is that you've missed my point entirely. You say: "It's not supposed to be the government's job to protect you from 'dirty pictures' etc." This begs the question. If dirty pictures are harmful to children, then the libertarian argument is null and it most certainly is the government's job.

An analogy may help. Is it the government's job to protect children from people who want to have sex with them? Of course. What if it could be done with no physical harm? It's still the government's job, because the touching is inherently harmful, and because there would be negative psychological consequences. If, however, we extend the logic of your argument to this situation, then it would not be the government's job to protect children from perverts, it would be the parents' job. Those who don't want their kids touched can just drop out of society.

You might answer that the cases are distinguishable because there's no inherent harm and no consequent psychological harm in exposing a child to "dirty pictures". Therein lies the rub, for it depends on whom you ask, or more specifically, on the moral outlook of those whom you ask.

So, as I said before, the question boils down to morality, not freedom. I wish it were simply a question of freedom. Alas, it is much more complex.

mendicus said:
If libertarianism holds that the government should not interfere with people unless they are causing unwanted harm to others, then anything should be permitted in advertising provided the viewer of the ad consents.
-----------------------------
Libertarianism also holds that property should not be publicly owned.

Permission on content is given by the owner of the medium, not the end user. The owner of the medium may or may not have contractual obligations to screen some content for the end user.

The owner of network TV in the U.S. is the public. It is public ownership of the airwaves that forces us to use government to police the airwaves. Were the airwaves privately owned, the need for government regulation would cease.

mendicus -- irt Two Points
"First, sex in advertising is so pervasive that your "get rid of the TV" argument must be expanded to a "completely isolate yourself and your children from society" argument."

So what's your alternative? Put all advertising under the direct control of Herr Goebbels?



"If dirty pictures are harmful to children, then the libertarian argument is null and it most certainly is the government's job."

Well, sharp knives, guns, scissors, open flames, soldering irons, etc. are also harmful to children. Is it therefore the government's job to force blunt safety scissors into every home with kids?

"So, as I said before, the question boils down to morality, not freedom. I wish it were simply a question of freedom. Alas, it is much more complex."

It is only complex when you accept that the government has some say in controlling your life and curtailing your liberty. Then it becomes a debate over *which* aspects of your life to be controlled and *how much.*

Then you have the debate over *who's* morality. Should we accept Sharia Law and force women to wear burkhas? Or use the law in Micronesia where women commonly walk about topless? Do we split the difference, and only lock women in jail if the hem of their skirt is higher than 40% of their measured body height? Or stage a huge protest until we can get it to 30%?

When you work from the presumption of liberty, it's not complex at all. The government simply has no place making such decisions for everybody.

mendicus (Reply # 128)
"... If dirty pictures are harmful to children, then the libertarian argument is null and it most certainly is the government's job..."

>>

With all due respect, that is a misinformed conclusion. The libertarian argument is more harmed by shortcuts than your allegations.

The shortcut is in using the word "harm". Harm is far too subjective a term. To some, getting offended is being "harmed", though they've lost neither property nor faculty.

Correctly described, the libertarian position is that individuals have the right to peaceably conduct their lives as their own consciences dictate. The important distinction is in the adverb "peaceably". In this context, and for clarity whenever I use it, "peaceably" means "without committing aggression against the Equal Rights of Others".

So, rephrased, Individuals have the natural authority to live their lives as they see fit SO LONG AS they do NOT commit aggression against the Equal Rights of Others.


To properly refute the correct libertarian argument it is then incumbent upon you to demonstrate that exposure to "dirty pictures" commits aggression, through force or fraud, against the Equal Rights of others.

Fabius Cunctator (Reply # 129)
"Morality is not subjective..."

>>

Do you understand what the word "subjective" means?

Protestant Morality is different than Catholic Morality is different than Jewish Morality is different than Islamic Morality, ad infinitum. Ergo, morality is subjective. Denying the fact does NOT change the fact.

-----

"... Morality relates to the truth that there is a right and a wrong way about actions and living..."

>>

Then there is ONLY one Right and Wrong way about actions and Living and, thus, ALL moral codes and values would be identical. Since there ARE differences in Moral Codes and values, and what each teaches as THE Right and Wrong way about actions and living, your statement is proven false.

They cannot ALL be different AND ALL be The Truth.

-----

"... Your subjective idea about liberty is secondary or subjugated to what society believes are the limits of your liberties..."

>>

Spoken like a properly indoctrinated comrade... er good little subject... er sheep... er...

I reject your collectivist cool-aid. The only PROPER limits that I recognize on my Liberty are the Equal Rights of Others.


re: Unca Alby
"When you work from the presumption of liberty, it's not complex at all. The government simply has no place making such decisions for everybody."

>>

Hear! Hear!

... and hence my moniker =)

Liberty First - - -
You're right about the statistics, but, given that we don't have anything else to go on, they're good enough for me.

One interesting you reminded me of was something I'd read some time ago, don't remember where, but the old "Shotgun Marriage" had a real impact on unwed pregnancies etc.

Back in the "bad old days", before women were convinced that the only thing they needed men for was as sperm donors, everyone was much more responsible for their behavior. Because there were real *penalties* for bad behavior, including actual, and the threat of, "shotgun marriage."

Girls wouldn't "do it" unless the guy promised to marry her. And most guys would either make that promise, and usually keep it, or not "do it." Because they knew, in the back of their minds, that if a baby happened, there'd be a Preacher in their future and an angry dad holding that shotgun.

Along comes modern feminism, and modern liberalism, where the Government takes over the provision of income. So men are no longer needed as breadwinners: no more shotgun marriages, not even the threat. Just sperm donors. No more penalties, no more responsibility. So, OF COURSE bad behavior skyrockets. Not at all surprising in retrospect.

That the statistics are improving at all, despite no large return to the cultural mores of the "bad old days," actually IS surprising. People are beginning to retake control of their lives, and their children's lives, despite the absence of legal and cultural penalties for bad behavior.

Amazing. More good news. I think.

chad (Reply # 127)
"Teenage sex is not a new problem; its been around for centuries..."

>>

Great point. It never ceases to amaze me the depth of our cultural myopia with regards to teens and sex. Conservative pundits and fundamentalists tout some epidemic of teen sex AS IF it were sudden and new; as though before 1960 teenagers NEVER had sex.

The simple fact is that throughout human history MOST people's first sexual experiences were as teens. Within Western Culture it was, however, generally within the confines of marriage.

/gasp! What!?

Indeed, until relatively recently in our history (within the last 100 years or so), young adults were getting married as early as 14. As recently as the Revolutionary War a girl was considered a woman eligible to be courted and married when she reached the age of mensus.

The difference between then and now is primarily technological. Individuals could be independent, productive members of society with much less formal education back then. Life was, in fact, less complicated. Literacy and algebra, much less science and social studies, were not absolute necessities.

Now, however, much more formal eduction is required to be independent, productive members of society. As a result, teens are dependent on their parents until later in life than before. As a result we (as a society) treat them like children when they are truly young adults.

Unca Alby
Excellent post about the shotgun weddings.

I personally get fed up with statistics showing certain rates of this or that being offered as proof that society is declining because, invariably, it was better "back then". Yet, so often, the statistics for "back then" are faulty, skewed, and/or incomplete. Modern data collection, mining, and analysis is a lot better than it was just 20 years ago. Consequently, I personally don't put much stock in statistical comparisons between this or that of today versus 50 years ago...

Reply Numbers
I want to point out to you folks that the "Reply #" is not reliable at all.

For one thing, it depends on whether you've set your page to "View in ascending order" or "View in descending order".

For another thing, if the administrators happen to yank a posting for whatever reason, everything gets renumbered.

Example: Liberty First has a recent posting entitled, "chad (Reply # 127)". I look at mine (viewed in descending order), and Reply # 127 is from poster "will."

And, after I post this, mine will become the New Number One (shades of "The Prisoner"!), and will's post will become # 128. Unless someone else posts before this one, in which case will's post will be even higher.

I can't say if this is the way it's supposed to be, or is just another bug in the TH website. But I thought you folks might want to know!

Unca Alby and Liberty First
I am sympathetic to your position, believe me. But it just isn't as simple as you portray it to be.

Unca: If I had a good solution, I'd propose it. I dearly wish somebody would. The problem is real and cannot be dismissed by pseudo-libertarianism. And your scissors argument is upside down, and not terribly applicable. I'm not suggesting the government force some kind of content into our children's brains, which is what requiring safety scissors would equate to. My example of the pervert is much more directly on point, which is doubtless the reason you failed to address it. It really hurts your case.

Liberty: Your definition (not committing aggression) is conventient for your case, but I don't buy it. So let's turn to a more recognized source, John Stuart Mill: "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

As I said, the problem is real, and while throwing children to the wolves is expedient, it is not a solution. The sooner the nature of the problem is recognized, the sooner a real solution can be found.

Fabius Cunctator (Reply # 138)
"You contradicted yourself. Your 'PROPER limits' are the laws that restrict your subjective ideas about your liberty and your freedom..."

>>

Reading comprehension is key.

I did NOT contradict myself. Some Laws are NOT "PROPER limits" on my liberty and I do NOT accept them as PROPER limits. Laws that prohibit gambling, consentual drug consumption, consentual transactions of money for sex, purchasing alcohol on Sunday, mandate that I use low-flow toilets & special light bulbs, etcetera are NOT PROPER limits on liberty.

They are intrusions and abuses of government authority. You may accept them if you wish, but I choose liberty over subjugation.


----

"... Please don't try to characterize my political ideas and my beliefs with your schoolboy epithets based on your false impressions of my statements..."

>>

Then, please, do not present you statements in such a sophmoric manner that begs the characterization they receive. When you say, "Your subjective idea about liberty is secondary or subjugated to what society believes are the limits of your liberties."

I other words you are arguing that the Rights of the Individual are subjugated by the Good (or to the Whim) of the Many. That is collectivist thought in a nutshell.

If that is a false impression, then I suggest that you phrase your statements correctly so that they actually say what you mean.

Liberty,
Yes morality as it applied by different individuals and societies is subjective, but there is a core which is not subjective, and which all people agree upon, which was my point with the last argument.

Just because people disagree on some parts does not mean they don't agree on foundations.

As to natural law, I have read enough philosophy and comparative religion to realize that certain principles of behavior that help form societies have been discovered. Furthermore, I believe those principles are in fact true about the world. The individual is important and right are important, but unless you back those statement up with some sort of reason outside of just utilitarianism or "enlighten self-interest" then I am not at all convinced that they are or have been effective in managing society. Who grants the rights ultimately? Is it just other people or something higher? Are they or should they be universal rights?

Our founding fathers may not have all been explicitly Christian, but most of them believed natural rights derived from God didn't they? Aristotle believed that in universals that transcended the physical didn't he?

My point is that whether you talk about morality or rights if you want them to be universal and to have force outside of just opinion they have to be grounded in something other than the natural world. If that is true then the question is what should we use as the foundation for natural law theory or universal morality?

mendicus -- irt Throwing Kids to Wolves
“I am sympathetic to your position, believe me. But it just isn't as simple as you portray it to be.”

Of course it is. The only ones making anything complicated are the ones trying to invent more ways to control the lives of others.

“If I had a good solution, I'd propose it. I dearly wish somebody would.”

Hey, you can have my solution, free of charge!

“And your scissors argument is upside down, and not terribly applicable. I'm not suggesting the government force some kind of content into our children's brains, which is what requiring safety scissors would equate to.”

Ok, how about the government merely forcibly removes the regular sharp scissors, because they MIGHT harm children, like removing the “dirty pictures” on the exact same premise.

“My example of the pervert is much more directly on point, which is doubtless the reason you failed to address it. It really hurts your case.”

Well if you think it hurts my case, lets revisit it.

“What if [sex with a child] could be done with no physical harm?”

What if sex with an adult could be done with no physical harm?

I don’t think there is any argument there: it doesn’t matter whether any harm is done, what matters is whether there are consenting adults. Now you bring up children, again using that as a shield to hide behind. CHILDREN ARE NOT CONSENTING ADULTS.

“As I said, the problem is real, and while throwing children to the wolves is expedient, it is not a solution.”

Letting parents be parents, instead of creating government babysitters, does NOT equate to “throwing children to the wolves” – or do you really have so low an opinion of the Parents of America that you think they are not to be trusted with their own children?

Re: Liberty and my example
Actually, you couldn't. Any such argument would be mounted upon false premises and fallacious logic. The venture to reach such ranks invariably causes enmity. Stalin, Mao, or a billionaire drug lord live(d) in constant, almost paranoid fear of assassination, insurrection, uprising, and/or Coup de Tats.

Liberty,

In this quote you have to assume what you are trying to prove.

Why is enmity bad?

Further, you assume that Stalin and Mao, et. all had these feelings or paranoia. How do you know. Is life always grand for everyone in a society run on equal rights? You assume that one is better than the other without first grounding why some things are better than others.

In the long run you and I probably agree on many things that should be true about society, but we disagree on how we can ground those truths.

Re: Unca Alby
Thanks for the heads-up on the numbering!

Re: Mendicus
"Liberty: Your definition (not committing aggression) is conventient for your case, but I don't buy it..."

>>

/shrug

If it's more convenient for you to discard my argument than to address it, so be it. I see then that you are not interested in discussing what I wrote and, therefore, find no real value in bothering to reply, but...

(Continued...)


Re: Mendicus (continued)
"... So let's turn to a more recognized source, John Stuart Mill: 'That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.'..."

>>

You argued libertarianism. John Stuart Mill was an proponent of utilitarianism. His works may have helped shape modern libertarianism, but they do not define it. It is also mportant to note that Mill did not consider giving offense to constitute "harm", that an action could not be restricted because it violated the morals of society.

Thomas Jefferson summarized libertarian thought very succinctly when he said, "No man has the natural right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of another and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him." Notice that Jefferson did NOT use the word "harm"?

Though both say roughly the same thing, the distinction is in the precision. Jefferson was much more precise defining the injury to others as, "aggression against [their] Equal Rights". Mill was far more ambiguous with his Harm Principle since "Harm" is much more difficult to determine. In many ways, even eschewing giving offense as causing harm, what is "harmful" is much more subjective.

Incidentally, Mill also concluded that "harm" could include acts of omission, such as failing to give CPR to a heart-attack victim, AS WELL AS acts of commission. THAT also violates (modern) libertarian principle. Thus, I reject Mill as an authority on libertarian principle and thought and return to my.


As I said, you are evidently misinformed about libertarian philosophy. By all means, argue Mill's Harm Principle, but, please, do not misconstrue it as an argument against libertarian thought.



re: sam allen
"... but there is a core which is not subjective, and which all people agree upon..."

>>

What is that core?

Murder? That can't be it. (Certain) Islamic morality actually celebrates murdering infidels...

Monogamy? That can't be it. Various cultures -- some Muslims, some fringe Christian and Mormon groups -- support polygamy as a moral virtue.


So what core morality do ALL people agree upon?

re: sam allen
"... Who grants the rights ultimately? Is it just other people or something higher? Are they or should they be universal rights? ..."

>>

Have you studied the history of the American Revolution? If so, then you understand that those questions have been answered... unless, of course, you disagree with or want to refute those answers.

Truly, the question or Origin is merely academic. Once we accept that individuals have Rights, where they came from is just trivia and irrelevant to the application and exercise of those Rights.

There are two very important characteristics about Natural/Equal Rights that are absolultely mandatory to the entire Philosophy and, yes, even achieving stable Freedom:

(1) Regardless of where they come from, Rights are INHERENT to the Individual by virtue of their very Existence. We can argue about the origin of that Existence all day long, but we can still agree that Men have Rights by virtue of their Existence.

(2) They are absolutely universal. What is NOT universal is the ACKNOWLEDGMENT of their existence AND/OR the degree of Freedom granted to EXERCISE them. For instance, some would say that Canadians do not have the Freedom of Speech because it is not expressly granted in their Constitution. Properly understood, however, one understands that Canadians do, indeed, HAVE the Freedom of Speech. What they lack is the Freedom to fully EXERCISE that Right.

re: sam allen
"... My point is that whether you talk about morality or rights if you want them to be universal and to have force outside of just opinion they have to be grounded in something other than the natural world..."

>>

Why? What better OBJECTIVE case can be made than that of the Natural World which we can observe and discover through right reason? Indeed, I would argue that you have it backwards. By looking to the Supernatural... that which by definition we CANNOT observe and discover through right reason... you open the entire can of worms of "my book says", "no MY book says", "no MINE say!"

THAT is the difference between Divine Law and Natural Law, and THAT is why Divine Law should remain a matter of conscience, to be accepted and applied by each individual according to their own consciences, NOT by the police power of government.

The Sky Isn't Falling
I have 2 friends who have been teachers for 15-20 years who have just left teaching because of the immorality, vulgarity, lack of respect, fear of the students and lawsuits. There is a grave teachers shortage in the Phoenix area.
The sky isn't falling......yet.
D. Jimenez
Mesa, AZ

re: sam allen
"... Why is enmity bad? ..."

>>

You stated that you could make an argument that, "... becoming Stalin, Mao, or a billionaire drug lord would be better for [you] personally". Creating enmity in a rise to such a rank makes it so that they are less cooperative and amenable. The chance of resistance and opposition is higher and you would have to expend far greater resources to (a) enforce compliance and (b) stifle opposition.

Without getting into some semantic debate about the definition of "better for", I answered quite simply and in the general. Generally speaking, peaceable cooperation produces the greatest results with the least effort. In short, it is more efficient and, therefore, more productive.

Enmity produces less effective and less efficient results. Thus from a more objective standard of Cost versus Reward, peaceable cooperation produces better results than force and compulsion. Erego, you would actually be BETTER off, personally, achieving power, wealth, influence, etcetera through free enterprise than tyranny.

re: sam allen
".... Further, you assume that Stalin and Mao, et. all had these feelings or paranoia. How do you know..."

>>

Um. I observe the evidence.

Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Sadam Hussein, Castro, et al, surround(ed) themselves with layers of bodyguards and safegaurds, more so, even, than our own Presidential Security precautions. They even go/went so far as to have body doubles/impersonators, mutiple residences, etcetera in order to confuse would be assassins of their actual whereabouts.

To a man, each one's regimes have/had heavy-handed secret police organizations to monitor and grind out any hint of insurrection, and rebellion. Opposition were sent to reducation camps. Etcetera.

Their actions demonstrate the degree of their paranoia. It goes/went far beyond basic security.


re: sam allen
"... Is life always grand for everyone in a society run on equal rights?..."

>>

Nope. Freedom includes the freedom to fail. The difference is that in a Free Society, under a system built around Equal Rights, people are recognized as Sovereign Individuals and with the freedom and authority to choose for themselves. Under any other system, the individual is assumed to BELONG TO... be the property of... the State.

-----

"... You assume that one is better than the other without first grounding why some things are better than others..."

>>

You'll please excuse me for thinking that some things are readily apparent and don't need 2,000 words to spell them out, but...

I refer you back two posts (of mine). Peaceable cooperation and free enterprise always produces better results faster than coercion and force. From a bottom-line, Cost versus Reward analysis, it is more profitable to cooperate in free exchance.

re: Fabius Cunctator
"To:Liberty First:Deceptive & Wrong"

>>

Nope. Neither deceptive, nor wrong. That's strike three...

-----

"... We were talking about laws relating to morality which may or may not restrict your notion of liberty..."

>>

Again. Reading comprehension is KEY. I never once said that laws do NOT restrict or cannot restrict Liberty nor did I argue that laws cannot be used to impose or enforce morality. I have argued two things:

1 ) That the notion that some things are illegal (eg: murder) BECAUSE they are immoral is a fallacy. They are illegal BECAUSE they are assaults against the Equal Rights of Others.

2 ) It is NOT appropriate, in a Free Society, to base Law on morality BECAUSE morality is too subjective of a measure.

re: Fabius Cunctator
"... You originally used the phrase 'PROPER limits'..."

>>

And I DEFINED those proper limits (on my liberty) as the Equal Rights of Others.

-----

".... In your response above, you expanded the basis of the original argument to include laws about activities not related to morality to make it appear that you defeated my original rebuttal of your idea of liberty; using deception in order to fool TH viewers and appear to be a champion to your fellow amoral-pseudo-Libertarians..."

>>

Liar. You accused me of contradicting myself, saying that, "[My] 'PROPER limits' are the laws that restrict [my] subjective ideas about [my] liberty and [my] freedom..."

YOU tried to redfine MY term to refer to Laws. To refute YOUR gross misrepresentation of what I wrote AND your false claim, I cited a number of Laws that are NOT based in defense of Other's Equal Rights. Indeed, the justification for nearly every one of those Laws that I cited is, INDEED, founded in morality [so you lie again by saying they are not related to morality].


re: Fabius Cunctator
"... Please reserve your snotty remarks about my reading comprhension for your bar room buddies or for your 6th grade st."

>>

So long as you continue to misrepresent what I've written... argue with things I have NOT written... and, generally, demonstrate nominal aptitude for readin comprehension, then I will continue to call you on it.

re: Fabius Cunctator
"... Please reserve your snotty remarks about my reading comprhension [sic] for your bar room buddies or for your 6th grade st."

>>

So long as you continue to misrepresent what I've written... argue with things I have NOT written... and, generally, demonstrate nominal aptitude for reading comprehension, then I will continue to call you on it.

Out of wedlock births
may be down but how high is the abortion rate?
Divorce may be down but so is the rate of marriage. Can't get divorced if you don't get married.

Right On Stossel!
As always, I admire and respect your realistic take on a controversial situation. As much as the far left scares me, the far right terrifies me. They actually want to legislate sexual morality even if it means censorship and spreading lies. Those people that sent you hate mail John? They're just scared because they don't don't see the big picture. They don't look at the world with an objective set of eyes.

As always I am disgusted by the Family Research Council. These people scare me with the way they try and spread their agenda. They actually ignore data that is contrary to their positions. How hypocritical can you be?

Keep at it Stossel! You're still the best this site has to offer!